The Sean McDowell Show - My Mom, Billie Jean & Michael Jackson’s Stalker | The Untold Story

Episode Date: June 9, 2026

The Michael Jackson hit is one of the most recognizable songs in pop history. What most people don't know is that the woman behind the song was a real person with a real family. La Nej is a chaplain, an apologetics teacher, a Biola grad, and someone I've known since the mid-90s. She's also the daughter of the woman the world remembers as Billy Jean. In this conversation La Nej walks through her childhood: being told Michael Jackson was her father, camping outside his Encino gate at age seven, getting abandoned in a taxi the next morning, the years in and out of foster care, the abuse, and the aunt who adopted her at twelve. *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [smdcertdisc] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA:  Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en I nstagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

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Positive, encourage. You probably can't escape this anywhere you go, can you? My pastor and his wife were in Israel. She'd text me. She was like, we're in a coffee shop. And Billy Jean is playing. This is crazy. What does the public know about your mom?

They would say that she's a stalker. That she used to break into Michael Jackson's house. That she claimed to have kids of his. In her mind, this was the truth. Because that's who Michael was to me. She always told me that that's your dad. Michael's your dad. I'm not exactly sure what was the catalyst.

Like, why was Michael the one that she chose? to fantasize about and it's been journey in itself to even get even getting sitting here with you has been the lord open door after door Michael Jackson's 1983 mega hit song billy jean was partly named after your mom we're going to go into your story but maybe you could tell us why you wouldn't let your kids listen to billy jean growing up for me it was not just a song for me it was a reminder of my entire childhood. So Billy Jean was mom and she'd always told us that's who she was. She'd always told us that's what the song, what he wrote about. And so hearing it was almost like reliving parts of like your childhood and all of the things that that song entailed. And I didn't,

I wasn't even ready at the time to explain it to my kids. Like why, why this had such a weight for me. what it meant, you know, because they didn't, they didn't, they never met her. And they didn't know all of my story. They knew bits and pieces, but they really didn't understand the full picture. And so for, you know, and they're little at the time. Of course. Yeah. And so I didn't, I just didn't want that to be part of their childhood. And I think that's maybe what it was, is separating the childhoods. That was my childhood and that was my, my experience, but I don't want that to be their childhood because it can be so overshadowing, I think. And honestly, and it was a lot of fear.

It was a fear of opening this up, you know, and talking about this too much. So, because we always lived like this was just something you don't talk about. Oh, wow. Okay. Now, we're going to get into your story. And Billy Jean, for some people are going, wait a minute, what is this song even about? She was also referred to as Michael Jackson stalker, which we will get to. I remember the first time you were sharing this with me, and I was blown away about it.

There's a redemptive arc to your story that's so powerful because I think some people were thinking, why are we sharing this story on an apologetic channel? Where is this going? We will fill in some of those gaps. But we were sitting there this morning. It was you and your husband, Matt, who was one of my basketball teammates here years ago, in the 90s at Biola. And I'm sitting there thinking, you know what?

This song is going to come on. There were 80 songs that were on. And I'm like, it's just going to come on. You probably can't escape this anywhere you go, can you? No, it's funny. My pastor and his wife were in Israel. And I told her we had them over for dinner one night. And we kind of told them all of my testimony.

And they were in Israel. and she'd text me. She was like, we're in a coffee shop. And Billy Jean is playing. This is crazy. I was like, yeah, it's everywhere. So not only it happened, but she felt the need to let you know that it happened. Okay, so, again, this story, all I can say is the word that comes to mind is I was flabbergasted because I've known you and your husband back in the 90s, maybe two years ago we were sitting down.

You're sharing this to me. And I'm like, wait a minute, what is happening? But before we get to it, tell us why are you sharing your story now? Well, like I said, there was a fear of always kind of letting it out. But I think the biggest thing is mom just passed away two years ago. And it was almost like a release, you know, because we didn't want this to bring light to her negatively. She already has enough, you know, negative attention from her past. And so I never, I didn't want to add to that or add to her own experience.

And so it just, it didn't feel right. Also, you know, I have kids and I'm doing life, really, you know, doing life and doing ministry and working and traveling. And so it just, it wasn't, it didn't feel like the right time. And I really didn't feel like the release to say, okay, you know, because I told parts of my testimony and child. and have told more over the years, but it just didn't feel like the right time until she passed away and kind of reconciling like your whole childhood

when you step back and you go, okay, I think it's time now. And so that was really the, I'd say two years ago, because I'd always thought about writing it and I'd always wanted to share more. But that's when it was like, okay, I think this is time. You felt permission to do so, just personally in relation.

with the other people in your life. And we talked about this a little bit. Like once you share the story, you can't put the genie back in the bottle or the toothpaste back in the bottle, whatever metaphor we want to use. It's out there. So you've thought a lot about your family,

your life, your ministry, and felt like now is the time you want to share the story. And not just to share the story because it's dramatic. And it is. It's a drama-filled, powerful story. But the redemptive arc,

and you and I especially do the MA-Fill program together in the early 2000s, there's an apologetics philosophy angle to who you are and what brought you to Christ. We're going to get to that. But let's start kind of at the beginning. What does the public know about your mom? So if they were to Google her,

they would say that she's a stalker, that she used to break into Michael Jackson's house, that she claimed to have kids of his. and that she sued them and sued his kids. I think she sued blanket. I want to say, I'm going to say like a billion dollars or some mill. It was after Michael passed away that she sued them again. So the public knows her as someone that, you know, has been his stalker

and kind of to probably terrorize the family a little bit, which is hard in my mind. because I know her, you know, like this little person, but so that's, so it's, it's, it's all negative. And they probably, they know her of someone who's mentally ill because the things that she says and the claims that she makes are so outrageous. And so, and to make it towards Michael Jackson is just, it's outrageous. So I would say that's who people know her as.

Yeah. That's fair that they would have that. I was reading, there's an article. I mean, just the week. we're recording this and the title was was there a real billy gene here's what we actually know 40 years later so this is one of the most recognizable you know rock songs of all time i mean everybody knows it my kids know it and there are you know two generations removed from this song and just last week they're talking about it and what the way they describe i'll read the way they described and i want to get your

reaction. There's debate about whether the song Billy Jean is really about just kind of the groupies that would follow Michael Jackson. That narrative was put out there. But then in the 1991 biography, which is called The Magic and the Madness, Randy Tarabarelli, according to multiple reports, said the singer allegedly began receiving multiple letters from a woman, claimed that he'd fathered a child with her two years before the song was released, despite the two having never met. Then it says the letters kept coming and began to take a negative toll on Jackson's mental health. Thanks finally reached your breaking point after the fan sent a package to his home that included

a picture of her and a gun with instructions to kill himself at a certain time. This is from the root.com. In return, she'd do the same to her and their alleged child so they could all reunite in the next lifetime together. Thankfully, the woman didn't go through with it. Jackson later found out that she'd been sent to a psychiatric ward. Now, at the bottom of this, they're like, we don't really know the events. We're not sure, but it makes a song compelling, which is a separate issue.

What's your reaction when you hear this just last week? Like, people are not going to stop talking about this. Well, I never heard that about the gun. I didn't know that she'd sent him in. anything in the mail or anything like that. But I know that she made these claims. I know that she believed these claims. And in her mind, this was the truth.

Because that's who Michael was to me. Like, she always told me that that's your dad. Michael's your dad. So I know that she believed them. So it's kind of, I guess it makes a little bit of sense because I knew they were always afraid of her. And so the gun thing, I think that's, I wonder if that's connected to her. Could be, I mean, who knows?

You know, when you're mentally ill and you have a false sense of reality, you do all types of things. And so, worst thing you can do is lie to your child. And so to me, the lying to the children is way worse than the threatening of a gun, if that makes sense. Yeah, no, it does. And part of this is clearly unraveling what's true, what's fiction, what's made up. and you've got a story to tell and we're going to unpack some of this. So the version of your mom, and I mean, gosh, and as I remember probably when I was in the 80s hearing about Michael Jackson's stalker

and it was all over the news and it was always somebody out there, it feels very distant. And I don't remember, but probably the time I was like, wow, that person is probably crazy, didn't give it a second thought. And then all of a sudden you're sharing with me, oh, no, Sean, that's my mom. I like that goosebumps and was like, okay, wait a minute, this is a, a real person. This is a real story. And somehow, like, I'm connected to this. So you've talked about the public image of your mom. Maybe pull back the veil a little bit and tell us who she was to you.

And maybe something about her you would want people to know apart from what they read on Google or have heard maybe on YouTube or something. Mom struggled with her illness and with having children. and being a single woman, I'm sure, contributed a lot to why she made some of the decisions that she made. And I'm not exactly sure what was the catalyst. Like, why was Michael the one that she chose to fantasize about? I do remember one time when we were in our apartment, we were living in Palantine in Illinois, where a thriller was playing on the TV. And she would like love to see me like sing and do.

dance to that, you know. And so I knew. So you're eight or ten years old like a kid. Yeah. Even young. I had to be. I was maybe like seven. Oh, wow. And so she would love to have like that playing and, you know, and I used to

grow up saying, too, I'm going to be a singer when I grew up. Like, that's what I wanted to be. And she loved that. That that's what, you know, my dreams were. And so, but she was, like, I know she loved us. I know she, like, she loved her kids. But I also know. this illness was so overshadowing to her love normally for a child that that's why we had the

childhood that we had. That's why she did the things that she did was because of the mental illness. And I knew it was a struggle. Like I even have, I still have voice recordings from her. I still have letters from her. And at times I can hear she's lucid where she says, Lenej, I love you. And she'll apologize.

Oh, my goodness. And then I have voice recordings where she's cussing me out and telling me, you know, your problems are because Michael's mad at you. And Michael's the reason if you had treated, you know, his wife better, you know, Michael would have been better to you. And so, like, I know, like, that's who she is. She struggled with that, that, you know, those tensions. And I would say she struggled with it all the way up until the day that she died. So you described growing up with a single mom, your biological dad. What do you know about him?

When did you learn that, like actually, frame it this way. What do you know about your biological father? And it sounds like you really believed that Michael was your father for a while. When did you hear that? How much did you believe that? Like help us understand that piece of the puzzle. So these are like multiple. layers. Like, it gets crazy.

You want to get into. So the one layer was that Michael was my dad and I even brought like letters that she wrote for me from prison. So like this one is, she says, I'm at the police station by the Van Nuys courtroom, due in court now. And then so she wrote me this letter and or this postcard and she talks about mommy and, you know, we miss you and we're going to go home soon. And home was Michael Jackson's address. Actually put it on there. Yes. So some of these I didn't get until after.

When did these date from? So this had to be, this was. I mean, even just roughly, if you had to. Oh, I don't even know when, I don't know, maybe she. This is October 30th, 1995. So she was still, yeah, so I was just graduate. So you're a student at Biola at that point. And so we were very protective.

She never really knew where I lived. She didn't know really anything about me because in foster care was always the danger that she was going to come kidnap up me and try to take me back home. And the same with my younger brother and sister. So there was always this fear like Mommy can't know where we are. And so even some of these letters after I got adopted, they kept some of these from me. But I already knew everything. Like she had already told me all of this when we talked to her. So that was the understanding of who Michael was.

And I remember one time I was in a police station and I was standing there with the twins. It's my younger brother and sister. And he said, well, you know, little girl, where's your parents? Where's your home? Like, who do you kind of belong to? And I looked at him and I said, well, Michael Jackson's my dad.

And like at first they kind of chuckled, but then they were like, oh, she believes this she believes this yeah so that that had to be if you're a christian man struggling with porn there's a good chance this is something you've never fully talked about maybe you've prayed about it asked for forgiveness promised yourself this would be the last time and yet it keeps coming back not because you don't love god and not because you don't want to change but because for many men this isn't just a habit it's a pattern wired into the subconscious almost like a loop that keeps repeating And that's why even sincere, disciplined men can feel stuck in the same cycle for years.

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My birth father, I actually didn't meet until I was 19 until I was at Biola. Oh, my goodness. And that's the other side of my story dealing with the nation of Islam because he was part of the nation of Islam. And mom worked for Elijah Muhammad and their offices. I know. It gets... I know. Keep going.

It gets insane. And so I actually grew up. My name was... My name was Lenej. But because we were, you know, converted to a nation of Islam, I was actually Amina Muhammad. And so it was Amina. And then my younger brother and sister were Ansar and Aisha, Muhammad. So by the time that I met him at 19, I knew, oh, this.

This is the dad that's part of the nation of Islam because that's when she met him. And that's who the twins father was someone else who was in Chicago. And they were part of the nation of Islam. So we have like a whole separate family that has deep roots in Islam. So I want to circle back to that piece of Islam because this ties into some of the reasons why you're Christian, your study and apologetics. But you're raised by a single mom, but you also described foster care. So what are some of your early memories and being with your mom and roughly how old were you when you shifted into the foster care system?

So I was in and out of foster care starting at three years old. And some of them I don't remember why. And I assume it's because she was struggling with her illness. I had an older brother who was a runaway and was abused. I believe she abused him pretty badly because he. his birth father also abused her. And so he was always in and out of our homes and always, you know, getting into trouble. And so that's kind of like that was kind of the family dynamics.

What was the other part you asked me? You said. I was asking about when what your life was like with your mom growing up, what memories you have. And then when you enter the foster care system. But you said at three, you are kind of coming in and out. So that means you're in a foster care system back with your mom. Like that was kind of a process. It was kind of the norm to be in and out.

And it wasn't until the final time where she dropped us off at the, well, it's a longer story, but at that police station where I was in the foster care system permanently with the twins. And so then that was from seven years old. At seven years old you were. Okay, tell that story of how she dropped off there and what happened. So we were, we left Chicago and we were on our way. She told us we're going home. home. And the reasons why were some of the trouble that she's gotten into in Palatine and

some of the abuse that I was experiencing that the social services were now aware of. And they, I'm pretty sure they were like coming probably to get us. She had already abandoned us one time for a couple of weeks where I was taking care of the twins by myself at seven. And some of the neighbors kept stopping by, like why, where's your mom? You know, Mina, where is she? And I just say she's coming back, she's coming back, but after, you know, week after week, she wasn't there. And so she finally did come back and she got us and she took us on Amtrak train. I'll never forget from Illinois to California. And we had no money.

And I remember sitting on the train. I think she had something like $60. I don't even know why I remember that number. But we were sitting on the train and the guy, the conductor, looked at us and he said, where are your tickets? and she said, we don't have any tickets. And he let us stay on the train. Amazing.

And ride free all the way to Los Angeles. Wow. And so then that's when we went from, you know, from Amtrak Station in Los Angeles up to Encino to Michael Jackson's house. And we lived outside, like in the dirt, the four of us. Okay, so make sure I'm tracking. You're on the train with $60, you, your mom, and... The twins. And the twins, which is a brother and a sister, and they're younger than you?

Yes. Two, they are four or five? How old were they? No, they were like, I don't know, maybe two. Oh, so they're five years younger than you. Yes. Okay. They're six years younger.

Six years younger. So you come out to California, first stop, go straight to Michael Jackson's house and start just living out there? We go to his house and she proceeds to walk us in the gate. Oh, wow. Because for her, we're going home. And so we get. And I don't know any different. We have bags, and I had to carry one of the twins,

and I carried my brother because my sister was a little chubbier. And we walk in the gate, and then all of the guards, you know, swarm us. And they knew who she was before, because she'd broken in before. And so we kind of set up camp across, you know, across the, in front of his gate outside, waiting for him to let us come home. Okay, when you say set up camp, like help me picture that. We just had it. What's funny is I remember sitting out there.

Honestly, what I remember is like playing with snails. Like, I remember just. It's funny the things we remember, isn't it? Just sitting there, like, they were just like little snails. And I just remember us sitting there. And the twins were just kind of sitting on the ground, like on a blanket. And we were just waiting. And mom kept trying to go to the gate, kept trying to talk to someone.

and we just waited. And then we would get hungry and we would go to a restaurant and she would order and we wouldn't have enough money. And I think they would feel sorry for us, you know, to see this family and this lady with these kids.

Oh my goodness. And people would, they would feed us. Wow. And sometimes we'd be in the booths for hours and hours just sitting there. And I know she was trying to strategize, like trying to figure out, what to do. So that was a few weeks of that, of back and forth. Randomly, I think one time we

went to a hotel, we didn't have any money. They kicked us back out. We went back to, you know, sitting in front of Michael's house. And there were times, it's funny, there were times where the gate would open and someone would come out and they would give us money. And I, if my memory serves correctly, I do remember Michael's mom came. out one time and gave money. And because remember, he's Michael Jackson, so we weren't even the only ones out there. Oh, that makes sense. I didn't even think about that.

So there were like other people, you know, trying to get a glimpse, trying to take a picture. Like dozens of people, just in and out and crowds and like nonstop flow of just. Yeah. Just randomly people around. Some of the people, you know, knew her. And so, yeah, every now again, the gate would open. And I remember one time of that. I do believe his mom gave us money and one of his sisters,

but I don't remember which one. All I remember thinking is she was so pretty. I just don't remember which sister was. But I do have this odd memory of someone driving out dressed up funny, like almost like a clown weird thing. And everyone ran, like mom ran, and they knew it was Michael. Because he used to dress up. And now, you know, all of this stuff doesn't click.

until you get older and you realize, oh, that was that person that was dressed up like that because he wanted to be able to go around town and drive himself. But if they recognized him, and so I do remember that one time, like, Mom ran to the car and I don't know what they talked about. So if you're seven, I'm guessing we're about the same age, roughly. So this is probably 82, 83, which is probably the year that the song, Billy, Gene came out as a part of thriller, would have been 83. So that's the time you were out there for probably two weeks, as best you can tell,

just kind of basically living on the streets, getting food from whoever will pay for you. And it sounds like there were a few angels that just could tell here's a hurting, needing family. And even Michael Jackson's family came out and sometimes specifically gave money, probably just felt bad and wanted to help on some level. Okay. So did that for two weeks. And at this point, you truly believe.

he's your dad. That's what you'd been told. And at seven, of course, you believe what's told to you. So you're probably having some... Seven or eight. Seven or eight. Okay. So you have some anticipation of like eventually we're going into this beautiful mansion. I mean, your hopes were high. What happened at the end of that two weeks? So it was one night we were, she hailed a cab down and we'd actually gotten lice really bad. And so that's That was a whole experience. And so she hailed this cab down. And we were in the cabin.

It was late at night. And the cab got a flat tire. And she asked the cab driver, can we sleep in the cab? And he said, yes. And so he pulled over and he let the four of us sleep in the back of his cabin. And he slept in the front seat. And early in the morning, she tapped me and she said. Make sure you lean in.

We don't want to admit. Oh, yes. Yeah. So he, you know, she said, yes, we get sleep in the cab. And it was early in the morning. And she tapped me and said, I'm going to go make a phone call. And I said, okay, sleepily, and then, you know, fell back asleep. And maybe it was about an hour or something later.

The cab driver worked me up. And he was like, little girl, where's your mom? And I said, she went to make a call. He was like, that was a long time ago. Where is she? My goodness. And I said, I don't know. And that was the last time that we,

saw her outside of supervised visits or but that was the catalyst for us to be permanently placed in foster care and it was a few years after that where Illinois severed her rights her parental rights through the court system so this is how you ended up in the police station the next step is the cab drivers like you don't have anybody caring for you police station process get into a family so from seven through you mentioned being adopting what was What was that process? So that was after a lot of foster homes and a lot that weren't necessarily good and family.

And I'm sure, like thinking back, like even my family that wasn't able to keep me, you know, it's difficult. You know, kids have a lot of baggage. And my baggage also came with a woman that you never knew if she was going to show up at your house. and that was going to harass you to try to get her daughter back. And so it was hard, I'm sure, for family to keep me. But it was the last foster home that was just, it was very abusive. I could have potentially got really, really bad. Where I called an aunt and I said, you know, this is bad.

How old were you at this point? 12. You were 12. Were the twins with you or it was just? No, so we'd been separated. which I love that they don't separate siblings now, but we'd been separated. And they were taken in by another aunt and uncle,

and they were raised in Georgia. But LeVon fought them as well, trying to get parental rights back. And at one point, she did, and she was able to take them away, and they had to fight to get them back. So that was kind of our childhood. It was in and out,

and not just living in the system, but the system fighting her not to continue to do more harm. So seven years old, abandoned in a taxi, going to the foster care system, separated from your siblings. At 12, you said the abuse got so bad you called an aunt. What happened when you were 12? So the last foster home was by a lady and her, and she had two children. I believe her boyfriend that was living at the house at the time. And I actually had just found some of the letters that my aunt wrote to the social worker, Joyce Dyson.

I'll never forget. You remember? Yes, our social worker for years and years. And she wrote Joyce to say, I need to get my niece out. She's telling me odd things that are happening at the home and things that sound like there's going to be some physical abuse that's going to start happening, and she was really concerned about the sexual abuse that could occur in the home. And, you know, the foster mother was incredibly mean. I shared a story at the Stand-A-Reason conference about one night I was having dinner,

and she made like this fried fish. And, you know, kids, fried fish, that sounds amazing. And as a kid, you know, you feel your plate up and you eat it, and your eyes are bigger than your stomach, so you think you can eat more. And so I put more fish on my plate. And then I couldn't finish it. And I said, oh, you know, I'm full. I can't eat anymore.

And she said, you will finish it. And so I sat there. And the fish sat on the plate. And it gets cold and soggy. And I sat there. And she was yelling and cussing and pacing back and forth. And she came and sat in front of me. she was like you.

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Or just search Nelson Whiting Online. We'll eat it, and it probably had to be an hour, two hours, if not. And I said, I'm not eating it. And I just sat there, and then she began to force feed the fish, and I began to gag and throw up. And then she began to force feed to throw up. And then, you know, what happens is you begin to throw up even more.

And that was kind of the final straw for me. I was like I'm... For sure. Yeah. I'm all done with this home. Yeah. And so I did. I called my aunt and I didn't tell her.

I told her that this was bad and I had been telling her some of, you know, the things that were going on. But they really limited... They only wanted me to have phone calls with my family twice a month. And my aunt was trying to get, you know, twice a week and they were really fighting back for me to have any communication. And so I decided in my head and I didn't tell me. my aunt is at the time, but I decided in my head after I called her, if she didn't come in two weeks, I was going to run away on the street to New York. And so she was fighting. And what's amazing is when I hear what she was experiencing on the other end of how the Lord was working. And that was

one of the big things that I shared was oftentimes we're in these situations and we don't see where are you got in the midst of this, you know, because I could seem like this forgotten child, this random corner in New York, no one cares about you anymore. And it could feel like the world is against you. But then when you see the Lord's perspective, how he was moving pieces on the other end from New York to California,

how he was orchestrating events so that I could be rescued. And that was the other part of the stories showing how she was working. My aunt was working to get classes, you know, because she never wasn't married, didn't have children but they said if you want her

you have to take foster care classes and all of this to you know prepare your and so she was like speeding she did it all trying to get all of these things done and trying to make sure and then it was at the very end of the class

and it was with Dr. Makungo Akiniella who was at some like I can't remember what I was, listen I don't remember what I wore yesterday but he was one of the ones who was really intricate in helping her like finish the classes and get all the training. And it was at the very end.

I believe the social worker was coming something like that Monday. And she found out when you bring a child into your home, they have to have like their own bedroom and own bath. And she panicked because she lived in a studio on Barham and Oakwood Apartments. And she was like, I don't have a bed for her. You know, she had like a little pull-out bed. and I believe she went to her final, you know, meeting with Makungu and, you know, finish the training.

And they said, let's pray. You know, we have to pray. And she came back to her house and her house was flooded. Oh, my goodness. So the entire, so she was on the bottom floor apartment 101. The entire building flooded. The pipes broke. And her apartment is covered.

and feces. And she has the pictures of she's just walking in the midst of this. And she's trying to pick up things. And she says all she could say was Romans. All things worked together for the good of those who love the Lord and are called according to his purpose. All things work together. And she's picking up things. And she, the management comes and they're so apologetic. You know, we're so, like, this should never happen. And, They said, we're going to move you. We're going to give you a different apartment. And sure enough, they move her upstairs to apartment 201.

Well, the second floor were two bedroom, two bath apartments. Amazing. Fully furnished. Amazing. And she said she had just enough time. She went to the store and she bought, I think, a Mickey Mouse poster. She bought a little white teddy bear, which I still have to this day, to try to do little things to make it, you know.

and the social worker came that Monday morning, and she kept ringing 101, and she said, oh, no, it's apartment 201. And the social worker came in, and she was like, oh, this is great. You're good to go. This is perfect. Yes. And it was within that, like, all of this happened within the two-week time frame.

And so that was. So your aunt is this your mom's sister? Yes. Okay. So you're 12, you move in with your aunt. lived there for how long? Oh, we lived in Barham maybe for about,

let me see, maybe about a year, maybe about a year or so. We moved because we didn't, they didn't, she didn't want me to be a part of the North Hollywood school district. Oh, okay. And so that, like, Barham was kind of like right on the border

so that you would have to go to school in Hollywood. So she's looking out for you again, moving. Is she the one who adopted you? She is. Okay, you're aunted. Okay, so from 12 when you move in, adopted by your aunt, who sounds like an angel, by the way. How much was your mom a part of it? Did you see her? Did you interact with her, like through, say, high school? It was more sporadic at that point. She was writing me maybe some letters every now and then. We tried to see her. So it was really when I got older, a little bit older in high school that we were

begin to go see her and see, like sometimes we go see her in the mental institutions. But as she got older, the fears, the paranoia became really evident. And so she was scared of us a lot of time. She was scared of everyone. And so she really began to, she isolated herself a lot, a lot. And so it was during those times, which is sad, but her paranoia actually kept her, safe because she wind up usually staying in one place. So we kind of knew where she was. So she wasn't as kind of, I want to say, active in stalking. It was kind of in and out at that point.

When you say stalking, you, Michael Jackson. So this did continue even after when you were seven and didn't see her anymore. I continued for a while. It did. I was at Biola. and my friend Amy said she was like, hey, I need to talk to you. I was like, what's up?

She was like, did you see TMZ? I'm like, no, it's on TMZ. She's like, your mom's on TMZ. I was like, mom's on TMZ. Okay. She was like, do you want to see it? I was like, nope. But, okay.

And I don't know if it was a new one. I don't know how she found out about it. So she was in and out of always. institutionalized, trying to get stable, and then kind of the urge to try to go back. But as she got older, it just physically was too much. So when did you find out and discover that Michael Jackson was not your dad? Who broke that to you? What was your response?

Tell us that story, if you will. You know, I don't think anyone, anyone ever told me. Oh. I think, I don't, like, there is not one conversation. or anyone ever said, you know he's not. Because I didn't know, no one knew who my dad was. We did have people, I do remember people going, is it possible?

And I'm like, no, I don't think so. And I think because she was so convincing, because she was a court reporter. And so her dates, I mean, she kept meticulous records. and her story never, ever changed. We would go to mental institutions. Wow. And we would sit down with the doctors.

And I will never forget we were outside. And all of us, she was sitting there with us. And the doctor, psychiatrist, leaned over and she said, is it possible that this is true? The psychiatrist said that. And we were like, hey, how do we? Deep breath. No, it's not true. No, this is.

And she was like, are you sure? Because she, like, everything is, like, matching up. So that was hard. It was hard for people because, and then she was so pretty. Like, when you, like, she didn't have the picture of what we picture as mental illness. Or a stalker, I guess, if you frame it that way. Right. Yeah.

So, like, we would visit the hospitals. And I would always say, it had been so much easier if, and this sounds awful, but for us and her children, it would have been easier if she was like. the drooling the like all of these kind of things well no you walk in there she's helping the nurses station her hair is fabulous and she's looking at me going are you eating too much you need to cut down are you dieting how you're taking care of like she her skin was meticulous and so she didn't have that like outward thing that would say you know she's mentally ill and she's articulate and she's and so it was difficult for people which is why

they allowed her so many court cases. She was even convincing some people there might be something to this. So you don't remember how old you were. You just kind of pieced it together and was like, oh, he's not my dad. Who is my dad? Like, how did that affect your thinking? Because you met him at 19, you said.

So, like, you're going through high school, junior high. When do you roughly think you kind of figured this out? And then what did that make you think about in terms of your biological dad. I think I figured it out in the foster care, knowing that he was someone so famous and knowing, and I knew who the twins' fathers was. I met him in Chicago. So I knew that wasn't their father. So they always knew that that wasn't their father. And so. Okay, so sorry. By the way, in the song, it's referring to one of the twins. Is that right?

So it says, Billy Jean is not my lover. She's just a girl who claims that I'm the one, but the kid is not my son. She says, I'm the one, but the kid is not my son. If this really is Billy Jean referring to your mom, this would be your younger brother, and you knew who the biological father was. So just kind of piecing these things together is like, wait a minute, this doesn't add up. Is that right? Yes.

and so she and so but here's what's weird about that song is sometimes she would refer to and she would tell us different sometimes it was the twins dad sometimes it was my dad and so

for me she the kid is not my son and she used to say because you would ask her like it says Billy Jean is not my lover and she would say just like he says it's his son she's talking about your daughter just like he says it's not my lover it's because I am his lover.

She was like, that's the genius behind his play on words. So she's like crafty and smart and had a way of being persuasive. She kind of thought through it all. But at other times, I think she gave different interviews, and it was one twin and not the other twin. It was all kinds of. So that piece of the story maybe changed a little bit, but the dates and other things added up.

When you talked about your aunt, it's the first time you started talking about the Lord. It's the first thing he said when the flood happened, she's just repeating Romans 8. Was she one of the key people in terms of your faith journey? And how did she become a Christian, like, you know, in terms of like your mom, did she have any faith background? So maybe start with kind of like her journey and then how that affected you. So my grandfather was a minister in New York. Okay.

And had a storefront church. Yes. Amazing. And so they'd been really. raised in the church and, you know, taught God's word, but my grandmother struggled with mental illness, which affected their marriage. And so they grew up knowing, you know, the truth about who the Lord was and at a step-grandmother, you know, that brought them in. So they'd grown up in a solid Christian home and kind of went their different ways and had their different experiences,

kind of struggling with the Lord. My mom, I'd say mom and mom, sounds like I have two moms, but my biological mom went more the Islam route and, you know, struggled with mental illness. My adoptive mom did not have that same, you know, struggle but went to more, you know, the beauty industry and all of that. And that was kind of her journey of getting back to the Lord. And so she was a big catalyst.

one of the first ones that really talked to me about who Jesus was, even as I was in and out of foster care, I'd be in and out of foster care from Chicago to New York to Los Angeles. And whenever I was in a stint in Los Angeles, there was a time where she brought me in. And for as long as she had me, she was determined, minister of the gospel, minister of the gospel. And I was in, she put me in a little Christian school in South Central

called Marie Fagan. And it was in that school that, she was just hoping, and I was in third grade, you know. Third grade. You remember it. Wow. Talking to me about Jesus. Excuse me.

Take your time. So, yes, it was during that time, you know, hearing about Jesus and I was very bold, which is probably the same. Doesn't surprise me, but keep going. But bold about who I was and about my faith in Islam. at the Christian school. And I had no problem because I was Amina Muhammad and I let all the other Christians know. Because especially that's what you're taught in Islam.

And so there was, and I was even taught at third grade how to question the truth that Christians believe. Third grade. And so like she would talk to me on the rides to school about Christianity. And the first question that stumped her maybe because she didn't know how to explain it to a third grader was how can a man be God? And she said to herself, I have to get the truth into her.

I'm just going to sing praise and worship songs. So that's what she did. We sang praise and worship songs. And it was at that story. If you're a Christian man struggling with porn, there's a good chance this is something you've never fully talked about. Maybe you've prayed about it. Asked for forgiveness.

Promised yourself this would be the last time. And yet it keeps coming back. Not because you don't love God, and not because you don't want to change, but because for many men, this isn't just a habit. It's a pattern wired into the subconscious, almost like a loop that keeps repeating. And that's why even sincere, disciplined men can feel stuck in the same cycle for years. Nelson Whiting is a clinical hypnotherapist who works specifically with Christian men to break that cycle at the root. So the struggle itself begins to lose grip. He's written a bestselling book explaining why this keeps happening and what actually leads to lasting

freedom. Download the digital version for just $7 and get free bonus training at no limits hypnotherapy.com slash book. That's no limits hypnotherapy.com slash book or search Nelson Whiting online. That's N-E-L-S-O-N-W-H-I-T-I-N-G to search online. School where one day was like a cloudy day and they said, Amina, Jesus is coming back and you're going to get left. Oh my goodness. Okay. truth. And I went home and I said, I don't want to get left behind. If Jesus comes back, am I going to be left? And she said, if you don't believe that he's your savior, you will get left. And we prayed. And I accepted the Lord. But that didn't end. Okay, so this is third grade. This is with your biological mom. No, this is with my aunt. Okay, so you're with your aunt now.

Okay, because that started. Yes. Okay. Got it. Wait, so hold on. Wait a minute. You moved in with her and you were 12. But this was just a stint.

But you visited her at times. Yes. Like in and out of foster care. Got it. Sometimes mom would come, you know, they would fight the system. She would have me back for a minute and then she would leave me. And then they, so she's workers would find out and then I'd have to go back to. So it was all of this back and forth.

So you were in third grade and prayed the prayer and did it stick? Like, can you believed it? and that was really the beginning of your journey? I do. Like, I remember the conviction. And I remember that, like, that settling with the internal witness of the Holy Spirit. Like, it was such a peace that I had that I never had that peace with Islam. And I never had that peace with Muhammad.

And so it was not a faith that I ever questioned after that. So, I mean, you're in third grade. even that when your mom had left and you're going through foster care, going through this abuse, you just still had this sense of like, Jesus with me, things are going to work out, he's coming back. Like that was an underlying theme and threat of your life. Is that accurate? I think, I don't know if I had Jesus. I knew Jesus was with me.

I don't know if I always felt like it was going to work out. Okay. When I was in one of the homes with my cousins, there was a nun that was there. and this was one of the foster home. It was like a family foster home. And I remember praying, praying and asking her and crying, sorry, praying, crying and asking like, why, why is this happening to me? Why don't I have my brother and sister? Why don't I have a mom and a dad?

Why, why, why? And she told me she was like, God loves you. She was like, I don't know why. All I know is that God loves you and he has a plan. And that was kind of. the, like I could almost get tearing now. That was, that was like, okay, like, God has a plan. But it's not like it got better after that,

because it was after that, that went to even the worst foster home. So that, that was hard. It was, it was hard years trying to figure out, not just who you are, but God, like, what? Like, where am I? Like, can I just have a little bit of normalcy? and it took a long time. Oh, my goodness.

I can only imagine. Did you say you start at Biola 95? Mm-hmm. Graduated in 1994. So, 94. Yikes. We're not supposed to say the years. I graduated high school in 94 as well, but started fall 94.

Mm-hmm. So how, like, how and why did you come to Biola? So, Mom, my aunt was a professor. At Biola? At Biola. Oh, my goodness. I did not know that. Yes.

She taught in Christian education. Wow. And so she gave me a choice to go to either a Christian high school or Christian college. And I chose Christian college. Good choice. And so when she started working at Biola, I don't even, I don't even think I didn't apply it to any other college. It was like, we got to get in here. And so, yep, that was how the Lord brought me there.

Okay. So that's incredible. And it was that same year. that you met your husband. We were talking before. Teammate of mine in the audience. Shout out, Matt. Okay, so fill in in 95 is the same year you start and you meet your dad. So it was about, I think that was the, so it was at nine to school at 94 to 95.

I believe it was in 1995 when we, I don't remember if it was the summer of 95. but I was on campus. I'm to look at some of my journals, but I was on campus. And he contacted someone in our family because our, you know, the powerless name in New York, it was not like this was ever hard to find. And he said, hey, I heard she's really cute. I'd love to meet her. Are you serious?

So I had some feelings about that. Yeah. I was pretty angry. I was. Oh, my goodness. Goodness, for a lot of reasons. Yes. And I told him.

I wrote him a very long letter. Before you met him. So I met him first because he really wanted to meet. And so my parents and I, we went to Arizona to meet him. And then found out I had all of these brothers that are all Muslim and part of the nation. These are all half brothers. Yes. Okay.

Mm-hmm. and that was interesting, especially the one brother who we looked so much alike, which that was very, it was odd to know that you have this connection. So you know these people exist, and all of a sudden you meet somebody who's roughly your age that looks like you. I can't even grasp how jarring that would be. I have no context. It was interesting. But then also, meaning all of the other.

women that were around that knew me. And so when they saw me, they all remember all of these, you know, women a part of the nation. They were like, Amina, we've missed you. Amina. I was like, my name's Lenej. Hi, nice to meet you. I'm Lenez. I'm not Amina.

My name's Lenez. Really quick. And when did you choose the name Lenez to go by that instead of Amin. I think after I got adopted, because in foster care, they kept going back and forth because I was born, Lenej. Oh, you were. Okay. And then she changed it to Amina Mohamed.

And then we went back, I mean, we went back to Lenej and then, you know, the different last names. But Lenej was, that was kind of the one that I, everyone, that was the one that I associated maybe myself with. That does feel. Yeah, that makes sense. Keep going. You're meeting your dad in Arizona. When you said your parents, now is your aunt married? She did.

So after she got me, she. wanted to adopt me, but she'd always prayed that I would have a father because my grandpa was so great. And so she was like, I don't want to raise this girl without a father. And in sent my dad. And you called him dad. I called him dad even before they got married. Yes. We are like peas in a pod. Yes. Wow. Amazing. And so they are the ones that took me to Arizona and we met them. We met my dad and my birth father. And, um, and the brothers and it was very odd. He was a little heavier set, so I was like, oh, that's where the fat jeans come from.

So, thank you. So, yeah, so that was, that was odd, but it was when I got back that, like, the anger set in. Yeah. After I saw him and the, all we want you to be a part of the, all of this now, And I just, I was like, where have you been? Like, you have no idea the life that I lived and you've been here the whole time. And you left mom and you left me. And now you want a part of my life.

And I was dating Garrison at the time and we were talking, you know, marriage eventually. And now you're saying ludicrous things. Like, you want to walk me down the aisle. Are you in, that is not a. privilege that you've earned. And sorry, but donating sperm does not give you the right. You are not my father. You know, my father has been there.

He's loved me. He's cared for me. He's spoken life into me. You know, that's my dad. And that is the only dad that will ever be a part of that wedding day and that ceremony. But then I did, and that was really the hard part for my parents was I described things that they never knew that I experienced in front. foster care, but I wanted him to know.

So that was really the first time they heard some of the things and about some of the hard abuse that happened. So that was a little hard for them. And then we kind of didn't talk about it again after that. Did you ever have a thought of becoming a Muslim or there was never even any attraction to that, even though you have all these family members that were, was that ever even like, maybe or just no. Maybe not an attraction.

I think I wanted to know what is it that you believe and why do you believe this? Because if this is who Jesus is and who is Jesus to you, and why do you believe that Muhammad is his prophet and that Jesus is just a prophet and that Jesus is not God? And then how does that reconcile us between God and man? And so there were like these questions. You had those conversations with your dad and your family. I asked them, but they didn't, it wasn't really, they didn't really have these answers.

And that, that wasn't something they wanted to talk about. They just wanted to, they wanted me to come back. They wanted me to come back to the nation. And I was like, they're, they're absolutely not. Like that was not even, it wasn't even a thought that that, because I knew it wasn't. true. And probably has been like this desire to know truth and to understand what I believe and why I believe it has always been a part of me. And I think it really stems, you know, from mom and struggling with who Billy is. And Billy is not the truth about who you are.

But yet this is the lie that has carried your whole life. And when I, it's like, especially as I was starting to write this, I want to live truthfully because the lies that you carry with you can affect your destiny and eternity. And yes, she struggled with mental illness. Yes, we have all of these other things, but this was the lie that impacted my life for so long and influenced so many things. And I want to know the truth. And I want to understand the truth. And I want to communicate the truth always. And so I think that was kind of, like as I've come full circle with this and trying to understand who she is, why I've waited, you know, for years to share it. And Lord, what is the story that you want to tell behind this? Because it can all be sensational.

You can tell all of this stuff and all of these create, but it means nothing if it's not connected to eternity because it's just a story. Like everyone has stories. I've meant kids in foster care. Everyone's got something. Your story's pretty interesting, Linne. I'm just going to say, but keep going. But I never, but that was the thing.

I didn't want it to be just a story if it's not connected. And it took a while. I think it took going, you know, getting my master's understanding, you know, philosophy and in a worldview and understanding these deeper concepts. help me fill holes into my story to where I was like, this is how you want me to communicate this. Because this is about winning people and tearing down arguments. And this, if God used this to let's tear down arguments for the kingdom,

like let's go to battle and let like we can, and if this story does it, praise the Lord. Like that's what, that's what it's for. So your husband was one of the best. basketball players I've ever played with, but I'm going to go on the record and say, you're definitely tougher than he is. There's no doubt about that. Let me circle back then.

I want to come back to what you're doing right now. Are there, so in the song, it says, Billy Jean is not my lover. She's just a girl. If I listen to this, I'm like, wait a minute, you're talking about my mom. She's not just a girl. Like, that would make me upset. If I flip around and I go from where Michael was and the accusations and apparently it affected his mental health and the concern.

I could understand why he's wanting to do everything to distance from this narrative for his life and his health and his music and everything. Do you have any animosity towards the Jackson family or towards him or what's your perspective of them now that you're on the other side of this sharing that's your story? Not an inkling. They didn't have anything. They didn't contribute to her illness. They weren't the reason for her delusion. And they are just kind of the recipients of, you know, the consequences of what she chose. And so I don't feel, I honestly, I don't feel anything kind of towards them.

They're, to me, they're just people that something happened to them. And, you know, he used that and, you know, helped him in his career. Like we all use things and we all have experiences that help determine our everyday life or that influence our behavior or, you know. And so there's no anger on my end and no, like they don't owe us anything. It's just that's what happened to him. And honestly, a part of me makes me sad. You know, it's, and I think that's the thing with Billy. Like it's like for them, it's like this woman that had all that.

But for me, it's like that I'm sorry that that that. that that's who she was to them. Like, that'd be terrifying, you know? And then I remember years I was terrified of her. We were scared of her, you know, coming in and I know her. And so for them not to know her, you know, I'm sad that that's, that has been their reality. And his kid's reality, because I know it was for years, even after he died, that she was so. If you're a Christian man struggling with porn, there's a good job.

chance this is something you've never fully talked about. Maybe you've prayed about it. Asked for forgiveness. Promise yourself this would be the last time. And yet, it keeps coming back. Not because you don't love God and not because you don't want to change, but because for many men, this isn't just a habit. It's a pattern wired into the subconscious, almost like a loop that keeps repeating. And that's why even sincere, disciplined men can feel stuck in the same cycle for years. Nelson Whiting is a clinical hypnotherapist who works specifically with Christian men to break that cycle at the root. So the struggle itself begins to lose grip.

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And so that's that that's super gracious. And that makes sense. I think the first time we were talking at this, your mom was. So let me take a step back. Michael Jackson, I think, died in 2009, 17 plus years ago. Your mom died two years ago. So around 2024, that right? I think when we first talked, she was still alive.

I think when you first shared the story with me, maybe, if I remember, remember correctly. Were you able to have some final moments with her? What was that like kind of at the end when she passed? Were you still in relationship with her, at things come full circle, or was it just kind of a painful end? It was a pretty painful end because she died in a home. Lean up in here. We want to get this.

Oh, yes. It was a pretty painful end because she died in a home. And, you know, she wanted us to take her out. She didn't want to be there. But she was difficult and it was hard, you know. And she still blamed us and said that Michael was, you know, punishing us, you know, even up to maybe a month or so before she died. And so to me it was a sad end.

You know, my aunt may say something different, but death is hard. And when someone dies, you know, kind of the way that she did and like we had to struggle with all of those serious end-of-life questions that you have to ask, it was rough. And I was not, I wasn't prepared. I'd never experienced that type of grief. And so I really wasn't prepared about how hard that would hit us. and hit my sister and I. So that was a, that was, that was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was difficult.

Um, it was really difficult for my brother, um, who'd been in prison over 30 years. Oh. And was just released, maybe three weeks before she passed and had not seen her, but still could, but, didn't get to her. Oh, so he never got to have kind of a goodbye. That would be hard. No, that was, and so, and so we, because that was always, all of our dream was to one day be in the room, like all four of us with her. And so we kind of never had that, like that closure that.

So it was hard. But she knew she, that we loved her. You did love your mom, didn't you? And my kids got to meet her. They did? Mm-hmm. So she was not a part of their life growing up, and that was probably an intentional decision. Mm-hmm.

They met her when? How did that go? They met her about the last year of her life. We brought them down two times. And no, I'm sorry, no. They did, she did meet them younger. I believe one time at a birthday party at Chuck E. Cheese when my sister was living.

Okay. Like, there was that one time. But they don't really remember that. So I would say like the last year, you know, we brought them in and they got to meet her the two times. So that was, it's like a colliding of worlds because you keep everything so separate and kind of keep this in a box and like don't let this box spill over. And that's like I'll call my sister. I'm like, my box is leaking. I need all of this.

And she knows what you mean. Yes. Oh, 100%. And she's like, I know. I'm like, we got to put this in a box. Like, I'm not ready to open that box. But that's, like, her death helped. Like, it was like the Lord was like, all of these, like, all of these are done.

Like, this is all one story and one, one kind of connection to where he was, he's helped me put all of this together to say, okay, you don't have to keep this separate. You don't have to be afraid to tell this. You don't have to be worried about what other. people will say how they will judge you what they'll think about you i'm the one that has ordained all of your steps so trust me with it all and so that's been like all right lord i'm trusting you and it's been the journey in itself to even get even getting sitting here with you has been the lord open door after door and and you know matt has been the biggest advocate and supporter of like trust the Lord, that's it.

Matt your husband. Matt my husband. Yes. Like trust the Lord. And even now, once we told my kids, they're like, oh, mom, yeah, do it. Yeah, who cares? I'm like, well, what if they say, they're like, we don't care what people say. I'm like, okay.

Wow. And so. So do you have just a few more questions that's okay? When you hear people talking about mental health, like what's the message you want people to take from this? because I would imagine the judgment of your mom from the outside, you want to say, wait, there's a whole other story here. And maybe the way we talk about people and the dynamic, like what is your message when issues of like mental health come up,

given that it's been so personal to you? I think the one big thing is we sometimes forget that people really struggle and how serious mental health takes a toll on the entire, family. Usually we isolate that person is dealing with a mental health struggle. No, it's that family is dealing with a mental health. Whatever varying degree it happens, the entire family is affected by that person's struggle and that person's reality. And it was hard, especially when funding was taken away from California and so many hospitals were closed down where it was like she didn't have, we didn't have any place for her to go.

And so she was on the streets more. And they did find, you know, thank goodness, like we knew people that were able to work and get her into housing and things like that. But mental illness is, it's a hard thing to reconcile that, I think especially with people that struggle with, like, where is God and mental health issues? and why does God allow these people to struggle with this? And it's really the ultimate problem of evil, you know? That's right. And it's a reminder that, yes, we live in a fallen world, but yet God is still sovereign in the midst of all of this, you know, fallenness.

And so it's been hard. And, you know, I'd say my brother still struggles with mental health issues, you know, to this day. And trying to help him realize that it's a struggle and get the proper help, you know, that he needs. So that's probably the biggest thing with mental health, but also the biggest thing also is even if you have these struggles or even if you have, you know, experience abuse and if you experience all of this tragedies in your life, that's not an excuse to walk away from God. Amen. And I don't, I don't ever want my experiences or my pain or the existence of evil does not mean. God doesn't exist. And so we still have a responsibility about the way that we live or respond to the gospel in spite of all of this. I was just telling someone a few years ago, I was like, I hate the

saying that children are resilient. Children are not resilient. Children carry all of these things with them and the experiences from the past and their pain. So the question is not about resiliency. The question is about healing and allowing God to heal you and allowing yourself to understand the eternal's perspective. That's the way that we move forward, not acting like it doesn't exist or, you know, just saying, oh, they'll bounce back from it, is that's not reality. And I don't know why adults say that because they know that's not reality. I think we say it to justify what we want to do.

That's what a lot of the divorce revolution was pushed through is, oh, it's best for kids, they're resilient, they'll be fine. Yes. Because that's what adults want. It's an excuse, not a reality. I think 99% of the time. Tell us what you're doing now. So did you graduate 03 from the MAFIL program or what year did you finish?

Oh gosh. Now you're asking years. Sorry, I'm not sure. Yes. Roughly early 2000s. We'll leave at that. Because I was there 2000 to 2003. And I remember we overlapped.

And that was life changing for me. My wife can attest to that. I've gone on and well, people here know what I've done. But tell us what was your undergrad degree in at Biola? Okay. Theater. Oh, okay. I missed that memo.

Yes. I did theater and communications and then the Bible minor. And so that was the plan, still going into the industry. Oh, okay. And so I was acting and auditioning. And so that's what I was going to do when I graduated. And I, you know, being a struggling actress, you know, was very, you know, difficult. and that, I mean, I could go on and on because there's a whole other path about how God led me.

We'll do part two. Yes, to the philosophy program. But that was literally life-changing for me. It just, I was like, yep, got to, got it. Because that was actually my second seminary. You mean the experience, the M.A. Phil program was life-changing. Because it was for me, too. And I mean in terms of my confidence, my vision, my focus.

I was like, wow, this is defensible. I understand why. sounds like that was similar to you. So you've done what sense. Or tell us more what you're doing now. There's a journey going overseas and math playing basketball. We don't have to get into any of that stuff. But tell us what you're doing now.

So now I'm a chaplain at our school, a private Christian school. And I teach a worldview class, which is designed to curriculum that I wrote and using part of Frank Pastoris. Amazing. curriculum with Gina and they've allowed me to use that and we've gotten accredited through Colorado Christian. Oh, that's great. So it's wonderful because they can take that class and the goal is to help them defend the existence of God without quoting a scripture.

And so that's what I'm, so I tell them, all right, you've got all my years of seminary. I've got one year to give it to you. And they're like, I'm like, let's start, logic. And so we go hardcore for a year. and I do, you know, speaking, I did the stand of reason and I'm part of the desert apologetics board in the desert and, you know, teaching at churches and chauffering my boys around to football, basketball, baseball, soccer. And probably something else we missed in that one that they're up to. Yes. Okay, so you also taught a junior college class for a while.

So public junior college, worldview, philosophy, just engaged. So you've been kind of doing this apologetics. philosophy thing for a while. If somebody's hearing this, and by the way, you've mentioned a standard reason a couple times. That was their reality student conferences. I think I kicked it off Friday night and I think you closed it Saturday night for that season, maybe two, three years ago now.

If somebody's hearing this going, wow, this story is A, interesting, B, it's redemptive. And see, you've got some like substance on the problem of evil and why God exists and wanted to invite you to come speak. Would you consider doing that? Sure. How can people get a hold of you? Not that you would like any personal information, but is there a website? Is there a best way to get a hold of you?

So I do. I have a website. It's lineage garrison.org. And so they can fill out an interest form through there. And L-A-N-E-J-J-Garison, G-A-R-R-I-S-O-N.org. That's your website. Or on social media, we could put the, what's it called? The hashtag.

Is it the hashtag? See, I'm really bad at this. The handle. The handle. Thank you, honey. Good word. Yes. You put our handle and people, that's where a lot of people contact me is through

Instagram. Through Instagram. Okay. Is there any part of your story that we missed? Is there anything that you, just on your heart that you want to share to people who are listening to this or some things up? Like, I want to make sure we covered what was important to you. No, I don't think so.

You know, there's more always because it was a lot. But I think for me it's just very cathartic to be able to just say it out loud. Good. Because I've never said it out loud publicly about, you know, who she was. And so I'm excited that the Lord is saying, okay, you know, you've said it, you got through it, and I didn't cry the whole time. You didn't cry at all. I was holding it. Tough.

I was holding it. but I think I'm appreciative that you have allowed me to share this and to just hear that she was a person too that had a struggle she wasn't just you know this woman that was out there she had a personal mental struggle and that's why you know she stalked him and so I think that kind of sensitivity I I hope helps people see her a little bit differently. So really, your takeaway hope is, seems to me a few things. Number one, people would see the underlying faith component that God is good and God is real and brings peace even through about as broken of a circumstance as somebody can come through. That seems to be A.

B would just be that somebody with mental illness affects the whole family, but this is a person and that's a human being. that's a big takeaway for me because I just remember as a kid hearing about Michael Jackson stalker and when you told me I was like oh my goodness like I probably said something as a kid I don't even know probably something insensitive I could imagine when I was eight or 10 years old and you're like this is a human being this is my mom and I loved her that's a huge takeaway how do you want people just to respond to this did that really sum up what your heart is and sharing this I think so um I think the final takeaway is, you know, like everything, all of those points that you've said, but that also all of these things lead back to who Jesus is.

Amen. And all of these things, like, this is my story, but it's not the end of the story. And there's more. And God can keep using you because we have an eternity coming. And so this is a stamp, but this is not it. And there's so many more things that God has done in my life and that this wasn't the only thing that defined me. But it was impactful for sure. To say the least.

Well, my hope is that people will invite you to come speak. My hope is that your book that you've been talking about and you're working on right now, this maybe could give some encouragement to that and open up some doors for you. I think you have a super important voice today that needs to be heard that's a part of your story. And so this has been a treat. I've been looking forward to this for a long time. Thanks for giving me the privilege of being the one to partner with you to share your story. Thank you so much, Sean.

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