The Sean McDowell Show - Rejecting the Gospel of Self-Improvement: A Conversation with Ruth Chou Simons

Episode Date: January 4, 2025

What is the "gospel" of self-improvement? How has it subtly crept into our lives, and how do we reject it? In this interview, I talk with author and entrepreneur Ruth Chou Simmons about her new book "When Strivings Cease." READ: When Strivings Cease, by Ruth Chou Simons (https://amzn.to/3COI9mu) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: @sean_mcdowell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org

What is the false gospel of self-improvement? Is it possible that even some Christians are embracing this false gospel? If so, how do we get out of it? Is it possible that some non-Christians falsely view Christianity as a means to self-improvement rather than about a God who loves us and who gives us grace these are important questions today and i have a wonderful guest to talk about this ruth chow simons is an entrepreneur she is just a social media behemoth for lack of a better word you've got an awesome following on social media shout out to my sister heather you are one of her favorite just speakers. She loves you so much. And I'm glad you and I met a few years ago at a summit on Gen Z. And we immediately realized we care about theology. We care about biblical literacy and we care about the gospel. And so thank you for coming on all the way from your home in Colorado to talk about your new book, When Strivings Sees. Thanks

for coming on, Ruth. I'm super honored to be here, Sean. Well, let's jump in. You had me at the opening quote in your book. You quote Tim Keller, and Tim Keller said this, Buddha's final words, strive unceasingly. Jesus's final words, it is finished. Why start there? Yeah, that quote stopped me in a little faster, improve ourselves a little bit better, be the best, kind of optimize ourselves, we will reach the happiness that we're looking for. And Jesus' final words being, it is finished,

really encapsulates his whole plan of redemption, which is lay down everything that you think you can do to save yourself. And I'm literally the one who will save you personally. So you need to submit and surrender yourself to me. Jesus is literally like, I did the whole thing. And Buddha's words are basically, keep trying. Keep trying to optimize yourself.

Be the best version of yourself. That will save you. And what a contrast. I think so too. It's one verse is saying you're saved by your own efforts. Another one says you can't by your efforts. Will you accept what God has done for you? And that contrast is sharp. Now, before we get into the false gospel of self-improvement, would you share your own journey to faith and becoming a follower of Jesus? Yeah, this is the first time I've been able to share a little

bit more of my personal story. I was born in Taiwan and immigrated to the U.S. when I was four and immediately was caught in between two worlds. You don't have to be from an Asian American background to understand that we all have some kind of influence in our lives about a formula for seeking approval, a formula for belonging, a formula for how you find your purpose in this world. And I got caught in between two cultures. One, my Asian American background of very being high priority placed on achievement and success and being the best and playing the piano and the violin and being really and getting straight. You know, I had kind of that cultural paradigm going. But also my um context was one where i was constantly trying to wear the right jeans bring the right lunch and really now as an adult it still continues get

the right followers make sure that you're beating the algorithm and just doing all that you can to find your place and receive accolades and affirmation and approval from others in your life. And so we all know that feeling. And it was such an oppressive and exhausting thing to keep up with in my life that when I heard, when I finally was receiving the gospel and hearing about God's love for me, I was having a really hard time processing how could it be that this gospel was about not performing and not bringing my very best to God as a means for his approval. And it took so long for me to really understand grace that I finally put it on paper and hopefully can help others receive it better too. How old were you when you first became a believer?

Eighth grade was when I really understood the gospel, but it wasn't, and you know, I don't have that perfectly clean story where I was like, yeah, I totally understood from day one. And I don't think it has to be that way. I know that I truly knew that God loved me and that I needed a substitute. I needed something, someone to save me from this illness of sin. But it really wasn't until college, Sean, that I understood Romans and I understood the Sermon on the Mount, that I understood what Jesus was saying to the Pharisees, that all your religious efforts, all you're trying to be good enough, because even when you come to faith, you can still be confused and think that now is the time to be like well see you didn't save me in vain jesus i'm gonna like do good things and i'm gonna serve you right i'm gonna

read my bible for an hour a day to make sure you see how how hard i'm trying and those efforts even the religious efforts jesus had something to say about that right we see it in the sermon of the mount we know that um jesus was, you're not impressing me with your religious efforts, all your good works. They really don't save you. And in fact, even you thinking that you're keeping the letter of the law actually does not even come close to truly being holy and righteous before me. You need Jesus. You need Christ's righteousness on your behalf because you're never going to be good enough or jump high enough. And I think that's a really hard message for our generation, right? This not being good enough, not measuring up. That's taboo in our generation.

I think it's amazing. You became a believer in eighth grade. In college, it becomes real in a sense. But then you write in your book during COVID when things slow down, some of these maybe insecurities, some of these efforts of self-reliance come bubbling up in a fresh way. And you, one of the things I love about your book, number one, it's beautiful. You're an artist. It's just everything you do, like the appearance is important for the sake of beauty, but it's also really raw. You shared some things. I was like, wow, I know this was hard to write. What were some of those things that you began to realize years after becoming a believer during the pandemic that

you were living in your own efforts and self-reliance that actually made things worse? Right. I really wanted to make sure that I was putting on display the fact that this is not a formula. It's not a one and done. We don't just like, oh, understand grace, and then we never have to preach that truth to ourselves again. In the midst of the pandemic, when I wrote all 50,000 words of this book, I found myself, and you might even remember the very weekend when things were shutting down. We were like, oh, this is the reality. All my speaking engagements canceled. And did you feel it rise up, Sean, that sense that like you're supposed to start a whole new miniseries on how to help people?

Oh, my goodness. I better maximize my efforts and make sure that I'm like creating a workshop for this moment. And like all this striving started bubbling up because what we turned to, what we had been turning to, maybe we didn't even realize how much we had turned to our systems and our own comforts as ways to secure our worth, our being received by others. And when those things were taken away, it kind of became obvious what we suddenly feel anxious about, right? Besides not knowing what's going to happen with a global pandemic, some of us started feeling anxious about, well, what's going to happen with my voice

online? How am I going to get my message out? What am I going to do? And some of those things are good to assess, but the anxiety that builds up is when you start going, warning, there's a flash, a warning saying, hey, you're striving because let me just define it real quick, because it's not the striving, the word striving is wrong. Striving in grace is a biblically minded perspective, but striving in our own strength is anxiously trying to toil or manipulate or control our circumstances or just wheel things just right so that we can achieve or acquire something that if deep down inside, if we were honest, we're not trusting God for. So maybe in the middle of pandemic, it's that I don't trust

that God will really bring me the readers that he has for me. So therefore I might strive thinking, I need to turn this ship around to make sure I secure what I'm scared that I won't have otherwise. It's that anxiety that shows us, oh goodness, I'm exhausted and I'm toiling because I'm striving in my own strength. And some of that popped up in the pandemic and I included it in the books just to be honest and say that this is a real process. Well, it is very honest and you're right. And sometimes with the kind of audience that maybe you and I have, there can be a tendency to just present a certain view that doesn't match up with the messiness of life. And I read your book. I'm like, wow, here's someone being really, really honest.

And I loved it. Now, you also shared a story about your father. It's obvious that you love your family and you honor them. But you also shared six words that your father spoke to you. And you remember those six words and how they shape you and your life and your striving. Would you share that with us? Yeah. So, you know, prior to my parents came to faith around the same time I came to faith. So they were adults.

I mean, I was in eighth grade before they came to Christ. And so prior to that season, I was a young middle schooler coming home, bubbling over with all sorts of things that I really want my dad to hear and pay attention to. And this one particular night, and I document this and I say this in the book, but I'm going off about what teenagers love to go off about, you know, like who's doing what and what's happening at school. And I just wanted him to care. And I couldn't, I couldn't put it off any longer. And I finally just indignantly, like a little middle schooler, I say, why don't you care? And why don't you ever listen to me? And he looked up and without any real emotion, he just said, you haven't finished the dishes yet. And it was the

most stark, strange pairing of words because his response to me saying, am I not worthy? Do you not care? Don't you want to hear what I have to say? Was you haven't finished your duty. And even though that was pre-Christ in his life, even though ultimately I know that he wasn't trying to scar me or hurt me or anything, that wasn't his purpose. But when I heard those words, I think it really translated to kind of a process of thinking that it shaped a paradigm in me, thinking that I'm only worthy when I do my job. I only have the year of my father, my heavenly father, if I kept my end of the deal, like reading my Bible or serving in church or forsaking that one sin that I said I was going to forsake. And now, you know, he's not going to ever want to talk to me again because the guilt,

because I haven't done my duty. And that's just not biblical. And yet that shaped my thinking. And I allowed a false idea of my heavenly father to define my relationship with God early on. That was a really helpful story because it gave me pause as a parent. I get frustrated if my kids don't do their laundry if they don't do the dishes and it's like just get it done and

then we'll do this start to realize like wow am i pushing a narrative on them without realizing about love and acceptance and that's really worth thinking about so i appreciate your honesty now you've shared a number of stories but you call this the gospel of self-improvement. Something like, I think you said it's Jesus plus our efforts. So what do you mean by the gospel of self-improvement? And I'm curious why you call it a false gospel. Yeah, well, the gospel simply means good news, right? And when I look around, I'd say, judging from what's popular on the bestsellers list and what lines bookshelves,

it would appear that our generation is obsessed with this falsely deceiving good news, quote, good news of self-improvement, meaning there's always a new formula out there, how to rule your life, how to make yourself happy, how to optimize all your giftings, how to live your best life. I mean, we've been hearing it for a while, but even among believers, I really kind of think, wow, it's amazing how we turn. We think that grace, God's grace, we say, oh, Jesus saves, but then we don't actually somehow believe that Jesus sustains because we keep turning. We, I just mean like the church at large and even just this current generation, we are constantly turning to other formulas and we think

that we can find some kind of really good news, life transforming news in those formulas, those new discoveries, all the new things that we think will help us once and for all be the best versions of ourselves. And really what it is, is we're constantly just tweaking, making improvements, hoping that once and for all, we won't struggle with belonging. We won't struggle with feeling a lack of self-worth. We're looking to something else to satisfy what Jesus was, what was meant to be given by Christ alone. I'm curious why you think this is so appealing, because for me, as I think about the times in life, I've experienced grace from other people and stopped striving and been able to show grace to people. It's so beautiful and some of the most rich experiences in life.

And yet we resist it and we keep striving nonetheless. So what makes this false gospel just so appealing to us? Well, we wouldn't keep doing it if it wasn't actually working at some level. The truth is the gospel of self-improvement at some level is like a hit that actually satisfies quickly. If you strive hard enough and you don't rest and you keep on working through the night, at some level, you might get the results you want on social media. You might get the results you want from your email list or from people saying, good job, Sean, you did a great job,

right? You might get that little boost of, yeah, like if I just keep on hustling in this way, I'll get what I want to make myself feel better. That's the truth. In receiving grace, Jesus's formula is actually surrendering everything that comes with your own efforts and actually saying, this belongs to the Lord. I will steward this, but I am not the hero of my own story. I am not the primary person who can control all things in my life and therefore I can rest. Therefore, I can relieve the results to him. Therefore, I don't demand my way. That's just not as easy or as fun, right? It's more fun to say, well, if I just put in three more hours, if I just take one more webinar on how to be amazing, I'll get the results I want. And guess what? The truth is

everybody's promising that you will get the results. And at some level, they're right. You might get it quickly, but guess what? The bottom line is that that paradigm and the tyranny of trying harder, that regime really requires that you just keep trying harder. It's a hamster wheel that never ends. It's really an alternate form of salvation. I remember this first came to my understanding when I was reading, I think, How Now Shall We Live by Colson and Nancy Piercy. And they talked about how commercials are a form of salvation. Here's the problem. Here's how you fix it.

Movies are a form of salvation we live in a world where everybody's got some form of salvation meant to heal us from our striving and our pain but it's false and we just go on we believe the next one we believe the next one and we believe the next one so what what happens do you think when someone keeps going through life and just continues to embrace this false gospel of striving yeah i think there's only two places you can go with that you could either keep trying harder and never feel satisfied always saying if i just turn the next corner if i just do this next thing i'll measure up i will reach my goal i'll be who I want to be. And the reality is I'd love to, like, has it ever worked for you? It's never worked for me. Like just trying to be

just a little bit better has never, ever gotten me to the place where I know that I'm truly, truly worthy and I'm settled and my identity is secure. That's never been the case when I'm striving in my own strength. But the second option, if you keep chasing that, you're either bound to perpetual striving or you give up altogether and you just say, I want out. I'm not going to strive. I'm not going to try at all. I don't care. And spiritually speaking, it means that you probably quit the gospel, quit the church

altogether and go, hey, if I think that this is all about me trying harder and being better, and if you believe that God is hard to please, then you're basically going to either keep on trying or you're going to stop trying to have a relationship with him altogether. Let's maybe take a moment here and give a word of encouragement to people who are listening to this thinking, I'm not striving striving i gave up a long time ago and you and i in some ways i don't relate to that at this point in my life i'm like what's sometimes called an a personality go push work hard accomplish like when i read this book i'm like yeah that's me i needed this conviction and

this encouragement but i also know a lot of people who go, I don't think I can make a difference. I'm done. Give up. And we've had a serious increase in depression and loneliness. What would your word of encouragement be for people experiencing that? Yeah. Well, fear and guilt and apathy has never motivated, right? Nobody's ever said, hey, I'm so fearful.

So now I'm going to really like dig in and love the Lord. You know, Romans tells us his kindness leads us to repentance. Love is the greatest invitation and motivator. And so all the change that we're wanting for that person who's sitting there going, I gave up a long time ago. In fact, I don't even want to get up in the morning. And, you know, Fred, whoever's listening and feels that way, I got to tell you, I think we're all struggling with some of that. There's a low level of anxiety and disappointment and sadness going on for all of us, whether you are a striver or not, there's something in us that's calling. I mean, it's really a mercy that even though the circumstances are painful, it's a mercy that we're realizing that the things that we maybe were clinging to before just don't satisfy. And this is a good moment to go, okay, maybe what was getting me up in the morning before

was some kind of approval or some kind of payoff that isn't there for me now. And the apathy and the depression or the just giving up, the sense of giving up right now that I feel maybe is pointing to the fact that I need a different motivator. And I'm here hoping that through this book, I get to show you once again, that through the word of God, we're told that grace is the best motivator, that God's grace, his get to show you once again, that through the word of God, we're told that grace is the best motivator, that God's grace, his coming to earth and truly saying, you will stay, you will never make yourself good enough. I will do everything it takes to bring you back into my presence and make you worthy to be in my care forever. You'll never have to be alone. Friend, if you can really receive

the truth of God's love there, that will get you up in the morning in a way that no paycheck, no accolade, no payoff ever could. And so it's complicated. Honestly, Sean, sometimes I wish I wrote a book on five steps to living your best life. Sometimes it would be easier if we were like, you know what, guys, when you're feeling sadness during a pandemic, these are the five things that will change your life. And you know what? I could give you five practical things and maybe we will talk about those. But ultimately, it's not it's your change of mind. When you believe differently, you will live differently. And the thing that I think maybe I struggle with most in this message is that I wonder and worry if our generation has been so plugged into the false gospel of the quick and easy gospel that we find online. Something just a quick fix for your day that we actually don't even know what the Bible actually says about redemption and the grace of God. And so hoping to

change that narrative a little and help bring this generation back to understanding how amazing, what's so amazing about grace. You know, what is amazing about grace is for those who strive, grace says you don't need to strive. You are loved and you accepted and you belong. And then we can work out of that acceptance and belonging. But it also says to those who feel like they've given up, it's not your effort. You don't have to try. Jesus has done this for you.

You are loved and God's spirit and the body of Christ will then help you live the way God wants you to. I think that's the beauty of grace. Now, before we jump into some of these particulars, you have a lot to say about the character of God, which I just love that in your book, and you've written other books on that. But you say you're not calling people to get busy, but for discernment, which I love because if you said, here's five steps, study this, do this, it would almost undermine the entire message. So, exactly. Tell us what you mean by calling for discernment over doing all these things.

Yeah, well, I have to say what changed my life was when I really understood the grace of God through much of what Paul's written in the New Testament. And when I read what Paul's written through any of his epistles, he always starts with the character of God. And from the character of God, he says, hey, remember, because this is who God is and what he's done through Christ, this is now who you are.

And then from there, he goes on to all our favorite parts of those epistles, like now, walk in a manner worthy. This is what you do. Put on, put off, love others, forgive. Don't do this and do that. Like we always jump right to in the Christian life, we seem to jump right to what we're supposed to do. But we forget that the way the apostle Paul discipled his readers was, please, you've heard it before, but remember again who God is and what he's done. Because until you really reckon with that, you're not going to believe who you are in Christ. You won't believe your new identity. And if you don't really know what your new identity is in Jesus, how could you ever obey and operate out of that belief? And so it's a call to get discerning and not just to get

busy because there are so many books out there that are giving us the formula for how to organize your life and optimize your hours and be the best version of yourself online and be a great leader by showing these characteristics. We jump right to what you should look like, what you should sound like, what you should be doing. And I'm saying those are all good tools. But until you know who you are in Jesus, those are all just little band-aids that you're going to put on here and there trying to stop the bleeding that sin and brokenness really will produce in your life

until you find your ultimate remedy in Christ. You and I cannot change the culture in which we live, which sometimes feels suffocating. Oh, I've got to floss, got to change my, oh, I got to get my kids to practice, got to do the laundry. It just feels like it's never ending. But what you call for is a shift in perspective about who we are, our relationship with God, can change how we experience those things.

And as someone who's in process on that, I appreciate that encouragement. So you spend a lot of time talking about foundational truths of God's character and finding our identity in him. Why is that where you start to counter this false gospel of striving? Yeah, well, our lives are really mundane. I mean, you just listed off all sorts of things. And, you know, today we have a broken axle on a trailer or then the septic isn't working. I mean, we all deal with these things, right? And so the reality is the gospel isn't just at work when we're standing before hundreds and telling, sharing on a stage or when we get to go across the pond and minister and evangelize someone who's never heard it before. It applies in our everyday lives. And so the only way you can apply it in your everyday life is to actually recognize that the entirety of the scriptures

is God's love letter to us about how he's been at work from the beginning to the end and every mundane and every big thing and every small thing and all the details. And so I think, I think one of the things that I, I struggle with when I see young people, like I just, I hurt for those who don't recognize that the story of redemption started at the beginning, right, right at the start. And when we realize how vast and how much he's been pursuing us for all of time, we start realizing that this day matters. This issue matters. And how we turn to him and how we see his character in the way we respond to this issue is how we live out the gospel in our daily lives. And so, yeah, I think that we have to preach that to ourselves.

And if you're in progress, I certainly am. Like I'm constantly realizing like I may know that in my mind, but the first thing I have to do when I wake up in the morning is not check my inbox and pick up my phone. I really have to rehearse that truth, rehearse the gospel to myself and say, Lord, it's another day that you've given me. And I'm so quick to forget. And I still think that I'm the ruler of my own life today.

By the way I act, by the way I think that I got to go tackle everything, I clearly think that I'm in charge. Would you please realign my heart with who you are, that you have been at work since forever, and that you're the one who called this day into order. The fact that the sun rose and I had nothing to do with it shows me once again that you are God and I am not. And so when the, I like to say the greater, you know, I think Tozer is the one that said, you know, it says so much about you. What you think about God is the most important thing about you, I think is what Tozer said. But what the greater view you have of God, the more he is going to be seen at work in everything that you do and how the greater that grace will be. And again, I hate to be quoting so much, but Thomas Watson's

the one that says, till sin be bitter, Christ will not be sweet, right? So if grace doesn't seem very sufficient to you, it's probably because you haven't had a high view of God and a real realistic view of your sin. And so I know that doesn't sound super practical and helpful, but I would tell you the number one thing that will change your day today is if you meditate on the greatness of God and get a clear and real vulnerable view of your sin

and lay it before the Lord and say, I need you God, because I'm a sinner in need of grace and watch your day change because of the high view of God that you start with. Now, you don't necessarily go into this in your book, but it lines up how there's a lot of research showing that we do have some control through practices to shift our thinking, what we focus on. And when we shift our thinking, our emotions often follow along with it. Lines up with what you're saying also lines up with Romans 12, when Paul talks about not being conformed to

this world, but being transformed by the renewing of your mind. So I just love that you're recognizing this false gospel that all of us are tempted to buy into Christian or not and saying the solution is to go to God's character, start by rightly understanding who God is. Those of you just joining us, we're here with Ruth Chow Simons. She has an excellent new book called When Strivings Sees. She's an author, a social media influencer, mother of, do you have five boys? Six boys and no girls and a husband right unbelievable that's a whole another topic that would add to this conversation in so many ways my hat is off and respect to you for that but you have a chapter that you framed it by saying you dreaded writing this chapter and it's about shame would you talk about just kind of why you dreaded it and what

you want readers and us to take away from that chapter? Yeah. You know, shame is that topic that nobody, none of us really want to talk about. And some of us go, yeah, you know, I don't struggle with that. I don't, I've already dealt with my past and I don't have really regrets, but shame is that thing that's like deep seated. It's kind of like, not just I regret doing something, but it's that framework that makes us go, oh, because I struggle with this or because I've screwed up in this way before, it's really defining who I am. And this is the way I think God sees me. That's where shame festers, right? And this whole book was complicated for me to write because this is not like I'm writing this from, you know, the end of my life, looking back saying everything's perfect and clean. This is me saying, hey, I've walked through this, but I'm still in progress as all of us are. And so,

you know, I still remember writing that chapter and I spent some time reading about the prodigal son and I was in tears, Sean, realizing just maybe even the shallow way I had looked at that parable and recognizing how much, again, just like we just talked about, how much the greater I understand the character of God, the more my sin dissolves. I mean, my shame dissolves, right? Because in that chapter I talk about, and some here listening may have already read some of these sources that have helped us understand that parable better in context, the original ancient culture context. But, you know, that parable shares this about the father running across as he hears that his son is entering the city gates. He's running across. And as you know, in that culture, you would have had to like pull up your clothes and run and bear, and the father would have shown his legs, which is super humiliating. But what I didn't understand was that in that culture, there was this ritual called kazaza. And it was that the city, the townspeople would go to the gate and break this pot at the gate

and basically saying, stay out. You've already wasted your inheritance. You've already shamed our community. Our fellowship's broken. You do not get to come in. That was a ceremony that was known in that culture. It was called, because I don't even know for sure if I'm pronouncing it right, but I think so. And they broke that pot to symbolize you are no longer welcome in this community. And so when you now think about the father running, running to his son, it wasn't just this feel good, like, oh, I miss you so much. For the first time, I really understood it was the father saying, not going to let the townspeople get there and break this fellowship. I'm going to take the humiliation that was meant for him,

and I'm going to beat them to the gates. I'm going to run. I'm going to meet my son before ever the fellowship can be broken between us. And I'm going to welcome him home. I'm going to say, you know what? I've bore the shame. I let my legs show through the whole town and I'm running across. And that moment, Sean, for me, when I was reading through that, thinking on it and writing about it made me realize, okay, the reason why shame no longer needs to define any of us, regardless of our past, regardless of what has been done to us or what we've done to others, what we've done at all, because of the father's love and because he truly is, that parable is told to demonstrate and show us that because he bore our shame,

we have total access. We have been welcomed and there is nothing broken. And again, just going back to what we've talked about before, I don't think there's any formula for dissolving the lingering feelings of shame in our lives until we recognize god's great love for us love will um rescue us from the effects of shame amen you know you can't see it because where the camera is focused but on my side over here is a copy of the painting by rembrandt of the prodigal son and i've seen that painting in the Hermitage in Eastern Europe. And I believe it's about 8 feet by 11 feet.

And it's this moment where the father is embracing his prodigal son. And part of my story was growing up in a Christian home, didn't commit the big sins, Ruth. Didn't drink, didn't have sex, didn't listen to certain music. And so there's a real sense of pride without realizing that I was better than other people. And partly reading Henry Nowlin's book, The Return of the Prodigal Son, broke me and was like, holy cow, because Jesus had a lot more grace for sinners than he did who were self was self righteous. And there are two brothers in that story but yeah it's really the story of two brothers who both need grace and he goes

out to both of them he goes out to the son who's working in the field being diligent trying to add effort to his acceptance yep and that's a false gospel that the older brother. So ironically, this deep sinner we tend to judge was closer to the heart of God than this guy who was seemingly doing everything right. Yeah, totally. That was a humbling thought that really, really broke me. Now, you have a quote I want you to give me some thoughts on. And you wrote this. I think it's a great line. You said, we can't know freedom if we express it. I'm sorry, let me say it again. We can't know freedom if we sometimes treat grace like a cruise ship rather than a life raft.

I just think that it's so easy for us to be like, grace is that nice word that we put on mugs and in T-shirts. And we're like, give a little grace. And we think that it's just a sweet, friendly, feel good. Like, yeah, everybody I talk to always says, yeah, grace is that. We kind of don't think there's any weight to it. We just think grace, it's basically being liked and being okay and happy. And oh my goodness, when we look at the biblical definition of grace, grace costs Jesus everything. And grace was the gift of God of unmerited favor. I know I'm getting into churchy words, but you know, it is the favor

that we did not deserve. It's the welcome. It's the come home and sit by my side and never be alone again and always have my presence with you. It's having all that, having not been amazing or done anything to deserve it. And when we think on that, and when we think about ourselves, just the way we're drowning in sin, and that grace is truly the life raft that tows us to shore and gets us on solid ground, then suddenly we go, oh, there's freedom. There's freedom because grace is the means by which I'll stop drowning and I will stand on solid ground. But instead, I think sometimes we think, why don't I see change in my life? Well, I think sometimes we go like, I don't see change in my life because we're treating grace kind of like the way in which we're going to be like, God, give me the grace to, you know, accept my extra five pounds on my body. Or we just kind of think of it superficially, like give me grace to like get through the day,

which it's valid. Like God's grace gets us through the day, but it's so much bigger than that. And I think we underestimate how much God truly chooses the gift of grace to be our transformation, not just a way to like get through the next five minutes of something we don't really want to do, you know? Ruth, I'm going to jump to a question because i think this is something i know you've thought

about and on my channel no surprise people are like thinking theologically about this stuff but i think this is a practical helpful one for you um mad chicken says how do we balance the grace of god with Paul's clear action-based words that he instructs us to take, throw off, put on, stand firm, get rid of, so we can become mature Christians? So since the pandemic, you've been just as active and you're writing, you're doing things. How do we balance grace and the action Christ calls us to? Well, thanks for asking that question, Matt Chicken, because I think that the misnomer and the confusion is that sometimes people think that grace means that we sit back and we go,

by God's grace, my inbox is gonna be empty today. And by God's grace, my children will obey. And I don't really need to discipline or train or do anything. I'm just gonna sit here and receive the grace of God. That is not even biblical. That's not even what Paul is saying. And you're right, not chicken, but Paul absolutely says put off, put on. And we just talked about that. And so in case you're joining in a little bit later, I'll just reiterate. The whole point is that Paul does say walk in a manner worthy of the grace that you received well do you know

the do you know about the grace that you received and that's why Paul spends so much time at the beginning of Romans several chapters several chapters at the beginning of Colossians anytime he's giving instruction in Ephesians go back to where he begins it's always about God and the grace of God being your means of salvation. When that's been established, we can strive in grace, not strive for grace. That's the distinction. The distinction is one says, hey, I'm going to work real hard and I'm going to put on and put off and be holy and never cuss, don't smoke, don't have sex. I'm going to do all these things so that God will approve. The other says, wow, because I'm a sinner in need of grace, God's rescue through Jesus has secured my place with him. And therefore, because I have access to that, I have everything I

need for life and godliness. And my stewardship of this one life back to him is that I'm not going to waste it on sin for which he died. I'm not going to cuss and treat my body poorly and treat others poorly. I am going to put off these sins and put on righteousness because the grace of God is already mine. That is walking in a manner worthy of the grace that you've been given and called to and striving in grace, not for grace. One of my favorite verses has always been Ephesians 2.8.9

that says it's by grace you've been saved through faith. It's not from yourself, but it's the gift of God, not by works so no one can boast. And then verse 10 is like you are a new workmanship, a masterpiece. So go out and create. Exactly.

So you're not saying we work any less hard. In fact, you're not saying we don't strive. Look at Paul. He strived and he worked and he pushed himself. But Paul's the one who rooted himself in grace. So the key is how do we find our identity and our character in grace and still strive, which is only going to come from a big dose of grace

and probably a lot of failures. Well said. So let me ask you this. And you talk about, I thought this was interesting at the very time. I know you use this phrase intentionally. You talk about discovering your own truth, which is a phrase people say, live your truth, discover your truth, share your truth. What do you mean by that? And why is that ultimately an unsatisfying way to live? Yeah. Well, basically, you know, we, you know, because this is what you study all the time is that we are in a time where there are no absolutes, except that there are no absolutes. Absolutely. Right. And so this idea that no one will make you happy,

but yourself. So don't get in my way because I will be the boss of my life and whatever I need to succeed and make myself fulfilled is truth. It's right. It's good. And the only bummer to that kind of thinking is you're going to be incredibly exhausted and lost and unfulfilled because that will keep shifting and that will change because in five minutes um what is required for approval and belonging i mean i think you guys were all here in 2020 where it suddenly shifted our belonging and our acceptance and our approval anywhere online shifted like this every five minutes right and so if you're basing your happiness, your joy, your belonging, your self-worth

on the metric that the world sets, you are gonna be endlessly chasing that ever shifting metric. And so, yeah, our identity is increased. I mean, we talk about that a lot, but I think we underestimate how much we have to be anch your own life. I mean, that's really hard and unpalatable in our society, unless we present and put on display how the truth of God's word actually does secure the actual belonging, favor, and welcome that our souls were made for. And so I guess maybe more than anything, I would just say it's really easy to subscribe

to shifting truth if you haven't tasted and seen how good the truth of God's word truly is. And so don't underestimate how satisfying it truly is when you've tasted and seen the truth of God's word. I love that the idea of discovering your own truth living your truth assumes that meaning is found looking within yet the heart of what you're saying is no actually when we look within we find sinfulness and brokenness and that's actually saying live your truth is advancing the very fake gospel that you're critiquing. Because if you live your truth, that means you're going to have to justify yourself.

You're going to have to be good enough. You're the standard. Yeah. And that's not going to work. It's only when we recognize the standard outside of us that we've broken and appeal to what Jesus has done for us, that we can stop striving and accept grace. So it's really amazing to me. I like that you use the word the false gospel of self-improvement because in my world, we talk about different worldviews.

We talk about the prosperity gospel, but I don't know that we talk enough about the gospel of self-improvement intentionally using that language, calling it what it is. So I hope one of the things that'll come out of your book and you're talking on this is people start to realize like, wow, that's a false gospel that can lead to accepting lies in my life and have consequences with how I live. So, yeah, I think we underestimate how much we're being discipled. You know, you kind of think that you're going to church and you're maybe doing a certain Bible study. But what you are exposing yourself to and what you're subscribing to, who's speaking into your life, the book that you're picking up off the shelf, that's discipling you more than you know. Your Instagram app, your TikTok app, it's discipling you.

And so we're all being discipled. We're all being changed. We're all being shaped by what we are giving our attention to, what our heart beats for, what we're most excited about. And so assessing that and discerning that is really important. You have a section on the American dream. And I found this interesting because I was born in America, although I've traveled a good amount overseas. You described being born in Taiwan and seeing that cultural shift. So that might give you a certain perspective on the American dream that I might miss and

others might miss. But tell us why you think it's not working out and why that doesn't satisfy. Yeah. Whether you're an immigrant or not i think we all kind of have this picture in our minds that includes we think the american dream is basically being able to buy two houses have perfectly behaved children um you know retire at 65 or whatever you know we can think of having a certain 401k. And, you know, like we have this image of our minds of achievement, acquiring and having everything. And I

think in the book, I even listed off having, you know, this perfect husband and having all these great friends and having a church community that is always so accepting of all your giftings. And like, we just have this ideal in our minds. And I think we talk a lot of times about striving in our own strength. And some of this book really speaks to your personality in mind, Sean, the personality that's a little bit like we're achievers, we're always going after something. But the reality is we all have versions of striving

when we're talking about some version of idealism, perfectionism, wanting other people to meet our expectations, wanting a husband or a form of achieving or acquiring for yourself what you don't trust God for. And so I think once again, let's not be deceived and think that striving is a message. Ceasing striving is not just a message for the hustlers and the overachievers in this world. It's really for those who are easily disappointed, for those of us who feel like nobody ever meets our expectations or think that so-and-so is disappointing. Somewhere in there, it's still our pride thinking that we are the metric, we are the standard and wanting everything to work out so that we have the comfort and the happiness that we think we deserve.

Ruth, here's a really personal one for you from Albert Chin. I hope I said that right. And he's looking for some personal direction. He says, how do I recover from being part of the self-help movement such as Landmark Worldwide, Tony Roberts, et cetera. Well, Albert, I would say you probably at some point have felt a lot of pressure. I mean, I'm guessing that you probably feel extreme pressure. You've felt a lot of anxiety about getting it wrong. Like, did I take a left or a right? Am I making the right career choices?

And I would just first say, like, the first step to recovering from that paradigm and that worldview is to return to the Word of God and just read, literally remind yourself what God has offered you. And a good place to start, honestly, Albert, is, you know, the psalmist is really good at putting on display how to preach truth to himself. Psalm 42, Psalm 103, declare what God has done, how he's forgotten and thrown and just forgotten our iniquities and our shame and how he's loved us, how he's rescued us. That's what the psalmist had to do. He had to say to himself, why so downcast? Oh, my soul, put your hope in God. And so Albert, if you feel like, my goodness, I've been a part of a movement that's really put

so much pressure on myself and put the whole idea of succeeding and having, living your best life on performance and being amazing. I'd start by humbling yourself and saying, okay, God, I'm exhausted and I'm done being part of something that is perpetuating the idea that we are God and God is not. And so we start by remembering and rehearsing what God has done. And then honestly, I would just, even on a practical level, Albert, I would say, if you've been part of a movement whatever movement it is that is discipling you towards something that is false and deceiving and not satisfying um cut off that stream of content and don't allow yourself to be discipled by those voices that are not leading you to a greater reliance on jesus that's a good metric about any movement is this message taking me into a greater reliance on god or is this message taking me to a greater reliance on

myself if you are landing at a place after you listen to any message if you're landing at a place where you want to worship your own happiness and you feel like you have to be in charge, that self-reliance and that worship of self is a false gospel. And so don't be discipled by that any longer. Ruth, I've just got to point out, and I'm sure my audience is picking up on this, because one of the things I try to do is be biblically faithful, but just be gracious towards people in interaction whether christians are not and assume the best of people and you're modeling like here's somebody who's

asking a question very honest that probably hurts and there's a story behind it let's go to scripture let's root out faulty ideas but i want to show grace and love to you and i just hope my audience of viewers isn't missing that. So I appreciate that. Now, there was a question earlier. I wish I could bring it over. But the question was, how do I pass on to my kids God's grace to encourage them to strive to be the best that they can be

without giving them this false gospel of self you know, kind of self-justification and self-reliance. Yeah. Oh, that's a good one. And we could be here for, because I'm a mom at six. I mean, this is a topic that I could talk on for a long time, but I'll just say real quickly, first of all, the number one thing we pass on is what we put on display every day as parents. You literally, I mean, more is caught than taught you could sit them down and tell them what grace is and you could read ephesians 2 8 and 9 and do please do that but ultimately they're going to learn more about the grace of god and our need for god's grace by how you live out your need for god's grace as a parent so first and foremost i

mean i'm a mom i have have a 19-year-old and I have an eight-year-old. That's my range. Do I want them to fail at school? No. Do I want them to get into good colleges and do great things in their lives? Of course. But how I encourage to that end will show them what I value most, what I worship, and what I think is the means to get there. So am I saying, hey, you will live, you will be happiest if you go to an Ivy League school. So do that at all costs, right? What am I saying? How am I reacting? And then if you're joining in late, Sean and I talked about earlier, you know, it's so easy as a parent to say things like, you know, basically I'll, I'll be nicer to you if you, or we act in a way that's like, I'll, I'll love you more. I'll be nicer to you if you get good grades or if you

do your choice. Man, are we actually, we may not say that with our words, but do we act that way? And so here's an alternative. The alternative is guys, this is me saying to my boys, you know, guys, I don't really want to make my bed either. Quite frankly, I don't even want to do half the things that are on my list today. And I'll just say there's a part of me that wants to just muscle my way through to prove that I'm good enough and I'm strong enough. And then I feel like if I don't do it, people are going to be disappointed in me. I don't want you to feel that way about your chores or your schoolwork you know why I want you to do well in school because your life is belongs to Jesus and when you do well in school it is an opportunity for you to live to the

fullest the very breath that God's giving you but you're not gonna know how good God is until you first recognize that you are not the boss of your life. God has created you for a purpose on purpose. And so, guys, I need Jesus just as much as you do. I am struggling with my attitude today. I don't necessarily do things with the right attitude. So let's together, by God's grace, ask him for the grace we need to even do the things he's called us to do today. And in that, let us do things with excellence because he's loved us so much and he deserves

our very best. We don't need to earn his favor, but my goodness, will he be pleased if we do this well? That's the kind of conversation, maybe I don't say that in one big monologue, but that's the conversation I have with my kids all the time. And I have to put on display that sometimes I do things with a bad attitude. Sometimes I don't want to do things at all. And I will strive in grace, not for grace. And I can put that on display day by day. Oh, I like that. You said, I will strive in grace, not for grace. In many ways, that sums up this entire summary. This entire discussion sums up your book. I'm going to say it again. I strive in grace, not for grace. That's beautiful. Now, I have a range of guests on here.

I've had atheists, I've had skeptics, progressive Christians, Mormons. My last guest was a double PhD and wrote an academic book on historical Adam. And I think people know what they would get if they got his book. Tell us about your audience and kind of the focus of When Striving Sees. And I hope my audience will pick it up, but just give them a sense of expectations. Yeah. So y'all, my greatest desire is that I might make the gospel accessible to somebody who may not think that it's for them. I deeply care about theology. I deeply care about truth, but I truly believe that we don't have to choose between beauty and truth. We don't need to

pick up a pretty book and go, oh, this is going to be fluff, nor do we need to go for hardcore truth and miss out on the beauty. So what I hope you get when you read When Striding Sees is a conversation with a friend. I hope it feels like you and I are sitting down together for a few hours with a cup of coffee and I'll be vulnerable with the real context in which I've had to learn some of these things. And I'm going to ask you some hard questions and hopefully you will be vulnerable too. And in that journey together, it won't feel like somebody is talking at you. It'll be somebody talking with you. And through this process, I pray that the pages cause you to linger long because I've got some artwork, some hand-drawn artwork in there. But what I hope to accomplish is in 15 chapters for us to go through a journey in which you will be so dazzled, not by my artwork, not by my words, but you'll be so dazzled by who God is

and how great his love that the grace of God would be the gift that you can access every single day of your life. And that you would walk away from the last page of this book and feel super empowered, not because you picked up a book that gave you a strategy for life, but that you picked up a book that gave you the truth about eternal, eternal presence with him. And so that's where transformation is going to come from. I don't know how else to put it. I didn't make it up. I'm just the messenger giving you some truth that came from the word of God, but I pray that it will be accessible in a way that you've not seen before. Well, Ruth, again, I hope our audience will pick up a copy of When Striving Sees. I want to personally thank you. You endorsed one of my other books. I appreciate you taking the time. You're busy with six boys and your own business.

I follow you on Instagram. Thoroughly enjoy your posts. But the most important thing to me is that you minister deeply to my baby sister who's ten years younger than I am she reads everything you write she's joining one of your Bible studies that started her that's coming up so my dad told me when I was a kid he goes he goes if you want to minister to somebody minister to their kids and I was like oh that makes sense then I became a parent I was like oh my goodness I get it well it's the same with a sister who's 10 years younger than I am so thank you for ministering to her and again pick up a copy of when strivings cease before we wrap up if you are new to this channel make sure you hit subscribe here's just a couple shows we have coming up Friday I will be doing a live Q&A

with the genetically modified skeptic, Drew, and we're just going to go back and forth taking questions. We get to pick them and then we each answer them and move forward. So we want to model civil conversation and just help you see how one Christian, one atheist might answer questions differently. Next Wednesday, bringing back Colby Martin an author and progressive Christian pastor who wrote a book unclobber and we're going to talk about the Bible and LGBTQ relationships and same-sex unions it's going to be a friendly dialogue but I think highlights some substantive differences got Craig Keener coming up he has a new book coming out on miracles today he wrote a massive volume in 2010

and has a more popular version coming out. And over the past 10 years, he communicated to me. He said, I have had dozens and dozens of people send me documentable cases of miracles. So we have a ton more than that, but make sure you hit subscribe. And if you've ever thought about studying apologetics, think about joining with me and the team at biola there's information below we would love to have you ruth hang on one minute when we're done so i can say goodbye but to all of you thanks so much

we'll see you 11 o'clock friday for live q a with an atheist don't miss it it's gonna be fun thanks again ruth