The Sean McDowell Show - Escaping a Pseudo-Christian Polygamous Cult (w/ Naomi Wright)

Episode Date: May 8, 2024

Naomi Wright is the daughter of a pseudo-Christian cult leader. She was raised, yet hidden, within mainstream culture and public school education, where no one knew or the few with a sense of something, stayed silent. Now she holds a Master's of Science in Social Work from the University at Buffalo and is a licensed mental health professional in the state of Colorado. She also holds a Master of Arts in Christian Studies from Denver Seminary. Her areas of speciality include grief and loss, spiritual abuse, including cult abuse, as well as biblical and theological studies. SUBSCRIBE: beEmboldened on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPSnkK3zLp0nK__Tdp9ZDRQ) READ: Be Emboldened with Naomi Wright (https://www.beemboldened.com/naomi-wright) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for $100 off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: @sean_mcdowell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org

What was it like to grow up in a polygamous, pseudo-Christian cult, and yet feel the need to hide from your friends and peers as you attend a public school? I had a bunch of siblings, there were 16 of us in total, from four different moms. This was something we had to hide. Our guest today is Naomi Wright, Executive Director of Be Emboldened Ministries, which is committed to helping people recover from religious abuse. What gave her the confidence to question the world she grew up in and finally leave at 28 years old? As you will soon see, she has a powerful story that needs to be heard and needs to be shared.

Naomi, thanks for coming on. I have really been looking forward to this conversation. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to share it. It's an honor to get to. Well, let's jump right into your story and maybe tell us a little bit about your family, what it was like growing up. So my family was, well, in one word, complex or complicated, but to me it was normal i had a bunch of siblings there's 16 of us in total from four different moms my dad practiced polygamy and we believed that kind of based on the old testament it was taken as being more of a prescriptive element versus a descriptive element of the ot and so it's like this is how it's supposed to be. Not everyone has to, it wasn't a requirement, but it was definitely available to the men who wanted to. And my dad certainly wanted to. And so there were other women that he had been

married to throughout his life and throughout me being alive. So other women I know of, but four women that he actually had children with. And we were not living anywhere off the grid though. So this was something we had to hide. So I'm in public school. My mom works for the superintendent of the entire school district. And we're having to act like none of this is going on. Not all of us lived in the same state and that did help. But when people would visit, we'd have to say that they were cousins or aunts and uncles, if it was other wives or things like that. And we basically tried not to stand out any more than we already were going to because we had holiness standards. So I had the long hair to the back of my knees and

couldn't wear pants and those sorts of things that were just really obvious. But the polygamous aspect was definitely one of the most defining aspects of me growing up and created this real sense of duplicitous living. Because if anyone found out, we were told the world wouldn't understand. My dad could go to jail and he was considered to be the prophet of the hour, quote unquote. And so like we couldn't allow that to happen. Okay. That's really helpful. Maybe tell us a little bit more about your dad because he seems to be the pivotal figure here in your life and also in this cult. He was, yeah, he was the person, he was the guy. So the belief was there would always be a prophet on the earth at one time there was always one but there was also only one and so our belief system was that my dad was

that one for that time period however he was likened to like a john the Baptist figure, where he was going to be the last one before Jesus returned. And so he and the generation, his generation, that older generation, they were not going to die. So that was never on our radar as something we were going to have to deal with. We weren't going to have to deal with that kind of grief. So everyone was going to live on and we were going to walk into the new heavens and the new earth together. So yeah, my dad was the person that you wanted to please. You wanted his approval. Did you grow up in the Northwest, in Utah, in the Northeast? What region are we talking about?

Utah would have been easier, but no, I grew up in New York of all places, which is like New York, California. Those wouldn't be ideal places for a group like this. So yeah, New York, California. Those wouldn't be ideal places for a group like this. So yeah, New York was tough. Okay, so it sounds like you lived with a lot of fear that people would find out that your dad could be arrested. So that was kind of a fear from the outside, so to speak, that you felt the need to protect the way you dressed, the way you talked, etc. What was your dad like apart from his theological position and the cult in the home? He was pretty abusive. So people are a mix. There was some good.

There were some things about him that I appreciate. When I look back, I appreciate things like his generosity. He was very giving, supporting of others. And in a group that has a lot of other dynamics, when I go back to its roots, he was not the same as some of those who came before him in ways where I'm appreciative. And yet he was a highly abusive man. He had a really bad temper and came by it honestly his dad was worse than he was from what he told us and from what we saw when we met him but he yeah he had a really bad temper and so he was psychologically abusive emotionally abusive definitely physically abusive lots of head trauma getting our heads whacked together getting thrown

into walls we had a brick house so getting whacked into the brick on the side of the house and you just never knew when it was going to happen it was very much as based on his mood at the time and he could turn so quick and so it's like okay be as small and be as quiet as possible draw as little attention as possible i used to literally read a book a day and i was still in school and was doing well in school like it was just like i'm just gonna sit here and read and be quiet and try to stay out of the way so he's very volatile man in a very unpredictable environment and he also would come and go because he had families in other states we were not all in the same area like i mentioned so he would leave and we'd get to breathe but then we never knew when he was going to come back

and so i have this very strong memory where my brother and i would be riding the school bus and it would be going around the block and it always passed by like our street because it would circle around and so we'd see our driveway before we were going to circle around to get dropped off and we'd always look to see if his car was in the driveway and if we saw his car in the driveway we just went like terror inside and then we didn't know how long he'd stay because one morning he would just wake up and be like okay i'm leaving and he would leave wow okay so you described different families so you said 16 siblings is this i think you said four wives or did i mishear that like was that correct was there four four moms who had there were more wives over time gotcha four moms okay so were there four homes he's navigating in between like break down what that was like for him

yes there were different homes so like someone one the wives, there was also a huge age gap, like concerning age gap. So two of the women that he married, I believe they were 17, 18 years old when he married them. still living with her mom when they got married. So but there were these different houses. And so, yeah, he would. And he also had his own space and kind of a bachelor pad where there was another single man who owned the home and they set up the upstairs to be kind of like his own space. So he had his own place, but then he'd also go stay. It was different when he was in New York because that central hub was actually in ohio in central ohio and so when he came to new york he was always with us because we were the one place for him to be in new york so we got him full time when he was in

our state oh gotcha okay so how how are people following him if he's not in one location consistently like when you typically think of a cult it it's like four, five, six days, 10 hours a day dominating the time. People are separated from the world, sometimes moving to a compound. Like how did this work for you, given that it doesn't seem to line up with how it often does in my understanding? Yeah, it kind of makes me laugh because you're probably going to get a kick out of some of this too. So because it's just absurd. We knew what he did and didn't approve overall. And so you kind of knew that and he made it clear like this is what's not going to be okay while I'm gone. This is what's expected while I'm gone.

Very gossipy group of followers. So people are going to drive by. They're going to be paying attention. They're going to love to turn you in if they catch you doing something wrong. The absurdity part that makes me laugh is when I was a teenager and I'd be like wanting to spend the night at a friend's house or something like that. I think that was around the time when like fax machines were a thing where you could just start getting them for your own home. And so literally a fax machine got set up in our kitchen and i would have to fax him to ask permission to go stay at a friend's house and like wait for that like awful sound that it made to see it because he might not even get it he could be staying at one of his wife's house

and like i don't even know if he's gonna see it wait for a response but it was actually better than having to call him because it's way less intimidating to you know like even now like send a test text message versus a phone call yeah but that's that's how far it went like is I'm gonna fax my father in another state to get permission to go stay at a friend's house that's really interesting okay so what about other followers outside of the family? Was he like pastoring a church? Was this a movement? Like explain where the other followers were, given that he's moving around all the time. Yeah, so the followers were primarily, there was a group of us in Western New York. There was a larger group in central ohio and then there were some people down in i can't remember honestly if it was arizona or arkansas because he and my mom went sometimes i never went

but i would say predominantly between that like central ohio moving up into western new york and we would gather wherever he was in town. We would gather Saturday evenings for a service in someone's home. And then it would be a different home on Sunday mornings. And so those were our two services, Saturday nights and Sunday mornings. There wasn't like a midweek or anything like that. So wherever he was, that's where people would gather. People were also staying connected in between. So like I remember getting like hand-me-downs from girls who were older and I would spend Christmas break and summer break, you know, people would travel

back and forth and visit each other and stay for a few weeks at a time. So there definitely was still a sense of connectedness overall, but there were also gaps of time with us again being in New York in terms of the family where we weren't doing a lot of gathering outside of when he was there partially though because there was this period of time like in this is a strong memory I have I was 14 and something was going on I can't remember what it would have been at the time actually you know what I was 14 I was born in 85. Y2K. Would have been 1999. That's what was going on. There you go. So 1999 is going on. We're a doomsday apocalyptic group. I mean, we're getting all the canned goods,

right? So we started traveling every single weekend, the four and a half hours. After I get out of school, we'd get in the car, we'd drive to Ohio so we could be there for those two Bible studies, as we called them, drive back, go back to school on Monday. So people would also travel to follow where he was going to be so that they wouldn't miss the studies. And they were recorded. They were transcribed. They were recorded, things like that. Okay, so on your site, the term that you used was a pseudo-Christian cult.

What are some of the things that it holds in common with just kind of historic Christianity? Where are some of the areas where it becomes a cult, theologically speaking, and just moves outside of orthodoxy, so to speak? A similarity is we did use a legitimate Bible. Now, what we did with it was certainly problematic, but we did use, it was a King James only group.

So it was KJV only. And I did learn about Jesus. Like I did believe, this is where it gets tricky. And I'm hoping this like, I mean, I hope it doesn't resonate with anyone, but for anyone who's had, you know, been in a high control group, this might resonate with them.

When you're the child of the leader, it's way more about pleasing your dad and pleasing the leader when you're living in their household than it is about some of the other doctrinal stuff, especially if you're getting thrown into walls and things like that yeah so so theologically i was taught that jesus was our lord and savior however there was a guy named william brenham who died in a car accident in 1965 who's a part of what is like our current kind of nar situation that we have going on and what do you mean by NAR? vein early on when this was kind of more so getting going. And he had what was considered a healing ministry. And I say what was considered that because we don't know how many healings actually took place. But he was pretty nasty towards women. Racially, there were a lot of issues. And looking back at his teachings, there was like serpent seed teaching, which would be that Adam and Eve, really Eve had intimate relations with the serpent. And Cain was a byproduct of that intimate relationship. And that's how we get it's

totally racist. It's absolutely disgusting. William Brennan was a proponent of this belief. So I was taught serpent seed growing up. And so that's a problem. But William Brenham, the reason I brought him up is because even though my dad was such a spinoff of the message is what it's called. Brenhamism, the message, which is huge right now. It's still in an international ministry. My dad used to sing in some of the revival meetings because he had an excellent singing voice well when he started wanting to engage in polygamy he got kicked out of the message he actually had gone up and down like the east coast and was like pretty in a nasty way like no you can't do this and they kicked him out so he then started his own spinoff he then turned around and said William Brenham was Jesus's second coming

and the world sort of missed it like he was rejected the first time he's been rejected the second time so now my dad like is that like I said kind of John the Baptist figure before Jesus is going to come the third time and literally I grew up like on our wall in the living room, those like big 11 by 14 images. There was one of Jesus, one of Jesus beside it was one of William Brenham. And beside that was one of my dad. They were all three lined up together. Wow. That is so, so interesting. Okay. So you've described some of the feelings you had growing up that was just maybe felt a little bit like an outcast compared to some of the other friends in society. A little bit, obviously fear was a big piece of this. Just the physical abuse, what that does to

somebody. Growing up in this home, feeling the need to hide, but having these just painful emotions and not feeling like you can talk with anybody, what were some of the coping mechanisms you just turned to literally to survive in this kind of environment? I'm going to answer this in a couple different age brackets because I think it's important to know how it changes when we have other options available to us. When I was young, the best option I had was, well, two things. One, just be as quiet and out of the way as possible, be as obedient as I could.

I got very observant, trying to gauge what's going on in the room, what facial expressions, like really getting hyper vigilant and hyper alert so that I could try to keep myself safe and protected. The other coping mechanism, which is not uncommon at all, especially for kiddos is to begin to have a dissociative disorder. And I mean, like I'm disconnecting from myself, all of my memories, I can see myself in them. I'm not present actually in my body. I am kind of flying outside of it. Again, really common for kiddos where it's like they can't actually remove themselves from the situation. And so what they can't, they can't physically and so what we can do is emotionally and mentally, we can disconnect from the situation. So I did a lot of that. Then as I got older, still kept some of those to a degree. But I started doing other

forms of distraction. So got really, really busy. So I just, you know, would be gone as much as possible. And started drinking. I think the first time I drank, I was 15. And that got more heavy as I got a bit older, between like 17 to probably like early 20s. And then promiscuity, I found myself in this place where I had I had never been taught that I had any, any value as a person. And I had not been taught that I had value, especially being a female. So this was an incredibly patriarchal group. Women were called hogs and deceivers. And we were just, women were terrible. They could not be trusted.

So I was distrusted by my own father as a very young girl, like six, seven, eight years old. It was like, well, even if I wanted to give him a hug why are you giving me a hug like what are you trying to manipulate me for and so that was the attitude towards girls and so i really grew up with this total lack of my identity in christ and the worth and value that i have and any sort of sense of agency to say no to something that i'm not interested in and so that definitely set me up for some choices that I, I regret. As I got older, it also landed me with a pretty serious eating disorder in my 20s. That lasted for probably about five to six years. It's pretty violently so I was pretty violently bulimic. And that was that came out, I don't know what to do with any, I don't know what to do. Like I, I feel things, I have no idea what to do with it. I had no emotional maturity, no ability to know

how to process anything. So that's, that's sort of the journey I went on. So it's not like it went from not great to better, but then as I kept going, started healing and, you know, we'll get to that and it improved. Yeah, we definitely will. I can't wait to get to the part of your story coming through this. Help me understand, how did you, so it's a pseudo-Christian cult. So you believed you were the true Christians. And if so, how did you view other Christians? And I mean broadly, whether Catholic, Protestant, anybody else who takes that label.

How did you view them and why? I viewed them as deceived. Yeah, they were not saved. And that's a significant marker of not only my story, but groups like this, is that we're the ones that actually have it right. Now, I do hear that there's some groups where other people, maybe they'll still make it to heaven. And so that's still possible. And ours, they weren't saved. No one else was going to make it to heaven. It was just going to be us. And so the group was going to grow. That was a belief we held to very strongly

was more people were going to come from other countries and things like that and the group was going to grow okay so last question about this were you supposed to read your bibles share your faith go on mission trips like how was this going to grow what were the outward focus you know kind of emphases of the message that's the name right you said the message that's the group my dad spun off from so i i wouldn't yeah i wouldn't fully put it in that category i think there's enough differences that it kind of stands on its own but if someone wanted to get more background of like where maybe the roots were they could look up the message but it wasn't as missional this was one of the things that kind of tugged on a thread for me as I was hitting like say 18, 19 years old, there were a couple things that I was like, well,

how big is our God? If, um, one of them was, we weren't very missional and I didn't see that in scripture. I'm like, we're supposed to go tell people and we're not telling people. And like, I'm kind of afraid to tell people because i just don't know how that's going to be handled and so it felt really scary and really risky and i'd also been told like not to tell people so much of what we believed so how do i tell people but not tell all these other pieces so that was confusing so that was one of those first threads that were pulled but we weren't a super missional group. People would be brought in by close relationships, whether it be someone was getting married. And so like the partner was going to come into it or someone was chatting with someone at work and they decided to come check

it out. But it was very like quiet sort of underground, slow growth. And the goal wasn't so much about recruitment. It definitely was, yes, read our Bibles ourselves, make sure that we're equipped and we're prepared. The children are getting discipled as they should be within this group. And people are going to come. God's going to send people from other countries. There was a big emphasis on people coming from Africa specifically. Oh, that's interesting. Do we know why?

What was it from Africa? I think there was this perception of, which may have been more true at the time, just the country being less churched, being more unchurched. And so kind of like people are going to come. But the part that didn't make sense was like, we weren't sending missionaries over there or anything. So I don't know how that was going to happen. So it was just like, they're just going to appear, I guess. That makes sense. So you are working on your second master's, master's in counseling. You're working on a master's in theology, obviously a bright person. I can imagine someone looking at this going, wait a minute. So there's polygamy in this cult and it's terrible for women. Your dad's like the modern day John the Baptist. It has these

beliefs that you now look at. And a couple of times where like, it almost makes me laugh looking back. I think there's a lot of people that can't understand why that would be so compelling. And some would believe that in the first place. Walk us through what that was like for you and help people understand from the outside looking in, trying to make sense of it. Sure. Well, two different angles on this. First, being born into it. When we're raised in something, we're taught to trust our parents that they've got our best interest at heart, even if we're like, okay, like they make mistakes or they it's just considered normal.

Like that's what we start to see as normal. And that's one major way that people can stay in these things as long as they do. And yet people also do get pulled into it. And whenever I hear stories from others where they ended up in something as an adult, as a teenager, an adult, young adult, whatever it is, I've had people who started getting involved in something in their 80s, Sean. So I mean, this can be like any demographic. There's a need that the person has and the group is offering.

It's basic marketing principle. They're offering a solution and they're doing it in a compelling way. And so that person is then intrigued. And again, it's speaking to something that they're missing out on. And I think it really speaks to the importance of knowing how to read our Bibles ourselves and being well-rooted so that we can recognize when what we're being offered isn't actually truth. So this is a relational need. This is a meaning need. These are like the existential questions.

People are willing to embrace something that on its surface, if they thought about it, would realize this is almost certainly not true. But these deeper human needs, it's meeting. Okay. So did you have any doubts growing up about this? Or was it like, this is true, but my concern is just how to navigate given that it's true? Or looking back, do you see times where like, you know what, actually not sure I really believed that? i totally believed it but when i look back i knew i'm going to give an example my dad being abusive my mom told us my brother and i that he was abusive because he was supposed to be he had the spirit of elijah and so he would you know and so this is like, so I thought God the Father was terrifying.

But I knew that there was something else to God because there were these moments, like I don't think I've ever shared this anywhere, but there's a song on Pete's Dragon. I don't know. Do you know this movie? I love that movie. Yeah, I loved gee once a kid huh okay so candle on the water mm-hmm every time I would hear that song I would tear up because I believed that was God speaking to me that he was the light and he was telling me to just hold on and that he was going to lead me out. And I believed that from a young age,

eight, nine, 10 years old. And like, how did I, I knew that there was, there was something different about his character that I wasn't being shown and I wasn't being taught. And I knew it through beauty. I would have these moments right before I would have to go knock on my dad's door to tell him dinner was ready, which was a scary thing to do because you don't want to make them emerge. You don't know what's going to happen. And I would sit on my bed. We had this beautiful maple tree in the backyard and the sun would be starting to set behind it. And just seeing the light rays come through the leaves and having the window open, we had a lilac bush back there. I would smell that coming through. I would hear the leaves rustling. And I just felt such a peace that

didn't make sense for the turmoil of my household. And I knew that this was the Lord. I knew that there was something more. And yet I was holding this contradiction. I didn't know what to do with it. So I think through God's kindness, I was seeing some of him. I was getting to know him in some way, starting from childhood. But as I got older and I saw like a couple of contradictions, like how I had mentioned like, well, we're not missional and it looks like we should be. There was also a lot of fear of leaving the area. So like when I wanted to travel internationally, I studied abroad in Australia for six months.

I wanted, you know, I was doing these things. There was a lot of fear about leaving the area because if the rapture came, I could be missed. I'm like, well, if God doesn't know where I'm at, we got a problem. Some of those things came up, but not to the degree where I thought, okay, this isn't true. I just thought we might not be doing it as right as we should be. Like maybe there's some room for improvement. There's some human error there. It wasn't until my parents died, having been taught that they could not and would not die that I'm like, what do I do with this? Okay. Let's, so let's, let's jump into that. I think you said your father died first, if I heard correctly. So yet your theology was

he's not going to die. So maybe kind of walk us through what happened and how it affected you. My dad died when I was 21. His health started to decline probably in September. And my mom, he was in Ohio. He died in Ohioio my mom traveled to be with him she was sort of his primary wife if i could call it that she was closest in age she was kind of that and the first one he married into a polygamous relationship so she was kind of a primary wife and so she went to stay with him very hush hush though we had no idea how badly he was doing we no clue so I went down to celebrate New Year's with friends there happened to stop by to see them and immediately called my brother and said for all intents and purposes dad is dying I know he's not I know it's not supposed to happen

but it looks like like I don't know what to say I just think you should come. And I was so sure though, that he wasn't actually going to die that I went back home on a Saturday night, got in super late. It was probably technically Sunday morning after midnight. So confident that he wasn't actually going to die. He died at noon that Sunday. So he was that close. And, but we were so convinced that there was going to be a miracle and that he was going to continue on. But he died at home. Absolutely no medical care. He actually had made himself a doctor's appointment finally for that Monday. Obviously didn't make it to that appointment.

And we didn't really believe in medical care. We didn't really believe like, okay, if it's God's will, it will be. If it's not God's will, it won't be. And so he, yeah, he passed away there in my mom's arms and it was absolutely horrific. It was awful. Yeah, so sorry that it went down that way. So that was one of the first things

that's rocking your thinking. Yet you're 21, leave at 28. There's still seven years in between there. How did that affect you? And then you also mentioned your mom passing. So what happened in between and then what happened with your mom and how did it affect you? Seven years is a long time and it was a it wasn't this the sudden moment where i'm like i'm fully mentally out was at 28 when i realized it had been a cult but i had started in ways sort of

coming out at 14 when i started like trimming my hair and changing in the pants in the bathroom and but i i was in a lot of turmoil i thought i was dishonoring God so it was more of a I wasn't really feeling rebellious I was feeling scared but I wanted to fit in so it was kind of that struggle and then by 21 I I had married outside of the group which was significant but my dad had been at my wedding had given me away um we didn't necessarily support legal marriage so all this was a really big deal that i had done any of those things at 21 then my dad passes away and immediately literally that same day i was one of the first people who said it he had told us of all of these dreams that he had had he had been saying them for years that's why I have a I love talking to people about dreams if that I see I there's a big uh thread and people who have

been in groups like this where they've had dreams that have kept them in things that they should not have stayed in they were unbiblical um so there's definitely a theme there of how dreams can be manipulated but against us but he had all these dreams where he went away for a while and then he came back and everyone had dispersed and so we're like oh my goodness this is that dream fulfilled he's gone away for a while he's going to come back and so we need to stay put and so literally sean that's what everyone did like no one would move this was for over a decade he died in 2007. the whole group just moved like three years ago so we're taking a really long time people stayed put they had storage units filled with like books and tapes

for the people that were going to come the initial belief was that he was put back into like a young body in africa and was preaching and teaching was going to send people over so that kept people holding on now my mom also there was some numerology aspects to the group and so she started tracking on the calendar like he was i like we waited three days to have him cremated because he was going to be raised like that kind of thing so we get to three days okay now we're going to move forward with services we get to seven my mom's literally tracking for three and a half years on the calendar she's totaling up the days with all these ideas of like what number it will be symbolically that he'll return until three and a

half years later she dies and that is what really undid me because my mom was my world at that. I mean, she had been the one sense of safety that I did have growing up, even though she had not protected me from my dad, she had bought into the belief system. She never actually was okay with that. Like she, she was not abusive. she wanted to make it the best it could be she cried with me she so again i hope you hear that both and i'm not excusing a parent staying in something where their children are getting abused and yet i also understand the cult mindset particularly when it's connected with jesus and eternal life and the weight that that carries and how that messes with people and so for her to die I'm like and for her to die the way she did

she was unmedicated again I worked in hospice for years after that no no hospice support no anything to watch her just dwindle away to nothing she was absolutely in pain it was it was horrific experience and to go through that and be like Lord I mean if this is your will but like what do I what do I do with this and how do I move on and now where do I go for truth because I don't have either parent now and that set me off in a direction of trying to to find what truth actually was. Okay. So now you're 24, 25.

What did that truth pursuit look like? Reading books, talking with people, like walk us through that little journey up until when you're about 28. Well, I don't know if you were doing this yet, Sean, but I definitely didn't find your channel in time. So what year was this, by the way? This would have been my mom passed in 2010. Okay. All right. Gotcha. So she died in September of 2010. And then I was finishing up my first

master's degree. And so I was doing this one year advanced program. So I'm like, I'm just, I'm going to stick with it. I had actually, my dad had died right when I was doing this one year advanced program so I'm like I'm just I'm gonna stick with it um I had actually my dad had died right when I was starting that master's for the first time and I had dropped out and so three and a half years later I'm like I'm just I'm gonna stay in it I'm gonna finish it so I stayed and I finished the degree and I just had to get out of the town I was like I just need to not be here I was educated and aware enough to know that I couldn't run away from everything that was going on inside, but I knew I needed a change of scenery. So I wound up in Colorado, literally drove cross country with what fit in my little first generation Prius, no air conditioning, making it work. Arrived there, I was couch surfing. I was sleeping in my car, got a job,

using my master's degree, which was great, got a housemate, started to kind of get on my feet. Through all of this, I was incredibly isolated. So my preferred coping mechanism at that time had been distraction. Like I was constantly meeting with friends, constantly doing things. So I was like totally at a standstill. I didn't know anyone. The bulimia got worse, drinking got worse. So other behaviors increased because of the lack of distraction. But while I was going through this, I had, I was going through the most intense anxiety, the most oppressive state, all of these coping mechanisms, again, that were not that were serving me in one regard, but really hurting me

severely in other regards, those were at their peak. And yet I simultaneously had this strong sense of peace. It just doesn't make sense. I had this strong sense of peace that if I stop distracting and I actually go through this, this is going to be temporary and I'm not going to be in this place forever and I knew it was God I knew that that was God and so then I'm trying to figure out okay but my dad was kind of like my God he was like my prophet so I'm gonna try like what would he be telling me to do what should I do here so I headed more in a new age direction started getting Reiki done starting look started looking at like animal cards tarot like some of that kind of stuff that got really dark really

fast and so stepped out of that started going into a church and that was a big deal because i was not supposed to go into an actual church building non-denominational mainstreamed not any of that because they weren't saved right like that's what i believed and so i remember standing outside of a church for the first time and i literally i was no doubt i was dissociating at that time but i remember speaking to god and saying lord please know my heart i am genuinely trying to find you and so if this is not where you are please have mercy on me i didn't know if i was going to walk into that building and if it was going to go up in flames like for real and so i started going to church and i was so rocked by every service that i could only go once every three to four weeks because it was so much in one sermon okay so when you say rocked, what was it about it that rocked you?

They were talking about love and grace. And then I was starting to try to open my Bible, which is very hard to do. My Bible used to like haunt me from my nightstand drawer because I was, I didn't know what to do with it. And it was, uh, talk about like the idea of like a trigger or something for people have experienced trauma. was a lot of trauma that i had lived through that had the bible had been used to create now the bible wasn't actually the problem it was the people but i didn't know that at the time and i didn't know how to split that apart and so i just didn't know what to do with it and so i couldn't get myself to read it but when i was going in to the church i'm seeing people sing and it's genuine and i'm hearing about god's love and his grace and who he is and i'm starting to

like look at the verses at least that they were referencing like that felt like i could handle and i'm like okay it doesn't really say this in here like whoa whoa whoa like i've been taught fire and brimstone and wrath and doomsday and all this stuff. I know I've heard here and there that, like, God loves, but I don't think I had ever, like, really heard the gospel. And even today when people ask, like, oh, do you know when you were saved? I'm like, I don't really know. I'll count when I got baptized a year after the story I'm telling you. But I'm like, I'm not really sure. I don't really know. I'll count when I got baptized a year after the story I'm telling you. But I'm like, I'm not really sure.

I don't really know. But that's when I'm like, I'm going to go with that when I was actually baptized because I was 27. And I'm like, because that's where I had a truer sense of who Christ actually is and said yes to him. But it was a road. Yeah, it sounds like it. So you have interest in apologetics on some level. Your ministry is primarily focused elsewhere. But were those, did you have to work through some apologetic questions to become a Christian? Or is it just like the message so sunk in your soul that you just knew it was true when you started to hear it?

So I knew it was true when I started to hear it but the reason I was 28 when it clicked for me that it was a cult and I was able to drop the rest of the theology and the doctrine Was that only happened? After I spent a couple of years trying to hold it all and so i'm going to church and i'm like i said being really really affected by it and being really impacted by it and at the same time i'm thinking but they don't know all this like they don't know the rest of the story and it wasn't in an arrogant way and i'm not saying it can't be because there's a lot of arrogance that goes with this it was more in a desperation way of just needing to find people

and needing to feel like I had some sense of home and some sense of belonging. So I still was leading that duplicitous split kind of life where I'm like, I can't share any of this with people because no one's going to get it. And I don't even know what to do with it at this point because they died and they weren't supposed to die. And so there was a lot of turmoil wrapped up in that and so that's where like i said i believe that i had a truer sense of who jesus really was and accepted him as my lord and savior and was baptized in may of 20 or may um when i was 27 so three days before my birthday um but it wasn't until about a year later yeah where it clicked oh my goodness it was a cult that's why this isn't i can't reconcile this it doesn't make sense so when's your birthday in may

because i have a may birthday may 15. oh close may 17th is my birthday that's awesome definitely not the same year i've got you by a few so you would know this better than I do, but from one of the things that I understand is that sometimes just telling our story in writing and sharing is a part of the healing process. So you're hearing grace, you're coming to faith. Do you remember one of the first times in this kind of last two, three years of your life while you're going to church and kind of leaning towards becoming a Christian, where you remember opening up with somebody and kind of getting it off your chest, so to speak, and people just accepting and loving and not freaking out? Or was it just a few conversations that you had? It was a few conversations. So that church, that first

church I walked into, my best friend and my husband were going there. So I met both of them. Okay. All right. I know. And for anyone who's listening who's not tracking, the marriage I had where my dad had walked me down the aisle, unfortunately, that did not work out. So he made some other choices and chose to divorce and move on. But my husband now, we've been together for almost 11 years.

We met at this church that I started attending. Met my best friend there, who's still my best friend. And so those relationships started to offer some sense of security and safety where I was able to share a bit more and more just over time. I also had to understand what my story was myself. That's a huge part for anyone who is wanting to heal. We're like, what on earth even was that before I can start to talk about what I'm going to do about it and then what I'm going to do next and what I actually believe and how I'm going to live my life. And so there's really an order to it. And so I had to start making sense of what

on earth was all of that. How do I categorize it? Was there any truth in it what do i think about it um and through that process there just wasn't great this church was a good experience overall but there wasn't great discipleship it was a mega church it was massive and i was definitely needing stronger discipleship so was my husband and so we almost got caught up in a different kind of culty-like situation with a group of young adults and we decided that i was going to go to seminary instead praise god so i did um and so that was in 2015 fall of 2015 i started at denver seminary and there i had the that fall actually i had my first experience of sharing more really with someone um who was new to me and that was dr douglas groteis if you've heard of that guy um amazing yeah amazing so he he caught that i didn't

know some stuff that a lot of kids knew and uh in a rude way and i like hey like would you mind would you be comfortable sharing a little bit with me you know about what your story's been and really came alongside me and that was a very healing experience because talk about feeling like a fish out of water i mean me in a seminary class yeah was really tough i mean i was really starting i was starting like at a negative not even at ground zero and that was a I mean, that's where not everyone needs to go to seminary by any means, but I learn well in a classroom. I do well with structured education. It was a great fit for me. Finally graduated, had a baby, had a, you know, all the stuff that happens. Finally graduated this past August with that second master's degree. And yeah,

very strongly credit that with just feeling sound and solid and being equipped to be able to evaluate. That makes a huge difference. I got Doug's newest book sitting right here, and I've had him on the show a few times. He's been a friend for years, so I'm glad you ran into him and he had that influence in your life. That's awesome. But when people leave groups like, for example, Mormonism, they most do not become Christians. And again, I know there's a huge difference between what you're describing and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I actually had another guest on a while ago from kind of a fundamentalist Mormon cult from Utah. It was really interesting.

But most folks who leave do not come to Orthodox Christianity. And I think some of this, I'm curious if you agree, is you feel burned by religion, burned by authority. So why am I going to step into another religion and trust these authorities who took advantage of me? And maybe they can't separate, like you said, some of the abuse of the Bible from what the Bible really teaches within itself. You might have answered this, but why did you not become an agnostic or jettison religion? Why did you move from a pseudo-Christian cult into an orthodox,

lowercase o, kind of historic Christian faith? Because I knew God was real. some of those stories that i told are you know earlier in our conversation about just knowing that there was something about his character that was different that i just hadn't been taught yet and i i valued knowing what was true more than i valued it being easier and please know again, for anyone who's listening or watching, I please you're hearing some of my story. I'm not saying that lately. It's a lot easier to not do this. It's a lot. I mean, I've said before, in different conversations, like I don't wish being in a call on anyone or

anything like that, of course, and yet I don't wish being in a cult on anyone or anything like that, of course. And yet I don't wish leaving one on anyone either because it is an incredibly painful, long process, but we continue to make improvements. Like we continue to see progress and it's so incredibly rewarding and the fullness of life that is available to us and the freedom that is available to us in the truth of who Christ is 100% worth it. I truly would make this choice again, but it is a very difficult disentangling process. I mean, I think of it like thread that's all tangled up and you've got to

take a needle and you're just trying to like, you know, get, I don't know if anyone's done this. I was taught to sew as a little girl, but you're just trying to like get that knot undone. Or if a gold chain necklace, you know, gets a knot in it and it's so hard, it's a lot easier to just like throw something away or to cut off the knotted part and get rid of it than it is to actually go through that process. And so I think that has a lot to do with it. And when I say it so hard, I'm not only speaking to the mental aspect of it, because there's a lot of that theological stuff. Yes, I absolutely had apologetic related questions. Some of the arguments didn't affect me so much,

but things like God's character, things like the problem of evil, of course, was huge. So I had a lot of stuff to work through, who God actually was, his character, what's the point of community? Because do I have to give that another try? Because it did not go great the first time. So there's a lot of that mentally that's going on, a lot of work that needs to be done there but there's so much physiologically through real trauma that people experience in situations like this the wiring that had happened in my nervous system had to change i mean it i was basically i basically was raised for my brain to function in a certain way. Like different neuropathways are created at all times.

We have neuroplasticity, which thank the Lord for that because it's not permanent. We can change things. But the way I was already kind of wired, so to speak, I had to change a lot of that wiring. Like I said, walking into church and coming out of my skin when I was walking into church, I had to change that. Fear of other Christians, I had to change a lot of that wiring. Like I said, walking into church and like coming out of my skin when I was walking into church, like I had to change that. Fear of other Christians, I had to change that. Fear of the Bible, reading something other than a King's James, which I didn't have to, but it's easier for me to read a different version. And so like, can I actually do that and not come out of my skin doing that. And so there was a lot of that more kind of psychological, physiological aspect that was holding up the mental work I was doing. And so there's times where I had to slow down. Mentally, I might get somewhere, but emotionally, physiologically, I wasn't there yet. And so I'd have these really extreme like threat reflex response episodes where it's like, I can't, you know, like I have to step away from church for a while

or I have to step away from this for a while. But Lord, how do I engage you in other ways while I can't do something like that while I'm trying to heal and I'm getting support to do it. So there's just all these different aspects to it. And I think that's a really key part that can be missed sometimes is we can work through all the mental stuff, but there are other aspects to our personhood as God designed us that are going to need care too in order for us to really move forward. That's so helpful. I think we should read the Bible and pray and go to church, obviously, but sometimes as evangelicals, that's our response to everything. And it's a little too simplistic.

And what you're describing is there is relational and psychological and emotional and intellectual knots to untangle step by step. And that just takes time. That's gonna take time. Now, as much as you're comfortable sharing this, feel free to pass. But just having come from that background, you've obviously worked this through, have a great marriage today and kids, and you're helping other people work through this.

Are there still just kind of some wounds that remain, so to speak, like scars that God has forgiven that you feel like having this background might just always be with me to some level or not yeah i think there are i think i think the one that i will probably carry to some degree for the rest of my life is the sense of loss the sense of loss of like when I got pregnant with my son and my mom wasn't there, you know, sharing, he's six now, teaching him how to, he loves to cook. And so sharing a recipe that my mama taught me and knowing that I don't, you know, she's not here to be a part of that. And knowing that had we gotten her medical care, she very well could could have been she's only 64 when she passed and so things like that i think those losses like yeah those carry on and yet they don't totally undo me anymore they don't make me collapse they don't steal the joy that the lord has given me

they don't stop me from moving forward and that's something I just believe he offers to everyone. And I'm so grateful to be able to share about it in my life. I get to experience goodness. And yet, yeah, I'll still feel that sense of loss, that sense of grief. But again, not in a way where it's undoing me, just in a way where I'm aware that it's there. And I don't know that that'll ever fully be gone. I know that it would make sense that it would be. Why wouldn't that make sense? I don't know that it would make sense that I would ever stop missing her.

Gotcha. I think is how I put it, yeah. Yeah, that's totally fair. So I have not experienced very much church abuse or spiritual abuse at all. The last two to three years, I've studied it quite extensively for a range of reasons. And so I start to see things that I would not have seen before. And I wish I had 10, 20, 30 years ago. But I'm guessing because your training and your ministry, and just because of your experience,

that you're even more hyper-tuned into just the signs of spiritual abuse. When you look at the evangelical church as a whole do you think some of the scandals we've heard about recently whether it's pastors etc are these exceptions or do you look at the evangelical church and just say there's certain things and ways we do stuff that lends itself towards the kind of abuse that we see. Yeah, Sean, I think that's actually exactly how I would phrase it, is that there are, I think that there are some practices that we still have, not everywhere, but kind of generally speaking that we still have, that may be unwise because I think they can lend themselves to abuse, misuse, taking

advantage of exploitation in different forms. And so yeah, I think there's some things that would fall into that category where I think it would be wise to reevaluate and consider putting more checks and balances into place. Can you give me an elaborate? Yeah, just give us one or two examples of what you mean. Yeah, I think whenever I come across, because I've moved quite a bit too, and so we've needed to find new churches, and I love coming alongside others and helping them kind of navigate okay they're ready to step back in the church which is always really incredible to hear you know journey alongside people to the point where they're ready to do that and so they're like okay well now where do i go and i love helping to equip and educate and you know give people tools on how

to kind of check places out and look for a reasonable level of health in a church community and whenever i see too much focus um on a central leader i think that's it could go great i just wouldn't risk it i think it's too risky so i'm kind of mitigating risk here as well is how i think about it and how i talk about it with people there's always going to be some risk but we can we can mitigate that we can weigh it out and we can minimize the risk that we're going to run into and so when i see a structure within the church where we've got one person in power or we've got an elder board that's all the buddies because it was appointed by that one person who was in power i like to look at those sorts of things so how are we getting our leadership what checks and balances do they have um if they're a part of a conference does that conference

have real oversight or is it just sort of a you know they're on a list somewhere like how does that actually come into play um those are some key things i also encourage people to ask like to have a conversation with someone about what do they think about this idea of religious abuse because we do hear pushback that it's not real um that it's people who just don't like a sense of conviction and so they're upset and I'm not saying in certain areas that that doesn't happen but it's a very real actual problem too. And I know I've run into that in different conversations with different people where it's like, where it can be more dismissive of the issue. And that is a huge disservice for people like myself who have suffered and people

who don't have stories as, you know, maybe quote unquote extreme as mine, who are still really suffering and have really been hurt and desire to know who Jesus really is. And so I like to hear what church leadership thinks about issues like this, because if they're really dismissive, for an example, I had a pastor who was really concerned about what I do.

And I'm like, why are we so worried about it? Like this is, it happens. And I've got other churches who are like, oh my gosh, like come in and let's do some equipping for our congregation. Let's do some equipping for, cause we offer half day workshops and things. And so it's like, you can see these very different responses and I'm open to like, there might be just room for education and we need to have some conversations. And yet I want to know that there's an openness in return. And so that's kind of something I like to put out there too. So those are some things I just like to, again, equip others with and let's go ahead and check out those areas. But do I think that this is the norm? I know you had mentioned that with

like these kind of big scandals that we see in stuff when I think about how many churches There are here in the United States. I'm really hopeful that it's I feel very hopeful that it's not the majority I think there are wonderful churches out there doing wonderful things that I would absolutely encourage people to be a part of I Would agree with that too. I definitely that's been my experience I think the studies show that you know Michael Kruger who I saw that you interviewed on your YouTube channel, co-author john marriott who's also biola elizabeth urbanowitz went down the line so for people watching this we'll put a link below uh subscribe to your uh youtube channel which is called be emboldened the channel itself is that right tell us a little bit about emboldened b e emened. Tell us a little bit more about your ministry, if you will.

Sure. So it was founded on, I believe that it was time to share my testimony of what God's done for me. And so I came out with my story for the first time and continued to build it from there. So we decided to make it a 501c3. Like, okay, let's see what the lord wants to do with this and at this point we're three years as a 501c3 i think in may um and so we're on the younger side and yet it's been absolutely incredible to see the impact i was just at a wedding of a survivor yesterday just amazing things that we get to see people back in church, people finding the truth, people doing the

really, you know, the tough but so rewarding work. And we do that through a few key things right now. We offer mentoring services one-on-one and with groups where we come alongside people who have suffered again on that spectrum, not necessarily my story, but anything where they've been harmed in a church. And we also record digital courses. We just were in Atlanta the beginning of the month recording our next two. So we've got our Rebuilding After Religious Abuse course, helps people get their feet under them. And then we've got our next two courses, which is Can I? That's our top seven questions we get asked about God and Christianity. And then we've got our Rebuilding with Biblical Literacy. So how do we read and

apply the Bible when it's been used against us? It's been weaponized against us. So all of these conversations are being curated for this audience, for people who have had these kinds of experiences so that it is a safer, hopefully more accessible way with people who like get it. You know, it just can be nice to hear someone who like gets it who understands it in a unique way so offer those kinds of services um we've got our first conference actually that's going to be announced for next year we're starting to come

alongside churches which is really incredible and we desire to start helping other people who are doing really amazing work but don't feel super confident in this area of expertise so we're heading into creating curriculum and resources to help equip them too. So we can have people hopefully all over the world because we've got, we're serving clients right now on six different continents, which is absolutely incredible. And we want people on all those continents being able to come alongside others. Can I ask you one more question? We're pushing the time on this. But one thing I get asked is oftentimes people who are deconstructing and or deconverting have a lot of pain. some of the way religious leaders and the Bible has been used to oppress and hurt and harm them from what Jesus really taught and the Bible really says. What would you say to somebody who's just

in that kind of trap, so to speak, and is tempted, understandably so, to say, forget religion, forget the Bible. I just can't emotionally read it without being triggered about the way it's been you know used or abused for me what would you say to that person if i may i'd like to say something to that person and i'd like to say something to us and the opportunity that we have there so in response to that person i'm a a fighter, y'all. So, you know, it's like, not in like that kind of fight, but like, I, I'm gonna get gritty if I have to. And it's like, I'm going to stick with it. And I don't want the people who hurt me to have the final word. I want truth to have the final word. so please know i say this with so much compassion

and so much empathy try to find someone who's going to be able to get it and is going to be able to listen look first please don't give up because if you turn away from jesus and he really truly is the only one who can heal and can redeem you just lost everything and i was unwilling to take that risk and so i had to know and i'm so glad that i continue to seek and to find out and so that that would be my encouragement reach out to us reach out to someone else you know know, find someone who is safe and you think they're sound and just start, you know, we want to find someone to come alongside us. And for those who are on, whether it's a professional side, lame as any of us who are Christian who are in the church today, anyone from that angle where we're coming into contact

with someone like me 15 years ago, when somebody has experienced genuine trauma, we know that they need what's called a corrective experience. They need to have an experience that is contrary to the narrative that's been given to them. We have an amazing opportunity to be that corrective experience. So let's do that. Let's offer someone a different experience of who Christ, let's show who he really is. Let's offer that to them. Let's come alongside and let's know that it might be a long suffering kind of journey. It's probably going to take longer than we think, and it's probably going to take longer than that person suffering actually thinks as well. But again, there is hope and it is temporary and we will continue to see progress.

We continue to see forward motion just like I did in my life and I do in countless others at this point doing what I do through Be Emboldened. And so let's be the corrective experience and y'all who are like me, let's look for the corrective experience. Let's be open to what if it could be different? What if that's actually possible? Let's find out. Such a good answer. I'm so glad I asked you that. Check out BeEmboldened.com. Subscribe to the BeEmboldened YouTube channel for some great content about this and about apologetics. And while you're at it, make sure you subscribe here.

We've got some other incredible stories coming up, some former Muslims. We're going to talk about hellish near-death experiences and some other guests coming up you will not want to miss. And if you thought about studying apologetics, it was game-changing for you at Denver Seminary. We love what they're doing there. I teach full-time at Biola Talbot School of Theology. We would love to help train and equip you as well. Information is below. Fully distanced program. Naomi, this is a treat. Thank you for your courage for telling the story. I'm celebrating just the success of your ministry so far

and just pray God's hand of blessing on it for many years of fruitful ministry. Thanks for coming on. Thank you so much, Sean.