The Sean McDowell Show - Explosive: Lovingly Confronting Silence & Arrogance

Episode Date: December 26, 2025

America is in a divided and angry moment. Should "niceness" be our goal? When is it right to confront another Christian and how should we do so? What is the key to balancing grace and truth? In this conversation, I talk with pastor and podcaster Shane Idleman about some of the toughest challenges Christian face today, such as: *What is the #1 sign of a FALSE prophet today? *Is confrontational Christianity biblical? *How can we speak up boldly and yet with appropriate gentleness? ARTICLE: Celebrity Christianity & Our Pathetic Failure To Confront It by Shane Idleman https://shaneidleman.com/2025/06/17/celebrity-christianity-our-pathetic-failure-to-confront-it/ *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [smdcertdisc] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

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Life Audio. It's so important to be filled with the spirit of God, to be humble, amen, broken, time with the Lord, in his word. And then from that reservoir of intimacy with him, you're going to know how to handle these issues. What just struck me is like a humility and a willingness to speak about your brokenness. Right. Before God uses a man greatly, he often hurts him deeply.

And so it's just a series of God just continuing to break and break. And it's going to be a process till the day. die. And actually, the more I broke, the more he used me. After the death of Charlie Kirk, there seems to be two general responses. One, now is the time to go on the offensive. The time for charity and kindness is over. Two, we need to talk with one another more than ever. And we need to calm down some of the rhetoric. Yes. Build bridges. I know that's a simplification. But tell me where you land. on that and why? I think, you know, and you might hear me say this a few times as we talk,

but it's so important to be filled with the Spirit of God, to be humble, broken, time with the Lord, in His Word, and then from that reservoir of intimacy with him, you're going to know how to handle these issues, because both cowardliness, not saying anything, and arrogantly beating people up with your words, both come from a fleshly desire. It's a flesh taking over. So I think on one hand, we need to speak the truth and love a lot more. But on the other hand, we've got to make sure it's the right tone, the rhetoric and the anger. I mean, America right now is extremely angry, but are we broken? You know, we're upset, but are we humble? And so I know some people won't hear that, but it needs to come from that type of heart because it's hard to say, here's how

you need to act. When, what about if my actions require silence and just loving the person listening to them. What about if my actions at a different point require me, you know what? I've had a, and you're going to say something, school board meetings or whatever's going I know. And so being sensitive to the leading of the spirit, because I don't think we can just throw a blanket statement on everything. You know, for example, if I said, yeah, speak the truth and love and fight back, and that's going to send the wrong message. But at the same time, don't say anything, just turn the other cheek. It's funny, Jesus didn't turn the other cheek when he was slapped. That's true. He said, why? What evil

by done? Why have you slapped me? And so I think there's no blanket approach, if that makes sense. It does. Yeah. So your approach is not going to be, for lack of a better, I guess, dictated by the cultural moment, whatever that is. No, not at all. Not in one bit. It's more like I get my life right before the Lord filled with the spirit. There's a time for grace. There's a time for truth. And that's the way it's always been since the beginning, the way it always will. Is that a fair synopsis? I think it is, but of course we have to be sensitive to where the culture is, because there is a time and a place to put on the big boy pants and say something. You know, or do, I mean, you look at where the state of our nation is. I think a lot of it

has to do with the silence in the pulpits. The pulpits are not to proclaim. You look at the top 10 pastors right now and watch their messages. You're not going to hear repentance, the blood of Christ, judgment, the cross, all these foundational things. So looking at the state of the church and the culture, I think it will require action, but also it has to come from the reservoir of that time spent with God. And I've noticed, maybe you have to, the more time I spend with God, the bolder I become. Interesting, right? Now, boldness doesn't always mean loud and in your face.

It sometimes means that gentle unwavering or that gentle pushback. And I've just noticed over seasons of fasting and spending time with God, the word of God comes alive like just last week when God told Jeremiah, don't diminish one word. Don't diminish one word. Preach what I've called you to preach. And you look at Jeremiah 23, the false prophets, actually a sure sign of a false prophet is saying, peace, peace. God's happy with our life. Don't worry, man.

God's not upset. He's a doting grandfather. He's a cosmic ball of love, peace, man. And God said, I've not sent these prophets, yet they ran. I've not spoken, but they spoke. But had they truly stood in my counsel, the word of God, they could have turned this nation back to me. My word's like a hammer.

It's like a fire that devours. So that's part of the tension, right? Is we are called to be peacemakers, but not false peace that avoids the truth of the gospel and sin before the Lord, et cetera. How we balance those two is kind of the constant tension. And I want to come back, not right now, but I want to come back to a few things you said about the purpose of the pulpit, which is really important today. It is, yeah. How being in scripture gives you more boldness.

But for me, I was thinking about this conversation. Some of the hardest issues that I deal with as an apologist are not violence in the Old Testament. And those are a legitimate tough question. They are, yeah. Not like the morality of, say, hell, how God could be justified with that or claims that the Gospels contradict. or scientific challenges to God, those are not the toughest ones. Right.

The hardest questions I tend to deal with are more personal for people and for myself. How do I balance grace and how do I balance truth? And our culture where there's such competing different worldviews, sometimes I'm like,

I don't know which voice is the best for right now. So good. So help me, and I have my response to that in some ways, but I want to know how you think about balancing grace and truth. And I would just frame it. You're right that there should be eternal principles, but we live in such an angry, divided culture, angry, divided church

that rewards people for responding in a certain way, which some ways militates against what should be a biblical approach. So what's your thinking through and how you balance grace and truth in your life and maybe with people in your church? You know, right at the beginning, what you just said is so important for people to realize, the reason it's easier for us to answer, you know, how could a loving God allow this in the Old Testament, wipe out the city? Or how do you know the Pauline epistles? Or how do you know the gospels are

accurate? Because there's a standard answer that's very, no matter who, I mean, your dad's book really helped me when I came back to the Lord on evidence that demands of verdict. Absolutely. I couldn't put that thing down. I highlighted it and it really internalized it. Oh, my goodness. But when it comes to these issues, it's like, where do you offer, you know, as one example, the pronoun idea, if I'm in Starbucks and I say, hey, thanks, he, he goes, I'm he, him. Probably not going to, you know, okay, thanks and have a good day. But if it's a constant, like, I'm working with him or I'm seeing him every day at some point, maybe I'm, Lord, what do you want me to do? I want to just have grace and love. but at the same time, this is, I can't personally do that.

And so maybe the boldness to say, hey, why do you say it? And open that conversation. So it depends on the situation. It depends on sometimes you need to speak up. But other times we need to offer that love and grace. So how do I find the balance? Well, number one, I know we're not Jesus. Amen.

He equally balanced truth and grace. But I also look at, I love context, which I know you do as well, context. And you actually challenged me. You probably don't remember this. About 10 years ago, we spoke together at Humulate. And I used, if my people are called by my name, humble themselves. And you said, that's really for Israel. I'm like, that's a good point. And so it is. Did I say that you? I don't even remember this. I didn't even know you. And I just said, I just challenged your. But that was, and I didn't push back because it's like, because you're right, because, you know, God said, when I bring pestilence, famine, drought, if my people are called

by my name. So you can have, okay, that context is Israel. But I think the principle, still applies. For example, if America humbled herself, but God judges people differently, nation, I mean, that's a whole other. Yeah, yeah. So my point is, I look at context of speak the truth in love, right? Well, if you look at the beginning and the end, it's about maturing and growing up in the faith. So it's like we must speak the truth and love in order that people mature and grow up in the faith. Ironically, I'm driving here this morning, and I had this perfect example. A friend of mine spoke for me last night on Wednesday night, his name's Chris, and I challenged him over a decade ago because he was involved with what I say,

hyper charismatic, you know, kind of, and I, and I just lovingly, times I would, but I say, man, you've got to just be careful because, and then he, now he thanks me. But back then, it was a little, and you're not overly, you know, pushy, but like, hey, have you thought about this? So to answer the question more directly, each situation requires Probably, and I have to watch it because if I'm moody, if I'm going to, I mean, type A personality. And I mean, you talked about this, which we agree on. There are different callings. Yeah. You know, your calling is going to be maybe more gentler and more just love, you know, John the Beloved,

where God's wired me is John the Baptist. Right. So I'm going to be a little bit more in your face with the sermons. But I see the fruit. I see the change lies. I see that. And so knowing I can't equally balance that tension. I don't think, man, I've lived perfectly this week. I perfectly balanced grace and love and grace and truth. So speaking the truth and love when it needs to be said, spending that time with God, I think the New Testament's clear. You err on the side of grace.

I think we could agree. If you're going to err, you're probably going to err on the side of grace, but there comes a time and a place where you've got to speak the truth and love. And what does grace look like? It doesn't mean sweeping sin underneath the carpet. it. It means, to me, grace means, hey, you know what, I know you fell. We've talked about it before. You know where I stand, but you know what? You've got to get back up and keep fighting. And so you were able to lovingly rebuke. And so that's what I do at my church. It depends what the person's

going through. If I've got a dad who's unrepentant, I'm going to, I'm going to shoot him pretty straight. And look what you're doing to your family. Look what's costing your kids. And I'll put on this, you know, but if there's another guy just came in and he's struggling with alcohol and he fell again. and man, just get back up, get to that altar. So it depends on really where the spirit's leading me. I mean, that's not a cop-out, but I think it's, you know, and being careful because our emotions play a role in that, too. I don't think that's a cop-out.

I think we all want a line of exactly what we're supposed to do. It's natural, but life is messy. Yes. Part of my answer, when I get asked this question is I say, we're going to have to live in the tension of grace and truth. And if you're not living in that tension, either you're probably speaking too much truth or showing too much grace in the sense of not speaking truth.

True. So there's kind of a natural push and pull because I hear new circumstances. I hear new issues. I'm in the moment. So I think all of us are going to have to live in a certain tension. But the other piece I also think is we were an event, I don't know, six or eight weeks ago, Pastors Conference for KKLA. And you also said something that's been in the back of my mind.

you said to me you said i'm more like referring to yourself a john the baptist right you might be more like a john the beloved right and i that like really hit me i've been thinking about that because i remember a spiritually pivotal moment for me is i was sitting here at biola in eagles nest and i was reading a book by brennan manning and he made a point that seems so obvious now but at the point was game changing he said spiritual maturity for different people will look different different based on their giftings. And for me at that point, spiritual maturity was my father. Right.

And so I thought if I'm not as bold as he is and I had certain characteristics that define him, then I'm not spiritually mature. And I remember reading that going, oh, my goodness, there are certain spirits of the fruit in his life I want, but I'm also wired differently. So it might look a little bit differently. Do you agree with that when we talk about like the tension between grace and truth, we have different wiring, and it's not going to look the same for you as it does for me. And should we celebrate that?

Maybe we go wrong when we think I'm a truth teller. And if everybody's not like me, then they're airing. That's what I think concerns me or on the flip side. So it's like, I just, I show grace. Everybody needs to show great. It's like, yeah, but I do have a prophetic voice. And this person needs to repent. That's kind of what I see.

Your thoughts. Yeah, it's exactly you summed up well because how God is wired. us. And I think what this conversation started with you, I don't remember how it came up, but even why I started thinking, think that many years ago is I've got pastor friends, and they are just incredible. I mean, I've listened to sermons. I don't think they ever get, what's a good word, you know, fired up. Animated. Animated. Right. It's just, they're just, man, good teachers and solid. And, you know, Chuck Smith's example, you know, Danher in Calvert Chapels. or, I mean, we can list a lot of good teachers.

Even John MacArthur's kind of just straight, but he was bold. So you compare him with Chuck, say, or, you know, like when I was studying theology, I would read Jack Heford and John MacArthur, you know, try to find that balance. That's interesting. So I think there is a wiring, like God is, you know, let's say, God, I've given you this burden in your heart to call the nation to repentance, and you're going to be bold and repentance and just pressing in and animated like a Whitfield or Wesley. And you read their journals compared to.

Jonathan Edwards, who was very just reading his manuscript, where other people preached their whole body, and their messages were different. And so that's what I meant. It's kind of to compliment people, because I would get a lot of people. I wish my pastor was like you. Well, no, you don't. You're just glad I'm bold, and you're not, you know, six months from now, you'll have issues with me, too, right? Or other church. A man, shame, he's to calm down a little bit, right? He's just too, like, you know, and so you realize, you know, I'm just going to be comfortable in how God designed me. And there are, I believe there are different callings. And we talked about before, even with political arena, thank God for the Tony Perkins or Dobsons or those, even though that might

not be somebody else's will house. Like, why are they so involved? We should thank them that they are. And why are you so involved? Well, I'm not. And okay, glad you're not because your main callings homeless in your ministry. And, you know, you don't. So what happens is we become wrongly judgmental, is where I'm trying to get to. I've seen a lot of people wrongly judgmental. Like, I'm bold. I'm this bold pastor. I've got that 100,000 Instagram followers, and I call it out, and these other pastors are weak, and they're woke, and not necessarily, it could be different callings, you know, different the way God has wired us differently, and thank God for that. So it just was a real, I went through a Pharisee season. Can I hold that? I want to come back to that. This is actually

really important. But when you said you're comfortable, I think you used the word, I'm comfortable in my calling. Yes. I want to clarify what you mean by that, because I'm comfortable in the sense of, I know who God has called me to be. And I'm an apologist. I speak truth. But I consider myself a relational apologist. I like to have conversations. I'm not threatened my people who see the world differently.

I've had some debates and I enjoy it as much as the next person. I have a competitive edge about me. Right, right. I'm just drawn to, like, sit down and connect with people. That's my lane. So I'm comfortable in that. But I'll need a daily spark of hope and direction. Let the Daily Bible app from Salem Media be that.

Spark. This free Android app delivers an uplifting verse each morning, plus reading plans, devotions, and trusted podcasts from leaders like Joyce Meyer and Rick Warren. Prefer to listen instead? The Daily Bible app reads verses, reading plans and chapters allowed, handy for the headphones moment of your day. Choose from versions like ESV, NIV, NIV, KJV, and more, and bookmark favorites to revisit later. Share inspiring messages with loved ones right from the app. Feel God's presence in every notification. Search for Daily Bible app on Google Play and begin your day with hope, purpose, and peace. I don't want to be too comfortable.

Right. I do, like just two weeks ago, I had a professor here and he goes, Sean, sometimes you say things like, you know, this gives me pause. Pause for concerns. Yeah, I go, sometimes just tell people what you think. And I was like, you know what? You're probably right about that. Sometimes I might nuance things too much because I want to think about it.

Like, that's a fair challenge to me. so I'm comfortable in my arena, but I also want to be made uncomfortable so I can grow and get better. So tell me what that means for you to be comfortable in God's design, but uncomfortable at the same time when someone pushes you. You actually just revealed a gold mine here. I hope people realize because some people can be comfortable and not offending. like that's my goal where maybe a bold preacher's pastors can be they man they they want to offend and that's not good either they've got to they've got to the sake of offending they got to put on the breaks where somebody else might need to put on the gas so what I mean is and and I don't know who you used to like who do you gravitate towards as you're when you're younger I mean what

type of books and and speakers for me I loved books on revival American church history First Great Awakening, Second Great Awakening. I mean, I devoured those. New Hebridge Revivals, Duncan Campbell, D. Martin Lloyd-Jones recommended a series of books, men like Hal Harris, Griffin-Jones, Daniel Rollins, in Welsh, and Scotland. I don't know why, but God, because that's how I'm wired.

And then so I like the Wilkerson, Raven Hill Tozers. Okay, right, because that's how I'm wired. But that's a hard calling because you do convict, you do upset more than most. You say it like it is, and I finally just got comfortable with that. Like, okay, this is how I'm wired, you know, because I came out of the fitness industry. I was a district manager running fitness centers, and so I was a motivational speaker, right? This is before you're even a Christian.

Well, it's a transitionary period. God used that to bring me back, the prodigal son come home. But I would go in like, okay, fill out surveys, you know, the speaker's appearance. How did they? And so it's all based on men's approval, a motivational speaker. Now it's like spending time with God, the words coming alive in my heart and just preach it. And it's when you do that, it's not always popular. And so I had to become comfortable in the calling that God has given me to say the hard things. And I believe the more God has called a person to be that, that voice of truth and that, like you said, that prophetic voice, I believe there are different. You actually,

humble you have to be because pride is self-exaltation and I'm always right and that's how you fall in ministry is because of pride. So you have pride on the sense of us who are bold, but you also have pride on the other hand, what we call the woke or whatever you want to call it, the cowardly, that they don't want to offend anybody. They don't upset anybody. And the gospel, Oswald Chambers actually says the message of the gospel hurts and offends until there's nothing left to hurt and to offend. And he's true. And so that side, I'm not saying you, the other side has, they have to, they have to spend time with God and get that boldness back, get that fire of the spirit back. And then others of us have to spend that time with God to stay humble and to be broken and pliable

and usable by him. So that's, I have to get comfortable because it's a hard calling to, to, I mean, you look at Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Joel Amos Obadiahe, Jonah, Mike and Neham, you know, the minor, the major, the voices. that really spoke God's word faithfully and even difficult to a nation that didn't want to hear it. It is hard. So that's why I might become comfortable with, I'm going to ruffle feathers. But the testimonies that come in are just amazing. And so you have to look at that fruit as well.

So let's go to your backstory. What you said at the beginning was something in effect of being bold, like America, you know, there's a truth and a boldness, but is America broken? Right. You and I were speaking in an event a few weeks ago, and you texted me on my way out as I'm driving home. Like, right and I got in my car to hit traffic for like two hours. Perfect time. And it was a message that you shared.

And Shane, I was in tears as I was driving down. I don't know if it was the five or whatever freeway it was and just thinking, oh, my goodness, here's somebody from the outside is like a bold truth speaker. And we've done a few events together. That's my sense. But, whoa, like this story. and what just struck me is like a humility and a willingness to speak about your brokenness. Right. Talk about that season and what happened, if you will.

That was at a pastor's conference in Ohio, Salem Web Networkers, and I was a keynote speaker. And, you know, before God uses a man greatly, he often hurts him deeply, AW-Tozer would say. So it's been a process of, I don't know how much to open up with, but in my 20s, walking away from God, you know, it costs a lot. and a lot of pain. And then finally when the prodigal son came home and just the tears and the fullness of the spirit, you know, it was incredible. And then when the word comes alive,

you know, the Bible talks about knowledge puffs up. So, you know, five years into it, I'm, quote, Spurgeon and the Puritans and Tulip and all these things. And I'm just, you know, I'm just, Grudom System Act theology. I devoured in June, July, August one summer, and Hodges System Act theology

and lectures to my students, Spurgeon, and Lloyd Joan, and just like, man, I'm just telling people off, and I'm just putting my people, you know, just like, kind of like, here's what you got to do. And my mom finally came to me, she said, hey, nobody wants to be around you. How old are you, by the way, at this point? By then I am 29. 29. 30. Fired up, Theologically, truth teller.

Oh, no, but then five years later, so 34, 35. So you're 34. It was your mom of all people that came to. Okay, paint that picture what happened. Yep. And she said, she ain't nobody wants to be around you anymore. And I said, well, they're just convicted. Right? Because, you know, alcoholism or this. And they're just convicted. They don't like what I have to say. It's like, no, it's not what you say. It's how you say it. And so that Phariseeism had to be broken out of me. And it's a process. And many, many, I'm sure, listening to this will need to spend some time with the Lord to get broken before him because they're bold, but they're arrogant.

And that's, you know, that's, you got to have boldness, but you've got to, like, Whitfield wouldn't preach about hell without tears in his eyes, you know, and having, so that, that's what happened at that Ohio event. It was just, just that breaking process. And there are other times I shared with you, I, um, 2017, maybe. Um, I had a young girl come in 1617. She said, you just made me feel so bad today. I'm struggling with same sex attraction.

And, and I preach, because I preach, here's the difficult. You love the person, right? and you want to help them and share God. But the agenda is killing me, right? It's like the schools, it's like, how do you, how do you, balance that? How do you love the one but call out the agenda? And so I cried with her and I learned a valuable lesson that day. I've had other, you know, just that breaking process where, because when you're strong and bold,

you know, you'll steamroll people if you're not careful. And so it was just a series of God just continuing to break and break. And it's going to be a process till the day I die. But, and so I think, and actually, the more I broke, the more he used me. You know, so opportunities would open. God would open more doors, and it was just, it was, it was incredible. So that's kind of my framework of where I come from. So I want to probe it out a little bit, and I want to frame for people, like boldness

can turn into arrogance. Very easily. Meekness can turn into cowardice. Yeah. So the key is how we balance the two of these without, and maybe, again, I think because of our wiring or our experience, some of us are naturally grace givers. Some of us are naturally truth tellers. I think some of that is just wired into our DNA that's not going to change.

But take it's like paint that picture a little bit more. Your mom comes to you. You're about 34. How you responded. And then kind of the steps of working through that brokenness because there's probably a lot of people watching this. Yeah. But I do want to be challenged a little bit to maybe think, you know what? I need to do some of this similar work in my own life.

And for the record, not just for them, for me too. Right. I need to keep working through this. Well, I think I shared this in one of my books and articles and different things. Another point after this time, I think my wife did on purpose, but I don't think we even had kids yet. Just married. She left her journal open, you know, and it said, I married a man who is, you know, heart domineering or controlling and this.

You know, I can't do much about it, but I would. don't want it to affect the kids. I'm like, I took a drive. I was so angry and upset. But what I was doing, I was like, no, you can't start a make a business or you can't do this. We're saving money. We're saving. So it wasn't controlling in psych. It was just like, no, we're not going to spend money doing that. We're not, you know, just kind of not respecting the wife's thoughts, the two shall become one. And so we talked it through, and that really got me to another spot of brokenness as well. And then I mentioned actually this Sunday that we

our church began to visit hospital homes. Do you know what those are? Their hospitals inside neighborhoods where people will, investors will buy a house and then they'll turn it into four-bedroom. You know, they get income and they put patients there with nurses. So our church was given like five of these

to go and minister to. And the stuff I saw there, I would leave just crying. You know, I remember one suicide, felt suicide attempt, half of her skulls missing. She's blind and she's depressed and suicidal. I'm there to minister to her. She can't see, but I'm crying. My tears on the floor, and I'm praying for her about when she was abused as a four-year-old and

just, and I go to another guy's a paraplegic, and these things that are just breaking, breaking, but God, that's how he keeps your heart tender and pliable. Because you can have, you can be straight as a gun barrel, theological, but just as empty. You know, dead inside, just arrogant. And we see that, that Bible thumping, in your face, you know, certain, and just that, you can tell those people, they're just too much arrogance. They don't, there's not enough. And again, that's something I'm working on until the day I die.

So don't look at me and go, oh, that's a great example. No, I struggle with it often, you know. But so, yeah, my mom's thing, my wife's journal, just other things. It just keeps breaking and breaking. And it just gets to a point where, and now worship, you know, during worship, you know, just preparing for that message you heard. Actually, what broke me there is before they told this, lady, she became a Christian because of the Samaritans purse, those shoeboxes.

Oh. Yeah. And so she's talking about how they were delivered to her in Iran or Iraq or something like that and became believers. Her father was actually threatened for her life, like, we're going to kill you and your family. And like, she only had like, okay, you got five minutes. You got six minutes, right?

And I'm next. I'm thinking, that's the keynote speaker. She needed to be the keynote speaker. God help. And I just, I went up there already, already kind of just in tears because, like, we can't rush her through this. Like, this is, this is so important. This is a, and Pastor Shane, our guest speaker, and like, those things just break you. And you have to be, you have to not think so highly of yourself.

And you have to be broken before God. And through that brokenness, you know, the more, when the more we, the more we do that, the lower we go, the more he'll elevate, too. And, of course, we get into my background, dyslexia, graduate high school at the 1.8, reading and learning disabilities, came from a hardworking construction family, was destined to be nothing, really. And then once I committed to the, myself to the Lord, and that everything just shifted, you know. I went to school here in 94 to 98 at Biola.

Yes. And had a number of different friends, but one friend in particular who was, in some ways, my perception, the way you're describing yourself when you were younger, he was, he was a truth teller. He would go out and do evangelism all the time, stood up in chapel a few times and called out a speaker and left. And let's just say we ended on not great terms. Maybe I shouldn't say this, but he's the only person I was inches away from just punching and trying to knock him out.

I was so upset. I'm not proud of that. And we, you know, we were in touch a little bit all the time, but mostly lost touch. He left, went to another university. and it was shortly after the death of Charlie Kirk that he sent me an email and he apologized for the way that he acted here. And I'm not going to pretend that I did everything right. That's not the point here. But I got that and I was like, first off, I didn't expect that.

Second, it was so moving that somebody three decades later is like, you know what, God convicted my heart. And I just see a difference in his character. and he's coming out here soon. I'm heading to where he lives. We're going to like hang out. And it's like literally just like I'm really looking forward to seeing him because of this. And just an example of somebody that in some ways it seems to kind of mirror your story a little bit. What would you say to that person?

Because you and I have talked about individuals. We don't need to name names at all. But when you see people maybe on social media, YouTube, pastors conferences, in conversation, wherever. And you kind of see yourself in somebody who's young. younger and going, you know what, I think you need to be humbled. You know, you can fill in the blank. Want to keep God's word with you wherever you go? The King James Bible study KJV app by Salem Media makes it easy to read, study, share, and pray daily with a timeless KJV translation. Enjoy features like offline access, audio Bible listening, smart search, and tools to highlight

bookmark and take notes, all designed to keep your Bible studies simple and organize. Best of all, it's free to download in the Google Play Store. Grow in your faith every day. Search for King James Bible study KJB and download the app today. What would you say to yourself 20 years ago? First, my mind is going to, I wonder why he called him out. Like, is it something to call the person out about it? Well, you know what? I will actually tell you he was right about it.

He was right about it. So that's a fair question. He stood up called a guy a heretic and this guy has completely left his faith and has become a humanist. Wow. So he saw stuff that I didn't see. So there was, you know, he was right about certain things. The timing, I don't know the answer to that. But to answer your question, I was like, well, he was right on that one.

That sounds like, I mean, I would, I've thought about that before, you know, when do you call people out? And when do you not, you know, when do you say? But what was the question of, I forgot. So the question was what you would say to your younger self. Oh, my goodness. By the way, before you answer that, I think the line this person said was something effective, you think you'll be saved without shedding some of your own blood. Oh, yeah.

And he just called it out. And in my mind, I'm like still at that, now I like see it crystal clear. But at that day, what does he mean and trying to figure it out? He just called it out. And I think he was right that he was preaching a false gospel. But my question for you is, what would you say to yourself? My younger self. Or somebody 20 years ago.

Boy, you know what, I actually write about it and preach it in sermon. So that's how I try to get it out out there. And I do come to younger pastors and leaders. The problem with pride is you don't see it, and you can tell people certain things. Hopefully it will stick, but really life has got to break them. God's got to break them. So you can say, and they're like, oh, yeah, God, I'll be different. You know, that's not going to happen to me.

I don't remember if you remember Steve Ferrar's book, Finishing Strong. I do remember. I read it, yeah. I'll never forget, he interviewed, or somebody did, 280 of the top Christian men who fell in ministry. And at the top of the list was, that will never happen to me. That will never happen to me. Pride and sees that they don't want to. And other people, I don't want to, you know, but back in the 80s, some of these big ministries that fell,

like David Wilkerson went to some of these people or other people, and they don't want to hear it. They don't want to. So I would probably pray for the person for God to wake them up. And I would share, hey, you know, we're sensing some. And usually they don't want to be challenged, so they'll push back. Oh, no, I'm just, I'm just convicting. You know, that's a message God gave me. I'm just a straight shooter.

I've heard that before. I'm just a straight shooter, you know? I've heard that one. No, you're arrogant. You're arrogant. Because you can tell. You can tell when somebody's just feisty and in your, but then you have that bold, prophetic voice, too,

that we see sometimes on Instagram. There's that, he's actually exploding right now that, the guy in Georgia, a black guy. Incredible. You know, I sense truth and love and other people, but you can sense that, just that arrogance, wanting likes, more followers, wanting more views. And so I would try to say something to my younger self,

but my younger self wouldn't listen. You're not even sure the person would hear it. That's totally, that's a fair point. Yeah, yeah. I've had conversations with people who have gone both ways. I've seen people and I've said really kindly in relationship, I think you're heading a direction that's going to be destructive. And just know when you get there, I love you and I'm here for you. Amen. That's good. And I've said to people like this, you're arrogant and you need to change. And you need to repent. And neither worked in the moment now that I think about it. And I don't know.

I mean, maybe it's just a matter of, like you said, following your conviction before the Lord, hope you're full of spirit, pray for that person. And I should add, it's not like I wouldn't say anything. Sure. I'm just not confident it's going to. That's fair. And believe it, I mean, there's times, I can't tell you how many times I'll get an email a year or two later and say, hey, you just want to let you know, you're right.

Thank you for challenge me. I really thought about it. Most people aren't going to respond well initially because it takes humility to respond well. And if they're prideful, they're not going to respond well. So it's kind of like, they're not going to say, oh, yeah, thanks for pointing that out. I need to work on that. Because we all need to work on something. You know what I mean?

If people like we see in the media, social media, that all these people are accusing people, they should say, you know, I do need to work on some of that. Thank you for bringing it up and move forward. But pride won't let you do that. It's guarding. It's self-preservation. That's what pride is. That's what legalism is. It's self-preservation rules versus wisdom of following God's rules. You want to follow God's rules. You want to build that relationship.

And I don't consider them rules or guardrails through the canyons of life, really. How much do you think about long-term with people? Because I think about my students, and I had a student who really was in my class and became an atheist and we had coffee a couple times. It was really good. And it was just clear to me he has made up his mind, not open. And I just graciously at the end, I said, you know, you went down this road without me being a part of the conversation, became an atheist, did it alone. If you ever just open the door up and are considering God again, will you shake my hand, look me in the eyes, and promise me that you'll at least invite me into the conversation, shook my hand and said, yes. I haven't heard from him yet. You know, he's 20 some years behind me.

but I think about playing the long term with people, but then the voice in the back of my mind sometimes is like, but you know what, they could get hit by a car tonight. Maybe that's the evangelist in me that I go back to. And I don't know how to, I just don't always know how to balance that. And maybe it is, like you said,

we're back to just like before the Lord, just speak truth with a heart of that person as best as I can. And maybe I didn't do it perfectly. But that's where grace comes in. And I can just trust God's sovereignty that person's life. Well, you know what? You just made me think of something.

I've not a good example of this in the past because you know what? You say something, lovingly confront. You want to fall up a couple weeks later, a month later, and you keep pressing where you should just left it. And I actually push people farther away. You know, like, what?

You had me thinking, but now you're upsetting me and like, oh, it's like with kids that are a rebellion, right? I mean, your kids know where you stand. You just love them. You don't allow, certain things under your roof. But they, you know, they need that grace. And I think I've seen so many kids walk away, yes, from lukewarm and carnal homes, but also from the modern-day Pharisee homes

where their dad rules that home like a rod of iron and its rules. And they don't see the brokenness and gentleness and love and grace of Christ and you. That's actually, I think it was, I think it was your dad again. Oh my goodness. He said, he said one of the most common questions he gets, this is like 30 years ago, from young adults, he travels a country, this is one of the number one questions he gets from young adults is, how can I live for Christ when I don't want the Christ my parents have? Oh, wow. I remember reading that.

I highlight it, and I just, how can I live? And their number one question, all the young adults is, how can I live for Christ when I don't want the Christ my parents have? I mean, if that doesn't bring you to tears, you know, that, that, that, and, you And that's how I believe our kids are, at least our kids so far are doing well because we show them that brokenness, that humility. I could have handled that better. But we stand strong on certain things. But they see that grace.

They see that. That's powerful because when it breaks you, it breaks them. But that arrogance, they'll push back on, that legalism. So you're pastor. And you're dealing with a lot of families and individuals. And you've talked about families who leave a lukewarm home, families who leave a legalistic home. In my experience, haven't done some writing and thinking a lot of conversations on deconstruction and deconversion. Yeah.

It's far more those who have come from the legalistic home and are reacting against it. Now, it might be that those who leave lukewarm home just end up, they're not upset about it and they don't talk about it. So I don't have a number on which one is more significant statistically. But those are the stories that I hear more. do you hear those kinds of stories far more? And how would you counsel a parent when you know that this element is present and their kids are questioning these kinds of, you know, they're questioning their fate, they're concerned about them.

But you see that legalism present in the family. So I guess it's a two-part question. Do you see more reacting in the way that I describe from that fundamentalist, legalistic, harsh family? And how do you navigate that when it comes to you? Well, here's a good test for your listeners. The legalist is not going to like what you just said. And if you don't like what I said, it's because you need to hear what I said, basically.

But let me qualify. Neither home is a good. Okay. Neither home. Right. Lukewarm, carnal. Any type of lukewarm would be, yeah, concerts that maybe aren't God honoring, movies that aren't God honoring, Netflix.

Okay, so is it fair to say, these other priority, these things matter at the expense of church, and living out your faith, as opposed to, like, you can be a vibrant Christian, but engage certain things in culture wisely. Right, for sure. Okay. All right. You leave that up to the individual. So your point was when I cut you off is that that lukewarm family is not good.

Neither is the legalistic family is not good. Right. I'm not promoting. I'm not promoting. Just because we're harping on the legalistic one doesn't mean the lukewarm carnal, whatever you want to call that. Yeah, totally fair. Here's what happens in the lukewarm carnal type homes where they're not on fire for the Lord. It's pretty clear that they're not on fire for the Lord.

So the kids are not, man, my mom and dad aren't living it. They know they're not living it. You know, you're not really sending a mixed signal other than unless you're trying to live it out. You're being false and fake and a hypocrite. You know, that's what a hypocrite was, right? They'd show up the mask. And one thing on Sunday, somebody else on Monday. But kids with carnality and lukewarmness, it's dangerous, but, you know, they see it.

And they see it themselves and their parents. but with legalism and what we call, you know, I know what term you used, fundamentalist. I might have, yeah. I mean, that term comes from 1904, 1905 when R.A. Tori wrote his fundamentals of the face. So it's okay term, but what's- Who taught here, by the way? We have a Tory conference. Yeah, he was a violin.

That's pretty cool. So that word isn't neutral. The problem is when it's, and I've just seen it, I mean, the kids, not only do they're totally rebel, it's, they're just hurt. and the deconstructionism for people. I'm sure people know who follow your channel, but it's deconstructing their faith, right? Working it back the opposite way.

Well, maybe if this, and the worst thing you can do is show God's truth without his love. Principles to follow without the grace that you need to get back up and keep fighting. So that's what it does. It actually, legalistic, a home, sets a standard that nobody can hit. but you're acting like you're hitting it because you're the, you know, not in my, we don't go to the movies.

You know, we don't do this. We have a certain translation of the Bible we use and women have to wear dresses and head coverings and out, get into the whole, which is fine if you want. But it's the attitude behind it. See, it's not necessarily the rules. It's the attitude behind it. And the kids, it pushes them away because I need grace. I can't measure up all these rules and locked up in your room for half a day. and you know, this, and you just, there's no, there's no breathing room to grow in your faith,

because faith is following God's law, following his commandments, but also having the grace and the mercy to get back up and to keep fighting and to have people in your corner. Hey, you can keep doing this. This is not allowed. You cannot come home at midnight again, but, you know, and you, you, you know, you have the grace with the truth. And so that's, legalistic homes just don't provide the, the, the, the, the, the, the, um, the incubator of genuine faith because they constantly feel they will never measure up. They're never good enough.

They can never please mom, never please dad, and they just live like that. And it's kind of sad. So I'm going to ask you a somewhat difficult question. Maybe it won't be hard for you. But I know you can take it. Yes, I can take it. This is probably 15 years ago. And it's not like a theological question or apologetic question.

It's a scenario because I get emails daily from people. like parents and families. How do I navigate this with my kid? How do I navigate this in the church? And it's always like I want them to have truth, but I value the relationship. Where do I draw the line? And so I'm just curious how you play this one out.

Again, probably 15, maybe 20 years ago when there was so much conversation about same-sex marriage. A pastor shared with me that at his church, they were having, trying to remember some of the details. they're having kind of a marriage day or kind of retreat celebration, and they had couple stand who had been married the longest. And the last couple standing was a same-sex couple. And they were going to get some kind of award from the church and recognition for this in front of the church.

Now, they obviously hadn't been legally married because this just goes back to 20. 15. But that's the kind of situation I sit there. I'm like, oh, man, if I'm sitting in that situation, I want to speak truth, but I also don't want to shame this couple in a way that's unnecessary. To me and my mind, that is almost so often like highlighted this tension between how do you just show grace and kindness to people and how do you balance truth? What goes through your mind as a pastor if you're sitting there and this unexpected couple stands when you're trying to celebrate God's sign for marriage. And if you're like, I need to think about this because I've been thinking about it for like 15 years,

I'm totally fine with that. Well, no. I mean, I think I answer pretty quickly because what I do is anytime we measure grace or truth, right, I look at what is the greater harm. So my silence is going to be more harm to my congregation. So, yes, I might have fed. So I probably say, hey, guys, let's talk about this one. after church, you know, but also I don't know if they would be, all are welcome, right,

at church, but we don't affirm. So because of my preaching and preaching, they probably, for openly same-sex couple to be coming to church, maybe they're new, brand new, I don't know, it could be, but they're probably not going to come and stay in sin, if that makes sense, because it's just the convicting of the message, we're not targeting them, but just the conviction of God's word. So for me, I would, because of the congregation, my role as a leader, my kids might be there, my wife. I'd probably say, okay, guys, and let's talk about that later. I'm going to do a sermon at some point on God's design for marriage, but I'm looking for those who have been married according to God's design. So yes, it might shame them,

but they actually created this environment. I didn't create it. I'm responding to it. So to me, that silence would have spoke volumes, and it would have actually done more damage to my testimony and to the members of my church, if that makes sense. I love that. I think that's really wise and you email me something about how sometimes silence can actually cause harm and this is an example of doing so so it sounds like when it came to the pronoun issue earlier if somebody's like call me he him you don't feel the need to go out of your way and correct that person immediately but i'm not going to go along with this right and i'm going to look for the more opportune time to address that wisely in this circumstance i'm not going to go out in my way to shame this couple but this is

public. I've already preached on where our church stands. I'm going to shift to the right one, move on, and then follow up with that couple as lovingly and graciously as I can. Yeah. So for me, I weigh what's the greater damage. That's smart. You know, and then, you know, now it depends on the person, though. If I'm looking for a simple way to stay rooted in God's word every day, the Daily Bible Devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you connected with scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy daily Bible trivia and humor, a fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your faith.

Get the Daily Bible Devotion app for free on both iOS and Android. Start and end your day with God's Word. Search for the Daily Bible Devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store and download it today. At Starbucks, I've got my 16-year-old and my 18-year-old, and I've got somebody saying, like, So my daughter, no, I'm he-him. I say, hey, hey, we're not lying here. You're not a he-him.

It's linguistically pronoun. Like, I don't understand this whole thing because to me it's lying. It's not being honest. However, it depends on the situation. Most of the time I'm just like, okay, thanks, Chris, nice to meet you. But if it's going to be a constant thing and depending what the environment is, where it's at, I mean, if it's at church, I'm in the prayer room. That's a very different set. You know, and I say, hey, what's your name? Chris? Can I pray with you? No, it's he, him. And I say, oh, no, no, I love you. But let's talk about he, him. And I use that as an opportunity, but I'm not going to call them. I'm not going to honor what I think is dishonoring to God. You know, again, the weighing the silence speaks volumes. And that's what I think many, what I consider, I don't know if you want to use their term. It's been used the wrong way, sometimes woke or liberal or progressive. And I have friends that consider, you know,

they're more kind of that leaning, but it's almost an arrogance in their silence. And I talk to them, why don't you ever, no, I don't mention sin much because that's God's job to convict. I'm like, no, it's really yours from the pulpit too. You're a watchman. You're a preacher of God's truth. It's not, he's going to have you as well convict them. And so there's this thought that it's not my job to convict. It's my job to love. No, it's actually your job to do both. That's why Paul said, be ready in and out season. The time will come when they're not going to put up with sound doctrine, you know, exhort, encourage, long-suffering, I mean, so we have the scriptural mandate to preach all of God's, and I think the most

powerful preaching of God's word comes from the truth being preached in love. If you go any side, if you're just, if you're all truth and I'm going to, if you're, if you're, if you're gay in here, if you're, you know, and you're just beating the pulpit and you're just putting down people, it's not going to, it's just, you just hurt a lot of people. But if you're like, you know what, I'm not going to go there. I mean, just look at all the political hot buttons or whatever you want to call them. They're biblical hot buttons. And so if I just are going to remain silent, it's really because I've struggled with this.

It's cowardliness, isn't it? I don't want to deal with this. I don't want to upset anybody. It's cowardliness. And that's why I said earlier, the more time I spend with God, the bolder I become. Okay, so hold that. I want to explore that. But your point about the sphere, I think, is really.

really, really wise and helpful. I want to make sure we don't miss this. I teach a class here at Biola called Gospel Kingdom Culture, and it's apologetics, evangelism, spiritual conversations, and the thorniest cultural issues people can talk about. So we talk about race, we talk about transgender, we talk about poverty, we talk about artificial intelligence. And the board down, like, directed it for Thaddez Williams and I to write this course.

And we were just talking about pronouns this week. And I said, before we just answer this, maybe there's damage to a Christian and a non-Christian, an adult, and a child. There's so many different settings that are taking place here. And you're right. Like in Starbucks and somebody's dropping off your coffee really fast and it's like abrupt versus somebody who's in the church asking for prayer. Yeah. Even that nuance makes a big difference when and how we speak. truth. So I just want to make sure, because I want to ruminate on that even more myself. I think

there's a lot of wisdom in that. Let's go back to Scripture. Well, the wisdom came from a lot of failures, too. So that's where... Well, most wisdom does, doesn't it? I think most wisdom does. I think that's right. And the wise people learn from other people's failures. Yes, that's true. That's for sure. So we're talking about scripture making us more bold. Now, I have my thoughts about this, but I want to hear from you first, what you mean by that and how that works. the boulder I become? Yeah. Well, because I think by nature, and what I've been by nature is, you know, if you jump in a river,

you're just going to go to the flow. You're not going to. So by nature, most people are not confrontational, right? I just, man, I want to give a good sermon. I want people to like me. I want them to come back next Sunday, you know, and sadly, a lot of pastors, I've got pastor friends that are subject to deacon boards. And if they start really speaking the truth, they're going to lose some of their audience

and the financial budgets. And so what I mean by that is those things are just put aside. It's like the more time I spend in God's word, the bolder I become for cultural issues. And by the way, this isn't just for pastors. No, it's anybody. I want to make sure we're connecting everybody. But keep going how it relates to you. Yeah.

And so these things that are human nature, whatever you want to call them, wired by default, to be quiet, cowardly, timid, you know, that's kind of our, most people want to be liked by people, right? Jesus said, well, be to you when all men speak well of you, or if you're trying to please men, you won't be a pleaser of God. And so when it comes to what we're talking about, speaking the truth and love, cultural issues, the more time I spend with God, the bolder. I become on these issues that most of us are inclined to be silent about. That makes sense.

It does. Yeah. So I think it is two reasons for me. The more I study Scripture, the more I'm confident about what Scripture says. Yes. And so I have a certain confidence of like, you know what? I can take criticism from people. If I know that I'm standing on a position that is the most reasonable, likely biblical

position, it just gives me confidence to say, fine. I've got the Lord at my back, and I've thought about this. So personally, I find that that happens a lot. The more I study an issue and have conviction about it and get into the scriptures. The second is I just see over and over again in the scriptures how much it says to be bold. Yeah. So I've been studying Deuteronomy over and over again in the morning, and it's like a drumbeat in that book. Now, of course, this is Moses' final speech before they enter the promise land.

So he's got to tell him, be bold. Do not be afraid. I should do a quick search how many times, but it's probably dozens of times. So I read that. I'm like, wow, be bold, be bold, don't be afraid, speak truth. And so just being in scripture reminds me of that. The other thing that jumped out is I was before Deuteronomy, I was studying Luke. And when Luke – I'm sorry, when Jesus stands up in the gospel, Luke, and reads from Isaiah 61, I believe it is.

And he's like, these things have been fulfilled in your presence. It says twice about how everybody was praising him and everybody loved him. But by the end of that chapter, they want to throw him off a cliff at Nazareth. I'm like, wow, they shifted from loving him and caring for him to wanting to throw him off the cliff. Yeah. I've signed up to follow this guy. Right. What audience am I playing for?

Am I playing for being pleased by men? If so, my life is like a roller coaster. I'm at the whims of what people think about me. But if I'm trying to please God and be on his side, it's actually freeing for me and gives me more boldness just by being in scripture in that fashion. That's more my experience with it. And you'll read, because people have a misconception of Jesus,

right, turn the other cheek, this nice guy, but man, you brood of vipers. Can you imagine looking at religious leaders and saying you're look great on the outside, like whitewashed tunes, but you're dead on the inside. Woe, woe be to you. Well, did Isaiah speak of you? You draw nigh into me with your lips with your heart.

And he just, I mean, he was boldly and he needed to be bold. And that's the hard part. It's fine. Because also what happens is I call it reaction. And, you know, somebody's doing something. I want to react. And that's arrogance. Because you're guarding or you're defending.

And oh, yeah, well, let me tell you this. And you want to text back. And so it's that time of not reacting but responding and waiting on God. And for most, some people, they know they just need to just put on the brakes. For other people, they need to step on the gas and start being a little bit more bold. You know, and that's one of the things we talked about earlier with the pulpits in America. You know how much that has shifted from years ago. Now, hold that.

We might come back to the pulpit. So why wouldn't we be bold? And the opposite of boldness, either could be cowardice or fear, right? You don't want to deal with it right now. I mean, right? Like, I don't want to say anything. I don't want to deal with, you know, let me just. It's easier to do so.

For sure. I also think, like, fear, I ask myself a lot, how much am I motivated by fear in my life? And it's so easy to succumb to that. Absolutely. Which prevents somebody from being bold because it could be fear for a reputation, fear for a job, fear for, fear for, whatever the kind of issue is. But the biblical solution to fears in 1st John 418, perfect love casts out.

Cast out fear. And when I think about this, you know, one of the leading, just yesterday was talking my students here at Bio about this, one of the leading fears, it's like death and then it's like public speaking. Yeah, that's true. It's like, oh, he's top three or top five. I hated it. And it's like, why?

because so many people are looking at me, and I don't want to be embarrassed or shamed in front of people. So that's where fear comes from. Fear is selfish. Love is selfless. Fear is self-focused. Love is other focused. Yeah, so good. So in some ways, when I look at the church today, when we get overly defensive and we're overly angry,

I sometimes think we're acting out of fear. And some of those concerns are not illegitimate, whatever those concerns may be, but our reaction is looking at ourselves rather than asking what's the loving response to somebody else. So I've had different people call me out in different ways. And I always think, you know what, you're thinking about yourself rather than if I really want to persuade Sean to change or anybody changes. is it about me, how do I speak in a way that this is best received? And so, like, I was a comm major here, and communication very simply put, it would be like a sender and it would be a message and it would be a receiver.

Right. And the message is the communication. Well, most people have their idea and the message they want to send. This is the truth I want to convey. But they're not thinking about the receiver. and whether or not the receiver will at least hear them. And the question is, what makes somebody more likely to hear them? Sometimes it's somebody getting in their face and yelling at them and correct.

Like sometimes that's the time. But that seems to me to be more the exception of the time. And there's often more of a relationship behind that that makes it happen. I ask myself, if I have something I think is true and I want somebody to, to hear it. How do I speak it in love? Because A, that's actually loving somebody, whether they respond or not, I'm called to love somebody. But B, it sure seems walls come down, and they're more likely to hear it if I speak the truth in love. So I just, I'm going to look at the church. I look at pastors today. I look at myself. And I ask myself, how much am I speaking out of fear

which is selfish versus saying, am I speaking out of love? And that's why, I mean, last point in this, I'm rambling a little bit, but when people get nervous for speaking, part of my response is stop thinking about yourself. Just ask yourself, how can I love my audience? Because they're worried about opinions.

Because we're worried about opinions. And I go, well, how can I tell stories that help them? How can I make a PowerPoint that helps them? How can I actually help them? Then the focus shifts from me to others. And I think if we Christians would just stop focusing on ourselves and our fear inwardly and just say, how will people most likely hear the truth of Christ? I think we'd communicate very differently.

And this one might be helpful. That was a great point. And it made me think of this for your listeners. You'll have probably a pastors listening, lay leaders, Christians, appalled. How I preach to a mass audience or whatever is a lot different than how I talk to an individual. Amen to that. So there's different dynamics. I just need to be like, no, no, don't be like I'm preaching.

Don't talk to an individual that way. When it's a mass, you have the advantage of not knowing what God's doing in their hearts. And people don't take it personally because there's a group of people. But when I'm talking to an individual, it's going to be obviously a little bit different. However, like you said earlier, there are times to really shoot people straight when they're destroying their family, when they need to wake up. There's other times where you need to come alongside and just listen to them. Looking for a simple way to stay rooted in God's Word every day?

The Daily Bible Devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you connected with scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy Daily Bible trivia and humor, a fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your faith. Get the Daily Bible Devotion app for free on both iOS and Android. Start and end your day with God's Word. Search for the Daily Bible Devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store, download it today. Speak the truth and love. But also, you know, yeah, I would say airing on the side

of grace, but also when I was younger, I did a, I really was into just, I just love like football coaches, like good teams, you know, Cowboys, I think it's Tom Lowndry, Laundrie Rider, and Green Bay was Vince Lombardi. And just studying all these guys, I think I did it. I don't know why I did actually. But I realize all these great coaches weren't too nice all the time. Were they? I mean, most good coaches, basketball down here at USC or UCLA, basketball coaches, even football, you know, they pull out of you what's inside of you.

So they're really, they're not like, hey, no problem. They're like, get back up. You don't do that. And so there is a different dynamic that takes place there. So again, as a pastor, what type of pastor, the calling that maybe I have or others have, it's that coach to really challenge them and to really have them dig deep. Also like Navy SEAL podcasts. Oh, got it, got it.

Watching those guys. It's not, it's just how I'm bent. And so my point was that there's not a one-size-fits-all approach. It really depends on who the person is, your relationship with them. What is God wanting you to say? going back to what I said earlier, the most important takeaway here, even to a carnal home, a lucor home, a legalistic home, is to get time with the Lord, spend time with him, open his word, praying, fasting, broken by him.

Because the problem that many people are having because the fruit, the spirit is not present, is because they're not filled the spirit. So the more filled you are, the more fruit's going to come out. That's just a biblical truth, right? the love, the joy, the peace, the contentment, but also the boldness. That's all going to come out from the fullness of the spirit. And we're all leaky vessels, D.L. Moody said. So we have to stay underneath the fountain of living water every day.

I hate to keep saying that, but that's where all of this, should I say this to this person? When should I speak the truth and love? Should I confront that? When the intimacy with the Lord and that relationship is going to navigate these waters much more effectively. Okay, so I want to kind of end with this point. I think this is really helpful that you've identified kind of your lane and you're

drawn towards coach football. You're drawn towards Navy SEALs, which just fits your personality, your competitive nature, your A personality, your drive. But you also recognize that there's a lot of people that go, you know what, I'm not the pastor coach. Maybe I'm the pastor counselor. Exactly. Maybe I'm the pastor philosopher.

Maybe I'm the pastor businessman. Your message to, I guess, two-part question. A, how do you balance out not just listening to the voices? Like I would imagine SEAL and football coaches would make you go, yeah, Shane, be tough. Yeah, Shane speak truth. It's like, wait a minute. I'm filling myself with the voices I'm naturally inclined towards. I don't want to do that too much.

And then what would you say to other pastors who are like, yeah, I don't want to listen to SEALs. I don't want to play football. that's not me, but I want to be a good pastor. Yeah, I mean, that's, it goes back to your DNA, your wiring, how God has called you. And I don't listen to those all the time. I balance it off. You do, balance it out. Oh, for sure.

I like, you know, I like the, I don't know what a good example would be, but softer podcasts, right, just learning, growing in your faith and things like that. Plus, that time with the Lord, I've been getting up for 25 years really early, you know, 330 in the morning. Wow. That is early. So I've got three hours. from here on out, usually that I'll spend worship in the word, prayer. It's dark out. Nobody's up.

And that's the time to really get refueled and re-inspired and back into God's word. And so also, though, I remember you said counseling. Some of my pastor friends, like, they love counseling, and they don't like preaching or sermon prep. That's like, oh, that's the hardest thing. For me, I love sermon prep and preaching. It's like that's what fills me up. So you have to find out what fills up that tank and what drains you. I think I got that from a book Leading on Empty.

It's about when pastors get burned out. And it said, find what fills you up and find what drains you and try to minimize what drains you and focus on what fills you up. So trying to find exercise, of course, I mean, just I think the physical, how we take care of our body affects the spiritual. If I'm not disciplined physically, if I'm not. disciplined physically, I'm not going to be disciplined spiritually. So I think finding that balance of taking care of my body physically, especially as I get older, and then, you know, balancing

out what you listen to, the podcast, who influences you. Be very careful on social media nowadays. You know that. Oh, man. I mean, some people, they get caught up in all these conspiracy theories and yeah, and this, and they just get lost. Even just the drama of it and the time of it. We weren't not designed to be hit with all this information, you know, I don't think. And I think your point about, you know, being filled up when you're empty. I only have so much emotional capacity. And when I spend it getting ticked on Twitter, I have less for my wife and less for my son. And it's just I've learned that, like you said, the older that I get.

So let's kind of, let's bring this back in. Let me add this too. Yeah, too. I want to say it earlier. But one of the biggest things that has really helped me, now let me clarify it because people are going to take it wrong, say you're not open for feedback. You're not teachable. But I don't really look at, I don't good comments and I don't look at YouTube comments or

Facebook. I don't, I mean, maybe one percent, but I have elders and deacons and a core group around me of a lot of people that will speak into my life. And so I don't know if this person is in Iowa in the basement of their mom trying to, you know, go off on me because they don't agree with some non-essential or this or my attitude or you're prideful. How do you know who I am? So I think we put too much into comments and likes and followers. You know, we get up. We have to look at Instagram to have followers. And even that can affect, that's what's affecting our teenagers right now in our country

is this people pleasing and bullying. For sure. Get off social media. It doesn't matter what they say. They don't know you well. Just surround yourself by those people who truly know you and love you. I won't listen to constructive criticism either, much from critical hearts. I want to make sure it's somebody who truly loves me.

because there's enough criticism coming in from those who, you know, truly, hey, in that sermon, you kind of, you know, you really, you know, overstep, you know, and so the elders will speak truth into my life as well. So we do have those people, but I think just that social media constantly feeding that, you know, on Mondays I turn it off and it's like I'm looking at my pocket, like four or five times. Then you realize how like wired our brains are. I can't wait for those days off. So I read, I tried to read enough criticism to just say, Do I need to pivot? It's just something I need to learn

without spending too much time and energy on it. But I can make of a handful of YouTube videos, some Twitter posts, emails I've gotten that are a little bit more substantive. And I've always, in every case, when I feel like there might be something here. I have a board. I'll send it to people on my board.

That's a key. I've sent it to my son, professors here at Talbot and just go, I've said a couple times, I don't actually have the emotional energy to watch all of this right now. I'm exhausted. I want to go watch it? I want to tell me if there's anything I really need to learn from on this and speak truth to me.

And some helpful conversations have come out of that. Well, maybe let's just kind of sum up some of the key points from this conversation. I wish I had taken notes because there's some principles here. I want to remember. I'm going to go back through this. See if I missed anything. But it seems so some takeaways are. Number one, our boldness and our energy is going to come from being in the word.

Yes. Truth and grace aside be in the word. be filled with a spirit. Yes. It's okay to find our own unique wiring where there's John the Baptist, John the beloved, and God has called us uniquely.

We should be comfortable in terms of who God has called us to be. Steward that anointing. Steward that is a good way to put it, but open to always growing and being challenged. What are some of the other key takeaways from this comment? I think the word, well, the word nice,

like I remember I looked up, it means pleasant and agreeable. it's not always biblical. So, you know, I want to be nice. Okay, that means, I guess it would depend on how you define it, right? But you're not always going to be pleasant and agreeable if you have to lovingly challenge someone. I mean, so I think the idea is to err on the side of grace and to be bold when God calls you to be bold. And I think most people know, we know what we need to work on, right?

I don't need to work on being silent. I mean, that's not my, that's not my, that's not my weakness. I need to work on not getting the last word in and being lovingly more gentle and just, because you pastors also preach with their emotions. You know, I always say, I don't not preach a 60-minute perfect sermon. I guarantee my emotion is in there. My motives are in there. My perspective sometimes, even though we stick with.

truth, all the principles, you know, you, and many times I look back and go, why did I go off on somebody, like not a name necessarily, but just like critics or, and just realizing that working on those areas you know you need to work on. So some listening are quiet, they're silent, they don't want to say anything, they don't want to upset. Maybe God's calling them to, to be a little bit more bold, maybe sharing scripture, lovingly challenging. For others of us, it's, it's, this could be a great call to repentance to say, God, my heart is growing hard and callous. Look at what Jesus said.

You have sound doctrine to the church. And you help people in this, but you've left your first love. I mean, that was the model church right there. But they left their first love. And so I think it would be a good call to remind people to repent. And so don't just get, if something is triggering you in this interview, it's probably because you need to hear it. I mean, that's how it works.

I don't like they said that. I don't wish, or I wish Sean would be more bold. Well, it's probably because you need to work on being more loving. Or I wish Shane would, or it's probably because you need to be, you know, the people when they get, it's like when you throw a rock into a pile of dogs, you know, the one that barks is the one you hit. And so these types of podcasts will cause people to really think. And I would just encourage them to repent and get their heart right with the Lord. This is really good.

This is one. I'm going to go back through and pull out some of the principles and just think about a lot. think you're landing on a point that I believe that we're going to be living in this tension of grace and truth. Relationally, people in our family, this is true with people where we work, true with people in our church and beyond. And if we're not living in that tension a little bit, then we're stale and we're not growing whether it's more truth or whether it's more grace.

But that's the formula. And let me add, before I forget, it's so important to be apologetic and keep relationships healthy. Like Sunday, for example, a guy, I was 12 minutes, I had 12 minutes before the service, and I'm running a lake to church, right? And he comes in, I was kind of like, oh, and so I went to and say, hey, sorry about that. I was 12 minutes. Oh, no problem. And so you're constantly repenting and repairing. And like, hey, I came across strong. And I've apologized to my car. I said, hey, last month, I mean, I came across really strong. I was upset at some things. And that transparency, that meekness, that, that, that, that, because meekness is not weakness.

Amen. I agree 100%. Weakness is strength under control. You have the strength, but you're controlling it. That's meekness. Weakness is a complete opposite. So apologizing to people, I just apologize to my son a couple days ago because I was on it about, hey, you need to start coming to church more. Why you, and it's okay, I can see that. I understand, but not always trying to be the right one. You know, you're always the right one. You're always, you don't want to listen to them. You don't want to hear them.

having the attitude of repentance and humility and say, okay, I could own that. We need to work on that. I apologize for that. That keeps you very tender. And you'll become more careful what you say because you know. It's not fun to have to apologize. Yeah, no, not at all. Not at all.

And in some ways, this brings us full circle that we need to speak truth more boldly than ever because it's the truth that sets people free. Right. But my first question was tied to the death of Charlie Kirk, what we need. Right. And in some ways, I just, I can't shake it. What Erica Kirk said, offering forgiveness within days, what is 11 days, to the man who

murdered her husband, father of her kids. That's supernatural in my book. There's a whole lot of people that shocked them and were like, some people were offended by it. Well, okay, at least you saw the power of the gospel of what that looks like. You saw it demonstrated clearly. So it's not either or. I think we need to be more gracious and more kind, not nice, but kind and meek than ever,

speaking truth boldly, and may everybody who's watched this be challenged in one fashion or another, because I think that's what Christ wants us to do. You know, and just to maybe on that point for a minute, getting the full story on something. Like many of us, I've done this before, I just comment on what I think. think I know and you learn later. So even with Charlie Kirk, a lot of people that had issues didn't really understand what he said in context. They would hear just little snippets of things. Sure. So they built an opinion. And now you see, you know, that whole thing is being attacked right now from conspiracy theorists and all this thing that breaks my heart. It's like,

all over the place. Unbelievable. And those people are not, most of the people, there's no humility. You're not going to see humility in a lot of what they're saying and doing. It's all about likes and followers and get in. I don't know if we want, but it can be demonic to some degree because the enemy is planting those fiery darts and it's feeding ego. That's what he does. It feeds ego. Pride comes before a fall. And so you're not seeing a lot of humility. And that's what's happening. Sad really. Well, appreciate you coming on to talk about this. This is a great conversation. Time flu. We'll definitely do it again. And think biblically. Hey, let me say this.

How can people follow, you want to listen to sermons, follow your writings? Yeah, I forgot. Actually, all of my books are available as free downloads at the church website. Yeah, Westside Christian Fellowship.org, Westside Christian Fellowship.org, all, I think there's 13 books there. I just wrote one. I was on Jack Hibbs' podcast about quitting. I almost quit the ministry.

Yeah. So I worked through that, discouragement, fear, and things like that. But mainly there, Westsidechristianfellorship.org or Shane Edelman, you know, on Instagram. Spell that for everybody. Shane, S-H-A-N-E. And then I was named after Alan Ladd, who was in the movie, Shane. My parents sold me when I was younger. And then Idleman, I-D-L-E-M-A-N, Shane Idelman.

But, yeah, I would love to hear from people. I'll read these comments from Sean's feedback. Oh, you have committed yourself to that. I mean, once in a while, but you can't live off those things because you're... No, I get it. I get it. You're too bold. You're too quiet.

It's like, you're too political, you're not political enough. It's like, you're tossed to and fro. by the opinions of people. So just being careful who influences you. Good word. Enjoy the conversation. Thanks. Great job.

Thank you. Yeah. Give you a shake, man. Way to end it. Thank you. Thanks. Hey, friends. If you enjoyed this show,

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