The Sean McDowell Show - Is the Middle East Setting the Stage for the End Times?

Episode Date: April 3, 2026

Is what’s happening in the Middle East connected to biblical prophecy? I'm sitting down with Mark Hitchcock to discuss the role of Iran (ancient Persia), Israel, and the end times. Together, we examine key passages from Daniel, Isaiah, and Ezekiel, consider whether events today could relate to Ezekiel 38, and talk about how to approach biblical prophecy with wisdom, clarity, and humility. *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [smdcertdisc] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

Looking for a simple way to stay rooted in God's Word every day? The Daily Bible Devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you connected with scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy Daily Bible trivia and humor, a fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your faith. Get the Daily Bible Devotion app for free on both iOS and Android. Start and end your day with God's Word. Search for the Daily Bible Devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store, download it today. Life Audio. People are very uptight about what's happening in our world today.

I mean, we live in a turbulent world with a lot of turmoil on all kinds of fronts. People are especially focused on the Middle East. People want to know about Israel and want to know what Israel's part is in the end times. You said this. You said we must always evaluate current events in light of the Bible and not the other way around. A lot of people go and look at events that are happening in our world today. Then they go try to find some passage. in the Bible where they can kind of maybe twist or distort in some way to kind of fit those events. You know, if the coming of Christ is near, then the world should begin to look like what the Bible says it's kind of look like in the end. Is the war in Iran part of the fulfillment of biblical

prophecy? What Old Testament prophecies may be in the process of present-day fulfillment? How concerned or confident should Christians be that we are approaching the end times? And how can we wisely discern our times through the lens of scripture. Our guest today graduated from law school in 1984, earned his Ph.D. at Dallas Theological Seminary in 2006, and has authored 15 books on end-time biblical prophecy. Dr. Mark Hitchcock, thanks for coming on the show. Well, thanks for having me, man. Great to be with you. Yeah, I'm super eager to jump in because you've just published a book that's called the Persian storm. Again, you've written 15 books on this. You've been teaching, you've been preaching, you've been writing for decades. Why this book now? Well, you know, people are very uptight

about what's happening in our world today. I mean, we live in a turbulent world with a lot of turmoil on all kinds of fronts. But I think, you know, people are especially focused on the Middle East. People want to know about Israel. They want to know what Israel's part is in the end times. You know, people are looking at this war with Iran. Iran's been a problem now for almost 50 years, you know, for the world. You've got Iran, you've got Russia, you've got all these different wars that are going on right now. And I think it's good to bring some biblical clarity to what's happening in our world. We don't know everything the future holds. The Bible doesn't tell us everything, but the Bible does tell us about certain events that will take place in the future.

And to me, it gives great comfort to know that God's in control and he's told us ahead of time, what's going to take place. So I hope that from this book, people can read the Bible and understand what's happening in our world today through the lens of the Word of God. And it'll give people comfort that God who predicted these things 2,500 years ago is in control. He's the one who's moving the chess pieces into place for his in-time drama of the ages. I love it. By the way, when I first got, your publisher sent me a copy of your book.

At first I thought, I don't know. We have never met before. I wasn't familiar with your work. Probably the same hesitancy some people had if they clicked on this video. It's like, oh, here's Sean goes. But then you said something. Of course, with your PhD, with your work at Dallas Theological Seminary, a sister school to Talbot where I'm at, you said this. You said, we must always evaluate current events in light of the Bible and not the other way around. What does that mean and how does that guide your research and approach to Iran today? Well, you know, we read the Bible and the Bible tells us a lot of things about the future. There's a lot of prophecies in the Bible that were about the future that are now past.

You know, they've already come to pass. But it tells us a lot of things about the end of days. And we want to look at events that are happening in our world today, though, through the Bible, not the other way around you. A lot of people go and look at events that are happening in our world today. and then they go try to find some passage in the Bible where they can kind of maybe twist or distort in some way to kind of fit those events. So we want to read the Bible.

What does the Bible say is going to happen in the future? And if the coming of Christ is near, then the world should begin to look like what the Bible says it's going to look like in the end. So God knows that we're thinking people. And if he tells us, hey, here's what it's going to look like as you get near the end. we begin to see it looking that way, then that's an indication to us that the coming of Christ could be very near. So we want to make sure we're not twisting the Bible to fit headlines. But it is amazing, though, today when you do read the Bible, how much what we see in our world

today is mirroring what we see in the Word of God. Yeah, I can't wait to get into that with you, some passages from Daniel, some passages from Ezekiel that I think are pretty stunning. but before we get there, I think it would be helpful for our audience to know some of your, say, religious and theological commitments or lenses through which you approach this question, because we all know there's probably no issue in the Bible that is more debated than the end times. So maybe explain a little bit what dispensationalism is and some of the theological lenses that you operate by. Well, first of all, you know, I believe the Bible's inspired. It's inerrant.

It's the word of God. When we read the Word of God, what the Bible says, God says. I believe we should take the Bible and interpret it in a literal or maybe sometimes people use the word normal method of interpretation. Now, that includes symbolism. We always use symbolism when we talk and use metaphors, but we understand those in the way that they were intended. But that's very important, and that's really kind of a linchpin of dispensationalism that you

mentioned, is we use a literal, normal method of. interpretation. But really dispensationalism, if you want to just kind of boil it down to its essence, is we believe there's a consistent distinction in the Bible between Israel and the church. That Israel and the church aren't the same. God has a program for Israel. God has a program for the church. And that those programs are not the same. That there are promises God made to, and this is important to ethnic territorial Israel. That's an ethnic group, but it's also a land that was promised. He made promises to them that he's going to literally fulfill. Those promises have not been transferred or taken over by the church and taken then from kind of a literal land that God promised and kind of

made into something symbolic like heaven or something else. We believe God has a literal future program for the Jewish people. So there's this consistent distinction within scripture between those two. That's so helpful. Right now I know people are thinking, wait a minute, I've got a hundred questions about Israel and why you hold this. That's going to have to be another show. If you're thinking, you know what, I want we to have Mark back to talk about that in some depth. Let us know. And that's a show we could potentially do.

But we're focused here on the question of is the war in Iran and events in the Middle East. Are they indicative of fulfilled prophecy in the end time? And what does the Bible say about this? Now, here's another question that could also take a society. but it would help frame this issue for a minute. You write in your book, The Persia Storm, you said the best estimates are that the Bible contains about 1,000 prophecies. Up to now, 500 of those have been literally precisely fulfilled.

Before we get to some of the prophecies about Persia, can you give us maybe two or three examples of what you're talking about and why it matters that we can recognize certain fulfilled prophecies? Well, you know, there were 33 prophecies fulfilled in the last 24 hours of Jesus' life on the earth. That's incredibly. You think about all these prophecies, 30 pieces of silver, you know, his betrayal, you're being crucified between two thieves. I mean, you know, all these prophecies from the Old Testament, between two criminals, you know, he's crucified. So it's just all kinds of prophecies like that.

You know, prophecies from the past, one will talk about, I think, later related to Persia, Cyrus. You know, Cyrus, the Great, his name's a hundred years. before he's born, he's named and told what he's going to do, the destruction of the city of Nineveh in the book of Nahum, probably some 30, 40 years before that takes place. So just, you know, there are hundreds of prophecies in the Bible that have been fulfilled, which, you know, tells us, you know, the Bible has a really good track record. It's 100% accurate, 100% of the time. So we can know then that the prophecies that haven't been fulfilled are going to be literally fulfilled as well. You know, the prophecies of Jesus' first coming, he's born in Bethlehem. So I take that these

prophecies then of the return of the end times will be literally fulfilled as well. And that's an important point because, you know, a lot of people that take, a lot of Bible teachers that take all the first coming prophecies literally were fulfilled. They try to spiritualize a lot of the prophecies about the second coming. And I want to be consistent. Those were fulfilled literally. These future prophecies will be fulfilled literally as well. How much, what's your mindset when we look at these prophecies in terms of how much confidence we can have in their clarity. And I ask because a lot of the prophecies of Jesus, we look back now that he's done miracles, claimed we be God, risen from the grave. And then we look back at the Old Testament. Even some of his disciples look back. And then their

eyes are open and they see it. But they didn't quite see it moving forward. So how much confidence can we have in some of these prophecies moving forward, you think that we really understand what's going to take place? Well, you know, one big major prophecy is the regathering of the Jewish people to their land, you know, began in 1948. And really before that period of time, 100, 200 years ago, there were kind of people out there saying the Jews are going to be regathered to their land someday. You know, a lot of people would think, well, how's that ever going to happen? You know, it just seemed kind of, you know, unrealistic. But as you said, we can look now and see, You know, God brought that to pass.

And so a lot of those things that seem kind of just far away and maybe somewhat unrealistic, people that believe the Bible, though, they said, this is going to happen because the Bible says it's going to happen. Charles Spurgeon believed that. Spurgeon, the great preacher in the 1800s. There's going to be a regathering of the Jewish people, and he would make comments, I don't know how it's going to happen. I don't see how it could possibly happen. But the Bible says it will take place, so I believe that.

So a lot of the things we see happening today, even a generation or two ago, could have never imagined. I mean, you think about the globalism now that we have with, you know, with satellite technology, with computers now with AI and with quantum computing, with all these various kinds of things. People even, you know, a few decades ago couldn't see how the world could be, you know, back and together, like at the Tower of Babel, kind of everybody together, everybody being able to communicate one person can really, you know, get a hold of the levers of power and really could control the whole world like the Bible says that the Antichrist will do. So a lot of these things as they develop, we can see how they're going to be fulfilled, but we can know they're going to be fulfilled,

you know, because the Bible says they will, even if we can't see all the details yet. But, you know, the picture's becoming clear. I like to, you know, it's kind of like putting together a puzzle. You know, the goal is to make it look like the picture on the top of the box. And more and more today, the puzzle pieces are coming together. And our world today is beginning to look more and more like the picture on top of the box, I believe. Okay, good. We're going to get to that picture on the top of the box that the Bible paints, but it is remarkable. That fulfillment of prophecy of the regathering of Israel 1948, my dad was alive during that. He was born in 1939. And of course, I don't think he remembers that. I've never asked him that question. But if that happened in the lifetime of people that we know

today, it raises, and that was prophesied hundreds of years ago, even more, that raised. That raises the fair question, could there be other prophecies fulfilled in the present day within our lifetime as well? And that's what you're asking. So we're going to get in a minute to the prophecies that may be being fulfilled about Iran and Persia today. But let's first look back as a whole. What is like Persia's place in God's story? How do we see it appear? And what role does it play as we look back in the Old Testament. Well, in Daniel, the book of Daniel talks a lot about the Persian Empire. Daniel chapter 2, Nebuchadnezzar has this nightmare.

He sees this image, head of gold, chest and arms of silver, belly and thighs of bronze, the legs of iron, the feet of iron and clay. And Daniel tells Nebuchadnezzar, you're the head of gold with the Babylon. And then he says, after you, they'll come another kingdom. We know that Babylon was overtaken by the Medo-Persians in October of 530. B.C. Then Persia gave way to Greece, Greece gave way to Rome. But it's pictured there as the silver kingdom. Then you go to chapter 7. The same empires are pictured as four wild beasts. And the Persian empires pictured as a bear with three ribs in its mouth. And we know that they

conquered Egypt and Babylon and the Lydians in Turkey. So it's a picture of what Persia did in history. Then you go to chapter 8 of Daniel and you have Persia pictured there as a ram that's conquered by goat that pictures the Greek empire of Alexander the Great. So there's a lot there about the Persian empire and their rise to power. And of course, one of the great prophecies in the Bible is about King Cyrus, who was a Persian king, who when Babylon's conquered in 539 BC, he allows the Jewish people to go back to their land and rebuild their temple in 538 BC. Very important event, I mean, history that Persia played a key role in. That's really, really helpful.

So one question I think to be helpful to clarify is the word Iran doesn't appear in the Bible. In some ways, this is similar to the claim like, well, the word Trinity doesn't appear in the Bible. And I said, well, that's irrelevant. The question is, does the Bible teach the doctrine of what we call the Trinity? Now, of course, we're not talking about a doctrine here. We're talking about a nation.

And in many ways in the Old Testament, they didn't even have kind of the modern understanding of nation states and borders in the way that we do today. So how can we have confidence that some of these promises in the Old Testament to Persia would map on to modern day Iran? Well, Persia, the word Persia, Persians, you know, Persian, there's 36 times that occurs in the Bible. And 35 of those have been fulfilled. They're related to past events. There's really only one of its future, and it's Ezekiel 38, verse 5, where Persia is mentioned with a group of nations that come against Israel when Israel's been regathered to their land. That's the previous chapter, Ezekiel 37, and they gather with these other nations, and they

come against the land of Israel. So what I see, and we'll talk about this in more detail, but in Ezekiel 38, verses 1 through 6, we have 10 different proper names that are mentioned there. And what I think we need to do is look for the modern counterparts for those nations. So the names of those nations may change many times throughout the millennia. Need a daily spark of hope and direction? Let the Daily Bible app from Salem Media be that spark. This free Android app delivers an uplifting verse each morning,

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Search for Daily Bible app on Google Play and begin your day with hope, purpose, and peace. We're going to look at in the end times, what is the place that occupies the position of ancient Persia? And the name Persia was just changed to Iran in March of 1935. and it became the Islamic Republic of Iran in 1979. So there's a clear connection there between modern day Iran and Persia. Iranians today call themselves Persians.

They don't like to be called Arabs. They're not Arabs. They don't speak Arabic. They speak Farsi. So they identify themselves today as Persians. That's a really helpful way to do it. The question is not, does the land of Persia map on identically to Iran today? I think the question is, does it sufficiently map on?

And so the promises in the Old Testament would continue to apply today. And you think about when these books are written hundreds of years before the time of Christ to a different audience, they needed to make sense then. And they also need to make sense today. So I think that's a fair way of approaching it. Okay. Now, you might have somewhat answered this. But before we get to the promises still pending for Persia,

Can you clarify some of the prophecy specifically about Persian Iran? And you mentioned in your book, Daniel, 2, 7, and 8. Yes, on Daniel chapter 2, it tells us that Iran is going to be, or Persia was going to be the nation that overtook the Babylonians. It would be the nation that would follow Babylon. And really, the reason these nations are being laid out there in Daniel in the book of Daniel is these are the nations that are going to rule over the people of Israel. They're connected to Israel. So they follow Babylon in chapter two as the silver overtaking the gold. I mean, chapter seven, it's the bear that conquers the lion.

The lion there pictures Babylon. The second is this bear. And then in chapter eight, Persia there is a ram that's conquered by this goat, which pictures the empire of Alexander the Great, which is fascinating, very specific prophecy there. So all these past prophecies about Persia literally came true. So if there's a future prophecy, if there's a prophecy about Persia that hasn't happened yet in Ezekiel 38, verse 5, then we can have confidence that that will be fulfilled as well. And it says in Ezekiel 38 that it's going to happen in the latter years or the last days.

This is really important because I gave a talk at my local church on Revelation 22 about, is Jesus coming soon, which are some of the last words in the Bible. I said, it's been 2,000 years. How do I have any confidence of this? Well, because he came once. He rose from the grave. He fulfilled prophecy. And so I can have confidence in the words going forward for the future.

You're making the same point here that there's specific prophecies fulfilled from the book of Daniel. That gives us confidence moving forward in those in Daniel and Ezekiel that have not been fulfilled yet. Now, I know some of my critics right now are like, wait a minute, but Daniel was written after. that is not a debate we're entering into right now. I recognize that's a scholarly debate for another time. In fact, I haven't covered that on my channel. If some of you're like, you want me to weigh into that, put a comment here and we have some experts at Talbot that I could bring in. That is a conversation for another day. Now, you also talk about Isaiah 44 prophecy. So before we jump into Ezekiel 38, what prophecy is there in Isaiah that contributes to the role of Persia? Well, Isaiah 44 and Isaiah 45 mentioned, as I said earlier, Cyrus. Cyrus was probably born around 570, maybe around 600 BC. But Isaiah is a prophet who's writing about 700 BC. So he's writing in 700 BC, and he names Cyrus as the king

who's going to allow the Jewish people to go back and rebuild their temple. Now, think about this. In 700 BC, the temple's still standing. The temple's not destroyed till 586, about 100 years after Isaiah writes. And he's already saying there's someone who's going to allow you to go back and rebuild it. And he's given, his name is given. That's why, you know, critical scholars will say that, well, Isaiah didn't really write this. So this was someone after Isaiah because they have a bias against the inspiration of the Bible.

They have a, you know, a scholarly bias that, you know, anyone could predict the future. And of course, we would agree, no human can. That's right. It's one of the great prophecies in all of Scripture. Really, it's interesting today. A lot of people look back to that today and point out how the Iranian people and the Jewish people, going all the way back to Cyrus, had a great relationship with one another. And really did up until 1979, you know, with the Islamic Revolution.

So a lot of people today point back to that of kind of this, you know, alliance between Jews and Persians and what Cyrus did in his kindness to the, you know, Jewish people. That's such an important point. And I guess I said we're getting Ezekiel 38 next, but I do I do have one more question. You highlight in your book and I loved this, that you are critical of the Iranian leadership and the worldview behind it, but you love the Iranian people. And Christians love the Iranian people. In fact, you point out, and I did a whole show on this with Hormoz Shariat, a former Muslim who's come to Christ and called kind of the Billy Graham of Iran about the number of Muslims and Iranians coming to Christ over the past 25 years

could be more than in the history of like Iran going all the way back to the time of Christ. So maybe talk just a minute about that background before we get into some of this prophecy. Well, there's a man out where I work out just saw him yesterday morning. He's from Iran. He's a Persian. And I just talked to him yesterday. And he was asking me about things going on. But he's a believer.

But, you know, we love the Iranian people. You know, so I always want to make clear when I write a book like this. I'm not against Iran. I don't hate Iran. I'm just trying to say what I think the Bible says will happen there in the future. But God, yes, is doing a great work and pouring out his spirit upon the Iranian people. You know, they're in darkness, spiritual darkness. You know, maybe in physical darkness here before long, you know, some depending on what all happens.

But it's, you know, the people, there have no hope. I think they've realized that their religion is dead, that it has no power, that it just leads to brutality. And they're looking for hope. And through all the means that the gospel is able to penetrate that country and so thankful for many people doing that, they're coming to Christ in incredible numbers. There's no way to really know for sure, because it's not an open society. But that would be like God to do that, though, to be penetrating into that darkness and using those times to bring many people to himself. So, you know, I never want anything that I say, you know, or teach in Bible prophecy to be, you know, anti-Arab or anti-Iran or whatever.

We love the people. The regime itself, that's the problem. It's a, you know, I think, you know, Joel Rosenberg calls it an apocalyptic genocidal death cult. And that's pretty descriptive, you know. But that's what the regime is there. And it's just like in Nazi Germany or other places. It's the regime that's driving everything. And I really appreciate your clarity that while you and I both believe there's a distinction

between the church and Israel, this is not Israel versus Iran where God favors Israel but doesn't have a plan for the people of Iran. The purpose going back to Genesis 12 was that Israel would be a blessing to all nations. And so you and I love all the Iranian people. We love our brothers and our sisters there, and they are just as much of a part of God's plan as anybody, and we want to be super clear on that. All right. So you start off in your book, and you really frame, like, this passage in Ezekiel 38 is huge and it's central. Can you give us a little background for those who maybe haven't read Ezekiel in a while? Who is Ezekiel? What's the big

picture of that book? And then we'll jump into chapter 38. Well, Ezekiel's a Hebrew prophet. He writes around 570 BC. So it's during the Babylonian captivity. Daniel's already been taken. in the first wave to go to Babylon. Ezekiel's taken in the second wave that's taken there. And he's riding around the time of the destruction of Jerusalem. He's got the first many chapters in his book. The first 24 chapters are kind of judgment against Judah. Chapter is 25 to 32.

He's talking about judgment on kind of these near nations around Judah. And then in chapter 33 is the pivot of the book because Jerusalem is destroyed. It's destroyed in 586. And so then after that, he begins to give prophecies of hope and restoration for the Jewish people. So, you know, kind of the bad news for them, the bad news for their near enemies. And now he's going to turn and give them hope for the future. And part of that hope for the future is they're going to be regathered to their land. And I think Ezekiel 37 is an end-time regathering.

That's what we've been seeing since 1948. And then he tells them, once you get gathered back there to your land, you're going to be at some point in time invaded by this coalition of nations. There's 10 of them mentioned there, and God will destroy this invading army. And then chapters 40 to 48 of Ezekiel talk about a temple that's never been built before. I think it's looking at the millennial reign of Christ. After this wars take place and Israel goes through this time of great trouble that God's going to bring about the restoration of the nation as he's promised really in all the prophets. This is really helpful.

So up until chapter 33 is the destruction of the temple, the punishment of Israel, and then it pivots towards promises into the future. And then four or five chapters later we get to Ezekiel 37, we get to Ezekiel 38, which has prophecy still pending. After that, we have one about the millennium, which of course is discussed in Revelation 20 as well. but let's focus in on Ezekiel 38, break that down force in the depth necessary to understand the prophecies that apply to Iran slash Persia today. Well, you know, as I mentioned earlier, I mean, obvious point. Ezekiel 38 comes after Ezekiel 37. Ezekiel 37 is the regathering of the Jewish people to their land from all over the world.

And that's what we see in process now. 6% of the Jews in the world were in Israel in 1948. now it's closing in on half. Almost half the Jews in the world live in Israel now. And it says when they're gathered, they're back to their land. There's going to be a leader. The Bible calls him Gog. And Gog is probably related to a word for darkness.

I don't think that's literally going to be his name, Gog. It's just a symbolic picture of this man. Now, he's not the Antichrist. The Antichrist is going to lead a Western Confederacy of nations, I believe. God will lead a northern confederacy of nations that come against Israel. So Gog's mentioned, says he's of the land of Magog, and it mentions nine places. He mentions, you know, Magog and Meshik and Tubal and Gomer and Togarma and Persia, Libya, or Sudan, Libya, and Putt.

So there's nine ancient places mentioned. But if you look at those places and again, see the counterparts on a modern-day map, it's Iran, and it's Russia. Four of the names have to do with modern Turkey, modern-day Turkey. and ancient putt is Libya and Kush is modern day Sudan. Well, other than Russia, these are all Islamic nations. And it's interesting because Ezekiel kind of mentions, many people have pointed out, kind of the outer ring,

kind of the far enemies of Israel. But it could include the nations within that outer ring as well, because in Ezekiel 386, after kind of giving all these specifics, he says, and many peoples with you. So it could be that he's kind of just given the specific outer ring, but it includes nations within that as well. You know, many of the other modern enemies of Israel inside of that. But it says that in the latter days, it calls it the last days, the latter years,

that when Israel's been regathered to their land, and it says they're going to be at rest and living securely, these nations, this coalition of nations, are going to come to Israel, and it says they're going to come upon them like a storm. In other words, they're going to try to wipe them off the face of the earth. and they're going to come seeking spoil. So there's some treasure, some spoil they're going to be seeking there. And they're going to come into the nation of Israel. And it's going to look like Israel's finished.

And they're going to come in. You can imagine just this massive horde of nations coming. And I think that Israel, when that happens, they're going to be at peace and living securely. I think that'll be the time of peace that they have with the coming Antichrist. The Antichrist, when he comes to power, is going to come on a platform of peace. We'll talk about this later, but I think the Abraham Accords and some of these things could be setting the stage for that. But Israel's got to be at peace and at rest and living securely when this invasion takes place. And we see a lot of war happening there now, but I think that's setting up for peace.

But then when all this happens, God is going to come and wipe these enemies out. It's like an Old Testament scene with fire and brimstone from heaven, with disease, with infighting. They're going to kill each other. it's going to be the worst case of death by friendly fire and military history. And they're going to be destroyed. And God is going to do that as a great vindication. And it says, then Israel is going to know that I'm God. I think that's going to be when there's a great turning of many of the people then in Israel

to put their faith and hope in their great God, Yahweh. I want to emphasize for people watching this. Like you said, this book was written roughly 2,500 years ago, even if we're like, okay, let's take late dating and push it back a few centuries, minimally a couple thousand years ago plus. And to be talking about Israel returning to the land which we've seen, the regathering that you describe, certain nations. I'm Kirby Kelly.

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I did a whole video on this. And ancient Babylon is like a graveyard today. It says there'll be jackals, owls, and hyenas there. And a friend of mine, Joel Kramer, went in modern-day Iraq and found jackals, hyenas, and owls there to this day. And it hasn't been rebuilt. If that's prophesied when Babylon is one of the more powerful nations on the earth, that's remarkable. So I pause for those who are like, I'm skeptical. I don't think this is true.

I just want to say maybe there are some fulfilled prophecies. Maybe reconsider if the Bible's true, we need to seriously look at this. Now, I do again appreciate that you're not starting with like headlines and going to the Bible and trying to find biblical passages that support this. You got your doctorate and theology have developed a theology you believe about the end times long before any of these events took place today, like October 7th, etc. Well, you do say, though, quote, Ezekiel's prophecy reads like today's headlines. What do you mean by that? Well, you got Israel back in the land, which obviously is really kind of the lynchpin for so many of these prophecies. Israel has to be in the land for these prophecies to be fulfilled.

But you've got these nations that are mentioned there. Again, Russia, you got Turkey, you've got Iran. these are kind of the three main enemies of Israel. Now, Turkey's kind of interesting because they're part of NATO. They're kind of the fly in the ointment a little bit now. But their allegiances clearly are with Muslim nations. And when the time comes, they're going to be part of this coalition. But we see this developing.

We see Russia at war with Ukraine. The aggression that we see there in Russia is exactly what we see is going to happen in the end times. Russia has been getting all. all these drones from Iran. They're sending airplanes to Iran. I mean, they're very close allies with one another. So again, I'm not, you know, going and trying to find some, you know, current event and and reading the Bible until you just read the Bible.

And it says, you know, Roche and Meshch and Tubal, you look at where these places were. That's these ancient nations. And it says it's going to happen in the latter years. It's going to happen in the last days. These things are coming together. And, you know, the whole focus of the world right now is on the Middle East. And that's just, that's amazing. I mean, you know, the terrorism is focused there.

A lot of the oil is there. Now, you know, other countries have a lot of oil as well. But, you know, the Strait of Hormuz, you know, all these different things that have been talked about. All of that is there. And the Bible tells us in the end that the Bible is going to be, that the Middle East is going to be the staging ground for these events of the end times. It's going to be the epicenter for these things. And the whole world is focused. They're the world's focus.

Every day you read any kind of, you know, news online. You're going to hear about Israel. you're going to hear about Iran, you're going to read about Turkey, you're going to read about Russia, you're going to read about these nations and all this ongoing conflict that's taking place there, and you're going to read about this constant yearning and clamoring for peace, for some kind of peace over there. And it's coming because the Bible says Israel is going to be at rest, living securely when this happens. So we see the nations aligning that this prophecy talks about.

We also see this yearning for peace that I think is going to take place in the not too distant future as well. I'm going to ask you in just second how this overlaps with the book of Revelation. You've answered this somewhat, I think, in some depth. But I want people watching knowing that actually Dr. Allen Holberg, who's a Revelation scholar today, teaches the classes at Talbot, on my Sunday difficult Bible passages series, we're starting this Sunday specifically asking questions like, what about the rapture, who is the Antichrist, the Millennium, Mark of the Beast,

So I will be weighing in with a scholar with these eight to 10 to 12 minute kind of short videos because people want to know about this. But in terms of the picture in Ezekiel 37 and 38, did we miss anything from the book of Revelation that's relevant to this picture that you're painting? Well, the book of Revelation, you know, the core of the book, chapter 6 through 19, are telling us about this time of trouble that's coming upon the world. The tribulation period. It's called the Day of the Lord. It's the time of Jacob's trouble in Ezekiel 30, Jeremiah 30, verse 7. It's a time of testing and tribulation for the nation of Israel. And Ezekiel 38 and 39 is not specifically mentioned in the book of Revelation, I don't believe. Now, it does mention Gog and Magog, which is mentioned in Ezekiel 38, but that's mentioned

all the way over in chapter 20. I think it's just kind of saying, look, we're going to have another, kind of another Gog and Magog at the end. So the book of Revelation doesn't mention everything that's mentioned, but clearly in the book of Revelation, when you get there, there's all kinds of wars that are taking place. The world's just going to be engulfed by that. And Ezekiel 38, 39, that war will be part of all of that. I think the main war that specifically mentioned in the book of Revelation is Armageddon, which is that, you know, culminating climactic conflict at the very end of the tribulation

that happens in conjunction with the coming of Jesus Christ. That's awesome. Okay, so let's shift. And you hinted at this a little bit earlier, but you spent some time in your book. Again, it's called the Persian Storm. What I love about it, Mark, is it's short in the sense, I don't know, about 150 pages. It's like the length of a more than a carpenter. You get right to the point. You make a biblical argument, but you tie it into certain modern events today. And as I read it, you're not saying this is necessarily biblical prophecy fulfillment. But this sure lines up, and we should be paying attention here. And you, You talk about October 7th and the Abraham Accords. How do those potentially fit in? And did I miss any other events taking place right now that we should tie in as well? You know, October 7th was kind of like a prophetic shift of gears almost. I mean, something changed. Because Israel then really had license to go and to basically obliterate Hamas.

Now, you know, those things are still ongoing. That hasn't all been settled. Sure. But, you know, Iran and then, you know, Israel has also gone and done a lot of destruction of Hezbollah. So, you know, Iran's being weakened. Iran's proxies are being weakened. All of this, I think it was a terrible, horrible event that happens on October 7th. 1,200, 1,200 Jewish people were killed, slaughtered there.

But I think that ultimately that's going to propel everything to a piece that's going to happen. And that'll be a temporary piece. It'll be a false piece. But it will be a piece because Israel now is going to be able, I think, to have these proxies of Iran neutralized. I mean, if Iran itself is weakened greatly. You know, they're the main source of all of this turmoil over there in that part of the world.

You know, Saudi Arabia, I think, really wants to become part of the Abraham Accords. You've got Bahrain and some of the other nations over there that have in these peace accord. with Israel. You've got Egypt. They've been at peace with Israel since 79, or at least not at war. Jordan since 1994. So these are all the enemies that used to, you know, attack Israel, the Assad regime has fallen in Syria. There's a new leadership there. Now, they're certainly not pro-Israel, but a lot of that just hardened animosity that was there for decades has been, has been relaxed a little bit. So what I see is, and again, I'm not a prophet or the son of a prophet, what I see from this is that I think all this war that we're seeing over there is eventually going

to play out to a time of unparalleled peace. And it's going to come through the Abraham Accords, through Saudi Arabia, some of these other nations getting on board. And that's what the Bible predicts. You know, while they are saying peace and safety, then sudden destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman. They will by no means escape. So I think all of this war and this conflict that's happened is paving the way you know president trump has the board of peace he's the head of this board of peace he's trying to get all these other leaders on board and you have to pay like a billion dollars you know to come and be a part of the board of peace and they're going to kind negotiate what happens in gaza and all this and i don't know what all will happen from that but just

the fact that we have something like that going on and the bible says that there's going to be a time of peace in the Middle East when these nations are going to attack Israel is the stage being set. These things aren't the fulfillment of Bible prophecies, but they're the setting of the stage for that. In other words, things are lining up to be fulfilled in the future. That's really good. That makes sense. I appreciate that distinction between them actually fulfilling prophecy and setting the stage

for the potential fulfillment of prophecy. That's great. What you said about October 7th, kind of shifting gears. with prophecy is really interesting. I went to Israel, I think it was 018 and 019 with a group of apologists. And we had a chance to meet with some military leaders. We had a tour from the person who really helped build the wall between Israel and West Bank, or the area of West Bank in Israel.

And there kind of was a sense my takeaway a little bit like we're kind of at a stalemate. And we've just got to kind of survive and keep them at bay was kind of my takeaway. and October 7th completely shifted that as far as we can tell. So you're right. The last three years, things have radically shifted and potentially ramped up. So if this is the beginning towards a fulfillment of prophecy, if what will happen to Israel? In fact, what will happen to Israel anyways, even if it's not in the near future and it's still another thousand years away? what do we know from the Word of God will happen to Israel and how they will prevail?

Well, I think, you know, that one of the things that's going to take place in Israel is there's going to be this treaty. There's going to be, you know, the Antichrist, Daniel 927. I take it after the rapture, seems to I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. I might think that the Antichrist is going to come on the world scene and he's going to come on a platform of peace. He's going to be a great peacemaker. And he's going to somehow guarantee a peace, I think, for Israel. Because Israel, then, it also says is going to have access to their. temple mount and they're going to carry out sacrifices there's some here's going to be a third temple a

rebuilt third temple there on the temple mount and so the antichrist is going to make some kind of a peace agreement i think he's going to bring peace to that part of the world and again it'll be a temporary peace because israel's going to be at rest and living securely when these nations invade so there's going to be Israel's going to have a treaty there's going to be a temple that's going to be rebuilt there's going to be this trap you know you could call it where ezekiel 38 and 39 happens then after that the Antichrist is going to come against Israel. And so then Israel is going to have a terrible time of persecution throughout this time of tribulation. And God's going to use that to purge and cleanse the people.

And at the return of Jesus, this is a beautiful prophecy. Yahweh says they're going to look upon me whom they pierced. They're going to mourn for him like one mourns for an only son. God's going to pour out a spirit of grace and supplication on them. There's going to be a national conversion of the Jewish people in the future that will go into the millennial kingdom, into the millennial reign of Jesus Christ. So there's a glorious future for the nation of Israel.

God's going to fulfill his covenancy made with Abraham for the land he's going to give to them, for a Davidic king, a son of David to rule over them. All that's going to be fulfilled. But Israel's going to have to go through a time of great trouble to get to that point in time to get to the kingdom. Do you see America playing a role in this? And if so, what role might it play? Well, you know, America is never mentioned in the Bible and Bible prophecy, America, United States. You know, a lot of people try to find America in different places. You know, some will say America is Babylon and, you know, Revelation 17 and 18. You know,

America is the 10 lost tribes of Israel. America is this unnamed nation back in Isaiah chapter 18 or the young lines of Tarshish and Ezekiel 38. A lot of different places people try to find America. To me, all of those are way too tenuous to try to draw some conclusion that that's America. So I don't think America's mentioned. Well, a lot of people say, well, you know, England's not mentioned and, you know, Brazil's not mentioned. And so, you know, the fact that we're not mentioned, you know, it shouldn't be a big deal.

But you think about this, though, if we are the nation that we are today when the end times arrived, you think that there would be some way that the Bible would allude to America because we're the most powerful nation politically, economically that's ever existed. And the Bible could have easily made some reference to this far away nation or whatever. We're not mentioned. And so, you know, people said, well, why aren't we mentioned? Well, you know, it could indicate that something happens to America to reduce us from our superpower status.

It could be economic implosion, you know, could be, God forbid, you know, nuclear explosion. here. It could be, you know, it could be just a, we fall from the corruption within, you know, kind of Romans one. But my view is it's the rapture. If you take even five to 10 percent of the people in America are believers, true believers, it's, you know, 30 million people plus it will be gone in a moment of time. And in America, those are a lot of leaders and a lot of key people in our country. And so it could be that the rapture is the event that kind of reduces America from from our superpower status and then we become part of, you know, maybe a, you know, a conglomeration of nations or part of Antichrist Empire or something like that.

But I think that America needs, at least from what we see now, will remain a powerful nation until the rapture because we're the main nation that backs Israel and the supports Israel. You think if we weren't here, Israel would be in big trouble, at least humanly speaking. So I think we'll remain a strong nationally. somewhat powerful until the rapture to be a defender and a helper for the nation of Israel. And then after the rapture takes place, the Antichrist is going to kind of move in and fulfill that. So I think America is not mentioned in prophecy. And I think that's actually significant.

I think the silence is important. That's really helpful. I appreciate that you don't overreach there and yet say this fits within my theology and what I think the Bible says. So here's my best reasoned assessment of. what might happen with America. I think that stated well. Now, I do want to ask you a last question in terms of how we should live in light of this. And I also don't want to steal the thunder from your book. But did we miss any pieces in terms of current event or biblical pieces that people should know

as we try to understand biblical prophecy and how it relates to Iran and Israel today? No, I don't think so. I mean, I think we've covered, you know, Israel's got to be regathered to their land. they've got to be at peace. We see those things, you know, the gatherings happen. The peace, you know, looks like it's on the way. We see this, you know, coalition of nations that are lining up. And so I'm Kirby Kelly. And in my new book, The Fabric of Hope, I want to walk you through seasons of suffering,

uncertainty, and waiting. And remind you of this truth. God is never absent and he is never far away. When life unravels, hope can feel impossible or out of reach. Maybe today you're feeling like things are falling apart and you're wondering if you can trust God's good plans for your life. But what if, even here, God is still working to create something beautiful. Through honest stories and encouragement, the fabric of hope invites you to see your story through a new lens, one where your hard seasons have purpose and your waiting isn't empty.

If you're longing for hope that will never unravel no matter what comes your way, the fabric of hope is for you. Find it wherever books are sold. These are the things that are that are in motion that we see today. Now, we don't know how long that we don't know how long it's going to take for the stage to get set. You know, God's setting the stage. I always like to say, you know, between now when the end times arrive, there's going to be a lot of twists and turns, but we see these things moving in that direction. But, you know, I think when we talk about, you know, how this should affect us today. You know, God, God told us these things. I don't think that he didn't tell us these things to scare us, but to prepare us. He didn't tell us this to make us, to make us anxious,

but to make us alert and aware to what's happening in our world. We know the Bible's true. These prophecies have been fulfilled, and we can know that the prophecies that haven't been fulfilled will be literally fulfilled as well. And if God orchestrated all those events to fulfill all those hundreds of prophecies in the past, he's orchestrating all these events to fulfill these prophecies of the future. God's in control. I mean, even though when we look at this world sometimes, it looks like a, you know, a truck, you know, going down a winding, you know, mountain road, you're out of control. We can know that there's someone who's at the wheel. And all these major geopolitical events and all these players, how God's brought them all into the right place at the right

time, gives us the confidence that God controls this world. And, and And I just always like to think of it like this in my own life. If God has the whole world in his hands, he has my world in his hands. Well said. My puny little life, if God can control all of those events on a geopolitical level, he can control the events in my life. He's got the whole world in his hands. He's got my world in his hands.

And that's a wonderful thought at night when we put our head on the pillow to go to sleep at night. God's got the world in his hands. He's got my world in his hands. and we can trust in him, we can rest in that, and then find peace and find comfort. And I don't know what people who don't know the Lord, how they live in this world today without just being filled with so much fear and anxiety. You've written 15 books on biblical prophecy. When was the first book that you wrote on that?

The first book I wrote was back in the early 90s when the Soviet Union fell. Wow. Yeah, it was over 30 years ago, about 32 years ago. the Soviet Union fell and Bible prophecy teachers had said for for long periods of time that that Ezekiel 38 was about the Soviet Union you know and these other nations and their kind of satellite nations invading Israel when the Soviet Union fell apart in 1991 a lot of people were saying we'll see they'll do what these prophecy teachers were teaching was not right so I went back and looked at Ezekiel 38 this is way back then and looked at these nations and looked

back at who what they are on their you know it wasn't it didn't have to be the soviet union it's russia for the nations that people often related to russia were actually in modern day turkey mishik and tubal it's not moscow and tibalsk these were places in turkey so i was kind of the first person i think i don't know of anybody else who've done that in 1994 that kind of identified these current nations that we see today as the ezekiel 38 players and so actually the breakup of the Soviet Union in many ways makes the fulfillment of that prophecy more likely rather than less likely. So it was a book called After the Empire back in 1994. That is remarkable that you were writing on that. And I just want to emphasize for our audience,

that's the importance of starting with the text, not starting with the Soviet Union, which was called the Great Evil for 70 years against America. Not starting there, but what does Ezekiel teach? What does Revelation teach? As best as we can tell. And then ask the question, do current events map onto this? Now, you were cautious back in the early 90s. What's your personal sense if I can ask? So you've been writing on prophecy three decades, 15 books. You described how October 7th kind of ratcheted things up. What's your personal sense of confidence that these events are matching up? Like, where are you at personally, having studied this 30 years and kind of feeling like, wait a minute, I'm seeing certain signs that really well could be preparing the way

for the end times? Well, you know, there's a book by John Lennox. He's an Oxford mathematician, wonderful Christian. And he's got a book on Revelation I read not long ago. And he made a great statement in there. He said, you know, we've often said that the Middle East is the focus of in time events. He says, I think maybe it's Silicon Valley. And that's interesting. I wouldn't agree with him totally. I still think the Middle East is the focus. But to me, the most staggering thing now that's moving forward is really technology. With AI and these things, it's almost like we're back to the Tower of Babel where God says, I'm going to scatter man all over the earth because nothing's going to be withheld from him.

It's almost like we're back there now where the things that people are coming up with, I mean, they're unbelievable, you know, the advances that people have in technology. And I guess for myself, there's just a sense in my own mind, how far can this stuff go till God will say enough? We've got to come and put an end to this. Again, I can't put a date on that or a time period on that, but it's a sense that I have that just how long and how far can man go with AI and transhumanism and all these things that are out there that are just mind boggling. I'm not a very, I don't know how to operate technology very well. I'm still back in the 1990s or whatever. So this stuff just boggles my mind.

But we see today all the tools of world domination that can be used by someone like the Antichrist. And we see all these nations lining up exactly the way the Bible says we should expect. And so I just think every believer, we need to live with a sense of the imminent return of Christ. And by imminent, we don't necessarily mean immediate, but we mean that it's going to happen at any moment of time. And that's,

the people say, when do you think Jesus is coming back? And my answer is he can come back today. That's the way we need to live. He can come back at any moment. And that should have a powerful effect on how we live. I love that. That's really well said.

I grew up in, I was born in 76, grew up in the 80s, and there was just so much end times hysteria that some of it really turned me off from just a sober assessment of the scriptures. But when I read your book, Mark, it was really a breath of fresh air.

There's like, okay, let's take the Bible seriously. Let's see what's going on. See if it maps on. See where it does. See where it doesn't. Not overstate things, but actually believe that the Bible tells us what's going to happen and take these things seriously. So your book is excellent.

I commend it to my viewers in the title. Again, to make sure it right is the Persian storm. It's out. Check it out. Can people follow you anywhere else if they want to kind of track with your thinking on this? Yeah, I've got a YouTube video that I do every week. So you just go to, you know, look at my name, Mark Hitchcock, YouTube. I do a YouTube every week called Marking the End Times.

And then just try to talk about things that are happening in our world that relate to Bible prophecy. And, you know, there are also, too, I've been going through doing an exposition of the book of Revelation there and answer questions. So that's a great thing that people can go find on YouTube, marking the end times. Very creative, by the way, marking the end. My daughter-in-law came up with that for me. Your daughter-in-law, that's a good daughter-in-law for that reason alone. Very creative. By the way, I've read Lennox's book and interviewed him once on his book on AI,

twice on his book on Revelation. It's actually one of them, I think it's almost 900,000 views about Jesus coming soon. It really just hit a chord with people because he's so smart and he's so gracious, and he just has a wonderful book on Revelation. So people want to follow up. Check out marking the end times by our guest, Mark Hitchcock, and those couple interviews I did with John Lennox. And look this Sunday, starting my difficult Bible series on Revelation with Dr.

Alan Holmberg, a New Testament scholar from Talbot where I teach. And while you're at it, make sure you hit subscribe because we've got some other shows coming up on artificial intelligence, on different religions, on the evidence for the Bible. Quite a few on near-death experiences coming up. You won't want to miss those. If you thought about studying apologetics, we would love to have you at Talibu School of Theology. We have in-person distance programs, information below. We also have a certificate program with some of the top apologists in the world where we will just walk you through lectures and basic training so you can learn how to do apologetics.

Mark, thanks so much for your time. Really enjoyed your book. And I got to say really quickly, you are now one of my favorite guests. And here's what I mean by this. I love interviewing doctors because they get to the point. They stay on track. And like with your lawyer background, you're just like, here's the point. Let's keep going.

The amount we covered in an hour or less than an hour was remarkable. So we'll definitely have you back. Thank you. Well, good. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. God bless you. Hey, friends.

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