The Sean McDowell Show - Ex-Muslim LEAVES her Faith to be a Christian

Episode Date: February 28, 2025

Why would a Muslim leave her faith to become a Christian, even though it cost her everything, and she received threats from her family? Kenza Haddock had dreams about Jesus that shook up her Muslim beliefs and motivated her to follow Christ regardless of the cost. But there is much more to her story that she shares with Sean in this interesting and moving interview. Join us! READ: The Ex-Muslim's Guide to Christianity (https://amzn.to/48WHnVI) Don’t forget to like this video, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and ring the notification bell so you never miss a future upload! *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: @sean_mcdowell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org

Why would a Muslim born and raised in Morocco and told that apostates would be put to death become a Christian? What supernatural experience did she have that convinced her Jesus was coming back at the end times? And what encouragement does she have for other ex-Muslims? Our guest today is author Kenza Haddock. She's written an intriguing book called The Ex-Muslim's Guide to Christianity. Kenza, thanks for coming on. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited. Well, I've been looking forward to this for a long time, and I know my viewers are going to find your story just fascinating and intriguing and moving.

So let's jump in. But before we talk about your journey to Christianity, let's start with your family. Give us kind of the backstory of where you grew up and what your family was like. Yeah, so I grew up in an Islamic household. I was actually born in Casablanca, Morocco and no it's not like the movie Casablanca. I've been asked. I'm like no that's more so like the nice version of Casablanca. And so growing up, I mean, I remember from, for as long as I could remember,

I knew that I was born Muslim and I was to die Muslim and that Allah willed it that way. I mean, that was drilled into me from, for as long as I could remember, probably toddlerhood. And so I remember believing that my whole goal in life was to earn salvation. My family was Muslim and they wanted to make sure that we followed the pillars of Islam. And so, you know, that revolves around prayer. It revolves around fasting Ramadan, especially making sure that we obeyed our parents because

obedience to one's parents, especially in Islam, was big. And I just remember we moved from Morocco to the States when I was about the age of 12, and right around that time my parents became very paranoid about one of the kids turning away from the faith. Because I mean, think about it now, looking back, it's understandable because we went from a primarily Muslim country to now we move to the States to a melting pot. And now we were more so acculturated to the American culture. We were more exposed to other religions. And there was talk about freedom of religion.

And so my parents, even then they were like, you know, you were born Muslim, you die Muslim, Allah is watching you. And so around teenage years, I remember I started feeling anxious because I mean, I knew that Allah, who was my God then Was like a spiritual Pharaoh and he was watching me But at that like once they started drilling that into me I started feeling like I was under a microscope even more so and so Sean I would miss prayer time because you know Muslims have to pray five times a day So I remember I would miss prayer time And so by the second prayer of the day, if I missed prayer number one,

I would feel this cloud of shame over me because it's so climbing up this ladder in order to win salvation or earn it. Because for some reason, Muslims think they can and that's what I believed. And it was, think of the best word to describe it the best adjective was exhausting the Islamic that's exhausting. That's really helpful. Now I've been in California almost my whole life, but I was born in Dallas. And I moved at age four. So I have like three or

four images of that period in my life. You were 12 when you came to California. What are some of the images or experiences that just define who you were that stand out about living in Morocco before you came to the States? Oh man, as you were saying that, one of the first things I thought about was I would be sleeping, like dead asleep, and in in Morocco like the first The first prayer of the day is at about 430 in the morning Oh, yeah, and so it starts like at from the mosque I mean, it's the the man starts screaming saying prayer is better than sleep Wake up Allah is counting your prayer time and And it's like this fear as literally, I forgot that feeling up until you asked that question.

Sorry. That's like one of the first, like that's one of the biggest experiences that I remember of that. Other than that, it's more so, Islam caters more to men than women. Even the culture, I remember it takes two witnesses, two women witnesses to equate to a male witness. And yes, it caters to men a lot. I remember reading the Quran as a Muslim and just reading it and you're not supposed to question anything.

And I was known as more so the rebel because I would question a lot. And I remember one time I dared to question. I asked my mom, I was like, why does Allah hate Jewish people so much because I know, I got into trouble because like 70% of the Quran was like this hatred toward Jewish people. And it was just so much so to the point where it's like, you feel like you can't befriend anyone who is of Jewish descent. So it was like that.

That's what I remember most about my life in Morocco. It's very isolated, very Islam-focused. You have to make sure you follow all these rules. Everyone is watching you. And I was more so the bottom of the barrel because I was the baby of the family. So I really don't. Were you excited to come to America? Were you fearful? What was your feeling and mindset? That's a huge shift from the food to the culture to the education to the language on every level. What were you thinking as you moved to America at probably about sixth grade or so?

Yes. So I wasn't allowed to question much. All I remember from my parents were, we're moving to the States to give you a better life, and that's it. And the problem is, it was an exciting experience. And when we got here, I was excited. But then it shifted.

Their mindset almost shifted because then they became very paranoid about, oh, you're hanging out too much with this friend or that friend because now they're going to influence you into other religions. And so I was excited, but then as I became excited, my life became more isolated because Muslims almost have to stick together. They want you to stick together with other Muslims and so you live this isolated life.

And that's why it's harder for a Muslim to leave. It's like a cult. Well we'll get to some of that. I know you have a lot to say in the way you tell in your book, The Beginning. There's a pretty powerful backstory that is there. So you're excited, you're coming America, you're apprehensive in some sense. Would your parents have been more worried if you kept your Muslim faith but adopted certain American ideas or kept certain kind of Muslim Middle Eastern traditions, but left your Muslim faith, which one would have concerned them more? Oh

You don't leave the Muslim faith at all. That's a that's that's a violation of apostasy law. Oh Yeah, no, no, I mean I Was already as a Muslim. I mean I was already getting in trouble for adopting some of the American culture. And it's, I mean, looking back, how do you not? You move to the States as a child, not adopt some of the American culture. But leaving Islam, that's a big, that's a huge no. You don't do that. That's like shaming the family and they see it as you're a traitor. And so if you had to pick between one or the other, I would say the first. By far. Okay, got it. Do you have

a sense of how far back the Muslim faith goes like with your grandparents and great-grandparents and like way far back. Do you know some of that history? If so, tell us about it. I don't know. My understanding was ever since, I don't know, yeah, I don't, they never said that we had any Christian great great great great relatives at all or or Jewish or of any other Religions, so I just knew Islam. I thought they were all born quote-unquote Muslim It's it's it's incredible how yeah now that you're asking that question. I never asked I just thought oh they were all born Muslim Yeah, now that you're asking that question, I never asked. I just thought oh they were all born Muslim

Yeah, so I have are it runs deep religiously and culturally in your heritage and everything about your life Was that from the womb all the way forward? So did you know any before you came to the states? Did you know any christians or know any jews or any buddhists or atheists? Who else did you know outside of the Muslim faith, if anybody? Before I came to the States, no, I didn't know any Christians because I was not to associate. In fact, I remember my family and I would travel to Spain for just vacation and evangelists would be out there handing out tracts and my parents would stop them and they would take the tracts and throw them in the trash because of how

much they wanted to make sure they said they were protecting us from, you know, deception or anything like that. I mean, it was to the point to where I had never held a Bible in my hand because my parents forbade it. And so that's how far removed I was from Christianity. It was, Sean, it was, this is how embarrassing it was. I saw a manger scene about a year prior to my conversion to Christianity and I didn't know who the baby was. I didn't know. I didn't know. That's how much I didn't know about Christianity because I wasn't allowed to delve into it. I wasn't allowed to talk about it. It was... Muslims just stick together that way. It's incredible. Now of course within Islam, Jesus is a prophet, was sinless, born of a virgin, but they're

not gonna celebrate the birth of Jesus in that story in the way that Christians do. So if I'm hearing you correctly, you're always an inquisitive person, asked tough questions, but you really believed that you were a Muslim as you left at 12. How quickly did things start to change when you're in the States? When was the first thing that gave you a little bit of pause, so to speak, about that? So two things were happening simultaneously. As I was trying to satisfy the pillars of Islam, I mean honestly my sinful nature was getting in the way. I knew I was a sinful person like for example

I would try to pray five times a day and I would go to seven times to to sort of yeah It's a sort of just accumulate extra points But then the next day I wouldn't pray because I just didn't feel like it and it was it was such a difficult Position so that for one I was battling with oh goodness, I have to do this my whole life. This is like, the yoke is so heavy for a Muslim, right? That's one thing. But I, again, doing that and living like that, I started believing that the God who has the power to sentence me to heaven or hell Started hating me because I was not satisfying the pillars of Islam. So that was happening So I was believing that God didn't like me and something else was happening. Also God when I say God I mean, he always started sending me dreams and one of the dreams he sent me Which I didn't catch on back then, was I would wake up the same time every night, literally the same time every night for a couple of nights

straight to someone saying, Kenza, and I would hear the phone ringing like the phone from the 80s, you know, like it's not like vibrating, you know, like like that. And someone saying, Kenza, your father father is calling you and I'd wake up Right the next night the same thing would happen The problem is I wasn't catching on because you don't see God as father in Islam. That's blasphemy I mean Muslims don't don't believe in that and so that was one of the dreams he sent me other dreams and I just was not catching on until I Was battling with so much depression so much anxiety

Sean I tried going to the mosque for relief. There was no relief in the mosque I tried listening to the Quran for relief. I tried reciting the Quran for relief Nothing brought me relief from an Islamic perspective nothing brought me relief from an Islamic perspective. And I just started crying out to God when I say God, I mean, at that point to anyone who would be willing to hear me and I started counting all my sins that I had that I could think of that God was counting against me and saying I'm sorry for it because I knew that I was a wretched sinner and I didn't deserve any of his favor and I

didn't deserve mercy but I just needed his mercy and shortly after that I had a dream that was I mean it was an incredible dream it changed my life I had a dream that it was the end times. And in that dream, I look out the window and I see heaven open and I saw a man in a white robe descending from heaven. And as I looked at that man, I realized he was Jesus. And as I looked at him, I was overcome by this peace that I had never felt before.

You see, prior to this, anxiety was my norm. Anxiety was my everyday life. But I look at this Jesus and peace just, I mean, it overtook me. And as I'm looking at him, he's coming down with his arms wide open. And I wake up. as I'm looking at him, he's coming down with his arms wide open and I wake up now. I wish I could tell you I woke up and gave my life to Jesus and everything was great But that's not how it went down So we'll unpack your story a little bit more right? How old are you at this point when you start having these dreams? I had I started I would say maybe 20 years old.

I had the dream about Jesus when I was 23. Okay, 23. So at this point, you had spent half your life in the States since you came at about 12. Yes. So you're, take me through like junior high and high school. Is this where some of the anxiety

and the depression just started slowly hitting? Were you practicing your faith then? Were you starting to doubt it? What was it like even before some of those dreams hit? Oh, yes, I was practicing. So I was, I became a great Pharisee. There was a week where I would over practice my faith, and then a week where I would just not practice Islam. I mean, there were days, Sean, where I would pray, like I said, seven times that day, and then at night, I would go to the nightclub, because I would rack up my sins and then make up for them the

next day. I mean, I was it was like balancing a checkbook. And I would wake up and then just hate myself for it. Because I just I felt like I could not get myself out of out of my own sinful nature. I could not get myself out of it. I was looking for some way to get joy and peace. And I turned everywhere the mosque, the club, the bar everywhere and peace. And I turned everywhere, the mosque, the club, the bar, everywhere and nothing. I mean, I even turned into new age practices and nothing gave it to me. Nothing gave it to me. And I am glad, I'm grateful the Lord allowed for all of that. He allowed me to go there, but I was able to see that none of that can give you what Jesus can.

And that is that piece. Now, were you keeping all this from your family? Presumably they're concerned about going out to clubs. They're certainly concerned about new age practices. Or were they just, were they not aware what's going on? Did they just turn a blind eye and were busy? What were some of those dynamics like? Oh, yes. So I would, yeah, they would turn a blind eye because Islam is like a, it's like balancing a checkbook. So as long as at the end of, in terms of my parents, as long as I'm obeying them,

as long as I do what they say, and as long as I don't leave the faith, then we're good. When I was in college, if I went out to the club, as long as I'm not posting it on social media for it to shame them, they didn't care what I was doing. The problem is I was in such a desperate state myself and my parents didn't believe in anything mental health related. They just said you know you have problems you need to keep them to yourself and just you know push them

down the rug and or go to the mosque and pray them out and And I tried doing that and it didn't work, so I went across the street to the club and that didn't work either. Now, I'm really curious about why and how you kind of pursued new age things because we're gonna get to some of the differences between Islam and Christianity, but there's a lot of things in common,

namely concern about dabbling in New Age practices, I would assume, are very important within Islam. So what was that decision like to do that, and why New Age as opposed to Buddhism or Hinduism or atheism? You know what's interesting? I didn't realize why I pursued New Age practices until I was talking with Melissa Dorothy. She asked me that question and it hit me in the interview.

So I pursued New Age after I had the dream about Jesus, interestingly and ironically, sadly, really. I mean, here's Jesus pursuing me, pursuing, sadly, really. I mean, Jesus, here's Jesus pursuing me, pursuing me, pursuing me. And the reason I did that is because of my grave misconception about the character of God, because I was so afraid that I'm going to go from one bully to another that I was trying to try almost like trailblaze my own path. I was trying to figure out if there's any other way. I was scared of going from one master

to another mean master. It's like getting out of a bad relationship and here comes Prince Charming trying to help you out and you're like, uh-uh, no, no, I don't know if I can trust you. That's the best way to describe that. And so, you know. Yeah, no, that makes sense psychologically. I get it.

A new age would seemingly offer like peace. They talk about spiritual practices, meditation, whatever those things you practice. This is promising what in a sense you're looking for. So you started first having dreams in your lower 20s, is that right? Yes. Would you have said at that point, even though you had this mental health challenges, would you have said I'm a Muslim at that point? Yes, absolutely. Okay, you would have. Were you aware of other ex-Muslims at all?

Had you talked with any? Had you heard about Jesus showing up in dreams? Like was that even anything you were aware of before it started for you? I had not the dreams factor. I had heard about some girl who made the news because she had left the Islamic faith. And at the time, I thought it was this terrible thing. Why would she leave the faith? She was 17 years old and she got caught up in the court system because she leave the faith? She was 17 years old and she got caught up

in the court system because she left the faith and she stayed at a pastor's home. I think her name is Rifka something. And so that was the only person I had heard of, but I didn't delve into her life or anything. So no, I didn't know any ex-Muslims. I wouldn't have ever associated with ex-Muslims because I was a Pharisee and that I would have looked at it know any ex-Muslims. I wouldn't have ever associated with ex-Muslims because

I was a Pharisee and that I would have looked at it like that's gonna you know give me some point deductions and I don't I already wasn't a negative I didn't need any more point deductions in my bank account spiritual bank account. So you're in the States did you go to a public high school were you in the university doing these dreams started? Like what tell us a little bit more about like your social life outside of Islam? Because presumably if you come to the States, most of your friends are not going to be Muslims unless maybe you moved to Dearborn, Michigan or something like that.

So what was what those relationships like and that educational experience for you like your teens and early 20s? like and that educational experience for you like your teens and early 20s? Yes, so I went to a public school. The problem is being raised and my family is you don't hang out with friends outside of the home. Like I wasn't allowed to go and spend the night somewhere. That was a huge, you can't do that. You can only have someone come and spend the night at your house. That's when I was in high school and junior high. That's a that's a big deal. You don't do that. But I befriended some people who I stayed away from people who proclaimed who were I'd say hardcore Christians, just because I didn't want to dive into the religious talks.

But I befriended people who said, oh, I'm Christian, but I'm still going to go to the club every once in a while. You know, I definitely stayed away from Jewish people because the Koran was against Jewish people. So I don't remember having one Jewish friend and that is sad, that is very sad that I made a conscious decision to not have any Jewish people, Jewish friends, because I was scared that I would be betraying Allah and and he would send me to hell for that. And that was a conscious decision

that I had made as a Muslim, unfortunately. So I remember that. Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. Were you in the university in the 20s when this started or were you working? Where were you at that point when the dream started? And then we'll jump into the dreams. Yeah, I was at ODU, Old Dominion University. And so my parents were very protective.

And so I had to drive back and forth, back and forth. And when I wasn't working with my parents, I would have jobs here and there, either at a call center or sales or marketing. But they were always on top of me. Like the car, for example, I drove was in my parents' name, even though I made payments on it. The cell phone I had was in my parents' name, even though I made payments on it.

So everything that a kid owns, even though it's an adult child, has to be in the parents' name so that the kid can never separate from the parent. That's part of the deal in the Islamic faith. It's Old Dominion in Mississippi. Apologize. I don't know. Is that right? Virginia.

Old Dominion. Oh, it's in Virginia. Sorry to everybody from Virginia, Mississippi. I just found out I'm a California boy. Okay. So you're in Virginia and emotionally you're just at a point where you're kind of desperate. Tell us a little bit more about just these dreams, how long they went on, the kind of dreams, how they affected you.

Yes. Yeah, see, the issue for me was I didn't understand what they meant. And so I would go to the Quran to try to translate my dreams because Muslims do believe in dreams. But going to the Quran to translate, like for example, a dream where someone is saying, your father is calling you, you're not gonna find that in the Quran because seeing God's father is blasphemy.

I also had another dream where I saw myself laid out in a hospital with a tag attached to my to my toe as if I'm dead and and there was this siren that was so loud and it was it was a flat line. And looking back that that indicated spiritual death. I mean, that was spiritually dead. So God was sending me it was like he was sending me these dreams showing me hey you're spiritually dead. It doesn't matter how many times you pray a day you're praying to the wrong God. But I was not catching on. But the dream about Jesus it was almost like wait a minute something is going on but it it's still because Islam is based on the foundation that the God of Islam has no son it is very hard for a Muslim to wrap their mind around wait a minute so I've been taught that God has no son my whole life and now I'm gonna to believe that God does have a son. And his name is Jesus and he died for my sins and therefore I am completely forgiven.

It's mind-blowing. I mean, it goes against our pride. It does. Yeah. I understand. Yeah. I understand. Yeah. So you've had dreams for a while, different ones. They're pretty kind of stark, shocking, you know, the kind you remember. The one of Jesus related to the end times is one that really got your attention. What did you do when you woke up from that dream?

Did you go find a Christian? Did you pray? Did you get a Bible? Did you, what did you do? What was the next step after that? Well, I went to the library. I was very discreet about it because I was not going to get caught looking up anything that had to do with Jesus. So I went to the public library and I looked up Jesus and dreams and everything. And, and I mean, I found information, but I still was not, I still was not catching on for some reason. I don't know if I was blinded, like if I was getting in my own way, or I just wasn't understanding.

Just looking back really salvation by by faith and the grace of God just I was not understanding that it's so it's such a hard concept for a Muslim who's so who's so used to trying to earn something who so used to be in a slave. I mean it's so hard for someone who's used to be in a slave to be called a son or daughter. It's such a hard concept. It really is. And so it took me about eight to ten months to finally say you know what I need to go try to understand who this Jesus is and I know I can't do it in Virginia. I need to leave town because it's not going to happen here. So what were you doing for that eight months? You were presumably thinking about this a lot. Were you singing back to the library, getting books, watching YouTube videos? Like what were you doing during that season?

Oh, I was delving into Islam. I was delving into new age. I was looking up videos on Christianity. I was literally, I was going in between Christianity, Islam, new age, Christianity. I was trying, I was searching, trying to figure out what the truth is because really, let me tell you,

I mean, going from Islam to Christianity is like, I mean, it is a complete 180. It really is. It goes against human comprehension. And also leaving Islam for a Muslim means leaving everything they had ever known. And so, you know, Jesus says to count the cost. And the cost for me when I finally made the decision was my mother, father, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles. I had a big family and, you know, the community, everything I had ever known and you know my identity was tied to that and I needed to just move and I needed to just hold on to some kind of hope hoping that this God is it for me. So what made it click? Were you reading a certain passage of the Bible? Was it a conversation with a Christian that explained grace in a certain way?

Was it a dream that you had? What was the moment you felt like, oh I get it, this is what I believe? It was so I had a friend who ultimately led me to Jesus and he never he was not a quote a quote unquote Bible thumper. He lived his life and he led by example. And, you know, I watched the way he loved his wife, the way he loved his kids. And I just, I saw that he had something

that Muslims didn't have. And I knew that he was a believer, he was a Christian. And he would talk to me when I was going through hardships and he would pray to his God while I was praying to mine, you know, and that goes back to, you know, being open to talking to Muslims. And so I don't know what really what clicked. It's just one day I just decided, you know what what enough is enough. I'm gonna go pursue Christianity and it was not planned. I just woke up and said, okay, I'm leaving. Goodbye So it really was a gradual slow process of thinking about things Although the decision was sudden there were a lot of factors that had led up to it

Yes, for you for sure Yes, okay interesting. So when you left, what did you what did you tell your family? Did you tell them what you were doing? How did they respond? I Did not tell them because if I had told them they wouldn't have let me leave I did not tell them because if I had told them they wouldn't have let me leave. Unfortunately, so I had to just leave town. And now prior to prior to this happening, I had to to make arrangements with the car. There were things that I had to do. And that's what took a little bit of time too, because the car was in their name.

So I had to buy my own car. I mean, and I had no credit because that's how it works in the Islamic, you know, imagine trying to buy a car with no credit because this whole time your parents were were buying your cars for you. And you know, everything was in your parents names. So I had to, I mean, God by his grace provided for me, really. And I just, yeah, I moved and I moved to South Carolina. And the reason I moved to Myrtle Beach is because it was between Myrtle Beach and Orlando, because I was in the timeshare industry. And those were big ones and so I moved and what's interesting is I didn't know how to get saved. I thought I needed to take tests and quizzes in order for me to get saved because I'm too stubborn to move in salvation by grace and faith.

Yeah, yeah that's not I mean it might sound crazy now on the other side, but at the time, given your experience and the faith you came out of, it's not, that's not a crazy belief. But so were you 23 when you left? Did I, is that correct? About 23? At the time, I had just turned 24, yeah. Had turned 24. Right, so you're working behind the scenes secretly to get all your ducks in a row and

then you could just split town and go so they couldn't stop you. Presumably after this they call and say, where are you? What happened? And you had to break it to them at some point. How did that happen? Well, I didn't really break it to them. they tried to break into my house is how it happened So I move here. I give my life to Jesus. I meet my who is now my husband We get married and all of this happened without you know hearing a beep from my Muslim family and hearing a beep from my Muslim family. And one day we hear this like, I mean, it was not a knock. It was more like banging on the door and windows.

And now my husband had already known, I had already prefaced, hey, listen, this is my story. This is my history. This is who you're marrying, just so you know what you're getting into. So there, and so my know what you're getting into. So there and so my husband wants to answer the door by having a logical conversation. I said you can't have a logical conversation with people who are trying to open windows and sneak into our home. Like we can't do that.

And I remember the first time Shawn the first time this happened. I was about maybe like two years into my faith with Jesus. So two years have passed. I was still, I would say, still a fresh Christian. I mean two years in. My understanding of God and my security and God's love was still on shaky ground. The first thing that came to mind as they were literally like banging on our doors, I thought they were going to break in, was what did I do to make God mad to allow this to happen? That was the first I thought in my mind, I thought I it was a cause and effect. I thought

I did something for God to punish me. And that's why he's allowing this to happen, not Hey, this comes, this is part of persecution. And so we called the police because we needed to have it on paper. I needed to have everything on record. And so I called the police and I said, hey, this is what's going on and if you can come. And the police officers were incredible.

They explained to, at the time, my mom and my brother that, hey, you know, you can't, you know, take her back. You can't, you can't. This is the United States. You know, we have freedom of religion. That's, you know, and it's almost like they weren't understanding what the police officer was saying. And finally, the police officer became, he was nice and he was also firm with them. He was like, look, you have no reason to be here. Where do you live? And they said, Virginia. He was like, okay, so then you have no reason to be in this neighborhood. So why don't you leave?

Because obviously you're not welcome in her home. And so they left and ever since then they have come back, not them, but they sent different family members to come back. My husband and I have a counseling practice and we have several locations across the state of South Carolina. And so they've shown up in our counseling practices, posing as patients in rental hands, saying that they're here to see me as a patient, because their hope is to snatch me back and convert me. And I understand their perspective, it doesn't make it right. It does not. I understand where they're coming from. They're coming from a place of fear because they truly truly believe that their everlasting life is at stake here because I left the faith. And so they're upset with me. The problem is I'm not converting back. I've made my decision. And so we're just they just don't keep keep coming and the Lord has been protecting us ever since.

Is there anything from the way you practice your faith that you miss, that you look at Christianity and you're like, you know what, I wish we had this, whatever that may be, just that you can go around the world and there's a mosque at a certain hour with the same prayers like Or is it just so traumatic and painful the background that you just have completely moved on from it? you know, I would say and that's a that's a really great question and I would say 90% of Islam was traumatic. There's one factor that I wish I experienced more of as a believer, and that is as a believer,

knowing just how much God has done for me and my brothers and sisters in the faith, I feel like we as believers don't talk about God as much. We don't spend time with God as much. We don't prioritize God as much. As a Muslim, I mean, God was like the, when I say God, I mean, Allah was like the number one priority in your life. I mean, you live and die for him. He's above your kids. He's I mean, obviously he's above your kids because my family would be willing to kill me. I mean, it's a they're allegiances to Allah and so I become a believer and this is I become a believer and I'm following a

God who sent his own son to die on my behalf. And I mean, you know, Romans 832 says if he did not spare his own son but delivered him up for us all, you know, Romans 8.32 says, if he did not spare his own son, but delivered him up for us all, you know, how can he not also with him give us all things, right? So he gave us his best in Jesus. This is a gracious, yes, holy, but also gracious God. And we take him for granted. And that has been one thing that I'm like,

what do you mean we don't talk about God all the time? So that is one thing I miss. Yeah. That's helpful. I took a group of students maybe 12 years ago to visit. We visited a few mosques and some Islamic centers and gone to conversation with Muslims and I'll never forget. One of my students took his Bible and put it on the floor beneath him. The Muslim walked over, picked it up, handed it to him, and he said, Yo, that's holy scripture. Don't put that on the floor. And I mean, my students were blown away by that and will never forget it.

And I get a point to other things like that, but that was a moment for them of taking God and his word for granted that that Muslim taught him a lesson. So I remember that well. What truth in Christianity that you learned God did not leave us as orphans You know God What when I left my my Family of origin he the Lord by his sovereignty

Stripped me of every title I had right That my identity was attached to every single title. And so that I could build my life on the foundation of the only title I needed and that is his daughter, right? And that's what I built my life on. And so I love that he left us the Holy Spirit and I love that he is ever present with us. I mean, there is in Islam, it was so transactional. It was you do this. It was so stagnant. We get to live with the Holy Spirit of the living God living in us and we get to ask him for wisdom and he doesn't shun us. I mean, he's just so gracious and so loving. And you know what? I'm grateful for conviction. I'm glad he convicts me because that's a reminder that he's there with me and he's like,

hey, you're out of line with who I called you to be. So I love that he's there. Now, this might be a question where you just have to speculate about it, but you described your practice of Islam feeling very much just rule-based and it was kind of exhausting and wore you out. Why don't more Muslims feel that way or express that way? Or do you think they do but just don't express it? Do they live the common difference? Do they just have a different experience of Islam than you?

If you had to piece that together, what would you say? The only thing I can think of is, you know, when you're... it's like the psychology of being brainwashed. When someone is brainwashed, they think that that's the only way of living. It's not that they like it, but they're so scared of speaking out against it because as a Muslim, if you're speaking out against a religion, you're speaking out against the God of that religion who has the power to sentence you to heaven or hell per se. That's what they believe. And so they're too scared. I think fear, they're plagued by so much fear that they're not going to say anything unless, you know, the Lord intervenes on their behalf. I'm curious where your courage came from. And I, in some ways, I shouldn't even compare these two. But I grew up with a father who's an outspoken apologist.

And I went through a doubting period and just kind of hit the point where I thought you know what I've got to tell my dad I'm not sure if I believe this. Now I was never afraid for my life. I knew he was gonna love me but there was certainly a level of like and I could disappoint my dad how's he going to respond this is his whole life he's committed to and his son's like yeah I'm not sure that I buy this. Like, that stands out to me. And your experience is it takes way more courage when it's gonna cost the things that it costs you to question those beliefs. Was there an experience in your life?

Was it just your experience with Jesus was so great? What was it you think that attributes to the willingness to say, I'm gonna sacrifice all of this as much as I value this, and I'm going in this direction even if it costs me? Well, when you think about it, the whole goal of my life as a Muslim was to earn salvation. And I had to basically like work myself to death

and I still was not earning anything, right? And then there comes this God who's saying, you know what, I have died and rose again from death so that you can have the free gift of salvation that you could have never earned. How could I not say yes? I mean, yes, that's worth everything to me. Was it hard? Absolutely, it was very difficult.

It was, it was very difficult to never see my family or never see any of them again. But it's worth it to know that I'm in good standing with the one true God and know that he loves me because that is one thing that I had always craved for. I just wanted to know that he cared about me and as a Muslim I just never felt that, never felt that from God. And so when I opened my eyes to the reality, when God opened my eyes really to the reality that he is the one true God who is offering me his grace,

who is offering me his love, and hey, I have to go run for it. I did. One of the claims that I hear a lot in my conversations with Muslims is that Christians and Muslims worship the same God. Now to me, I honestly don't understand that. I don't know if it's a combination of some Muslims really believing that and not understanding

the difference or if that's a way to evangelize Christians to make it sound like they worship the same God. And I don't want to impugn motives. It's probably some combination of both. But when you hear that, what do you say? How do you respond and what do you think? I say it's utterly impossible that Christians and Muslims worship the same God. Because in order to understand whether they worship the same God,

you have to look at the character of Allah and look at the character of Yahweh. And let me tell you, that was one of the hardest journeys I had to walk through in my conversion to Christianity, to the point where I still have to this day, I have a list of of God's attributes because I don't believe I'll ever become too seasoned to learn about God's attributes one of Allah's attributes is the oppressor right Allah is very much transactional Allah doesn't care about having a relationship. Allah doesn't claims he doesn't have a son. And so you can't say Allah and Yahweh are the same people. No, absolutely not. And then you look at you look at Yahweh and you see his attributes and look at the Trinity, God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, which is refuted in Islam. I mean, there are so many contradictions between Islam and Christianity,

and it's impossible that they're the same person. I believe that Islam was one of the devil's tools to stop the spread of the Gospel. And that's, you know, I mean, 600 years after the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus, Muhammad had that message given to him by, quote-unquote, an angel at a cave that said, oh, hey, wait, wait a minute. No, no, no. Jesus was not crucified. He didn't die.

I have this new revelation from Allah and people need to do all of these pillars and you need to go out there and tell them they need to do that. And so that lie and that deception started a movement that has now become the second greatest or biggest religion in the world. I mean, that's it's all deception. And I mean,'s, it's all deception. And I mean think about it, 1 John 4.3 says that any spirit that denies the deity of Christ essentially is the spirit of the Antichrist. And so yeah, Allah and God or Allah and Yahweh are not the same. Kenz, I've talked with dozens of Muslims and ex-Muslims and in every case but one

former Muslim specifically cited dreams as being pivotal. And many of the dreams of just Jesus namely showing up in a white robe. But I also got in line and I'm like, I wonder if there's any stories of former Christians saying that they had dreams of Jesus showing up to them and telling them to become Muslims. And I found not as many but I found a few people who say that. What do you make of when you hear stories like that? How do you process those kinds of stories? Kind of the reverse of your story. What do you

think of those accounts? You know, as I think about something like that, we cannot take a dream as the Word of God. We have to take a dream and take it to the Word of God and then decide whether that dream is from God or not. If it does not agree with the living, breathing Word of God, then we have to refute it. And so if someone has a dream that says, oh, no, you need to become Muslim, you need to take it to the Word of God and see what God's Word says. And if God's Word, obviously, is going to not agree with it, then throw that dream in the trash and remember what it says in the Bible that in the latter days people are going to abandon the faith and follow the semen spirits. And so yeah, don't do that.

What gives you confidence and we could do a whole show on this. I have a ton on my channel, but what gives you confidence that the Bible is actually the word of God as opposed to the Quran? Oh dear lord. Yes, we can do a whole show on that because I read the whole Quran and I had never felt anything from the Quran. Never. It's dead. The Quran is dead. When you read, so I'll say this, in order for me personally to understand the character of God, because that was very important to me in my journey from Islam to Christianity, to understand the character of God,

to understand the faithfulness of the Father and understand who he is, because I needed to build my identity from scratch and who I am is tied to who he is, right? His daughter, and I need to obey him and understand who he is. I needed to read the Bible chronologically for me, just so I could follow through God's word.

God, our God is faithful and he is consistent. His character is consistent from beginning, from Genesis to Revelation. You read the Quran Allah is unstable as unstable as can be and I'm just saying that as a not only as a as a Christian I'm saying it as a counselor he is unstable I mean even even Muhammad in his later in later in his life said I don't even know if that revelation was was real he even refuted that. And so, why are we sitting here believing something that someone doesn't even know is true or not?

You read the Bible and it's like you feel comforted because it's the living, breathing Word of God. It is. It just is. And I do believe what God says and God is his word. I actually encourage Christians, some professors and apologists don't, but I encourage them to read the Book of Mormon, read the Quran, read other scriptures and compare and contrast and actually read them charitably. My son this summer was like, "'Dad, I'm interested in reading the Quran.'" I said, "'Great, do it.'"

I contacted a friend of mine who's a locally momam. I said, if my son has questions, could we sit down with you and just talk about it? And he's like, totally. Now, my son's 20, so he's still working it through and finding time, and he's doing other stuff, but I encourage him to read it. And I would encourage Christians watching this, actually read it, charitably. And I would encourage Muslims to read the Gospels and to read the scripture and compare and contrast the person of Jesus, the character of God, the means of salvation. I think that's a helpful exercise to do. Now I'm an apologist, so I would also point beyond one's experience to manuscripts,

archaeology, history, fulfilled prophecy to make that case. But I agree with you that we should go to the text and read it and analyze it for what it is. Last question for you if that's okay. You've written this book, it's called An Ex-Muslim's Guide to Christianity. It's really it's kind of a 101 intro in a sense to Jesus compared with Muhammad the Bible in the Quran salvation like it's a great place to start for a Christian Who's interested in knowing more about Islam from a former Muslim, but it's specifically written to ex Muslims so it's written in a way of somebody who says, I experienced this and I saw this.

Here's the differences that I see. So for an ex-Muslim, it's just a great unique way, I think makes sense of your faith if you become a Christian. Have you had other ex-Muslims reach out to you? How many? Are you rare or do you sense that there's maybe more out there but they just haven't spoken up yet? What's your sense of that if you have a sense at all? You know there are many ex-Muslims and

ironically from, we brought up Michigan, from Michigan the Lord is doing a great thing and I spoke with Muhammad Faridi and he calls it the great exodus lately. He said Muslims are having an exodus of Islam. And I do believe that the Lord is waking Muslims up to the truth of the gospel. And I mean, it's found, that's found and it's a prophecy being fulfilled from Joel 2.25 when he says, in the last days I will pour out my spirit and your sons and daughters will prophesy, and it talks about visions and dreams. And so I do believe that God has waken Muslims up to the reality of the gospel. And so there are, yes, I've had people reach out to me

and I've seen that there are quite a bit on Muhammad Faridi's show. I had him on some time ago, his story is captivating and he focuses on talking with ex-Muslims. That's only one part of what I do here on his channel, but for people watching going, I want to hear more stories. I probably have a half a dozen on my channel over the past few years about Muhammad Faridi. He specifically goes into that and tells more stories, so make sure you check out his stuff.

Kenza, really appreciate you coming on. Thanks for the time. Again, the book is called The Ex-Muslim's Guide to Christianity. It's well done with Rose Publishing. I actually did a pamphlet with Rose Publishing about 15 years ago with Bill Dembski on intelligent design. So I've worked with them in the past. It's just it's a great wonderful beginning book on Islam from an ex-Muslim. People watching, make sure you hit subscribe. We've got some other stories like this coming up. We've got some other discussions, some debates on

apologetics and worldview issues. You won't want to miss it. If you thought about studying apologetics, we would love to have you at Biola slash Talbot, which is where I teach full-time. We have a master's program online and distance, and we also have a certificate program where we kind of just walk you through from formal training without the expense and the time of a master's big discount is below.

Kenza, thanks so much for taking the time to just come on and share your story. I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much. It was great.