The Sean McDowell Show - Mormonism Examined: Jesus, God, Salvation, and More

Episode Date: December 12, 2025

Is Mormonism Christian? What does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teach about different Jesus, the gospel, the nature of God, the afterlife, grace, and more? Bill McKeever, founder of Mormonism Research Ministry, is one of the leading experts on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints today. He brings a deep understand of LDS theology as well as the history of the church. He joins me to tackle questions many people are asking but often afraid to voice. Join us and let us know what you think! READ: Mormonism 101: Examining the Religion of the Latter-day Saints by Bill McKeever (https://amzn.to/48txpwG) VISIT: mrm.org (Mormonism Research Ministry) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [smdcertdisc] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org   Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

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Life Audio. Is Mormonism Christian? Is it part of the historic Christian movement? Or does it proclaim a different view about Jesus, Scripture, salvation, and more? For some reason, they just feel like they have to have our blessing on their claim to Christianity. They're saying, you know what, Eric, I don't stay up nights wondering whether or not LDS people think I'm a Christian. But why is it that it seems to bother them? whenever we challenge their claim to Christianity,

I would hope that the Latter-day Saint really believes it doesn't honor God to believe something that's not true, that they would see if you don't think it honors God, I would think the next step is you need to do something like, get out of the Mormon church. You're going to have to repent and ask God to forgive you for believing a lot of the errors that Joseph Smith and all those that came after him have been teaching their people.

Here to talk about these questions and more is one of the leading experts today on the church. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the founder of the Mormonism Research Ministry, and a personal friend, Bill McKeever. Bill, thanks for coming on. Hey, thanks for having me, Sean. I hope we have a good time doing this today. Oh, I know for sure we will. Well, I was spurred on this because I responded to an Instagram post in which some families were arguing that Mormonism is essentially Christian. And it got a ton of engagement. And I thought, you know what? There are more people talking about

this right now. I want to weigh into it again. But before we compare and contrast Mormon teachings with the historic Christian faith, why do you care so much about this question? I imagine some people write off if they're still staying with us, are wondering why we're unnecessarily picking on members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Yeah, that's a fair question. I can't speak for everybody and why they study the teachings and history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but I can tell you very clearly when it comes to myself, I grew up with Latter-day Saints in Southern California, and they were great friends of mine. I can only think of good memories with my LDS friends.

They never tried to convert me, however, until after I became a Christian. And I was not a Christian during my high school years. I became a Christian afterwards. And when I started talking to some of my LDS acquaintances at that time, then of course, they're trying to convert me to their faith. And as we talked, it became readily apparent that a lot of the things that they were claiming to believe were not what I was either reading in the Bible or hearing at my church or hearing from other Christians or what I was hearing on Christian radio.

it was very different. And as I talked to my friends about these things, naturally, they're my friends. And I'm hearing some of the things that they're saying and I'm becoming concerned. So I started reading their own material. Most of my study of Mormonism came from primary sources. I had one little book that was written by a man who was a Christian missionary on the Navajo Reservations. His name was Gordon Frazier. I had the pleasure of meeting Dr. Frazier before he passed away many years ago. But I had his book, and I bought it mainly for his bibliography. And so I started looking up a lot of the books that he was citing. And I found those books, purchased many of them or found them by other means, but I was wanting to read what do their books have to say? not necessarily what outsiders say about them, but what do their leaders say about themselves.

So my study really goes to the primary sources. And I've kind of stuck with that philosophy for about 50 years now that I've been studying Mormonism. I like to go to the primary sources. And the reason why in many of those primary sources, Latter-day Saints are supposed to respect them. For instance, when you quote the standard works, the book of Mormon, the Bible, the doctrine and covenant, Roll Great Price, that's a source that Latter-day Saints are supposed to respect and believe. And the same is true when it comes to, for instance, conference messages and church manuals, their own curriculum that is printed by the church and comes under the authority of the first presidency. See, these are sources that Latter-day Saints are supposed to respect.

Now, having done this for as long as I have, naturally, I've learned from experience that there are a lot of Latter-day Saints that don't tend to believe what their church is telling them to believe. That's fair. There's a lot of independent thought among many Latter-day Saints today. I'll tell you, Sean, it wasn't so much like that when I started studying. studying this in the 1970s. And what I mean by that is when I was talking, let's say, to LDS missionaries, and they would say something and I would counter with something that I had read from

their own sources and maybe quoted an LDS apostle or one of their past presidents, it wasn't uncommon if the missionary was given me an answer that seemed to contradict what that leader said for the missionary to go, oh, well, if that's what he says, and then that's, what we believe. Nowadays, I'm finding when you bring up some of these sources, the Latter-day saint will kind of shrug their shoulders and act like, well, that's not all that important because they do teach that they all have personal revelation. However, personal revelation is never supposed to undermine the revelatory statements of their superiors in the church. In other words, a Mormon missionary would have, let's say, the Melchizedek priesthood.

Now, there's tens of thousands of Melchizedic priests in the LDS Church. It's not all that important role, you might say. However, if you're a bishop in the Mormon church, you don't have authority over, let's say, a 70 in the Mormon church, or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You don't have authority over an apostle in the church. A 70 doesn't have authority over an apostle in the church. An apostle does not have authority over even a member of the first presidency. And there are three men, including the prophet Seer and Revelator, the president of the church, that formed that group there. But yet I am hearing more and more of, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but low-level Latter-day Saints,

lay level, let's say it that way, that feel that somehow their personal revelation tends to override what has been taught by the church. I like to stick with what the church has said. And I was even commended by a blogger a while back who watched the video of me, and I made that comment, and she actually agreed with me. And she was even frustrated by some of her own fellow members who seemed to think that whatever they feel personally is what true Mormonism is even if it conflicts with what leaders have said i think i'm in the right on this one okay and i find that by quoting them and quoting their manuals um if they don't believe that i really look at it this way that's their problem not mine you know i think i'm going to the source and what they're supposed to believe that's totally fair

Well, you know, I teach in our Talbot apologetics program, I'm telling our students all the time. Go to original sources. If you're studying the possibility of miracles, read Hume yourself, not a Christian critiquing it. So I've always respected that about you and Eric Johnson and the others that work with you at the Mormonism research ministry. We're going to get into some of the really similarities and differences on the big questions of Jesus, the virgin birth, grace and works. But maybe just remind us of some of the historic background of the. the emergence of the LDS Church in the 1800s. What's the origin story and how does it inform whether we should consider them Christian or not?

Yeah, the origin story is very important because the first vision, as it's called, has been described by the church and by Joseph Smith himself. This is found in his history, which is a part of the Pearl of Great Price, which is Mormon scripture. Joseph Smith claims in the official version, and again, when you're talking about the first vision or visions, he gives different accounts. So I want to make it very clear than I'm referring to the 1838 account, which by the way, no one really knew of the 1838 account, even until the early 1840s. The first vision was not something that Joseph Smith was talking about. This can be demonstrated in a number of ways. One, we don't have any sermons by Joseph Smith talking about this first vision and we have nobody writing about it in their journals in the early years. We don't have any critics of Mormonism in the early years mentioning the first vision. And you would think if that was a part of the

Mormon narrative, there would be critics going after that. And why is that? Well, because Joseph Smith claims in his 1838 account, there was a religious excitement in the area where he was living at the time, which is in the Palmyra, Manchester area of New York, upstate New York, near Rochester, New York. He claims that this revival or religious excitement involved the Baptist, Methodist, and Presbyterian churches. He claims that many multitudes were added to the churches. And he also gives us a lot of other details where we can pinpoint precisely the revival or religious excitement he's he was talking about. Now, he claims that this took place in the spring of 1820. 1820. The church is not going to be

founded until April of 1830. So according to this, we have about a 10-year gap. Well, as I said, the revival that he describes, he gives us so many details that we know exactly which one it is. The problem is that revival that he is describing in his testimony there did not happen until the fall of 1824 and into spring of 1825. Now, some might say, well, that's not a big deal. I get my dates wrong all the time. Well, this is a big deal because if Joseph Smith did not go out into the woods until this revival took place. and because of what happens in this revival, the way it ends, because he describes it coming to an end, because there seemed to be some contention as to where the new converts were going to attend church regularly.

And because of this bickering, and he talks about this, it came to an end. And this left Joseph Smith confused as to which church he should join. Now, right there we see that Smith has an understanding of the church that is, certainly not one that we would see in the New Testament. Because we have always believed as Christians that the church is primarily, it's made of forgiven people. That's what composes the church. But he's looking at it as an organization. And it's not unusual to do that. In fact, we use the word church differently in our vernacular. But I think when we look at the New Testament, we see that the church is like a living organism of forgiven people that have put their faith in Jesus.

Christ. So he's confused as to which church or organization he should join. And that's what compels him to go out into the woods to pray. He gets this idea of going out to the woods from James 1.5. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God. Now, there's something interesting about this, because if you read other accounts, there's a statement that seems to imply that Joseph Smith was given James 1.5, perhaps through a minister, a Methodist minister by the name of George Lane. George Lane refers to James 1.5 when encouraging people how they should join a church to pray and ask God. Interesting. George Lane was a part of this revival that Joseph Smith describes, that he was not in the area of Palmyra in the spring of 1820.

Neither was Benjamin Stockton, who was the Presbyterian minister involved in this revival. He was not in the Palmyra area in the spring of 1820. So the evidence seems to move towards 1824 into 1825. Smith takes James 1-5, he goes out into the nearby woods, He starts to pray, and he claims after basically feeling this dark spirit come over him, where he feels like he's about to die, eventually this whatever manifestation was, it leaves him, and he sees above him standing in the air are two personages. One says to the other, this is my beloved son, hear him.

Well, you can only figure out who this has to be. It's the father and the son. In this conversation, he is told by the person. that all the churches are wrong and that Joseph Smith is not to join any of the churches. Their creeds are an abomination and their professors are corrupt. Well, in this account, Joseph Smith claims it never occurred to him that all the churches were wrong. But yet, in 1832, Joseph Smith writes in his personal diary that he was concerned about whether or not his sins were forgiven and he goes out into the woods with that being the motive and when he

prays about forgiveness of his sins he sees one personage who describes himself as the lord and who was crucified so at that time he says in his diary he already knew all the churches were wrong i'm paraphrasing but that's basically what he says but we don't hear any mention of god that the father in this 1832 account. Now Joseph Fielding Smith, the 10th president of the church, must have seen this as a problem because when Joseph Fielding Smith, who for 50 years was the church historian, later to become the 10th president, when he comes across this diary account, he actually takes it out of the diary and puts it in a safe where it remains for a time until eventually the word gets around and that eventually gets pulled out and becomes public knowledge.

Why would Joseph Fielding Smith put that 1832 account in a safe where no one can see it? Because he saw it as a conflict, and I believe it is. Oh, interesting. Modern apologists are trying to harmonize some of the things between his earlier accounts and his 1838 account. Some things you probably could say you could harmonize. but there's some things you can't. I think one of the biggest problems in between the 1832 and 1838 account is the 1832 account leaves out God. Looking for a simple way to stay rooted in God's Word every day.

The Daily Bible Devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you connected with scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy daily Bible trivia and humor, a fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your faith. Get the Daily Bible Devotion app for free on both iOS and Android. Start and end your day with God's Word. Search for the Daily Bible Devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store and download it today. The Father, how do you miss that? That's a fair question.

How do you miss that? But yet he does. And even though later on it comes about, I think it's because Joseph Smith is embellishing his story as the, years go by. Now, again, we don't have a lot of accounts to compare it to because Joseph Smith didn't talk about this. That's why it's not in anybody's journals. That's why it's not really even in the early history. Now, Moroni is the angel who appears to Joseph Smith in 1823 to tell him about the gold plates. That was pretty much common knowledge. Joseph Smith was talking about the angel that told him about a gold record. And he did receive a lot of.

lot of criticism for that, but we don't see any specific criticism of Joseph Smith for claiming that he saw God the Father. One of the things I like to bring out with Latter-day Saints is right after Joseph Smith starts the church in April of 1830, in June of 1830, he claims he receives a revelation from God, telling him to give us a new translation of the scriptures. A new translation of the scriptures. Now, he doesn't know Hebrew. He doesn't know Greek. He's going to do this basically by himself.

But he also claims that it took him three years before he finished, and that's the word he uses, he finishes his translation of the scriptures. And if you want to see where he says that, it's volume one, page 368 of the documentary history of the church. That's the seven-volume set. July 2nd, 1833, we this day finish. the scriptures. Okay, great. Go back and we look at Exodus 3320. In our Bible, it basically says that no man can see God and live. But Joseph Smith adds to this passage in Exodus 3320,

and what's known as the Joseph Smith translation, to go on and elaborate that no sinful man has ever seen God and no sinful man will ever see God and live to tell about it. And I asked Latter-day Saints, is this a contradiction? Which I know it's not. And the reason why it's not a contradiction is because at that time, and this can't be any later than 1833, Joseph Smith wasn't saying he saw the father. That doesn't come up for another five years. Interesting. Five more years before that becomes a part of the story. We can learn a lot from the Joseph Smith translation. I really do believe that if Smith did,

that, let's say in the 1840s, rather than the 1830s, it would probably read very different in a lot of places. Yeah. Because his theology is certainly evolving. I've heard Mormon scholars, for instance, refer to the book of Mormon as no question about it. It's a monotheistic book, and it is. I believe it is. But that's not what Joseph Smith was when he dies in the 1840s. He believed that there were actually three gods within the godhead. And not only that, but mankind has the ability to become gods themselves. Well, if you figure, if you've got about 17, 18 million Latter-day Saints, divided it in half, say half of them are males,

that's the potential for how many gods you can have in existence right at this point, not to mention how many there have been in the past. Let me jump in here because we are getting to the theological differences that we're drawing out, which is really, really important. to clarify for people. There's the question of what Mormonism teaches. Does it align with the historic Christian faith? And you've rightly raised some historical challenges to the truth of the LDS faith. Those are distinct, but very, very important questions that overlap. And I appreciate that you've drawn out both of those. One thing I've seen in my understanding, you can totally correct me if this

is wrong, but it feels like somewhere around the 90s, and I guess it said I was in high school, maybe it was just on my radar, there was an intentional effort to align the Mormon Church as the Church of large letters, Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and lean into their Christian roots. Am I, if we went back, did we find leaders initially saying, no, we are the Church of Jesus and referring themselves as Christians, or is this more of a modern phenomenon? Well, the church has always claimed to be Christian. But it goes a step further than that. It's always claimed to be the only true Christian church. And that can be found in Section 1 in the Doctrine and Covenants. It makes it very clear that the church that Joseph Smith brings about is the only church that God is well pleased.

Okay. But let me read you something here that kind of gives us an understanding. This is a statement from the six. president of the church. His name was Joseph F. Smith. I know I quoted Joseph Fielding Smith earlier. Well, the F. Smith stands for fielding as well. And so that we don't get totally confused because of all the Joseph Smiths in Mormon history, that's how the church does it so you can distinguish between the two. Joseph F. Smith was the sixth president. And this is a statement that he's made that I think puts it in perspective. He says, for I contend that the latter

saints are the only good and true Christians that I know anything about in the world. There are good many people who profess to be Christians, but they are not founded on the foundation that Jesus Christ himself has laid. Now, the reason he can say something like that is because after Joseph Smith has this first vision, as they call it, he starts the church in April of 18th. And this is supposed to be a church, a restored church that is giving restored gospel. Restoration is a big word if we're going to understand where our LDS friends are coming from. And when they talk about the gospel, you have to remember they're thinking of what they think is the restored gospel. Not necessarily what we would say is the New Testament gospel.

There's as a restored gospel. So where is the source from that? Well, it all goes back to Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith, because he's believed to be a latter-day prophet, can say and really do just about anything he wants. And because he is a prophet, naturally loyal, faithful Latter-day Saints are going to believe what he has to say.

many times at the expense of what the New Testament has to say. But we need to understand the language there. And of course, if you're going to spend any time at all talking with Latter-day Saints, you're going to have to understand that they use a lot of words that we use, but they define those words very differently. So when you hear them just say, gospel, you need to ask them, when you say gospel, what do you mean by them? Or when you say Jesus, what's the word?

do you mean by that? When you say God the Father, what do you mean by that? Scripture, what do you mean by that? You can do it politely. You don't have to be snarky or anything, but it's important if we're going to communicate to at least have our definitions clearly spelled out so that we can avoid talking past each other. And many times I get will-meaning Christians telling me, well, I talk to my neighbor, and he's LDS. and he believes everything I believe. Then I'll kind of chide him and say, oh, so does that mean you're a Mormon? He goes, well, no.

Well, if you believe everything your Mormon neighbor believes, why wouldn't I assume you are? And so I start asking him, well, did they tell you this? Did they tell you this or that? Well, no. I says, did you ask them to clarify these words? Well, no, why would I need to do that? Well, this is why.

This is why you have to do that. Well, this is really helpful. We're going to get into some of those issues. and clarify them. But just one more kind of historical piece to frame this for people. What is the great apostasy according to the teachings of the LDS Church? Yeah, the great apostasy is really what separates the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from the rest of Christianity.

There are some passages in the Book of Mormon that tend to disparage those who are a part of of Christianity, but although they broaden it, it's called the Church of the Devil. That's the phrase that's used in the book of Mormon. Now, leaders have clarified that and have cautioned people not to assume that when it says the Church of the Devil, that's speaking of only one church. It's actually speaking of all of them. Not only all churches, but even all organizations or anything that speaks against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or,

against the principles that the church holds to and things like that. Let me read you something else again, because again, I want to go back to the primary resource. This is from a book called The Great Apostasy. It was written by a man named James Talmadge, who was a very well respected general authority, an apostle in the church. And this is what he says.

Notice the language. The restored church affirms that a general apostasy developed during and after the apostolic period and that the primitive church lost its power, authority, and graces as a divine institution and degenerated into an earthly organization only. The significance and importance of the great apostasy as a condition proceeding to the precedent to the reestablishment of the church in modern times is obvious. said. Now this is the kicker. If the alleged apostasy of the primitive church was not a reality, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the divine institution. Its name proclaims.

So in other words, if there was not a complete apostasy, as B.H. Roberts, a 70 in the church stated, he said there would be no need for the LDS Church to even exist. So, the The Latter-day Saint can't get away from that. So when we hear, let's say, lay members in the church say things to us like, well, we're Christians just like you, that's something you're not going to hear the leaders of the church say. That's a street-level Mormonism. That's not what I hear in general conference.

That's not what I read in the church manuals. That's not what I read in the books written by general authorities. They don't say things like that. And yet on the street, we'll hear something. like that or we'll hear something like, well, we all believe in the same Jesus. Well, that's not what the leaders say. And again, that becomes the problem. How are we to understand Mormonism? If we're trying to understand what is sometimes a very complex religion when you think about it. But still, this is why it's important to ask these questions. And I always tell Christians,

whenever I'm teaching on this subject, never assume anything when you're talking to a Latter-day Saint. Yeah. I never go in telling them things like, well, you believe this or you believe that. I want to ask the individual, well, what is it that you believe on this? Because I have found that many times their answers can be all over the map. And that's to be understood, I guess. I mean, and to be fair, sometimes when Latter-day Saints ask us,

us as Christians, they're probably getting some answers that could be all over the map too. And I'll admit that does happen. That does happen. But again, we all have to go back to our primary sources, do we not? And hopefully we can do that even when the problem is on our side. And certainly we don't want to be the problem like that. Bill, is this fair to say, and I know we haven't made this case yet, but I would say, as a historic Christian that Mormonism, the LDS Church, teaches a different Jesus, a different gospel,

and has a different authority about the scriptures. And that's kind of a standard historic view looking at the doctrine that is taught biblically and historically. And the leadership within the LDS Church says that you and I and historic Christian faiths are believing a corrupt gospel and it's false. Is that fair to say that really both sides, when proverbs, understood, view the other outside of the realm of following Jesus? Yeah, I think that's a good way of putting it. We do not hide the fact that we have some serious problems with the theology of the church. And when they are usually talking among themselves, speaking of Latter-day Saints,

they're usually pretty open about that as well. But there's this weird thing that I've noticed. And it was around when I started studying Mormonism. for a simple way to stay rooted in God's Word every day. The Daily Bible Devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you connected with scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy Daily Bible trivia and humor, a fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your faith. Get the Daily Bible Devotion app for free on both iOS and Android. Start and end your day with God's Word. Search for the Daily Bible Devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store

and download it today. But it seems to be more prevalent now. For some reason, they just feel like they have to have our blessing on their claim to Christianity. And I've often talked with Eric about this saying, you know what, Eric, I don't stay up nights wondering whether or not LDS people think I'm a Christian. I mean, if they don't think I'm a Christian, that's fine with me, you know. But why is it that it seems to bother them?

whenever we challenge their claim to Christianity. Now, let's think about this. If Joseph Smith was telling the truth about this alleged first vision, wouldn't that mean that we can't be true Christians? How can you be a part of the great apostasy and still maintain that you're a true Christian? It doesn't make sense. So sometimes I'll kind of kid around with some of the Latter-day Saints I'm talking to,

And if they sound like they're believing what, let's say, evangelicals have historically believed, I'll kind of smile and say, you know, I'm glad to hear what you're saying. You seem to be coming in our direction. We're not going in your direction. I have no desire to believe in tritheism. I have no desire to have to keep all the commandments in order to be justified. I have no desire for any of that. But yet I'm finding, and maybe it's because Christians are sharing their faith with Latter-day

Saints. I think there's a lot of Latter-day Saints that really want what we have. But the church, their church, prevents them from having it. Because it's almost like that scene in Godfather when Michael Corleone says, I'm trying to get out and they keep drawing me back in, you know. It's kind of that way, I think, with some Latter-day Saints, they like our view of justification by faith. However, how do you belong to a church, believe? that when you've had leaders say that justification by faith alone is a pernicious doctrine. It's kind of hard to have both. You need to make up your mind if you're a Latter-day Saint and pick one. Because if you want to go the church's way, then fine. That means you have to

keep all the commandments. You have to repent of all your sins. And according to the way it's been described by their leaders, repentance, true repentance is confessing your sin, never repeating that sin again. I've never met a Latter-day Saint like that. Quite honestly, I've never met one. And be quite honest, I've never met a Latter-day Saint who is qualified for the celestial kingdom. They're just not, because in order to go to the celestial kingdom, the highest level of Mormon heaven, you have to keep celestial law, which involves keeping all of the commandments, all of the commandments, not some. You don't get to pick which ones you want. You have to keep them all, as well. well as having repented of all your sins, never to repeat those sins again. If you do repeat your

sins again, your former sins return according to the doctrine and covenants. Man. All right. So Bill, before we jump in, we're getting really close. I know people are going, okay, lay out the differences. But what do you see being at stake? I want you to steal man from the side of the Latter-day Saint Church, what they think is at stake with us not coming along and embracing Joseph Smith and his teachings. And what's at stake from a historic Christian position looking at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Sean, that's an excellent question. And I think it tends to explain why Latter-day Saints may be getting frustrated with us. We have a sense of urgency. We really feel this mortality is the time to come to faith. Now is the time.

Okay. And if you wait till after you die, I guess you could say we kind of believe like the book of Mormon teaches because the book of Mormon actually says if you procrastinate your repentance even until death, the devil has sealed you is. Now modern Mormonism tends to say that maybe there's an opportunity for you to get things right in the next life. But it comes with it comes with conditions. I don't know if you want to get into all that, but they don't have that sense of urgency. for us because according to their theology, if we were not to embrace Joseph Smith as a prophet, if we were not to embrace what they believed to be the restored gospel, and if we were not to join the only true church, which of course they think is their church, we would merely go to a lower level of heaven. They would say that's not a bad place. In fact, they would probably even tell you, You go to the terrestrial kingdom being a good Bible-believing Christian and you claim you want to be with Jesus.

Well, hey, guess what? Jesus is going to be there in the terrestrial kingdom. So you'll get what you want. If you're not quite as good, you go to a level lower, the telestial kingdom. But Latter-day Saints aren't looking to go to the terrestrial kingdom. They're not going to go. They don't want to go to the celestial kingdom. They want to go to the celestial kingdom.

Why? What are the perks in the celestial kingdom? Why would a Latter-day Saint want that over the other two? Well, that's where they're going to be with their family. And I've asked many Latter-day Saints, what is it you want in the next life? What is it you hope to receive in the next life? Most of them will say, I want to be with my family. That's what they're looking forward to. The problem with wanting that, and that's not really, inherently a bad thing. I would love to have my family in heaven too. I want to be there with my family. But if they don't put their faith in Christ and have their sins forgiven, I understand fully what the New Testament says. They won't be there. And it kind of works the same way in

Mormonism. If you, for instance, have a son who is not quite living up to the dictates of your faith, that son will not be in the celestial kingdom. You will not. be with that son. If your spouse, let's say, speaking to the ladies, if your husband has some secret sin out there that nobody knows about but him and God, he's going to be held accountable for that sin. Because of that, he will not be keeping celestial law. He will not go to the celestial kingdom. Can you imagine belonging to a faith and your whole hope has been built about being with your spouse throughout eternity? And if Mormonism is true, true, you get there after you die, and you're wondering, well, where's my husband?

Well, too bad. He's in the terrestrial. So what happens to you? Now, this is where a lot of speculation comes in, but some have said that you'll probably, if you're a female, without your spouse in the next life, you'll be divvied out to some other Mormon male. Oh, wow. Maybe you didn't even know. Someone you may have known and probably didn't like. Who knows? It's speculation.

There's nothing really in their scriptures about it. But these are some of the hints that leaders have given over the years because they have to come up with some kind of answer for their membership because these are real questions that many members have. There's a lot of questions when it comes to the Mormon hereafter. For instance, if you're keeping celestial law as a Mormon male, that means you're, you're are eligible to get your own world in the next life. You will then become God over that world. Now, LDS leaders have spelled this out. I know there are some Latter-day Saints. Maybe they're

embarrassed by this doctrine and try to tell us, well, that's not what we believe. Let me just say this. No Mormon that you're probably talking to has any right to say, we don't believe this or we don't believe that. They don't speak for the church. Wow. And I know there's a lot of Latter-day Saints that do that. The only one that speaks for the church is the prophet of the church, the president of the church. He's the only one.

Everyone else has to come under the auspices and authority of those individuals that are above them. But when we hear Latter-day Saints, for instance, well, we don't believe that we're going to become gods. and I've heard some say that. It seems to undermine or at least contradict so many teachings that have been taught throughout the history of the church, especially the Lorenzo Snow Cuplet, that they're going to, as man is, God once was, as God is man may be. I mean, that's still in pretty modern manuals that were printed in the last 10, 20 years. So it's not a 19th century doctrine.

And that was something that Joseph Smith also taught similarly in his Kingfollet discourse, which some have said is the best sermon and the most important sermon Joseph Smith ever gave. That was in April 84 when he taught that. It's a horrendous sermon when you read it. Oh, man, it's horrible doctrine. But when you've got LDS scholars saying it's one of the best, think about that. Why would they say that? We're going to come to the character God here in a minute.

I have one quick observation, then we're going to really start to walk through some of the distinctions here. As you talk about the afterlife, Bill, I was getting a tour at Temple Square of one of the museums, and my host was a widow who was married in the temple and had lived a life according to the Mormon teachings. And I asked her, I said, well, could you get remarried? And she said, well, I could get remarried for this life, but not remarried in the temple for the next life. I said, well, what if your husband had lived and you had died? She said, well, he could get remarried in the temple and sealed to another wife, but not me. And I said, well, in due,

I'll do respect. Number one, that just strikes me as a little sexist. But second, what if you get sired for eternity with another woman that you didn't choose and you don't even like? And she looked at me like she had never even thought about it, didn't know what to do with that. I wasn't trying to be aggressive. I was just asking questions. We could do a whole show on this because in some ways, part of the draw to LDS faith is you get to be with your family in the afterlife. And like you said, I get that on the surface. But if you start going a little bit further, it raises even bigger problems that again, we could circle back to. But let's go to the big issue that everybody really wants to talk about. I have about five or six doctrinal issues for you. Really, the dividing line, of course,

going to be the person of Jesus. What are the similarities, but what would you say are the key differences in who Jesus is and what he accomplished? Well, they have a Jesus, that's for sure. And although, as I mentioned earlier, LDS leaders have made it very clear that their Jesus is different than our Jesus. In fact, Bruce McConkey, a Mormon apostle, who wrote a number of things on LDS doctrine. I know McConkey sometimes has fallen out of favor with some modern Latter-day Saints. But when McConkey was alive, man, he was the guy everybody looked up to. I mean, he wrote a book called Mormon Doctrine. What do you think's in it? Okay. I know there's some controversy about his 58 edition, but I think the controversy about his 58 edition was more

in how he presented the message, but not necessarily the message itself. And a lot of what he taught in his 58 edition found its way into the 66 edition, and later the 79 edition. teaching basically the same thing. But you're asking, rephrase your question because I want to make sure I precisely answer the question. Yeah, I compare and contrast the historic Christian view of Jesus with the view of Jesus in the Mormon church. Right. It was McConkey who said, we believe in a mythical Christ. That's one of McConkey's statements. You have also Gordon B. Hinkley that also said that we believe in a different Jesus. You have Bernard P. Brockbank who said that we as Christians believe in a different Jesus.

Their Jesus, according to the grand narrative, is an offspring of heavenly father and a heavenly mother. between this relationship in what we would call our pre-existence in the spirit world, Heavenly Father, the one they call Elohim, and Heavenly Mother, she doesn't have a proper name, she's just known as Heavenly Mother, get together as a married couple, and they have, even though they have bodies of flesh and bones, they have a spirit child, and they call him Jehovah in the pre-existence. Okay, later on we know him as Jesus. They also have other children in this pre-existence.

Lucifer, for instance, is a child that is from their relationship. And we are a result of this relationship. So we're all spirit brothers and sisters according to Mormonism. That's where the connection comes with Jesus and Lucifer. Jesus is a spirit, son of God, of Heavenly Father and Mother. Lucifer is a son of God. of heavenly father and heavenly mother. You, Sean, you're a son of heavenly father and mother. I myself am. We all are. So not only should it bother us that Jesus is related somehow to Lucifer,

we're related to him as well, basically in the same way. And of course, Jesus somehow, and I don't know how this happens, because it seems like an anomaly. But McConkey was one of them that actually spelled this out probably clearer than most, somehow Jesus in this pre-existent state was able to prove himself worthy enough to become a God in the pre-existence. Now, we can't do that or we didn't do that. And it doesn't even sound like Heavenly Father when he was once a man, as Joseph Smith taught. He didn't do it either. But somehow Jesus is able to be elevated to the Lord.

level of a God in the pre-existence. Now, why is that significant? It's significant because the reason why we are here on this earth is to prove our worthiness in order to become a God after we die. Looking for a simple way to stay rooted in God's Word every day. The Daily Bible Devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you connected with scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy Daily Bible trivia and humor, a fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your faith. Get the Daily Bible Devotion app for free on both iOS and Android.

Start and end your day with God's Word. Search for the Daily Bible Devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store and download it today. How Jesus does it without coming to an earth and proving himself. How did that happen? because we're told in their manuals and such that we could only progress so far in our pre-existent state, making it necessary to come down to earth and be tempted and tried and to overcome our sins and temptations. It seems like Jesus skipped that one.

And so I don't really know how that works. It's just assumed that that's what happened. Now, Jesus does in their theology, he does atone for the sins of mankind. Again, there's some differences here because for much of the history of the church, the atonement took place in the Garden of Gisemone. And it's not that they denied that there was a cross, because the cross, the crucifixion, is talked about in the Book of Mormon. It's there.

But it seemed to almost get an answer. afterthought. Whenever they would show in the older manuals in particular, the picture of Jesus in the garden of Gisemone, it wouldn't be uncommon for a picture a few pages down or maybe across the page of showing Jesus on the cross. But the emphasis was always in the garden. And this is how it's emphasized in the doctrine and covenants. And there's even some scholars that have said that Jesus paid for mankind's sin, all of mankind's sin, in the garden. Which raises the obvious question. Well, if he paid for all of the sins of mankind in the garden, what was left for him to do on the cross? I've never really seen a distinction between the necessity of these two places, but you would

think if all of them were paid for in one place, you wouldn't need a second place. And of course, of course, we would never say that the atonement took place in the garden because an atonement requires a death of the sacrifice. Jesus didn't die in the garden. Now it talks about him sweating as it were great drops of blood. And of course, Latter-day Saints take that as literal blood. That was that was spilt. That was the word that Bruce McCaw like to use. But there was no death.

You have to have a death. in order for an atonement to take place. So while we would recognize Jesus certainly suffered greatly in the garden, why did he suffer? Because he knew where he was going. And even what I think was Talmadge, James Talmich, it actually brings that out. He saw that as well.

So there's a difference there also. This is a somewhat separate issue, but there's a textual problem with the claim that Jesus sweat like drops of blood, which is only in Luke. and there's questions, nonetheless, if it even was originally in Luke. And you see a lot of these historical issues emerge. Like I read the Book of Mormon quoting some of the contested passages that we now know were likely not in the original, like the ending of Mark suggests somebody writing this

that is not aware of what's actually inspired and what's not. But that's only the beginning of the historical problems. we're talking about theological differences here. So clear differences with the person of Jesus. So is this implied that Jesus once sinned since we sinned and were like him? Or is the church silent on that? They do talk about Jesus being sinless. Brigham Young, he said some things that make you wonder what Brigham Young believed on that,

that there was a possibility he could have. But if a Latter-day saint wants to believe that he thinks Jesus during his mortality did not sin, that's fine. My question is, well, what do you do with your version of God the Father? Did he sin? Because Joseph Smith taught that he was a man like us and that he had to overcome like we are having to overcome. Well, the question obviously is, well, what did he have to overcome? I know what I'm supposed to overcome. Yeah, but what did he overcome?

So in other words, God the Father was on the same type of path, covenant path, is what they call it, as we are on the same kind of covenant path. The covenant path is, I guess you could say it's code word for works, okay, keeping all their covenants, mainly you promise to keep all the commandments. You do that when you're baptized. you do that when you partake of the sacrament each week. You do that when you go to the temple as a Latter-day Saints, as Latter-day Saint. So works are always important.

In fact, let me back up a little bit. Yeah. The reason that we are born here on this earth in physical bodies was a result of our good works in the pre-existence. Because in Mormonism, it's taught that when Jesus was picked, to be the savior of this world, his brother, Lucifer, got upset and rebelled against not only his brother, but also his father, Elohim. There was a war in heaven. One third of God's spirit children decided to choose the side of Lucifer to fight against Heavenly Father and Jesus and so forth.

Of course, he loses. And so Lucifer becomes the dead. And so Lucifer becomes the dead. devil and all the other spirit children of God that followed Lucifer in that war, they become the demons. Now, why is this important? I had an interesting conversation with the Latter-day Saint outside of the Fresno Temple many years ago when they opened the Fresno Temple in California. And it was great because he was directing traffic and he had to stay in one spot for, I think it was at least a two-hour period. So I just parked myself next to him and I'm handing out live here and I'm talking to him and we're having a great conversation. And we got on the subject of judgment.

And he made the comment. He says, well, I don't believe that God will ever send his children to hell because they believe we're all the literal children of God. Whoa, well, let's stop there for a minute. Don't you believe in the war in heaven as it's taught by your church? Well, yeah, he said, well, doesn't that say that all those that chose the side of Lucifer weren't those God Spirit children? Weren't those your brothers and sisters in the pre-existence?

You can't say he's not going to send his children to hell when one third of them right off the bat are going to go to outer darkness, which is kind of their equivalent of the biblical hell. And they go there for one mistake. One mistake. They chose the wrong side. And then I asked them,

how many mistakes or sins have you made? And you think you're not worthy of going there? I mean, he had to rethink that. I bet. Because in Mormonism, yes, God does send his children to hell or outer darkness, as they call it. So we talked about Jesus a little bit. You hit on hell, which is really important. The character of God, God, the Father, you mentioned a little bit that God was once a man like we are.

And so God, the Father, sinned in the past and had a God. who was once a man who presumably sinned. Is that fair before I keep going? Well, I think it's fair, but a Mormon might say that it's more speculation because it doesn't, there's nothing really written on it. However, Sean, I would think that throwing that conclusion would be absolutely consistent,

because if he was a man like us, as man is, God once was, I always ask the Latter-day Saint, well, what kind of a man am I? What kind of a man are you? My first description is, I am a sinful man. That's what defines me, unfortunately, by myself without Jesus in my life. I am a sinful man. They would probably agree with that. So if God was a man like us, how can you consistently say that he couldn't have sin? And if he would be a man. And if he did. What kind of sin did he possibly sin? I mean, it opens the door for all sorts of speculation. But it's not unusual to find Latter-day Saints that don't have a problem with God's sinning. And this is why. They'll say things like, well, the fact that Heavenly Father's sin helps me because I know I sin.

And when I look at what Heavenly Father accomplished as a sinner, I know that I can accomplish those things. too. So again, they're looking at Heavenly Father as the big great example. And if they just do enough that they can eventually end up like him, they don't believe that even if they became a God that they would ever be above him, but they do believe that they will be deity. They have the germs of deity in them. They are gods in embryo. That's the phrase that's been used. And when they get their own worlds, if they were to meet all the requirements, the offspring that they will have on their earth. This is why being married for time and eternity is so important because you need to be with your wife in eternity because she's going to be cranking out these children to fill your world.

Or as some say, planet. I know some Mormons, they cringe when they hear the word planet, but hey, Orson Whitney and Mormon Apostle use the word planet. So I'm just following his lead on that. But they do believe that what they are hoping for is a, I guess you could say, a repetition of what has happened in the past. And that's what they're trying to accomplish. What God did is what we're supposed to do. And then we will be gods as well and have our own worlds. Now, think about this. In that kind of scenario, where's Jesus?

Where's the Jesus we know now? He doesn't play a role in the Mormon hereafter. after judgment, it's all on them. It's all about them. And I've often asked the question. I still don't get a good answer from Latter-day Saints. Why is Jesus still living at home, you might say? I mean, he was perfect. You would think already he would be having his own world and such, but it seems like there's this father-son relationship in Mormonism to this day, which sounds a little bit confusing to me unless, of course, a Mormon wants to say, well, he has to wait for judgment day. What? Why would Jesus need to be judged? Didn't he already become a God anyway? And so many things are so

confusing. It doesn't really make sense. But you're going to find a lot of Latter-day Saints, they don't really think doctrinally so much as they think with their feelings. Feelings is what leads them in all these areas. So a lot of Latter-day Saints don't feel that they need to have answers for a lot of these questions that probably keep you and me up at night trying to figure this out. They just don't. They feel it. They feel the Holy Ghost confirmed it to them. And for them, that's good enough. And I have some compassion for that. There's certain things you and I would say, well, that's a mystery. We can't fully understand it. But there's a difference between a contradiction, a direct historical problem, heretical teachings,

and mystery. These are not the same things. So I just want to point out for people, we're not even arguing that the historic Christian view is true. We're trying out differences. And the historic Christian view, hence John 1 and Colossians 1 15 through 16, Jesus is an eternal uncreated member of the Godhead or the Trinity. That language is added later, but the Bible teaches this. He didn't become a God, always was and always will be. So to say that we are ontologically the same as Jesus is really just to insult the character of God on the highest level.

So yes, Jesus is God who took on human flesh and we share that in commonality with Jesus. But the way you talk about Jesus coming from heavenly father and heavenly mother makes us equivalent at least for a season and completely eliminate. the ontological difference between us and Jesus, which has been a part of the historic Christian faith going back to the beginning. You're absolutely right. In fact, there's a phrase that some leaders have used that God, angels, and men are all of the same species. That's a phrase that they have used. God's angels and men are all of the same species. And I've often explained to Latter-day Saints, this is where we have a real huge divide because the last thing I want to worship is a big one of me. And really, if I were to become a God, one thing great about the God we worship,

we look at him as being all holy, all righteous. And because of that, he can rightfully demand of us that we be holy because he is holy. Am I, if I were to become a Latterty saint and become a God, would any Latterty Saint listening to this, if they were to become a God, are they going to have the gall to tell their offspring that they shouldn't sin when they know they did? You see the problem of that? Isn't that just utter hypocrisy? Are they going to threaten their offspring as the God of Mormonism does with them, that if they don't live up to all these standards, that they're going to be put in a lower level of heaven in the next life. I mean, they did that. And yet they're going to expect something more from their alleged offspring. If Mormonism happens to be true, I know, boggles of the mind. Bill, one of the other big issues we have to talk about is a relationship between grace,

faith, and works. And of course, even within the historic Christian church, you'll find some differences between, say, Catholicism and between, say, Orthodox and Protestant. But what are the key differences you would say between the historic Christian faith? Or if you want to just make it distinguish between evangelicalism and Protestantism, that's fine, compared with what Mormonism has taught. Want to keep God's word with you wherever you go? The King James Bible study KJV app by Salem Media makes it easy to read, study, share, and pray daily with the timeless KJV. translation.

Enjoy features like offline access, audio Bible listening, smart search, and tools to highlight bookmark and take notes, all designed to keep your Bible studies simple and organized. Best of all, it's free to download in the Google Play Store. Growing your faith every day. Search for King James Bible Study, KJV, and download the app today. Thought about that dynamic. Yeah, the LDS Church does have a doctrine of grace, but even the doctrine of grace needs to be defined.

The benefits of this grace. grace, the grace that forgives you of your sins, can only be gained as you keep the commandments and you repent. I have here, this is the current manual that is used by LDS missionaries. And on page 31, this is what it says. Because of Jesus' atoning sacrifice, we can be forgiven and cleansed of our sins as we repent. Now think about that. No Latter-day Saint that I have ever met has stopped repenting. In other words, they would need to stop repenting, you would think, if they're effectively

keeping all the commandments every minute of the day. Why repent if you're keeping all the commandments? But it says here that you are cleansed as you're. you repent, that means your forgiveness is incremental. What if you were to overlook one of your sins and didn't repent of it? Are you still culpable? Well, LDS leaders have said you are. Well, if you forget one, you didn't ask for forgiveness of that or you haven't stopped doing it. Maybe you're not aware, you know, that you're an admonious. boar and need to repent of all that. Maybe you think that's normal behavior. Why would you repent

if you think it's normal behavior? But yet, if you're going to get your forgiveness in this incremental manner, you can never know if all your sins are forgiven. And that must be a horrible burden for the Latter-day Saint that reads things like this and reads other things that their leaders have put out. And they realize, I'm not living up to this. This is why, why when I ask latter day saints, if they were to die right now, do you have the assurance that all of your sins are forgiven and that you would get the best your religion offers you? Which of course they would know that's celestial exaltation. Rarely, rarely do I ever have a latter-day saint tell me with a sure affirmation. Yep, I have no doubt whatsoever.

I did have one guy in Mantai say something similar. He told me he was keeping all the commandments, but the problem was his wife was standing right there. And I all had to do would just turn to her and say, really? He keeps all the commandments? And she kind of sheepishly shook her head like, no. Well, none of us keep all the commandments. That's why we need to look to the cross. He paid it all. And that's what's really offensive about Mormonism is because what they're teaching their people is that Jesus didn't pay at all. If there was something left that you need to do to complete the puzzle. We don't think that way, because even if we could offer the best work we could muster up, it would still be tainted by our fallenness. How does that impress an

all holy God? And yet that's what Mormons are doing. And the fact that they're doing these works in order to get something from God, in this case exaltation, shows that they're doing it out of a selfish motive. For Mormonism, selfishness is a sin. Why would this be any different? And that's, that's why the gospel of grace in the New Testament is just really, as the song says, it is amazing. We can't even fathom how amazing it is until we really look at ourselves in the sinfulness that we, that we have. And again, in saying that, I'm not trying to say that Mormons are bad people. I'm merely saying that we're well, we're all kind of bad people. When you think about it, they're not any worse.

I have in fact, I've told many Latter-day Saints, you're probably a better person than I am. And that's to be commended, but are you good enough? And I would have to say, no, none of us are good enough. We all have to come to the foot of the cross and recognizing that Jesus paid completely for our sins. There's nothing that he did not cover when he paid for that, when he paid that price.

Bill, that's really helpful to make that clarification of what grace covers. And then as Ephesians 2 8 through 10 says, then we do works out of being a new creation and the grace that God has given us through faith, which is very different than 2nd Nephi 25, 23 that says we have grace after all that we can do. How do you ever... Moroni 1032, deny yourself of all ungodliness. then his grace is sufficient for you. Well, that's not comforting to me.

Okay. I have never denied myself of all ungodliness. And I think most Latter-day Saints, if they were asked that question in a crowded room, they would be honest and say they haven't either. And if that verse is to be taken as gospel truth, and it is used by LDS leaders that way, you must overcome all these sins

before you get the grace that forgives you of yourself. sins. It's not that they don't have grace up until that point that helps them keep the, keep the commandments and such. But they don't get the grace that forgives them of their sins until after they've accomplished all that's necessary. And Moroni 1032 spells it out for them. Bill, my hope was to walk through with you. And I think we have the person of Jesus, the character of God, grace and works. We talked some about the scriptures and the differences that are there, some of the nature of man. Did I miss any key doctrinal differences that you want to highlight here? I think we pretty much cover all that you wanted to cover. And these are all the important ones.

And it's a good point that we're talking about that because these are our subjects that I think need to be brought up in a conversation. Maybe not the first conversation. You probably aren't going to cover them all. but oftentimes whenever I'm doing what we call stranger evangelism, I want to get to the heart of the matter with them as soon as I possibly can. This is why I'm a bit reluctant to go off on a lot of historical rabbit trails because, one, they probably haven't read some of the things that I would be bringing up that bother me. So I want to find out where is this Latter-day Saint right now in light of eternity? And the only way I'm going to know that is by asking them questions. And I like to focus on the forgiveness issue. And this is why you can't really claim that you're a Christian unless your sins are forgiven.

Amen. Well, if a Latter-day saint doesn't know if his sins are forgiven, isn't he being a bit presumptuous to assume he's a Christian? I think it makes sense. If Jesus, as it says in Matthew 1, came to save his people from their sins and they don't know if they're saved from the penalty of them. their sins, then how can they honestly believe consistently that they are one of his people? That's what I want to get across to the Latter-day Saint. I'm not trying to say I'm better than you are because I'm not, but I want them to see that none of us can do what's necessary to earn our own salvation, even with this grace that Mormons claim that they have. They still come short.

which go right along with Romans 3. You know, Bill, is it fair to say, I see as you do in my conversations that there's a number of people as a part of the LDS church who really want to affirm, we believe in Jesus, we believe in the gospel, we breathe in grace. And they will articulate what, at least on the service, what sounds a lot like evangelical beliefs. And they might actually hold some of those evangelical beliefs. But what's holding them back is the leadership. So if there's this shifting, then the leadership needs to own it and repent and change of their beliefs. Because people might say, well, you are calling out prophets and apostles from the past and maybe some today. And your point is, according to the historic Mormon faith, they are leaders and they speak with authority until the current authority says we have shifted and here's why.

Is that fair? Do you agree with that? I totally agree. I've been saying for years that I think the LDS leadership owes their members a lot of public repentance for the false thinking, things that they have been teaching over the years. You don't usually see LDS leaders do that. Well, they might say, well, we're like everybody else. We make, you know, silly mistakes. And usually I find whenever they admit something like that, it's usually in their childhood. It's not something that they're doing now.

And of course, you know they are because we all do. But I think they do need to repent of a lot of things. If you want my short list, I think they need to repent of the lie of the first vision. I think they need to repent of the lie of the gold plate story. I think they need to repent of a lot of the things that Joseph Smith taught and did. and somehow they excuse him. Can you imagine if the current leader of the church was doing the things that Joseph Smith did? Do you think a lot of modern Latter-day Saints would line up behind them?

I don't think so. But yet for some reason, a lot of Latter-day Saints turn a blind eye to this man's horrible behavior, especially when it comes to the subject of polygamy and lying to his wife Emma about the wives that he had married. secretly. I've often said publicly, I'm not ashamed to say it again. A man that will lie to his wife will lie to anybody. There you go. You cannot trust this man. And when I hear leaders get up and talk about the virtue of Joseph Smith, I just can't help but just shake my head. Well, I appreciate your clarity on this. Would you, if somebody does a good faith response to this, and I've had some interactions with members of the LES Church.

Most are gracious and kind and interact in a way we would want anybody to interact, but have had my fair share of attacks and criticisms. If there's a number of good faith responses, would you and or Eric Johnson or someone from your team come back and consider responding to some of those claims? Oh, yeah. Yeah, we'd be glad to. Okay. Awesome. What would you say to somebody who stayed with us?

and either a Christian who has a friend who's a Mormon or somebody who's in the LDS church right now and heard this and kind of goes, well, maybe I haven't heard this before. I'm a little unsettled. What steps should I take next? Well, I think from our point of view, we should not look at Latter-day Saints as the enemy. And I know that's easy to do, and we shouldn't. I tend to view them when I'm talking to, I'm looking at what I believe to be is a victim of the Mormon establishment. They probably don't know a lot of things about their faith. And that's a question I've often asked many Latter-day Saints. If I were to put a circle on a piece of white paper and you were to fill in that circle, according to all you know about your religion, how much with that circle would you fill in?

Be surprised. A lot of them say, I'd probably have a lot of white area. So in other words, you're admitting there could be a lot of things about your faith that you're not aware of. That if you heard about these things, it might make you reconsider. That's good. That's an honesty. And I think as a Christian, I want to be as vulnerable as I should be on that. My circle when it comes to Christianity would probably have a lot of white space too. And so we both have to be vulnerable in this area.

But don't look at the Latter-day Saint as an enemy. And I'm hoping, too, if there's a Latter-day Saint listening, don't look at us as the enemy. We're merely telling you what your church has said. If you have a problem with it, it's not really a problem with us. It's a problem with the church. I've often asked Latter-day Saints, does it honor God to believe something that's not true? Great question. They have to think about it, but eventually they'll say, no, I don't believe it honors.

God to believe something that's not true. And then my next question is, well, how would you know if you are believing something that's not true? Well, with us, it's always about evidence. It's difficult for a Latter-day Saints because it's so subjective. But if I were to present a case showing some major conflicts between Joseph Smith, what the Bible says, or even historical issues, I would hope that the Latter-day Saint really believes it doesn't honor God to believe something that's not true, that they would see, I've pointed out a lot of things that their church is teaching. That's not true. What are you going to do about that? If you don't think it honors God, I would think the next step is you need to do something like maybe get out of the Mormon church, maybe help your friends get out of the Mormon

church. You're going to have to repent and ask God to forgive you for believing a lot of the errors that Joseph Smith and all those that came after him have been teaching their people. And of course, God is eager and willing to forgive their sins. Yes, you know. In 1 John 1 9, he is faithful and will forgive those who ask without any, you know, holding back whatsoever. You don't have to earn it. Just ask and God has grace for you.

That's what the Bible teaches about God's grace because it stems from the character of the God who separates our sins as far as the east is from the West. as described in the Old Testament, and we see the compassion of that God in the person and character of Jesus Christ, especially towards those who've been manipulated or marginalized or hurt in some fashion. Bill, I send people all the time to mrm.org, the podcast, the articles, you guys have a heart for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and you do great scholarship as well. so it is always my go-to resource for people, mrm.org.

And I co-edited a book with one of your colleagues, Eric Johnson. Some people don't know this. It's called Sharing the Good News with Mormons, and it's a compilation of different approaches to reach out to members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Folks, before you click away, make sure you hit subscribe. This is a topic we're going to come back to.

And if there's something else specifically on this topic, You want Bill and I to cover or me to cover as it relates to Mormonism. Comment below and let us know. We'd love to have you come study with us at Biola University. We do full courses on world religions and full weekends on Mormonism to educate and train you. We've got information below that the top rated master's program in apologetics. If you're not ready for masters, but you're like, I want some training. We have a totally updated certificate program where we will walk you through some lectures.

give you just some basic assignments to learn apologetics from some of the top apologists in the world. There's a big discount below. Bill, thanks for all your work. Thanks for coming on. Really enjoyed this conversation. It's my pleasure, Sean. Thank you for those kind words. They mean a lot to us. And just pray for you and your ministry and do pray for members of the LDS Church. Thanks, brother. Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that follow button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning in haven't done this yet. And it makes a huge difference in helping us reach and equip more people and build community.

And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every review helps. Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where we have on campus and online programs in apologetic, spiritual information, marriage and family, Bible, and so much more. We would love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and defend the Christian faith today. And we will see you when the next episode drops. Hello, hello, Punez Petway here, co-host of the Your Daily Bible Verse podcast. Are you someone who loved to take a deep dive into God's word, one verse at a time to explore his will for your life, and desire to draw closer to him?

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