The Sean McDowell Show - Escaping the Prosperity Gospel: Costi Hinn’s Story

Episode Date: April 1, 2025

Costi Hinn is the nephew of the world-famous televangelist Benny Hinn. Traveling in private jets and staying in some of the most expensive hotels in the world, he had a front-row seat to the inner workings of the prosperity gospel. Even though it cost him personally, Costi has escaped the prosperity gospel and is now an outspoken evangelical pastor and author. Today, he shares his story and talks about dangers of prosperity gospel. READ: Walking in God's Will: Demystify God's Plan for Your Life and Make Decisions with Confidence by Costi W. Hinn (https://amzn.to/4bxVfr3)*Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf)*USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM)*See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK)FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowellTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=enInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/Website: https://seanmcdowell.org

Why would the nephew of Benny Hinn who traveled the world on Gulfstream jets and had everything money could buy Abandon the prosperity gospel the faith of his family and become an outspoken critic of it Our guest today author Costi Hinn who's also the teaching pastor at Shepard's house Bible Church Has a powerful story that needs to be heard and shared. Costi, thanks so much for coming on. Thanks for having me on, Sean. Appreciate you. Yeah.

If it's okay with you, I want to start with this question. We had you on about five or six years ago when the book kind of chronically in your journey out of the prosperity gospel came out on our audio podcast. I've always wanted to have you here. But my question to start is, is the prosperity gospel in retreat or is it advancing? And what I mean by this is there's been people like our mutual friend, Mike Winger, who's been a critic of your uncle and taken some heat for it. But also we see Trump nominating or choosing Paula White to be the head of the White House Faith Initiative. And she's clearly promoted some prosperity gospel ideas.

What's your sense of that question? Just off the cuff, I think there's two strong fronts. On one hand, I love, I got to do an episode with people. And Mike even said, uh, you know, I kind of brushed all this off and it was like, whatever for years. And then I went down the rabbit hole and I couldn't get out. And so he got all fired up and with righteous zeal to protect people and to serve. So I love seeing that that's new.

We haven't seen that from Winger, although I've seen it in the show. I've seen it in the show. I've seen it in the show. I've seen it in the show. I've seen it in the show. I've seen it in the show. I've seen it in the show. I've seen it in the show. I've seen it in the show. and I couldn't get out. And so he got all fired up and with righteous zeal to protect people and to serve. So I love seeing that, that's new. We haven't seen that from Winger, although he's done a ton of good work.

Sure. And so there's that. And then American Gospel came out some years ago with that project and a number of things that have been a tip of the spear. On the other side of the equation, while we've seen the decline of, I would say, the old regime, people like Kenneth Copeland, my uncle and others, I do see a lot of headway being made still. And when you look at Trump's decision, but also when you look at the size of some

of the churches and you just tour the next generation of guys, I'll just, I'll name one name and bring one guy up and if people like him, I'm not throwing needless shade. I'd love for people to Google and just watch or look at some of this stuff and use discernment. But Michael Todd being one guy in the next generation who rolls up in like limited edition Tesla,

rocking Louis Vuitton, you know, purse across his chest, God being one guy in the next generation who rolls up in like limited edition Tesla, Rockin' Louis Vuitton, you know, purse across his chest, larger than life personality. He's a pastor in Tulsa and their statement of faith on their website actually says, we teach health, wealth and prosperity. Like they're not going to apologize for it. So that's why I bring him up. He's got millions of followers on Instagram, YouTube subscribers. And I'll be honest with you, when you watch him and his lifestyle and his

preaching and his flair, you're like, okay, this is, this is like new school. Swag in the pulpit at a level that I would say, uh, is different than my uncle or Kenneth Copeland or some of the old players. And the reason I would say that is the older guys were weird, just to put it very bluntly. My uncle in a white suit, wave in a jacket, the hair. I mean, Comedy Central was doing spoofs on him. You remember some of that stuff, people probably do.

And it was more laughable. It was wild. Dateline NBC was doing stuff. CBC, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, I grew up in Canada. They were doing stuff. Inside Edition, all Broadcasting Corporation, I grew up in Canada, they were doing stuff inside edition, all of that. With the new school guys, they're cool.

They're doing celebrity weddings, they're hanging out with the Biebs, celebrities and athletes are coming to their churches and they know already, don't be super weird. Don't wave a white jacket, don't knock people over. Don't make massively false prophecies and hit the news. Just play it cool. Preach prosperity. Give people the hope of the American dream. Make crazy money and then get your season tickets and chill. That's the approach of this new generation. So on one hand, I'm pumped. I love seeing what you're doing. Winger, others, our friend Natasha Crane, like a lot of, Alyssa Childers,

like there are a ton of next generation apologists, strong leaders, great resources, and media is allowing for that, social media. At the same time, yes, my uncle, I would say, is in decline. The old regime is dying off, but the new school guys have got a very attractive strategy, so we don't want to be silent and start chilling. That's a really good balanced perspective. And in some ways, because of its subtlety and not obvious craziness,

it can be that much more persuasive to people than the Old Guard. That's why I think I really wanted to do this show and speak up about this, and that's why it's concerning, and so I'm really glad you framed it that way. Let's take a step back a little bit and hear some of the story in your family, why you came out and why you're so concerned about this still today. So many people still recognize the name Benny Hinn, one of the most influential prosperity preachers, probably the last half century. Tell us a little bit about the Hinn family,

which obviously you come from and its roots in Israel. Yeah, well, I'll just, I'll start with this. It was your last question. Why I'm so concerned is I ended up becoming a pastor. So when God calls you to that, it's not that Christians won't call this stuff out, but we do something, we preach the truth as we shepherd the flock and we refute error.

Paul tells Timothy to do that, he tells Titus to do it. I mean, that's the call of the elder and the pastor. So I would still be vocal and honest with my friends if I was in business or some other avenue, but you know that, and which sometimes would have been nice if I could just make my money, give generously to my church, serve, you know, do my thing and kind of, and relax and stay out of the,

the center of some of this controversy. But the Lord made me a pastor, and so I'm just doing what long before I ever did faithful men and women have done, and which is to share the truth, evangelize. And so that's why I'm concerned. But before that, I grew up in the center of this. I loved it, I lived it, I taught it, I defended it. And so I would, growing up, talk with friends

that were Baptist or some other denomination. And I used to think that they were all dead Christians. That's what we would say. You know, the Baptists, the Presbyterians, the non-denominational people, you know, they got the Bible, but they don't have the power of God, signs and wonders, and they don't have our anointing. And so I grew up viewing everyone else as a dead version of Christianity or a lesser version,

and we were the elite. And the reason for that is we could speak things into existence, we could access God in a very unique way. We had the anointing, we use that word so much. And years later, I'm studying 1st John and looking at the text and going, we use that word so much, and years later I'm studying 1 John and looking at the text and going, we're all anointed, but I was like, wait a minute. But for the longest time, it was no, we're anointed. We've got this special calling and we have a special access to God.

In that, I would also describe my family culture, we'll call it, as a hybrid between the royal family and the mafia. I've said this time and time again, the wealth and prestige of the royal family, and then the loyalty and the enforced loyalty of the mafia. Being a Middle Eastern family as well, my father is Palestinian, they all speak Arabic, my mom's Canadian and not Palestinian. She's a white Canadian hockey-loving girl. And so my older sister is, and my younger sister, all of us grew up in this family that really,

for the most part, swung Middle Eastern. And my mom just became the most wonderful cook of Middle Eastern food. It's just the culture engulfed her. And so we grew up in a heavily tight knit family. If you've ever watched the movie, My Big Fat Greek Wedding, and you see the tightness of,

and this crosses many different cultures. My Hispanic friends, different Asian communities, I mean, tight knit family culture. And so for us, blood is thicker than water. You don't go against family. Well, when I began to question things, first, it was met with a very simple explanation, Kosti. The reason people are doing exposés on our family,

the reason people come against us is because we're being persecuted like Paul and like Jesus and they're jealous of our anointing, our blessing, and our favor and that just goes with the territory, that's persecution and suffering. And so I grew up with a loyalty to family, a loyalty to theology, a belief that it worked, but also a side-eye of arrogance and elitism towards people who would call it out or people in other denominations. They were dead or jealous. Over the years, I would see more and more things that I couldn't reconcile, but, and people would probably relate to this if you've ever been in, my family was never abusive

or mean to me. That's something I've often said. My uncle was so generous, so kind, favored me, treated us all so sweetly. But if you've ever been in an unhealthy relationship, be it an abusive person or a narcissist or people who are manipulative, what happens is they find ways to put fear in you or you grow up or you come up in that relationship with a fear of ever abandoning

it because you won't have anything else. And so there were times where I would think, oh, I did, there's just something about this, but I mean, I have no options. What am I going to do? How am I going to live? How am I going to feed myself? Where am I going to go? Who, who would ever take me in?

I mean, all of these kinds of things were thoughts in my mind. And eventually I would also just brush it under the rug because money will do that, the enjoyment of life will do that and also relationships. This is something I've told people time and time again, is my uncle, my father, anybody involved in this whole thing, the entire family was, would not go back to their, James Bond headquarters,

evil lair like a James Bond villain, and with their white cat doing this and going, ha ha ha, we got them again. They wouldn't do that. They read the Bible. Their Bibles were covered with highlighter notes. We would debrief after services, and the most you'd ever hear is, oh, what a powerful power! The power of God was so strong! The anointing on... Oh wow!

And then you'd say, yeah, that one guy who flew through the air, he jumped very fleshly. My uncle would say it's of the flesh, that he was too fleshly. He would have opinions on people's responses and it was not, Wow, everybody really did what they were told to do. Now in later years, I began to discover cause more people came forward that internally a lot was staged and set up. People were primed, they were shielded

from the healing lines. If they had real ailments, they were ushered in and up on the stage, if they had things that could sell on TV really well and play it off. And so all of that was part of it. But overall, I wasn't seeing on the inside this, you know, ha ha ha, you know, we're, we're pulling it off. So in my mind, I'm thinking, yeah, I mean, even though there's some shady things,

you know, we're trying to do good work and we do have this special anointing and an accent, and we're just trying to help people. And that's what my family, uncle, father, or others would say is, look, we have the anointing of God, we have these gifts. One family member used to always say they have nine spiritual gifts and they can one family member used to always say they have nine spiritual gifts and they can perform all sorts of signs and wonders and they can put on the prophet hat and the apostle hat and the miracles hat and the healings hat and the tongues hat and the inter... and I was like wow, I don't even know if I have one yet. And so there's this awe that you develop. So when you see things that are wrong, like in other healthy, other unhealthy relationships, you use the good to then justify ignoring the bad. I mean, this is, this is what many people end up in counseling for. And so I end up going to a college to play baseball. And the reason I did that is I was playing baseball a lot and I wanted to play professionally and

before I went and played in college I sowed a seed of faith and when I the way it worked in our theology was you Sacrifice or you lay something down you sow a seed of faith you put God first And if you sow into the life of a man of God, the Lord will give you what you want. So I'm really just transactional. God's will is something I can bend to my will. So I put off baseball, put off college, almost like a Mormon going on a mission.

Mine was about a year and a half. And I commit to working for my uncle. And so I'm his assistant. I am carrying, you know, petty cash, Louis Vuitton suitcases. I'm checking in out of hotels. I'm a part of the services. I went during the services, everyone had to have a job or do something.

So when I wasn't in the back in the green room, eating his snacks and drinking his Fiji water, I would have to go catch people. And so we would hang out in the back and then when the healing stuff started, we'd all come out in our suits and we'd be catching people. And so you don't need to go look for it,

but there is YouTube footage of me catching. Oh wow. Back in the day, I had a lot more hair and just a baby face. And so I worked with them. And during that time, I, I really started to take it hook line and sinker, Sean, I was living the dream. We flew in a Gulfstream jet. We stayed at the nicest hotels in the world. I still have memories in my mind. I think

about where I've been. And I'm like, man, I, we stayed one night at the Burj Al Arab, the hotel in Dubai that's safe, like shaped like a sale. And we stayed in the Royal suite. And this was before like YouTube and social media was heavy. And so you're not like Instagramming it. You're just there and you're $25,000 a night for the Royal suite. And I'm like, this is so legit. Like we I've arrived, like look at,

and around that same time, I had family members, my uncle, friends who were in that whole circle prophesying over me that I was next. And I used to be like, what does that mean? And one guy prophesied over me one night and said, you're gonna take this healing ministry to the next level. You're gonna see healings that are far beyond what we've even seen.

It was always very sensationalized and all of that. And then I remember one time being rushed backstage. So Oral Roberts could lay hands on me and he was a big guy Huge hand just boom on my head and he's prophesying over me Everyone's prophesying, you know that I'm the next this and the next that and I I'm sure they did that for everyone That was like their thing with yeah, you know everybody's sons and everybody's nephews and everybody's cousins and whatever but I

start thinking like yeah yeah, okay. And, and so in that we're, I'm just, I'm being groomed and trained in this whole industry. And even though I saw things even more so up close, I'd, I'd file them away and brush them under the rug. But one experience I can never forget. I can't unsee it. We were in India, Mumbai, India, true never forget. I can't unsee it.

We were in India, Mumbai, India, true story on YouTube. This one's on YouTube. Uh, there was over a million people at the services. That's not, that's not an exaggeration. They rented or leased these out, this outdoor field, these outdoor properties, and they just kept going and they had massive sound systems and huge like the 36 foot outdoor screens type thing and so they had those all the way back and I remember getting in a golf cart and to my best recollection it took like 45 minutes to drive the length of the crowd we're just in this golf cart

with the crowds just keep going I look, can't even see my uncle and the 500 person choir in blue robes is like a tiny blue speck. And we're in Mumbai. And during that time, there were like three metal or steel barricades like you'd see at a big concert or the Superbowl. And there were three layers of them so people couldn't rush the stage.

And I remember my dad who used to work the healing lines. By the way, we kind of all worked for my uncle. So my dad pastored a church in Vancouver, British Columbia, where I grew up. I grew up in Canada after he worked for my uncle for a time at Orlando Christian Center, which was my uncle's church. And then my dad started very similar to how you or I will go speak at a conference sometimes or we may do some speaking somewhere or seminars. My dad, we pastor to church and then he would travel with my uncle once or twice a month and just make bank like big big checks on the weekend, no revenue sharing type of approach if you're on the inside.

And so with that, my dad's job during the Crusades was to work the healing lines. He's in a lot of videos when my uncle would swing to the left or the right and say, Henry, what's happening, what's happening? And he would say, pastor, this woman couldn't move for 40 years. Tonight the power of God hit her.

And he go, oh, we give you praise, Jesus. And he put hands on him. I'd catch him, another guy would. And people would clap. People give God a mighty hand of praise, you know, all this stuff if you watch it on YouTube. And you're like, wow, my dad was in charge of filtering one of those lines.

And so we're at this point, and he would go look for healings and look for people who seem to be having an experience. And so one night in India, he says, come with me. And I go down off the stage where I was on the stage the whole time. They put me there basically for like safety and comfort. There was no need to be in the normal crowd at that point

because of how large it was and where we were and all of that they had told me. So I go down with him, he says, come with me me and I don't know to this day why he did it I really don't I think the providence of God was at work and the Lord allowed that and ordained that moment because I saw something that started planting seeds of criticism to be honest going what this is messed up. I had never thought that I just thought oh there's some things yeah but I would defend it this I actually became critical in a good way and went this is wrong and so we go down I'm like

19 years old remember I take my year and a half or so off before college and my dad is taking me through the area They would put the sick people in one section always would Catherine Coleman the old faith healer from back in the day the woman With the white dress she used to do the same thing. It's where my uncle learned this in stadiums You have a wheelchair section and all sorts of stuff Well, I go down there and I described this in my book You remember the movie Saving Private Ryan and then more movies after that, how they have excellent cinematography where,

or whatever the word is, sorry if I butchered that and you're in film someone, but the way that the camera work is, it's shaky, it's very first person, you're there and it creates a feeling of being in the chaos. It felt like that, Sean, where I'm in the middle of people and their medical equipment is not like ours. So you have people with like handmade crutches,

people on stretchers, people holding kids that look like they're dead or almost dead, people crying. I mean, you look and it looks like a medical war zone looks like a medical war zone hospital where nothing is organized everyone's in agony and they're hoping and I this is what happened this is why I say I think it was God I believe it was I don't think I think I believe it was God sure in this moment I look back at the stage and I don't know why. I just see him in his white suit and I love him. He's my uncle. He's my favorite. He's good to me. And I see him in his white suit and the distance and for the first time in my life, maybe something that you would have said and maybe something others in Bible minded churches would immediately think like,

yeah, there's something wrong here. I went, Jesus did not distance Himself from the people He healed. He didn't go on a stage. My uncle's suit is just crispy white. These people, like if we can heal, and we taught, it's always God's will to heal everyone. And if they don't get healed, the problem is their their faith They don't give enough money their negative confession critical spirit

But we can heal and we can heal on demand like the Apostles. We have the gifts and I'm going if we have it Why don't we just go down here? Clear the place out glory to God film it put that out Everybody will believe then Dateline NBC will shut up the critics will shut up Hey can a graph back then I yeah can a graph was the Bible answer man We'd listen on the radio ripping my uncle apart and go what a Pharisee like they would all just zip it No one would ever doubt we'd see and my brain just and that that's bad news If you're in a situation where you're supposed

to be towing the line. And so that had happened once before. There was a girl I went to high school with, she got cancer and I remember telling my dad, this was in like junior, senior year and she had long blonde hair, like classic, almost you'd be like almost a cliche story, long blonde hair and then it's gone.

And from cancer I remember telling my dad we should go heal her and she goes no and he said no it they don't believe like we do so it wouldn't they wouldn't receive it and I was like oh and I used to think well why don't we just do it and prove them wrong like Jesus would wouldn't he do that well people had faith they they they came believe remember the woman with the issue of blood She crawled through the crowd. They don't want it. We can't give it to him like okay And which is very much In line now. I just saw a clip recently of Stephen Furtick who's very popular

Teaching that there's one thing Jesus can't do he can't override override our unbelief. And I was going, oh no, Furtick, what? I don't start that down that trail. You know, like Jesus is handcuffed. He can't heal. He can't save. He can't deliver. He just goes, I can't do it. You know, their unbelief. Like Romans 5 8 says, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. So I was dead and he made me alive I he wasn't bound so all of that with my theology of healing was if you have any unbelief or any doubt or You just don't buy into it. You can't get it. So fast forward now To I finished that time with my my uncle and I go funny enough I go to Saddleback Community college first where you are in orange.

Yeah, that's right. Cause I was a Canadian kid. I took a year and a half off. So I went the Juco route first. And then I end up, uh, going from there to Dallas Baptist university in Dallas, Texas. Great school D1, but very discipleship focused. And I remember, uh, being so excited, great program,

beautiful facility. And my parents, we go to dinner one night and they said, now we wanna talk to you, okay? The Baptists are nice people. They're nice people, but you gotta be careful, okay? You don't get influenced by them. This is, you're there to play baseball, got it? I was like, totally. You gotta be careful, okay? You don't get influenced by them. This is, you're there to play baseball, got it?

I was like, totally. And I remember we were at an Italian restaurant in Laguna Niguel, so I know right where we were. And I remember the conversation, and I was like, I know, I know, I was classic, like 19-year-old kid. I know, I know, I know, I know. By then I was 21, because I had played at Saddleback first. Like, I know, I know, I know. So or by then I was 21 because I had played a Saddleback first like I know I know I know so

They they tell me that I get there and you've got to realize I'm a prosperity gospel kid I've been working for my uncle been making money. I drive an h2 Hummer with 22s the entire my spare tire is a matching rim. I have TVs in the seats No one even watches, but I put them on. Amazing. I have a limited edition Breitling watch. It's like my favorite watch.

And so I'm rolling. So I roll up. Nothing subtle about you at this point, man. Bro. Impossible to mix. Just picture me rolling up to the campus at Biola. Oh, man, I can picture that. I love it.

Got it. And they were gracious, just like they would be at Biola. Like, all right, we're gonna help this one. We'll let him play, but he's gonna be the project. So I get there and my coach who's still there, Dan Hefner, he starts talking about discipleship and different things. Well, there was one moment where he Says guys relax. There was a scout there at a practice and everyone was getting all wound up and We had some players that were high draft picks and so everyone's all on edge and and then he goes guys

Listen, everyone bring it up. He says Proverbs 21 one says the heart of the king is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord, he turns it wherever he wishes. Okay, what does that mean? God controls kings, which means he also can control scouts. He's in control of your future. Listen to me, okay? He is sovereign, all right?

And I'm like, what? Okay, what is he talking about? And he says, so don't worry about your future. Don't worry about trying to control everything. Just go out there, play the game, have fun and trust God with the results, okay? If you're gonna get drafted, God already knows the plan. He's already got, you just go play.

You're not gonna control anything by worrying about it and getting all anxious. And I'm like, and in my mind, true thought was, what is this? When the world is sovereignty, like I know how to get God to do what I want. Okay, I'm not worried about all this. This guy, this Baptist who drives at the time,

a white Camry and is some Baptist, like what does he know? I know about how to get God to do what I want. I'm here to play baseball, I'm here to be favored. I am favored on this, on that. And so I looked down on him, this sovereignty theme like sovereignty, like no, like we don't just sit back and do nothing. Like we, we do things and God will, will then do it.

We have to act first and that you got to file that because I go through my time there and a lot of seeds are planted. And, you know, I, I parked my Hummer illegally. I get tickets. I do what I want. I'm a punk and a prosperity gospel punk. I get out of DBU and fast forward to, it's 2009. That fall, I meet a girl who's now my wife

and mama to our six babies. And she's like blue collar Rancho Cucamonga girl, went to Azusa, didn't grow up in church, works at TGI Fridays, putting herself through college and trying to learn more about God, like that was her story. And we meet at a Jason Aldean concert

at Lake Elstor North Storm Stadium. And I meet her and the conversation begins to unfold and I find out she's trying to go to church, trying to get to know the Lord more and all that. I'm like, oh, right on, we're in a church. She's like, I go to Saddleback sometimes. I'm trying to learn about the Bible. I'm like, okay, whatever.

I don't know anything about Saddleback. And so I just, I'm driving my Hummer and we go on a date and I start to get to know her and that relationship develops and I'm like, I think she might be the one, like she's awesome. And then I go, I don't think I can marry her or take this relationship any further because she's not like us.

Gotcha. In my family, you had to marry someone from in the circle. And so finally, through a lot of agony and two breakups because my family kept prophesying, whoever this girl is, she's not from God. One family member prophesied that this girl I'm seeing, because she's not from our circle, we don't, you know, and all that, she will ruin the anointing on my life.

I mean, there was all sorts of prophecies. They didn't even know her. So finally, I introduce her to the fam and I'm like, I'm fighting for this. After the second breakup, I'm life. I mean, there was all sorts of prophecies. They didn't even know her. So finally I introduce her to the fam and I'm like, I'm fighting for this after the second breakup. I'm like, I gotta do this. And my mom's like, fine, just we'll see what we can do. So the fix was on and they try to get her to do everything.

And we used to teach back then, if you don't speak in tongues, you're not saved. Cause that's evidence that the Holy Spirit's actually in you. So second baptism for salvation, all of that. And so here's this girl, blue collar, no clue what's going on at my uncle's services, at my dad's, they're laying hands on her and she's just trying to get tongues. Like if she gets speaking tongues, we can get married. That's pretty much the way it went, Sean. And so it's not working.

And so what we do is, you know, she's crying. I'm like, I don't even know. And shocker, I go, we should check the Bible. We should look into the Bible. Like, let's see what the Bible says. And we find 1 Corinthians 12 verse 30, where Paul says, not all have the gifts of healing, have gifts of, not all do they,

and his rhetorical answers. No and So there's this diversity of gifts and I'm like, oh my goodness. I think you're off the hook She's got to come so I don't have to speak in tongues And at that time I still had my what I would have heard to as my prayer language and I spoke in tongues I'm like, yeah, so I do you don't we get married? It's this I've never seen this verse before is there more so we start going down the rabbit trail, which again is trouble and We end up pulling away from the family. I was gonna take over my dad's church. We're doing ministry in Canada and I end up backing off from the family. I'm not at this point

Anti-prosperity gospel. I'm just like I need to be different than them. There's something there. So you can laugh at me, but I said I want to be more like Osteen. I'm like, I'm going to be a little more like Joel. He's classy. He's like red flag. I know, but I'm like, he's classy. He's happy. Everyone likes him. He does nothing weird. He uses media really well like a good guy You know pre and he teaches the Bible and so I was like I don't want it. Yeah, so that's what I thought That was my view so we get away from the family We end up at this church plant in Orange County that at the time was a church plant out of a more You know a tractional church method, seeker driven approach.

But man, like, I'll take it. They taught the Bible, they loved people, they shared the real gospel. And I was like, this is awesome and not weird. So as I'm there, one day the, I'm hired on as the youth pastor and no one's worried if I'm a hen or whatever. I'm just a regular guy. I'm fun, I'm a good youth pastor and no one's worried if I'm a hen or whatever. I'm just a regular guy. I'm fun

I'm a good youth pastor and I love the kids and we're having a blast and it's the church is growing Pastor says we're gonna start doing some expository preaching and I'm like what in the world is Expository what like doesn't sound very fun or interesting? He goes no, no, we're gonna go through the Bible verse by verse on things So people understand the Bible so they get the Word of God and they know it for themselves. So I get assigned a text one day and it's John chapter 5 verses 1 through 17, the healing at the pool of Bethesda and without any hesitation I'm like I got this like I know healing and I'm studying the text and I'm using some of the new methods

I've learned and I've learned like OI I'm using some of the new methods I've learned and I've learned like OIKA observation interpretation correlation application I'm like, okay, I need to observe the text ask it questions It's okay to question and then I'll find answers all that so I'm going through that and Like a light bulb. I noticed things. I never noticed before First of all, Jesus heals one man out of the multitude. And I'm like, why one? It's always your will to heal everybody all the time.

Unless they don't have faith or they have a negative spirit or they say negative words or they don't give, but all right. So I circle that and jot down some notes. I'm like, he heals just one, 38 years at the, you know, I'm doing that. I get down to, through the text and the man when he's asked, do you wish to get healed? He complains to Jesus. Oh, every time I try to get there,

somebody else beats me when the angel stirs the water. Oh, I never get there in time. And he's like, you're literally in front of Jesus. Like what are you doing? Speak positive words and get your healing. Like this guy's negative. He's a complainer. And then it doesn't even say like, yes, I wish to get well, please heal me healer. He just complains. And then John records that Jesus healed the man immediately. It says immediately he was healed.

He picked up his pallet and walked. And I'm like, and I had this thought, not primed by anyone, anything. I had never really had a thought like this in my life. I went, no crowd, no music, no buildup, no crescendo, no white suit, no offerings, no jacket, and no limping because I had seen people limped across the stage. And one time, I remember this vividly and this was a normal thing, my uncle was saying, now I know her legs are a little stiff

and she's limping but your legs would be stiff too if you hadn't used them for 25 years. You know, keep believing it and you're like, you're justifying why healings are partial and not full. This guy 38 years cripple immediately and he's not he doesn't need to go to rehab or PT He's right carries the pallet and walks full restoration. So I'm going whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa Whoa, we need to look into that but the one that did me in Was the Pharisees come and say who told you you can pick up your pallet and walk. It's the fact it's the Sabbath day man, what are you doing and I told you you can pick up your palette and walk. It's the Sabbath day, man.

What are you doing? And he says, the man who healed me told me I could. And then John records, he didn't know who Jesus was for Jesus had slipped away in the crowd. That one, my wires didn't fire. I'm like, wait, hold on. So he didn't even know who Jesus was and he got healed. And he got healed immediately and Jesus only healed one.

And the guy complained. This isn't adding up. How do you get your healing if you don't know him? Because if you don't know him, how do you have enough faith in him to get healed? There you go. And then you you you complained All right, so I grab a commentary and my pastor at that time had given me one It was a burgundy commentary by some guy named John MacArthur never heard of him Wasn't even in the loop on drama

or that he had called out my uncle and my uncle said on TBN, I wish I could blow a critic's head off with my Holy Spirit machine gun, true story. I find all this out after him, like, oh, it's like Batman and the Joker had been going at it for a while and I was the clueless citizen in Gotham. And all of that goes down.

And so I'm reading and I turned to that text. My pastor had said, commentaries are helpful. You ever use one? I'm like, no. And I had heard of Chuck Swindoll and different people that were really helpful, but not really ever had a commentary. I'm like, yeah, people write some books. It's helpful. Well, I'm reading in it.

that's helpful. Well, I'm reading in it, and in that exact section, J. Mack, as I would affectionately call him, goes off on the entire situation, and he says, here is an example of Jesus's sovereign healing power in action. I'm like, wait, there's that word, there's a sovereign word. And he goes on to say, this is a picture, a beautiful picture of salvation and the way God operates

that this man did not get healed because of any merits of his own. He didn't make Jesus heal him. He didn't do anything good enough for Jesus to heal him. Jesus simply chose to heal him out of his love and compassion and mercy and kindness. And sometimes he healed people when they had lots of faith, like the men who lowered their body down through the roof,

and like the woman with the issue of blood, crawling through the crowd. And other times, like this man, he just healed them. It is a picture of his sovereignty and action, the way he calls sinners. And I'm like, whoa, then he does this JMAQ thing like he does, and he goes, and therein we find the cruelest lies of faith healers today

That the people they fail to heal are guilty of negative confession Unbelief at that point. That's a direct quote. I don't remember the rest. I can go grab the commentary and tell you I bawled my eyes out. I was crying On my bible And I went, all my eyes out. I was crying on my Bible and I went Oh my goodness Lord. That's me that That's us. This is every this makes sense. I you're sovereign you you're in control You're the God of heaven and earth Jesus you save it's about your word your truth your way your gospel

You save, it's about your word, your truth, your way, your gospel. What in the world? And so I, in that moment, I repent of my sin. That's why I believe it was my conversion. Even though I knew truths before, my heart, I, I went over my sin. I repented. I vowed to the Lord Jesus. I will preach the true gospel. I'll serve you.

I'll do whatever you want me to do. I'll do it faithfully. I, I just want the true gospel. I'll serve you. I'll do whatever you want me to do. I'll do it faithfully. I just want the truth. And so I, in that moment, get up. I go kick my pastor's door in and I'm like, all of it is a lie. It's lies. He's like, sit down. What's going on?

I'm like, take a deep breath. Bro. And I'm like, we got to tell the world. We got to take them all down. We got to expose this. People are getting. And I'm like, we gotta tell the world. We gotta take them all down. We gotta expose this. People are getting... And he's like, Costi, sit down. He said, so, first of all, you're not gonna do anything.

I'm like, got it. And he's going somewhere with this. He said, God is sovereign, right? I'm like, yes, that's what I'm saying. He's like, and he's got a handle on his gospel. He's got a handle on his church. And long before this, people have been coming to this realization. I'm like, okay. And he said, what do you want to be? What do you want to do? I said, I want to be a pastor. I want to serve the Lord like we're doing, but for real now. And he said, okay, well, what does a pastor do? And I said, you know, shepherd the flock, preach, preach the truth, preach the Bible.

And he's like, all right, so, so here's what's going to happen. You you need to We need to like make you not a pastor in that process. So they make me a pastor in training. They take away my title. I I get converted. I believe I was my my pastors the church rallies. They're so sweet to me. I get legitimately baptized because a friend said so have you been biblically baptized since your true conversion? I'm like, no, what do you mean? I got baptized at 12 at a youth group camp because a girl I had a crush on was getting baptized.

I gotta get back, they're like, well, I was like, I'm already a pastor though, this is embarrassing. And the guy said, well, Martin Luther was a priest when he got converted, lots of people. I'm like, oh man, so this whole thing, I didn't wanna hide it. And so that was my conviction was, I'm gonna get baptized for lots of people. I'm like, oh man, so this whole thing, I didn't wanna hide it.

And so that was my conviction was, I'm gonna get baptized for real, not cause I'm at camp just, you know, doing something to show off. I'm gonna get legitimately baptized. I'm not gonna hide my story. And I'm just be honest, whatever that means. And so fast forward a short time later,

I start driving up the freeway to Talbot and taking my beginner Greek and being on campus and was serving in our church. And then we kept having babies. And by baby number two, I ended up transferring to Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary finishing online because I didn't wanna to leave our church.

And I was working full time at that point as a church, as they made me a pastor again a couple of years later, legitimately. And I was studying, had assignments, the elders oversaw my whole process. And so I ended up, yeah, going to seminary, graduating, I'm getting my doctorate now and finishing up my doctoral dissertation.

But all in all, I'm a pastor, I wanted to serve the Lord. And along the way, you know, Christianity Today or some others, it was like, I was able to share my story and people would often say like, Hen, you know you got the same last name as that crazy faith healer guy, that's so funny, you're a pastor too. Like, yeah, they're like, you're not related, are you? Like, yeah, he's my uncle. And they'd go, wait, what?

So sharing the story, eventually Zondervan said, hey, would you do a book on the faith healer? And I said, yeah, you're not related. Are you like, yeah, he's my uncle. And then go, wait, what? So sharing the story, eventually Zonderman said, Hey, would you do a book? Give the testimony, take us into the nitty gritty, but then teach the truth. Talk about money the right way. Preach on and then I finished the book with an evangelistic chapter because it drives me nuts. Drives me nuts when people throw stones, but offer no insight, and they don't wanna reach people or win people. They don't wanna just win arguments.

And so for me, it's about serving faithfully. And that's a long story, but that's how it happened, man. Well, it's compelling. You're an amazing storyteller, and in some ways you just scratched the surface of the story that you tell in your book, which just gripped me in the same way. I have a ton of questions for you, but give me the Twitter response really quickly,

because when someone asks me about this, I can talk for a long time. What are you studying your dissertation on? What are you doing your academic research on? Yeah, so for me, mine is an emphasis on preaching, and my project is titled, long titles, equipping, or holiness without hypocrisy, equipping Shepherd's House Bible Church to be a righteous church without a self-righteous attitude.

I love it, I love it. So it fits within your story, but you're localizing it, how you do this. So when that's done and that's out in the book, we'll have that conversation. I'd love to. But your story is obviously one about God's sovereignty. It's one about the authority of scripture. But when I look at your life from the outside, whether it's family pressure, whether it's economic pressure, social pressure, you had every reason not to resist this and change in a sense and reject that gospel.

Obviously the Holy Spirit and God's sovereignty is the main force here, but if you had to just look at this from any other angle, am I missing anything that gave you the courage and strength to resist this? When the vast majority of people would just go along with a script, given the incentives in your kind of background? All I can think about is love for Jesus. He became everything.

We ended up on food stamps. Sometimes people will say, like, this guy needs to, he's never been poor. You know, he went straight from, this is one of the criticisms I'll hear sometimes. He went straight from, you know, that famous family to then writing books and now he's never been poor. You know, we went straight from, this is one of the criticisms I'll hear sometimes. He went straight from, you know, that famous family to then writing books. And now he's rich. I'm like, first of all, you don't get rich from writing books, just FYI.

But second, there was a long process between, and we were on food stamps. Just cause I lived in Orange County didn't mean we were rich. We were dirt poor. We were house poor. We lived in a dingy apartment and served and considered ourselves missionaries there in that sense that we hadn't, I was like, I might as well go live in a third world country. The way we lived, we were on food stamps.

I had experienced where we had to put food back at a Ralph's or a grocery store there. I drove a car that someone in the church sold me for $1. They gave me an orange Suzuki Reno. And I rode my bike to the office. We went through all of that. And Sean, I'll tell you what,

getting made fun of by my family when my son, Timothy, who's now cancer-free and doing great, but Timothy got diagnosed with a rare form of cancer at three months old, one of my boys. And I put that story in the book more than a healer because I was fighting for the fact that Jesus heals, but he is so much more. And so the second book was more than a healer

and I shared the story of Timothy and my wife and I just going, God really is sovereign. Like we've said it and it's been kind of, you know, it's a book and whatever, but now we're living it even more. It's not just leaving the family. We're facing something lots of people do. And so in all of that, I'll tell you this, Jesus is everything. I can't tell you if there was a moment where I ever thought, yeah, I'll just go back. It would have been easier. I never, I thought I was rich

because I had the Lord. I thought my family was broke because even though they were rich they didn't have the real Jesus and the real gospel and so That's it man. It was all about the Lord. And so in those moments when people were like You know, you gave up a lot or man. What was that? Like yes, it was hard There were many times where I cried out to God. I remember one time driving on a freeway in California, shouting, where are you? I need you. Where are you? I was praying, I was crying out to God and I was crying.

It was such a hard season. Everyone left, we were getting death threats. There was, people said, I just hope your kids survive. People were prophesying curses on us for touching the Lord's anointed. Brutal, but in all of that, he, he was my source. And so affection for Jesus anchored the ship when the waves were battering. Such a good answer.

I love that. If, if you're, if you're willing to share, what was that conversation like when you went to your uncle your dad and just said I'm out I don't believe this anymore. I think the Bible teaches something else and this is a false gospel Yeah, what happened? I Was told how dare you yell yell that? We've been doing this for 40 years. I was, I was, you know,

we're the greatest man of God in our generation. How dare you go against family? Why would you do this? Who bewitched you? Did John MacArthur, is he paying you? Who got to you? That Baptist school, huh? See, I knew you shouldn't have gone. The Lord put it on my heart. He told me to be careful and this is what happens. This is why. And all, I mean, every excuse in the world

that basically I was the Galatians who has bewitched you. And you just, you're crying and saying, I have friends though who can help you. Oh yeah, we don't wanna talk, you just, you're crying and saying, I have friends though who can help you. Oh yeah, we don't wanna talk, I bet your friends will help us like they helped you. And like people would, they're not hateful. They just love the Bible and the truth and the gospel. I'm telling you, like there's so many people I meet now

that, and they wouldn't hear it. And so I was cut off completely. And some family members who went to other, I have family members who went to the Bethel supernatural school of ministry. And so a lot of stuff that Mike Winger has done has been so helpful. And with that, and they weren't allowed to talk to me

because they teach there and did before, well, one of my siblings was at their school of prophets that if you get around someone like me, it's like the church of Scientology, the suppressive person. If you get around someone like me, I'm gonna ruin the anointing on your life. So the same prophecies lobbed at my wife or at me.

And so there was some serious distance and by God's grace, not with the whole family yet, but there are particulars with my siblings, my parents, we have good conversations some of them closer than others and all because more and more the truth is permeating not from me but just I think the Lord in His kindness is bringing things to light like when people get exposed. It's, you know, watching the comments that you get and Mike and others, you know, oh, your ministry was so good. It was so helpful. And then you had to go bring this. I don't know what your crusade is about for this and why, and you just lost a follower. When that's happening,

just know I am sorry for you guys in one sense, but I'm not. I'm proud of you. I'm like, yeah, that's actually what it takes sometimes. You've got to, change comes through resistance. We don't go to the gym and have an easy workout. We have a strong workout. We're a little sore and we grow from it. And if you're my friend, you'll tell me something hard.

Proverbs says, Faithful are the wounds of a friend, Deceitful are the kisses of an enemy. So, Sean, you gotta tell me hard things sometimes so I can get uncomfortable and grow. And so when I see you guys doing that, it's par for the course. But we went through a ton of that and you just gotta trust the Lord.

I love that. Now, in some ways you've answered this, but I want to hear you kind of state it. Some people make a distinction between prosperity theology that might be certain bad non-biblical ideas that have consequences for the way we live, but maybe don't corrupt the gospel within itself, and the prosperity gospel that itself is a different gospel. Would you accept that kind of distinction? Is there something to that? How would you make sense of that kind of framing?

I don't know. That's not clicking for me. Will you help me more understand that first part? Yeah, so I think maybe somebody would say something like, you know, the gospel of Jesus dying for our sins and we accept it by faith and we are saved. The core gospel is there, but the Bible also promises healing to those who have faith. So the core gospel is present, but then it's added on top of something else. I go, Whoa, whoa, whoa.

That's not biblical. Oh yes. Yes. I don't, I don't, I'll start with this. Just a blunt statement, brother, but I don't like gospel plus. I don't, I don't like the true gospel with, uh, healing guaranteed in the atonement or the reason for this, because look, right now, okay, I have a mortgage, we live in Arizona, sorry, the housing market's a little,

was a little cheaper when we moved here than California. A lot cheaper. I drive a car, you and I are in, most of us are, top what, five, 10% of the world, if you just make a normal, good, hard-earned salary and you live in a nice neighborhood, and by nice I mean not the slums, and you drive one car, you own one car,

I'm pretty sure we're in the top 10% of the world. Okay, let's say that. I wanna be careful getting sucked into the notion that any of that is because I'm obedient to God, or because I'm a Christian, or my kid's doing good in school because you don't want to have gospel plus. You believe in Jesus, but hey,

you know, when you walk in obedience, God's gonna bless you, He's gonna favor you. If you give, oh, why is your marriage on the rocks? Well, are you giving your 10%? Like, whoa, whoa, hold on now. Well, that's not heresy. I'm just saying, if they're obedient, that wouldn't be happening.

I'm sorry, but Johnny Eric Santada is very obedient, and she's not not heresy. I'm just saying if they're obedient that wouldn't be happening I'm sorry, but Johnny Erickson Tata is very obedient and she's not getting her healing and I Was obeying the Lord when our son went through cancer and then what did I did I obey him more when Timothy got cleared? And a doctor told me here in Arizona when we left California came to Arizona Did I come to the promised land and now we moved to Arizona we're obeying God we're in his favor we Did the right things and the doc says yep those cells Sometimes they just you know, and I was like no I don't what know what and he's like, uh You know I Cured and I said in my theology we call that God healing he's like, you could call it that if you want.

He's a nice conservative type. And like, what did I do to get that? And so what I wanna caution against, I would not make the distinction, but yeah, it's no big deal. I would be careful of gospel plus American dream if you boom, because then what happens, and this maybe is more of my pastoral argument because of the heart for people

What happens is you get disillusioned? people who have been successful and they obey God and they're they're Materially wealthy and they think their whole life now Deuteronomy says God is the one who gives the ability to earn wealth and wealth is a responsibility God is the one who gave it, but he didn't give it because you were so good He gave it because he entrusts you with it and expects you to be a responsible steward So I tend to push back against the well, I'm getting the gospel, right? But you know it some of the other stuff maybe we don't agree on and here's why I push back

When I got saved and I started talking to different brothers and sisters, I heard one brother in particular, he said, hey, let me just tell you something real quick so we're clear. I have heard your uncle preach a better gospel message than some of my Baptist friends who are preachers. It's not that that concerns me. It's all the other stuff that he attaches to it and

How he derails so many other things and even a broken clock is right twice a day. I was like who? Okay, I think I'd want to I'd want to be careful there of Adding anything and then but there are theological answers for those things as well. We just don't want to conflate it all into, well, this is what it means to follow Jesus. Man, He's going to make your life so much better. Like, well, spiritually, but you could get diagnosed with something

and you could get healed, but you might not. You want to be careful. That's a really good balanced way to look at it. My concern is I did my dissertation on the death of the apostles. And so I read through the entire New Testament and just started noting how often the Bible says the followers will suffer and they'll be persecuted and they'll experience hardships.

And honestly, I didn't grow up with the prosperity gospel preached in my home, but I was amazed. I thought, wow, how did I miss how prevalent and central this is? And I think some of the power is God can heal and he does. But it's actually when we suffer well and believe in God amidst it. That's a testimony to the world that says, whoa, how do you have hope amidst this? And when we say God's going to heal everybody,

number one, we shame those like Johnny, Eric, and Tata who are not, and it makes other people question the goodness of God and their faith in Him. So I have huge problems with it on that level. How many people have reached out to you? I know you've taken just unbelievable, you described just hatred and criticism, but how many people, public or not public, have reached out and just said,

hey, I want you to know I'm with you. Good job, this is important. Or people that were in the prosperity gospel have kind of heard your story and be like, whoa, I didn't see this and come out because of it. An insane amount of people compared to the critics and that's saying something because there's a lot of critics.

I say that even to make sure that people understand. Don't feel bad for me. I'm in the family. I won. I got Jesus. I got saved. Like we're winning. There's, yeah, a lot.

I think it's important to think through a great quote by many older, wiser men. You're never as bad as they say you are. You're never as great as they say you are. There's an element of this where, when brothers and sisters reach out, more often than not, I'm being encouraged. And I think in the beginning, whatever that was,

whether it was part of the enemy's strategy or I'd kicked a hornet's nest that the devil was just not gonna to let me get out there and not be stung. Probably for the first five years, just a punishing amount of persecution, of lying, slander, attacks, threats, and I'll call it suffering in that sense. And moments where our faith was tested,

and that's what I wanna really press in on, and you did the same thing, you talked about the apostles. Our faith was being tested, maybe a better word, proven. And so when your son, when that happens, my thought was not, I gotta trade it in. Like, okay, that's the last straw.

This has gone far enough. I can't do this anymore. I'm going back. Nope, nothing, nothing could make me turn my back on Christ. And so my faith was being tested, because it was genuine. That was rough. Now, every so often, you know,

I get people who test me. I have one particular, I get people who test me. I I one particular They have a pastor and so when one individual comes to our church, we love them and they're there with us Now member of our church when they first came Demanded a meeting with me right away. I said, okay and all these questions that I'd already answered and it seemed a little interesting and Ended up and I answered them all and was like, okay, great, two hours later,

I was like, I don't know if we needed to have that meeting, but those were interesting questions that were easy to answer. Send me an email, three months later, hey pastor, I'm sorry. So didn't believe you were the real deal, thought you were still a phony, so I needed to test you and I'm sorry, that was wrong.

And I was like, guys, you don't, and so there's still moments today where people come up to the church and they've been there for a little bit. They're like, you know, I gotta tell you something, pastor. I'm like, what? And they're like, you know, I know there's a lot of people here that don't know your backstory all the time and they're just here, you priest or,

look, I know all about you, I followed your uncle. And yeah, I thought you were a big phony. But we love you, you're our pastor. And so you're never gonna get away from that. And then another moment, even when I spoke up a little about Trump's appointment of Paula Wyatt, and I said, I'm thankful for the administration, I'm thankful for America being more conservative,

I'm thankful for some of the gender things, I really appreciate it, and I'm not ashamed to say that. And yet, I'm also going to call a spade a spade. And it was an L to put Paula White in there because it puts a prosperity gospel preacher in a position of authority to represent faith. And that tells you, got it. And people were so mad. How dare you and always judging.

And it's like, you know, one people were so mad. How dare you and always judging. And it's like, you know, one lady protested the church not long ago about something. It just, there will never be a shortage of that, but there are so many moments of encouragement and just serving the Lord, man. I love it. Really appreciate your boldness and your clarity.

Now some people are like, all right, I wanna to hear more can people follow the podcast of your church Are you online you blogged you have a YouTube channel tell us about that and then just briefly your new book Which really is the most recent book walking in God's will Yeah, so we launched a ministry in 2020 in order to because media has always been a passion of mine and We launched a ministry in 2020 in order to, because media has always been a passion of mine and making sure that people have opportunities like I did to go online and find answers and get a lot of help. I had a pastor, of course, and he was pivotal,

but so we launched a ministry called For the Gospel. And I'm the founder, that's the shirt I'm wearing. But we, the tagline is sound doctrine for everyday people. And that's a little nod to Chuck Swindoll who used to say, my job is to bring the cookies down from the top shelf. So appreciate big words, love education, I have one, but I'm an everyday guy, we're everyday people.

So it's sound doctrine in everyday language. So I have the podcast on Monday. We put out a lot of videos and teaching on all the social media platforms that are short, reals, and then we have longer form on YouTube. And then we just translated the ministry into Spanish in order to reach more people. And so we have Por El Evangelio,

and that's already a number of the videos on Facebook alone have been viewed one to two million times, which has just blown our minds. That is such a need and a passion in Latin America. And then our church, Shepherd's House, the preaching, we have the preaching podcast, the sermons are on there and then books as well. And so just trying to use media well and leverage it

because I saw it used, I saw it done with excellence, but for false teaching back in the day. And I thought it'd be kind of fun if it was sound doctrine but it still looked great and I think you're doing the same thing. I'm grateful to get to be a part. Well thanks so much for coming on. Thanks for being generous with your time and sharing your story. We'll definitely have to do it again. Want to encourage folks to follow you on all those different platforms. Pick up a copy of your book, Walking in God's Will. Some of the top questions I get are, what is God's will?

How do I find it? How do I live it? How do I discern it? And of course, that's a heart of what you talk about in here and really say, it's not that hard if we just go to the scriptures, but that's a conversation for another time. We'll do it again, Kosty.

Folks, before you click away, make sure you hit subscribe. We've got some other channels coming up. We're going to be revisiting near-death experiences. We're going to be going back to the Dead Sea Scrolls, talking about biblical sexuality, the resurrection, and so much more. If you thought about studying apologetics, we'd love to have you at Talbot. We talk about defending the faith, but also have good Bible and good theology mixed in there as well. Information below. Kosty, it's a joy. Thanks so much for coming on.

Thanks, Sean. Keep up the good work.