The Sean McDowell Show - Escaping The Occult, Finding Jesus (w/ Christopher Lind)

Episode Date: November 19, 2024

What was it like growing up in the occult? Today, business guru Christopher Lind shares his story publicly for the first time. He has an incredible experience to tell us about growing up with a mother and family who was involved in a cult. After escaping that he eventually became a Christian, but then (sadly!) almost persuaded away from the faith by a well-meaning pastor. Hope you enjoy and find his story compelling. WATCH: "Disturbing: How AI is Transforming Sex and P*rn: (w/ Christopher Lind): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxFSuip433Q Subscribe to Christopher's Substack (Future Focused): https://christopherlind.substack.com/ *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: @sean_mcdowell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org

If I didn't know our guest today personally, I would have a hard time believing his story. He was not eager to tell it for reasons we will discuss, but agreed to talk about it. Christopher Lind is a businessman, AI expert, podcaster, and friend. For 40 minutes, I felt like I was on fire. I met Jesus in a very unpredictable way, And I saw someone who was just tormented. You made a stupid mistake. Federal agents showed up at the school. Christopher, thanks for coming back on the show. Thanks for having me back, Sean. I'm looking forward to it.

Before we get into some of the details of your story, maybe lay out kind of a 30,000 foot perspective so people know where you've been and where you are now. Yeah, it's definitely not a story you'll find if you like glance at my LinkedIn or something like that. So the 30,000 level view of it, and then we'll get into it is I grew up with a biological mom who herself and her family were involved in the occult. I met Jesus in a very unpredictable way and was then almost talked out of it by a pastor. I ended up then growing up in what I would call American evangelical culture, which sent me on a really weird path that almost ended in me living my life, ending my life. And then I have walked with Jesus in very strange and unorthodox ways the rest of

my life and have just been following him. So it's a pretty crazy story to say the least. So why have you been so reluctant to share your story? Well, like you said in the intro, there are some of it is just there are elements of it that are very personal and people who follow me know I'm very open and vulnerable. But there's some sides of it that are like, I just don't know how people are going to respond to it. It just seems almost too far out there. I think the other thing is I recognize people have a lot of just perceptions and perspectives, and it's been shaped by a lot of different things. And so when you hear it, I don't always have the luxury of being able to go into the details and the context to actually explain it in a better

way. And, you know, that can lead to people making really wrong assumptions, making judgments about not only me, but I think of even my own mom that I would go, I wouldn't want her represented or thought of that way. So it's just a very personal story that I typically only tell the people who really, where I have opportunities to share it in context. I could see that it's personal and public in a sense that you could probably get a lot of criticism from people who will see this and think you're crazy. Business wise, some people could maybe pull this up potentially and go, do I want to work with somebody with this backstory? I mean, just these days people do that. Very fair. That was only secondary to you. The most important thing you said is I just want to honor

my mom and my family. You're not selling a book. You just really were reluctant to do this. And I encourage you to pray about it. You did. So let's dive in. Let's just go back to maybe tell us about your family growing up, where you grew up and maybe some elements about it to help us understand. Yeah. So I moved around a bit when I was young. I originally grew up and was born in Colorado. We moved to Minnesota. And what was strange, and again, the occult thing, I didn't know until I got older. And then all of a sudden things made sense. I went, oh, that's what that was. But even kind of unorthodox, unrelated to that, my dad was a funeral director. So at a very young age, I'll just say I was exposed to evil

is the only way I can describe it, and mortality on a regular basis. So despite having a, also what I would describe as kind of a boring childhood. And again, people were like boring. Those things just seem to not make sense. But honestly, there were these extreme, strange personality shaping things. And then there were also some of these just normal, well, my mom took me to school in a wagon. I like, I don't know how those two fit together. I mean, a station wagon, or do you mean a wagon? No, like just literally a little red rider wagon that I got pulled to

school in. So that's where I got it. Yeah. Yeah. Like you wouldn't expect that you go, but I thought she was in the occult i thought you know it was going to be like this hollywood-esque head spinning type thing and you're like there were frightening terrifying things but there were also very normal human things about her as well that's really important for people to see when they think the occult, they're thinking nonstop 24 seven stuff we see in the movies or elsewhere, but most or much of your life seemed normal, but there were these pieces you described that were like, wait a minute, this is not normal. But growing up before we get into some of those, it probably felt normal to you. You didn't know any different. Is that true?

Yeah. I mean, even as I got older and would talk to people about, you know, the multiple attempts of people trying to kidnap me, to me, that was like, oh, that like happened to everybody, right? Like Jacob Wetterling got kidnapped. I experienced it on multiple occasions, almost like that's an everyday occurrence, isn't it? And people would just look at me sideways going, what? Like, no, that's not normal. And so just, yeah, there were just things like that that were very strange. And then there were things like, oh, we had a block party for my fifth birthday and I got a bike.

Okay. Right. That's, that's sounds pretty normal too. So yeah, it wasn't, it was normal and abnormal all in the same way. So maybe let's walk through some of the things that were a little bit abnormal. Some of the things that you look back now and realize, wow, that was not a kid's normal up, you know, upgrowing, so to speak. So since I mentioned the kidnapping one, I'll talk on that one quick. Okay. You know, for me, always being told like, hey, we have to have secret words and you don't go with anybody that doesn't say that word before they, you know,

if they come up to you and say something, you need to make sure they have that word. And to have experienced multiple people say, you need to make sure they have that word. And to have experienced multiple people say, you need to come with me. Your parents said that you need to come with me. And then I would say, well, what's the word? And they wouldn't know. That was not that unusual. I remember a time in a park where people that I thought I recognized tried to pull me into a van and I ran home and my mom came out and just looked at them and they took off. So there were just those that at the time I was like, oh, strange. I think though, some of the going back to just some of the terrifying evil I experienced that I didn't make sense of it until later was my mom, like I said, most of the time was totally normal, normal-ish. I mean,

she's a character, but she was a normal person. But there was personalities. And that's just what I knew, that mom isn't here anymore. And I knew I had to go. and I would have to hide in my room and barricade the door shut because it was not my mom. Now, as a little kid, I didn't have words for it. I couldn't explain what it was. I just knew her voice changed. Her personality changed. She didn't respond to her name anymore, and she was a terrifying human being. But to me, it was just normal. I just thought, well, sometimes parents just lose their minds and kids just know you need to go hide in your room and lock the door till, till they start responding to their name again. And to me, that was probably one of the most

prominent that once I understood occult practices and her traumatic childhood, suddenly things started to make sense of, oh, okay, I don't actually think that was my mom who would show up and be terrifying. Now, when I hear you describe secret passwords for being kidnapped, I'm thinking this is somebody whose parents work in the CIA or they're undercover somewhere. Why would the connection to the occult mean that people wanted to kidnap you and you had to have this built in in the sense that your parents expected it? What's that connection? My dad, I don't know, fully understood everything. That's one thing where, again, I'm hesitant to share my story because then sometimes people are like, well, obviously it must have been like this.

And it's like, I don't, I don't know that it was. My dad was very busy with work. He was very kind of off doing that. And so I really was home with my mom far more than he was around. But I think like to that one, she just said, I just remember her always telling me, there are certain people and people you may even be familiar with

who may not always have your best interest in mind. So if they come and you see someone, even if it's, and she would never say who, she would just say, even if it's someone that you know, just make sure you ask the password. And if they don't have it, run. Run as fast as you can. Shout, scream, just run.

And I remember, again, to me, I just thought, oh, okay, well, that seems normal. So as much as you're comfortable, do you know some of the backstory of this, like your grandparents, your great-grandparents? Is there kind of a tradition of this being passed on through your mom and your kind of first generation? I don't know about your siblings, but maybe resisted it? Or what's the backstory there?

So the backstory that I know, because one thing that I think anybody who listens or watches this who may have any sort of connection to the occult knows, it's super secretive. Like this isn't something that you like, you know, you're telling people you've got a sign in your front lawn that says occult. Because part of it is you want to assimilate into culture. You want people to never know that you're doing the things that you're doing. And so it's very difficult to find any information. And even when I started trying to dig into my family history, it was a ghost. It really was a ghost in terms of finding a lot of this. So a lot of what I ended up discovering was

through journals of my mom's that I discovered when I was a kid going through some boxes where I went, wait a minute, what is all this? To the best of my knowledge, from what I pieced together from it, it definitely goes back through her family. Now, how deep within her family? I don't know. But what I do know is that she was ritualistically abused horrifically. I mean, beyond some of the things that i read that she described or something that no human being should ever experience and so what i saw in my mom and where i think it broke was i always saw her extremely conflicted with this it was like it was part of her but it was also a part that she hated and so even her leaving as much as it hurt to my knowledge it truly was all she knew how to do to protect me and i even

look back at it that i mean her trying to protect me from her parents her trying to you know protect there was this duality of her where there was evil that was wanting to continue and do harm. There also was a side of her that truly saw her. I was her first, oldest child, and I know that there were previous children that did not make it, and I was the first that did. And so that was, if you know these practices, you know, there's bloodlines, there's the oldest, the oldest grandson. There's just a lot of things that had some ties to me that I think really, I don't know for sure. Cause nobody's ever said,

yeah, Christopher, by the way, yeah, I'm your great uncle. And yeah, we were planning on doing it. So that's where I have to go off the information I have. Yeah, that's fair. I mean, occult means things that are hidden and are secretive. And if it's rooted in satanic principles and lying, you want to hide that because the perceptions people are going to have. So thinking somebody's living a normal life is actually one of the most powerful ways to continue these practices uh as opposed to just being out in the open about right now we might be jumping ahead in your story but you said you made a reference to your mom leaving was that

when you were a kid when you were older what do you mean by that So she was around for till I was in my early teens. You know, again, experienced lots of things with her, but multiple self attempts on her own life was hospitalized. Um, and eventually that's when she just said, I, I need to be, I need to leave. Um, she was still close to our family ish. And I would see her regularly, but it still was very, you know, whether I knew, and we just, again, these were things that to me, just, I didn't put them together till later, but there would be times where I was supposed to go see her for the weekend. And it was almost like she knew something was coming and it was like, you can't be here this

weekend. And so that was just, again, routine where it was like, okay, well, I guess mom's either not going to be around this weekend or mom's not going to be around this weekend. And so ultimately I lost contact with her, um, you know, in my late teens. Did you ever have friends come over who just saw stuff and you feel like I've got to cover this up and hide it and it's kind of a family secret? Or did that not really come out as your kid growing up in any different ways? When I was young, I don't know that it really came out in any ways. You know, she was very good at hiding it. And again, there was almost just this, and I think a lot of it was just, oh, well, she's mentally ill, or she's tired, or things like that.

And so even our family just had a practice of knowing like, oh, well, you know, mom's not doing the best. We can't have our plans this weekend type of a thing. So that, as I got into my teenage years, she was just so conflicted and so torn because all of this started coming out for her that she was in the hospital in and out so much that I think people in the community just went, we don't really know what's going on, but whatever it is, your mom's not doing well. And at the time I still was just starting to discover what was happening. And so to me, I just thought I had a very sick mom. Now, obviously your mom made choices and she's an agent, but also was the way you described, we don't have to go into any detail about this, but just ritualistically abused.

Do you view her as just being a victim of a lot of forces? Like, how do you make sense of that in your mind between being an agent who can choose, but just forces and family members clearly tormenting her in a way that she wanted to escape from at times? How do you make sense of that tension in your mind? So it's definitely changed as I've matured in my walk with Christ. I think when I was very young, because I would have some of these very happy memories with my mom, I really almost completely dismissed accountability for some of the really scary parts of her and just kind of went you know like any kid you just want your mom to love you and you want

her approval and whatever and so I kind of just completely glossed over the scary side I think as I discovered the scary side and really started processing my own grief and the effect of my childhood trauma on me, I became very frustrated and angry and kind of resentful of her, not necessarily what she went through. I still had empathy for that, but I became very resentful of yeah but you you know continued like you affected me and you our family in my life um and i think then as my walk matured and i really started to understand the power of evil i think it's become more of a i really feel bad for her i hold her fully accountable for what she did because I see her agency in it. But I also saw someone who suffered horrifically and my heart actually just breaks for her. I pray daily that God would show her the freedom that he offers to her and that she could break free

from it. Because I saw someone who was just tormented, truly living hell on earth. And that you can't look at that and go, what a terrible, regardless of what you've been, at least I can't, I can't look at that and just have a cold heart to it because she truly experienced hell on earth and that shapes a person. And so, like I said, I still hold her accountable, but I've forgiven her. I love her and I pray that she can experience true freedom from the pain and the horrors that she lives. What would you say to someone? I'm curious that this is an apologetic channel. I love telling people stories, but I know there's people watching, including some Christians who would probably find it hard to believe what you described about your mom. Maybe it was, I mean, I don't know the medical term, but maybe someone would say it's

schizophrenia or bipolar, or there's some other medical condition, why her personality, multiple personality shifted. What convinces you that there's not just a physical, naturalistic explanation, but genuinely something supernatural was going on? So to the Christian and non-Christian skeptics who want a naturalistic explanation for it, I get it. I wanted one too. I mean, honestly, I was almost more relieved when i thought oh dis disassociated identities sort of see see it's just a it's just a cognitive splitting of her

brain and and that's it and with enough therapy and the right meds, my mom's going to be okay. And that's all it's going to take. And I wanted that. That's the thing for me, accepting it was probably harder than anybody listening to it. And that's, I think the part that, you know, people think like, oh yeah, I'm sure for you, you just jumped to that because it makes it easier to explain your mom. Actually, no, it doesn't. Accepting where my mom came from, accepting what I experienced to be what it was, that's not something you just accept first. If anything, you're constantly making excuses for why it's not. It can't possibly be that. It has to be all these other things. I remember reading the books going, oh, she's a novelist.

She's a creative. This must just be pure made-up stuff that helps her explain the voices in her head and all the things that she's doing. So I get it. I get why people do. But there were things I saw as a kid. I mean, she was not a big woman at all.

And I saw her throw things in the house that it would take multiple grown men to pick up. I saw her change physically in ways and do things that you can't explain that. Oh, well, she had a bad day or her personality split. And people can tell me, oh, you were a kid. You don't remember. That's fine. I get it. It's hard enough for me to accept.

I don't necessarily expect somebody else to listen to it and go, oh, it must be true. But I think to anybody who watches and listens to it and has even had an iota of a brush with some of this stuff, they're going to go, I know exactly what he's talking about. I know exactly what he's talking about and he isn't lying. And so I don't tell the story to try and convince people, you know, Hey, I got a book about demons and you need to believe demons are real. Like, no, I'm just telling the story because there's people out there who have had glances with this and they think they're crazy for all the reasons I did. They think they just, there's got to be another explanation.

There has to be this. And I share my story to go, you're not nuts. You're not crazy. I know what it is. And it's terrifying. I don't mean this in a supernatural sense, but do you have just a sixth sense from your experience where you just kind of know, you know what, I think that person's going through the same thing. And I, and I ask because I, I mean, I would miss it. It wouldn't be on my radar. I just, I'm a typical non-observant male anyways, on a lot of things. My wife's like,

why didn't you pick up on that? I'm like, I'm sorry, I just totally missed it. But having an experience like that, I would think correct me if I'm wrong, that you would maybe hear something somebody says, something they do, a way they react and maybe make. Yeah. Okay. There's a massive back story here. Is that the case for you? So what's weird, and this is another

part of the reason that I tell this story is I think one of the risks of people hearing things like this is we start looking around at people and going, are they on the good team or are they on the bad team? You know, is that person a, is my demon dar going to go off and am I going to know they're one of the, one of the bads and Oh, that's a good person over here. And I think one of the things that actually ultimately led me to almost taking my life was the duality of people is like, it's terrifying. There's not like, Oh, that's the bad person and they're always bad and they always do really bad

things. So stay away from them. That's a person made in the image of God who right now is not operating off of the image that they were made in right now. And maybe there's differing degrees of that. And what I will say is, no, there's not like, oh, I walk by somebody and go, yeah, that's one of those. No, if anything, when I interact with people, there are moments where I'll go, the enemy is acting right now. Like this is coming from a place that is not just, oh, you're tired and you had a bad day. This kind of reaction, this kind of response to things, this can't be explained by just human emotion. And I think that's a sense that I pick up on. And I can pick up on that when I'm talking to sometimes even other believers where it's like, I think we need to stop and pray right now,

because I think what's happening right now is outside of us. Well, so growing up, you described, and this is true for all of us, whatever background is, we just kind of assume that our experience is normal, whatever that experience may be. When was the first time you kind of thought, you know what? There's something else going on here. Maybe my experience is different. Johnny down the street is not experiencing the same thing that i am and maybe that is once you had clarity looking back some of those pieces started fitting together but what were some of those moments where you really began

to realize okay this isn't the normal kid's childhood and maybe it was the kidnap thing i mean i have no idea but what were some of those moments if you remember them? Um, I think the one that actually my conversion story, I think is actually what made me go, Hey, this is, this is not normal. What you're experiencing is not just like a childhood difference of maybe parents with different personalities or parents going through a bad divorce because while we weren't really involved in church, you know, it was kind of more of a social thing before we, my dad got remarried. You know, I went with friends on a mission trip and I just thought it was a cool opportunity to go hang out with friends and whatever. And we came back. And as we were coming back, we stopped at a Baptist church

and random church walk in a bunch of kids on a mission trip. And the pastors happens to be preaching the gospel that day. And he locked eyes with me the second he started preaching. And for 40 minutes, I felt like I was on fire and not in like a bad, like, I got to get out of here. This is this horrible. It was the polar opposite of what I had experienced when mom went away and someone else was there and I needed to hide, it was this fire of pure, I don't know, love, joy. I mean, I think of the fruit of the spirit, like all those things just bundled in one that just hit me that I went, wait a minute, whatever this is that I still don't fully understand,

I know what the opposite of this is. And the opposite of this isn't just parents who are in an argument or mom's having a bad day and you need to stay out of the room type of a thing. I went, there's something bigger going on here. And I, at the time I still didn't have context for it, but that was when I knew something about these experiences, these moments where someone shows up and says, you need to come with me. And I say, what's the password? And they freak and I run screaming and whatever I experienced in that moment, I went, oh, this was the opposite of that. And I don't think people can relate to whatever this is I described. Because when I talk to my friends about the things they experienced, they don't talk about it on this plane.

Okay, so I'm going to come back to that experience and unpack a little bit more. But one other question before we get there is, Chris, for maybe a year or two ago, I interviewed a fourth or fifth generation witch and she became a Christian and kind of stopped the generational curse, so to speak, from one generation to the next. And she talked about, and others in this world have told me who come out of it, that there's a certain power that even though they knew it was evil, there was a draw to that power. Were you ever drawn to that? Or is there always a sense of, I want nothing to do with this? So I'd be completely lying if there wasn't the allure of, oh, this is interesting. And also it's why I caution people when it comes to like learning more about or digging into some of the practices. Because even when I got

older and it was probably when I was in college and really started digging into like the past and some of the story and all of this and understanding what it was. Yeah, there was a part of me that was like, Ooh, it's kind of like interesting and exciting and, and scary and extremely powerful. Like I said, I saw my mom do things where I was like, man, there's insane power in this. But I think that experience I had with my conversion made me go, yeah, but it pales in comparison to whatever that was. And God's power was, I mean, it just cast out. I just, I still remember it just like sent darkness flying. And I went, nah, it doesn't compare. And when you'd seen the horrors and evil that went along with it,

you're like, whatever power you think you're getting. I saw my mom be a slave to it. Just a complete slave to what it was. And she hated it. She loved it, but she hated it. And so I think for me, there was never this like, should I go down that path? So much as, you know, ooh, isn't it kind of like fun and interesting type of a thing? It was like, no, no, that was maybe as far as i ever went

how old were you when you went into that baptist church probably 13. oh my goodness younger than i thought and it was more just curiosity i'm sure you'd say the holy spirit was guiding you in there but you're just like let's go into a baptist church so so well we were back from the mission trip the whole bus stopped and it was was like, hey, it's Sunday, like let's go to church. Sure, this is the only one that's on the side of the road. Bus stopped, went in, type of a thing. And I would absolutely say it was the Holy Spirit showing up

because there have been a handful of experiences where I've experienced it again. And one was immediately before I almost took my life. So I know what it is when you experience the light side is like, I mean, for any Star Wars fans, like when you experience the light, you're like, Oh, wow. Oh, wow. I know what that is. And that is infinitely more powerful than anything on the dark side. Was that your conversion at 13? Is that when you became a believer or just one step in your journey? How did you change? You described the experience of light and powerful, but how did

that change you, if at all, moving forward? So the thing I think that's been interesting about following Christ, um, being under the banner of Yahweh is while I had that moment. And I think if you were to say, when did you know you wanted to pursue God, not darkness? It was then, you know, did I say the sinner's prayer? Did I like whatever, you know, a lot of times I think we associate in American culture, this like one-time experience and then poof, the fairy dust has been sprinkled on you and you go on with life and you're a good Christian forever. That that's never been my experience. Was that the moment where I went, whoa, whatever this is, I want to be on this team. Like, God, I don't know what it all means. I don't know fully who you are

or what it means to follow you, but I want you and all of you. But I didn't have words for it. So I would say that's when I knew that I was committed to that team, no matter what else. But I don't know that I would say like, oh, and then I started going around and spreading the gospel to my friends and other things because I walked out of the church and the pastor went, who was with us, tried to talk me out of my conversion. He tried to say that wasn't real. So you know, it was, it was a very bizarre experience. Okay. So let me lean into this a little bit. The same pastor you had preach or a different pastor was at night or a different time. The pastor who was leading the ministry trip.

Okay. So this is the ministry trip you were on and then you happened to go to this church. And then it was like that night or very shortly after you talk with them. Oh, we walked out of the church. No, we walked out of the church. Oh, okay. We walked out of the church, got on the bus, and I happened to be sitting with the pastor who had led the trip and told him what had just happened to me. And he started telling me why it wasn't real, that it was just an emotional experience, that that wasn't God. That's just something that charismatics do to manipulate people. But the interesting thing, going back to what we talked about earlier of when my spidey senses went off, I went, this is not what I experienced in there. This is the other

team. I've experienced this before. And what is happening right now, this isn't just me talking to my pastor. This is, there's a whole lot of darkness going on right now. And so I was too young to like, you know, speak the power of Jesus in his face. But I just remember kind of going, but going, I don't believe what you're saying right now. And I know that this is coming from the other team. They want to stop whatever that was. I mean, how do you look back on that? Because I'm somewhat torn and I say, here's the pastor.

His job is to shepherd you and affirm what is true. And I appreciate the concern over like over-emotionalism. Like that is a caution, but he's speaking the opposite of the truth you just experienced. Have you talked to them since? Do you look back and just say, you know, here's a guy who was doing his best, but was misguided? Or how do you even make sense of that so quickly after a life-changing experience?

So I've never talked to him about it since. It wasn't something that really came up. You know, we weren't in the church once my dad got remarried. So we didn't really stay connected. But I think one of the best analogies I can compare it to, because again, do I think like, oh, he's a, if I said his name, you should ban his church and what? No, no, that's not what I would say.

I think the best analogy I can think of is anybody who's seen the matrix and they know when agent Smith just like, like zaps into somebody and does something, whether they're actually physically, and this is where people get all hung up on, like, can you be possessed? If you're, I'm not going to get into the apologetics of that, but all I can say is, do I think that well-meaning people who are going about their lives trying to do the right thing can be heavily influenced by Agent Smith in moments when God's trying to do something? Yeah. And do I think that they may not even realize that's what's happening? Yeah. And that's where I think to him, he probably just thought,

I'm trying to talk you out of what seemed to me was a charismatic, you know, whatever experience and where that influence came to sit next to me after church when he didn't know what had happened and suddenly just start talking me out of the experience. Like, to me, I was like, this is bigger than just a pastor to, did that, whether he's aware of it or not. I do appreciate that thoughtful, gracious response because I've worked with students over two decades, speaking, teaching, counseling, different capacities as a parent. And I'm sure there's times like that I completely missed the boat and gave the wrong advice. So being able to just step back from that and have

grace towards people, but also say there's real spiritual forces at work and not losing that to protect ourselves. I think we can have both of those. Now, you mentioned earlier- When I think on that, the other thing I would add to it is, I think this is also why we sometimes have to move away from this Hollywood-esque, only sinister view of how the enemy plays. Because it's easy to think, oh, I'm only hearing from the enemy trying to influence me when it's pure wickedness. Like when I want to do something horrible or whatever. And it's like, there are times he's just a deceiver. He just wants to rob, kill, and steal.

Like that's all he cares about. He doesn't have to show up in this evil, sinister form. And that's why I think the Bible talks so much about why you need to meditate on my word day and night and be in it with me at all times. Because you may be doing something that seems totally innocent, but you suddenly just get this push to go, you should do this. because you may be doing something that seems totally innocent, but you suddenly just get this push to go, you should do this. And it's not sinister, but you just go, okay. And you do it without first taking that to God and going, wait a minute, is this something that God would actually

advocate for? Is this something God would actually stand behind the actions I'm about to take? Because it may not be, oh, go kidnap this kid or go talk this person out of their conversion experience. It might be, hey, I need you to just go do this. And you just kind of, oh, okay, fine. And you just mindlessly go through it. And I think that's where we sometimes miss the mark. So Satan is a liar, a deceiver. And the best lies are subtle lies that just, you know, in a small way, twist the truth. It's the most persuasive. We see that in the garden at the very beginning. Did God really say just a subtle question to throw him off balance?

But Satan's also a murderer and wants to kill. And consistently, when I've been able to talk with people who came out of the occult or their family was, there's often a moment where it's like, I just want to take my own life or end somebody else's life. You describe being at that point, what happened and what you, what took you out of taking your life? So after, so I had my, what I would say, conversion experience. I experienced God in his full glory. And then I mentioned my dad got remarried to what I would describe as an American evangelical, right? All that comes with that culture. We started speaking Christianese. We did the American Christian thing. But what was always hard about it was,

going back to what I said about my childhood, 90% of it was totally normal. And so here I am in this new evangelical Jesus world, and it's honestly not really any different. We go to church on Sunday. We say the thing when we're around people. We speak in Christianese, but our lives aren't necessarily notably different. Like, wow, they're living completely differently. And that was hard for me because I went, okay, this thing I experienced in this Baptist church was like real and on fire and life transforming. Now I'm in Christian culture and it doesn't really seem like anybody in this

culture is really all that transformed by it. Seems like they've all said, okay, yeah, Jesus died and raised from the dead for my sins. Got it. Like I passed the test. But then they just go back to living their life like everybody else. And I lived with that for the rest of my time home i went off to bible college and that was a very similar experience where i went okay i'm around a lot of people who speak christianese and you know vote a certain way and say like they do the things that christians do

but i'm not necessarily seeing this life transformative force that I experienced. And that was really hard for me. And granted, God brought people into my life at just the right time to give me a glimmer of hope where I was like, that person, I see it. I sense it. I just feel that God is driving their life. They are fully in tune with it. So there was enough there to kind of keep me moving forward and not lose hope and not lose faith. But I had a crisis of faith towards the end of my college career where I just went, like, what is this? Like, God, what is this? Like, I experienced experienced you i don't see you anywhere i'm not feeling you anywhere i don't see you transforming lives i see the brokenness this

is when all of my stuff just started coming out and i started really realizing the horrors i'd been through and the trauma that that had had on me and didn't know how to process it and then didn't know how to process it around a bunch of veneered face people who said everything was always great. And I love life and Jesus is good. Nothing ever goes wrong for me. And so I had nowhere to turn to go. That's not my experience. It sucks. I experienced horrific trauma and I, people are broken. And I, everywhere I look, I see fallen people, but we all seem to be completely blind to it. And one night I just said, I'm done. I can't do this, God.

And I remember, again, that presence, the dark presence showed up and just was like, see, see, the pastor was right. It's a fraud. It's not real. It's all just another version of the same thing that you saw as a kid. There's just varying degrees of how much people are faking it to go through life. And I started to believe it. And I went, you know what? Maybe you're right. And if that's the case, then I guess my only hope is just to be done. And I still remember the voices saying, yep,

you're right. You're, you're worthless. You're, there's no point. It's never going to get any, but it's all a fraud here. You spent the last few years, you thought you had this experience and you were going to experience something different and it's not real. And I walked all the way over to a bridge. I pulled myself over the edge. I remember counting the cars underneath and timing it. I was a math geek, so I knew exactly how to time it so that I would hit right when the car was in front. And I just remember being encouraged along the way. And that white presence showed up again. And it didn't say, no, don't do this. Like, no, no, no, go. It wasn't that. It was just God's glory in all its majesty. And it was like a flash, yet it felt like a thousand

years. And it wasn't saying, you're wrong. You're doing it bad. You're not following me right. You're screwing it up. It said, all the pain, but this is not what I want for you, but the choice is yours. And that's the best I can describe what happened. And I just went, okay, I'm not, like I'm not, I still don't know what you want from me. Like I didn't suddenly like, and God revealed my whole life plan. And then I knew where I was going.

Nope. He didn't, he didn't tell me where I was all going to go from there. He didn't tell me I was still going to experience hell on earth going forward. And it was going to be really hard. And that following him wasn't going to be this cakewalk and my life was going to be happy. But he did say, this isn't what I want for you, but the choice is yours. And there was so much love and majesty in his presence that I just went, okay, if this isn't what you want, I still remember in that church saying,

I want to follow you. And if you're saying this isn't the plan, then I don't know what the plan is, but it's not this. And I turned around and walked home and went to the hospital and I got help. Wow. What's one or two people in your journey that responded maybe the opposite of the past you described earlier that felt like they get it. They're giving me hope. They listen to my story. Or maybe just one person that jumps out from 13 forward, maybe through Bible school, that just ministered to you in a way you think Christians should respond or live their lives. So going back to the moment I just described, I had a couple friends that when I walked back from the apartment or from the bridge, they saw my face and they'd known the things that I was going through and

they'd believed me. They didn't understand it, but they'd believed me. And when I walked back in, I think they knew what I had just almost done. Cause I had, cause it, I don't know how to explain it. It was almost weird how I was able to just sneak out of the apartment. There were tons of people there. Nobody noticed. I just vanished because when I came back, they were like, where were you? Like, how did you even get out? What happened?

It was like in an instant things just happened. And when I came back, they knew what had just almost gone down and they loved on me. They didn't judge me. They didn't say, how'd you make such a stupid mistake? Like, why would you think? No, they just said, they just gathered around me and hugged me and said, I'm so sorry. And they said, we're going to get you help. And that, it was like the human version of what I'd experienced on the bridge. So that was, that was huge. I still remember my youth pastor. He was probably one of the people that gave me hope in between. He loved his kids. He loved Jesus. And he was so genuine. And I remember I just wanted to be around him whenever I could, because he just, he just exuded the light. And I, whenever I read the Bible and I read these versions of you'll be a light to the world,

you will be a salt. Like people taste it. They see it. They feel it. And I remember my youth pastor, he was one of those people where you just went, there's something about this person that is completely different and inspires and gives me hope for whatever it is in all this brokenness that I'll go forward. And there were moments in college where I made some really stupid decisions, but I had some professors who went, I know who you are. I know what you've been through. And I love you despite your mistakes. I love you. Like I don't mind judging you on it. Yeah, you're accountable. I'm going to hold you accountable. You made a stupid mistake. Federal agents showed up at the school. Like we can't just look the other way, but I love you and we're gonna work through this.

And so I think those are some of the people who, as best I can say it, Jesus was living through them and I felt it and they were those moments that I needed uh in between i'm tempted to ask a story about the federal agents but we'll let that one go maybe that's for another time that's for another time you have nine kids right it's not right eight kids okay your eighth was born i think shortly after we had our last interview not long ago yeah do you talk to your kids about this?

Are you going to let them watch this interview? How do you process your backstory with them? So as they get older, my oldest is 13. I'm extremely open with my kids. I mean, we read, we just read. I had somebody recently asked me like, what should I do with my kids? And I'm like, honestly, just read the I had somebody recently asked me like, what should I do with my kids? And I'm like, honestly, just read the text with them. Just read it with them and talk about it. Talk about what

stands out. Um, and so we talk about, we've read through the Bible together multiple times, and we talk about some of the ugliness in there and some of the really terrible things we see the heroes of the faith do. And we talk about that duality of just really righteous people who do really horrific things. And they know the daddy has had a challenging childhood. They know that daddy's gone through some things

and they've asked, will you ever tell us the specifics of it? And I said, I will. I will when you're old enough to really understand what that is. But there are times when we talk about certain stories and they know when I go, hey, these things are real. This kind of stuff that we're seeing here when Jesus is casting demons out of people, these aren't people who are just sick. There's other things going on that we can't see. And so it's about personalizing it to where they are from a mature level. I mean, I think back to when I discovered some of my mom's journals, I was too young to understand what I was reading to process that. And I don't want to expose

them to that and i will probably always in some ways shape it even as i'm shaping it here i'm not going to disclose the details of some of the horrors or go into it because it's like why give evil that kind of stage time no way i love that approach i know there's some people probably thinking why don't you probe into how did your mom practice the occult? What did this look like? And that's just somebody else's story to tell. We don't want to play into that. But I do have a final question for you. You mentioned losing just contact with your mom since you were a teenager. So it's been a couple decades plus. There's obviously a chance given that you shared your story public that she would come across this and maybe watch this if she happened to, what would you want to say to your mom? I'd say the same thing that my friend said when I came back from that bridge, that I love you and God loves you more than you can even imagine. And I'm sorry for what you went through. No one should have had to experience the things

that she did. And I'm sorry that that was her experience, but that isn't what, that's not who God is. That's what I would want her to hear. That I'm sure she carries baggage from the things and I don't hate her. I'm not angry with her. I've truly forgiven her and I hope she can experience I'm not angry with her I've truly forgiven her

and I hope she can experience the true forgiveness and love that I've experienced in Christ one of my big takeaways your story is just believing people and listening to them responding non-judgmental II and just leading with love is just a way to minister to people and And I want to get better at that myself. So I appreciate you drawing that out. Thanks for being willing to share your story. I know this is personal. And when I asked you to just think about it, you prayed about it for a while, you really thought about it, which tells me you want to share it for the right reasons that you hope just encourages people and blesses people. And I think you've done that. Now, some people might want to know more

about just kind of what you do. I listened to your weekly cultural update. Maybe just tell folks where they can follow your ministry, which is completely different than this. Yeah, so I do, I write on Substack. I do a podcast. I recently lost my traditional full-time job. And so now we'll be doing a lot more time doing digital leadership coaching. And I like to say I'm kind of the corporate MacGyver. So I do a lot of executive problem solving

with technology. So people, most people know me from linkedin um or youtube or substack you didn't go to biola but you're exactly the kind of graduate we want to make at biola in the sense of people that are intentional about their faith really helping people solve problems but you naturally weave it in in appropriate ways you don't shy away from it but just in respectful thoughtful ways and i love that i listen to your cultural update weekly i told you this just in terms of business and ai and culture and we'll put a link below i hope people will check that out and before you go make sure you hit subscribe we want to bring you more stories and more apologetics content to equip you christopher you're a good friend.

Thanks for coming on and sharing your story. Thanks for having me, Sean. Always a pleasure.