The Sean McDowell Show - Famous Drummer Preaches Faith to Lenny Kravitz, Bobby Brown, etc. (w/ Zoro)

Episode Date: July 4, 2025

How does a World Renowned Drummer for people like Lenny Kravitz, Bobby Brown and Frankie Valli come to Jesus and continue to spread his ministry while drumming for these legendary musicians? Today, he tells us his story to faith and how he continues to evangelize and be a good example to these people to show his faith. READ: Maria’s Scarf: A Memoir of a Mother’s Love, a Son’s Perseverance, and Dreaming Big by Zoro (https://a.co/d/i2XLGoI)*Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf)*USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM)*See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK)FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowellTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=enInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/Website: https://seanmcdowell.org

Why would a world famous drummer who was voted the number one R&B drummer in the world numerous times be concerned with sharing and defending the Christian faith? What first led him to become a follower of Jesus? And how does he navigate living out his faith in the entertainment world when performing with artists such as Lenny Kravitz, Frankie Valli, Bobby Brown, and Philip Bailey of Wind and Fire, just to mention a few. Our guest today is Zorro. He's author of a new book called Maria Scarf,

which we'll get to. But Zorro, you and I first met backstage, not at a concert, but at a church you were a pastor at. You came walking in right away, I'm like, okay, who is this guy? He's unique, I had no idea about your story. Really quickly when we started talking, I was like, man, I've gotta have this guy on.

My audience is gonna love hearing his story. So thanks for being willing to join me. Oh, this is awesome. It was really just great meeting you backstage. Neither one of us knew each other, knew anything about each other, but we immediately connected, and then it just sort of unfolded like what happened. But no, it's great to be a guest on your show. of us knew each other and knew anything about each other, but we immediately connected and

then it just sort of unfolded like what happened. But no, it's great to be a guest on your show. Thanks for the honor and privilege. Well, before we get to your defense of the faith, how you navigate your faith, etc., just tell us a little bit about your family growing up, your background. Yeah. So I grew up in South Central Los Angeles, the first part of my life, known as the hood Compton. So I can wear the t shirt straight out of confidence. And it's for real. I grew up there. My mother was an immigrant from Mexico City. And he raised seven children alone, we were abandoned by our fathers. So the early part of my childhood was very difficult. We moved probably about 40 times by the time I was in the fourth grade. Sometimes we

moved in my radio red flyer wagon from furniture. We put our stuff in there in our boxes and moved to the next apartment because we were always getting evicted. So I had a very unstable childhood, very lived in abject poverty. But I had an incredible love of my mother Maria, which is why I wrote the memoir, kind of honoring her. But she had incredible faith and incredible vision and hope and that she instilled that in me. But yeah, life, and that was abandoned by my father,

but interestingly enough, the only thing he left me, here's a prophetic sign for you. The only thing he left me was a set of bongos in my, there's a picture of me with my stroller about 18 months, and underneath it are his bongos. He happened to be a grubber, but so I'm like, that's a prophetic destiny which I had no idea was coming. I wouldn't know that for many, many years.

But anyway, that's kind of how it all started. It's interesting you mentioned abandoned by your father. So you're with six or seven other siblings who have the same mom, but a different dad. You're moving around, there's disruption. You know, in some ways this could be a whole nother conversation, but as you look back, how did being raised even with an amazing mom,

how did that fatherlessness affect you just personally or spiritually or relationally? Well, it affected me greatly, and I honestly believe the effects of your childhood will be with you until you die. It's just you learn to navigate in spite of it. When I gave my heart to Jesus as a young boy, I've been on a journey with him ever since.

And I believe when you walk with God through the season of your life, you get better and you get more revelation and you get healing to a degree. But I don't think that the like the things that the way you do life from being fatherless is kind of with you. It's like an imprint that sort of never leaves. But I have learned to turn all the negative into something positive. So yes, and it was interesting growing up, not only did my father abandoned me, but I had access to him through my grandmother by sending him letters, but I never talked

to him. I never seen him. But so I spent all of my childhood writing him letters, and not understanding this as a kid trying to win his approval, but he never responded. He never entered my arena. So I didn't really realize that that sphere of rejection that I was facing day after day, year after year, month after month, I didn't realize, like, what that would do to me because as a kid you don't see it.

But looking back now as a man on my life, I was like, man, that's, you know, but I swore that one day when I would become a father, that I would become a great father and that I would be, the best part of my story really is not that I got to become a world renowned drummer because a lot of people accomplish things, but it's at the expense of their family,

their wives, their children, their health because they turn into drugs and stuff. The best part of my story is that I got to become the father to my children that I never had and I got to become the husband to my wife that my mother never found. These were choices I made. I wanted to be a great husband and I wanted to be a great father. And then also because of the fatherlessness, God used that for his glory because that that suffering that I had and that rejection is how I know how to love and inspire and encourage other people because it's coming.

It's coming from my pain. My purpose came out of the pain. And that's how I have been a father spiritually to countless people, thousands of people around the world, younger than me, older than me, famous, not famous, but I have that father's heart because of what I didn't have. So I remember once the Holy Spirit sort of spoke to me. And and and what what I felt was that he said, I'm going to you're going to become all the things you want that you wanted in a father,

you're gonna become that for other people. The very thing that you were looking for, which is encouragement, affirmation, love, acceptance, is what I was gonna use to pour into other people. So it really gave me a purpose in my life. A lot of times when you see people and they go through some suffering and whatever, then they kind of take up that mantle and that becomes like their purpose.

You know, if they lost somebody to a particular disease, now they're the advocate to fight against that disease. So for me, I became an advocate for fatherlessness and I've spoken in prisons, I've spoken in San Quentin, the most hardened criminals in the world, juvenile facility places, but I've also spoken of super famous people that were fatherless too. So God's used me kind of in all those arenas. criminals in the world, juvenile facility places, but I've also spoken of super famous people that

were fatherless too. So God's used me kind of in all those arenas. So, but I would say the, what sort of took me years to understand is that I always acted out that I had to prove myself. I had to prove myself in every setting, even though the public or people weren't demanding that. But to me, that rejection of the father all those years played a role in me thinking that no one could really like me for just me. I'd have to be super famous or super successful or super gregarious or super anything because I couldn't possibly be enough, just me.

And that's what the father wound does. And also in my case, it's one thing if he died in the war, you know, and you're a kid and then your dad's a hero and you have a different, but when you're constantly reaching out to him and he never responds, then in your mind as a kid, nothing you do is good enough. But God used that to, you know, to make me work harder because essentially in the

beginning of my career journey was like all to prove that I'm somebody I'm worthy of somebody's love, and I channeled that into positive energy. But then I've reached a point now in my life where I'm kind of like, you know, Lord, I'm kind of done with that. Like, like, like, like, it's taken me this many years. You know, I'm 62. It's taken me this many years to kind of go. I just need to rest in that I'm enough. I've always been enough, but you don't believe that when you've grown up rejected like that, you know, that and the poverty also, because when I've grown up, rejected like that. That and the poverty also,

because when I was a kid, we moved from Compton. Then we moved to like the opposite life change to rural Grants Pass, Oregon, which is like a country bumpkin town, like Little House on the Prairie or the Waltons. So we go from the hood to the Waltons. And there I was rejected and scorned because I was Mexican, My mother was from Mexico.

We lived in a car. We lived in a tent. We lived in a 13-foot camper. We didn't have electricity or running water. There I was scorned because I was poor and because my mother was Mexican, therefore I'm Mexican, even though I didn't grow up in Mexico or speak Spanish. There I was hated just for no reason. I grew up in Compton with one set of challenges

and then in Oregon with a whole nother set of, but all of that, I wouldn't trade it for a second because God was with me in the whole journey and it deepened my character, it deepened my strength, it deepened my courage, it deepened my empathy and compassion for other people because of the different kind of suffering I went through. There's no one I couldn't minister to, no one.

No one high enough and no one low enough. I've traveled with the most famous, wealthiest people in the world, and I've been to the jungles of Ghana, Africa, where I was the first non-black person they ever saw. So, and I went to San Quentin and preached, and I had grown men that are criminals that could have killed me with their breath and

they were crying and weeping after I shared my story and performed for them. So I think because of that diverse challenge of my childhood it set me up to like be a people person and it set me up to relate to people from any any walk of life and it's also just the way God pre-wired me but all of it is you know You don't really care have empathy or compassion for people Until you've gone through something. I remember when people would say oh, I lost my mom or I lost my dad And I would say the normal courteous thing, you know, like I'm so sorry. God, that's terrible You know and I would mean it to the degree that I could, but it

wasn't until I lost my mother that I knew what that felt like. And I didn't have, also our family was very difficult in the sense that most kids grow up with uncles and aunts and grandparents and all that, right? In my family, it was just my siblings, my six siblings and my mother. That was it. There were no relatives anywhere near us. They were all in Mexico. Nobody on my father's side wanted anything to do with me. So I grew up without any uncles or aunts, without any grandparents or cousins. So it was just my mother was everything to me and my my my siblings,

which they're all still alive, thank God. But when she passed, it was like, like, like I was like devastated because she was the only thing I ever had. So you get empathy more after you've gone through things. And then you can say, God, I'm so sorry you lost your mother because you mean it because you've gone through it. So I think naturally human beings are self-centered and they're selfish and they don't really think about other people.

But when you go through things, you either develop empathy or you develop bitterness. And I have always chosen, because of my mother's example, I've always chosen to see what good could come out of it and how God could use that to form me and to have more character. So I wouldn't trade a second of my background. It prepared me for service to God, almost like Moses. You know, he had to lose everything. And when he came to the end of himself, I remember in the movie, The Ten Commandments, Cecil B. DeMille comes on and says something like,

when a man has reached the end of himself when he was in the desert, he is now finally ready for the hands of his maker. Like God's gotta just squeeze everything out of you desert is now finally ready to for the hands of his maker. Like God's got to just squeeze everything out of you to where you have nothing left and now you need him, you know, and that's kind of I've reached those moments in my life where I I have learned to walk by faith from childhood, you know, and it's been an awesome awesome awesome journey and I've

been through some tight trenches and I've been you know, 1159 and 59 seconds. And like, if God doesn't rescue me, I'm going under, you know, it could have been financially, it could have been meritoriously, it could have been anything, but always he comes through like Moses, like the Exodus of the Red Sea. So all those hardships strengthen you, you know, and I think if you allow the hardships of life to

draw you closer to God, then you will be closer to Him. You will, you know, the Bible says that we, you know, trials and tribulations shall come to everyone, right? But the difference is when you have Him, you come out of it a different way than the people who don't have Him. You still have them, but you come out a whole different person, and it doesn doesn't destroy you and it doesn't turn you. You don't go postal and you don't go shooting your friends. You know what I mean? You come through it with a sense of,

I'm closer to my Heavenly Father. He walked me through this and he's interested in your character and interested in you and your faith walk with him. I really appreciate your vulnerability about fatherlessness. In many ways, I got a little bit choked up when you were talking about just how much it affected you not having a dad. And my dad's story was very similar to that, in some ways so different from yours, but he's had as much success as you're going to find.

Yeah, yeah. It comes from such brokenness and such hurt and yet has chosen to view that pain. He said to me, he goes, you know, I thank the Lord for my alcoholic father. He said that to me years ago. And I was like, you're gonna have to tell me about that one. And he told me the same thing that you did. Like God's used it to give me compassion,

to reach people, a heart for those who are broken. Yeah. And so your story just really, it's so powerful that you come from just so many challenges and backgrounds and yet you've had success and yet my dad would also say, I don't know, 160 books and all sorts of stuff.

He'd say, you know what, just that I'm a good dad and a good husband would be his greatest joy and you talked about that. Now take me back to when you said you were a boy is when you made a commitment to follow Jesus. What happened? Was this something from your mom? Tell us that story.

Yeah, well first of all, I was very, very young and I have a sister who's 10 years older than me, Maria. She's, her name's Maria as well, we call her Mary. But she's 10 years older than me and Maria. Her name's Maria as well. We call her Mary. But she's 10 years older than me. And she's constantly told me, she said, you know, when you were like six years old, five or six years old, she said, I would go and I would ask you, where have you been? What have you been doing? I don't have any recollection of this. Okay. But she has said it several times. She said, and you would say, I've been talking to Jesus. Now, I don't have any memory of it. But she

said, that's what I would always say as I was talking. So I don't know how to take that other than I would say I was set apart. Like I would say God had his hand on me from day one, even before I knew it. And before anybody could really explain God to me, I already felt He was like I felt there was a God just even as a kid like there was a God. Now my mother was a strong Catholic, eventually became more Christian, but she had very, very strong faith. She I watched her live her faith out because literally we were living hand to mouth and we don't know how we're going to make the next thing happen. And so I saw her go through incredible trials and tribulations, but she always said, you have to have faith in the Lord, son.

You have to have faith in the Lord. So she instilled that in me. But when we moved up to Oregon, prior to that I went to Catholic churches and the mass and all that other stuff. And then when we moved to Oregon, when we a, when we lived in the car and we were like, we had no running water, electricity or anything, lived in the car in the tent, a little tiny 11 foot camper, a guy by the name of Reverend Williamson, we called him Reverend, he was probably just a pastor, but we called him Reverend Williamson. He was the pastor of the Faith Baptist Church in Grants Pass. Well, I remember he opened his home to us so we could take hot showers because

we didn't even have running water. We were cleaning ourselves in the park and in the river and he and he also Would bring the faith Baptist Church van and put to our house and take us to church and and then I remember I didn't even have shoes But I really wanted to go camping very bad Couldn't afford to go camping So he paid for us and paid for me and my brother Bobby to have some shoes. And we went to this Christian camp that is still there

in the mountains near Ashland, Oregon. It's called Wilderness Trails. It's been there for probably 60 years. I spoke at their 50th anniversary. But anyway, it was one of those Christian camps for underprivileged kids and a lot of boys from juvenile delinquents and foster care and just kind of marginalized children.

And it was a week long camp where you go through the mountains and you have a donkey and you sleep in teepees. It was like every boy's dream. But at that camp, they gave you a little trail guide booklet which I still have. In fact, there's a picture of it in my memoir, Maria Scarf, there's a picture of my trail booklet

which teaches you the principles of walking with God and Jesus. But it was at the camp one night when they were talking about God and all these things, and the young men were ministering to us. And then I remember when they all went away, I stood by the campfire. I sat by the campfire myself, and I just prayed to God. And I said, God, you know, like Jesus, if you're there, would you forgive me for all my sins? And you know, because I already had plenty of sins by 12 or 13, doesn't take long. And I said, would you forgive me of my sins? And would you come into my heart? And then since I didn't get struck down by lightning, then I continued to prayer. And then I said, since I didn't get struck down by lightning, then I continued to prayer.

And then I said, and if possible, could you help me make my dreams come true? And I and I received. The Holy Spirit that day, and it was a it was a turning point, and it's interesting because in my memoir, Maria Scarf, the first half of the book is my trajectory from Compton and all that stuff into Oregon. And then literally in the middle of the book It's just the way it worked out is this experience with Christ where? Then you see a different kid emerge from like 12 or 13 all the way through the end of the book you could Constantly see the arc of the character because he came into my life

And so and even at that, I wanted to be a preacher. I still have the booklet that Pastor Reverend Williamson gave to me, and the booklet was called, How to Live Forever. I still have it in my possession. I still have it. And here's a great story for you. I mean, this will touch your heart. So I always wanted to thank Reverend Williamson,

and I always wanted him to know what had happened to my life. I wanted him to know that I succeeded and that I became a minister, that I preached all around the world, led thousands of people to the Lord, prayed for thousands of people. I always wanted him to know that

because it was his demonstration of love that was the turning point in my life. If he didn't buy me the shoes, I wouldn't have gone to the camp. If he didn't love on us, I would have not felt God's love in a tangible way physically from somebody who was demonstrating the love of Christ, right? But anyway, so I was 12 years old then, and then we moved away and I never saw him again. So that was

like 50 years ago, five zero. So I'm doing a book signing in Grants Pass, Oregon, where two-thirds of my book takes place. I'm at the public library, and where I, my mother used to read me all the books about dreaming and succeeding, and in walks Reverend Williamson. Incredible. 50 years later, and I, at the library, I decided to read the passage in the book about him, and I told the whole people the story. and To the to the very town where I'm doing the book signing where it all happened and he's there There wasn't a dry eye in the room and I was like only only God could orchestrate a moment like this So whenever people are listening whenever you go out of your way to help somebody or to love somebody or to demonstrate

The kindness and the love of God because we get to we get the opportunity to do that as as people We get a chance to be his representatives. And whenever you do that, you have no idea what you're doing to change a life. What's something that might seem insignificant to you buying a pair of shoes? If you're rich, that doesn't seem like anything. Or giving a kid a kind word that doesn't seem like much. But those things are life changing. And I always tell people most of our lives are changed in single sentences

It's a single sentence somebody said to you. You're gonna never amount to a piece of garbage You're you're this you're that a negative word or a positive word. Hey, man, you're gonna I remember when I was 17 and first starting to play drums I was only playing for like six months, but somebody that I idolized, I went to their concert and I was very bold, courageous kid, and I asked if I could sit in and play the drums for them at the soundcheck, and they let me. And I remember my hero bass player looked at me and he goes, he goes, kid, he goes, man, you're going to be one of them superstar drummers. And it was one sentence, but it was coming from somebody who I respected, it was an idol,

and I listened to that one sentence in my head a thousand times when I moved to LA and I wasn't getting gigs or auditions and I was failing. And I remembered his sentence, you're gonna be a superstar. Cause he looked like he believed it. To this day, I don't know if he ever believed it or not, but I believe that he did believe it.

Which, but so one sentence made me push through all the auditions I didn't get all the failed, uh, uh, you know, tries and attempts. So I sent a single sentence can change someone's life and that's free. You don't have to have any position or fame or platform to be kind to people. But this man, Reverend Williamson demonstrated the love of God in a real practical way that a family needed. He got us shoes and paid for us to go to the camp and would pick us up and take us to church. So probably more than just and then the Baptist Church is where I really learned about the

Bible and I learned the stories and stuff. But yeah, so ever since then, I would say I was like a Microsoft stock that kept splitting and kept, my walk with God would just continuously go to higher and higher and higher levels. And eventually, you know, I would have supernatural encounters with the Holy Spirit that would radically change me, where it would take God out of the pages of the Bible

and into the pages of my life where I realized He knew me. I always believed and knew him, but then when I realized he knew me and believed in me and was like, there would be people pray over me and they would have a prophetic gift and they didn't know me from a hole in the wall. And they would say, this is what God's done in your life. And it'd be accurate to a T. And this is the dreams in your heart. And I'd go like, I've never even told anybody those are

my dreams and this is what God's gonna do in the next 20 or 30 years and you're gonna and it was all stuff that I never shared with anybody but dead on accurate that's like that's when I realized God knows me that's cool he knows me and it may and then it's yet again another Microsoft shift it was like the stock quadrupled because I realized that it's one thing to believe in something you think is true. It's another thing when you see it proved over and over and over.

This story you're sharing about buying a pair of shoes and just letting somebody shower in your place is so simple in many ways, but it's a Christian way of loving our neighbor and caring for people. There's that side of the faith. When we met, you had told me, you're like, I've been passing out more than a carpenter books

for years before we had ever met. That's a book making the case, trying to prove that Christianity is true. Why that book in the sense of, in the world in which you live, do people have these intellectual questions and objections? What connected there and why is it important for you to not only live out your faith and love people and proclaim it, but defend it?

Well, first of all, it's important to defend it and it's important to share it. Because if I truly believe what I believe, which is the Bible, and I believe there is a heaven and there's a hell, and I believe that hell is a real place that people go to because they've chosen to reject Christ, not because they were bad because everyone's bad, everyone's a sinner, but if hell is really real and it's the eternal separation from God Himself and God represents everything that is good on this earth Is the is God incarnate all the love all the grace all the mercy all the kindness is all God And I always tell people this, you know when I'm ministering to people, you know, and I would say, you know

You know and they would because they they can't imagine that hell is real and they can't I said I said, but just, just what if it were, okay, just let's say for a minute, what if it were real? And I said, this is what it would be like if God is everything that is good. That's on this earth, but he's still here. Angels are still here. Can you imagine if he removed his presence from the earth and the only thing left is everything about earth that's horrible which is hatred, murder, bitterness, strife, envy, resentment, criticism. Everything that's evil could manifest itself fully because there's no light, there's no damn holding it back. So mankind could be pretty rotten and pretty evil to the core but we still live where God's presence is still on the earth

and angels are still all around. But can you imagine if he turned off the light for 30 seconds and now you could feel the demons unrestricted having free reign with you and all the evil things that are already in your heart now can be manifest to the full. I said that would be the scariest damn place that you could possibly imagine for and I said with no

hope ever, ever, ever, ever, ever of getting out, not even an inkling of a chance to escape it. I said, Is that worth gambling your whole eternity on? And what if all those other religions and this is the thing I tell people in a very logical way, because we live in an unlogical time where people try to create their own realities. I said, you can't have two simultaneously opposing different viewpoints be true at the same time. I can't say that I made $100,000 a year, and if I made 99 and that'd be true.

If I didn't make 100,000 and I'm telling you I made 100,000, then it's a lie. So anything that's not the If I didn't make a hundred thousand and I'm telling you I made a hundred thousand, then it's a lie. So anything that's not the truth is going to be a lie. And I said, whatever the destiny for man, like wherever man came from, like the earth and create wherever we came from and why we're here and where we're going,

whatever the mystery of that is, it's gonna be true no matter what we believe. Like whatever we believe doesn't make, believing something doesn't make it true. We could believe in anything. I could believe my friend was faithful to me, but he could have robbed me as a partner. You believe your wife is gonna be faithful to you

when you get married, but you don't know. So everything in life requires faith and everything requires belief. You can in life requires faith and everything requires belief. You can't exist without faith or belief. So if whatever is true of what happens to man when he dies is going to be true no matter what ideology you've wrapped yourself in. So the question I tell people is you must seek and ask yourself what is the truth, because resurrection and reincarnation can't both be true at the same time. There's either a God or there isn't.

There's a God who judges or he doesn't. And if it's reincarnation, then what is this cosmic force that is judging you if there's no real God? It doesn't even make any logical sense. In order for you to be judged, there would have to be somebody stronger and wiser than you to look at your life and cast your judgment

if you're gonna come back as a doorknob or a cat or whatever. I said, so just believing in something doesn't make it true. So the thing is it's a quest for the truth. And I said, if I'm wrong about my Christian faith, and based on your world perspective, you know, Hinduism and Buddhism, then being a good moral Christian, living a good life and doing good things, that I'm gonna be okay in the next life. But if you're wrong, you will be eternally separated from God,

because you won't make it in based on just, I was a good person, I did all these good things, because the Bible says, none of us are good enough, and that if you don't have the blood of Christ covering you, you will be sent to hell. I always tell people, if you have children, look in the eyes of your kid and tell me there's not a God if you love your if you love children. Do you think that just this came out of some primordial stew 50 billion years ago, and from that came an eyeball and then came eyelashes and then came thought and then came love and forgiveness and bitter. And like, these are all supernatural things

that you cannot explain. I said, you can explain the science of how a baby is born. There's a sperm and there's an egg, but you can never explain the miracle of it. You can't explain the miracle of a plant growing. Like, yes, a seed falls from a tree and you put it in the ground, you fertilize it.

But you don't't we don't understand the miracle of it we just understand the process of it if this is true then people on my watch if I don't share the gospel with them those people whether they want to hear it or not they're going to end up in hell because hell is a real place that people choose to go because they rejected the free credit card payment. They rejected what he gave them because they don't believe that they're actually sinners. And so that's when I started buying thousands of copies of your dad's book more than a carpenter, thousands of copies of every book. And then I had Lenny Kravitz, he's a believer, and then he bought me like a thousand spiral a thousand leather bound Bibles With the word let love rule printed on them

Because that was the name of his first album and that's kind of his mantra let love rule and I literally gave him out One by one and so I have always used my platform my influence to to inspire people to to share Practical wisdom and practical truth with them. But I always tell people this, they always go, how do you have so much faith? I don't have any faith. I don't understand you faith people. I'm like, look at me. I said, you have just as much faith as I do.

You cannot exist without faith for 30 seconds. Faith is embedded in us. We're created with faith. You go to work every day. In faith, you believe in two weeks they're gonna give you a paycheck, or in a month they give you a paycheck. You get married. In faith, you're gonna believe they're gonna do good by you. You walk down the street. It says walk. You walk and in faith you believe the other cars aren't gonna come when they have a red light. You get on an airplane. You don't know that it's gonna get there. In faith, you believe it's going to get up. You build friendships off. You cannot exist as a human being without faith. We operate.

Faith is in our spiritual DNA. So you have faith. The question is, what are you placing it in? And what has the keys to your heart? If you put faith in yourself, you'll soon find eventually that you'll have obstacles that you cannot overcome you put faith in yourself, you'll soon find eventually that you'll have obstacles that you cannot overcome just by faith in yourself. You'll get a diagnosis from the doctor that's not good. Faith. And so I always tell people too, because I've

been with like, I used to travel with Paul Allen, the fourth richest guy on planet earth. He was Bill Gates's partner. And so this is why, you know, I've been with the richest, most successful, most powerful people in the world. And here's what I learned at a very young age, and that's why I got more radical for following God. I see all these people with all this money, and the Elvis Presley's of the world, and all the people who commit suicide

that have seemingly everything we want. If I could be rich, if I could be good looking, if I could be famous, man, I good-looking if I could be famous man I'm gonna then I'll arrive and then I've met those people and traveled with those people and then I so many of them were empty and miserable and I go oh my god Everything that the world is chasing after and people think they have that they think they're gonna be happy Well, here's the here's the truth that God made us with an empty space in our soul that could only be filled with Him. There's not enough sex, drugs, rock and roll, power, fame

to fill that void. Because if there were, then all those people would have been the happiest people on the planet. The Julius Caesar's and all the people that self imploded. And if you live for self, you will self destruct. And if you live to serve God, you will find life. There's only two ways to live, you either live a life of self or a life of service. And all the people that I've seen live a life of self, they do so in vain because they end up empty and they're still searching and they're still looking,

like when I was with Paul Allen, he was telling me he was gonna spend $5 billion to build a ship to go to Mars, like Elon Musk or whatever. And then he went on expeditions underneath the abyss of the ocean. Like he was searching, he was a searcher, you know, looking for some kind of meaning, because we're all empty until that meaning is,

so you could spend the rest of your life reading UFO books and this and that, whatever, but you will always be empty unless the spirit of Christ is living in you. And God, God created us to have fellowship with him. And that fellowship with him is through our spirit, through our talking and connecting with him. And it's not, it's not religious. It's not like I go to church every Sunday, so I'm good.

No, it's like this communication with him where you talk with him and you argue with him and you tell him what you're angry about but you also tell him what your dreams are. It's a relationship and until you have that, people are empty and that's why when I've been around all these celebrities, I go, oh my god, these people, they're so, they're just looking, they're so sad. So that's how I know that the answer isn't there. Because everyone who doesn't have that, thinks when they have, I remember Jim Carrey posted something, because he went on a spiritual journey.

He goes, I wish everybody could be rich and famous for a while, so they can realize how empty it is. You know, but everyone thinks that it won't be for them. Like they're going to have the exempt card. Well, for me it won't, but every single one, you know, like I was a big Elvis fan But is his ex? Girlfriend said something very true. She said Elvis lived in excess whenever you live in excess of The flesh of the things of the world you will be destroyed by that excess because we're not we're not meant and we're not meant to be

Because we're not meant to be idolized and worshiped like God, and we self-implode when people idolize us. We are worshippers. Go to a concert, go to a football game, go to a soccer game. We will worship. There's no way we're not going to worship. The question is what is worthy of the worship? Certainly not yourself, and certainly not other people, and certainly not things, because none of those things ever fill the void. So that's how I got on this thing. And I'll tell you this, Sean, I've never, I've prayed for thousands of people, I've never had anybody reject me praying for them, including non believers and atheists, because in their mind, there's all they're always open to like, they'll call it something else. They'll say, you got good vibes, you got good energy,

you got good mojo. And they're always like, well, maybe there's, can't be any harm done if you praise, maybe the universal, like there's always an openness, maybe something good will come out of this. I've never had anybody not let me pray for them. And usually anybody I prayed for, by the time I'm done, they're weeping

because they're feeling the Holy Spirit and they're feeling the sincerity of my love as a fellow, that I care for them. I never condemned them. I've been with people who do all kinds of drugs and partying. I never partook of that. I've been at, I'm 62. I've been in rock and roll for over 40 years.

I've been with the Mick Jaggers of the world and everybody you can imagine, never been drunk, never been high. And I don't say that for like any moral spiritual reasons that I'm any better than anybody. But because of the way I grew up so dirt poor, I didn't wanna spend $1 on something that wasn't gonna build my life.

And that all looked destructive. And it scared me and I was like, well, why would I work so hard to save all my money and then snorted up my nose when I could help my mother buy a house or a car like to me it was all practical but I never condemned them for doing it and I was still with them while they were on the bus doing it and I just and they would offer to me I go no no I'm good man you know and they would say man what are you on because you're like so happy and high I said man I'm not on anything I said that's they would offer it to me. I go, no, no, I'm good, man. You know, and they would say, man, what are you on? Cause you're like so happy and high.

I said, man, I'm not on anything. I said, that's just Jesus living up in me. So I'm full, I'm good. And they would just be very intrigued with that. They'd be very intrigued with me going like, I've never, and then years later, some of them would call me after they lost and bottomed out and they would say,

man, you were always so even and you were always so upbeat. Like, and they would say, man, you were always so even and you were always so upbeat like and they would come to me and then receive the Lord 25 years later, 30 years later, 40 years later. But I never condemned them. I loved on them and I accepted that everyone's in a different place in their spiritual walk or their spiritual knowledge and I never acted pious or self-righteous or that I'm better than anybody because I'm not. I'm a sinner like everyone else saved by grace. But my goal is to lead as many people as possible to the Kingdom of God while I'm on this earth and influence as many people as possible and affirm and encourage everyone in the world to discover their gifts and talents, to discover God's call in their life and to live a life of purpose and meaning.

I do that through my books, through concerts, through podcasts, radio, wherever God sends me, it's the same goal. You asked me earlier before the broadcast, how have I made my identity in Christ while I've been in this business? I realized that making your identity in that other I've been in this business. Well, I realized that making your identity in that other stuff is fleeting. If I made my identity the world's greatest whatever, world's greatest Olympian, you know, gold medal winner of the swimming or whatever. Well, in 40 years when I'm no longer that able to do that, then what am I not important anymore? Because I

did that 40 years ago. You can't make your identity in what you do because what you do will change and you can't make it in your wealth because that can change. The stock market can crash like in the 20s and you have nothing. You have to make your identity in, I'm a child of the living God.

He loves me. He created me. Any good father loves their kid, whether they do good or whether they do bad. I'm positive that mothers and fathers of killers and criminals and serial killers still love their children, even though they did horrible things, wish they didn't do it. That love for them never stops. So God's love for us is the only thing we should make our identity in, is that God loves me, therefore I'm okay. Because all this other stuff, making my identity

and all that stuff that can change at a moment's notice, if you make your identity, you're a beautiful woman, you make your identity, I'm the hottest thing on earth. Well, you are when you're 30, but when you're 80, you won't be. It changes, yeah. It changes. So you gotta make your identity

in something that's eternal, not something that can be taken away from you. I'm passionate, not because, I'm passionate because this God that I'm talking about has revealed himself to me through miracles. There's been miracles in my own life, miracles and things he's done that are just clearly miracles over and over and over to where I would be an absolute fool

to deny his existence and to not boast and brag about him because of what he's done and because of his goodness to me that I Didn't deserve so my life is filled with stories of what God's done. And if I had more time Yeah, no, I hear you've got a very unique perspective that my audience is probably not used to hearing somebody express it but I want you to express it and tell your story and Obviously fascinating. Let me ask you a couple quick questions before we wrap up. Yeah. How do you navigate as a Christian if you're asked to perform, say, a song that you might

disagree with and take moral issue with? Well, for that, so far, I've really never been asked to do that. Okay. I've really never been asked to do that. And more or less, I kind of look at it like this, because it could get kind of dicey with anything, right? Sometimes I'll be speaking at a church and someone will say, hey man, if you're a Christian, you know, I'll give you a plan with Bobby Brown or whatever. And then my answer to that would be like,

sir, what do you do for a living? And they would say, oh, I'm a plumber. I would say, well, do you only fix Christian toilets? You know, do you only fix toilets of people that are walking with God, or do you just fix the toilet? And they were kind of like dumbfounded, because I said, I go wherever God sends me. Now, I have never knowingly joined a band

or worked with an artist, let's say that was a proclaimed devil worshiper. Sure. Right. Sure. Right. But I've never done that. But I've been around worldly people. But I figure, you know, if God is sending me there, then I am to be the light in that dark place. I am to be the light. I am to love on them. And I don't let I do what Jesus did. He went everywhere. He hung out with sinners.

He hang out with all the people, but he told the truth. So, for instance, you take the case of Bobby Brown, you know, I've known Bobby since. In fact, I introduced Whitney Houston herself to Bobby Brown back in 1989 at the Soul Train Awards, but Bobby's gone through a tumultuous life and all kinds at the Soul Train Awards. But Bobby's gone through a tumultuous life and all kinds of ups and downs, you know, drugs and drinking and partying, and you know, but I always loved on Bobby.

And when he was younger, I tried to steer him in the right direction, but there were too many people steering him in the wrong direction. And I was always, I was always bold. I wasn't afraid of getting fired for trying to steer somebody to the light. But anyway, I just recently saw him,

and we had just the greatest reunion. And I prayed for him like five years ago, and he was weeping because he had lost his son and his daughter and Whitney. And then when I saw him the other day, he was like, man, I've been living clean for a long time. The dressing room had nothing but waters. And this is what I'm after, the redemption of people, the restoration

of people, because God can redeem and restore anybody, including devil worshipers and people that were once playing devil music. And so I go, I am not to judge, that's the Holy Spirit's job. My job is to love and to lead them to the light and to talk rational sense to them. And then when Bobby saw me, he's like, he's remarried. He's got some young children. There was light in his eyes again. And they go, here's a guy that everybody would have just thrown to the curb

and just said, kicked him to the curb. But I was like, I'm gonna love these guys to life, whoever they are. When everyone else dumps on them and everyone else turns away from them, I'm gonna be the guy they can still call who's never gonna judge them, but always dumps on them and everyone else turns away from them I'm going to be the guy they can still call who's never going to judge them But always going to love on them and try to bring them back to the light and that's what jesus does with everybody To the to your last breath no matter if you're the most heinous killer in the world. I truly believe it

that even like those uh serial killers or even like Dictators, I truly believe that if any man or woman at the end of their life, if they give their heart to Christ and it's an earnest like, man, I was the worst person on earth and they had a sincere turning and a repentant heart, God will forgive them because that's the grace of God. That's what it's all throughout the Bible. And it's not based on, oh man, he was so horrible. I wasn't even nearly as horrible as him and I went to hell because it's not about that. It's about, did you receive his forgiveness? Did you receive the blood that covers your sin?

So to me, everyone's redeemable and everyone can be restored. And I've been doing this long enough to I've seen tons of people in Hollywood get restored and tons of people find the path because they had the privilege of seeing what the flesh and experiencing all of it to the fullest degree and finding out that it was empty. Right, like the Matthew Perry's and all those people

that didn't find that out, you know, they were searching, right? And so I go, man, I don't want that to happen. I wanna lead them to the light before they check out, you know, so the passion comes from just knowing and walking with God personally, not even that I'm a theologian Although I've read and studied hundreds and hundreds of books and hundreds of books on apologetics and stuff

I want to I want to know what I believe but here's the thing you can read the Bible and know it forward and backward But let's say you're in a plane crash and you're lost in a desert island and there's no Bibles and you're the only dude there You got to know Him you can't just know about him a desert island and there's no Bibles and you're the only dude there, you gotta know Him. You can't just know about Him. Because there's a lot of people, drummer fans of mine that met me and they thought I was one thing and when they met me they would always say, man you're so much nicer than I thought you'd be or you're cooler than I thought you would be.

Because they read everything about me, but they didn't know me. So it's one thing to read about somebody somebody it's another thing to actually know them and Jesus is calling us to know him and to walk with him which is spirit to spirit, right? And to engage with him and to talk with them and to complain to him and do he can handle it all and that's different than just Reading the Bible and knowing about this God. He wants you to know him and we're built for that relationship So you got to know him so that when you're in the trenches, man, and there's no little devotional book or whatever, and you're in a car and something's going to go down, you got to know him.

And you're created to know him. And it's a phone call away. But the phone call is from your heart. Zorz, I think about it. I am a, I'm a professor. I'm an apologist with an evangelist heart, but this might be the most evangelistic interview I've ever done.

You've got just such a preacher's heart and you shared your story and your passion for Jesus. If I was gonna sum up, just kind of listening to this, kind of what your approach is to engaging people, it seems like you've said a few things. Number one, you just want to live differently so people see that maybe you're not engaging in some of the drugs or behavior around them.

They see a light in you. You want to be in a relationship with people for a long time. You give people books, whether it's More Than a Carbiner or whatever other book, you hand books out to people. And you also just ask people, can I pray for you? Does that capture really what your heart and strategy is in the world kind of entertainment

that God's placed you in? I would say yes, more or less that's correct. I mean, the simplest thing I do, because just like you, we travel, we do whatever, all people, we encounter people, right? 24 hours a day in our lives. We encounter people So my greatest evangelistic tool is that I'm always going to encounter people at a restaurant at an airport The first thing I do is I just I'm kind to them

I'm loving to them and I'm encouraging to them. You'd be surprised I've eaten at so many restaurants where I was just really kind to the waiter and waitress, and they would say to me, wow, or I would pray for them. Or they didn't even know I'm a Christian. I would just be kind to them, but I would say something encouraging. If they were really good, I'd say, you know what?

You're not gonna stay at this place very long. They're like, what do you mean? I said, you have such a great spirit about you. You have such a great attitude. There's no way God's gonna let you stay here. You're gonna be elevated. I just wanted you to know that. So I am five dudes in the Bible.

If you really wanna know who I am, I'm an encourager like Barnabas. Encouragement is gonna come out of me 24 seven. And that leads people to want to talk to me more and know me. It's not false, it's just who I am. I'm an encourager. I'm a radically evangelist like John, I'm a musician like David, but I'm a God's man in a secular society like Daniel, and I'm a teacher like Paul, because the teaching spirit comes out of me, whatever, right?

All those five dudes, the spirit of those five guys lives in me. And at any moment, it might be the music that draws you in, it might be something I wrote in my books to draw you in but you are always gonna get the love of God coming from me Because what do people want? People want to feel the love of God. So if they if they can feel the love of God and me I've had people say that like the people I spent time with on a plane that go man You have so much light and love I said it's I said it's just God who lives in me on a planet and go, man, you have so much light and love. I said, it's just God who lives in me. So you're drawn to him, not me,

but he just, God is like an alien looking for a host. He is an alien because he's a being that we can't understand or comprehend. That's an alien. He's an alien of sorts, something other worldly that's beyond our comprehension, but he's all good. But he's looking for a host home, but as opposed to the aliens, like in the alien movie,

that just invade you without your permission. He's looking to invade you, but he only comes by permission. And if you say yes, he wants to take over you so that when people meet Zorro, they're meeting the Holy Spirit. They're meeting God through a man because that's how he set it up. He set it up so he could

live, make his host home in the hearts and spirits of men and women. I'm just one who just says, Yes, pour it on. So my greatest evangelistic tool is that love and that light like an ET, it's shining. And it's going to look different at different moments. But you're going to feel it feel it and you're gonna be drawn to it. Sometimes I'll have a chance to share Christ with them, sometimes I won't, but they're gonna have an encounter and maybe another guy or girl will come along afterwards and encounter them. It's different people coming to water you.

That makes total sense. That's how I see it. Oh, that's fascinating. Zoro, meeting you is that you're one of the more interesting people I've met in a while. You live in a world very outside of my own. You've met people I've never met. And I'm just encouraged by the way you see yourself as an ambassador.

And you have such clarity on who you are and who God has called you to be. And that's very different than who I am and who God has called me to be. And that's very different than who I am and who God has called me to be and that's okay. God said over and over again, God has called us uniquely to be the person that he has wired us to be. We have unique experiences, but we're all called as ambassadors for Christ to love people. So I love that. I'm gonna remember the story about that pastor who just bought a pair of shoes for you. Yeah. And just you know showering in our home.

I mean what a simple, simple thing to do. All of us can do that. All of us can talk to people spiritually. And just the fact that you said you want to encourage, you don't want to force stuff on anybody. But if they're open, I'm gonna pray for them. I'm gonna talk about Jesus. Great stuff.

I appreciate you sharing about your book Maria Scarf. You told me we met in person. It's not an evangelistic book. No, it's just a story. It's filled with just your love for Jesus and naturally comes through like this interview. You probably can't talk for 20 minutes about your life without just your passion for Jesus coming out because that's who you are. And the book has that as well. So, Zora, I hope this is just the beginning of conversations

that you and I can have, not even online, just offline and hang out and connect. Thanks for coming on. I'll be a Barnabas and encourage you as well. Appreciate your boldness and looking forward to connect again. Thanks for joining us. Don, thank you so much for having me, man. It's been an honor and a privilege and a joy.

I'm super proud of what you're doing. You know, when I met you, I liked you right away. And when I saw you speak and all the stuff, I was like, this dude is on his game. He's a great teacher. He's a great educator. And it was all stuff that I love, you know, all the stuff you had on the screen.

And I thought, this dude. And at that time, that stuff that I love, you know, all the stuff you had on the screen. And I thought, this dude. And at that time, that's when I realized, I thought, I wonder if he's related to your dad. Like, you asked me that. Yeah. And I was like, because in the dressing room, I didn't know. I was just like, well, it's got the same last name. It's interesting.

But anyway, it's been a joy, man. I love doing stuff like this. Thanks for I know I can you asked me one question, I could talk for 30 minutes because there's so much in me. Thanks for being a great interviewer that you allowed me to just, what came out of my heart just came out naturally, but you're great at what you do. And so thank you for what you're doing and all the people you're touching. And I speak blessing to everyone watching in the name of Jesus, that everyone watching would get touched by the Holy Spirit and that your life would be better and that God would help you and you would find hope in your heart and you would find your purpose.

And I speak love and blessing over everyone. I love it. Amen. And those of you who are like, how can I take a next step? We would love to have you come study apologetics and theology with me at Biola, at Talbot School of Theology. We've got an online program in person. We want to train you to have a confidence

to defend the faith and engage people as ambassadors. Information below, make sure you hit subscribe. We've got some other apologetic interviews coming up on angels. What's the evidence for angels? We're gonna cover near death experiences again, evidence for the Bible, the resurrection, and we'll have some other stories like this as well.

Make sure you hit subscribe. Thanks, Zorah. Thank you, Sean. God bless, man.