The Sean McDowell Show - Ruslan’s Wakeup Call for the Church

Episode Date: September 26, 2025

Ruslan KD is one of the most popular and influential Christian YouTubers. He focuses on cultural analysis, from a biblical perspective, and challenges Christians to live out their faith. He has written a new book, Godly Ambition, which challenges Christians to strategically use their gifts to help advance the kingdom of God. In this interview, Ruslan shares his journey to faith, the motivation behind his career, why he is so passionate about Christians being ambitious, and he addresses some tough questions about the downside of ambition. Finally, he gives a warning for Christians today. READ: Godly Ambition, by Ruslan KD (https://amzn.to/4n3yY9u) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

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He's a popular YouTuber, rapper, and author of the new book, Godly Ambition. You gave me the opportunity to endorse this. I think it's fantastic. We're going to look at your life, your assessment of the church today, and a warning you have for young Christians. This is long overdue, but thanks for coming on, man. Man, thanks for having me. Yeah, I had you on about a year ago. Yeah, a couple times.

A couple times even on. Well, I want to start with your story. I know you were not born in the States. You're not a Christian growing up. Tell us about your family growing up. Yes, I'm ethnically Armenian, but raised in a country called Azerbaijan Baku, which is just to the east of Armenia. And Armenia and the Turks have a long, ongoing thing from the Armenian genocide. And so Turkey, Azerbaijan often referred to as two nations, two people, one state.

And there's been a lot of deep. ethnic cleansing in that region of Armenians. And so long story short, in the 80s, we had something called the pogroms of Baku, which was over, I think I want to say the year, 1988 to 1990, about half a million Armenians were ethnically cleansed from Azerbaijan.

And me and my family came as refugees because of that, massive violence in the streets, hundreds of folks killed. And it was, very, you know, crazy for my family. My dad had to leave early. Me and my mom stayed behind because we, my mom's adopted by an Armenian family,

but she's, uh, ethnically Russian or Ukrainian. I'm not quite sure on my 23 and me. Uh, when I ran it said half Russian and Ukrainian. And so because we were fair skin, we stayed behind longer to kind of settle the affairs. And yeah, came to the United States as a refugee. Uh, in 91. My mom was the only way. So you were how old?

I was six. Oh, wow. To San Diego. which is a very different San Diego than it is now, you know, in the City Heights area, folks who are familiar with San Diego. And subsequently after my mom and my dad split, because of infidelity on both sides, and so I end up being exposed to God in the first context. We had no God in the Soviet Union because Azerbaijan was under the Soviet Union.

There was no faith, no God, and my first exposure to it is in the Armenian Orthodox Church, which was very interesting, a part of the Oriental arm of the Orthodox Church. So think Ethiopian, Armenian. So I end up getting christened. I become an altar boy. I'm a part of the whole thing. I love being an altar boy because you can't discard the blood of Christ with the communion wine. So they let the altar boys finish their communion wine.

This is true. This could be verified. I actually didn't know that. Yeah. So you think, you know, seven years old. We have grape juice in the Baptist Church, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We were doing a real thing.

So seven years old. And then something happened where there was some older altar boys of like early teens, like 12, 13, 14. I was like seven or eight. They ended up sexually assaulting me. And that ended up just completely doing a number on everything. Oh, yeah. In regards to God, regards to faith, regards to how the church didn't handle it,

didn't engage with it, and just kind of checked out. And I remember in fourth grade, I got my ear pierced. and I came to the church and my terhae, my priest at the time, like sat me down and confronted me about my, my earring. And I quotes Leviticus to me, and I'm like, dude, like, what?

You know? Even in fourth grade, it's like something's... Yeah, and then my mom was bitter at the church because they remarried my dad, which they technically shouldn't have because he, according to her, was never divorced from her. So she goes down to downward spiral of alcohol.

She does not like the church. I don't like the church because of what happened. And so I had to have been the youngest atheist on the face of the earth. Fourth, fifth grade, I'm like, there is no God. Like you would say that. Like you just flat out, no life after death. God doesn't exist. Yep, yeah.

Was it a combination of like the indoctrination or the teaching about God or just your experience of pain in the church or all of the above? You know, I think for me it was the problem of evil. Like, why would God, why would a good God allow this to happen to me? a good God, have my father leave, I would a good God, you know, allow me to go through this sort of stuff with, you know, being exposed to sexuality at a very early age and the sexual assault and the way it was handled. Those were the questions that I was kind of wrestling with initially. And then that sent me down just a crazy spiral of, you know, drugs, alcohol. I got, we were

breaking into homes, so I got arrested at age 11. We're breaking into a home. Seven years old you arrested. Yeah, I was caught hanging out of a bathroom window of a condo around the corner because we were trying to bail out our gang leader. Wow. Yeah, and so, you know, my mom's a single mom. She's frustrated. You know, she's like, dude, like, you're out of control.

And I, my first, like, real exposure to the gospel was when I got arrested, I had to do some community service. I was so young, they were just kind of like do 30 hours of community service and like, we'll leave you alone. The older kids that got arrested with me, their's was a bit more serious. Like they had like a whole, they had a probation officer and this whole thing. I just had to do community service. And I ended up doing it at a church that was connected to some folks in my apartment complex, Black Baptist Church.

And that was the first time in the mid-90s that I'm starting to hear about Jesus, you know. and they're telling me, you know, God has a plan for you, God loves you. And I'm like, no, you're like, there is no God. And if there is a God, he definitely doesn't love me. And that was my mindset. And they had this sweetness to them where they exhibited grace and truth. There was like an acceptance of like, you're a messed up kid and when we love you right where you are, but God has so much more than you.

And then, you know, it turned into these weird, like, kind of prophetic moments where it was like, God's, God's going to do great things with you someday. You're going to speak. Like they would tell you that and speak that to you. And anyone that knows like the idiosyncrasies of the Black Baptist Church, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, you know, there's a prophetic word every, every week type. Like their, their theology is a bit more conservative with regards to some of that stuff.

And so, yeah, I would get these, multiple people would give me these weird kind of words. And I was just like, no, you guys don't get it. And then as I'm getting off probation, I have to do, community service. So I'm doing it at the Black Baptist Church. I'm around Charlie and Willie who are taking me out and they're kind of playing as these like pseudo father figures to me because my dad wasn't really around. And eighth grade, we end up relocating from the normal heights, city heights area to Vista, which was like a suburbanish slower pace of life. And that was like my shot at like, okay, I knew that like I wasn't a tough guy. Like we weren't like, we didn't have

guns. We weren't like fighting and like, like we were just breaking in the, breaking the houses, stealing from stores, smoking weed, that sort of stuff. Move to Vista and it was like a clean slate. It was like, okay, cool. Like, I knew that this was a fresh start. You could have a clean slate in those days. It's a little harder today with social media, but you could start over. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was like, man, I'm going to go all in on basketball. Like, I'm going to be a professional basketball player. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And then my mom's boyfriend sat me down and explained a little something called genetics. I've been giving that talk a lot.

I didn't listen. I still tried. I tried. I tried my heart out. And then I ended up getting into basketball and music because you're coming from, you know, impoverished areas. You don't see a lot of opportunities to do anything. And so it was like sports and entertainment.

And the end of my freshman year, I won this talent show at Bringo Terrace Park. And I meet this girl at the talent show. and we start talking, we start dating. And the only way I could see her over the summer is if I went to church with her and her family on Sundays. And so I just casually start going to a church. And I'm, you know, whatever, like I'm here. But then like something just started to click slowly. The message of hope, the gospel, the idea that Jesus loves me, just slowly started and click.

Me and the girl break up. and now there's a Jehovah's Witness Girl I'm dating. Oh. And so now, and I got Mormon friends, and this is right around 9-11. And this is like, I'm, you know, I have a very diverse palette in terms of beliefs. You know, we're talking about aliens. We're like all of it. And I remember dating as Jehovah's Witness Girl reading, reading reasoning for the scriptures, trying to hear them out.

And at that point, I was convinced, like, Jesus is the son of God, but he's not God. all my he's not Yahweh so then I spent time trying to detangle that and my sophomore year the beginning of my sophomore year I lied on my application I said I was 16 when I was 15 and I ended up getting a job at Pizza Hut now this is this is how amazing how God works is that working at pizza hut my manager and our lead delivery driver then when I had been there the longest were both Christians both of them and so we're in the back you know pizza you're you got to prep the dough prep pizzas we're in the back. He's finishing a shift. We're just talking. And I'm, you know, I'm, I'm a theist at this point. But I'm confused. I'm confused as I'll get out. But I'm still going to this like church, you know,

but there's no, no one's explaining apologetics. No one explaining any of this sort of stuff. She's like a good inspirational church on Sundays. And I'm, and I'm wrestling with this. And so I start talking to this dude. And the manager's name is Barbara. And I'm telling them like, hey, like, yeah, I don't think Jesus is God. I think he's the son of God. And he's like, hey, I'm going to, I got you. And he brings me the new evidence that demands a verdict by your dad. Yep. And as a sophomore in high school, I get this academic-sized textbook. And I ended up reading it.

And that's kind of what, like, got my head on straight with regards to the theology side of things. Amazing. And then it was another year of, like, wrestling and getting out of that relationship, still being sexually amoral, going back to the Christian girl, still being sexually immoral, wrestling through it. but I at least had like, I understood with what I believed. And then after that, finally the end of my junior year, like I fully surrendered my life to Jesus

and started a Bible study at that same church called the Vessel, which was an open mic and Bible study. And so we had 100 young people coming every Thursday. It outgrew many of their ministries. And yeah, I really haven't looked back since. But kind of what I ran into is like, okay, cool. I believe in Jesus. I'm in church.

in a community group. I'm reading my Bible. Yep. But I still have all these issues. Like I'm still wrestling with sin. I'm still struggling with porn. I'm still doing these things. And I would read you know, every young man's battle. Read it multiple. I read these books. But there was

no like, okay, and now what? Right? Like I get the theology. I get the community. I get the Bible. But like, what am I supposed to do day to day as a young man full of testosterone with hopes and dreams? a lot of trauma. We weren't talking about therapy

and counseling back then as much, right? How do I navigate this? And so that's kind of the overflow of that, the culmination of that is like where the book Godly ambition ends up flowing out of it. We're going to come to that book. I have so many questions. I want to ask you about this.

Camber won't pick it up, but my dad is here watching. They came this morning, wanted to meet you. I got them to sign my new evidence that demands of verdict. That's so special to hear. That's a part of your story. story. So he talks about reliability of Bible, deity of Christ, resurrection, and that. It sounds like you

kind of believed the Bible was true on some level. Yes. You had to be convinced Jesus God. Were there any certain passages or stories that made you go, Jesus God? Or was it just reading the whole Bible through new lens was like, wow, this guy is divine? I think reading those sections in the book about the deity. And then going back and just reading John is like, oh, yeah, I mean, this is so obvious now, you know. And so, yeah, I would say that. John's, I mean, the book of John is incredible. The deity is all over it from in the beginning was the word.

The word was with God. The word was God. John 5, John 8, John 10, John 20. Deity is everywhere. All right. So let's, I want to shift to your channel. I kind of remember when you start on YouTube right away, I was like, oh, this guy is going to make waves and make a difference.

You could just see it. Over the past year, your channel's growing too. 226,000 subscribers. I'm curious why you think it's grown. Now, there's one level where you're ambitious, hence your book, you're smart, you're strategic, but you're obviously scratching where people itch. So what is it about who you are,

that people are drawn to watch it and what you do? I'd like to think that I have made an effort to care about what other people care about. my favorite parts of history class my sophomore year my senior year I had a class

with a guy named Mr. Haldago and I loved history because what Mr. O'Dago would do is almost every day we'd open with current events

we'd open with what's going on in the world today, the news. Great. And then you would tie that into stuff in history and connected to stuff in history. And it was always the most

like just captivating to me like we're going to talk about something relevant We're going to talk about something that is happening right now. And I think that was just something I've always enjoyed. And then like when I started leading Bible studies, you have these folks that are coming in and they have all these anxieties and all these worries and this happened and that in 9-11.

And all these craziness that's happening. And so we would open with whatever's happening and the concerns and the fears and anxieties that people would have. And then segue into what scripture has to say about it. And so I think YouTube was just an overfirm. flow of that because I just started listening to my audience. Initially I was on YouTube and I really didn't even want to talk about my faith much because I was a Christian hip hop artist and so I was like, I'm going to be on here to help Christian hip hop artists make a living and pursue their art. Need a daily spark of hope and direction? Let the Daily Bible app from Salem Media be that spark.

This free Android app delivers an uplifting verse each morning plus reading plans, devotions and trusted podcasts from leaders like Joyce Meyer and Rick Warren. Prefer to listen instead, the Bible app reads verses reading plans and chapters allowed handy for the headphones moment of your day choose from versions like ESV niv, kjv and more and bookmark favorites to revisit later share inspiring messages with loved ones right from the app feel god's presence in every notification search for daily bible app on google play and begin your day with hope purpose and peace a lot of it was marketing videos and life videos and that sort of stuff but then like my audience i was doing these weekly review streams of their music would send me their music, they review.

And I wasn't like the biggest Christian hip-hop artist, but I'd made a living providing for me and my wife and my son, you know, living in Southern California. That's like, 0.1% of artists in general as an independent artist. For sure. And I would just give people advice. And then they started asking me more questions. They started asking me about this thing or that thing and this scandal and just trying

like, hey, like, how do I process this? You know, and I remember it was really around the time, I want to say of Ravi Zacharise. and people just had, they were just so burdened by it, you know, and just started asking me. And I would just give my opinion on stuff, you know? And like that, for whatever reason, resonate with people. And then they asked me more. And the end of 2020 during the lockdowns, I was like, you know what?

Let me lean into this a bit more. I was already probably active on YouTube for like a year and a half. I think I was at maybe 15,000 subscribers. And I was just doing podcast clips, just like this. Me and my friends backstage, it shows. podcast clips and then I started doing live streaming and then I said, well, let me combine what people actually want for me and lean into the conversations. I think of the, I think there's a, I think it's in Philippians where, you know, he says, consider others above yourself. Like,

consider other needs. And so, like, if I have a degree of insight based on being in small groups, leading Bible studies for 15 years, let me lean into that, that expertise and the felt needs of what people are going through. I love hearing that trace is back to a teacher because I taught high school before I came to Biola 21 years. And I would do a lot of days where we'd just pick a new story. My angle was, how do we think biblically about this? And there's always some biblical angle. But you start with where people are at, felt need and interest, tie it into history, tie it in a Bible.

I don't do that on my channel, but I can see the power and significance and importance of approaching things that way. I had no idea there's a backstory. That's cool. So there's a lot of concerns about the church, and you're addressing issues that are popping up. But if you had to make like of a broad sweep of the evangelical church today, how do you assess it? Like, what are we missing? What do we need to do better in this cultural moment? I think the evangelical church, which often gets overlapped with conservative Christians, whether for good or for bad.

Yeah, agreed. Lacks vision for how we are to serve the marginalized and the distraught globalized and the distraught, globally and locally. And when there's not a clear vision casted for it, the trickle-down effects aren't good. And so then it bleeds into politics and we can, not that we are, because I think the data doesn't support this, but we can come off a bit distant, a bit callous, a bit hardened to hurting people and the craziness that this is this world. And I think if we cast the division for how to serve people, how to love people, how to

elite people, how to be the city on a hill, how to be the salt of the earth, how to be the light of the world. I think if we were more intentional to cast that vision, we would make more progress, I think, in a lot of regards. And so when we, when we haven't or we don't, and again, not that we don't do it, it's just the packaging of these things, then the world will hijack things like charity and, you know, quote empathy and all these things, which really aren't biblical. Like, Like there's a perversion of how they go about some of these things. And I think we just haven't been clear and we haven't casted that vision. And so then when that overlaps with, which I am conservative,

I've been way more conservative. I felt very pushed to the right the last couple of years. When that overlaps with politics, I think, you know, you're talking about like the harshness of how capitalism can come off, the harshness of how like, hey, we're going, no, we are going to legislate morality. And we don't care what you think about it, right? That can come off very callous to people who are blind and don't have ears to hear, eyes to see. So I think what we could do better, in my opinion, is cast a vision for love, unity, charity, beauty, goodness, and hopefully be known more by the things we're for and not by the things we're against.

I'm not sure what I expect you to say, but I don't think I expect you to say that. And I think there's a lot of wisdom in that. I'm an apologist, so I'm always talking about how we defend the faith and advance the case. one thing Oskina's said is if we don't have credibility, it doesn't matter what we say and what we argue for. Well, if we're not doing the things you're talking about, nobody's going to say, I want to be a part of that team, I want to be part of that club, because of the hypocrisy that's there. And the other thing, it's amazing. It's not like here's some new vision we need today. You're kind of saying, let's just go back to actually what Jesus did, what Paul did, what the Bible talks about.

I mean, there's been all this discussion recently about diversity. And it's like, okay, diversity is built in the Christian worldview, the character of God, one God, three persons, marriage, heaven of every nation. And so in some ways, we don't really need a new vision you're saying, let's lean into what Jesus really taught and live it out, bottom up. Love that. At some point, I left out of conversation what that could look like to cast that vision, to live that out in the church. Let's come back to it. I got another question for you. There's been a lot of talk recently about kind of the God conversation shifting.

I think one of the people that really kicked this off was Justin Breyerling, his book The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God. He kind of pieced some things together. He called that early, man. He called it early and took criticism for it. But we keep seeing these stories pop up, like Pew Research, some of the nuns at least has slowed down. The one in the UK recently about, I think he was, I had a kind of a decade or two ago, like, percent of 16 to 20-year-old, 24-olds went to church.

Now it's like 16 percent. We're seeing these conversions like Ion, Herci Ali. Do you sense, do you agree with that, given where you're at? Are you sense in a new openness in spiritual things and God compared to the new atheists in the past? I would say with Gen Z, yes. I'd say with Gen Z yes, because one of the data shows it, right? I want to say, is it 48% of Gen Z is Jesus curious or open to Jesus? That's a lot of people.

That's a lot of people. I would say with my generations, millennials, I think they have backdoored so many interesting things around worldview and ideology with Christianity that when they leave the church, they go the opposite extreme. They swing all the way to a very, in my opinion, disoriented, deconstructed, incoherent framework sometimes, not all the time. But I think Gen Z has not been as corrupted by some of the cultural issues as the millennials have been. And again, I'm not trying to – people have struggled with the faith for as long as there's been Christian.

They always will. What is the phrase? The dark – the soul, the crisis of the soul. The dark night of the soul, right? But I think millennials really went through it 2016. to 2020. Okay. And so now the Gen Z, they don't have that same baggage.

And so they're just looking at Jesus and the claims of Jesus. And yes, that does impact other things. And they seem to at least acknowledge that it's a more coherent and functional framework of the world. And that brings me a lot of hope. So is there a massive revival happening and all these sorts of things? I don't know. I mean, I will say like when I'm seeing Brandon Lake and Phil.

Wickham in stadiums and I'm seeing Forrest Frank, you know, be in arenas with 12,000 people on weekdays. Something seems to be shifting. You know, something seems to be shifting. And I think that folks have, you know, these generations, like the Gen Z, like, they're the most marketed to generation. And I think they're just tired of like repeatedly being told or indirectly told that like, hey, like, you're just a highly evolved animal in heat. And like you just need to, you know, go at the whim of your most primal urges. And like, like, Like that's what you're supposed to do. I think they go,

there's something deeper here. There's something more transcendent. There's something more beautiful than just like, let me just live my most primal instincts. And I like that. And they're willing to lean in and ask the hard questions. So I get that sense from Gen Z, yeah. The volume three,

Barnet study on Gen Z, if I remember correctly, it's about half of Gen Z years, haven't been to church in the past year. Now, someone can interpret that as a lack of spiritual curiosity. I think they're curious, but they're not going to the traditional routes that just go to church that others have in the past. I think they lack the bad experience with the church in some ways that previous generations did. Some of the deconstruction movement and some of the stuff you're talking about is reacting to bad experiences.

I don't think they have that bad experience, but also the lack of knowledge in the church. And hence, you're right. I think that other study by Barn about spiritual openness is like this is an open, curious generation. I'm not going to call it revival, but I do sense an openness and an interest in my experience as well. One of the things I love about you, Ruslan, is you're willing to talk with people who see the world differently than you do. I do this a lot. Sometimes I take criticism for it, whether it's progressive Christians, atheists, agnostics, you name it, looking for common ground. Why do you prioritize those conversations? And what's your goal? when you bring on people, not just Christians who differ over whatever theological issue,

people with a completely different worldview. Why do you prioritize that? I think there's utility in hopefully highlighting how we can disagree with people. I don't always do it perfect. Me neither. I sometimes, you know, I sometimes crash out on people, unfortunately. You know, the Alex O'Connor moment wasn't my best. I love that interview.

I don't even remember. We don't have to revisit it, but I love that you had him on after the West Huff thing. remember you guys pushed back and disagreed, but you got huge kudos to me just for doing that. Yeah. I think that would have been, I think that would have went better in person. I think we would have had a much better conversation in person. I could see that. Yeah. Because he was irritated and I was irritated that he was irritated. Anyway, but yeah, I think there's utility and hopefully demonstrating how to have these conversations. Yeah. People are having these conversations at Thanksgiving dinner. They're having these conversations at Christmas dinner. They're, they're, most people are around folks they

disagree with. And so I think there's utility in that. I also think there's cautionary tales that we can learn from the folks that they constructed and deconverted. And again, I don't want to hypergeneralize and say that all of it is invalid or anything like that. But I think there is utility. So like one of my honestly, one of my favorite people to talk to, and I do consider this dude of friend is like Tim from the new evangelicals. Like I really liked him. He's a good hang. And I think there's a lot to learn in terms of like what what shifted and what caused him to go the progressive direction. I think my friend Heliocentric, right, the atheist church. Amazing.

Just a good dude. We hang out. And I really really love talking to him because, again, like, how does someone go from like on fire Christian to like, I'm an atheist? And like not just an atheist. like they're like a materialist. I'm so intrigued by that. You know, yet his posture is he's very church friendly, you know,

he likes Christians, right? So I think that there's value in just having those conversations and hopefully learning from them to maybe help people avoid some of the things that they experienced, to the best of our control, right? So that we don't have to go through another mass like deconstruction era like we saw happen in that 2018 or 20. 2021 window of time.

I agree to those two. Number one, in terms of modeling a conversation, what it looks like, a green, disc green, and be willing to learn from people who see the world differently. You know, I've had this conversation off air about who we platform and who we don't platform. I have a certain system that I kind of work through. Okay, you don't have to tell me that because I need some guidance. Well, I'm not saying I got to figure it out. We could come back to that.

And, you know, I've made mistakes like everybody has for and against. And I don't think there's any perfect way to do it. be curious just when you think about, I mean, you've platformed some controversial people, Christians and non-Christians. What are at least some of the principles or thoughts that go through your mind when you're going to platform someone? I think I try to ask, like, is this a good faith person? Like, are we going to have a good faith conversation, or are they going to assume the worst about my motives, assume the most, the worst about what I represent? Or are they going to be open to it and at the very least try and be charitable? So I think that's one of them. That's fair.

I think I ask, can a conversation be fruitful? Can a conversation be edifying? Because sometimes you might run into someone, but it may not be fruitful for people. I think I'm also curious, like, is this interesting? Is this person interesting? Is there something going on here that's interesting? And then lately, I've also just been really trying to reevaluate of like,

is this is this a means to some sort of PR fixing? Is this a means because they want access to my audience and that's as shallow as it goes, right? I'll have people on that are atheist, agnostic, that I actually consider friends.

Like I talk to outside of all this YouTube stuff. But I think sometimes people are reaching out and it's like, hey, like we just want to be on here because of this PR campaign we're doing. And that I think is, yeah, I don't think that that's helpful. And then I'll say, and then also like if I push on this, if I push back on this person, are they willing to like take it, you know, and are they willing to be challenged or are they going to melt down and just completely collapse under any degree of pressure? Because I think that, the tension in those conversations, I think is also helpful.

You know, and so recently I had a conversation with Sam Collier, who was a pastor that went through a pretty massive scandal while being a pastor, got divorced. and it was pretty messy. And we had like a real conversation of like, like, dude, are you disqualified? You know, and I had to sit across from him. So I'm like, I wouldn't go to your church. Like, I wouldn't sit under your leadership, you know? And not that I think like divorce in every single circumstance

is always a disqualifier for ministry. But in this context, like, you kind of went through it and I had to challenge him on that. But like even the appearance of like, hey, you're bringing on a pastor, ex-hilsong guy, who went through a public divorce, really wild allegations, both parts on, you know, with the... Is that interesting and can that person take?

And Sam, Sam, Sam, take it like a champ, you know? He leaned into the attention. Did he know going in? You were going to press the way out. Yeah, yeah, we had a dinner and I'm like, hey, like, I'm not... And I'm pulling up the scriptures. Like, hey, man, like Titus, like Timothy, like... Want to keep God's word with you wherever you go?

The King James Bible Study KJV app by Salem Media makes it easy to read, study, share, and pray daily with a timeless KJV translation. Enjoy features like offline access, audio Bible listening, smart search, and tools to highlight bookmark and take notes, all designed to keep your Bible studies simple and organize. Best of all, it's free to download in the Google Play Store. Growing your faith every day. Search for King James Bible study, KJB, and download the app today. How do you rationalize this? It seems like there's a standard.

I'm not saying God can't use you. I think God uses women preachers, too. I think God or women, like God uses all sorts of people. And so that was like a good conversation. And he took it like a champ and, you know, he was very gracious. But like even that conversation is like, how can you talk to this? And I was like, why would we not want to talk to a person that went through this, had the massive blowout? And how do we not, how can we not learn from something like this, you know?

Good stuff. I got one or two more for you before we jump in your book. What are the questions? People ask me all the time, especially youth pastors, pastors, teachers. They're like, what are the questions Gen Z and Gen Alpha are asking? I've got my answer based on where I think the data points and just my experience. What questions do you sense tend to be biggest for like maybe college age and down or high school and down? I think questions around sexuality.

High percentage of Gen Z is identifying as a part of the LGTV. I call it. Sorry, I call it LGTV, a quoted LGBQIU. And the tricky part about that is just like that that cue. Like that cue kind of means whatever. It does. questioning queer. Yeah, it's just like a junk drawer term.

Yeah. You know. And so I wonder how much of that is like, these people are actually dealing with same-sex attraction in some way, shape, or form versus like, I don't know how I feel about, right? So anyway,

I think a high percentage of them are dealing with that. They have questions about that. Why does the Bible forbid these sorts of relations? What does that practically look like? What about my friends? Okay, right. I think there's real questions that they're asking. Agreed.

And then how does that practically look of like, hey, like, I'm going to come to faith in Jesus. But like, wait, I can't have sex with my girlfriend. Wait, I can't look at porn. Wait, you're telling me that like even masturbating is what? You know, I think those are real questions they have because we live in such a hypersexualized culture. And the interesting thing about Gen Z is when I looked at the number, though they're the highest percentage that identify as a part of that community, they're some of the least sexually active. So like the dad is like physically sexually active. It's the weirdest thing.

And so I think they have a lot of questions about that. I think there's a lot of questions about politics, you know, if I'm honest. And that makes me uncomfortable because, again, as someone that like I'm kind of, I've been like a centrist guy, sometimes center left, sometimes center right. And I've personally felt pushed in the right, you know. And there's like legitimate questions of like, hey man, like the guys evangelicals kind of all got behind. He's kind of a questionable dude, you know? And he has some serious things that have been. said about him. There's some serious stuff that's been impressed about. This is stuff he's, he said

and came out of his mouth. How do you reconcile that as a Christian? Like, I think that's a legit question, you know? It's totally fair. And so I think that that's one. And I think that's the age old, like the conversation of hell is always going to come up and how do we navigate that? And you mean to tell me that people who have never heard about Jesus are going to hell by default? Like, I think that that's a conversation. Hell and hell and evil are kind of the flip side, just suffering, problem in the world, God's judgment, which you, those are kind of timeless questions. I think people will always ask. That's fair.

That's a great response. I can keep going. I think they got a lot of questions. Good. No, that's awesome. That's really helpful. So you started kind of one of the impetus. Impetises, I don't even know if that's a word.

It's a word for this podcast. It is now to start was kind of the Ravi Zacharias scandal. That one was heartbreaking on so many levels, just devastating, especially as an apologist to me and so many friends and relationships at RZIM. Unfortunately, that wasn't the last one. They just keep coming and it's discouraging and it's devastating. It's the kind of people I go, it'll never be that person. So I just don't even literally say that anymore. Do you have a sense of why you think this is happening, what we can learn from it, how we can better respond, maybe a caution for leaders going into, because I don't think any of these people went into it saying they

wanted to fall. So what's your sense of why this is happening, what we should learn from it, what we could do better? Okay. So I'm going to read this verse verse verse. I think this is what the book's about, but I think this is the antidote to a lot of what we're seeing happening. Okay. So First Thessalonians four, Paul's writing the church in Thessalonica, they're going through with persecutions breaking out and they're kind of coasting. So they're, they're becoming apathetic, right? And so that a man who not work out, not eat, that's from, I think, second Thessalonians, right? So Paul tells them this in 1st, Aslonians 411, and make it your ambition to lead a quiet life.

You should mind your own business, work with your own hands, just as we told you, so that your daily life may win the respective outsiders, and so that you will not be dependent on anyone. So I think there's so much here with, like, what is a quiet life? Because I think people think quiet life, and they think, be quiet.

I don't think that's what a quiet life means. But I do think it means live in a way where you aren't the main character of your world. Live in a way where you have some degree of normalcy and you have some anchors in your life that can mitigate you being the superstar, you being the prodigy, you being the savant,

you being the guru, right? And I think we've allowed some of this to creep in that main character syndrome that people already kind of naturally have, but then that in our circles has crept in. And so we have a celebrity culture. And there's a difference between like, hey, you did something excellent and therefore God breathed on your platform and now you're you have an audience versus like you're famous for being famous. And then you carry yourself as someone that's famous.

And so like the world's big on like you're famous for being famous, especially in the last 20 years. And some of that kind of creeps into like now we have folks that are celebrities. And I think the antidote to that is like, hey, we need to humble ourselves. And humility is not the whole, you know, it's not about. It's not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking about yourself less, right? So quiet life, normalcy, rhythms, consistency in your day-to-day, go outside, touch grass, be around community, right? And, like, if someone's in a position of power and leadership, but they don't, they're always traveling, they're not at church on Sundays, they don't, they're, they're star, they're super star. Like, I get to be around celebrities, and the thing about celebrities is they got crazy sleeping patterns.

they don't stay in the same place for more than a couple days they're always moving around there's no rhythm to their days and like I get it like you're kind of you a guy like Kanye

like dude you just need to wake up in the same place for a year and do the same thing for a year and go deal with your mental health and so I think like when those dynamics creep into Christian circles we start thinking we're immune but it's like no dude like you can't travel

250 days a year and think you're gonna have a thriving marriage and a flourishing local community of believers that are going to keep you accountable. Like, I don't think that that's how that works. And so, like, leading a quiet life, I think it's huge, right? And people would say, like, hey, Ruslan, like, but you're a public figure. Right. And it's like, that's a follow-up.

Yeah. But, like, yes, and anyone that comes to my local city and sees me at church every Sunday, unless I'm preaching at a different church, sees me as accessible, sees me as around, sees me as present, my family's engaged. I'm very immersed in my local community and I'm submitted and accountable to people. Sometimes when you remove that and you're now a beetle

in your little circle of whatever and it's important work that these guys do, I think that's a recipe for a disaster. I think when we get into daily life, right? I think of First Peter, right? Let you live such good lives among the pagans that your daily life may win them over, right? So like that daily life,

no, like our lives are way better testimonies than how eloquent we are with our speech. And if we're not impacting our neighbor, like I mean, like our actual neighbors, and we don't know our neighbors, but we're out here running around, speaking at conferences and writing books, but our neighbors don't see our lives.

Like that's a problem to me, you know? And so I think like your daily life may win the respective outsiders. And then this is the last part, which is like, so you know, you will not be dependent on anyone. I think like in a desire to build something and outsource everything,

sometimes people don't do anything anymore because they've outsourced. They got an assistant. They got this person. And it's like, what do you even do anymore besides just talk? Right?

And people have like, you know, alleged like, oh, Ruslan's a professional yapper, right? It's like, you have no idea how immersed I am into the tech,

into the lighting, into the camera angles, into the algorithm. Like, I'm a practitioner first as a YouTuber. And I, and because there has to be something that you do

where you're not just dependent on outsiders. This is speaking specifically financially, depending on outsiders, but like working with your own hands. like, do you actually do anything besides just talk and pontificate, you know? And I think that would be, if I had to break that down, I think it's those three things.

It's like no quiet life, no daily rhythms, two out and about, and there's no, there's no, you don't do anything anymore. You just kind of talk professionally. That's really interesting. I could pull on each one of those. I've grown up with the dad who still just, you know, huge influence around the world, probably 80s and 90s, one of the most recognizable Christian figures, everywhere we went, people would recognize them.

And that was great. That was awesome. But I saw how hard he worked. I saw the cost that when you have a platform, the criticism you take. And in some ways, it just stripped me of the illusion of thinking, that is going to make you happy. That's what drives a lot of people with. You know, you talk about in your book, you mentioned how people often recognize you in public. And there's a part of you that wants recognition to feel worth.

Wow, that's such a human recognition. I heard James Gunn, obviously, the movie creator of like Superman and Gardens of the Galaxy, was like, I just made movies because I wanted to be loved, like a powerful moment. But you also talk about challenges you mentioned earlier in this interview. And in your book, Growing Up Fatherless, which can create just such a deep desire, like I want to be recognized and compensate for not having that love from a father. grown up in poverty, some people think it's just a lack of financial things, but there can be a deep sense of shame that comes to that. Success, ambition, material goods can cover up for that

and say, no, I'm not that guy anymore. I'm arrived. I'm successful. So in light of your own experience, I want to know how you mitigate that in your life and what encouragement you would have or warning for those who also come from a sense of brokenness so they don't be caught in just the negative things that come from worldly ambition. I have a chapter on identity and I talk about how our identity can't just be what the world says we are outside in identity. And some Jay Warner Wallis kind of helped me coin some, he coined the language. He's got a great talk on that. He gave me some good language for it that I didn't put in the book, but I think it's just cleaner. So outside in identity, like what the world says you are, the validation of the world results that you get,

inside out identity, which is like your subjective whims and feelings about who you are, there has to be something else. There has to be something transcendent. He calls a top-down identity, right? And so, like, I am not what I feel I am, and I am not what the world says I am. I'm not just my experiences. I'm actually who Jesus says I am. So if my identity is anchored and who Jesus says that I am,

that means I'm not a sinner, I'm a saint, right? That I'm the righteousness of God, that I am loved, I am welcomed, I am a friend. I am a disciple. I'm a follower. And so when I have a top-down identity, then the validation isn't needed from the world. And I don't need to mitigate my feelings of shame because Jesus deals with all of that. And not in just an abstract sense, but like in a tangible way of meditating on the scripture, allowing the scripture to change me, understanding that, hey, it's not just about chasing results. It's about chasing being faithful. not being famous, but being faithful.

And so if I'm committed to being faithful, the results will come. So the warning is folks who just want to be famous for the sake of being famous. There are worse things than not being successful, which are being successful at the cost of your soul, right? Being successful at the cost of your faith, being successful at the cost of your marriage. And if folks are just pursuing platform and status and fame, as that means in and of itself, it, man, it is so empty and fleeing and shallow. And I love what I get to do. I can tell.

It's not the end-all be-all. Like it doesn't, like being a dad is way cooler than being a YouTuber. Being a husband is way more fulfilling than speaking on stages. And that I think has to remain like, my first ministry is my home. That's at the end of the day is what I'm. you know, hey, Bible verses during dinner, rose and thorn traditions, trying to be immersed in that.

And like, if we're just pursuing platform and status, man, that usually will come at the cost of that. And so that's kind of how I think about it is like, man, it's, it's, it's not all it's cracked up to be.

And there's a weight and a heaviness that comes with it. And that's probably the way it should be. Like, you should feel like this is something that you shouldn't you shouldn't dabble with and it you know I know folks have become famous really quick accidentally it's it's a weight that they carry and I'm just I'm grateful that like God didn't really breathe on what I was doing until I was 35 36 years old you know in terms of like status influence access to to money that stuff didn't come and so later I'm you know 12 years married at that point like I'm 17 years married now and I'm grateful like I'm

grateful that it was a very slow, slow rise. And even now, like, yeah, there's just so much, there's other things that come with it that people don't factor in. I totally agree with that, by the way. So your book, Godly Ambition, you sent me an early copy, endorsed it, loved it, around the same time, the book, The Cost of Ambition comes out. I'm sure you. Want to keep God's word with you wherever you go?

The King James Bible Study, KJV, by Salem Media, makes it easy to read, study, study, share and pray daily with a timeless KJV translation. Enjoy features like offline access, audio Bible listening, smart search, and tools to highlight bookmark and take notes, all designed to keep your Bible studies simple and organize. Best of all, it's free to download in the Google Play Store. Growing your faith every day. Search for King James Bible study, KJV, and download the app today. Seeing this.

Miroslav Volf, a friend of Biola, did a class with him. Fantastic Yale Theologian, probably one of the leading public theologians of our day, I thought, how interesting. You know, here's like... Maybe me and him could get together and pass it out. That would be a great conversation. But really, you don't so much differ. Yeah. What you're saying, as I understand, like ambition is something from God.

Here's ways to use it wisely and steward the gifts. He's not saying ambition is bad. He's saying it's really when we have an ambition and we strive to be superior to other people as opposed to excellence. But you're coming at it. in the sense of here's how we use ambition. He's like, I have seen it abused, time out. So I don't think it's opposite.

It's different concerns. And he's like, one of the things he said in his book, it's like, we see ambition literally everywhere. If you just open your eyes up, he's like, I'm walking through the airport, and that guy's walking faster than I am. That guy has better shoes. Like, we just, it's literally everywhere in the church.

And so given our sinful natures, our own insecurities, and the amount of failures we've seen of people trying to be ambitious and it affects them, why not just live quiet lives in the sense of not playing by the playbook of the world and saying, I'm just going to love my neighbor, be good at work, and not even step into this when it can cause so much damage. Because I think Jesus is calling us to more. And I don't mean more materialism and more stuff.

I don't think that's what it is. I think Jesus is calling us more with faithfulness, with stewardship, with management. I think Jesus is calling us more with impact. I think Jesus is calling us more to virtue. And if the pursuit is like, I'm just going to coast, I'm just going to cruise control, or worse, I'm going to punt it. I'm going to punt it because the world's going to hell in a handbasket and I can't wait for Jesus to return next Thursday. How are we salt and how are we light and how are we ushering in God's ways and God's beauty on this side of eternity? And so I think there's a reorienting of ambition away from a worldly standpoint that I'm trying to do, right?

So there's two different words for ambition in the Greek. One of them is the Edithia ambition, the selfish, the clobbering, the probably what we would acknowledge is in our society and in our culture, right? Like I'm sizing people up, I'm going to, right? Like superiority complex. The scripture absolutely forbids that. That's when we see selfish ambition. It's usually referring that. But the ambition that First Thesslonians talks about, the ambition that Paul writes about where he says,

I make it my ambition to preach the gospel where others have it. I make it my ambition to please God, right? So it's interesting. That's a different word. I'm a butcher the Greek. It's filial monte, I think. And when I was talking to West Huff, he broke down to etymology of it. I'm sure he did, man.

The filial is like a Philadelphia, like the brotherly. The love. It's an ambition out of the love for people. out of an aspiration to serve people. And we see that exhibited in Luke, where at the Last Supper, Jesus washes their feet. He says, one of you guys are going to betray me. He's about to go to the cross.

And what do they do? They start arguing about who's going to be the greatest. Who's going to be the greatest? And it's like, first of all, like, I mean, come on. Like, just completely misreading the room. Totally. Right? And this isn't the first time they've had this argument.

They've had this argument multiple times about who's going to be the greatest. They're still expecting a political Messiah. And in Luke 22, Jesus does something really interesting. He doesn't rebuke their desire for greatness. He doesn't, which he could have done. He rebuked Peter, right? But he doesn't rebuke their desire for greatness. He had no problem rebuking people.

He doesn't reject it. He doesn't say, you dumb people. What are you doing, right? He redefines what greatness is, and then he redirects it towards serving people. He, who wants to be great, ought to be the biggest servant of them all. I came to you as one who's willing to serve. And when I see that, I go, okay, that's it. Like the pathway to greatness and the pathway towards godly ambition is service,

it's stewardship, and it's sanctification. Like it's walking through those things in a way that encompasses the beauty and the goodness of what we're supposed to do here on this side of eternity. And so why not just coast? is because we have some work to do here, right? And that's controversial, because us Protestants, we're like, oh, I don't talk about works. I don't want to hear about where's work salvation?

Well, the Protestant work ethic, let's go, man. Hello, Protestant work ethic, right? And so, yeah, I think that's why. Like, I think we have some work to do here now, and that is a good thing, and that we don't work for grace. We work from grace. And there's also people that, there's also, okay,

this is going to get more practical and controversial. People love to quote 1 Timothy 6, for the love of money is the root of all evil. They skip 1st Timothy 5, which the Apostle Paul is writing and he's telling them, he who does not provide for the needs of his family, specifically his immediate family is worse than a non-believer and is denied the faith.

That's one of the most horrifying passages in scripture. If you're a young man and it's like, hey man, you can't provide for your family. And what was that in context of stuff? That wasn't just in context of like, hey, like, me and my wife both work and we ship our kids off to public school. And, right, like, no, no, no, that's about widows. So he's talking about taking care of the widows in the church who can't remarry. And if they have family, like, you need to take care of your old folks.

Like, you need to care for the folks around you and not ship them off to homes like we are so prone to do, right? Multi-generational living. And so if we're not extracting that. And then it says specifically your immediate family, right? So if there's no godly ambition, explain to me how we take care of our extended family and our immediate family. Explain to me how in a time where the wealth disparity is just increasing, the housing market is crazy, it's very difficult for people.

It is. And I'm not saying everyone is going to be successful and name it, claim it, blah, it, grab it. But if we're not helping and equipping young men to say, hey, I got to, I'm a provider and I'm going to figure this thing out and I'm going to put my head down. If we're not equipping people to do that, they're going to have a rude awakening when they're 28, 29, 30, and they have a kid and their wives, which, by the way, the vast majority of women prefer to stay home. Not Christian women, not conservative women, women with kids prefer to stay home at least for a season. This is Forbes magazine. This is multiple studies done on this, secular studies.

What is it going to happen to these folks when they're 30 and they didn't develop any useful? skills and they didn't get educated and they're and they're not an asset their liability to their employer like so that's what i mean like so it's like i think respectfully i think some of this don't be ambitious comes from a very privileged standpoint i think some of this like you need to learn the sabbath better easy for you to say mr 45 year old multi-millionaire uh-huh yeah so so i i get irritated when people are like i've i've made it but like we lose down here i have a 10 15 million net worth. We lose down here. You know, and it's like, dude, that's not what young men need to hear.

Like, young men need to be told that, like, because Jesus loves them and just transform them, that they can become the type of person that can impact society, culture, and lead a family well. I think this generation, especially boys and young men are eager for that message. You can make a difference. You have worth. Go for it. I think that's partly why your channel resonates.

And I think why your book will. By the way, Volfe is not saying don't be ambitious. He's very ambitious. He's just saying there's warnings that come along with it. And you talk about those in your book, too. Let me just, because you're right on home, but let me just poke on something real quick. Do it.

What inspired this book, and I'll tell you who this is offline and people can piece it together. Several years ago, I saw a viral video clip on Facebook that was titled All Ambition is Evil. Wow. The person is reading the text that says selfish ambition. He keeps skipping the word selfish. Goes on the call, ambition, demon.

demonic while ironically standing on a well-lit stage in a beautifully assembled outfit with amazing camera angles and a social media team that clip this together to make it to knowing this would go viral to make it how dare you like how dare you tell that to people while exhibiting ambition like the irony of something like that so i'm not speaking about your friend but i do think that there are people that have called ambition. The world calls it God and the world says, go after it. And then the church goes, it's demonic and it's satanic and it's evil. And it's like, man, there's a better way forward.

There's a third option that's better. Totally fair. That's not his point. Here's an example of one thing that he draws out. Yeah. Is that he says his concern with ungodly ambition, not godly ambition, is that it can it can naturally build in a sense where we see people as pegs to our achievement and possession and success rather than image bears.

And I see this. Sometimes the way people treat me, I'm like, oh, I see the angle that's going on here because maybe I have a platform or whatever I do. I'm sure you see that with you as well. And honestly, I catch myself sometimes. I'm like, man, am I treating that person differently? Because I can get something from them rather than somebody, made in the image of God, I can't get anything from.

And my parents often told me, you know, they're dating advice. was like watch how somebody treats somebody who you can get nothing from that tells you their character that's good and so partly what he's saying is this sense of striving can lead us to dehumanize people and use them rather than value them so what safeguards can be put in place when it's like i want to succeed yeah i want to make a difference i want to have godly ambition but i don't want to use people. I'm going to love people. Yeah, I think one, I have a chapter in there on prayer. I think prayer is essential to all of this, right? A consistent rhythm of prayer and not just prayer for your own dreams and goals. I start prayer off with praise and then I pray for other people

before I ever pray for myself. So I'm constantly thinking about other people. I think in a healthy local church community where you are positioning yourself to serve and not just contribute, excuse me serve and not just consume but contribute that forces you to walk through the process of like I'm not the center of the universe kill the main character syndrome let me consume myself with serving other people so I think that that's a way to do it and then ultimately like when when I'm meeting people I'm genuinely asking myself how can I help this person how can I serve this person what do they actually want what are they after right and what can I do to do to to be a blessing to them, right?

And sometimes it's like, nothing. I got nothing for you. Other times it's like, what do you want? Oh, you know, you want to come on my podcast? Okay, you might come on my podcast, and it may not, it's not going to do what you think it's going to do, right? That's true. Right?

It's like, oh, no, this podcast will do what you think of, just for the record. Prepare yourself. I mean, think of how often, I'm sure this happens to you. It's like, people were like, hey, like, if I could just end up on your thing, then my thing will, and it's like, that's not how any of this works. That way. You know? And so I'm, but I'm always trying to consider like, what do people want?

And can I hope? You know, and the 99.9% of people that I meet, man, they just, they just want some affirmation encouragement. They might have a question or two. They need some prayer. I was leaving the Apple store yesterday. A guy walks up to me, tears in his eyes. Hey, man, like, I'm going through a breakup.

Your content has blessed me. You know, and he can't even, can't even speak. And like, in that moment, he just needs, he just need a prayer. You need a prayer needed encouragement. I invited them to our free live event that we're doing during a book launch, our church are you in, where you're connected to, where you're connected to, how's it going? How do you like working here? And so I think letting, like really serving people, I think is a great way to anchor.

And that requires us to ask questions. Because sometimes people don't know how to ask questions. It's like you just, again, main character syndrome, but stopping and slowing down and asking questions. So those are, I think, a few of the safeguards that like, hey, anchor your life from prayer, plug into a local church and serve. Don't just be a consumer, be a contributor. And then I think like when you meet people, figure out what did they need and what do they want

and can you help them do the thing. We can't help everybody. We're not going to change everybody's lives. But we can do little things that can radically move someone's day. Like someone's day can be impacted because they had an interaction with you, you know? You know, teaching high school for me for years, I'd like to think help built some of this in

because I was youth pastor before, showed up in high school teaching Bible on it. These kids are going to love me. I'm young. I'm dynamic. And it's like, we don't care who you are. We don't give a rip about that stuff. Is your class interesting and irrelevant?

I had a kid go, what do I have to do to get a C minus in your class? Wrong question. I know. But then he came back later and we had a great conversation. But it's just I want to emphasize from people watching that just doing things in life where people don't know or care who you are. you're just reminded, so you're not just talking about issues, but doing it. Like when I was teaching high school, it was really interesting.

I'd show up and I'd do a retreat at a place. But then when I'm at a Christian school and I'd see people show up and give a retreat and then hear the students process it. I was like, oh, this is very different. I'm getting kind of an inside scoop here. So one of my big encouragements to people who want to be influencers, you know, whatever that means and why is like, why do you want to do it? how are we going to use your platform and are you just doing things outside of this where people

don't know or care who you are hopefully that's going to build in some some accountability that's there yeah so a question i also want to ask you people ask me this all the time and and i've got my answer for it but how do you get so much done ruslan like what's your secret man you're pumping out i don't know four videos a week you're working out you're doing all this stuff. I'm like, dude, how is he so, I don't even know the word you used, like just so efficient and knocking out so much stuff? I would like to think that it's the systems that we build in in our day-to-day lives and a day-to-day rhythms. I attempt to break my weeks and my days down into non-negotiables. And so weekly non-negotiables, like, hey, I'm going to go to church, non-negotiable. man, the Catholics and the Orthodox sometimes get it right.

Where isn't it like a, it's like a serious sin if you miss church without good reason? What is the word, right? I can't think of the word. But yeah, non-negotiable. Like church is non-negotiable. I get to be in a group of young men. Not young men, we're not young anymore. Men are age.

How old are you? I'm 40 now. You're young, man. I'm 49. I'm turning 50. Wow. I was just talking to Alan Park. He told me he's turning 50, man.

You guys are great for 50. So access to community I think helps a ton And so those non-negotiables So daily non-negotiables, right? So James Clear has a quote He says, you don't rise to the level of your goals You fall to the level of your systems.

You don't have, if you could have all the goals in the world You can, I wouldn't, but if you don't have those daily systems Then it all falls apart. And so for me, I spend less time trying to have goals. Like I don't have one million subscribers by this month

or I want to make this month I don't have those sorts of goals. I say, hey, I'm going to do the inputs consistently enough that would get me in the ballpark of said goals.

But God has to ultimately breathe on those things. God has to make those things happen. Right? Like I can't control if this book becomes a bestseller, right? But I can do the inputs. I can say,

man, what are the felt needs of the people I'm speaking to on a regular basis and how can I write something that can compress time for them? Stuff that it took me 15 years to discover, maybe they can do in two years. And if I do that and I do the inputs and I do it well,

God can breathe on it, we may not breathe on it, right? I can't control all those variables. So I just consume myself with the daily non-negotiables, health, fitness, outside, touch grass, family time, a weekly rhythm of like making sure me and my wife have good conversations. We check in. We're processing stuff together, right? And I think if we build those non-negotiables, the outcomes will come.

I think most people consume too much with the outcomes or they're doing the wrong non-negotiables. They don't know the inputs to get the outputs. And so it's like if you get the right inputs, so let's just take an example with fitness, right? You and I both know that, hey, man, little micro habits tracking your food, working out, 10,000, 10,000 steps a day, properly training, right? You do those things long enough. Stay in a calorie deficit. you eat the right amount of protein, your body will transform. And I think we underestimate that that is applicable to other areas of life, right?

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Search for the Daily Bible Devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store and download it today. Advancements. Little small investments every single day. You don't got to be in the gym for three hours a day. 30 minutes a day, efficiently, right amount of protein. Six months from now, a year from now, you look like another human. Why do you think that developing that skill that you know you need to make up so you can be more efficient at your craft? Why do you think that's any different, right?

Why do you think finances and getting out of debt is any difference? It's incremental investments, daily little investments, they lead to monumental advancements. And so that's all in our systems. When we were $100,000 in debt, struggling, living paycheck to paycheck, before YouTube, before I made any real money as a Christian musician, me and my wife listen to Dave Ramsey every single day. Religiously, we really drink that Ramsey Kool-Lay. We did a budget all the time.

We put money in a cash envelope system so we didn't overspend. And we worked our faces off so that when we knew, hey, when we have kids, I want my wife to stay at home. When we have kids, we don't want to be living paycheck to paycheck. And within 18 months, we were debt free, right? And this is in 2011, right? This stuff is possible. But again, like our ambitions are zapped, either by the world making ambition God or the church saying it's demonic and it's bad and it's evil. But we need these things, especially if you're coming from poverty.

Like especially if you're coming from single parent household. trauma, serious issues that you need to work out. If you don't develop those systems, man, it's going to be hard. Systems is huge. One of my, I'd call my heroes, mentors, friends, William Lane Craig has just had incredible impact. And his philosophy is like, I'm just going to be faithful and disciplined today. He's got systems, work out, study the Bible, pray, and just chips away stuff.

And it's disciplined at that. And over time, you have an impact. So that makes sense. That's right. So your book is called Godly ambition. What about somebody who goes, Ruslan, godly ambition, I can't even get out of bed. Like you're telling me to have godly ambition. I don't even have ambition. So especially today, there's a lot of people we're hearing about depression and anxiety and mental illness. There's books on like how to get out of bed. What do you say to somebody if they're still watching this going, these guys are talking about

trying to change the world. And I mean, I can't even find a job and get out of bed in the morning. Yeah, I'm going to be vulnerable And I'll look into the camera and just say like I don't know what it's like to deal with chronic anxiety I don't know what it's like to deal with chronic crippling depression I don't want to speak into something that I don't know It would be like you asking me on like give people advice on how to raise teenagers I don't have no teenagers I got nothing for you

You know However I think Sometimes it's latching on to that little bit of hope and saying what is the next thing you can do right now. Maybe it is literally just getting out of bed. Maybe you can get out of bed, but you just need to go on a walk. If you're in Southern California, we get to take walks in the summertime, right? If you're in other parts of the world, maybe not.

Maybe it's going on a walk. Maybe it's, hey, I'm going to pull up a tutorial and learn one thing today, right? So I think it's latching on to that next step. And in that, that may mean, hey, I might need to go see a therapist. hey, I might need to go deal with this in a way where you might need to take medication for a season. But I would say, what is that one thing you can do? And that one little thing can lead into another thing and another thing and another thing. And before you know what the needle moves.

But I would be here faking the funk, Sean, if I was like, I've dealt with crippling anxiety where I couldn't get out of bed for months. That's heavy. And that's something different. And that's something that I think, I think in really debilible. that's hate people. And so I would say, seek help, seek treatment. I think we need to stop making that a taboo in Christian circles. There are people that need treatment, need therapy, may need medication. I would say, and maybe that's the first step. And then from there, it's what can you tangibly do?

Is it just going outside and going on a walk? Is it pulling up a tutorial and trying to learn something new? Baby steps, baby steps. And, yeah, I don't, I don't, I ain't got much on this. That's fair. No, that's totally fair. I'm not an expert on some of the crippling depression. You know, one thing I just would throw in there is, it's true for anybody. Like, give ourselves some grace. Yeah, yeah. Like, just that's the root of the Christian faith. We all need grace in different ways.

Sometimes people need grace because it's like I just worked too hard and I strove too much. The opposite side, you just need some grace because your identity is not rooted in success. It can be on both sides, whatever it is. the other thing I really there is having a father who's has been incredibly ambitious in his life. I still don't know how he spoke at 1,200 universities, 160 books. I mean, just incredible. And for me to survive in terms of what I do is I gave up comparison games a long time ago. That's good.

I have no interest in being the next Josh McDowell, whatever. Like, that's a losing game. I just, I ask myself, what's, what gifts does God give me? What opportunity has he given me? And how do I faithfully keep moving forward and doing better? And that's actually one of the things Wolf talks about. It's like, don't compare yourself to anybody else. Just compare yourself to where you were with the hope that you're moving forward.

And that's some of what you're saying. It's just like, do one thing today and move forward. And so I would definitely say for people who want to be, who are ambitious and want to accomplish things, like don't compare yourself to others. I don't compare myself to you. I don't compare myself to William Lane Craig. Like, let's celebrate the differences

of what people are accomplishing for the kingdom. I have two more questions for you, and then we'll wrap up. But from the moment I met you, and it feels like it's only been about three years, is right away, I remember seeing your channel. I'm like, I don't know who this guy is. I don't know anything about him,

didn't know your music, my bad. Right away, one of the things that struck me is like, wow, he's a collaborator. I wonder if this is genuine just because I didn't know you. I mean, the more I probe in, I'm like, wow, this guy really is celebrating other people's success. We're at ETS and you're like bringing all the YouTubers together, having a meal, talking, collaborating, how do we help each other out? Where does that heart come from? And how can we be better collaborators that celebrate the success of others rather than be threatened by it? or compare ourselves to them?

Collaboration does a couple things for me. One, it eliminates that selfish competitive spirit where I have to clobber, that selfish ambition. So if I'm collaborating, I don't see any of my colleagues as competition. I just don't see the world that way. I don't see it in a zero-sum game of like, if people watch your channel, they'll be less likely to watch my channel. I think there's enough people out there and enough people

that everyone can be successful on these platforms. Now somebody will say, that's not how math works, right? Like, I serve a supernatural god of multiplication. It's not a fixed pipe. People are listening to more content in different ways. Yes, yes, exactly. So one, I think it anchors me to say, let me kill that, like, unhealthy competition that I naturally had as a rapper, that, like, which is very competitive, it's very self-centered. Let me kill that.

I think another thing that it does for me is that I'm not trying to build a cult of personality. I have zero desire to build a cult following, right? Because if that's not healthy either, and that's the name of the game as an entertainer. It's like niche down, cult of personality, you're the guy, you're the niche, right? And then also, when I collaborate, it takes the pressure off of me to be the expert

because I'm not an expert. I'm, you're the expert in your field. That makes me nervous, but keep going. I mean, you're educated, you have your doctorate, you're a professor, I could point to actual experts. And then that takes the pressure off of me to be this guy that I'm not. I don't know anything about manual. I know what West Huff tells me, okay?

I don't know anything about manuscripts. Right? So I'm going to point to Wes. I'm going to say, hey, this is really good. You know, check him out. So I think when we collaborate, then we can actually lean in and celebrate other people's expertise. And this is, I mean, this is a practical hack for people trying to get on social media.

Stop trying to be the source of everything and be the expert at, 23 years old on TikTok, highlight some other voices of some other experts, and that takes the pressure off of you to not pretend to be this person that you're not. And so I've just, the more I've gotten into it, I'm like, man, I can't do what Mike Winger does. The dude is like, the dude talks like chat GPT before chat GPT existed, like 11 hour video on women in ministry. Oh, bro. I've never even seen a video that long on YouTube, right? This is crazy. Let me point to him and celebrate him. I agree. Because he's just wired him.

He's like a savant in the way his brain works and you can go deep. And hundreds and probably thousands of hours of research on videos, let me celebrate other people. So I think there's very practical things in that. And I think I was so jaded with the Christian rap world where I came out. Right now it's much better. But I came out of a very cutthroat. And this is weird to say about Christian route. But I came out of this very competitive ego-driven era that like when I got into this,

everyone was just nice and friendly and willing and not like holding back compliments you know and I'm like yeah like let me point to other people I think it serves so many practical things and I genuinely love our space like there's nothing like our space it's really awesome and everyone is very kind and most folks are 100 times better than they are in camera in terms of just how generous they are I agree that that's my experience you know I just think you remember a camp called camp of the woods probably 20 years ago my dad friends Frank Turk and myself were speaking and it was done. My dad said, he goes, my books are in the back, but if you buy one book, he goes, buy Frank Turk's book. That's the most important one. I don't remember what Frank talk on. I don't even remember what my dad talked on. But that had an impression on me, and I'm not saying I do this perfectly.

But like some of the just competition and criticizing people just, it wears me down. And there's a time and place to correct. People give me correction. I'm like, you're right. Learn from that one. keep going. But like cheering people on and collaborating, the enemy is too great to spend too much time not doing that.

All right. Last question. I'm curious, what are you leaning into on your channel right now, like moving forward? Like for me, I'm really convinced that things like near death experiences, supernatural encounters are real. And I don't think a lot of people are doing it carefully and well. And I think apologetics, afterlife apologetics is something I'd love to see way more apologists lean into. That's one thing I'm focusing on. But tell me one or two things moving forward that you're going to be focusing on. Yeah. And by the way, we reacted to one of your near-death experience videos

last week. Oh, nice. Yeah, it was really good. That whole conversation is so fascinating. Yeah, I think we're trying to figure out how to integrate some of the chapters from the book into the content so that way there's a more, there's a more robust experience we're creating for people. So as the book is coming out, I'm speaking more, I'm preaching at churches, we have the Bless God Summit. We're trying to really integrate some of that into the content and go a little deeper in the practical sense of sanctification, right? Meaning that it's really easy to just like, boom, hit them with the gospel. Okay, yes, hit them with the God. Every video to me should go back to the gospel in some way, shape, or form.

But I think it's like hidden with the gospel and then, like, what are we saved to? and I'm trying to really integrate that into the conversations. And I think also just being more intentional with good podcasting. Like I think we would have really good conversations, conversations like this that are that I'm spending time, well-researched, going through people's books and trying to drive up and trying to figure out how to package that in a way that's interesting and intriguing to the audience.

I love it. Well, you're on Instagram. You're on X, right? Yeah, barely. I was like, right? I don't remember seeing a ton on there now and then. YouTube channel is great. Some of my team, they're like,

we listen to everything he throws out there. Book, Godly Ambition, thanks for giving me a chance to endorse it. I think it's excellent. Oh, I would highly recommend it. I guess I can say this being maybe a decade older than you, but just really appreciate you. Proud of you. Just want to encourage you to keep doing what you're doing.

I know your honor in the Lord and making a difference. Hey, thank you for having me. This was a surreal moment in many ways, right? Getting to meet your dad, getting to have this conversation. You endorsing the book, it's been really. humbling to say the least. Well, Lord willing, this is just the beginning of many more. Amen. Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that follow button on your podcast app.

Most of you tuning in haven't done this yet. And it makes a huge difference in helping us reach and equip more people and build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every review helps. Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell show, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where we have on campus and online programs, an apologetic, spiritual information, marriage and family, Bible, and so much more. We would love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and defend the Christian faith today. And we will see you when the next episode drops. No matter what you're going through, you are not alone.

Sis, if you've experienced pain in your father-daughter relationship, I want you to know that you are loved and seen. I'm Kea Stevens, host of the Hope for Women with Father Wounds podcast, and I created my show to help you exchange. your father wounds for the love of God the Father. Join me for encouragement, wisdom, and scripture. Just search Hope for Women with Father Wounds on lifeodio.com or wherever you get your podcast.