The Sean McDowell Show - From Dalit to Dignity: A Hindu’s Radical Conversion to Christ

Episode Date: June 24, 2025

How does an "untouchable" Hindu from Nepal become a follower of Jesus? Does he still face persecution and mistreatment today in Nepal? Suresh is a friend of Thaddeus Williams, a professor at Biola, and he's here today to explain his remarkable story of his life as the lowest class citizen in the caste system to becoming a Christian. PLEASE consider supporting Suresh in getting his doctorate: https://www.gofundme.com/f/gofundmecombless-the-budhaprithis*Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf)*USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM)*See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK)FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowellTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=enInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/Website: https://seanmcdowell.org

Why would a former Hindu from a destitute, elite family in Nepal, an untouchable member of the caste system, become a follower of Jesus? What does it cost him personally from Christians and non-Christians for his conversion? Our guest today is Suresh Bhutaprity, a doctoral student who I heard about from

my friend and colleague, Thaddeus Williams at Talbot School of Theology. Suresh, since I heard about your story, I've been so looking forward to talking with you. Thanks so much for coming on. Thank you for having me here. Thank you, Dr. Singh. Well, let's jump right in. You were born in the caste system in Nepal as a member of the delete class. What does that mean and how were you treated growing up? Okay, that's a very good question. Thank you for asking me this question. Being born in delete in Nepal is being born with a label, you know, it's a tag which you cannot avoid it

So when I was born in Nepal as a Dalit As a childhood, I didn't know much about it I didn't know the meaning of being Dalit and later as I grew up I started Realizing the importance of being Dalit. I mean, I realized the meaning of it because I figured out that I was discriminated in many places just because I was Dalit. And that really hurt me. So being in Dalit, being born in Dalit means

you are not treated as a human being. You are treated as sub-humans. You are not accepted in temples. You are not accepted easily even in the schools. And you are not welcome in places where other people go for freely. For instance, let me give you examples. In a temple, in a Hindu temples, as a being Dalit, we are compelled to worship

God and God's deities outside of the temples because we are not allowed to go in. Since we are treated as impure, we are treated as polluting human beings. So it was very tough being a delete. Thank you for sharing that. In your article in Thaddeus Williams' book, you even described that sometimes dogs were allowed in places, that human beings in the delete class were not. That's just harrowing. I really appreciate your honesty and willing to share that.

When most Americans think of the caste system, they think of India, they're more familiar with it. What are some similarities and differences between India and Nepal? Do you share a common culture across borders? Yes, sir, we have a, yeah, that's a very good question, sir. We share a common culture between India and Nepal because India is our border in that we share borders with

India and China and we have a since India is in Nepal we have the vast majority of people are Hindus whereas even I believe that in India so there are many people who still believe in Hindus. So as a country, as a neighbor country, we share our common values, common cultures like festivals. We celebrate the Dasi Festival in Nepal and the Festival of Lights. The same kind of festivals are celebrated in India. And if we talk about the untestability, or let's say about the treatments among Dalits,

we have similar kinds of, let's say, the problems, I mean similar kinds of hearts that we have been facing being a Dalit in India and Nepal. You know, we have a couple of friends, I have a couple of friends in my seminary who belong to Dalit community in India. They told me they shared the same story that I have.

They are regarded as untouchable and they have their own places to stay. What I mean to say is that they have their own villages. They are not allowed to stay with other non-Dalit people. Just like in Nepal, in some parts of Nepal we have some villages, in some parts of Nepal we have places which is only designed for Dalits where non-Dalit people don't go there and they don't stay together. Yes, so we have some cultural similarities, yes.

I'm thrilled to hear that not only you are working on your theological education, but there's many others from the Dalit class in India getting education and trying to help people as well. That's fascinating to hear. What was your childhood like? Did you go to school? If so, what was the school like? What did your parents do? Describe your childhood for us, if you will. Well, being a Dalit, my childhood was very terrible.

I faced discrimination in many fields. As a child, I didn't know the meaning of being Dalit, but as I grew up, then I started realizing that what it means to be Dalit. For instance, I didn't have many friends in my childhood. I wanted to make many friends, but I was compelled to spend time with only Dalit friends. So if we happen to make friends with non Dalits What happens we could we were not allowed to touch them even though we were we played together

We were not allowed to touch them and if we happen to touch them by mistakes they used to they used to go home and then and their parents used to let's say sprinkle them them with golden dipped water to make them holy. Because they thought that we made them unholy, we made them impure just by touching them. We polluted them. So my childhood was very bad and let me tell you some story that I faced even in the school, even in school life. My childhood was not very very good one

because I was I was treated differently from from my friends. You know I didn't I still remember when I was a little boy I I had to take my water bottle from my own home, where, you know, in school we had a tap, water tap, where every student was allowed to go and drink. But as a Dalit, I was not allowed to do that. That's why my mother used to give me a bottle of water from home, which I used to take and drink because they thought that if I toss that water tap, it will defile and it will make them let's impure. That's why I would tell you that my childhood was not very good one. Yeah, I'm so sorry.

My parents. Yeah. Keep going, please. Yeah, I want to share something about my parents. Okay. As I told you earlier that I was born in a Dalit destitute family. So my parents did manual work. For instance, my father, he was a tailor by profession. He used to make saws, pans for people of let's say higher caste.

So it was he who made the dresses for upper-class people. His dress was okay, the dress he made was touchable, but he himself was untouchable. So that really impacted me negatively. So that made me question the system of touchability and untouchability in Nepal. It's totally natural you would question that when you're treated so differently and subhuman and discriminated against. It breaks my heart to hear you just describing this. It's really so painful.

Did you have any friends who were not Hindus of any caste system, like maybe Christians or Muslims who just didn't believe in that system and treated you like what maybe some of us outside of the caste system would just say treating somebody normally? Or was there no one around you that wasn't a Hindu? So the relationship with my, let's say with non-Hindus or Hindus or Muslims was good. Let me say what I mean to say is our relationship outside the house was very good. Let me say so in so you know as I was regarded it's untossable but when when what happens when when Nepal government abolished the caste system in Nepal in 1963 what happens the discrimination bit discrimination slowly started to minimize.

What I mean to say is untouchouchability was not the issue anymore. But there was different forms of discrimination. For instance, outside the house, I was allowed to go. There was no problem with my friends. We are Muslim, or let's say Hindus. We could go outside of their house, but the only thing was we were not allowed to go inside their home and we're not allowed to eat together with them. So I would say my relationship with them was social.

Outside the house was social, but inside it was not good. That's a helpful distinction. So does the caste system still exist in Nepal today in any fashion at all? Yes, unfortunately, yes. I must say that it is, yes. So Nepal legally abolished the caste system and criminalized it in 1963-80. But unfortunately in reality, in practical sense, it is still here. People have experience, people have different stories to tell you. Dalit are still being discriminated in Kathmandu or in Nepal. For example, let me give you they are not still they are not allowed to enter The houses of higher class people, you know in Kathmandu

I want to say one thing you as a Dalit you are not allowed to rent a house and when you want to rent a house, but you need to hide your Identity your real identity who you are So if you let if you let people know that in the beginning that you are from Talit, you you're not going to get apartment. You're not going to get apartment because they don't want to they don't want you to pollute their house. Let me give you my own example. I stayed in Kathmandu.

I rented a house, let's say a small apartment. The lady, our landlady, she came to me. She asked me what caste I belonged to. I knew if I told the truth, let me say, if I reveal my real caste, it will bring the problem. So I decided not to disclose it and then then the lady told me if you are from Dalit background we're not gonna let you stay here and where would I take my two kids? So I was compelled to hide my cast. So

that is the problem. So we we still have cast system in Nepal. Even though it was abolished in 1963, the practice is still there. And the mentality of people have never changed. No matter how educated they are, they still discriminate. Only there is, I think, the form of discrimination has changed, of course. There is no untouchability anymore. But in other sectors, discrimination is still there.

So the caste system still persists in Nepal. I want to share with you one recent incident that happened in Nepal. You know, some of the Hindu groups, they were organizing Hindu sacrificial ritual programs. And what they found in that ritual site, there was a house of a Dalit. And they decided, oh, and they thought, oh, if that, since there is a house of Dalit, it will pollute the whole environment. So they, they, you know what they did? They demolished his house

and they were compelled to move in a in a shelter, in a temporary shelter, you see. And then his house was bulldozed. His house was bulldozed. They used the bulldozer to eradicate to, use the bulldozer to eradicate house to make him leave that place. So Professor, yes, this is discrimination is still there. And the only things we can say is there is no untestability now. In many places it has improved. But discrimination is everywhere in Nepal, in every sectors. But I must tell you in some parts of Nepal, untouchability is still there. It's still, there are some people who will sprinkle with golden

tossed water if you happen to toss with Dalits. Yes. if you happen to toss with Dalits. Yes. So where and when did the caste system develop and how much of it stems from Hindu beliefs themselves? I think the caste system has a long history. You must go to Rig Veda's Hindu scriptures. So when you read the Hindu scriptures, you come to know that caste system emerged from Hindu scriptures. In Rig Veda, it says that there are four groups of castes Brahman, Chaitri, Vaise and

Shudras. When it says Brahmans are immersed from the mouth whereas Dalits from the feet. What we understand from this is, so as we know that all parts of bodies are important, but why we are born from feet? There is a mentality. There is a mentality of discrimination. Since we are born from the feet, we are always subjected to oppressed. That is the I think the burner system, cash system started in 14th centuries. In 14th centuries. Yeah. It's one of the big differences between Hinduism and Christianity is what does it mean to be human? Where does human value come from?

And are we really all equal? Some of those issues were at the heart of your coming to Jesus. You tell a story in the book by Thaddeus Williams. He's written a wonderful book on kind of biblical justice, confronting injustice without compromising truth. Your story is in there and you describe an encounter with Professor Williams, will you tell us that about how and why you became a Christian? Actually I always wanted to live as a human being. I told you earlier I was even I was not even treated as a dog. So a dog is welcome in a house, but as a human being I was not welcomed. I always lived a life of subhuman. I was never welcomed.

I had limited friends. I was not living as a human being and that really hurt me. So I want to live as a dignified human being. And one day, you know, as I was searching for the meaning of my life, I questioned myself, am I really a human being? Why am I born? Why? What is the purpose of my life? Why am I different from other people? That was the question in my life. One day in 1999, I met a student from Ballet University.

He was in a mission trip and we talked about the caste system and we talked about Jesus, how he embraces people that did like me as his image viewer. So that really taught me. So since I knew that it is Jesus who can embrace me as his friend, because I didn't have many friends. So he was ready to embrace me and that really touched my heart. And then I decided to believe in Jesus as my Lord and Savior. That is the reason Yeah, I must say that only reason and a salvation was there of course Yeah, salvation was there the issue of salvation was there but my the most important

Let's say the most important reason was I wanted to be accepted as a human being Because I was not living as a human being. That is the reason. That's a beautiful story and it makes sense. Growing up as a Dalit and treated subhuman like you described, searching for dignity, and then you come across this person, Jesus, who says everybody is made in the image of God,

regardless your age or your sex or where you're from or your wealth. And you show nothing but love and care for those on the fringes of society, those who were say crippled or women or children at that time. It makes sense that that message would hit home and be liberating given where you're from. How is the message of Jesus often received by other Hindus, Dalit or not, when you have a chance to share with them? Well that is a it's a good question sir. There is a mixed response. Some people welcome where some others don't welcome it. You know we have in Nepal it's it's really difficult to preach gospel these days. But in the

past, in the past the message of Jesus was welcomed very easily. But these days due to media and there are different misinformation about Christianity and some people, some Christians in Nepal, they are not really doing well. I mean, the name of Jesus hasn't been represented very well that has made really difficult for us to To share the gospel because for instance, there is some people they some people in Nepal. They complain that Nepali Christians there they are getting

They are leaving people to be Christian by giving money, which is absolutely not true but that that is the misinformation in the market and another thing is when you help people as a Christian when you help people in Nepal those Hindus they blame that Christians are giving food for free but in the name of giving food, they are also distributing Bibles. So there was a rumor during COVID times and during earthquake in Nepal. When Nepal was hit by massive earthquake,

we Christian, we distributed food. We tried our best to help those people, those victims, earthquake victims, but we were blamed that we were not only distributing food, but inside the bag of food, we distributed Bible, which was, yeah, maybe in some parts, maybe they did, because, but it was, I think,

we were trying to help our best, so people do not take it positively these days. So every time we try to go out with the message of Christ, in some parts of Nepal we are welcomed whereas the other parts of Nepal people still question us and they try to prosecute us. That is the things. What would you say are some of the key differences between Hinduism and Christianity? I think there are many differences in Christianity and Hindus. Let me tell you in Christianity, we believe in one God. We believe in monotheism.

Whereas in Hinduism, whereas in Hinduism there are, it is said that there are 330 million God and Goddesses. 330 million God and Goddesses are there. So they don't have only one particular God whom to trust. So they have numerous Gods in Hinduism. And in Hinduism they believe in karma they believe in karma they believe that salvation comes through the karma that you do and they believe that what you sow you reap so whatever you do in

this life you're gonna have next life you're gonna have a rebirth and then if you do well in this life you will have a better life in the future. If not you're going to have a life of animals. You might be even dogs, cats, rats. So they say that. But in Christianity we believe in salvation as a free gift of Jesus and we receive salvation by faith. And we have a hope in Jesus Christ. In Christianity we have a hope. Whereas in Hinduism we don't have hope. So the reason why many people come to Jesus in Nepal

is because they are looking for real hope. They are looking for someone whom they can trust. That is the reason. I think that is the main difference. And scripture, in Hinduism we have different scriptures whereas in Christianity we just have one scripture that's Bible. Yeah. That's really helpful when you think about karma. If someone is in the Dalit class from a Hindu perspective, they're suffering and treated subhuman because of earlier evils or bad things that they did. Thus, we should let it play itself out.

On a Christian perspective, everybody is made in the image of God and we might suffer at times from bad things we've done in this life but sometimes we suffer just because the world we live in and because of bad things that other people do. So we can see how a worldview shapes whether we care for human beings or not. That difference between Hinduism and Christianity is significant. Now is there caste-based discrimination in the Nepali church today or not? And what might that look like? That's a very good question.

Thank you for asking me this question. Yes. Unfortunately, I must say that there is still caste-based discrimination in Nepali churches. As a Christian, I should say that there is no discrimination. I wish I could say that, but unfortunately, we still have caste-based discrimination in Nepali churches. I want to tell you one thing. When you go to, when you enter a Nepali church, the first question they ask you is what is your name? When you say that my name is Suresh, when I say my name is Suresh, and they will ask you another question, Suresh

what? I mean they ask my surname, my first name is not enough. And then when they realize that I'm from Dalit, their mentality changes. It looks, it's okay in churches within two hours of worship time, there is no discrimination at all. You know, we share the same plates after the service, after the service, we eat in the same table, we drink water from the same jar, we hug each other. There's no problem during the service time. But the problem comes when you want to have a marital relationship. When a Dalit wants to get married with non-Dalit,

there comes problem. There is where caste comes as a barrier. I was not allowed to marry a non-Dalit. I was not allowed. So I ended up marrying a lady from my one caste. So the form of discrimination had changed. Of course, let me repeat you, there is no untouchability in Nepali Christian community. But when marital relationship comes, there is a question. When they need a leader in a church, for example, you need a pastor.

You need a pastor in a church. If you are from Dalit community, then you are not encouraged to be a pastor. You're not encouraged. And you are compelled to have your own church. I want to share you one story. I have a friend, he is a Dalit pastor, and he told me that, he shared me that during the time of Lord Supper, during the day when they had a Lord Supper, he used to have very few gatherings. Then he questioned, why the other day we have more believers but on that day we have less believers. What's the reason? And then he came to realize that and he was told that since the Lord's Supper the the bread is the

bread is from God. It's a holy bread. But he was a Dalit pastor. So when, when Dalit pastor taught us that holy bread, it becomes impure. It becomes unholy. So the congregation members were not willing to take that bread because it was taught by a Dalit pastor. So that day, he saw the significant number of believers not coming to church. So that is the story. So discrimination is still in church and that is where I want to really bring some changes in the society. That is a wonderful vision to have. If you're watching this right now and you know a Nepali Christian or a Nepali church,

send this to them and ask them, is there any discrimination like this in the church? Share this, ask them to justify it. If you go to a church and you see this, don't tolerate it. Call it out for the unbiblical and unchristian kind of discrimination that this is. I love your vision, Suresh, and your heart to bring this change.

The church has to be different from the world, even if it costs us something. And this is a great example of this. If you're watching this, please share it with an Nepali pastor, with an Nepali Christian and see what they have to say. As a former Hindu, what biblical passages or teachings are most special to you and why? Actually as a former Hindu, the biblical passage that taught me really is Galatians 3.28 where it says, there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there

is neither male nor female, you are all one in Christ. Actually the last part, you are all one in Christ. So for the man who really faced discrimination throughout his life, for the man who was treated as differently, as a different human being beings when he came to know that We are all one in Christ That really impacted by my life that really taught me and another another biblical story that really taught me is the story of Jesus and Samaritan woman.

He's dealing with that lady. So Jesus was willing to have water from her when actually she was downcast in that time. There was a, people didn't want to, let's say, people didn't want to deal well with her and she was not treated well there was an enmity between Samaritan and other groups of people but at that time Jesus knowing that she was downcast he was willing to deal with her he was willing to drink water from her from her that incident really tossed me because I was in her position. I was in her shoes and since no one was willing to drink the water that I tossed,

but Jesus wanted to drink from a Samaritan lady, from a Samaritan woman. So I reflected my story with that one. So that really impacted me and that really tossed me. So I was impressed hearing that story. Galatians 3.28 and the story in John 4 are beautiful stories and they really highlight that not only did Jesus think that everybody is made in the image of God with dignity and worth and value.

Jesus died for everyone, male, female, Greek, Jew, slave, free. But we also see Jesus touching the leper who was untouchable at that time, welcoming children and his disciples try to shoo him away. He has female followers. He welcomes the sinful woman in Luke chapter 7 and the religious leaders try to shoo her away. So I think those are wonderful examples that you gave that just show how different and unique Jesus

is from all other major religious figures. How many other Nepali Christians are you aware of that have a similar burden that you have for the Nepali Church? I think many, many Nepalese people people they have a similar burdens That I have I believe that they have this kind of burden But people are not They are not I think they are not doing their best for the people Even though we we have we are called to serve Lord and we have burdened, but because of the political instability in Nepal, because of the so many prosecutions and because of the hurdles from the governments,

we are not allowed to preach the gospel freely. Even though we have burdens, we are not in a position to share with them. We are not really doing our... we are not really able to do our best. I think we need to pray more for this. That's a wonderful thing to pray for. I have two more questions for you. I know this is different, but so many Muslims, most Muslims I talk with, have some kind of supernatural encounter or a dream of Jesus before coming to faith. Obviously in Nepal and in India,

this is not a country dominated by naturalism, but one in which the idea of the supernatural is very prevalent and expected. Do miracles and the supernatural play a role, sometimes often rarely, when Nepali Christians come to faith? Oh yes, miracle is one of the one of the reasons why many Christians convert into Christianity, many Hindus convert into Christianity is miracles also. In Nepal we do not we believe in miracles. Actually we have many Nepalese people they still have Hindu mentalities. And when they come to Christianity, when they become Christian, they believe in miracles. Because in Hinduism also, there are some miracles,

but they are not real miracles. But when they come to Christianity, they have, they encountered Jesus and they've encountered real miracles in their life. And that that really changes them. Many people in in Christianity did this. If you ask them the reason why they are Christian is because they were healed.

They were healed. In Nepal, there are not many hospitals. If you go to the countryside, it's very difficult for you to get in touch with doctors. You are far away from hospitals. At that point, you have no other way than turning to God. You turn to God. So when you turn to God and then you are healed and when we are healed that makes us believe in more and more.

And we also believe in Nepal there is also when people are healed from other let's say demons possessed things like that and some people are in church you meet people who are demon possessed and they have demons and when they are healed by the power of Jesus when they are healed by the power of Jesus they are changed and as a result of their change when they are changed, when they are healed from miracles, when they are healed from Jesus, when they are demon possessed, when they are demon possessed but healed by Jesus, that brings them into Christ. And many people people hearing the story, many people come to Jesus. I love to hear that. At some point maybe we could talk about some of those particular miracles.

But for now, tell us about your doctoral research and how it plays into your future plans? Well, currently I'm doing my DEME in America. And actually I have, as a Dalit student, I have brought up the issue of discrimination in Christian marriages, particularly in Kathmandu. The reason why I choose this topic is I want to see the I want to see positive changes in Nepali Christian community. I want everyone to be treated equally. I want every every pastors every church leaders to practice what they preach. We preach that we are we are all one in Christ. But in in in case of when marriage comes and when leadership comes, then people still fear face discriminated. And I want to bring that

kind of this I want to change this in Nepal body society so I I choose this topic so that when I go home I can tell people that we are all one in Christ so after my study I want to go back to Nepal Nepal and start a ministry actually I'm from Dalit community. I want to work for Dalits. There are many people, there are many Dalits, they need Jesus. And they are very easy to bring in Christ because they have never, they have always been treated as subhuman. They want to live a dignified life and we need some people to feel that. We need people who can bring them in Christ.

So I want to reach out to many Dalits in Nepal. Not only Dalits but also non-Dalits. That is why my plan is to go back to Nepal and start a ministry that can uplift the life of Dalits and let them know that we are image bearers of Christ and we are all welcomed in God's family. That is a beautiful, wonderful vision. I'm going to ask my audience if they'd be willing to specifically pray for you, because I think there's a lot of people who will welcome this research and want to see discrimination go away, but there'll be a lot of people, including Christians, who won't want it to, and likely spread lies about you and your family Try to stop this from happening for a range of reasons

So friends if below you'll specifically put Suresh and his research and ministry on your prayer list Just write below pray put a pray emoji and just commit to praying for him that God protects his family, God protects his health, just God gives him research and favor to see the goodness of God and his love for all people lead to a revival and transformation within the church and beyond in Nepal. Suresh, one last question for you if I can. If someone's watching this and they're from

the Dalit class and maybe they just clicked on this because they're curious to hear your story but they're not a follower of Jesus. What would you say to a member of the Dalit class of why you think they should consider following Jesus? I want to tell them that you are welcome in Christianity. I want to tell all the Dalits who are non-Christians or Christians, you are treated as an image bearer of Christ in Christianity. You are no longer discriminated. Because we are the children of God in when we believe Jesus is our Lord and Savior we become the children of God as a children of God

we are together there is no discrimination in Jesus yes some people still they do they might discriminate us in some aspects. They might do that, but in the eyes of God, we are all equal. Jesus loves you. Jesus embraces you as his friend. Come to Jesus and he will welcome you. He will love you. Yes, these are my messages.

That is a wonderful message. Suresh, I've interviewed a handful of former Hindus from different caste systems and hearing their story, obviously very, very different than your own. And I've really been waiting for a long time to interview somebody with a story like yours. So I'm grateful that Thaddeus Williams again, my colleague at Biola and Talbot connected us. Thank you for sharing your story, I think for the first time publicly outside of Thaddeus's book. So friends, for you watching this, I hope you, it was wonderful.

I hope you'll consider sharing this with a friend, specifically, maybe somebody who's Hindu, Dalit or not, so they could just watch this and hear the story of somebody with a powerful reason why they follow after Jesus. Keep us abreast of your research and I'll pass it on to folks here when you finish your doctoral research. I want to pass it on. I think some people will be really interested in reading and hearing about what you come up with if you publish it or if it's online and

Folks watch and make sure you hit subscribe. We've got some other stories and interviews coming up Keep getting requests on near-death experiences. So in a few months, we're gonna do a video on when atheists have near-death experiences That promises to be interesting and we've got a few other fascinating interviews. I'm tempted to give it away right now, but I won't. Some in particular I know you'd be really excited about. And if you thought about studying apologetics, we have a full distance program and students quite literally around the world,

Suresh, from Africa and from New Zealand, we've had students, Europe, etc. And information is below. We'd love to train you to articulate and defend the faith. Suresh, God bless you and your family. Thank you so much. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for having me, Dr. Singh.