The Sean McDowell Show - From Satan to Jesus (Interviewing an Ex-Satanist)

Episode Date: June 11, 2024

HOW and WHY would former Satanist convert to Christianity? Why did she leave the Satanic Temple and join the Christian church? My guest today is Tepe, an ex-Satanist who one day picked up my father's classic book Evidence Demands a Verdict and was changed. We discuss her journey, the difference between naturalistic and supernaturalistic version of Satanism, and words of encouragement for the church. Don't miss this one! READ: Evidence that Demands a Verdict (https://amzn.to/3K5RFrf) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: @sean_mcdowell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org

Why would a former Satanist become a Christian? What was her journey into and out of Satanism? Well, you're about to find out because our guest today, Teep, was a Satanist who has recently become a follower of Jesus. And let me tell you, she has a story to tell. Now, before we jump in, tell me about your name, Teep. Where did it come from? What does does it mean it's a single name yeah i i don't have like a i'm just like madonna or share it's just i'm just kidding uh that's my last name i've

just i've gone by that since i was like a kid almost so it just kind of stuck i love it that's awesome no that makes sense that totally fair so let's go back to your childhood i first heard about you because you shared coming to faith and you referenced the book evidence that demands a verdict my father wrote recently helped him update that we will get to that but you're just tell me about your family growing up where you grew up what that was like yeah so i i grew up in kind of a a mid to rural not really like i went to high school surrounded by corn, if that gives you an idea. But we were very like my mom was a believer, like huge believer. Right. And we were very avid Christians growing up. We actually were raised Catholic.

And my mom was very like, these kids are going gonna be saved. You know what I mean? Like she was adamant on getting us to have a relationship with Jesus. And so we, you know, we'll go to church, you know, a lot. And we were in Sunday school, like every week we would do Sunday school. And I remember being like the, the kind of not like the outcast really, but like, I wasn't very social in school and i was kind of quiet and weird you know still weird but that's a whole other thing um but i would ask like weird questions like what would at the time like those kids like would consider weird like did adam and eve have belly buttons you know because they weren't like born necessarily so like what did

they look like you know and i kind of got laughed at for that. So that was like, kind of the first time that I felt kind of like ostracized by the church. And, you know, and when I say church, not like the religion, but like the people that are part of it, right. And then kind of continuing to grow up in that, and was such a believer and was like, would pray over a piece of candy when i was a kid you know it was like it was it was to like that level um and then i kind of you know you get into high school and there's a bunch of different like not pressure but you get a lot of outside influence um and there was a point where i was i will will say like, there are times as a Christian and as a believer where you're going to be like in the valley, as like we like to say, where you're not on fire,

right? And it feels kind of cold. And you're like, are you there? You know, like you, you know that he is, but like, sometimes you can't feel it. and so i definitely went through one of those periods like in high school in college and instead of like understanding what was happening i just fell off because i was like well clearly you know he's not there so that's kind of what happened um i got into a lot of like a cult in college um i had like we we called ourselves a coven there's like four of us um and did a lot of like ritual and spell work you know tarot cards and all that kind of like oracles and stuff um and from there um just weirdly enough kept like getting called back you know with like every now and then like when i would get really deep into like the occult would have just like the sudden urge to pick up a Bible.

And I was like, this is weird. I shouldn't be feeling like this, you know. But there's always been something about me like gravitating towards scripture, even when I was like, you know, a self-proclaimed witch. Right. And so after, you know, all of that kind of happened, just kind of like a whole bunch of stuff, you know, like in my life had gone down, you know, like with, you know, all of that kind of happened. Um, just kind of like a whole bunch of stuff, you know, like in my life had gone down, you know, like with, you know, family members, um, you know, like my, my aunt was diagnosed with CJD back in like 2012. And I was like, well, if you're there, you know, like kind of did the, the atheist thing of like, your God's not there. And if he is, then like, why would you want to worship someone who like lets this happen and like all that stuff?

So I basically went even further down the occult rabbit hole and was like, I don't feel anything anymore. So let me just look for any religion that I can. So like, I have like the Book of Mormon and like a Taoism book. And like I even found something from like Dianetics. And like I just started reading a whole bunch of weird stuff and found a satanic Bible and read through that thing in like a day. And I was like, man, I really agree with all this. And like the headspace that I was in at the time, you know, and just kind of became a full-fledged atheistic Satanist at that point. Okay, now for a lot of people when you say atheistic Satanist, some people are going to be like, what on earth does that mean yeah now you make a distinction in one of your short videos and Instagram between kind of like a supernatural Satanism which you are not

a part of an atheistic Satanism clarify for us yeah so there are at least to my knowledge right in 2024 there are two main sects if you will of Satanism there is an atheistic sect which is like the satanic temple or tst which basically um to speak on tst because i was a member of tst for a while um in my like local chapter to speak on that because i am familiar with that portion um it is greatly a like a political movement in in opposition to like a religion right so a lot of the stuff that tst like preaches is like religious equality and you know equality for everybody and they're very big on like they're kind of like i'm not i won't say that they're like social justice warriors but they're they're kind of they're on the cusp of that, you know?

Um, and a lot of the stuff that they do is actually like still like, as, as like a born again Christian, I'm like, that's still really cool that they do like donation drives and all this, you know what I mean? Like they're, they're very like a humanistic kind of a thing. They're just doing it for like a totally wrong reason so um but that's that's the the atheistic satanism is so they know they don't actually believe in god or satan um they actually use satan as like i don't want to say a mascot because that makes it sound weird but they look they see him as like a symbol of like because in their eyes um there's there's actually a book that a lot of them will like have you read um and i can divulge that later um but it's basically like their idea is that well in the mythos right that is christianity um sure that you know you know, God, you know, was all powerful and didn't give the proper authority or didn't give the proper attention to or whatever reason, right, that they had that actually like Lucifer, who started out as Lucifer and became Satan, right, was the knowledge bringer and because he felt oppressed by god this is their narrative he felt oppressed by god

and he felt like you know he didn't want to be a slave anymore so he revolted and took a lot of the angels with him so that is like the the mythos storyline that like tst and a lot of atheistic satanism would have you like kind of go with. But they don't actually believe in the existence of like Satan or God or angels or anything like, you know, supernatural as you know, we would say. On the other hand, you do have theistic Satanism, which they do believe in all of that. And they do believe in God most of the time. And they do believe in Satan, but they just choose to worship satan instead of god that makes sense i actually was on the website of the satanic temple not long ago because even though it's rooted in salem massachusetts of course they were starting some

clubs at a school across town maybe 10 minutes from where i live and we have some friends and family members and church members who go there. And it was a huge controversy in Southern Orange County for a while. So I was on their site and they were describing themselves as, I think they described as humanist. And Satan is just kind of a literary figure

that they look to in fiction as a model of who is a free thinker. He rejected authority, like certain characteristics in him, obviously a different spin than Christians would put on it. Yeah. But that's kind of their mascot, minus the supernatural stuff. So if you're raised as a Christian, you believed in supernatural things, like minimally angels and demons and the soul.

So why do you think you gravitated towards a naturalistic, atheistic version of Satanism as opposed to something else? Yeah, no. And that's a great question. So I think that a lot of it would, it's, I haven't had this conversation yet. So this is a weird, actually like admitting. So I went to school and I actually went to college for psychology. And when you do that, you tend to like unpack a lot of yourself. And I kind of had this like mental, it wasn't like a break really, but it was like, I don't believe in Santa anymore.

So why do I believe in that kind of a thing where it was, and it was really that stark, you know what I mean? It was really like, I just, I don't feel God. I can't see God. I can't hear God. So like, what says that God exists kind of a, you know what I mean? So I think that that's really kind of where, where that, that kind of break started was me exploring, like, I was, and I still am, which a lot of people are like, that's weird of you that you're a Christian now, because I know who you are. And I'm like, yeah, but like, but listen to them, right? There was no, you know, in my head, there was like no evidence for it. And I'm still like a very scientifically based person. i'm still very logical about stuff um and at that point in my life i was

like i just i can't justify this you know so i think that's really what happened um and in in the occult and stuff so when i started getting into the occult and all that it kind of was like still in my head a very science-based thing because I was like oh the vibrations of this stone are you know it was like a very metaphysical thing but in my head it was still like it's it's justifiable because it's science you know is that I know that's weird but that's kind of my my mental state like where it was what are some things you think the church at least in your experience failed to do that just pushed you away from christianity at that point um so the immediate two things that come to mind are like acceptance of not not complete acceptance because we're not we're not about that right um but

acceptance of just like who a person is like their personality you know it's like i've always been that person that's like really into like kind of dark and macabre and like you know what i'm i am not i don't glorify death but i'm fascinated fascinated with it, you know, cause I've never, that's like one thing I've never done is died, you know? So I'm just like, so I'm intrigued by, you know? Um, and I've, I've always, I've, I've worn a lot of like, I wear dark clothing and like, I look a lot gothic a lot. Um, and a lot of, a lot of Christians kind of look at the, the outer of a person and go, well, you're probably not who we want here. Right. Like you're scary. You make us uncomfortable. Like we're we're kind of and I and I am going to say some probably controversial stuff right now.

But a lot of what what I grew up with was a lot of just unnecessary judgment from from people and i i still find that like if you go on my instagram like you're gonna still see like i get judged a lot by people right and most of the comments and stuff that i do get on my videos are people like thank you for bringing this up like we need to talk about this as the body like we need to talk about this because you're pushing people away um so that's like the first thing would be okay just you know judgment right um and the second thing was i wasn't really like allowed to ask questions so uh it was more of a hey why do we believe this or if god can do this, why does this happen? Or, you know, just like kind of just questions that like anybody would ask.

And like the difficult questions, right? So like, why are there so many starving children in the world if God is like a benevolent God? That's a great question. Yeah. But, you know, and instead of being like, well, you know, here's the actual reason for that. You know, we have free will.

And like, you also are called to help these people. And if you're not called, you're not helping, then you know here's the actual reason for that you know we have we have free will and like you also are called to help these people and if you're not called you're not helping then you're part of the problem but it's i was just kind of told to just like for a lack of a better term like sit down and shut up kind of a thing because we we don't we don't want you to ask those questions because we don't really know the either we don't know the answer we don't like the answer um or you just it's not your place to ask because you know we we walk by faith you don't have to have the answer but the answer is comforting for a lot of people and the answer you know the answer is what solidifies people in that faith. So those, those are two great answers. And I hear that a lot from people who go through periods

of doubt and leave the faith. Some come back and some don't. Now you mentioned your mom, do you have siblings? Was your father in the picture? What was your family like as you were growing up yeah so as i i do have a younger brother uh he's like two ish years uh younger than me um and i have a dad he is my father but he's also my dad uh he has been with us like the whole time we have a very close-knit family structure which i'm very blessed to have um growing up we the three of us so like my mom and my brother and i would always go to church and my dad um uh had a still does because he's nuts he'll never stop um but he has

a job that's kind of like high demand um very demanding of him so he never went to church really with us as kids he went on like easter and christmas you know and like he was there for like you know like uh my christening when i was a baby you know with the catholic faith and he was there for like my first communion and like the big important stuff um he was there um and i'm pretty sure because we've had conversations i'm pretty sure that he is he's agnostic i'm praying for him we're working on him okay so okay we're we're slowly but surely we're working on him um but yeah and then i do have um my mom's sister one of her sisters passed away in 2012 but her other sister um is my uh my, uh, my aunt is just, I don't,

she's not my aunt. Like she's, we're closer than that. I don't know. She's an amazing person and she is a big believer as well. Um, and she would even like go to church with us sometimes. So. Gotcha. So your mom, you described her as a very just avid, committedian that rubbed off on you how did she respond and how did you tell her when you first when you started questioning christianity started leaving it exploring some of these other faiths yeah um that's it that's weird to go back and remember um and i might i might start crying right now and i'm so sorry um but it was it was really hard on her right because she knew like if i would have stayed down that path like she knew what the outcome was and like i didn't because i didn't believe it you know like i was like i'm not going to the hell that you know you claimed it and even i think hell is like a

different thing it's not like byron brimstone in my head it's like a different thing but um she she was more i love my mother i love my mother dearly i really do this is just me being honest right now she was very much like i'm instead of being like kind of understanding and curious and let's have a conversation, she just kind of like put the fear of God in you instead. Okay, okay. So yeah, it was kind of one of those. And so when I came out as like a witch to her, she was like, I want you out of the house. Like, I don't want anything witchcrafty.

You take your cards, you take your crystals, you take everything. I don't want anything witchcrafty. You take your cards, you take your crystals, you take everything. I don't want anything in my house. And I remember like a conversation, not really a conversation. It was like a big argument where we were like yelling at each other. And this is like back when I was like in college, like just fresh out of college. And I remember, you know, me being like, well like well you know if you want everything wiccan or pagan out of your house then that means me too and it was just like a big thing and at that point i didn't care because i was like a very young adult and just didn't care about anything as you

know a lot of young adults do and then they realize later that it's a little too late and you know the damage is done but um that's kind of you know what happened and then i was like hey i need to talk to you like i'm a satanist and that went that went over even better if you can you know um it was uh she she was she was devastated actually um and that's what that's one of the things like someone asked me on instagram like what's one of like the worst things about that you remember about like being a satanist and i was like disappointing my mom like that was because yeah she was she was like devastated to find out that i had like completely taken like a 180 away from christ and

like i basically like in her eyes and and it's and it's true right like i had damned myself is is basically like her whole vision of it um yeah she didn't she didn't take it very well well as a parent i can understand how devastating that would be to have your child you know say something like that so i i i get it when you say you it seems like at first you were describing yourself as kind of wiccan and a witch i've interviewed an ex-psychic and two ex-witches. One was an ex-teen witch. One was a fifth generation witch from down in South America. All three of them believers. Just intriguing stories. But they made a distinction between kind of like white magic, black magic, white witch,

black witch. What does it mean when you say you're a witch? What did you do? How did you just what does it mean when you say you're a witch what did you do how did you practice that and why did you identify that way so it it took a lot it took a lot of forms right like the first thing was like very nature-based so i would i would have considered myself like a green witch and that's like one of the first conversations that i had with my mom was like here's what this means to me like here's what you know i'm actually doing and a lot of it was sitting in the woods and like meditating and like talking to mushrooms and like just like weird stuff right um and so that was basically it I didn't do like a whole lot of like spell work at that time um because I didn't feel it necessary right um and so after the green magic kind of phase um yeah after the green magic kind of phase i think there was a period of time where i was like

why do i want to touch a bible so i kind of my healing went like went back again and then never like found a church didn't really fit in with a lot of you know christian thinkers in my area um so i just kept like kind of going back and forth right um and at some point i became what i had considered a gray witch which was like you have like the distinction between like white and black magic right where like you know white white witches think like glinda from like the wizard of oz where they do magic but it's like all for good and it's that's like the intent and you're like it's love and light and like you know what i mean and then you have like the black magic which is like i don't know

like probably something from the blair witch project i i don't know i never practiced any black magic okay i've always been a very like kind-hearted person who doesn't believe that anybody should suffer regardless of whether or not you made someone else suffer like i've always been just like a very like i've never been like a malicious person or that like one time on the school bus, I squished a fly against the window and then cried about it for the rest of the day. Like, I'm, I'm not even joking. Like that's the kind of person, you know? Um, but there, there was a point where I was a practicing witch and a Satanist at the same time.

Right. So it was like, so I considered myself a satanic witch and this Satanist at the same time. Right. So it was like, so I considered myself a satanic witch and this was like back in like 2020. Right. Because we didn't have enough going on. I had to like do all this other crazy stuff in my life too. So at that point I was, I was like a Satanist and working at a metaphysical shop and a practicing witch that i considered myself a

um a satanic witch and i will say get what is this i hate this thing i have no idea that yeah it's like it's on apple it's like you do i just need to not talk with my hands because it does weird stuff um but But it was to the point where I was dangerously close to theistic Satanism. Like, dangerously close to where, like, I knew the names of demons. And I would, like, call upon the names of demons. You know what I mean? It was very like looking back on it now, it is super uncomfortable to like think about. And I'm amazed that I am where I am right now.

I hope that answers your question. Yeah, it does. Now, you just made a distinction I want to probe into a little bit more if you're comfortable. I never really thought about which one would be more dangerous, atheistic Satanism or theistic Satanism. Sounds like you're implying that theistic Satanism, because of the demonic forces, you said you were dangerously close to that. That concerns you a lot more yeah and and the reason for that right is because so when you're when you're atheistic there is there's an easier way for you to be like okay well this thing happened or I have this feeling or something happened in my life was that God right and and it kind of you have you're kind of a clean slate at that point

right if you're atheistic you're kind of a clean slate and you're like it's science baby like that's all there is to it when you are theistic and you're a theistic satanist you already normally like most most uh theistic satanists already believe in god but they don't side with him right so instead of being like that clean slate you just you have a bunch of like just like gunk all over that canvas and it's very difficult to wipe off. Like, like, and I will, I'll say that my life as a Satanist, like, was, was pretty, was pretty easy. My life as a Satanist was pretty easy. like not the moment but like for this conversation like the moment that i became baptized like you started getting like spiritually attacked all the time like all the time interesting okay well we'll unpack that a little bit you talked about what the church in your experience maybe failed to do allowing you to ask questions but also didn't feel like you belong because you were different what was the draw of entering into witchcraft and then entering into satanism

like why did you go that route in witchcraft right it really depends on your location and like where you are as to whether or not there is like a coven in your area, right? So like, I'm from Indiana, and I, you know, at the time, I still live in Indiana, but at the time was was living here, too. And didn't find like, a coven or anything, you know, that I could be part of. So it became a very individual type of thing where it really didn't matter what I was wearing or, you know, the things that I thought are like my personality or anything. It really just kind of all kind of boiled down to like, what did I want to do at that time? And it was just all on me. And then things kind of spiraled. Right. And then when I found when I found found tst i was like looking at like you know

all these like pictures of people and like reading all this stuff from them and like watch like they have a documentary out and was you know watched all this and i was like these people look like me right like these are the people that also like the macabre and these they also wear black and you know like i feel like I can be myself around these guys and not get like, you know, judged for it. And that's kind of exactly what happened is when I when I found TST and became a member and stuff, you know, and like, we all became like kind of a close knit group of people. They were incredibly welcoming, and incredibly kind. And like, and I'll even say like, as a Christian, like some of these people are some of the kindest, I'm not saying they're nice. There's

a difference between nice and kind, right? So they are kind people. Um, they just, they're just in it for the wrong reason. You know what I mean? So that's, I think to answer your question that that's kind of why that's kind of why yeah that that totally makes sense belonging and you identify with people and you feel at home and they have a cause so when you decided to not stay and become a christian did that kindness remain were they happy that you found your path or had you betrayed the cause and now we're an outsider and we're no longer welcome? That people are often shocked by the answer to that. And they are, they were, they are very like, Hey man, you do you kind of a thing, right?

They were very like understanding about it because there was a point, right? Where like, and I even used to be like on, we have like a small team of people that would like actually put together rituals for our chapter. And I was a part of that team that even, you know, was like working on the rituals and stuff.

And I just kind of like i kind of just ghosted them for a little bit as i was trying to like work on stuff because at this time um like during yeah like during this time of my time in tst um my my mom had started to have symptoms and stuff. Okay. So that kind of was a catalyst in really getting me out. And they, once I was out, you know, and once I have like, I still have people on Facebook that are like, we're like friends on Facebook, that we don't really interact a whole lot, but I had, you know, someone, um, I had posted my testimony on Facebook and one of the, you know, people that I knew from TST had commented and was just like, Hey girl, I'm glad that you found your place. And I wish you all the best kind of, you know, it was, it was really cool. Cause I,

I definitely, I definitely wasn't expecting that. But then again, knowing the people that they are, it makes total sense. You know, it's interesting that the Christians did not respond well when you were in the fold, obviously. And then many of the Satanists treated you well, even when you left. You know, that's something we obviously need to do a lot better at. That's for sure. Now, help me understand one thing I'm just not sure that I understand. You're talking about being in an atheistic version of Satanism and yet doing rituals.

I mean, are they basically a science experiment? Are they just, what do they do? Help someone from the outside understand. rituals that they do are very like um as far as i know it things could have changed because i haven't i haven't been sure there since like 2021 like early 2021 um but at the time i know all of our rituals that we did were basically like there there weren't any that were solidified throughout the whole i'm gonna say it i'm not gonna say religion i'm gonna say organization right um so everything was kind of very local and kind of on an individual basis um ah i just remembered they actually do have one as far as i know as far as i remember one ritual that is um like organization-wide and it is an abortion ritual so oh my goodness there's that i just remembered that um holy cow yeah that's

um but like the the stuff that we used to do was a lot of like mind theater, right? To where like we not to divulge too much about that, right? Because, you know, for whatever purpose. But one of the rituals that we had actually like written was basically the skinny of it was like taking something, you know, that you wanted to like remove out of your life be it like a feeling or a illness or just a thought that you keep having or like something that you want to remove and just lift a burden off and you write it on a piece of paper and you burn it kind of you know very symbolic um okay like like i said just kind of mind theater as kind of like a psychological way to visually and physically remove stuff from your life right um we never did i can say i never did um with uh with anybody else so it wasn't like a structured thing. We never did any like blood ritual

sacrifice stuff. Right. But there was a time where I had individually started doing like, like rituals with with blood as a way to like remove things from, you know, like I we're all human and we go through a lot of stuff and some people have very difficult ways of processing right and so that was one of my ways of processing but it was never like a an ode to you know the devil or it was never like here this is for you kind of a thing it was like this is me removing this from myself so that makes sense now i do remember this ritual now looking on the website and i don't have it in front of me but i remember there was just so much talk about my body and my choice everything is individual

everything is individual so even a ritual like you know an abortion ritual i would argue is satanic on one level but you're not calling up satans and demons and doing a seance so that issue is so dividing in our culture in the sense of like autonomy and individualism why would it be an abortion ritual? Like why that one that they would push so hard? Is it because those on the other side are saying, no, there's restrictions on what you can do with your body and the unborn is life. And this is a way of just sticking it to him saying, nope, not only do we believe this,

we're going to practice it together as a ritual like am i misrepresented or do you think that's fair um so it's it's to my knowledge right it wasn't something or i guess it isn't something where the actual act takes place like in a ritual setting it's more like um as far as i understand it's a way to it's a way for the the woman to process what's actually happening by justifying it saying this is my body this is my choice this is my life like everything is me me me and satanism like that's the one thing that satanism is is like i reject all forms of authority like if i want to do this like i don't care and like how how you know jesus says well if they if they strike one cheek then turn the other right like just got it what you know it is satanism means to pervert everything that christ stood for and

to pervert everything that christianity is um so they instead would instead of saying well if someone yells at you bless them right like like pray for your enemies right they would say well if and i think i think if i remember right it's actually like in the Levian, um, the satanic Bible, but it says like, if a man wrongs, you destroy him. Wow. So, and like the word, I'm pretty sure it's like the word destroy. So it's very much like you do your thing and it doesn't matter what other people say. And it doesn't matter, you people say and it doesn't matter you know if you're hurting really anybody else and it doesn't meant like nothing

matters except for you and your experience so you seem to describe that you felt yourself connecting with these people and you belonged what are some of the stories of the other people that you met are these a lot of people coming out of religion as well like what are some of the other stories you recall of people that went to the satanic temple um a lot of them actually came from like or like western religion right so a lot of them came from christianity or like judaism or um but we did have others that were just like their whole family was atheistic like just growing up they were atheistic and then they found this and they were like man

this is like this is now like I have a group of people that I can be atheistic with because there's not like an atheist club of people you know at least to my knowledge you know where you can connect with other people I mean there probably is online or somewhere right but it's not it's not like you know a wide thing because people normally if you're an atheist you don't care that other people are atheistic you know um that's just kind of what most most of the people that i met there um had had come out of had come out of like christianity um or they were already atheistic that that makes sense really interesting that doesn't doesn't really surprise me that would be be some of their background now i'm actually i'm really curious you worked at this metaphysical shop I don't know that I've ever gone to a metaphysical shop.

What was that like? What did you do? What were the kind of people that came in? Oh, man. I don't know if I'm allowed to say half the stuff that I want to say. So walking in, it was very, very inviting, inviting very clean very like white and just very shiny right um it was kind of like a gift shop where there was just like you had like little figurines and stuff right they had um like you have embroidered blankets with like i love you mom and just like

kind of stuff like that right i think like half of it was kind of like a really nice hallmark um and the rest of it was like any different kind of crystal you could imagine um different types of like jewelry with crystals in it there were cauldrons there were spell books there's incense there's candles there's bells there's ointments and and resins and anything like powders and a lot of different herbs and like anything that you would need for like spell work you could find here um we also did have multiple psychics on staff, tarot readers on staff. Some of them were very legitimate and then others were absolute frauds and cold readers. And I, knowing now, right, I used to call myself an empath. I was like, oh, I'm an empath, you know, but now I just know that I've been given a gift of discernment

and I know what that is now, right? But there, yeah, we had people on staff that like were just taking people's money to give them comfort. And I was very against that. Yeah, it was interesting. So when you describe a psychic that was cold reading, which is just a trick versus

real psychics are you talking about those that really now as a christian look back and think we're tapping into demonic powers and could know things that they couldn't know like how do you interpret that looking back yeah so for for me right um and i can't really i can speak to i can speak to one individual who i will talk about um she has no idea that i'm actually even talking to you and she'll be thrilled um so uh i can speak to myself when i say that like i've had people you know at the shop come to me and be like you're an empath right like i other people told me, you know, that you know about stuff that's happened to them. Like, what do you get from me?

Or like, what can you tell me about me? And I'm like, well, I know that like, you've been very depressed and you've cried in your shower recently and they just break down, right? And so during that time, I'd be like, look at how empath I am, right? Like how special is this?

Like, I am awesome. and now i know that like yeah but that that was that was a gift that i was like using without knowing that it was like a gift because i can still kind of do that with people right like i can just i can tell if someone's like faking a smile you know like you could be the happiest person and like i know that something's up um so at that point like i know that that that was i didn't believe that it was coming from where i believe it's coming from now right um i there's a couple other people there that i do believe were like decently legitimate um but i'm not sure where they were getting like their, like what their resources were. Um, but one of my friends, we became good friends. We became fast friends. Um, and I, I still call her my sister. Um, but she was a theistic Satanist. Oh, wow. And she

openly, um, she would do like readings and, you know, would have different crystals out and all this stuff, you know, and I had multiple readings from her and every single thing that she said was accurate, like super accurate. my aunt was having like a lot of just just emotional issues so we were like let's go just talk to her and we did and a thing was said that i had no clue about so she could have not known there's no way that she could have known um and this whole thing was like true and there was like a whole thing about it um but she very openly was getting all of her information from demons. And I will interrupt myself for just a moment and say that like a day or two ago at 930 at night, I got a phone call from her and I was like, okay, like, what's going on, sis? Like, this is weird. why are you calling me and she told me that she got baptized in christ oh my goodness like just the other day that is incredible that is incredible she sent me her baptism video and her testimony and i just like lost it there's no way that that would have

happened if it wasn't spirit like if it was not the holy spirit moving in that girl there's no way that that would have happened if it wasn't spirit. Like if it was not the Holy Spirit moving in that girl, there's no way that, that she would have come out of that. That's, that's amazing. I love, I love to hear that. Now, how long were you, would you have described yourself as a Satanist? How long was that season for you? That was probably about two years. It was about two years. Okay. So then talk to me about now when you started to come out and you started to see holes in it. And then, so talk about that. And then we'll talk about what brought you into Christianity. I didn't see holes in it. Like that the thing. I was very solid, steadfast.

I am a Satanist. And the timeline kind of goes like, I'm an atheistic Satanist who just believes that when you die, your brain just stops working and your body is your body and you go back to the ground and like that's it right it just done right um and then we move on to okay well i'm still a satanist but i maybe i'm an agnostic ish satanist and maybe there's something else out there i don't know i've never died i can't tell you right um and then went into still a satanist right practicing

tst but also doing like witchcraft and ritual and all that stuff right um because for some reason like that was that was a comfort for me it was like something i was used to um and as this is happening my mom starts having like dementia type symptoms. Okay. And then this is where everything just like, this is the catalyst at that point. Okay. So she's going through that. Some people would experience that and start questioning God, hate God that he allowed

this to happen to their mom who was a Christian. How and why did it affect you differently? I, so at first it was like, I just don't know what's happening to her, right? And I, and I actually like, she called me over to the house, during her like the very beginning of her like onset of her symptoms actually called me over to the house like, hey, can you can you clear it? Because there's something in here with us because she was like hearing footsteps and she was hearing doors close and she we would later find out that she was hallucinating right but she had called me over and was like i need you to do whatever it is that you do with your with your spells and stuff because she was like panicking at that point right um so i did i went over and i did my thing and you know and she said that it stopped happening for a while and then it started happening again. And like, now we know why.

But at that point, I still didn't believe in God. But then I was like, kind of yelling at him as if he were there, you know, because I was angry. And this is like after this is kind of after she after she had passed away um so uh just briefly right um she started having symptoms in like july like june or july fast forward to like october um and she went into the hospital. And like they did countless tests on her. And we finally would find out that she had Creutzfeldt-Jakob's disease or CJD. It's a brain deterioration disease. And she passed away in December. And at that point, uh, during her like memorial, um, she, like I said, she was very Christian. So we were like, we're going to have a Christian memorial. We're going

to find a pastor. We're going to get someone out because it's what she would have wanted. Right. I was sitting there as a Satanist in my mom's funeral with the man that I was seeing at the time, also a Satanist, sitting there like, what is going on? And that just broke my brain because I was like, this is not, I don't know what's happening. I'm Satanist, this dude. And the pastor that we had asked to do her memorial was actually one of my high school friends that I was in theater with. And my mom was very active in theater. So she knew him. So I was like, this is perfect, right. For, for him to be doing her memorial. And I was at that point, so like just distraught. And then was like that thing that I told you about earlier where I'm like, pick up a Bible, right, was kind of coming back. But I was angry and I was hurt because like, why, if you are a benevolent God, right, if you love us so much, why would you take my mom the way that you did? Like, that was cruel, right? So I'm like angry and hurt in my head. And I bought a a bible i went to like a used bookstore and i bought a cheap bible

with the intention of reading it and highlighting every evil malicious thing that god did to humanity and everything that you know every every injustice towards women and all the slavery and just every bad thing in the bible which and i'm reading it and i'm highlighting stuff and circling stuff and eventually the circling stopped and the highlighting stopped and it backfired and i started having like actual questions about about jesus and god and like what does this all mean and like how like why does why did this happen or how did this happen so i reached out to my friend who was the pastor that did my mom's memorial and i was like hey man i i have some questions and he was gracious enough to meet with me and answer a lot of those well thank the lord he didn't respond

the way some early christians did and said just have faith and don't ask questions you're not welcome here I am Thank You John I love you man Hmm that's awesome. He loves you as a person took your question seriously now where did Evidence come into play in your journey because you in your testimony the short videos you did you seem to highlight that? I think it was the second video as being significant so how did that fit into where you're at in this stage in your life so that pastor that did my mom's memorial right he we met up at a park and he answered a lot of these questions and he sat with me as i cried about stuff, you know, and at the end of it, he was like, I'm, I'm going to recommend a book to you that I don't normally recommend to people. Cause it kind of reads like a textbook and it's not for everybody.

It's, you know, and, um, he's like, I normally don't recommend it, but like, because you're asking these really in like really involved questions i really think it'll be beneficial for you so he like told me what it was it was the new uh the new evidence that you know demands verdict and he like pulled it up on like amazon or whatever and he was like it's it's this one you should get this one or whichever one that he you know he was like i don't know if he knew that there was like a new version but he was like you should get this one it's like the revised one so i was like bet and like took a screen cap of it um and that's important and i'm so glad that i took a screen cap of it i'm so glad so boom took

a screen cap and was like i'll look this up later so i look it up later i go on like barnes and noble and like you know do that kind of thing and like no one in my local area has it because it's kind of like a niche thing you know in a lot of circles so i go on amazon and it's like you know like 36 40 bucks on amazon and in my in my satan brain i was like i'm not gonna spend 40 on a book that i will just collect dust right like it's just gonna sit i'll never read it i'll just sit i'll just sit there um but eight days later and i i just started like my new job is my first day on the job as like a field technician home home theater installation person with a tech company. And so I get in the truck and I go to buckle my seatbelt. And between the center console and my seat is literally that book, like the same edition that he had recommended, like down to everything and i just like froze and looked over at the guy who was training me and was just like not to be weird but is like is this yours you just like drive around with a copy

of new evidence just chilling out in your car and he kind of laughed a little and he was like no that's that's not mine like a client left that for another like another person like one of our you know staff and he didn't really want it so it's just kind of been sitting here ever since like you can take it if you want it so it is now sitting comfortably on my bookshelf in the bedroom uh that's amazing nuts i love it now you described reading some of that but just even the book aside take us to the part where you're like i'm no longer satanist because when you got this book you said i was a satanist didn't want to spend 36 whatever it was yeah to becoming a christian saying this makes sense i believe it yeah um well definitely that moment that I even saw that book there, like,

I am not a math person by any stretch of the imagination, right? So I went to a couple of my more mathematically inclined friends, and also to some AI chatbots, and was like, what are the actual odds of finding this particular but like any object it could have been any object right so here like my my logic is is like brain is trying to justify out of this somehow right but the actual number when you look at okay how many vehicles do we have in the fleet okay like no like 15 maybe 12 12 15 so we have 12 to 15 vehicles um could have been any person that day but it was that person that vehicle um that day right like that it was a book it could have been anything could have been like a half-eaten sandwich but no it was a book for it to be that book and that specific edition is just nuts to me

not to mention that it was literally eight days after i have been like eight has always been in like a huge number in my life right but it's also very significant like biblically so is like just it i couldn't i couldn't science my way out of that one you know that was the one thing that like i i couldn't justify out of it and finally i just kind of like gave up trying you know and was like all right like that was weird but i but i hear you now right i'm i'm listening so like what else do you have like i'm listening so i started like i pulled out my old bibles and i started reading um and i am very much i am less like gideon but still kind of very gideon-esque where i'm like uh you got anything else for me like i know i didn't don't i'm not trying to test you i'm really not and i thank you for everything that you've given

me but please like i just i need i just need something so I was walking around the backyard one day like maybe a month or so after that whole thing happened and was just like asking him to like send me a clover right like a four leaf clover it's not that hard people find them all the time so I just found a six leaf clover in the yard and I'd never seen one of those. And the odds of finding one of those are like very, very, very, very small too. So I was like, all right, this is weird. Like this one is just, this is weird. So just started doing more like research and started, you know, like I, you know, read obviously some of, know new evidence and it's it's just like a lot of my questions were like in in scripture when you know it says like well this

happened on this hour and this happened on this hour and there are two books right that are describing the same event but why do they say that they're at different times? Well, because they're using different calendars because they're, they were different cultures. Right. So it's very like a lot of the stuff, you know, made sense after that. And you have to really,

a lot of scripture, you really have to take into like the actual context of the time. You can't just like read it as, you know, as, as, you know, someone who lives in 2024 in the United States, you can't just read through the entire Bible and take it at face value. Like you have to really think about like, when was this written and by who, and what was their status and why are they actually writing this? And what was their, their goal are they actually writing this and what was their their goal of of writing this right um for it to for it to make sense and so i think a lot

of times when people you know read the bible like it it tends to kind of like a lot of really important stuff the stuff that like me as a satan, right, would argue against because I have like notebooks of like questions like that, right? That once you actually look at the historical context of it, it just completely like wipes away like all of those questions. And you're like, okay, well, like now this makes sense. So you're reading the Bible to find all the just bad things in it your heart starts to change you have the two coincidences that get your attention but you dive into the evidence and it starts to make sense to you what was the decision to get baptized and what was that like it just, it's hard to describe because it was just like,

it's like, it's like gravity, you know, like I can feel gravity now. Like anyone can feel gravity. Right. But you only feel it when you're paying attention to it. Right.

Like you don't think about it unless you're thinking about it. So for me, it was like, all right, well, you have my attention and I'm listening and I'm reading about this and I'm like pouring over stuff. Like I'm a big fan of like the Bible Project and like, you know, going into that and I, you you know listened to several different podcasts and stuff yeah and and it was just like now now that I'm listening I can hear you and now that I like am really paying attention to it I can feel your presence like and you're gonna have times like as a Christian right like recently if you if you looked at my like as a Christian, right? Like recently, if you, if you looked at my Instagram, you know that I'm in a bit of a valley right now. Um, but I've been in this valley before. And the only difference is, is it now I still like, I know that he's there, right?

I know that God exists before I was like, yeah, he probably exists, but I can't feel him so that must mean he's not there that's not true that just means that you can't feel him right now right so I think that you know as Christians like you're gonna have Valley moments my brain fell out I don't know where I was going with that that's that's totally okay you're just talking about certain challenges that you have right now and i was talking about when you chose to get baptized baptized that's right um it was yeah like i like i was saying it's kind of like i just i just knew you know like i said it's kind of like gravity it just i i finally felt it um i finally felt it and was like this is this is it like there's no other there's no other explanation for life there's no other explanation for you

know just anything existing like I'm I'm gonna do this so that so that people know like that that you don't have to be a certain way in order to be forgiven you don't have to be a certain way in order to believe in christ you don't have to look a certain way you don't have to talk a certain way i mean there's definitely some guidelines you know but sure you're not you're not like god doesn't hate you god doesn hate anybody. God is a benevolent and loving and forgiving God. Like, cause if he wasn't like, he would have just given up on me like years ago, but he never did. You know, he just kept poking and poking. And finally I started to listen and that's why I got baptized. So it was like,

I just, I need, I need to tell people this and i need people to like to see that this is like you can be forgiven like you can't have peace and like that's that's the biggest thing is i've now that i know god i've i used to have like a debilitating panic disorder and i used to be on like a lot of different medications and like xanax and all that stuff. And I haven't been on medication for years because I just, it's a peace and it's a comfort, you know, and kind of like I was saying, even now, you know, I'm in a valley right now where I'm not, you know, necessarily like on fire right now. You know, like a lot of Christians, like, well, we have those ebbs and flows. Sure. right now you know like a lot of christians like well we have those ebbs and flows sure but even in

the valley like you can you can still you can still believe right and i just that that's why i got baptized like i need people to know i want to make that public like proclamation that like no like this is this is a real thing i really appreciate your vulnerability your transparency and honesty sharing your story. You've done some short videos on this, but I didn't find anywhere where you had really gone into some more depth about this. So I know it's not always easy to revisit some of these experiences that you were talking about, but I know our listeners are just being encouraged and amazed and blessed at just this journey that you've been on, which is really about somebody looking to belong,

but also asking questions. And the church should be a place for both. That people are not going to be judged by the way that they dress, look differently. Come on in. We care about you. We love you. And we're going to take your questions seriously.

And I'm glad you've come full circle and found that. So I've been looking forward to this interview for a long time. Really appreciate you taking the time to come on and, and share your story, T. Thank you so much. I really, anytime that I can get on there and anytime that, you know, I can just, I can let people know that like, no, this is real. Like this is, this is coming from like an ex an ex Satanist. Like this is a real thing. And he loves you. And he's going to love you. And you're you're allowed to ask questions. You're allowed to

wear black lipstick. It's okay. You know, this doesn't matter. That doesn't matter. He matters. Amen. I love it. What's the best place people can follow you? Is it on Instagram? It is on Instagram now. So right now, my personal page is at the KMT, the KMT EPE. But we also are starting what we're calling maybe like a micro ministry at the Eighth Day Alliance. And that's basically a it's very small right now, but we do have a very small community of really awesome people who are born again believers and a lot of us are emo gothic alternative like we love christian metal music so that's you you found us i love that that

is super cool what a neat ministry that you're reaching out to using some of the hurt and pain that you went through in your life now to offer to people what you wish somebody could have offered to you a number of years ago. So may God bless those efforts and in due time, let's have another conversation. Thank you. I really appreciate you having me here. This has been a real joy. Now, folks watching, before you click away, make sure you hit subscribe. We've got some other stories coming up. As you can tell, we are trying hard to find people with just interesting, fascinating stories of just seeking truth, God's grace in their life, that God can bring literally people out of whatever background you could imagine and transform them.

As you've seen today, that's part of the goal. Make sure you hit subscribe so you don't miss any others. And if you've thought about studying apologetics in depth, we have a top-rated program at Biola Talbot School of Theology. We'd love to have you in the class. Information below. Check it out. It's fully online, fully distance, and it'd be a joy to have you. So check that out.

Again, Teep, thanks so much for coming on. Thank you so much that out again teep thanks so much for coming on thank you so much god bless