The Sean McDowell Show - Lee Strobel REVEALS Behind the Scenes of "More Than A Carpenter"

Episode Date: February 21, 2025

More than a Carpenter has been printed in over 30 million copies worldwide in 120 languages. What is the story behind the origin of the book? Why has it been so influential. And what is unique about the recent updated version? Today, Lee Strobel puts me in the hot seat to unpack the fascinating story behind this mega best-seller: READ: More Than a Carpenter by Josh & Sean McDowell (https://amzn.to/3Baf5uo) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: @sean_mcdowell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org

More Than a Carpenter is one of the most widely read Christian books in history. My father, Josh McDowell, first published it in 1977, and he never dreamed it would have the worldwide impact it still has today. We decided to do an update, and there's no one better than Lee Strobel to help bring out the story behind the original book, as well as how and why it was updated today. As you know, Lee is a leading voice in the apologetics world and community and beyond. I've interviewed you a bunch on this channel and it hit me. I'm like, we've never flipped the script.

So the reins are yours. Help draw out the story behind this book. And thanks for coming on. I'm thrilled to do it. Thanks for asking me. I think it's a great idea. I genuinely have personal curiosity about this book because, as I'll describe it, it played a role in me coming to faith. So it's an important book in my life and so many others as well. And I'm such a fan of yours and what you do. I just think what you're doing with your podcast, with your YouTube ministry and so forth, your books, your scholarship, your teaching, your speaking has just been awesome. And I've been cheering you on behind the scenes and praying for you for years.

I'm thrilled that God is using you so powerfully in your generation. So what a great opportunity for me. And I want to start out by telling you a story. And that's a story about when I, like your dad, was an atheist, was a skeptic. And my wife became a Christian. That created all kinds of problems in our marriage. We're going back to the late 1970s, early 1980s. And so we're having all kinds of friction and difficulty in our marriage because she's living out her faith in Christ as best she can. I'm impeding her as much as I can. And the woman who led her to Christ in the movie they did in our life, The Case for Christ, it's

a different name. But in real life, she was a nurse who lived downstairs from us. And so one day Leslie was with her and her husband came in. Her husband was an engineer, strong Christian. And he said, you know, I know Lee's kind of a thinker, you know, journalism law. And he said, there's a book that came out recently called More Than a Carpenter. And it's a book about evidence for the faith. And I doubt if he'd read it, but maybe he would. And he gave a copy to my wife, Leslie, and said, why don't you see if he would read it? So Leslie ended up giving me the book.

And honestly, I wasn't interested. I put it on my shelf. I didn't read it for the longest time. I think it was months that went by, but I remember the day. It was a Sunday afternoon. I remember the day when I went into my bedroom and I picked up the book and I've been doing a lot of reading by then. I've been starting to read Bertrand Russell, the famous atheist from England and some Christian writers and so forth. And so I picked up the book and I remember reading it in my bedroom and it filled in some gaps for me and answered some questions I didn't even know I had. And we can maybe talk later about a couple of things specifically that it said that impacted me, but I remember closing the book and being so in awe of the evidence as portrayed in a simple, straightforward way

by your dad, Josh McDowell, that this book played a key role in me coming to faith in Christ. Yeah, there were a lot of other influences, but this answers some basic questions that I had that ended up opening the door for me to the possibility that Christianity is true. So my thanks goes to you and your dad for what you're doing now in amplifying the ministry of this book globally. And, you know, it's in 120 languages already. It's just it is a one of the most influential Christian books ever written.

So you must feel a great sense of pride and honor that you could participate in taking what your dad has done and working with him to create this new edition. I did. Well, before I jump into that, thanks for sharing that story. I had no idea because you obviously didn't interview my dad in The Case for Christ because you were interviewing scholars, not popularized. It makes total sense. I've't ask you to share that story or promote the book or bring that out at all. That's really humbling and encouraging. And I'll tell you, Lee, we did an update in 2009 on this book. And that was before I started my PhD. That was in 2010. But I had been teaching at that time for about five years.

I'd written some other books, had two masters. And my dad felt like I think I was at the point where I could really genuinely help him, not just as his son, but as a burgeoning scholar who understands the next generation. And that book, An Evidence Demands a Verdict, not only was it fun, but there was a certain weight that was like, man, God has used this book. I don't want to mess it up. How much do we change? How much do we not change? So it was like the height of different emotions coming together to really update this. And so this time was more like just knowing that it's probably one of the last projects we would do together was even more of a sense of like i just almost more than anything just want to honor

my dad with this and make it as good as it's ever been so i can just almost more like a son to a father was really a lot what motivated me in this version that's awesome you know this book it really did break new ground because going back back, when I started my investigation, there was very little out there on the popular level about apologetics. There was a book and is a book called Who Moved the Stone? Remember this one? Frank Morrison, that's actually a pen name for a journalist from England. And he investigates as a skeptic the evidence for the resurrection. This was published originally in 1930 and then updated in 1958. Ironically, I ended up writing the foreword to it many years later after

I came to faith. But, you know, back then nobody was doing this. And what I love the most about this book is not only is it packed with helpful information for spiritual seekers and to deepen the faith of believers, but also to move seekers closer to God. But it's a small volume. It's what, 155 pages and inexpensive. You can buy a bunch of these and give them away to friends and relatives and colleagues at work, fellow students, whoever, because it's cheap enough, expensive enough to spread around far and wide. I love that about it. And that was different back then.

Nobody was doing that back then, or very little anyway. So let me go back a bit. Let's talk a bit about your dad. Can I jump in on that a couple of things before we jump to a story? I think one of the big things that motivated my dad is I'm a professor first with a heart for evangelism. My dad is an evangelist first. And so he wrote Evidence That Demands a Verdict. And that was 1972.

And that's the big, massive scholarly text. People kept saying to him things like, oh, I wish I just had a quick volume I could read on an airplane for like two hours and so five years later in 1977 he sat down and just wrote this book on like yellow pads in at the McDonald's in in Chicago I think it was. Hours straight just penned it out. But what's amazing about that is now people are taking books with attention span, trying to go shorter and shorter and shorter. And it's like he saw this decades ahead of time that there was value in just a quick, short read with substance. And like on so many other things in his life was just ahead of the curb anticipating where things were going. So you're right. And by the way, really quickly, Greg Kokel wrote a piece

about how apologetics has shifted. And he said there was this first line of like, he called them like trailblazers, like C.S. Lewis, Francis Schaeffer, Geisler, Montgomery. And he threw my dad in there of people who were doing it when nobody else was. And that's what people miss today, just how trailblazing and fresh that was. It was for me back then. It was so refreshing because I was having to delve into these academic tomes that in many cases I wasn't prepared to even analyze because there was nothing, very little anyway, on the popular level. So he did. He introduced a whole new genre of apologetics literature.

I mean, let's face it, there's a whole genre. It's what I do with Case for Christ and others have done. We're just following in the footsteps of Josh. What was it that prompted him to sit down? Was it this idea that, okay, I've written the evidence that demands a verdict, that's a more in-depth treatment and so forth. Let's do this quick hit kind of book that can give people an overview of the relevant evidence. Yeah, that's right. Some of the story behind this is just so funny. When he first wrote evidence, no publisher wanted it, Lee. I mean, they're like, this won't sell.

People aren't interested in it. And he would just print out his notes for, I don't know, maybe cost a dollar back then and sell them and people would buy him in gangbusters. So he typed out, it took him a year himself, the first volume of Evidence Demands a Verdict. And I don't know, that one sold four or five million, whatever it is worldwide. And so that book was the research. Now, a lot of people put it on their shelf and pull it out with a chapter here and there. Although more people read it all the way through than you would think. People tell me that all the time.

I did. And you did too. A lot of people actually do, even though it wasn't even created for that. And over that five years, it was just comment after comment to him where people just said, I wish I had a quick flight. And they would often say it, or maybe he just remembered it this way because he would travel so much. Wish I could read it on a flight from like California to Dallas, like two or three hours

I could get through this. And so that prompted and finally just thought, like I said, he took, I don't know how many, like maybe a dozen of those eight by 11 kind of legal paths, which I know you used of all people. Oh yeah. And he was there with my mom and basically said, I'm going to go write this thing. However long it takes me until I'm done. And it took him hour after hour, first draft.

I wish they still had this draft. I would give anything for that hand-penned copy. I can't imagine it still exists. And he just wrote out the first draft, like a summary of evidence demands verdict. But what I think makes this book unique then, and even so powerful today, like yours, is you tell a story. It's your story as a journalist. Well, he started this book even then in 77 with his personal journey and search for Christ. And then through the different chapters, it would kind of be like, I talked to a professor here,

or this question was bothering me there. And so there's the story that goes through the book and it personalizes it. It makes it interesting. It's a journal. And then I think what's even more powerfully, it's crazy, in 2009, we added a piece that was not there in the beginning, which was the sexual abuse that my father experienced. Now, today, when we say that, almost anybody will say, oh, yeah, sure. No big deal. That was before the Me Too movement. Yeah.

Again, no one was sharing or talking about that. And he said, I'm going to make myself vulnerable. This is a part of my story. And then now where there's more abuse, there's more, you know, mental illness and hurt. It's like the story is that much more powerful people and they can relate to it in a way I don't think he ever even could have dreamed. Well, did he anticipate at all as he was sitting there writing this out longhand, which I can't imagine. Did he dream that it would have the impact that it did, or was he just doing it out of a sense of compulsion or leading from God to get this

accomplished? So the name Bob Beal, you might recognize, he is a leader behind the scenes who's influenced people like D. James Kennedy, Bill Bright, James Dobson, 80s, 90s, early 2000s, written some books, but he's kind of a leader guru and just had more influence than I think people realize through leaders. He made a statement to my dad years ago, like, hey, this has sold a million copies. And the point I got is my dad was like content and happy with that to a degree. And he's kind of like, I don't even think you've seen the beginning of the impact of this book. And he was completely right about that. Now, the funny thing is my dad is, I mean, he is so bigger than life and he dreams big. Sometimes I'm like, okay, let's go. And even this book, I don't think he

could have anticipated that. I mean, 120 languages. The updated cover says 16 million in print. That's only in English in North America. If you add international rights, see my dad uniquely kept all of the international rights to his books, not so they could sell them, but they could print them in Chinese and in Arabic and in Spanish and distribute them free around the world. So it's doubled what it says on the cover. I don't think he ever dreamed anything about examples like when Russia opened up in the early 90s.

I don't have the stats in front of me, but it was millions of copies of more than a carpenter in Russian. We would go personally hand out to people. So there's no way he dreamed that was going to happen two decades plus earlier sitting at McDonald's in Chicago. And what we'll never know until heaven is how many people read this book as a Christian and it deepened their faith. And then they gave it away and somebody else read it. And that person gave it away and somebody else read it. I suspect that every copy is probably read by three, four or five people. So you multiply that out and you get an impact that, you know, is so rare in the, in the publishing world that I'm not sure the average listener really understands how how

unusual um bizarre this is to have this kind of impact so uh it's just you can see the hand of god on this from the beginning i can imagine god's uh smiling as your dad is is scribbling this out in longhand hoping that somebody can read his handwriting. Oh, man. Well, now tell me, I know your dad in August turned 85. Yep. How's he doing? He's getting up there in the years now. And so many of us look up to him as a hero of the faith. And can you give us an update on how he's doing?

I'd be happy to. Yeah, he is 85. He was born in 1939. Wow. And he was the last child. And so his dad, actually I have the records. So my grandpa was actually born in 1898. Wow. It's crazy to think about. He was, I think, in his 50s or so, maybe when my dad was born, 40s or 50s. Wow. And so between you and me, Lee, my dad for probably two decades,

we've written a number of books together. We've spoken together. We've done interviews together. And this is one of two last things in ministry we probably did together. About a year ago, I did a final interview with him where I just thought of every conceivable question I want to ask. And I haven't published that yet. I'm going to at some point when he passes, just say my final conversation, you know,

on ministry with my dad. I think that'd be a special way to honor him, but I'm hanging on to that. This book was the last project we were able to really kind of work on together. And that's because he's, he announced in a letter this past summer that he has Alzheimer's, he's diagnosed with it. And so I don't fully understand the condition. I'm certainly not a medical doctor. Uh, his energy is lower than it was. Uh, you know, you see some of the memories start to slip. It's not late onset. We had him over for dinner the night before we were recording this last night. And, you know, we're still carrying on conversations,

but, you know, he forgets things. And the hardest part about that is I don't think I know anybody who had a better memory and more energy than my dad. I don't know how he did it, Lee. I think some of it was supernatural. I think it's the way he was wired. And so somebody you just love and he is my hero to just see that slipping away is humbling. But one other thing I'd say people ask is, I don't understand how it works, but Alzheimer's, I guess, can bring out different parts of your personality and change things. And, you know, that can happen. But I'm telling you, if anything, it's made him like more kind and more gracious than he's ever been. There's not an ounce of like bitterness or anger. You know, he and my mom, my mom's doing totally fine, basically looked at this and said, you know he and my mom my mom's doing totally fine basically looked at this and said you know

we've trusted god in different seasons of our life what does it look like to trust god in this season yeah and that's what they're doing so i guess i'm at the point where i'm just trying to treasure every time i counted them i think we had them over for dinner three or four times this week yeah they're at all the grandkids events. And, you know, we try to carry on conversations as we can. So I guess for someone who's 85 with Alzheimer's, he's doing as well as he can. But for anybody who's seen him in the past, like if you saw him in person now, you would certainly notice some significant changes. Yeah.

Well, I appreciate you sharing that. It gives us a way to pray for him and for your family and, um, and to thank God for what he has done, uh, through your dad and will do through this updated edition, which is going to probably resound around the planet, uh, another time, um, as more people are exposed to, uh, what he's produced there and you've helped them with so thanks for uh for the update um and we will pray for him and and uh you know I I hope you can pass on to him uh how um he's encouraged so many people I remember hearing him speak uh you know you talk about him being wired up differently he was wired 220.. Oh, man. And he was always had more energy than anybody in the room. And as you say, a sharp memory.

But as God has used him through his writings and speaking, I think he's probably going to use him in personal ways now in the family to encourage their grandkids and that sort of thing. So let me ask this. I noticed in the back of the book, I'm so glad you did this. You had a couple of letters, a couple of notes from people who were impacted by the book. And one of them struck me particularly. If I could read this, it says, I'm getting old too. So I gotta, I gotta see if I can see this. So there's more than a carpenter saved my dad's life. He stopped drinking and gave his heart to the Lord. Once all his kids saw the change in him, the peace and joy, we all wanted

it. And eventually all of us gave our hearts to the Lord. I mean, there's one story of one family impacted by this book. Are there stories that you've heard through the years that you particularly remember or have impacted you deeply? Oh, my goodness. Yeah. I, everywhere I go in the sense of every time I speak, and sometimes people just stop me randomly in the airport or wherever and tell me this. Every time, Lee, somebody says either they heard my dad speak in the 60s, 70s, 80s, whatever, or they'll say evidence demands verdict or more than a carpenter.

It's almost always one of those two. Did one of two things. Either help them hang on to their faith when they were going through a season of doubt. And this just happened yesterday. I was having lunch with a student at UCLA who graduated from Stanford, and he's doing the MD-PhD track in neuroscience. Brilliant. And he said, evidence demands verdict, in particular in that that case helped him hold on to his faith during a faith crisis at Stanford so in one sense everywhere I go and people always say they always say this they go I'm sure you've heard this a million times and honestly Lee every single time I cherish it so anybody watching this I want to hear and I enjoy it. I'm so proud of my dad.

But I can tell you, I guess now that you mentioned it, two pop out to me. I got off a flight in Dallas and I saw this big guy, about 220 pounds, maybe 6'3", 6'4", holding more than a carpenter on his chest like this as I walked off. And I'm looking at this guy going, he looks familiar, but I can't place him. So I walked up, I said, hey, my name's Sean McDowell. You're holding the book my dad and I wrote together. And it was Josh Hamilton, who's a former just incredible baseball player

who publicly just went through, you know, just some challenges spiritually and emotionally. He's holding the book right there and just talked about how he's reading it, how important it was, just kind of spiritually and emotionally. He's holding the book right there and just talked about how he's reading it, how important it was, just kind of a cool encounter. That's cool. Another one is the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of North Carolina.

We interviewed him on our podcast, but I met him when I was in North Carolina and he heard my dad speak in his 20s. And my dad gave him a copy of More Than a Car carpenter. And he said, Hey, read this and use your legal expertise and training and see if you think it's true. If not try to disprove it. And he was like, okay, ends up becoming a Christian. Now for, if I remember correctly, maybe 20 years, he's not just a justice. He's the chief justice of North Carolina. And he carries copies of the book and hands it out all the time. And when I met him in North Carolina, he brought the original copy,

which is one of the 1977 versions. We got to go to lunch and I was like so humbled. He asked me to sign. I'm like, are you kidding me? I didn't even help with that version. My dad actually wrote it in 1976. It came out in 77. I was born in 76. So it was like I had literally nothing to do with that version. But that story just stands out like, wow. And I mean, I could tell more stories, but those are two, just two of my favorite ones. Well, I love the legal angle. You know, one of the people that you mentioned in the book and your dad did, who was a hero of mine when I was in law school, which is Sir Lionel Lucku. And Sir Lionel was in the Guinness Book of World Records as the most successful lawyer in the

world. He won 245 murder trials in a row as a defense attorney and was a skeptic about the resurrection until somebody challenged him and said, Sir Lionel, you're the greatest lawyer in the world. Why don't you take that monumental legal skill and investigate the evidence for the resurrection? And he did that for several years. And your book actually quotes a quote that I've memorized because he's one of my heroes too. He said, I say unequivocally that the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof, which leaves absolutely no room for doubt. And that's the kind of stuff I read in the book as I was reading it back then.

That's, oh, wow, he knows about Sir Lionel Lucku. And ironically, I told that story at Saddleback Church there in Southern California one day. And a woman came up to me and said, oh, because I just moved there. And she said, oh, I'm your new neighbor. I live down the block from you. We haven't met yet. And I said, oh, it's good to meet you. She said, yeah, I'm Sir Lionel's sister. Oh, my goodness.

And she actually, we got together and she gave me some of his private papers that he had, where he had researched the evidence for the resurrection. And she confirmed that story. And, uh, but I was flipping through the book today and I thought, oh, Sir Lionel. Oh yeah. Who else but Josh McDowell would have known about Sir Lionel LeCoultre. That's a cool story. That's a really cool story. It's inspiring. He later was appointed the Supreme Court of his land. And that's one thing, the guy who gave me the book originally, Linda, the mentor of my wife spiritually, her husband, is an engineer. And I love engineers and lawyers and doctors and pharmacists who are so analytical

that you give them a book like this and you challenge them to read it and they read it, they can't ignore that this points in a direction that they have to at least investigate further. And so I think a lot of people who are thinkers and who, you know, aren't real emotional folks, but they deal with evidence and want to know what is true and what is not true. That's a prime audience for this book. So as you looked at this book, Sean, and as you say, it was revised. What was that? 2009 was that's right. Yeah.

Yeah. Sean, and as you say, it was revised, what was that, 2009 was the previous revision? That's right, yeah. I know that you have kept your pulse, since you're a much younger guy, on this next generation and what people are asking today versus back when I was investigating Christianity. How did you take that knowledge and say, how can I amplify this book for a new generation? That's a great question. One of the thoughts in the back of my mind was like, I only can change this book so much because there's a formula that works. And if I adapted too much, I'm going to lose that recipe, so to speak.

So there's a balance of like updating it it but keeping the core of what made this book special yeah I think here's the way I look at it I think there's timeless questions and I think there's timely questions that's good I like that so timely questions you know right now in culture questions of sexuality in particular are pressing to people. You might say science and faith or artificial intelligence and the soul. Those are like timely pressing questions that church needs to weigh into. But then there's timeless questions that people have always asked and always will ask. And you ask these in your books. Why is suffering is there life after death is there a god and a lot of these aren't just academic these are personal is there a a meaning to my life yeah is

there hope for me so this book is primarily on timeless questions now some of the timely ones like evil and suffering which is really both or sex abuse that comes out in my dad's story so it kind of touches on those but more than anything like we write we write in the book it's like how do i find happiness and meaning in life is it possible to know there's a god how can jesus be the only way these are not new questions right And so really what I did in this book is actually from the 2009 version, we expanded that about 10 or 20%. I made this book now shorter as far as I can tell than not only the 2009 version, but the original version. No kidding. Wow.

Yeah. I went through and I thought we need to streamline this as much as possible. So if there's ever two quotes and you don't really need to, I'm taking it out. If there's a longer explanation than we need, I'm taking it out. If there's an argument that goes longer and I have a newer, better, shorter argument, I'm putting it in. And some of that is because of attention spans. I wanted the most streamlined book as possible. The other change I made to this is I tried to make it more timeless, meaning if this is the last time we ever update this book, that it would outlive us in a way, hopefully like mere Christianity has just continued to be a timeless resource. Yeah. So there was a chapter in the 2009 version that I added. I only added one chapter and it was on the new atheists. Yeah. So they were big 2003 to like 2012.

So in 2009, like we felt like we had to address it. Yeah. Well, I wrote in there like when this book by Sam Harris came out in 2003 and this book by Dawkins 2006, and I went back reading it going, oh, I just dated this. Now two decades, it's going to feel out of touch. So I went through the book very, very carefully and just tried to make more timeless arguments that would last rather than just be time bound. So I mean, we could get into details if it helped, but essentially there's

a few new objections I responded to. There were a few old arguments. I'm like, I don't know that that's as relevant today as it was in the past. And there was one quote that was like on the Lord Liar Lunatic chapter. It was like the new, I can't remember, the new encyclopedia of psychiatry. I looked up the footnote. It was like 1974. I was like, okay, I think I need a new quote on this one. And we found some experts in the world to weigh in that have some really fresh material that I was kind of excited about too. Well, I'm a nerd when it comes to looking at footnotes. And that's one of the great things about this new edition is it's up to date. I mean, you're quoting current sources.

You're quoting scholars and experts from today. And you've just freshened it up. That's a great example you gave of someone who could give you basically the same kind of argument that was given back in 74, but with a fresh touch and dealing with contemporary issues. So I found that to be very helpful. I'll tell you the aha moment for me. I'm reading this in my bedroom and I'm thinking, huh, yeah, I'm going along. I'm reading it. The one thing that I walked away and I, sometimes I talk about this as being the last piece of a jigsaw puzzle. You know how sometimes when you're a kid, you do a jigsaw puzzle and you don't have the actual picture of what it's going to be.

That's part of the challenge is you don't know what it is. So those are real advanced jigsaw puzzles. Well, I pictured my investigation like doing that kind of jigsaw puzzle. It was slowly coming together. And this was like the last piece that went in that I realized, oh, it's a picture of Jesus, the son of God. And that was and this touches on your research. This touches on the question that I raised as a skeptic back then, which was, oh, don't tell me the disciples suffered and were willing to die. And many of them did die for their conviction that Jesus returned from the dead and thus proved he's the son of God. So what? People die for their religious convictions all the time.

Kamikaze pilots in World War II crashed their planes into ships because they thought they'd go to heaven. And terrorists today will blow up buildings thinking that they're going to go to heaven if they do that. So, you know, don't tell me that the willingness of the disciples to die means anything. And I'm reading this and he made a point that nobody else had made that I'd seen, which is there's a big difference here between let's use a modern example of a terrorist who blows up a building thinking that he's going to go to heaven if he dies that way. Does he know for a fact he's got? No, he has faith that if he dies that way, he's going to go to heaven. Somebody taught it to him. He believes it so much that he was willing to die for it. That tells me nothing about the validity of the claim. But as Josh pointed out in the book, wait a minute, there's a difference

with the disciples. They were there. They touched the resurrected Jesus. They talked to him. They ate with them. Of all human beings who've ever lived in history, they knew the truth. And knowing the truth, they were willing to die for it. That does tell me something about the validity of their claim. And I remember reading, I'm paraphrasing, of course, but I'm reading this and I'm going, oh my gosh, that is a different, and the famous quote, I think from back then, I don't know if it's still in this edition was, nobody knowingly and willingly dies for a lie. Knowingly, they know if it's true or it's a lie. Nobody knowingly and willingly dies for a lie. So I remember walking out, I mean, I could take you back, walking out of my bedroom

and saying to Leslie, hey, I read this book. He said, what do you think? And I said, you know, it really made some good points, you know? And as I say, it was a link in a long chain that ultimately led me to faith but i love how people will find something a nugget in here that answers a question that they have how do i how do i trust the gospels when were they really written um are they confirmed by archaeology uh what about the prophecies and so forth and different things for different people often it's going to be that aha moment that takes them to a point of bending their knee to Jesus. That's incredible. I was so

interested to hear what takeaway from this book, because there's so much overlap with Case for Christ and it's a, it's a popular book. What nugget was there for you? This is probably the most significant help I added to this book because, as you know, my doctoral dissertation was on the death of the apostles. Yes. And I'll tell you, Lee, it is embarrassing to admit, but I might as well put it out there. I started my doctoral dissertation in 2010. And so that's when I started the program. Well, we updated more than a carpenter last in 2009. So I had not done any study on the deaths of the apostles. And my dad originally listed out the traditional deaths of how they died. And in the 2009 version,

anybody can go back and check it. This is probably maybe the worst footnote in apologetics history and beyond. I don't even have the word for it. It says something to the effect of, you know, to know how the apostles died, see church history. That was it. Looking back, I'm like, what on earth was I thinking? But I remember writing that going, huh, this is one area of this research I need to study better and I need to figure out.

And I spent three years, whatever, on my dissertation. I just finished a 10-year update coming out in spring. But I think you hit on it, that the deaths of the apostles, it doesn't prove that Christianity is true. All it shows, I think you hit on it, that the deaths of the apostles, it doesn't prove that Christianity is true. All it shows, I think strongly, is that the apostles really believed it. Now, Buddhists who lit themselves on fire obviously believed it. My goodness for protesting Vietnam or the 9-11 terrorists. But the apostles, like you said, were there. They claimed to have seen Jesus.

They claimed to minister with Jesus. They spent time with him. So they were in the best possible position to know if this was true or not. And then like you wrote this in Case for Christ, which I appreciate, they were willing to suffer and die. Why intentionally put yourselves in harm's way if you didn't minimally have good reason personally to believe this is true, especially given how contrary it was to some of the expectations of a Messiah? Yeah. of the expectations of a messiah yeah that's what i think is an important piece here and i'm my mom would say i'm tickled to death that that was significant for you yeah oh well i think uh your research on that is very important and one of the distinctions which you just brought out is how they died um is one issue um the other issue is their willingness to die. And I found nine ancient sources inside, and I think eight of them were outside the Bible on my own, that talked about the willingness of

the disciples to live lives of deprivation and suffering as a result of their proclamation that Jesus had risen. So their willingness to die is well-established. How some of them did perish, I think, is what you investigate so deeply in your doctoral dissertation, which is fascinating. And yeah, things get a little lost in history and in the haze of history. But the important thing is their willingness to die, right? Am I saying that right? Yeah, I think that's correct. I would say not only their willingness to die die but they were willing to die for the belief that jesus had risen and appeared to them because

people are willing to die for causes namely amikaze pilots yeah despite what candida moss claims that we say there's no martyrs in other faiths that That's not true. There are martyrs. Look at the Maccabean martyrs, but they were dying for their faithfulness to the law. The earliest proclamation we have in the creeds and in the sermons and acts is Jesus has risen and we are witnesses of this. So they're willing to suffer and die for their belief that Jesus had risen appeared to them. And then we have good evidence that at least some of them died as martyrs and no evidence that any of them recanted. Right, right. That's key. Well, what do you think, having really worked on this book and brought it up to date and so forth uh what what in the book what section or

what set of facts and arguments and so forth do you think is pivotal in establishing the case that jesus is who we claim to be see that's really interesting because people are going to answer that question differently yeah sure when i've when i've asked my dad that question, he said a few things. He really believes the prophecy was strong and convinced him and the willingness of the apostles to suffer and die. Those are two of the things that he mentioned. For me, I would put prophecy lower down on the rung of what's convincing to me. I think it's a part of a larger case. I think it's a part of it, but not the most compelling to me. I think the willingness of the apostle to suffer and die is convincing, but it's one small piece of a larger case for the resurrection. For me, I think

I would have to point towards the resurrection and some of the just simple facts of who obviously Jesus claimed to be. You know, he lived, he died, he's buried. We have multiple accounts of the appearances and there's no good naturalistic hypothesis that can account for all the facts. There's none. So if you have, you know, one theory can account for maybe why facts there's none so if you have you know one theory can account for maybe why the body is gone but then you have to have another theory to account

for the appearances and then it becomes ad hoc yeah so for me personally if i was to point towards anything i would probably point towards the resurrection as being the most compelling. But when I ask people that question, many people on a popular level will just say the Lord liar lunatic argument is what really clinches it for them. And by the way, this is one of the other updates that's kind of interesting. We frown on calling people lunatics today in a way we didn't in the past yeah so when we looked at that chapter we're like wow how do we update this so we couldn't drop the l's of course lordly lunatic because it has historical precedent and it it rolls off the tongue obviously but some of the language in the chapter itself i don't think it was too PC. I think it was just appropriately sensitive and nuanced. That was another kind of tweak that we made. The publisher drew to

our attention. I was like, okay, that's fair. We need to think about how we frame this. But I would say probably most people that I ask about the book would either say the fulfilled prophecy yeah or they would say the Lord liar lunatic but for me I think it's the resurrection I don't want to take a big detour here but I'm what I was just having a conversation the other day with a scholar and we were both commenting on how the the evidence for Jesus fulfilling ancient prophecies and Messianic prophecies has really um become much less important in modern apologetics it's not emphasized the way it was even when i did my investigation that was a considerable uh considerably important element in my own

investigation uh these days it doesn't get talked about so much um why is that do you think that's a really interesting question i heard william lane cra Craig comment on that earlier, not long ago, and it was something effective. He just didn't think it was as strong as some of the other arguments. And I think that's probably right. Now, if you're speaking to somebody who's Jewish, which is where the church began and grew primarily to a Jewish audience, you're going to talk about Isaiah 52 and 53 and Zechariah 9 and Micah 5-2 and Daniel 9. I mean, you're going to make these

prophetic arguments because there's a sense of respect for the scriptures, anticipation of the Messiah. But for non-Christians, I just don't find it as compelling to people personally. And so the scholarship that I've seen just has not dove into it. Michael Brown has done some great work on this in his four-volume set, Answering Jewish Objections. I was just actually reading that recently. And I think it's stronger than a lot of people realize. So with that said, I'd love to see a resurgence of people revisiting that and making that case. But personally, I don't find it as compelling as my dad does and did when he wrote this and many other people do, just given maybe my focus. Andael rodelnik's another one who

scholar jewish scholar who's written a lot on that as well great great uh resource but yeah it's just an interesting uh time maybe things are cyclical and it'll come back more as a could be i like the argument i to me it's like fitting a fingerprint from ancient history who fits that fingerprint and uh so it kind of fits my my uh legal thinking but let me ask you this um when this book was originally published it was it broke into a culture where apologetics was not as prominent as it is today. Would you agree with me that today we are in a kind of a golden era of Christian apologetics? Oh, I love that you frame it that way. The first person who I said that way was our friend Alex McFarland. And I don't know if it started with him or not. Maybe it was Greg Hazen. But I think that's right. And let me bring it back to Greg Koko wrote this article recently.

And he kind of said like phase one was these trailblazing apologists doing something that nobody else was doing. So when Norm Geisler is writing these books, he's not reading other Christians. He's coming up with the arguments. Right. And then you have like the second tier, he said, and he said, We have people doing apologetics from the bottom up. So just this morning, I was updating. I write this blog every two years on the best apologetics resources for students. My first student book in 2006, Lee, you endorsed it, was called Ethics, E-T-H-I-X.

And someone reviewed it and said, this is one of a few, but growing apologetics resources for students. No one would say that today. No one would. So now we have people doing apologetics to students. There's TikTokers who are doing it. Like Justin Briley's son, Noah, is doing amazing at that. You have people doing TikTok on Instagram. You have people on YouTube like Stuart and Cliff Koneckley are absolutely killing it. I'm so proud of those guys. Like they are just doing it. And you have a ton of other people on YouTube that are doing it. Mike Winger and Alan Parr and Frank Turek and I could go on and on. So now it's, I guess I would say, when he wrote this

book, there really weren't apologetic speakers. There were not apologetics books, let alone all the other stuff. When I started, there were apologetics books and there were apologetics speakers and a little bit of curriculum. Now there's a ton of speakers. There's a ton of books. Almost every medium you can think of, people are doing it. And some of the people in our apologetics program, half the people that come want to get a master's in our program, just say stuff like, you know what, Sean, I just want to do better Bible studies for my church and my community. And I got to know this stuff. I'm a homeschool mom and I want to learn to do it with my kids. So there's a ton of people now doing it. People will never know their names, but they're

making a difference where they're at. And so I guess to answer your question, I think we're in a golden age from the top down. Better scholarship than ever is being done but we're also in a golden age bottom up more people doing it and caring about it on both levels from when he first wrote more than a carpenter yeah yeah you mentioned uh obviously this book deals with the the resurrection largely and now we have gary habermas writing writing these massive books on the resurrection. I just got the second volume. It's five inches thick on the refutations of challenges to the resurrection and so much good scholarship being done.

But then other people- And by the way, can I jump into this before I forget? So Gary Habermas, four volume life tome. J.P. Merlin's been studying the soul. He just released a life tome on substance dualism. Scott Klusendorf, one of the leading pro-life defenders, just released updated case for life. And Frank Beckwith's working on an update on his case for life. William Lane Craig, what is a two or three volume philosophical theology? So

you have these people, probably the second tier apologists now, who've been doing this three, four decades and are producing these tomes of which Gary Habermas is just one example. So that's even broader than we often realize. Sorry to cut you off. That's exciting though. I get goosebumps thinking about that. That's awesome. Well, Sean, I think this book being updated, here's what I hope. People like me who remember the book and it had an impact on my life. And so I've given it away many times through the years. But now we're in a new generation and I'm just anxious to get the word out that this is a resource that is fresh. It's relevant. It's compelling.

And we ought to be thinking about who are five people, six people in our lives who need to get this for Christmas as a stocking stuffer, as just a little gift. Or I like to leave them at a restaurant with a nice tip and leave this book or The Case for Christ or another case for Christmas or whatever, a small apologetics book and just spread these far and wide. As you pray and think about the impact of this book, what would you like to have God to do with it? Well, first off, I appreciate that if you leave a copy of that book, you leave it with a good tip instead of a tip. Yeah. Yeah. Don't leave the book with a track and think, you know what? I'm giving somebody eternal life, more valuable than a trip, a tip. Please don't.

If you leave it, give a good tip. My granddaughter is a server at a restaurant now, so I would never suggest that. I know, but you would be surprised. We both would be surprised. Yeah. You know, I've thought about this a lot, and I think there's two levels of this. One is there's a huge piece of me when I update this. I just want to honor my dad. I want it to be as good as it can be where he reads it and just says, of its kind in 2017. yeah and i didn't care what anybody else said i was just like that is credit to my father just for his character and for his work so that was a big piece of this yeah i think it's i honestly think because it's short it's

dealing with timeless questions because my father's story is so raw and so real in our age of anxiety and depression and suicidality and abuse that it's more relevant than it's ever been. So just like I think when Bob Beal said, you know, one million copies never dreamed it could get to 30 million. Why couldn't it get to 50 million or a hundred million? And it's not just about the numbers, but like you said, those numbers represent real people wrestling with the person of Jesus. And so my prayer has just been, God, you've allowed me to develop a little bit of platform. My father's still worldwide, even more so out of the United States than in the States, just because of ministry he's been doing and relationships he's building has just a lot of credibility built in.

I just hope that it'll be an effective tool for the kingdom for the future. And honestly, Lee, like if God's done using this book, he's done using it and he'll use something else. I'm okay with that. But there's something inside and it's like, but this book is awesome. And I hear so many stories. What if we've just seen the beginning? So in another 10 or 15 years, you and I talk and are just like we had no idea God could use it. And what's, I think, interesting about this book is it's the kind, I carry copies in my backpack. In the past few

weeks, I've given out a couple to people. That judge gives them out. I've heard doctors give them out. You always got to be appropriate and careful with the relationship dynamic that's there, but it's a cheap book. One of the best ways this book sells a lot of business people buy the six packs and 30 packs where they're really, I think they're as cheap as I can get them as an author or close to it in those 30 packs. So people just buy 30 and they just hand them out. And as much as digital technology is important and we need to use tick tock and twitter and all these things to advance the gospel there's something about a physical book that even if like you years ago you put it on your shelf you just might pull it back

later when prompted by the holy spirit and so i'd encourage anybody listening, a lot of churches, I go to a lot of churches and they'll say in kind of their gift bags that they give out, they'll have a mug and they'll have a notepad and they'll have whatever kind of gifts, info about the church, a little more than a carpenter in there. A ton of churches do that. I don't know a book that's better for that kind of series, for a beginning apologetic series. That and Case for Christ. I actually recommend people, I say, start with Mourner Carpenter and then go to Case for Christ because it's just as readable, but it's a little broader. It's probably three times the depth or so, maybe more, and they go together well. So, I mean,

that's my hope and my dreams about it, I guess. Well, one of my goals is in heaven. I want to sit in the corner of Josh's mansion and watch as people come by and tell him, you don't know me. You've never met me. I've lived on the other side of the planet while you were asleep one night in your home in California, in China. I read this book or in Ukraine or wherever. I was reading your book and God used it to lead me to faith in Christ. I just want to say thanks. I just want to watch the line of people coming up to your dad and giving him a hug and encouraging him. And so I hope you'll pass on to him our love and our admiration and uh our prayers that uh this updated edition is going to continue to uh impact uh the world in in an unprecedented way so thanks

it's been fun i've really enjoyed the insights and and uh i've learned a lot well i hope you'll sit next to my dad and i can watch people walk by the two of you and just share those stories that's that's my hope and my dream you've been you've been one of the most encouraging to people to me from the beginning I remember when we first met over two decades ago early 2000s when I was teaching and that's the way my dad is he's a cheerleader of other people he is he is you know he's written me notes encourage me through the years you know I don't know if I've told you this or I should say this but when your book came out in 1998 right wasn't it 98 case for Christ did I get that right yeah I was traveling work with my dad because I graduated from college that year

and somebody from the publisher I don't know who it was sent a a whole box of the books and the way i read the article was like josh here's the new apologetics your stuff is done was kind of the vibe it was kind of the way it came across and i'll never forget my dad looked at me and he goes, he goes, son, why would I be threatened by this? He didn't even know who you were. He goes, I am rooting for him and rooting for this book. We're all in this together. And I'll never forget that. He wasn't threatened by it. He was thrilled at the work that you're doing. And without even realizing you have returned that favor to me by encouraging me in the same way now i get to work with your son at talbot kyle and i just you know it's it's awesome we have so much

fun see him all the time and he's doing great work at talbot uh you know after it's a thrill after i came to faith i thought i'd like to someday meet josh mcdowell and thank him and um it turned out that my son ended up studying at biola with you he met you before i met your dad oh i didn't know that yeah yeah so you got to know my son kyle and he called me say hey i met sean mcdowell and a really nice guy and i said really well doggone it i want to meet his dad and ultimately i did but so my son knew you before i knew your dad that i i didn't even know that that's that's really cool and now we're buddies tab colleagues which i will wrap this up by reminding folks if you're watching this you can come study apologetics with me at talbot school of theology bile university uh kyle

teaches in the spiritual formation program, but he's here as well. If that interests you, we'd love to have you. We have an on-campus program and a distance program. Or if you're not ready for master's, there's a certificate program. We just love to train and equip you. Lee, we've got an interview of your next book coming up.

I don't know if we want to tell people what it is. Maybe give us an appropriate trailer. You're coming back on in a few weeks to talk about your next book coming up. I don't know if we want to tell people what it is. Maybe give us an appropriate trailer. You're coming back on in a few weeks to talk about your next book. Tell us about that and what we can expect. Yeah, it's called Seeing the Supernatural. And it's a book about how do we know, you know, the Bible talks about a supernatural realm, another dimension, popular by angels and demons and so forth, this other world. How do we know that that's true? I mean, it sounds so crazy in our scientific and technological age,

but I look at what evidence is there for a realm beyond what we see and touch. It's fascinating. I deal with miracles. I deal with deathbed visions. I deal with near-death experiences. I deal with all kinds of fascinating glimpses that God gives us into the world to come. So that comes out in March, and I think you can pre-order it already on Amazon and elsewhere. But I'm excited about it. uh for me who tends to be uh you know if i can see it and touch it then i believe it um you know to delve into this other realm um of a where we can't see and touch and yet it's every bit as real and relevant uh as what we can see in touch uh it's been a fascinating journey for me i can't wait to read you sent me the pdf i think there's a lot of work to be done like we said in messianic prophecies and bringing that full circle i think this is an area there are dozens

of phd dissertations and projects that need to be done i've interviewed some of the people i know that in your book here multiple times yeah and i think it's one of the best burgeoning realms of apologetics and you always seem to have your finger on the pulse of where stuff is headed. So I can't wait to flip the script and interview you. Honestly, I had no idea what you were gonna ask me today. I was like, is he gonna grill me on the deity of Christ? Like I had no clue, but above all, this was just so much fun.

Thanks for thinking of these questions. Thanks for reading the book and carving out your time to be with me. I enjoyed it so much and god bless you and your dad you