The Sean McDowell Show - Famous Influencers Are Sharing Their Spiritual Visions...Here’s Why

Episode Date: February 17, 2026

In this episode, we explore modern-day visionary experiences like near-death experiences (NDEs), deathbed visions, and striking dreams. Many assume the supernatural “only happened back then,” but we examine reports from respected scholars, public figures, and historical voices to challenge the claim that miracle testimony comes only from the “ignorant and barbarous.” Dr. Steve Miller joins the conversation to share research-driven insights on why testimonies from credible people still matter and how NDEs and deathbed experiences commonly reshape priorities (especially around love and relationships) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [smdcertdisc] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org   Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

Most marriages aren't falling apart. They're being refined. Tried and True is a scripture-based marriage guide for couples who want a resilient, faith-filled marriage, especially in seasons that feel ordinary, difficult, or stretched. Through 12 and perfect biblical marriages, this book shows how God uses trials to strengthen connection, not destroy it. Learn more at tridentruemarriagebook.com or find Tried and True everywhere books are sold. Life Audio. Tell us what happened with Jeremy Renner. He was crushed by a snowplow. He was close to dead. He reported exiting his body, experiencing, quote, magnificent, exhilarating peace. As he explained, quote, I invest into love and my shared relationships that I experience love with, because that is the only thing that you take with you. Since the Bible says love is from God, I think it's a reasonable assumption. to say this might have been an experience that came from God. For many of us, we don't see or hear these things on a day-to-day basis, and so we assume they're not happening. Some of the most

prominent and influential people in modern times report the kinds of visions we see in the Bible. Highly respected scholars such as Mortimer Adler, famous actors Jeremy Renner and Mark Ruffalo, and deeply influential authors Harriet Beecher Stowe give testimonies of visionary experiences. What do these mean? What do we make of them? And should we accept these accounts or dismiss them? Dr. Steve Miller, a leading scholar on near-death experiences, deathbed experiences, and other visionary type experiences, who is, I think, my top guest ever on the show in terms of appearances, is back to discuss these accounts. Good to see you, Dr. Miller. It's great to be back. Thank you. Yeah, I'm so excited about this topic. Let's jump right in.

You've written, or at least writing your fourth book on this, so you have delved into these kind of accounts for years on a scholarly level. Why should we examine the testimonies of respected and prominent modern people who report visions? Sure. Well, my earlier research was mostly dealing with the best studies of such experiences so that we could have a large quantity to look at. But it's very important to look at the individual experiences and delve into the people themselves that are clobed. me to have spiritual experiences. And I'll go back to 1700s Enlightenment Europe, where the skeptical philosopher David Hume argued in an extraordinarily influential chapter of one of his books.

It's in this book called Of Miracles. And I'll just quote from him. In fact, my students read this, I have 40 students who read this article last week and are commenting. I always have in my classes because it was so important. influential. But here's what Hume said about miracles and any type of spiritual experiences. Quote, it forms a strong presumption against all supernatural and miraculous, miraculous relations that they are observed chiefly to abound among ignorant and barbarous nations, end quote.

But then he expresses himself even more boldly. It's not just chiefly there, but he says, or if a civilized people has ever given admission to any of them, any of these miracles, that people will be found to have received them from ignorant and barbarous ancestors, end quote. Then he emphasized in his last sentence, he actually puts it in italics. It is strange that such prodigious events never happen in our days. Now, he was speaking the 1700s. But many people today are thinking the same way.

Some of my students read him, and I'll say, Well, that's true. They may have happened back in biblical times, but they don't happen today. And although Hume never offered any documentation to that, he just said it. For many of us, we don't see or hear these things on a day-to-day basis, and so we assume they're not happening. So it's important, especially today, because in Hume's writings and secular movements, such as logical positivism and philosophy or naturalistic, reductive materialism and science. A lot of people, I think, just stopped talking about this entirely in the 1900s. Even in the church, we're just kind of embarrassed by the supernatural, wouldn't mention

contemporary visions from the pulpit or in our conversations. So basically, we're putting Hume to the test here in saying, are there intelligent people in America, one of the most advanced scientifically? our PhD programs or the envy of the world, are people still talking about these things today, respectable people. So that's why we want to get into this. Steve, just yesterday I interviewed a scholar to Muslims. And his family came to faith because his father was tormented by a demon in a country in the Middle East, could not get rid of it until he proclaimed the name of Jesus and it transformed him. and I only interviewed him. I had him in my class at Biola and he looked at the students. He said,

how many of you really believe these kind of supernatural experiences happen? Now, they do, but his point was, outside of the church, we dismiss miracles. Hume has a specter that still is influencing academia or anything that smacks of the supernatural, but even within the church, we're often quick to dismiss these kinds of accounts. So that's, That's why we want to discuss it to simply say, what is happening today? Are there really visionary near-death experiences, other seemingly supernatural phenomena happening, and what do we make of them? Now, before we jump in, oh yeah, go ahead. Let me just throw this in there. I should mention that one response to hum is to look at well done studies during our time of people, where they interview thousands of people or hundreds at least. And they found that one in four Americans report hearing a voice or seeing a vision in response to prayer. That's one out of four. Forty-three percent, that's almost half of Americans report an inexplicable, inexplicable spiritual experience in which they meet God.

Over half report being protected by an angel. Over 80 percent will experience a deathbed vision if some recent research is correct. So this is happening broadly, but we want to actually dig into a few of the actual experiences to see what we can learn from them. We live in this spiritual moment where spiritual things are coming back in, that 80% stat, you and I did a show on this a number a month ago, that was in an article in the New York Times, a secular publication. So the conversation is shifting here. Now, I know some people might be thinking, okay, Steve, you probably have a Pentecostal or charismatic background. So maybe you're promoting a deeper spiritual life where people have regular visionary experiences with God. Is that where you're coming from?

Well, I think that's what C.S. Lewis and mere Christianity would call red herrings that kind of distract us from this issue. Actually, I am not a part of any of those movements. I'm not necessarily against them. I'm not charismatic or Pentecostal. And these people we're going to talk about are not people who are seeking a deeper life through meditation and fasting and all these things to lead up to these. It's typically one-off visions that happen in a person's life that's just distinct from anything they've ever found. And they may come from all kinds of theological or philosophical backgrounds. As we said in our last interview, many atheists report these. So I think it's important to say that even cessationists today, those who believe that all miracles cease, don't really say all miracles.

Most of them would say, what we're trying to say is there's no good. gift of healing today or there's no that having a vision doesn't bestow upon you some type of apostolic authority and that's what they're trying to get away from rather than saying that visions don't happen i don't see any biblical evidence that they should have stopped all right we're going to look at some super interesting accounts but just one more question why do you think many christians and others are just so quick to dismiss modern day visionary type accounts well i think it goes back as i I mentioned to some of these movements of logical positivism, reductive materialism, so that we started thinking as a culture that as science was continuing to explain things, that everything would be

explained on a naturalistic basis. So we know a lot about psychology today. And so some people would say, oh, well, there's a psychological explanation. And because of that, we hesitate to tell anybody about it. We don't come to church and start telling everyone about our vision. They may think we're crazy. They may think we have some psychological problem. And so we just don't talk about it. I think that's one of the main things. And then theologically, theological liberalism started just moving away from any talk of the miraculous so that you weren't hearing it in church as much. And even conservatives just weren't talking about it. I think we just kind of assumed that since people didn't talk about it, that it was happening where I think we're dead wrong. Now that we're doing surveys, we find out that this is a

very common experience. I love it. One of the reasons it's always been compelling to me to accept a lot of these accounts is it's not people trying to write books to get famous or make money. Many people are very reluctant to share these stories, which seems to give a certain kind of credibility to it. And they're not looking for visionary, supernatural, near-death type experiences. It's like their lives are interrupted with this. All right, we've got some fascinating characters here. And you know I've done some videos like the top five verified near-death experiences where we go into some depth. Here we're going to look at a few more accounts.

We probably won't go into the depth. What we want people to see is the breadth and just the variety of the kinds of names. Many people recognize surprisingly reporting near-death experiences. Now, Mortimer Adler, I know who he is, hugely influential intellectual. maybe introduce who he is in case some people don't recognize who he is and what happened to him. Sure. This is a fellow who taught at Columbia University, taught law at University of Chicago, and I'm going to stick kind of close to my notes. I usually like to visually keep in touch with my audience, but I really want to get the accuracy right on these guys and I've got the books here with me.

So taught law at University of Chicago philosophy of laws, what he taught. He chaired in Baclopedia Britannica's board of editors for decades. It was known with Encyclopedia Britannica as a philosopher at large. He wrote over 50 books. And so this was an incredibly literate person that somebody like David Hume, this guy far exceeded Hume and what evidence we have of the study that they had done of literature in general. Nobody could accuse him of being ignorant and barbarous. He was a towering intellect.

and he wrote at the age of, I believe, 75 a autobiography. And then something weird happened. He lived for 15 more years. And during that time, his life radically changed. This is from his book, a second look in the rear view mirror. And by the way, these are things I'm giving you the documentation so you can look them up and get on your back text and just light up your theological and philosophical pipe and smoke on it for a while. have to think about these. So he didn't believe when he wrote his first autobiography in a personal God. And so he never really committed himself in any way spiritually or prayed or anything like

that. But after a pastor visited and prayed for him, this is on in this book, page 276, after a pastor visited and prayed for him, he choked up and began to uncontrollably weep, repeating the Lord's prayer over and over for days on end. For the first time in his life, he actually meant the words. And he says, quote, quite suddenly, when I was awake one night, a light dawned on me, and I realized what had happened without recognizing it clearly when it first happened. I had been seriously praying to God, end quote. Yet prior to this, he would have said confidently that any philosopher who understood God as a philosopher

would never worship him or pray to him. He believed in an impersonal God. But suddenly, not because of some argument that came to mind, but because of this undeniable experience, he changed. He said, he believed in a God, quote, on whose grace and love I now joyfully rely, end quote. So what am I make of an experience like this? I mean, here's a guy who his entire life was devoted to studying great books,

great philosophers, writing, reflecting a philosopher at large. He had also had a degree in psychology. So surely he sat back and thought, okay, what psychological reasons could explain this experience I had? But when all said and done, he interpreted himself as being a passive and experiencer of something that impacted him from the other side, which transformed him instantly from being a skeptic to a believer. So he subsequently joined a church, began writing on things. theological themes, a remarkable testimony. That's really incredible. I actually would commend to our audience. His book is one of my all-time favorites. The title is How to Read a Book. It changed the way I

read poetry versus history versus law versus theology. Brilliant scholar at 75. Has this visionary, seemingly supernatural experience somewhat unexpected. I love that. Now let's move to a more modern-day scholar. Those who study resurrection or have followed this channel, recognize the name of Dale Allison, who in some ways has been one of the most vocal and smart critics of the resurrection. And although I believe he still rejects the bodily resurrection of Jesus, he believes there are some kind of visionary experience the apostles had, but he personally reports some really fascinating encounters with the supernatural. Who was he giving? us more context and what happened? Sure. He's a respected writer, scholar, distinguished professor of

New Testament at Princeton, and why did he end up there? Well, he credits his own visionary experience as a 16-year-old, which reset the whole course of his life. So I'm quoting from encountering mystery by Dale Allison, and he puts it out there right out front, pages one to three, because he says, you can't understand my life unless you understand this vision at the age of But he said, my meeting with the Mysterium fascinosum, which is Latin for like the fascinating, alluring aspect of God, I believe Rudolph Otto spoke of it in that way. He said, my meeting with him in 1972 was not a parenthetical moment, but rather the existential center of my entire life. Ultimately, then, I'm a professor at a seminary, not so much because I have the requisite credentials, but because the stars came down one night when I, I was 16 years old, end quote.

I don't know if I could put it in stronger words. This vision changed this brilliant person's life. He had a lifetime of teaching and study to think about it, and he thought it was something real. Marriage was never meant to be effortless, but it was meant to endure. Tried and true is a scripture-centered marriage guide for couples who want a marriage shaped by faith, not perfection. I'm Dana Shea, the author. In this book, I explore 12 imperfect biblical marriages,

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He reports at least one or two more in that book and comes to a lot of the same conclusions that you and I do about angelic visitations, about near-death experiences. We would differ with him when it's all said and done about the bodily resurrection of Jesus, but he could, clearly had what he reports as multiple visionary type experiences that couldn't be put in this secular box, which is explained entirely away by science. Before we get to certain actors like Mark Rofalo and Jeremy Rennar, which fascinating account, Steve, I was aware of Jeremy Rennar, but did not know that Mark, of course, who plays The Hulk, had an experience. So I can't wait for your thoughts on that. But one more scholar, and in part just to establish, these are not just popular figures, but very careful thinkers reporting these experiences.

So Dr. Hugh Montefiore, who served as a fellow and dean at Cambridge University where he taught. He did some work at Oxford University. Tell us a little bit more about who he is and what he experienced. Sure. He was an honorary fellow at Oxford. I mean, he made it as far as you could make it in academia as far as his scholarship. But again, just like Dale Allison, he traces it back to a vision he had. So it is the book, I checked out of the library, so I can't show it to you, but it's, oh, God, what next? That was an autobiography of his pages one and two.

Again, starts it off with this vision he had. So interestingly, he grew up Jewish, Jewish family, Jewish relatives. He never attended a Christian church or read the New Testament until his vision at, again, age 16, magical number there. 16-year-olds, watch out. Who knows? And he said, in his vision, quote, knowing it to be Jesus, end quote. These things are self-authenticating. Kind of like, you know, I know that I'm here talking to you right now. And it's more real than a dream that I had last night. And so the degree of reality convinces me that this is reality. Often in these visions and near-death and deathbed experiences, they'll say it was as real as us, sitting here or it's even realer than that reality. And I think that's why it's self-authenticating. They can't deny that this happened so it revolutionizes their lives. So Jesus told him to follow me, quote, follow me. Without abandoning his Jewish heritage, he embraced the Christian faith. It is interview with Professor Philip Weeby 57 years later. He described his degree of certainty.

he said, quote, for me, it has total reality, end quote. So he talked about his indescribably rich event that filled me afterwards with overpowering joy. I could do no other than to follow those instructions. I found that I'd become a Christian as a result of a totally unexpected and most unusual spiritual experience. I was aware of the living Christ and became, because of that, I was aware of God in a new way. And he says, quote, it is still vivid in my memory. memory nearly 60 years later. And I have to begin this book by writing about it because otherwise, the rest of it would make no sense. It shaped the whole future of my life. Wow, coming from such a

great scholar who was a Jew who's not expecting this. Wow. Yeah, it's not only that he wasn't expecting it, it's even stronger than that. This would be what he strongly would not expect. It goes again, what he was believing. That's what's so startling about this. The point you made I want to highlight is I haven't had a near death experience or this kind of dramatic visionary experience. I've had a few encounters that I felt like there were supernatural elements present, which is story for another time. But so many of these accounts, people say it was more real in terms of my experience and the colors and my memories. It doesn't match up with the dream. It was qualitatively different. And the number of accounts is in part what stands out to me about this. Now, we're going to look at some accounts from a Christian scholar, Dallas Willard. We're going to go to some Marvel Cinematic Universe actors and others. But I do want to stop. I'm really curious, Steve, what do you think these kinds of visions demonstrate evidentially,

apart from somebody's subjective experience? What do they help demonstrate in your mind? Well, number one, I'm getting this from their body. These are eyewitness accounts, right? And they have some of the elements that lawyers in a court of law would take seriously. When somebody is absolutely sure that they saw this person who committed the murder instead of just, I think it was them or whatever, there's this absolute degree of certainty. They're respected academics, which Weeby, Professor Weeby points out, he says, you know, in academia it's not really popular to talk about these kind of things.

I mean, think about the one we just talked about, how he actually had a lot to lose. I mean, this wasn't going to help him get a position at Cambridge University, and it certainly, he feared what might happen to his

family. They might all turn on him for accepting Jesus. So when you've got a lot to lose in sharing your testimony, that also makes the testimony that much more powerful. And I just say the other thing is that we're giving the individual examples, but when you study the best studies of such experiences,

you find that the corroborating evidence of the timing, like when someone just knows of the death of the person from a far distance, and they got this vision within 24 hours of when it actually happened, and they weren't expecting it, that when Cambridge scholars studied this, that happened 440 times as often as you would expect if it were just a chance occurrence. So there's a lot of reasons to think this is not a hallucination. It's not a normal dream.

And these guys were smart enough to sit down and think it through and realize, no. No, I've got to change my life in the light of this vision because if I deny that, why do I even believe that I'm really here on earth doing these things? It was just that powerful. One point I have to emphasize is you started by reading Hume from Of Miracles, which still shapes the way many people think, and it's used to reject the supernatural, in particular, the resurrection. And one of his arguments that you just read was that these kinds of miracle claims are by barbarous people uneducated. So in other words, we can dismiss their accounts. So minimally, minimally what this shows is that visions are at least a part of the modern day experience that people report.

And Hume's argument does not work. These are not barbarous people. They are educated, trained people reporting these experiences. So I think it definitively defeats at least that point that Hume made. Now, let's keep going. I want to talk about a Christian scholar, Dallas Willis. By the way, he mentored J.P. Morlin, who is one of my, who's done a lot of work on near-death experiences. He reported your, he endorsed your book. He faltered into my office yesterday. We chatted for five years.

One of my heroes, but one of the people he would point towards is Dallas Willard, who's probably been one of the most influential Christian writers and thinkers over the past, maybe three decades or so. So who was he? And what experience did he report? Sure. He was teaching near you for decades. He was teaching at the University of Southern California for really almost 50 years. He taught philosophy there. So very well respected. In the end, he was serving as director of the School of Philosophy there, published over 75 articles and technical journals, and wrote many books. Very influential, very well, but not just influential as an intellectual. He was respected within his own department, among the Christians that he associated with. This was just a first class person and scholar. But a day before his death, and I'm, this is quoting from Gary Moon's account,

becoming Dallas Willard about Dallas Willard's life. And it's on page 239. If you want to research these things, take well-known people's biography, and flipped to the end and see what happened at their death or look in the index and look for vision. You'll be shocked at how many people you find. But a day before his death, his friend Gary Black was there, who was at the bedside, Willard's breathing became faint and Black felt his arm for a pulse. At his touch, Willard looked up and said, quote, I need to tell you what is happening so you can be prepared, end quote.

Perfectly lucid, right? He's not on drugs or something. He's not, you know, like people put them on morphine really heavily. He was lucid. Black reports, quote, he started by saying he was in a hallway in between this life and the next. He said that for his entire ministry, he really couldn't quite understand what to believe about the Bible's description of the great cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12. He tried to understand and believe in this reality during his life.

He wanted to believe it, but he didn't quite know. know what to make of it. But now, Dallas said, now I do. I really do believe. I know they are here. So he was experiencing two worlds at once, which is the quality of deathbed experiences, as people have studied them in a New York hospice, where people are seeing angels. Over 80% of them, if you interview them dying people on a daily basis, they'll start telling you about these experiences with that many, it's almost intrinsic to dying. So he was experiencing what is commonly experienced at death, a deathbed vision, and coming from such an intelligent, respected, and trusted person who studied all of his life, studied philosophy, he understood secular philosophy,

he understood religious philosophy, and he was a trustworthy person. Why on your deathbed would you say, oh, I'm going to make up something? I mean, you're trying to be at your best. you're about to meet God in his eyes, you're not going to make something up, and he was sure it was happening. It gave him a certainty. That's unbelievable. Of course, maybe we could come back and circle around it this another time. But what naturalists are going to have to do is give some naturalistic explanation. It's the brain playing tricks on him.

There's some physical, chemical process trying to calm him when he dies. I mean, we're not responding to all the natural, you know, rejoiners. We've done that in other interviews and my earlier books. Yeah. So I just want to concede that we're not responding to those now. What we're talking about is the breadth and the depth

and the quality of these accounts that are reported. Now these next two I've been kind of waiting for, I had heard of Jeremy Renner's account with the near death experience, which was not long ago. I had no idea Mark Rufelo or Ruffalo. I'm actually not sure how to say it. And of course,

Jeremy Renner plays Hawkeye in the event. Avengers, Mark Ruffalo plays the Hulk. So this is near and dear to my heart. I don't believe either of them are followers of Jesus. So we're talking about a different kind of visionary experience than Dallas Willard has. But let's take them one by one. Let's start with Mark Ruffalo. What happened? Sure. And basically, a lot of people have, I don't know where these people stand with Christ. Actually, I haven't researched their life a lot. Even if I had, sometimes we don't know their pride. thoughts or their private convictions. But I think a misunderstanding in a lot of religious people's minds is that visions should come at the end of a long spiritual experience where you've just gotten so close to God that you can just experience him in this way. But actually, if you read through the Bible, visions are pretty indiscriminate on whom they come to. You know, they'll come to people that are fighting against God or secular kings in the Old Testament. Sometimes it's a warning. Sometimes, I mean,

he wasn't Paul when he had the vision. He was Saul. He was out to kill Christians. He was fighting against God, and he gets a vision, right? So this is evidence that God so loved the world, not just a bunch of believers, not just a bunch of really spiritual people who are meditating, and he reveals himself to them. So I think this is just a good example. Wherever they stand and wherever they go with their lives, that's their choice. But I think it makes seekers out of people. So, Ruffalo actually, and I don't know how to pronounce some of these names as well. I don't hear them on the radio. I just read about them, okay?

But he was born in my wife's hometown of Kenosha, Wisconsin, actually. He's a multi-talented director, writer, played diverse roles from the, so diverse is from the Hulk to romantic comedies, okay? Right. This guy's a great actor. I have a ton of respect for great actors, but also a writer, director. So he's a respectable person. and also an entrepreneur in that he co-founded a theatrical group. But just a couple of years ago, January 2024,

I don't have a book on this, but you could Google it. 2024 CNN reported Mike Ruffalo or Rufelo, and just search dream or something with that, and it will come up. So this article reported on his seeming vision, which alerted him to a golf ball-sized tumor on his brain. So he was in the midst of finishing a film with Robert Redford when he had a vivid dream. Now, some skeptics will surely say, oh, wait a minute, you have thousands of dreams. So one of them's inevitably going to correspond with reality, and you're going to think that's a miracle.

But in this case, he distinguishes it from the first from any of his other dreams. This is a one-to-one correspondence, not one out of 30,000 dreams or something. Gotcha. So he said, he said, quote, it wasn't like any other dream I've ever had, end quote. It was just like you have a brain tumor. It wasn't even a voice, Ruffalo recalled. It was just pure knowledge. You have a brain tumor and you have to deal with it immediately. And this was not a dream. This was something different, something unique that he had never experienced. So what does he do? He goes to the doctor. He had no symptoms. of a brain tumor like great headaches or whatever, he insisted to the doctor.

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Search for King James Bible study, KJV, and download the app today. The doctor saw no reason to do it. He insisted, I need an x-ray. The doctor was so stunned to find a large tumor. Unfortunately, the surgery took care of it, although he had partial face paralysis for a year and was left to this day, as I understand, with one deaf ear. So this was a powerful...

So in a court of law, it's not just that someone gives a testimony, but if you have some type of corroboration, like, oh, you got information beforehand on what was going to happen. And it happened, that's a corroboration that gives us some evidence that, wow, this must have come from somewhere other than his brain because you don't just make up things like this. Yeah, I think that, oh, sorry. Yeah, what's best to say about this is that it can be evidentially checked. Now, of course, you know, somebody could say, well, maybe this is a defense mechanism of the brain alerting, you know, the mind that he's got this tumor. But then I still pause to go, that feels purposeful. It feels like there's a goal and an end which feels like a mind would do this. And so however you look at it, there seems to be intention behind this alerting him of this phenomena.

Now, I'm guessing some people listening right now on my channel might think, well, Mark, has said this politically, he's on the left, that is completely irrelevant to the conversation we're having right now. God loves the world. God loves this. Exactly. If anything, it shows that God's common grace, and in this case, seemingly supernatural grace, is given us more time to repent and more time to follow him. He loves all of us. Absolutely fascinating account. I wasn't even aware of that. I'm so glad you tracked it down. Mark, if you're hearing this, anybody chance you'd be up. for a conversation. Thanks for sharing it.

I would love to talk and hear more about your account would be phenomenal. Okay, let's shift to another Avenger, not as strong as the Hulk, but more accurate. Hawkeye. Tell us what happened with Jeremy Renner. Sure. He's currently playing on the mayor of Kingston series. He was reported just last year. Both of these are current.

This is 2025. If you want to search Jeremy. Me renter in Google, CNN 2025 near-death experience, you ought to be able to pull that up. Reported CNN, it sounds like a classic near-death experience. And so I've studied these. These are common. It's not just like a one-off thing that this guy's reporting it. He reported exiting.

What happened is he was crushed by a snowplow. And he, during this time, he was close to dead. his reported he reported exiting his body experiencing quote magnificent exhilarating peace this was not a normal oh maybe i'll be okay it was exhilarating it was magnificent it was something fantastic he didn't want to return to his body and was quite upset to find himself back in his body i think he said something like when he saw his body and he was going back into it he said this is going to hurt. He said, but the self-authenticating nature of the NDE was shown, I think, by its impact on

his life. Now, generally in visions, we're not getting a bunch of theology. We're just getting some general, just like the Apostle Paul, he didn't get the gospel in his vision, but I think God doesn't want to bypass our seeking. And some of these people may search for years. hopefully because they realize this is important. But the self-authenticating nature, I think, is in the impact on his life. As he explained, quote, I invest into love and my shared relationships that I experience love with

because that is the only thing that you take with you, end quote. All of a sudden, I mean, this reinforces what Jesus said when he was asked, what's the most important commandment? I mean, if you miss out on everything else, don't. miss out on love. Jesus said, love God, love people. That's the most important commandment. And since the Bible says love is from God, I think it's a reasonable assumption to say this might have been an experience that came from God. I don't see any point in the devil given somebody a vision and their whole outcome is to be a more loving person. So I think,

again, to say this is the number one priority in life, many people, I mean, you look at the Olympics, some of these people, I mean, they're just infatuated with the idea of being number one and being successful. I mean, some have great motives, I'm sure, of serving the people that have helped them so far and all. But there are many motives we can have. There are many priorities that people have to get ahead, to make more money, to succeed in school and all this, he comes back and says, it's love. It's about love. I think that's a profound reality that's counterculture in a lot of ways among a lot of people, but that was his outcome. It's really remarkable that while his body is crushed and there's trauma going on, that he feels peace. That's so counterintuitive and suggests

Yes, we are more than just our bodies, but he's seeing his body. This is a kind of argument for the soul for consciousness apart from the body. So minimally, these accounts are challenging naturalism. But I think you're right. If it's about love and loving people, which is a common phenomena that near-death experiencers will report, it does raise the next question. What is it about love that's so meaningful? where does love come from? Why should I love somebody? And of course, that's where we think the honest

seeker is going to be led to the person of Jesus. All right. And often these people are having life reviews to where they say, oh my goodness, and they've seen deceased relatives, which, which not in his case necessarily. I don't know if he saw deceased relatives or not. But you see, this is common in near-death experiences. So people imply from that that, that number one, is an afterlife. Number two, my life matters, and I will be judged for these things. As Jesus said, everybody will appear before the judgment seat of Christ. So this next one takes us back a few years, and is one I was not aware of, one of the most influential, certainly American authors of all time, Harriet Beecher Stowe, who wrote Uncle Tom's Cabin. What does she report in terms of a vision?

Well, first, I think I'd like a thank you for a detour into the Marvel universe. I know you were dying to get there. So just a little thanks before we move on. Oh, man, I love it. You can give me a hard time any time. You are welcome. That's fun. So, okay, let's get into Uncle Tom's cabin.

Harriet Beecher Stowe wrote many books. A bright person was a school teacher. and so you've probably all read about her in high school and college and your history texts and civil rights movements and all these things. In fact, her book sold so many copies and was so influential prior to the Civil War that when Abraham Lincoln met her personally, he said, quote, so you're the little woman who wrote the book that made this big war, end quote. And to this day, people cite her book as one of the motivators for the Civil War. But what you probably don't know about her book is that there's a climactic scene where a slave is flogged to death. And that is kind of the most significant heart-rending parts of the book.

And she said, where did her idea come from? She said the climactic scene in the book came to her in a powerful, vivid vision while she was taking communion at a college chapel. Quote, for the rest of her life, and I'm quoting from more than conquerors. This is, I studied, Woodbridge was teaching at Trinity when I was there. He's a very respected scholar. He edited this work. He talks about Harriet Beecher Stowe here. For the rest of her life, she was convinced.

that the Almighty had reached out to her, that the inspiration had been gods, not her own. So she hurried home to write it down, read her description of the vision to her children, and they all wept together. So here's a classic, something that's really impacted our culture, a person who's very well respected, and she's saying, no, I didn't just get an ideal while I was sitting at church. This was a vivid vision that I couldn't deny. I'm an author, and so sometimes I have these ideas that pop into my mind, but I wouldn't describe it that way.

That goes beyond in kind of a supernatural kind of experience. And I would say given the influence of her book, I would certainly interpret that one. And I'm reading into this, of course, as a message from God to help end the evils of slavery. But just to know what lurks behind that, I think is really, really powerful. And by the way, you've done a service here. I don't know if anybody else has done this, getting all these biographies skipping to the end, finding these stories of people. It's just fascinating to see them strung together.

So let's skip to a respected scientist. Dr. Michael, I'm probably going to put your name, Gwielin, Gulen, he's from Harvard. He was a physics professor. What account does he report? Sure. He's got degrees in physics, math, and astronomy from, Cornell and UCLA, he rejected atheism along the line and embraced Christianity really due to his long quest for truth and looking into the relevant evidence. But later, he started to entertain some

spiritual doubts because he and his wife couldn't have a child. And they had prayed about it, prayed about it. And you know how we get about things like that. It's like God didn't answer to prayer. Is he really there? Does he really love me? And he's going through those doubts. And so in his book believing is seeing starting on page 184 he writes but on that late fall afternoon in england my worldview exploded now again these are dramatic expressions by people who are scientific who are scholarly who are used to putting things in very uh low-key ways okay my worldview exploded quote and it has never shrunk back to what it once was as i fell into bed I suddenly beheld the image of a large, translucent human figure.

His giant arms caught and embraced me. I felt, see, in italics, the word felt. I felt the embrace. In other words, this was something empirical, right? In other words, what I experienced was both visual and tactile. A split second later as my head was about to hit the pillow, this is the part of the experience that affected me the most. I came cheek to cheek with the human-like figure.

I felt it. It was warm and soft, the unexpected, electrifying sensation, the abrupt and seismic spiritual awareness. Words really fail me here. Whatever it was that happened to be at that moment is indescribable, end quote. And almost immediately the thoughts, people, and circumstances in my life underwent a sea of change. One of his changes was this. a later moment he and his wife Laurel suddenly knew they should adopt a child and they indeed adopted a four-year-old boy and raised him into adulthood. But this is a scientist,

experiencing something that in near-death experience is one of the main characteristics is ineffability. You just can't fully put it into words. So it's not like a normal dream that you can tell people, almost exactly what you experienced in the dream, it's something that seemed to come from somewhere else because you can't even explain it outside of the vision. And this is a scientist who spent his whole life sifting hearsay and unevanced things from evidenced things. And it changed his life. I also want to highlight, if you're a scientist and you're teaching or trained at places like Harvard and UCLA and these leading universities, these are just, couched in a naturalistic framework.

So again, it's just so the opposite of what you would expect, given his training and way of seeing the world, that maybe lend some credibility to it. So, all right, let's keep going. We're looking at just kind of the variety of these kind of experiences. And I want people to get the whole kind of big picture here. Let's jump down to a scholar named Jay Gresham-Machin. and for those who are in kind of New Testament studies or church history, you'll recognize him as a brilliant thinker, written some fascinating books in the early 20th century critiquing a kind of liberal Christianity and some other works that he wrote.

But tell us what happened with him personally. Sure. I think it's good to bring a reformed Calvinistic person into it because we tend to respect people that are coming from. from our theological perspective. And some think that, oh, well, reform people wouldn't have experience. Want to keep God's word with you wherever you go? The King James Bible Study, KJV app by Salem Media makes it easy to read, study, share, and pray daily with the timeless KJV translation. Enjoy features like offline access, audio Bible listening, smart search,

and tools to highlight bookmark and take notes, all designed to keep your Bible studies simple and organized. Best of all, it's free to download in the Google Play Store. Grow in your faith every day. Search for King James Bible Study, KJB, and download the app today. ...areances like that or whatever. But they do. I think it's actually pronounced Macon.

I have actually heard that one in the past. I probably just called M-A-C-H-E-N. So he was Princeton Professor of New Testament, founder of Westminster Seminary, and he reported a vision of heaven the day before his death. These are some deathbed experiences. He said, quote, it was glorious. It was glorious. So he had a vision of heaven.

Again, deathbed experiences. We see them everywhere. This is from Stonehouse's biography of Macon, pages 507, 508. And then we could go to C.S. Lewis. Yeah, let's do it. I want to cover him. So he was the influential literary giant and Christian apologist who taught English literature at both Oxford and Cambridge. He was in a nursing home in his final months.

recovering he was in a coma he had had a heart attack and then he revives and he becomes very lucid so quote and this is from downing's book uh biography called the most reluctant convent pages 27 and 28 suddenly he pulled himself up and stared intently across the room hooper saw nothing but felt that jack he c s lewis was called jack by his friends must have seen something or someone quote, very great and beautiful, end quote, near at hand. For there was a rapturous expression on his face, unlike anything Hooper had seen before. Jack kept on looking and repeated to himself several times, quote, oh, I never imagined.

I never imagined. End quote. The joyous expression remained on his features as he fell back onto his pillows. Wow. Now, C.S. Lewis had an imagination. He did. That's a fact. But if he says, this is something more fabulous than Narnia or anything else I ever imagined. Oh, my goodness. I think that's quite powerful. Oxford, Cambridge, I mean, even if people reject his worldview, he is one of the highest level thinkers and influencers in the 20th century. So I love that account. By the way, I think last time I talked about it, I called it, what did I just say?

Machen, before I called it Makin and Mockin. I think I've mispronounce his name every single time. I got more emails about that. So grace from our listeners on that one, my bad. Humility is good for all of us. Exactly. But don't miss the accounts that we're giving. That's what's so compelling.

And I love that you brought in the example of somebody who's reformed, because the next scholar I want to turn to, and then I want to ask if there's some athletes that you have, the next scholar is not reformed. He is more Pentecostal by his very nature. But Craig Keener is hands down, one of the leading New Testament scholars today. One of the kindest, most gentle people you'll ever meet. He's brilliant. This morning, I was actually reading his two-volume commentary on John in my just Bible study time.

I'm working through the gospel of John. He reports a pretty fascinating experience. Tell us about it. Sure. So this was actually coming from an interview that you had with him. And so you tell me if I've got it right here. But I was so impressed when he wrote his book on miracles. some people called it from a scholarly perspective, majestic.

And I thought, I kind of rolled my eyes, thought, yelled majestic, whatever. And I got into it and started seeing that sometimes three-fourths of a page was dedicated to the footnotes of documentation of miracles and things. I said, yes, it's majestic after a while. That he is just a consummate scholar. I actually saw him in Boston at the evangelical theological, philosophical society meetings. shook his hand and i told the guy next to me i may never watch this hand again he's just a powerful but just a wonderful person so from your interview he told how as a young person he was a smug atheist who thought all christians were stupid uh yet his worldview offered no meaning in

life so this is as a young person probably in his late teens he doesn't he doesn't give a time exactly but i i took it that it was as late teens uh and he had he said this sort of a mental prayer. I don't think he said it outside, but he said, quote, if there's something infinite out there that also happens to be caring, please show me. Now, that's a good, good prayer for any of us seekers. I remember I used to say, kind of said at some points of doubting, God, if you're there, just, you know, reveal yourself some way. Now, he thought it would come in the form of some argument if it happened, but it came in a different form. So one day after he was arguing with some Christians who seemed to not have any apologetics training at all, it wasn't very deep.

But the Holy Spirit just took control. He said, I was so, this is quoting, I was so overwhelmed with conviction from the Holy Spirit for the next hour or so, I just finally collapsed to my knees. God was in the room with me. There is no way I could deny his presence, end quote. That's what I mean by self-authenticate. There was no way he could deny it. quote again that wasn't the kind of experience for which i'd been asking but it was more real he said i take it uh he wasn't asking for a visionary experience so he responded quote okay god i don't understand

how jesus dying and rising from the dead makes me right with you but if that's what you're saying i believe it i don't know how to be made right with you but if you want me to do it you have to do it for me yourself, end quote. All of a sudden, I felt something rushing through my body I'd never felt before, end quote. He jumped to his feet and said, so this is an adult who's been through a lifetime of research and study, reflecting back in saying this was so powerful, it redirected his entire life. He said, quote, wow, I always said these Christians are foolish because they don't live like they believe there's a God. If I believe there's a God, I would give him everything. thing, end quote.

I don't understand, quote again, I don't understand what just happened to me, but I believe there's a God now, and I'm going to give God my life. So, end quote, he follows through that commitment, dedicates himself to religious studies throughout his life until he earned his Ph.D. Now teaches New Testament at Asbury Seminary. His author 25 books and about 100 academic articles. So changed his life. 180 degrees

and boom there's his life a couple things about his story number one is these people were witnessing to him and like mocking him exactly what you shouldn't do as kind of a Christian evangelist God still used it in his life but he was an atheist

sometimes people just this week I was speaking someone was like when your dad was an atheist before he investigated Christian I was like no he was an agnostic Keener was an atheist so no miracle no supernatural, no angels, no demons, no spiritual realm. And then he's just encountered and humbled by this, transformed his life, and has become kind of charismatic and Pentecostal in the sense that he believes these gifts are present and active in the world today. But he's such a careful scholar

for him to include this as well should minimally give people pause and say, wait a minute, Am I too quickly dismissing these? Now, before we go to the last thing, I want to invite those who are listening with us to do this. Steve has gathered some of these accounts together by picking up biographies. Would you be willing to help us out in two ways? Number one, if you had a kind of visionary experience and are willing to share it, please put it in the comments. One of the reasons Steve is one of my favorite guests is he goes through and reads and comments and literally does his best to minister to people. as he can personally. It's a remarkable ministry that he has and the different videos and interviews

that we've done. So if you include a story there would help help us. Second, if you have books behind us in your house, pick it up like Steve said. And look, see if there's a word vision. Look at the end. And if there is an account, please tell us about it. We want more accounts like this. And maybe you have books or stories we don't know. Tell us. And then we could come back and a report even more of these. All right, last realm. Just recently, of course, is the Super Bowl finished up the professional football season. And while there's a lot of conversation about the halftime show and the unbalanced victory, that is not the topic here. Are there any respected individuals in the broader football realm that you've been able to track down that report these kind of visionary experiences? So arguably, the most highly respected football coach of all time, both on. and off the field would be Vince Lombardi. And that's why you hear them say,

okay, what do they get at the end if you win the Super Bowl, the Vince Lombardi trophy? Okay, this is Vince Lombardi. So I had a, I have biographies as just a wide variety of people. So I looked and sure enough, there was at his death, two different respected players had visions right when he was dying, some type of, I would say, a visionary experience that woke them up. and said at um he was declared dead at 712 a.m. one morning.

Paul Hornung who happened to be in nearby college park was jolted awake with an odd sensation. Quote, it was freaky, he said later. I woke up and said to myself, we lost him. We lost him. Then Tom Brown, who was in Minnesota, totally different state, bolted out of bed at the same moment with a similar foreboding. I looked at the clock. It was 6.30. All I could think of was Lombardi, just Lombardi, that's all I could see. Now, I'm quoting from them. This is a Pulitzer Prize winning biography of Lombardi. You can look at it on, let's see, page 498.

Those people I mentioned you might not be familiar with. Paul Horning graduated from Notre Dame with a degree in business was highly respected. Lombardi once said he was the greatest player I ever coached, won the Heisman trophy. It is in the Hall of Fame. Tom Brown, who also had that woke up with that, played both baseball and football for the University of Maryland, went on to play Major League Baseball and Professional Football. They independently, one says he was jolted, the other one bolted. Wow. Now, I would think these are just one-off experiences, except that's precisely the type thing that when it was studied at the University of Cambridge,

William James was a part of that study of crisis apparitions, they studied like 17,000 people around Cambridge, Harvard, around, these were the highest, probably, degreed places in most of the world. And what they found was, again, as I mentioned earlier, that these crisis apparitions, these people that just had a vision or just a sudden urge to know that somebody had died, that they didn't even know was sick maybe, that this happened way too often for chance to explain it. You know, Steve, one that just came to my mind while you were saying this is I think it was two seasons ago, DeMar Hamlin, the safety from the Buffalo Bills, who just had that, I mean, heroin collapse in the middle of the

field middle of the game they stopped the game uh i remember reading accounts of kind of a near-death experience and i just pulled it up right now about he was baptized a couple days ago i haven't read the details on his story i don't want to speak out of term but i'm just pointing out that conversations about these even just in the football realm is far more common than many people would indicate so if somebody's track to that story give us a couple reliable links that we could look into as well. That would be a fascinating one. Just to add to your account that this is far more common. And certainly, if that's true, he was not planning on that given the hit that he took on the field. No chance he was expecting that. All right, Steve, there are so many more accounts that we could talk about.

I literally love this stuff. It's so interesting. But maybe tell us you've been studying these accounts and dozens and dozens more. what are some of your practical takeaways from this interview and this topic? Number one, we're trying to get this conversation started. There's tons of great research out there on near-death, deathbed experiences, visions, people have done dissertations like on visitations with angels. For some reason, the Christian world has been kind of slow to get this into our apologetic literature as evidence. And this is really important because if we can establish, which I think these well do, that these things are still happening today to scientifically-minded people, it doesn't matter whether you're an atheist or a Christian or whatever people

are having these experiences, that needs to be thought about. We want to get the conversation started. And for me personally, I would just say that this has been, this has put the icing on my theological and philosophical cake. Need a daily spark of hope and direction? Let the Daily Bible app from Salesforce. media be that spark. This free Android app delivers an uplifting verse each morning, plus reading plans, devotions, and trusted podcasts from leaders like Joyce Meyer and Rick Warren. Prefer to listen instead? The Daily Bible app reads verses, reading plans and chapters allowed, handy for the headphones moment of your day. Choose from versions like ESV, NIV, KJV, and more,

and bookmark favorites to revisit later. Share inspiring messages with loved ones right from the app. Feel God's presence in every notification. Search for daily. Bible app on Google Play and begin your day with hope, purpose, and peace. When I was going through my times of doubting and questioning through my college years, going through academia, studying apologetics, studying atheists, studying atheists, studying Christians, reading both sides of things. When I was going through this, I really didn't see anything on this. Now, what I studied were the historical foundations of the faith,

like the New Testament, the archaeology, the why should I trust these documents? the quality of the New Testament documents, including the resurrection. That was a big part of my study. And I'm forever grateful that I have that foundation in my background. But what this has done is now that I study the best studies on visions near death, deathbed experiences, and all these things, and I start telling people around me what I'm studying. I have people coming to me that are successful businessmen, that are just guys, that I trust and know, and they're telling me about their visions of Jesus. It's like if I were to ask

them, well, what do you think? Did Jesus rise from the dead? I said, well, yeah, I just talked to him. You know, I mean, in this, it was a one-of-a-kind vision. It's not like they're every day having these things, but it just makes the reality so much greater when you see that people are experiencing these things today. And I just want to encourage people, make this a point of conversation, Now, what you're going to find is we've pulled out some of the more reliable type documented visions. Remember, Proverbs where Solomon says, don't be naive, right? We don't need to just accept the naive believes everything. So we don't just believe every account out there.

If there are visions from God, there are probably also visions, and I believe this is true, that are from malevolent spiritual sources out there. There are people out there that are lying to get a buck. And I can tell you right now to relieve your mind, any of these books that I've written on near death and deathbed experiences, I'll just give them to you as a free PDF. I didn't write these things to make money. I wrote them because what could be more important than finding out

if there's really a guide and there's really an eternity out there. So this changed. my life. But look at First Thessalonians five, the Apostle Paul warns us. He says, test everything. Be thinkers. David Hume claimed that there aren't

any miracles going on in scientific and advanced times, but he never documented any of it. I think it's time for people, like some scientists were doing during Hume's time, actually investigate the miracles and see what's going on.

because they're all around us. It's changed my life. And I just don't have any more doubts, Sean. I mean, I could get the evidence for the resurrection and the New Testament up to about a 95%. But then when I saw people experiencing God and Jesus and miracles today, that just topped it off. I'm not really struggling with doubt anymore. Oh, I so love that. Steve, in the past, you've given out your email, but let me ask you this. I'm asking you this live. what if I create a site and we just put the PDFs on there so people can download it so you don't get barraged with a bunch of personal emails? Would that be easier or do you want, like I can make it Sean McDowell.org slash afterlife and people could just download them right there or do you want to give out your email, you make the call? For now, J. Steve Miller at gmail.com email me and I can send it to you.

I like hearing from people. But let's consider that. I want to talk to my wife about it first and make sure this is a good idea. So, but that sounds great. But, but you know, when I hear, when I'm in a hospital and I talk to a nurse and she tells me about an extraordinary visionary experience, she saw somebody dying, it sends chills down my spine. It makes a hair on your arm raise. I think that was the power that we saw. in the New Testament that I'd kind of lost in my life, and now I feel like I have that

hair raising on your arms, chill down your spine. I think that's what, when he talked about signs and wonders, that's the wonder part of it. Here's something that you're not expecting in the natural course of things, and when it happens, it impacts us. And we have to sit down and think about it and say, what does this mean if we're really living and, and a very spiritual world. It impacts our lives. It changes us. Steve, I love that you ended there because I'm guessing there's some people going, okay, I'm intrigued. I'm interested. I want the books, but I want to go further. I finally got a class that we're going to co-teach, and you're going to lead most of it at Talibu School Theology at Biola, May 12th and 13th. And people can

come audit this class if they want to. Or if people are in our masters and apologize, program, take it as an elective. You've heard me talk about the apologetics program here for a while. If you've thought, you know what, maybe I'll do it, maybe not. There is no excuse now. We're going to have Dr. Steve Miller in person teaching all day Tuesday on this. I'll be there as well, hanging out, answering questions, doing one kind of lecture as well. And then Wednesday morning, we're going to have you in studio. All of our interviews have been by a distance. We're going to have you in the Talbot studio and we're going to record and students will be there live watching. And then we'll stop and they'll get to ask a bunch of questions.

And the two topics, one will be when children experience near-death experiences. What happens? How evidentially significant is this? What are the best evidenced accounts? And then second, objections to this, like biblical concerns about near-death experiences. Does this teach reincarnation? What about universalism? You're going to teach that there.

It's a part of what's called the Anchored Conference, which is a three-day conference at Biola. And that Wednesday night, I'm having a public conversation with an atheist friend of mine. So if you are still with us on this video and you're like, I want to go deeper natural life apologetics. I'm considering this master's program, perfect time to sign up right now. One thing you could do is you could just email me through my site and I will forward it to the team if you're like, I have questions about this conference. I have questions about what it would take to audit this. So through my site, Sean McDowell.org, email me that I get to my team. And we will send this on so people can respond specifically to you. Or you can just search

Talbot, Biola Apologetics, Masters, and it will pop up. And you can join us and sign up for the class right there. We would love to have you. And while you're at it, make sure you click subscribe and join us because we've got some other shows coming up on Islam. We have shows coming up on a range of topics, including a new book out on some of the theology of Michael Heiser. And we're going to do a live Q&A, taking your questions on that. Won't want to miss it. Make sure you hit subscribe. And Steve, again, always enjoy these.

Thank you for preparing. Thanks for being just such a gracious and thoughtful guest. Thanks so much for having me. Hey, friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that follow button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning in haven't done this yet. And it makes a huge difference in helping us reach and equip more people and build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every review helps.

Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where we have on campus and online programs in apologetic, spiritual information, marriage and family, Bible, and so much more. We would love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and defend the Christian faith today. And we will see you when the next episode drops. What do you do when the world around you is falling apart? It's amazing to me how many people are breathing air. They're going about their business and doing the things you're supposed to do.

But if you really ask them, they know that on the inside, they are spiritually and emotionally and relationally dead. If we're not careful, all of us can experience that death. When what we need to do, even as the world around us is falling apart, we need to learn how to march when it would be easier to stay where we are and die. me each week on the March or Die show as we discuss that and so much more.