The Sean McDowell Show - Fame, Failure, and Faith: The Untold Newsboys Story

Episode Date: March 20, 2026

Why are we hearing so many stories of Christian artists, pastors, apologists, and influencers who either abandon the faith or fail morally? Is something broken in Christian celebrity culture? And is there still hope for those who fall? Today, I have John James, founding member and former lead singer of the Newsboys, to talk about his new book: Newsboy, the failures and fractures inside Christian platform culture, and the redemption God brought through his lowest moments. READ: Newsboy, by John James (https://amzn.to/3NvlYwx) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [smdcertdisc] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org   Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

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Life Audio Why do you think we're hearing so many stories of Christian artists who have abandoned the faith or failed morally? This may shock the listener or the viewer, but the foundationist on sand. I guarantee you if you would talk to these people and go back to ground zero. For whatever reason, those foundations crumbled, I guarantee you that those foundations were never built on solid scriptural perspective and biblical worldview. You know, somebody might say, I guess God and his mercy and grace is giving you a platform again.

Are you fearful that again, you could be being set up for a fault? They're absolutely right, Sean. I know the wickedness of the heart and how deceitfully wicked the heart can be. Why is one of the founding members of the newsboys speaking out now? What is his message to the church, the Christian music industry, and the next generation? why was he kicked out of the newsboys and how did he find redemption after being at such a low point that he contemplated ending his life? Our guest today, John James, is here to address these questions and talk about his upcoming book, Newsboy. John loved your book. I was telling you

beforehand that I read it. It's so interesting. I haven't seen you since the mid-90s in person when you were traveling with my dad when he would speak. You did music with a band through. throughout all of Texas, you guys did, I don't know, 30 or 40 cities together. So both of us have great a little bit, but it's such a joy to catch up. Thanks for coming on. Good day, Sean. It's pretty awesome to be here. Who would have thought, hey, years later, we'd be here talking.

I'm still as bald as ever, and you have an age today, mate. So it's great to be here. Well, I do want to jump in with some of the drama that have been surrounding just Christian music industry in general, newsboys in particular, but one of the other founding members of the newsboys is an atheist. The most recent lead singer Michael Tate admitted to serious sexual misconduct. In your book, which I said, I loved, by the way, you share your story of moral failure while touring with the newsboys. And this is just the beginning of so many of these kinds of stories we've heard from Christian artists and well beyond, including apologist of which I am one.

But let me ask you this. Is there something broken in the Christian music industry itself? I think the broken thing is in the hearts of people. And when you break down the industry to a fundamental level, an organized structure to distribute and get the gospel of Jesus Christ out there through a music platform. And people sometimes have said, well, we need to burn it all down because it's inherently corrupt. I don't believe that. I think the issues in the industry that we've created is in regards to how we do authenticity, how we do accountability, how we have a platform where you have

young men and women that are one day obsolete and unknown. And the next day, they're put in this incredible influential position now, and especially through social media, where you can go viral now. I think we have created a culture where we elevate and put people on pedestals because of their merit of talent, gifting, charisma, talent. But what about the foundation of character? What about the foundation of theology? You know, these young men and women who we put up there because they look incredible, they sound incredible, these amazing voices and songs, So they're fast-track to this incredible place of influence. But, you know, it's not rocket science, mate.

If the character and the foundation and as believers the solid theology isn't there, really what you're doing is you're setting people up potentially for failure. And I think that's why we've seen that happen so much, whether in the Christian music industry or in the church environment. And it's kind of the result. of, I think, what we've unfortunately created at times. I think that's really well said, theology and character. And also, you've got to make money at concerts and got to make money with albums.

And so temptation can be built in to just pass these very things and put somebody on stage who performs. And then later it ends up undermine the very aim itself, which is to honor the Lord. Let me ask you this. I'm concerned in the church when sometimes there's an over emphasis on the intellect at the expense of emotion. Sometimes there's an over emphasis on emotionalism and experience within the church. And I see this all the time, John, that people are tempted to think that musicians, pastors, or others, just because we're on stage, sing or preach with passion or boldness are closer to the Lord. Do you share this concern with Christian music in particular where there can be an over emphasis on emotion?

emotionalism in evangelicalism and just feed this rather than lead towards real grounding in character theology. In other words, do we put emotion in its place or does Christian music elevate it too much in a way that's potentially unhealthy? I think yes, yes and more yes to all of that. You know, Sean, I think when you encounter the Lord in a real and a profound way, it can be very impactful in regards to our emotions. There can be times where you know you find yourself at the foot of the cross in repentance and I mean authentic repentance not an emotional height where tears are just streaming down your face. I think we are a people who we're moved by something and we love to swing the pendulum in the extreme, either left or right. I love an incredible encounter with the Lord.

but I refuse to allow an emotional higher experience for form my theology. I'm not against the great experience, but my experience doesn't create my theology. The word of God creates my theology. So I'm not against an experience, but hang on, let me go back to scripture. What does the scripture talk about self-control? What does the scripture talk about, you know, the fruit of the spirit? you know are we called to bear experiences and bear gifts or are we call it are we call to bear fruit so i'm finding that place of god help me to walk a balanced life i i never want to become so callous or

hardened that i can't experience the lord in a deep and profound way emotionally at times but my my barometer to whether God is present. Is that meant by the amount of goosebumps? How many tears I shared? There's times I've been in the presence of the Lord and I have felt absolutely nothing. But according to scripture, God is there. He doesn't need my invitation.

Whether you go to the north, south, east, west, the highest mountain, the deepest depths of the ocean, God is there. So I'm learning there are times where I guess we may encounter the Lord on a mountain top experience, but we don't live there. And there's times where we may go through our walk with the Lord and experience nothing. But that doesn't mean that intimacy has been negated or switched off. So I'm kind of like you.

I'm looking at this in an honest, biblical way. But like I said, I refuse to allow an experience to shape my theology. Amen to that. Let's interpret our experience through our theology, our theology through our experience. One of my mentors said to me probably 20 or 25 years ago, John, they said, you know, at the top of a mountain

trees don't grow. They grow in the bottom. You can have a mountain top experience, but that's not actually where growth itself takes place. And I just remembered that. It's just such a simple point that's true. Now, I'd love to get your take on this. We've heard a lot of

stories of deconstruction and deconversion. Again, pastors and apologists. not just Christian artists. But if you had to sum it up, why do you think we're hearing so many stories of Christian artists who have abandoned the faith

and or failed morally? I think two things. First of all, with the deconstruction, I think the foundation is on sand. And I think they're trying to deconstruct because the foundation of their core conviction, what is it built on the foundation? And I'm sorry to the listener or the viewer, if they hear me saying repetitively the importance of it is written and the authenticity of our foundation.

And I look at, and I know people that have gone down the road of deconstruction, but I guarantee you if you would talk to these people and go back to ground zero on the fundamentals that they had built their lives on. and for whatever reason those foundations crumbled, I guarantee you that those foundations were never built on solid scriptural perspective and biblical worldview. They may have had a perception or an opinion of foundational truths, but I guarantee you it was built on sand. Isn't it amazing how I think the enemy creates nothing? The enemy always loves to distort what God has created.

You know, you look at the scripture, I guess in a sense, Sean, we're all of changing and being renewed and deconstructing by the spirit of God who we were pre-Christ. And there is a deconstruction, I guess, in a sense of the way we used to think. And the scripture now is deconstructing and renewing our minds from a biblical perspective. Our lives are being deconstructed, but recrubstructed. created now as a new creature in Christ. The problem with the deconstruction, they're trying to take God's place, being at the helm of the deconstruction, where it's the work of the Holy Spirit. It's the work as we draw closer and the eyes of our understanding as we grow on revelation of who God is and who we are now, according to God's design.

You know, we are. I guess the old man is being renewed, deconstructed, dying. You know, I guess that's a daily thing. You know, how can you follow Christ and not die to South daily? Take up your cross. You know, we're constantly being renewed. So I understand where they're coming from. The problem is they put themselves in a driver's seat and they put themselves in the place of God Almighty at being at the harm of how we deconstructed. and how we rebuild and redo the wiring. And that's the job of the Holy Spirit, mate. And when we get involved with our humanistic perspective or our humanistic views or our humanistic take on how many genders God has and is God binary or not, when man gets involved, you know, you're rewiring and distorting the DNA in the circuitry

of how God initially created us. So sorry for the long answer, but like I said, I understand where deconstructionists and that whole thing are coming from, but I guarantee you the foundation was not built correctly, and now they're taking the role of the Holy Spirit of deconstructing and putting themselves back together,

and we were never meant to be in the driver's seat when it comes to that mate. That is a very interesting observation. Number one, it's biblical, of course, Jesus talks about your foundation not being on sand, but how much do deconstruction and deconversion stories reveal what was or wasn't there to start with? That's a really fair question to go back to. I'm eager to get to your story because it's riveting and I know my viewers and listeners are going to love it, but I have two more questions for you before we jump in.

You wrote something in your book that I've thought about a lot because I came from what some people would call on a celebrity, not really a pastor, but celebrity evangelist. So I grew up with a father with a mega platform. And I have a platform of my own today. So I think about what's called celebrity culture. In Newsboy, you wrote this. You said people were never meant to be worshipped or placed on pedestals as if they were gods. Celebrities, icons and leaders, whether in the world or the Christian faith are not immune to this. In fact, the pedestal is one of the most dangerous places a human being can stand. Agree 100%. If being on a pedestal is so dangerous, why should Christians even aspire to be

celebrity pastors, influencers, rock stars, authors, YouTubers and so on? Wouldn't we be better served to just say as Christians this is not something we're aspiring towards and just live quiet, faithful lives? How would you respond to that? people ask me that question i've been asked that question i guess many times whether it's a celebrity platform um whether it's the fame the influence the success the money the lifestyle people have asked me do i have a perspective and a strong core conviction now that all those things are evil things out to shipwreck you and take you under and i got to be honest and saying i don't believe that the problem wasn't the pedestal, even though like I wrote about in the book, it can be such

a dangerous place. The problem wasn't the lifestyle or the money or the platform or the fame or success. The problem was always the foundation. If you're struggling with credit card debt, you're not alone. The stress, the interest rates, the endless payments, it can feel like there's no way out. But there is. At Trinity debt management, they have helped thousands of people just like you become debt free. They work with you. your creditors to lower your interest rates and consolidate your bills into one affordable monthly payment. Most of their members have saved thousands and even improved their credit score. You'll get a clear plan, personal support, and the peace of mind that comes to knowing you're

finally taking control. Don't wait another day feeling trapped by debt. Call Trinity Debt Management and be debt-free for keeps at 1-800-7-9-3-8548. That's 1-800-793-8548 because you can live a life without debt and Trinity can help you get there. Trinity Debt Management. Be debt-free for keeps. You know, I have two daughters and it's my prayer that they would be blessed and be absolutely successful in life and experience God's incredible blessing and favor in their life. But I understand the thing that keeps all of that is in perspective is the foundation. And what the problem, why my world fell apart wasn't because the fame, the success, the platform, the money.

It was the foundation. It was the anchors that I cut from my life that set me up for a shipwreck. And so I say to folks, no, they're not evil things. But the way we manage them, the way we walk with integrity and authority and of this authenticity is by continuing to build on the solid foundation, continuing to have those safety nets and accountability structures in our life, continuing to have people in our lives that know us warts and all and are able to get in our face and challenge us in regards. to the responsibility of being ambassadors, of servants, as follows of Christ. So I look at that now, and somebody might say, well,

you'll, I guess God and His mercy and grace is giving you a platform again. Are you fearful that again, you could be being set up for a four? And this may shock the listener or the viewer, but they're absolutely right, Sean. And I know the wickedness of the heart and how deceitfully wicked the heart can be. I think my greatest strength in life now is knowing my weaknesses and now I'm deliberate with the

accountability and the foundation and the structure in my life that, Sean, I've got to be honest, I never had before. I never had those safeguards that accountability. I was never plugged in, honestly plugged in, and under accountability in a local church. I never had people speaking into my life that loved me enough, to be honest with me, you know, that weren't intimidated to speak up because they're on my payroll. So that's kind of my, I hope I answered your question with that and the listener. That's kind of where I feel about that today.

I agree with you on that. I obviously wouldn't do this. it's sinful to be an author or a speaker or a YouTuber. I do these things. I think God has called me in the sense of equipped me and given me an opportunity to do them. I think the difference is Christians. We gauge success differently than the world. It's not by numbers. It's not by praise from people. It's from faithfulness and hopefully treating others differently. And so if we go into these platforms or these opportunities and our metric of success is the world's success, we're going to burn out. We're going to morally fail.

But if that's not our metric of success and that's not where our identity comes from, then we're much more able to use it positively for the kingdom. That's how I look at it. I have one more question for a John before we jump in. Absolutely. about I'm just throwing this out there. I think about three months before Michael Tate came out and just confessed to just the sexual misconduct. And for those people not following, he was the lead singer for years for the newsboys, about a decade or 12 years after you were there. And I asked him. I asked him. I asked him, and Jeff Frankenstein came on. I asked him about why musicians are failing. I asked him all of these questions, not knowing this announcement. was coming in three months. So in part, my question is, do you have any intel on what the newsboys are doing now? Are they coming back?

Can they weather this storm? Is it time to close up shop? Or are you like, Sean, I have moved on and I don't even know what's going on? I guess a little bit of both. It's funny, Sean, you know, I was with the newsboys for over 16 years, almost 18 years. And although I left the band almost 30 years ago, can you believe. The story and the testimony of the newsboys, good and bad, was still a part of my legacy and story. I don't know what the future holds.

I personally don't think the band will be able to come back with the current setup and arrangement. that they have with the newsboys. But I have to also be willing to step back and understand from God's perspective how he's able to step into the most broken, toxic, dysfunctional, tragic scenario. And somehow, in the midst of that, he's able to orchestrate an incredible redemptive story

Now, my prayer is that God would use the tragedy of the newsboys and the Mike Tate thing as an incredible testament and a redemptive story of what he's wanting to do. Because at the end of the day, Sean, for you, for myself, for the listener, for the viewer, if we take not only the redemption for us as sinners coming to Christ for the first time, but for the prodigals, if we take the possibility of God, incredible redemption to bring people back to the foot of the cross and repentance, then we're no better than the Pharisees. Now, I don't know how he's going to do that, but I look at my story, mate, the epitome of my whole story, the fact that I can be here with you today shouts of God's incredible redemptive story in my life. Did I deserve it?

Absolutely not. The many people think, well, you don't deserve to be here. Probably absolutely true. But God in his mercy and His grace drew me back to the foot of the cross in repentance. And he chose to breathe life into me and pick me up. And for whatever reason, use me again as a testimony of his redemption, of his redemption, of his greatness. See, what I'm realizing now

in this latter part of my life, Sean, for years I used to think that I was the star of the movie being written about my life. I was the star of the script of my life. But now I'm realizing, crikey, I was never the star. It was all of ways about him.

I was just blessed to be a supporting actor in God's redemptive story of what he's doing. So I don't know what tomorrow looks like for the newsboys. If there will ever be a newsboys as we know it again. But what I look forward to with great excitement and anticipation and hope is that God would take the mess. And as he has done all through history, he's able to take the brokenness and weave a powerful redemptive story out of it. And that's my prayer.

That's my wife. that's what I pray for the band made. I don't know what tomorrow it looks like, but I'm praying that down the road we'll look back and say, wow, God, you still were able to bring a redemptive good story out of this. And that's my prayer and hope. John, this is a perfect segue to your own story

and the redemption you've experienced. And again, you talk about in your book, Newsboy. But your story really begins with the dysfunction in your home, with your father, with your parents' divorce, what happened? And how did that affect you? Yeah, you know when you're a child growing up and you're not able to articulate or understand the yelling, the fights, the shouting, but you're like a little sponge. And even as a child, you don't realize emotionally, mentally, physically, how cognitively

we're being rewired. As a teenager, you're kind of dealing with the complexity of... puberty, a teenager and everything. But what you find is you continue to grow in life and you may move away from that toxic environment. So often we have a self-preservation mechanism that we kind of suppress. You know, I'm over it. I'm an adult now.

I ignore it. It was just a crazy time. I've moved on in life. And we so often don't realize that knowingly or unknowingly cognitively, it's like the circuitry, emotional. emotionally in certain areas of our life are just broken, but we overcompensate. We maybe, for me, I use whether it was humor or sarcasm or different things. We can compensate with work, keeping busy.

We overcompensate for those areas that are deficient in our lives. I remember once my wife was saying to me, she was talking about an emotional area, and she was being incredibly transparent and she said to me, how do you feel about that area? And I had to be honest and I said to her, imagine if our emotions are like an emotional EQ. And there's certain frequencies in my emotional makeup that just aren't there. They don't work. I can't adjust them because the slate is blank. I don't even know how to confront it and how to talk to it.

And at the time, I never understood the psychology of it. But I realized those formative years growing up in a broken, abusive, a toxic, a dysfunctional family would rewind me emotionally and mess me up for years. I just never had the capacity to face it, articulate it, or especially as a man, or I don't need help. on fine. Right. And we can be so dysfunctional. And it's not until years later if you're able to get help or people are able to help you walk through that or allowing now the Lord to come. Sometimes we think, why is God wanting to bring up stuff from years in the past?

I've moved on. But so often God is wanting to go back to those areas, those hurts, those wounds. those things that we've even forgotten and bring an emotional healing of those scars and sometimes even into our late years in life we aren't even aware how broken we are in those areas because we've overcompensated now and we have no ability to identify them and honestly look at them it's like we're blind and we can't even see them others may see them but we don't so you know I look at my broken childhood little did I know that as an adult, when I was married with the newsboys in my first marriage, all those things

would affect my outcome in life, who I was, all those things knowingly or unknowing would come back to bite and damage me in regards to how I was going to respond now as an adult in my marriage, in my family. How now would I respond? You know, would I do things totally different or the things that I saw my biological father do who for years I said I'll never be like that and yet yon and behold i find myself repeating and cloning a lot of those toxic things that my dad did that my family was but I swore I'll never do that I'll never have a marriage I'll never be a dad like that I'll never be a husband like that and lo and behold I I was like reincarnated of my dad figuratively speaking i say that um of course reproducing reproducing the very things i saw in him that i

detested it for many years hated about my dad isn't that bizarre it it really is it's just wired within us we we naturally become whether we want to or not like our fathers it's just it's like the way god has built it which shows the power and importance of being a good model to our kids but of course we're getting ahead of ourselves. In the book, you walk through how you were drawn to the Christian faith and you had an experience with Jesus early on. You tell a story of just kind of starting the newsboys, which originally was called the news and just kind of fun story behind that. But before we get to some of the cracks that emerge in your life that you're hinting at, for maybe people who don't know, in the mid-90s, how big was the newsboys and what kind of opportunities were you getting? Oh, back then, crikey, we were in an incredible position and season where we were reaching

millions of people, filling the biggest arenas in the nation, seeing so many people being reached through the platform of music, bringing a message of hope found in Christ. Not only were we signed in the Christian music industry by back then, We were stars on records, but we actually signed with a secular label also. We were signed to a Virgin Records. And at the time, you know, we was sharing that label with, you know, Lenny Kravitz, Janet Jackson and, you know, all these secular artists. And we were the only Christian band and I think Virgin that they had ever signed back then.

And what was so amazing about that, that I just took so much joy when, whenever we would play in a city, because we were now signed with Virgin Records, the Virgin reps had to come out and support one of their artists. And I think initially many of them came out thinking, oh, there's going to be some cheesy band and a Christian band with guys in long flowing gowns and wearing sandals and tambourines and chanting kumboyar. And they would rock up to these arenas with several semis and the most incredible equipment. I think that year

the Rolling Stone magazine said that the newsboys take me to your leader tour was one of the most successful and biggest tours on the road, Christian or secular. And just to see these Virgin record guys just in awe and blown away

at the level of excellence, the level of the production and the show and everything and that it was actually not like anything that envisioned. To me, I love that because I guess it not only powerfully where we set our message of who we are as Christians, but allowing it the music and the... If you're struggling with credit card debt, you're not alone.

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Trinity debt management. Be debt free for keeps. And the excellence and the whole package to reach so many people. I, you know, I'm still humble today, Sean, wherever we traveled. Years later, everywhere my wife and I speak, I always, without fail, have somebody come up to me and say, look, you don't know me, but 30 years ago, 40 years ago, I was at this concert that a friend took me. I wasn't even a Christian.

And that night changed my life forever. And I met Christ that night. And story like story after that, it's always constantly humbled how God used a bunch of misfit kids from the back end of Australia in a garage, or in the heck out of the neighbors. And he chose to use us to bring us to America and give us a platform. to use music as a vehicle to reach people,

but then when we had their attention to preach an authentic gospel. And I think the news boys, when I was with the band, we always did our best to do that. Did we always get it right? No. But when I was with the band, I think we were always mindful and passionate about the platform we had was an incredible opportunity to share the gospel.

And, mate, we didn't care where we were. If it was appropriate or not, mate. We were just, we were just, yeah. And what was funny, when we were with Virgin, they helped open up a lot of secular festivals and stuff. So we would be playing at these events. And we're the only Christian band there. But it was brilliant, mate.

We never ever compromised. We were uniquely who we were, and we were never ashamed of that. Hence the album about never being ashamed in the song. But I just want to make sure for younger people watching this, they don't miss. When I was in high school and college, college. You guys were it. You were the big band. And the fact that my dad had traveled with the guys

was like, that made me so proud. I was like, dang, my dad's preaching up there. Like it was just the cool, fascinating cutting edge band. You had it all that people would say from the outside. This guy must be happy. Must be fulfilled. He is living the life. God is blessing him. But tell us about the cracks that begin to emerge in your life that ultimately resulted in you leaving the band. Yeah, you know, we all want success. I think that, you know, our culture today idolizes and worship success. And I guess, you know, we all want to be successful. We want our children to be successful.

But we don't, like you said, we don't really talk about, well, if you are successful and you're living the dream and you have the lifestyle, the platform, the influence, what sort of pressure does the success put on your character, on your foundation, on your marriage, on your sexuality of your of your foundations in life? And I got to let folks know, Sean, at the heights of success, gaining the world, living the dream, I guess, in the Christian music industry in America. I never woke up one day in my big house in Nashville and and sat on the edge of my bed and thought, right, what's on the agenda today? You know, what am I going to do this month, this, this week?

I know, I'm going to destroy my marriage. I'm going to destroy my family. I'm going to destroy my children, my career, my ministry. I'm going to destroy everything. It never happened like that, Sean. And like you said, the cracks that began to appear. I look back now and I realize that it was a journey of. making tragic mistakes of allowing little compromises to begin to infiltrate your life.

A little compromise here, a little compromise here, it's no big deal. A little look at something on the internet over here that I shouldn't be like. Ah, it's no big deal. No one will know. But mate, little did I realize that when you start to erode the foundations of your life and allow those cracks of compromise starting to. infiltrate. It may seem small at the time, but may eventually, it's going to, it's going to affect every year of your life. I mean, it's going to affect your marriage, your integrity, your authenticity,

you know, your standard of holiness with the Lord. It is, it is going to creep in like leaven into a loaf of bread. I mean, it's going to get through area. But should you know better, yes. do you see it yes but how do you go to people when you're one of the biggest christian bands in the world one of the biggest christian ministries in the world how do you go to people now and say i'm struggling in my marriage i'm struggling in my identity i'm struggling in my identity I'm struggling with the choices that I'm making now because not only is it your livelihood at stake, it's a whole band members and their families and livelihood at stake.

So unfortunately, Sean, we buy into the tragic deception in the lie that we wear a mask and the show must go on. And it's a terrible place to be. when you know behind the doors things are coming undone but you feel the pressure of the responsibility you know we must win the loss at any cost well what cost my marriage my integrity my my family you know like what what what cost and it's a it's a tragic place to be made so tell us what happened when you were at the point where that that snowball was picking up steam so to speak where the curtain finally fell and how'd you reveal it to the band and then kind of what

immediately happened yeah i i think it was a twofold thing i i was really losing perspective on my ability to honestly function as the lead singer and i was negating my responsibility of what was required not only spiritually but in regard to to vocally and songwriting and as the vocalist as the front man and I was really running on fumes running on empty so a lot of the responsibilities that were meant to be mine as the lead singer were being negated to other band members where I was I was drastically mentally and feeling like I was getting to a place where you know I was this foundational member of this band a front man and now I'm feeling eventually like I'm nothing more than dead weight.

So there was a side of me that I didn't want to let go of the position, of the platform, of the success, of the lifestyle. But I was being eaten alive on the inside body, emptiness and hypocrisy of who I was becoming. So a part of me wanted to be exposed. Part of me wanted to stay hidden. Part of me wanted to be exposed just to, just so I don't have to carry the guilt and the shame and the burden of this double life. And I remember we were in Peter's, the drummer, and he was carrying a lot of the vocals now,

unfortunately, even in the studio. But we were at his home and we were cutting a song, a new song for the new album, Step Up to the Microphone, and it was a song called Entertaining Angels. And we took a break and we were in the kitchen. And I did The Unthinkable, mate. I think I decided I had resounded in my heart that I was going to pull the trigger and let the cat out of the bag. And I remember while we were taking a break at Peters home in the kitchen, I just pulled him aside and I began to pour out everything. And a lot of the stuff, I think it just stopped him in his tracks because some of the things, personal things I shared that were going on in my life.

It was pretty devastating to him. And he was like, wow, okay. So we ended the conversation. We went back to work and nothing was said, but I knew I had let the cat out of the bag, so to speak. And Peter was one of the foundational members like I was. And so Peter went to our management. And the next day or so, I was calling to the office and they just said, John, we can't have you on stage now and, you know, in this position anymore with what you're going. through so we're going to force you to step down and resign.

Boom. It's out now, mate. There's no, there's no turning back now. Wow. And one side of me was incredibly relieved, but the other side, unfortunately, I think, opened up a Pandora's box for me with now what the enemy was going to implement in my life to take me down a toxic road to rock. kill and destroy because there was no one speaking into my life, there was no accountability, there was no structure in my life to help me navigate through redemption and healing. So the weight was off, mate.

The burden, I didn't have to hide anymore. So instead of tragically, Sean, instead of running to God, I ran in the opposite direction. Well, I don't want to steal the thunder from the book, but help people understand what level of, so two things. When you really hit rock bottom, what does that mean? And then that phone call you get from your wife, which seems, if it's not a miracle, it's awfully close to divine timing. So help us understand the rock bottom you hit what that was like. And then that call that was so significant. Yeah, you know, sometimes it's even difficult to talk about openly and transparently.

But, you know, you get to a place where you're, not that I ever didn't believe in God or I didn't in some form still love God. But, mate, like the enemy comes, sin comes to rob, kill and destroy. And the enemy takes you down a dark road. and I self-medicated, Sean, escaping from reality and the responsibility that I should have manned up as a husband, as a father. I should have manned up and fell at the foot of the cross and cried out to the Savior in repentance. But I chose not to. And I self-medicated through alcohol and substance abuse. and you get to a place, Sean, of being so broken, so lost,

that even the most, at one time, most rational, the most educated, the most solid, the most grounded person, when you start to walk down that road of destruction, you start to think thoughts now and contemplate things that before in your sound mind, you would never have even started to think about. You start thinking about the pain will never end. There's no tomorrow. There's no hope.

You are so broken and lost that the only way you're going to get any relief is by the tragic, tragic lie of taking your own life. And you start contemplating things, Sean, that honestly in your life before you would never in a million years think of something like that. But now the liar, the deceiver, the enemy is now has a foothole and a strong hole because you've opened up your life to him. Now you're contemplating thoughts that you never ever thought. And I remember that one night where you refer to where, mate, I was so on the bottom with no exit plan, no way out. And feeling the enemy just screaming accusation, you're, you're a, you're, you're, you're, a failure. You failed your wife, you failed your children, you failed your family, you failed your ministry, but most of all, you failed God. God loved you and believed in you so much. He gave you

the world as a platformed and an incredible minister and this is how you say thank you. And you start hearing this voice, the accusation so loud. It's like constantly screaming that you decide, I'm going to end it. I'm going to end it. And I remember that dark night where I had hit rock bottom, Sean, contemplating terrible thoughts of ending things and went out of the blue. Like you said, the phone rang and it was my wife at the time calling from the other side of the world with, she had no idea what I was going through, but she had the, you know what, That incredible woman had a revelation, not in regards to the possibility of our marriage being restored, because I had totally destroyed that woman.

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And that scared her so much that the man she used to love, the first, father of her children would go to hell. And that was the motivation that caused her to pick up the phone and call me. And you talk about divine, like you said, intervention at her calling at that exact moment. And long story short, that conversation led to her wanting me and telling me to come back to Australia. All she knew is that I had to get out of that place, get out of America, and get as far, as I could, away from that world and we're better than the other side of the world with my family in Australia. And I threw a bunch of excuses at her. Oh, it's the busy. I'll never get a

ticket. It's too late. It's crib. Ah, you know, 101. And then she threw back and said, I booked you a ticket. It leaves in a couple of days. Already. Wow. So I hopped on a plane and somehow. I don't even remember, Sean, it's a blur. I was so intoxicated. It's a miracle. I don't even know how they let me on the plane. I somehow, I got on a plane. I went back to Australia and I thought, I'll go back and patch things up.

And get back to America. I've got to get back to America. Australia's got nothing for me. Get back to America. I'm still clinging on to the delusion of, oh, don't you know who I am? I'm John James from the News Voice. Well, actually, no, I'm not with them, but I'm John James.

That was from the newsboys. And I thought I would go back to Australia, a bit of a get away, have a holiday and come back. Mate, when I went back to Australia through circumstances and situations, man, you talk about God closed the door.

And God, through his sovereignty, saved my life and took me to the wilderness to die. He set me up, mate. And he made him. he made it impossible for me to come back to America at that time. And it wasn't until years later that he saw fit according to his purpose and plan that he chose to again bring me back here as a missionary. But mate, when I went back to Australia, I thought I had it all planned out. Little did I know that he was taking me to the wilderness to die.

There's so many twists and turns in your story. But that call from your wife, I mean, given the way you destroyed. that you treated her, she'd have been morally justified and just never reaching out again. Yet it was that moment, such a humble, loving thing to do. Like, I got goosebumps when I was reading that. But I want to ask you one more part about your story that I did not see coming was your father coming to faith was unbelievable. And then you had a similar kind of experience that your father had that really helped bring

you back. Tell us about that, if you will. Thank you for bringing that up. Even now, mate, the way you said that and the way you framed, it just made me tear up, mate. The testimony of my dad and, you know, the very person that was responsible for utterly destroying my family, my biological dad, probably as a child I thought the most wicked man

that I'd ever met. The very person that emotionally and mentally, physically, shipwrecked my family for years, the scars that that man inflicted ran so deep, Sean. But that man was the very vehicle God was going to use to be a redemptive story, that my dad on the other side of Australia had such an encounter. I mean, at the foot of the cross in repentance,

you talk about a road to Damascus, experience, not just for, I had a great experience. It profoundly changed the course of my dad's life so profoundly and deeply that he changed, instantly changed the direction his life was going and he led his new wife to the Lord. That was my stepmother that I'd never met. And then he hopped on a plane and flew to where we all lived in Australia and he starts to leave, you know, his ex-wife to Lord, her new husband, my stepdad, all my sisters, my brother to the Lord. Several of them went on to be pastors of wonderful churches in Australia. It's, you know, the very man that destroyed my family was the vehicle that God used to be

the redeeming testimony of redemption to bring my whole family back together. And, you know, my dad went on to become my great family's patron. If it wasn't for my biological dad, my family would not have a future in the kingdom of God. And that's bizarre. God can do that. My dad is one of the greatest men I've ever known. One of the greatest role models and influences in my life. And as long as I live, the Lord willing, I will, as many days as I left, I always shout and boast about God of the importance.

possible, how he redeemed my family, saved my family through my dad. Come on. And that's why I always encourage when my wife and I speak, especially when I'm speaking to men at men's events, I encourage we men to say, how dare we sit there in our brokenness and dysfunction and tell God what he can and can't do with our mess, what God can and can't do with our lives? So my dad was the most wonderful influential person in my life. He's gone home to be with the Lord now. I never forget my dad used to say to me, son, never give up on people.

No matter how broken, no matter how lost, no matter how far they may seem from God, my dad used to say, if that person has a heartbeat, then there's hope. My dad used to say, that heartbeat is like a prayer that says hope, hope, hope.

My dad used to say, son, you can't change the past. We all have a yesterday. We all have scars. We all have a past. We're all sinners. You can't change the past, but just like the Bible says, today is the day of salvation. Today his mercy is renewed anew, afresh, his goodness.

Today is the day that the Lord has made. And man, I miss my dad so much. And both my biological mom and dad have gone home to be with the Lord now. But what a profound influence that man had on my family, eh? But God. John, you're moving me to tears, man, thinking about my own dad because I'm from the US. You're from Australia. You can sing.

I got zero singing skills. But we have in common that we have dads from. broken backgrounds. You know my father's story of there was second abuse that was there. There was an alcoholic father, a sister who took their own life. My dad's dad saying to him, you know, you were a mistake. And my dad being radically transformed by Christ. And it was a little reverse.

He was able to love his dad supernaturally and see his father come to Christ. My grandfather, who I never met, my mom never met him. as he died from a life of alcoholism, but led about 100 people in his small town in Michigan to Christ because he just was so dramatically changed. And I think the same way about my dad that you do yours. So I had a bunch of other questions. I want to ask you, but I think this is such a good point to kind of bring your story full circle. Let me end with this last question.

or this last question. We've talked a lot about people deconstructing their faith. You shared your story of falling away. And really the theme of your book and your life and every answer is God, don't give up on people. God can redeem. You have a song you now sing called God of the second chance. So anybody watching this right now and is like I failed, is there redemption for me? Let me tell you, there is.

And John James' story proclaims this. maybe share this story with them, get a copy of Newsboy, give it to them. But what would your advice be for influencers? Because when you started, there were some gatekeepers. There were people who put on tours. You had a manager. There were people albums. There were some gatekeepers that were there. Now with social media and YouTube and other platforms, there's literally no gatekeepers at all. What advice would you give to young Christians? And I mean someone who wants to be a writer, maybe someone who wants to be a speaker or an apologist, wants to be an influencer in some fashion.

What would your advice be for them? Find a father, find a mother, find a mentor, find somebody that can speak into your life. You know, I turned 62 this year, Sean. and I'm embarking on the most incredible adventure of my life with this new season with the book and music, the first music I've done in 30 years, mate. You talk about God at a second chance. For 30 years, I said, I'll never sing again and I never did. I was so broken.

And about a year and a half ago, God rebreeved on that area. But I have people, mate, that speak into my life, that people. that I that I'm accountable to people who believe in me and and champion me and and help me to stay grounded um it's such a bizarre world today you know for 30 years mate I I I lived on an island in regards to social media I just in the last couple of months I've just started getting on social media I'm like a fishy out of water when I was at the news was this world never existed, but I realize the incredible platform and influence people have today. Everyone has a platform of influence now because of the internet and social media.

I want to encourage people. When Jesus spoke to the crowd and it was their version of social media back then with the Pharisees and the different ones in the street markets that used to say long prayers, That was their version of social media back there. And Jesus wasn't against the proclaiming of the word or the preaching in the marketplace. He called out the Pharisees because of the hypocrisy of their heart. There's things about social media today that, oh, I just don't get. I don't understand.

Like I said, I feel like a fish out of water. But I realize that social media in its essence is a powerful tool. But the importance to keep things in perspective, just like Jesus said to the crowd about the hearts of the Pharisees that are all about show, about me, myself and look at eye. We all have the responsibility more than ever of the authenticity and the integrity of our hearts. Why are we doing this? Are our podcasts? Are our shows? Is it all about the algorithm?

Is it all about how many subscribers, how many likes, how many followers, how many followers, how many followers, how many followers? how many followers, how many thumbs up. Now, I get all those things. And they can help us get the message out. But I want to encourage listeners, would you still do what you do if barely anyone watched? I mean, if you're only reaching one or two people,

would you be just as passionate? You know, sometimes we feel social media. We can use it to praise the Lord. Hey, I want to praise God because he used me to feed all these. these poor people. All glory to God, but here is me feeding the poor and it goes all over social media. My question is, if you never posted that on social media and the only one who saw that was the Lord, would you still do it? So it comes back to always, Sean, with what you do with your platform,

with my platform now, the authenticity of the motivation of the heart behind why we do it. So I say to young influences, get a mentor, get a dad, get a mom, get somebody that can be that foundational safety net, speaking into our lives, encouraging us. But always, mate, be so mindful of the attitude of the heart of why we do what we do. Keep that heart in check, hey, mate. Amen. The heart is the wellspring of life. You know, get wisdom and protect your heart.

One of my mentors, Jay Warner Wallace, said the very same thing to me. He was like, would you do what you do if there was no audience and people didn't watch? And it was such a good heart, gut check for me. Who is my audience? Why do I do what I do? And that encouragement to young influencers is huge. Thanks for sharing that. By the way, and that's one reason I love teaching.

I teach an apologetics program at Talbot School theology. And I have a lot of people who want to come study apologetics, theology, and it's a way of mentoring people over meal, over Zoom, in class. And so people are watching this going, okay, I need some theological depth. Come study with us at Talbot. I would love to be a mentor to influence you in your life. That's you for everybody. We have students who are in their 70s, but especially younger ones.

We love to have you too. John. You know what's funny, Sean. Oh, go ahead, please. When can I, it's funny. I didn't mean to just throw another thing in. No. You know, when Jesus was, went to the wilderness for the first time, the fast,

when he's first fast for the 40 days. And it's funny when the enemy come to tempting, we know the scriptures so well, three times. Every time the way he combated the attack of the enemy, what it is written. Amen. Every time without fail. I think the enemy would love nothing better in America, in Christodom, in the, Christodom, in the church in America, if there was a generation on the earth today that were illiterate.

I sure we know the latest statistics and the latest is and the latest podcast and the latest say, but in regards to illiterate, in regards to what does it is written say? Now, you can have an opinion. We all have opinions, but as long as my opinion doesn't supersede. If you're struggling with credit card debt, you're not alone. The stressed interest rates, the endless payments, it can feel like there's no way out. But there is. At Trinity Debt Management, they have helped thousands of people, just like you, become debt-free.

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And the only way we're going to know what it is written says is if we're all avid, passionate students of the word, disciples of the word, spending the time, mate, spending the time just studying God's word and allowing God to teach us and show us. And, you know, one day we're all going to stand before the Lord. And, you know, I haven't always gotten things right in my. life but God's not finished with me yet and I am doing my best to finish well Lord I can't change yesterday but today I make a decision every day when I wake up God I want to live a life today that brings honor and glory to you because one day when I stand before God made all I want to hear is

well done incredibly little handsome ball man with an accent I don't want to hear I depart from me I never knew you. And, you know, I always encourage folks. I say, you know, I understand so many people today in the church are passionate about different things. But if you want to get it right, be somebody that is passionate and deliberate about living a life that bears good fruit. Because you're never going to hear the Lord say to anybody in heaven one day, depart from me. You bore way too much fruit for me. Hey? But you know what his response to other people who say, hey, well, I had a huge, I did this and I did

miracles and I prophesied and I, you know, healed the sick and cast out demons. I had a massive music ministry. I had a massive church. I had a massive following on social media. That means nothing to God. I never knew you. So let's learn to be trees that are passionate and mindful about bearing fruit mate good fruit i love it that is a wonderful message to end on that's a story of your life that's a story in your book news boy and folks pick up a copy i think you can pre-order it now it's not out for a while but this is one i'll be talking about sharing with folks for a while because it's honest it's heartfelt awesome and it's just a wonderful story so can i can i let folks know can i let folks know about the book.

Like you said, it's on Amazon, you can get the book. It's released June 2nd, but they're taking pre-orders. But what my wife and I have been doing, we're just to thank folks for ordering the book, how much we appreciate their support to get the message out. We're saying to folks, if you pre-ordered a book, go to our website and email us a screenshot of your order, and we'll give you a link to download my brand new album

that's not even out yet for free. So we've had so many people downloading God of the set, the whole album, all 11 songs, absolutely free just because they ordered the book to say thank you. Amazing, super cool. What a great bonus for people for getting it. That's a great way to motivate and bless people an album that was 30 years in the making. So you should rightly be super, super proud of that. John, this is a lot of fun.

Thoroughly enjoyed this. This brings back a lot of memories for me. Thanks for writing an honest book. And you are exactly the same enthusiastic, charismatic, interesting person I remember. So let's try to do it again sometime. Bless you, mate. Have a brilliant day. See you, brother.

See you, mate. Hey, friends. If you enjoyed this show, please hit that follow button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning in haven't done this yet. And it makes a huge difference in helping us reach and equip more people and build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every review helps. Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where we have on campus and online programs in apologetic, spiritual information, marriage and family,

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