The Sean McDowell Show - Sharing Jesus on the Joe Rogan Podcast (Adam Curry Comes to Faith)

Episode Date: June 4, 2024

Adam Curry is a podcaster, announcer, internet entrepreneur and media personality, known for his stint as VJ on MTV and being one of the first celebrities personally to create and administer Web sites. He's been on Joe Rogan recently talking about his faith! Check out his podcast "No Agenda" with new shows available every Sunday and Thursday. READ: "Evidence that Demands A Verdict" (https://amzn.to/3QqF1pY) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: @sean_mcdowell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org

Why would a former MTV VJ and the pod father who recorded the first podcast and successful entrepreneur come to Christ in his 50s? It's about love. Yeah. It's all about love. Yeah. If there's an evil force, there must be an opposite force. There must be good. God is real. Jesus existed. Our guest today is Adam Curry, and I've followed his professional career for a while, but about a year or change ago, he mentioned on the Joe Rogan podcast his conversion to Christianity, drops evidence that demands a verdict, and instantly I thought, I've got to have this guy on to talk about his story. So, Adam, good to meet you, man. Thanks for coming on. It's a pleasure and a privilege to meet you, Sean. You are a big part of my story, man. Oh man, I am so touched.

I can't wait to get in to this. Now I imagine some of my audience, this might be the first time that they see you, maybe haven't tracked in music world, your podcast. To someone not familiar with your career, before we get your faith journey, how would you answer the question, who is Adam Curry well for anyone 50 and under you probably remember me from MTV I had really big hair and I did the headbangers ball and I was on almost every afternoon outside of that a lot of people in Europe may remember me from the very,

very early eighties. I actually started my television and radio career in, uh, in Amsterdam, where I grew up. My, I was born in DC, but my parents moved there when I was seven. Uh, and there's definitely a lot of people who watch, uh, who watch your, your show over there. Um, and, uh, probably, uh, or this, uh, it's interesting because podcasting is, you know, a thing, but 20 years ago is when I co-invented it with Dave Weiner and no one really knows, you know, like who, you know, like who invented podcasting? It wasn't that Apple or something? Because, you know, most young people were so young, they have no idea when that started.

Uh, but it was, it was about 20 years ago um and actually thanks to joe rogan who invited me on his show um just before covet hit in uh very early 2020 he recertified me like you're the guy you're the guy you started it and that was it was really lovely because um because of that i've been able to do some more things and enhance podcasting even further. Um, but yeah, in, in short, that's who I am. I also, for the past 16 years have been co-hosting the no agenda podcast with John C. Dvorak, where we, um, well, we just, we dissect, we disassemble and we deconstruct media because we both come from it and it's mostly dishonest deceitful and meant to get you to buy a product usually another entertainment product um and i

think that we've been helpful for at least a generation maybe two uh to be able to sift through the mind control and the amygdala um shrinking or enlarging media that has controlled a lot of people, including now algorithms online. Well, I watched your discussion with Glenn Beck where you shared a little about your faith journey and how you really thought through sharing your faith on the Joe Rogan podcast. That was very intentional on that platform. We're going to come to that because I'll get unpacked, but let's take a few steps back. Tell me about your family growing up, your parents, were you raised religious at all? Tell us about that. Well, of course, in hindsight, I realized that there was a lot more,

I wouldn't say faith, but religion was around me, and I think there's a distinct difference, although the two, of course, go hand in hand. My grandparents were certainly faithful people, I realize now. My grandmother, whenever we were assembling, you know, with a lot of the grandkids, the oldest grandchild before we all would leave would have to read Psalm 121, which was from her King James version, which was the going away prayer in our family. And we all dreaded it because there's a lot of ye and yay. And I was like, I can't, and you have to read it from her Bible. But my parents, definitely not religious, although I do remember very early on, I grew up the first six or seven years, combination of Uganda where they were stationed for a little bit, but then in Maryland.

And they decided to go to a Unitarian church. And so I went to, for a little bit, went to Unitarian Sunday school. I had no idea what was going on. They were talking about, I had no background. I didn't know, who's Joseph? Who are these people? I did not understand. Then when we moved to the Netherlands when I was seven, they hooked up with, I presume were other expats who also were,

they kind of formed their own Unitarian group. And we would go and hang out. And that didn't last too long for me because I remember early on, they decided, oh, we're going to do something with our group. And we got up on Sunday at three in the oh, we're going to do something with our group. And we got up on Sunday at three in the morning, drove for hours to find a hill, which is hard to find in the Netherlands, very flat country. And then we all sat up there and then we watched the sunrise while on a little cassette recorder they played Cat Stevens' Morning Has Broken. And that ruined sunrise and Cat Stevens for me for a long, long time. I'm like, no, this, this, I don't know what this is, but that's not what I'm looking for. And, you know, I was working at a very young age. I was on television and radio when I was 19.

So even though I've, especially in the Netherlands where the, you know, even growing up a lot of Catholics, Protestants, a lot of Jews. I grew up with several of my friends. Their grandmothers had numbers on their arm, so I learned a lot of stories about persecution, for sure. Also, a very Calvinist-type society. But it was really never anything for me. I have no problem with it.

It's all good. I think I probably believe more in the universe. You know, there's probably some higher power, you know, the typical things you would hear. And that was really it until my wife and I, we, we've been together nine years and we actually met in Austin, Texas. And about, this is about three years ago, we decided to leave Austin and reenter the state of Texas. We moved to, uh, a little, uh, little town about 80 miles West called Fredericksburg, which is actually quite famous for its, uh, its hill country wineries and it's old German,

uh, town. And I don't need to be connected to any city per se. So it's nice, about 11,500 people. On the weekends, it goes up to 50,000. And we've been talking about faith a little bit, and we were kind of getting nudges. And she was actually looking for a church. We hadn't done much with it. But then a couple of things happened. I would say the main thing that happened is Naomi Wolf started writing substacks during COVID. And Naomi Wolf, probably not my type of writer, you know, is like very leftist. It's like, okay. But a friend of mine sent it to me who was working on dave jones working on some

podcasting stuff and she was she basically said you know look at all this evil that's happening around me and she's talking about evil it on the you know upper east side new york you know dinner party says the stuff that people how they're acting and what they're doing this is um these people themselves aren't evil there must be something else there must be an evil force and if there's an evil force there must be an opposite force there must be good and so she was starting to find as a jew starting to find her faith which i found it fascinating and my wife and i were supposed to go to aruba on a vacation. And twice we got in the car at three in the morning and the flight was canceled. And then the flight was canceled again. And the driver

at the time, just some boy here, you know, like a good old country boy from Texas. He said, well, looks like God's got other plans for you. Oh yeah, I guess so. And, but I'd take, I usually work on Sundays doing the podcast and we had that Sunday off and, and, and Tina said, Hey, why don't we go to church? I said, okay. So we, there's a Presbyterian church right around the corner. It wasn't really what, what we were looking for. And then fast forward a couple of weeks and Tina had found through a friend of hers who had scoped it out, Bridge Church, which is really a Bible church, I would say. Your typical pastor worship team, which I learned is Christian for band. So he plays in the worship team. He's got tattoos and guitar player. And then as I'm working,

because I would watch some of it online as it was streaming. And I'm looking around like, hey, all these guys I'm working with, like Dave and Mo and Texas Slim, like they're all Christians. What's up with me? How come I'm not in on this game? And that's when I am, if you ever listen to my podcast, I'm what people, I call myself a conspiracy therapist. So, you know, there's a lot of different things that I've really, I've gone very deep on a lot of the big things and smaller things. And we just kind of had this whole COVID thing taking place. And I saw a lot of what was wrong there, conspiratorial or not, there was obviously a lot wrong. and my wife and I had started our own podcast called Curry and the Keeper,

which was really for us to talk about wine because there's so many wineries around here. And all this starts happening around episode number seven, of course. And we get an email, I know, right? We get an email from one of our listeners, Sarah Durst, and she says, I'm sending you this book, I think it would be helpful.

And it was Evidence Demands a Verdict. And so, this is exactly the kind of material that I needed to read. Because, you know, proof is proof, but, you know, evidence. I'm like, this is a great title. And when I realized that it's really, in a way, it's also a reference book, and you can go back and forth. And, you know know i almost wanted to do the yarn with the with the pins on the board you know i could i could it all came in view and i'm like within two weeks there's more evidence here that is you know that convinces me of jesus being real god being real prayer being real then you know then i know that you know a lot of things are or aren't true in the world of conspiracies. And that was enough for me.

Now, of course, I dove into other books. A Beautiful Outlaw is another one. I'm just like, oh, man, because my friend Texas Slim, who had come through here as a rancher, he says, man, let me tell you. He says, Jesus was a badass outlaw. I'm like, I like these. This sounds cool to me. And then you find out, you know, Jesus had humor.

And there's a lot of real, that really I connected very, very deeply. And then, you know, now I'm starting to pray. And now I'm seeing miracles happen. So that's a very short version of how I came to Christ and to my faith with my wife. We're both on this at the same time, which apparently is also rather novel for a couple to be on the journey together at the same time. That is amazing. I have so many questions for you. But let me start saying like your 20s or your 40s.

If somebody had said, Adam, who do you think Jesus is? Do you think God is real? How would you have answered that? Well, in hindsight, I think I already, I didn't see it as God or Jesus, but something happened to me in 1990. And I was working for MTV. MTV liked to fire me because I was i definitely would not would not play along and you know and it's like no i'm not going to do this is stupid i want to do it this way

and it was never really a sincere firing but then it was usually like cut your hair i'm like no this is this is my hair i'm going to leave it this way so all these dumb things then one time in 1990 it was real my producer calls had to do this is really it you're done and i had a i think six or seven month old child um i had you know a couple grand in the bank mortgage was due i mean mtv you know it wasn't like you know not like network tv money it was okay but um and and i really i was freaking out for five days i mean i was i didn't want to tell my wife at the time. I was just, I didn't know what to do. I was completely, utterly terrified, eating myself up from the inside.

And then on that fifth or sixth day, the producer calls back, says, well, they couldn't find anyone else to do it. Now they're hiring you back at five times that they were paying. Oh, wow. And at that moment, I said, that's it, universe. Whatever's going on with me in my life, I'm never going to worry about things, A, I don't control, and certainly not about money. And I never have since then. And now, as I read scripture, I'm like, of course. I mean, this all is particularly about worrying about

tomorrow, you know, which has enough to worry for itself. I mean, just even the, you know, give us this day our daily bread. I have nothing to worry about. And I really haven't worried since then. So if someone had caught me at that moment and said, well, this is actually God, I probably would have been possibly open to it if the right person had said that. That's really interesting. That was the question I would ask is, would there have been anything somebody could have said to you when you were younger to make it click? Or is it something in your 50s where you were just ready and open in light of that experience that it made sense now you know Sean there was so much that clicks when when this started to come together so immediately I

thought back to that moment like praise God now I know where that came from also I didn't invent podcasting now I understand why all the hip-hop guys when they win you know the Grammy Award they're like, first thing I do is I want to thank God, my creator, he put the lyrics in my head. And I'm like, yes, yes. Now I understand. So all these things started to come into view for me. Um, and obviously it's just really enriched my life by knowing not just where I come from, who, who has ordered my steps, but also who I'm really doing it for. And I figured out what my job is. I understand what my task is. And if that needs to change tomorrow, then that will be made known to me. But right now I'm on the path and I know what I'm supposed to be doing. And man, it's like

when you're, this happened three, two years ago. So you're 57, 58. And all of a sudden it's like, wow, cool. I got another 60 years to go. I mean, I'm not stopping. I got so much to do still. So when you get this book in the mail, were you like, I hope this is true. I'm just interested. I'm skeptical.

Like, what was your mindset? Were you looking for stuff to like, I just want some evidence that it's true? Or were you like, you're going to have to really convince me if I'm going to buy that some guy 2,000 years ago literally rose from the grave and is God? I approached it with the same openness and seriousness as, you know, I'm a pilot, so I also joined pilots for 911truth.com. And whatever happened, a lot of the evidence that was presented to us is not correct. So, you know, there's all kinds of things, as I said to Joe, it's like, I know that Building 7 didn't fall down out of, you know, sympathy for Building 1 and 2.

There's a lot of things that are just unclear, not open to everyone. So I approach it with the same openness, same with COVID. I mean, when they were telling us that this was going to kill millions of people, I looked at the data. I looked at what was really there, not charts, not graphs, not what Deborah Birx told me. Although in the beginning, of course, I heard it. So I was just looking for empirical evidence. And it's so overwhelming. That's what really struck me. So much more than any other conspiracy I've ever looked into like you know jfk is still you can still look at different actors in that um but this is over well it's oh it was you could change the title overwhelming evidence seriously and and i read it a little bit about you and your father's story and of course that's also some of that's detailed in in in the book and i'm just like i I don't, I mean, I love reading all the other books that I receive. And then of course I start reading the Bible. And then when you read the

Bible and particularly going to church and having a pastor, you know, I mean, it takes a while. It's not like everything opens up right away. It's like, oh, I have it all. But every single day I read something, it's like, oh, it starts to make sense. History is circular. You know, there's so many things that come into view. So it was for anyone who's open to just learning something. I mean, I can't wait to go to Israel. I want to see some of that.

I want to go to some of these places. You know, and I hear people who have been. It's like, wow, you know, like this is really where a lot of this took place. It's historical. I mean, that's, it's just no fighting that. I've been to Israel four times and I went 2019, obviously before COVID. And we got on our bus in Tel Aviv and I'll never forget two words that our Jewish kind of tour guide for the trip said. He said, welcome home. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. That's very cool. The only other place that would ring true is like Scotland or Ireland because I'm Scottish and Irish and I was like, that's incredible. So if you get a chance, you got to do it.

Oh, totally. Back to, so Evidence Demands Verse, people read that book very differently. Technically, it's a reference guide. I'm amazed how many people have picked it up and read it straight through. Other people just go to certain chapters and kind of pick and choose stuff that's interesting. I'm curious what that process was like for you in terms of reading it, but also like your thought process, like when are lights going on and how are things changing as you're engaging that? Excuse me. I just started reading

it from page one. Now there's a lot of references in the back of the book. I mean, that's how much of the book is reference material or footnotes or what would you call it? I mean, there's a lot, there's a lot of different points. So I would, I would actually look some other things up. So it kind of became, I mean, I don't know if it's a book that, that you read cover to cover. I read it and then I'm like, oh, let me check this out. And so I did start jumping around and going back and forth. So to me, and it's still on my nightstand. I still pick it up from time to time. And just let me just get a little refresher on this.

You know, it's almost like the study Bible without the Bible part. You know, there's so many. I love maps. I love, you know, I love the historical context. But then all the scientific proofs that have been, geological discoveries, all of that stuff. To me, it was just exactly that. It's like the title is spot on. Like, you're convincing me with every single bit of this. and now then to get into faith believing in jesus believing in god living by faith and not by sight that's that's a leap that you take or you don't take and for me that was it was i think made very

easy uh by my wife um we also through our church we did did, uh, very early on, we did a, um, uh, a course, um, with, with, I think, eight other couples, uh, called, you know, Christian, Christian, a Christ-centered marriage. And these are, these are like lawyers and, you know, all kinds of interesting people, all from different walks of life. And that really changed so much. We have a good marriage, but just putting Christ in the middle of everything changed a lot for us. So, I mean, that's a leap that I don't know if once you believe what's written on the paper,

and you can say, yes, Jesus existed. And this is the evidence that God existed or exists. You still have to make that leap. And for me, that was just praying and praying for things, usually intercession, praying for someone else. And then when healing takes place and true miracles taking place that didn't necessarily affect my life per se directly, that just sealed the deal for me. I'm like, I'm in. I'm in. Someone said to me, hey, please pray for me. I stop. I pray. All right. I go back. I can't pray enough during the day. That's awesome. Now, it sounds like it was just a journey where you were pretty quickly kind of convinced it was making sense.

But like you said, there's a difference between saying, okay, I believe Jesus is God. I think I can trust the Bible. But not only is there evil out there, like you pointed towards in the Naomi Wolf example, like evil is real, but evil is in my own heart. Like that's what Jesus said. Was there kind of part of the process for you where like, holy cow, if these are really the words of Jesus, he's talking to me, that means I've got to repent and admit my own sins. Like, was there that level? And what was that like where it hit you from just your mind to your heart? The repentance, well, first confessing sins came a little bit later for me when I'm like,

oh, wow, I really did all that stuff? That stuff that, you know, I mean, when you really think back on your life and when you're really like, whoa, I did some pretty sinful things in my day. the first things that that i that really started to affect me was uh from james um be quick to listen slow to speak even slower to get angered uh using um ephesians six i mean the the whole armor of god also in five the uh you, we're not battling flesh and blood. And I think this is probably one of the first things like, wow, this is the dark powers, the cosmic powers, the war that's going on in the spiritual realm. Like, yeah, that's what I see. You know, right now, it's always something, right? It's the socialist, communist, globalist, Zionist. Oh, there's a lot of that now.

It's all the Zionists doing everything. No, no, no. It's evil. I think that we probably, as a nation, but as a world in a way, we withdrew a little bit from God. I mean, I saw this happening with churches emptying out. Even during COVID, churches being burned to the ground, important ones, big ones in hall everywhere, France, everywhere. And I think that when you have that retreat, it creates a vacuum and creates room for evil to come in. And so that and also because I speak for a living, so the power of the tongue, you know, where it can be like a rudder of a ship. It can be like a spark that ignites an entire, you know, an entire wildfire. Yet it is so powerful. It can be used like a bit in a horse's mouth. And so I always pray that I am able to use my tongue as a rudder of destiny

and help steer people to good things. But it's a very, very dangerous piece of the anatomy. So this is where it really started to connect for me with scripture, et cetera. And yeah, does that answer the question? Yeah, yeah, that totally does. I heard you mention that again in your interview with Joe, just because I think you've been on his show four or five times, you know, like I was kind of cutting you off and I wasn't listening and I want to listen better. You refer to James.

I'm like, some people might think that's small, but I picked up on somebody who talks for a living and I communicate for a living is like, God's changing my heart and I want to be a better listener. I want to understand. That's a really significant thing that I saw. So I appreciate you sharing that. I'm curious, you've talked about prayer a few times here. You did in some of the other interviews I've listened to. Did you pray before? Like, what prompted you to pray? And what are some ways that just really helped you realize why there is power in prayer? I really didn't know how to pray. And I'm trying to think, maybe it's somewhere I read, and it might even be in your book, but somewhere it was start by saying, Lord Jesus, was it Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me for I'm a sinner.

And I think that may even be from Alcoholics Anonymous where you do that 12 times in a row. And I would just do that. And so I'd be walking the dog in the morning. We live in a very quiet area, so I don't see anybody, just me and the dog and nature and the sun coming up. And I did that continuously, continuously, every single day, four times three, three times four, 12. I would count it in my head. And then I slowly started to speak to God. And what came to my mind was Stevie Wonder's song, Go Have a Talk with God.

I don't know if you know the song. It's from Songs in the Key of Life. And if you feel your life's too hard, just go have a talk with God. It was a great song. And as a kid, I played it on the radio. And that came up in my mind. I'm like, this is what they're talking about. This is what the song is about.

Stevie's a musical genius. Stevie knows what I need. If something's going on, just go have a talk with God. And I would find myself speaking out loud. And then sometimes an answer would come in my own words, what I had to do or where I had to go. So that was quite amazing. I'm like, is that me? Where's that coming from? At the same time, we have our church experience. And our pastor, Pastor Jimmy, is talking about fill up your leaky buckets and go out there and just leak all this goodness everywhere. And so I started by saying, good morning, Holy Spirit. Fill up my buckets, Holy Spirit. And so just had this metaphor worked really well.

Then actually a friend of mine's son got leukemia and boom, and he's a young kid and he's a Christian. And we've actually never met. We only know each other from online podcast related. And he says, I'm distraught. I don't know what to do. And I said, well, I'm just going to pray. I'm going to pray every single day. And guess what? His son got better. I was like, what? What is going on? And really, I learned to pray to lift people up more than anything. I mean, it's one thing to say, Lord, please heal him. But I wanted the Lord to lift people up more than anything. I mean, it's one thing to say, Lord, please heal him. But I wanted the Lord to lift up his father and keep him strong for his kid.

And when I started doing that, that's when I really saw results starting to come in. A friend of mine in Spain who I grew up with, he... And when I was like eight years old, yeah, eight or nine years old, he lived next door and he was dying. I mean, he basically was alcoholic, drinking himself to death. And I, and I went to go see him in Spain last summer and he's on death's door.

I mean, he looked literally like some people I knew who are dying of AIDS in the 80s and 90s. I mean, he would bump his wrist and would start bleeding and like, oh, and he grew up Catholic. And so my wife was with me. We prayed at our first lunch, but then I went back two more times, prayed with him two more times. And then he started praying on his own, recovered, went into rehab and he's flourishing. His health has come back. And he was, I didn't expect him to live two weeks past me leaving Spain. So that's that, those things, like, big time. That kind of, that power, where does that come from? Never seen anything like it before. That's amazing. I love that.

But it makes sense if you're a new Christian. Like, I don't even know what this pray thing is and how do I do it and what does it look like? And you just jumped in and prayed a humble prayer. Tell me a little bit about your decision to share your faith. As far as I could tell,, sharing on the Joe Rogan podcast was the first time. Am I correct? That was kind of the first time you publicly shared? Yes. So this no coincidence is in the kingdom. This all started to come together. Joe says, hey, come on the show. I'm like, okay. I'm like the Regis Philbin for Joe because I live pretty close by. I'm an hour away.

So if someone can't come, call me, Joe. I'll show up. That's why I've been on five times. Like, yeah, you're cool. Come on by. So he'll call me. Can you come tomorrow? Can you come Friday?

Yeah, whatever. I'm good. Of course. I'll cancel anything. I'm coming. And Tina, my wife, says, are you going to talk to Joe about your place? Oh, yeah. I. I'm coming. And Tina, my wife, says, I think I talked to Joe about your place. Oh, yeah, I think I have to.

I really am, you know, Holy Spirit's strong on this one. I definitely have to bring this up. And I had just no doubt about it. She was concerned. She's like, you know, how do you think people take this? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. But it's when I go on, when I'm on Joe's show, we just talk honestly about whatever's going on, whatever's happening.

So I'll have to do it. And, you know, and so I did. And I told him, you know, a similar story, basically, you know, it's still my basic testimony. And as I expected, Joe treated me with respect. And, you know, of course, at a certain point, he's asking me things like, Joe, I'm new. I don't have the answers to everything. I really don't know. I don't have all the answers. So, but what has been interesting since then, and of course, there's a lot of people praying for Joe Rogan. As I found out after that, people emailed me, hundreds, hundreds, been praying for you for 10 years. Welcome to the kingdom, brother. Just all this. In fact, there's a little more criticism now

from time to time, because I'm a public figure but sure at the time there was really maybe three people who who had something critical to say and it was christians who said you did it wrong you said it wrong oh god pretty much everything else was just positive and warm and welcoming you know there's all there's always all kinds of i'm used to weird comments from time to time that's okay um but in general it has only been i mean just like i get a call from rudy sarzo he's the bassist for he was bassist for white snake for ozzy osbourne uh ronnie james dio is on the road now with quiet ride he's my my age. He's a little older than I am, you know, older guy, but he's still, he's still rock bass player. Everybody knows him. He's like, brother, I can't believe it. Welcome to the kingdom. Wow. Rudy, you? Rudy, you? Really?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, so all these people who just never, and i and what i realized sean is that um by me being bold um because that's what it was considered you know oh wow he did that um i felt i mean there was no doubt for me but it has made a lot more people um feel like they can speak up and you know i think that was part of what god used me for and wanted me to do, is to say, hey, if that guy can do it, then I can do it. Or I can say, yeah, I'm a Christian, and here's what I believe in. Or I believe in God. Or I believe, you know, fill in the blank, whatever it is you want to communicate. And I think that's part of why all this has happened to me. Well, I think it's amazing.

And that's really cool you heard from him. I imagine there's some others that have surprised you as well. I'm curious, as kind of an outsider coming to faith, I've been in the church pretty much my whole life, as you can imagine, with what my dad did on crew staff. And so certain things that outsiders might think are weird in the church, I'm just used to it. Now that you're reading the Bible, you've publicly called yourself Christian, you're going to church. What are certain things in the Christian environment you're like, I did not see that coming. I did not expect that. That just took me by surprise. Um, a couple of, well, there's a couple of things that, that, all right. So first of all, prayer before dinner, prayer before big events, praying for each other in the community when someone is going through something.

Wow. I feel like I was robbed of so much goodness and togetherness with people by not being part of a church community. And I'm talking to people here in Fredericksburg, these ex-military, ex-police, international arms dealers, lawyers, cowboys, you name it. But we're all Christians and we're all together. We're all in our community. And it is a little bit like, you know, Star Hollow, Little House on the Prairie, you know, it does kind of have that vibe to it. But it would be people who I could have a conversation with in any other moment of my life and not have known they were Christian and would not have been like, oh, these are crazy people at all, at all, at all.

But how we can all come together is phenomenal. So I'm always surprised when, for instance, sometimes there'll be an interview and someone will say, hey, or even just a conference call. Do you mind if I just pray for us for a moment? Oh, yeah, absolutely. And it really sets things up beautifully. I've somehow become designated prayer guy at some of our friends' dinners. I'm like, wow, this is so cool. But then for myself, stuff I never would have expected. If anyone's ever been to kind of a Bible church, maybe even partially charismatic church, when the worship team band, or the band is playing, and by the way, these days, these are hit songs. I mean, we even went to Lauren Daigle in concert. There's 15,000 people in Austin.

It's like, this is big. This is not just some kooky little station off, like K-Love that plays this stuff. No, this is real big stuff. They're top hits. And of course, I've been in the music business all my life like okay this is good stuff actually and love that they have lyrics on the screen i think every single band should have the lyrics on a screen behind them it adds to it everyone's used to captions it's not silly it's very i don't care

what you're singing uh lyrics on the screen is a idea. But when I feel all of a sudden my hand going up, I'm like, this is the stuff I always felt was weird. Even in the beginning when I first went to church and people are worshiping and they've got one hand up, two hands up, and they're worshiping. And that now has happened to me. That's something I didn't expect. Always looked weird. And now I totally get me. That's something I didn't expect. Always looked weird. And now I totally get it.

I understand it. And then you go to a concert. We literally sat with almost 15,000 people watching a 33-year-old, could have been my daughter, singing a hit song, a number one song about God and people just worshiping. And I've been to a lot of concerts, man. I've been to big, big concerts, and I never felt this comfortable. Because otherwise, like, oh, where's the mosh pit?

Who's drunk? Who's going to be fighting? I'm always aware. Who's the nut job in the crowd? No, none of that. So these things are just so surprising, wonderful, enriching. I would really say that what we need so much more of right now, which would heal so much mental health, is church community. Amen. The community of a church, you know, it doesn't matter even what church, temple, whatever you want to go to,

just do something. It really does enrich your life. And I think it would save a lot of people from having to, you know, go to SSRIs and other antidepressants and stuff that I just don't believe works. Tell me a little bit more about your wife. I think it's awesome that she's the one that encouraged you to share your faith on that podcast. And she also described that the two of you kind of at the same time are having this faith journey. So you obviously had been married before this. Did she come from a non-religious background?

Was she an atheist? Tell me a little bit more about that dynamic. I'm glad you asked. So we're the same age, give or take a year. Was she an atheist? Tell me a little bit more about that dynamic. I'm glad you asked. So we're the same age, give or take a year. And she grew up in Indiana. So she's a Midwest girl. She actually moved, I would say escaped when she was 18 or 19 and moved to Chicago.

She was in Northwest Indiana. Grew up Catholic, but Catholic in the way that her parents would say, oh, time to get up, go to church, and they wouldn't go. And it was funny because part of this journey, a good friend of mine from 35 years ago back in the South Jersey music days, he lives in Dallas, and his daughter was getting married, and he invited us to the wedding catholics they're catholics and and so we went to the church and then you know as we're sitting there all of a sudden there's like this callback stuff and tina's doing it i'm like you

know you you know this vibe but the stuff you're supposed to say you know like the callback huh and she says yeah it's like automatic um but she would say, like some friends of mine would say, a lapsed Catholic. She said she really got nothing out of it at all. But she was, I think that in her previous relationships, there was unhappiness and she would have to speak for herself. But she tried all the things, the singing bowls, the Reiki, you know, you, you name it. And none of that really worked. And so once she started going to church and I was watching online, um, and she'd come home and we'd be so enthusiastic and she would just be, I mean, she, she got baptized before me. That all kind of came quicker to her, I think, because she was in that

community. And so I actually changed my whole schedule. I get up very early on Sunday. I still have to do my show. I get up early so I can still go to one of the services. And we were watching The Chosen, of course, as you do as good Christians do. And it's the scene where Jesus meets Nicodemus. And that night I'm like, I'm ready. I'm ready to get baptized.

I'm, this is, I'm, let's, I'm good to go. Let's do this. I feel it now. And so, so she, and you know, she, she actually, we met at Ronald McDonald House Charities. She was a chief communications officer. She's been communications, uh, C-suite level all her life for nonprofits. Um, and I was hosting an event for them. So that's how we met. Um, and, uh, so she's, uh, even though she's retired from

corporate life, she's very active, um, in the community, definitely, uh, around church activities. And it's like, wow, we're, we're Mr. and Mrs. Americana now. I can't believe it. I remember growing up and seeing people like this and thinking, they're kind of odd, but they seem really happy. It seems like they've kind of got everything together. I just think there's a stigma that's grown over faith.

And I hope that I can break some of that, because, you know, we've been taught to, you know, just, you know, try not to be too weird, you know, try to kind of be normal, be quiet, be a part, get along, go along, all this stuff, and so it's, that's not who I am at all, you know, this don't only make sense that I'm here. In some ways, you may have answered this, but how has becoming a Christian just changed you? Your attitude, your approach to just your life, your relationships, how's it changed you? Well, of course, I'm always trying to be better. You know, can I ever be like Jesus? No, but I can try every single day.

I can get up again and try to be that way. Um, it, uh, so it changes the way I approach people. It changes the way I talk about people when they're not there or not talk about them. Uh, if I'm in a very, like, if you if you're at the airport, Tina and I both do this. And we look at each other and say, these are all children of God. I don't get frustrated. Like, you know, we had kind of a bad parking experience going to that Lauren Daigle concert. And I'm like, he's got this.

We're going to get there. It's going to be fine. You know, whatever's meant to be, it's going to that Lauren Daigle concert. And I'm like, he's got this. We're going to get there. It's going to be fine. Whatever's meant to be, it's going to happen perfectly fine. Definitely after I got baptized, I really felt like I put on a new man, a new jacket. There's a new me and I do approach everybody, everything with love, with patience, with kindness, compassion. I try to stay away from empathy. I think that's a problem sometimes, being empathetic to things that may not be even really godly, but compassionate for sure. Yeah, I mean, you know, but still approach everything and everyone with love, no matter what they do. So I grew up in a very, very liberal country.

You know, the LGBT, although it was, ever since the immigration has changed everything all over Europe. So if you're gay, you can't walk hand in hand on the street anymore in Amsterdam because you might get beat up by someone from a different faith who does not believe in that at all. I mean, it's gotten really, really bad, but I grew up completely and that has not changed. I still love everybody no matter what they do or who they love. But I am all in on all of the word, God's word. So, you know, what is sinful is sinful.

You're just not going to change my mind on it, but I'm still going to love you. You know, that changes nothing. In fact, long before when I saw like the, what's that Southern Baptist church that would go outside and protest with, you know, signs that say God God hates fags. I would always Westboro Baptist. Westboro Baptist. Yeah. I would always say, why are you doing that? Aren't you, this is long ago.

Shouldn't you just be praying for those people? I mean, what, you know, why are you getting in their face like that? That doesn't seem very, very God-like to me. And that's how I still am. It's like, you know, I'll pray for people and like, hopefully they won't sin, but that doesn't change my love for anybody. What like advice or thoughts would you give to Christians? Because I think you have a unique perspective where you've worked just your life and your relationships that you're like, Christians, we could do this a lot better

to reach people outside of the Christian world. This would serve us to be more effective. What would you say? Wow. That's a tough one, because I'm still kind of learning what I think is effective, even in my own work. It's like none of the people that I was around, even though I knew they were Christians, all a little bit younger than me, 30, 40 years old, none of them ever pushed anything on me. Never, ever, ever. And they all have said, that doesn't really work that well. I've figured that out. But if I ever had a question, they would immediately take the time to answer. Wouldn't be preachy.

You know, I would have questions like, so that revelation thing, you really think that's how it's going down, man? All this fire and brimstone and all? That would be my words. And, you know, and then they would patiently explain that. I think the boldest thing you can do as a Christian, which I have never received any pushback at all, is just a wonderful thing, is if you're with people and you're dining,

just say, do you mind if I just pray over us, just pray over this food? I found that works in every single, my, I went to Rotterdam, my daughter still lives there. And, or she moved there. She lives there now. And she had about, she was turning 33 and magic number. And she had 15 friends. And I said, I'll take you all out to dinner. She said, oh, great. That's great. I was only over there for a week. And there's outside. There's a restaurant outside.

And then I said to her before the food was coming, I said, you know, I'd like to pray. And she said, oh, Dad, it's cool. I already told everybody. My dad's a Jesus freak. Which is what I call myself. Instead of saying, I'm a Christian, like, I'm a Jesus freak, So, which I, this is what I call myself is instead of saying, I'm a Christian, like I'm a Jesus freak, man, I'm all in. And, and so these are all, you know, all different kinds. You can imagine what, what your typical Dutch, uh, young person is like these days,

all different walks of life. I said, can you mind, I just want to pray for all, for all of you. And man, they were praying, they were amens. I mean, it was amazing how open they were to it. So that to me is like a thing that you can do. And then if someone asks you about it, hey, do you really believe in prayer? Then you can open a conversation. We still have to go out and disciple to all the nations. That's still part of the commission. But I find that to be, it can be lunch, you know, dinner, breakfast, whatever. I find that to be such an easy way to signal without virtue signaling, basically. Like, hey, this is what I do. Do you mind? And pray over us and the food. No one will say no. No one's going to go, oh, I'm shocked. No, that doesn't happen. The worst that can happen is someone says, hey, tell me, why do you do that?

Or what's going on with that? Do you believe in that? And then there's an opening to talk about if someone wants to. That's my experience as something that I want to do anyway. And I don't really need permission, but it's nice to ask. And people always seem to enjoy that. That's a great non-threatening way to just live out your faith naturally without pushing on people. I love that. Now you've had a pretty remarkable career on so many levels,

obviously still have enthusiasm and excitement for years to come. Does being a Christian change the way you think about your career? Is it like, I want to still accomplish the same things, but just love people through it? Or is it like, now there's new project and new ideas I'm thinking about doing because I'm a Christian. How does it just make you think about your career professionally being a follower of Jesus? Well, I think that I have no idea. I can't say, hey, here's what I'm going to be doing next year. Here's where I'm going tomorrow, because I know that's not up to me. I know that that is ordered by something, by someone else. This I understand now. So every morning I pray and I say, Lord, am I on the, am I on the

right path? Keep me on the center line, yank the chain if I'm going off in the wrong direction. And, you know, I'll talk about, I'll, in my talk with God, I'll, I'll talk about what I'm doing, how I'm feeling about it. And sometimes something will come back to me it's not like i hear it in my head sometimes i'll say it sometimes just if i feel it um and i was like oh okay i'll and i'll have a look at that like right now for for me it's like we're in his season of reveal says help me help me reveal all the things all the evil that is starting to come to light start let's start uncovering that that's what i'm doing um But with podcasting, we've created a group of over 100 open source developers.

We've created entirely new monetization systems. We have everything's centralizing. So we're moving away. So people, it's important to know when Dave and I, Dave, Wayne and I first invented podcast, we actually had it running three years before that.

But the first podcast, it wasn't even called a podcast. You know who the first people were who showed up and said, I want to do this? Godcasters. They're the first one who came. I call them Godcasters now. And they said, wow, we have to buy satellite time. And now we can get onto the iPod? Are you kidding me? How do I do it?

And of course, I'm like, hey, I'll take anybody. These guys are great. And so they're still, there's Steve Webb. And I call him the OG Godcaster. He's been podcasting for 20 years. And he's still doing podcasts. Focus on the family. I mean, this is huge operation.

You know, I talk to these guys regularly about, you know, with new features and stuff like that. They understand the power of this. I did a, this was actually just an example of how I have no idea what comes to me, but I never go to conferences because I find them annoying. I don't find them beneficial. You know, it's like, it's a lot of schmoozing and especially not podcasting conferences. But I was asked to go to the Spark Media Conference, which was in essence, a Godcaster conference. I'm like, yeah, sure. So can I bring my pastor and his wife?

Yeah. Okay. So we all go. It's in Houston. And I'm like, yeah, sure. Say, can I bring my pastor and his wife? Yeah. Okay. So we all go, it's in Houston and I'm supposed to do a keynote. And I, and I, I had some thinking, but at literally at two o'clock in the morning, I wake up, it's like alert, alert, download from heaven incoming. I'm like, whoa. Okay. So I start writing it down. And what I, what I heard was protect them. And, and this has been my mission already, but also to communicate it, because you can get kicked off of YouTube. You can get kicked off of Spotify, off of Apple, et cetera. But now we have 65 apps and services that you can't get kicked off of.

You know, we've built this entire infrastructure, no matter what message you have, no matter what way you want to communicate through your God-given right. You know, I love people who think it's something the government gave us. So to ensure that, to make sure that that continues, that's part of the mission that I have. So, and, and communicating that and, and helping people to not fall into, you know, traps that contain algorithms and, and all these, you know what, you know, algorithms, algos, algos, we say algos, A-L-G-O-S, algos, Greek word, pain and suffering. If you look up the definition of algos. Yeah, exactly. I know, right? That came to me too. I'm looking up algos at two in the morning.

Like, wow, pain and suffering. That's going in the speech. There you go. So this is the kind of stuff that I'm doing now. And, you know, it may change. I don't know what's going to happen. So I just wait. I listen. I have ears to hear.

I love that. That's a service that'll help not just Christians, but really anybody who has a message they want to get out that could get canceled, but certainly help Christians. So that's a kind of ministry, I think, loving your neighbors. So you're obviously a thoughtful guy. You ask a lot of questions. You've come to faith. You're convinced it's true. Now that you're about two years into your faith or so, like what questions do you still have? Are you still plagued by questions or is it like,

this makes sense, moving on. I just want to understand what it means to live this out. Oh, I have questions every day. i'm very fortunate because i connected really well with our pastor um you know he and his wife came over to dinner at a certain point and tina and i are kind of nervous like i was the pastor and his wife and and i say to him man because i was i wasn't in the church yet i was watching i said man i really love your show today and he cracks up he says you're so right it really is like a show show, isn't it? So it's kind of like a podcast. You know, you got a format, you do three songs, you do a little communion, you do another song. I see what you're doing. So I can come to him with questions, but iron sharpens iron

in that relationship. I mean, it's really, it's gone back and forth in a very nice way. So, oh, man, I have questions every single day, of course. Like, especially now, like, hey, hey, Jimmy, Pastor Jimmy, I hear a lot of people, Ezekiel, you know, it's coming, here it is, end times, got the big bear, got the king of the north, king of the south. Is it here? You know, and then, well, maybe look at Matthew 24 and we can calm down a little bit, but maybe not.

Always be ready. You know, all of these things is great because the minute it's known that you're a Christian, especially in the public realm, I mean, how many times people have told me, no, no, this is the wrong translation. This Bible is no good. You know, you're praying to Zeus. Like, okay, so I get all of these things that come into play that really can confuse someone, particularly if you're a new Christian. It's great to have someone to minister you through that. And Tina and I are very, very, very fortunate to have Pastor Jimmy and his wife Annette in our life to be able to discuss that. Because, I mean, he, he literally went to school for it. You know, he has all the degrees. He understands the, the, the etymology

of the words. And that's my kind of, that's my kind of expert, you know, that, that's, that's, that's what I need. And so that, that's been very, we've been graced with that. What are some of your early friends who knew you back to like high school and college when they find out you're Christian? Are they like, you know what? We've seen this trajectory in your life and we're not surprised. Are they like, what the heck? I had no idea you'd become a Christian at this stage.

Like what's some of the response of people that have just known you for a lot of your life? Well, the most important to me was my daughter's response of course when when i told her this uh right at the beginning she's like oh man don't tell me here and her and her i and her mother divorced obviously we've been we've been divorced for you know uh 15 years um And the first thing she said was, am I going to lose you and be like some God freak? I said, no, I am. So it was a little apprehensive. She wasn't. I sat her down. I explained how I approached it, what had happened, how I came to Jesus, et cetera. She was like, okay, I know she was kind of apprehensive now i uh this was when we were in

new york at a family function she went back to the netherlands we went back to texas then she came later to visit and bro she's like praying at the table she's like asking for prayers um she's starting to to practice some prayer herself she has a way way to go, and I'm just letting it flow. Amazing. My stepdaughters, they're all in their late 20s, will say, hey, will you guys pray for me for this? So we're so grateful for these little sprouts of, you know, like the seeds have been planted.

So that was kind of, that's a very important one to me, obviously. I'm still very, I'm very good terms with my first boss when I was 19 and started in television in the Netherlands. He's in his 70s now. Had dinner with him a year ago, a little bit over a year ago in the Netherlands. And I said, do you mind if we want to pray before dinner? He says, no, no, no. We pray, and then he looks at me and he says, you know, I can expect anything from you.

Fantastic. It's nothing from me, he says, but I love it. It's so typical of you. I'm loving that you're in you're into that you know so it's always these these funny little responses no no one uh no one has really responded weirdly or you know look if you look on social media you're gonna find someone who's gonna tell me what's gonna be saying hey, that curry over there, he thinks his sky daddy is going to fix everything. All right. Extra prayers going on for that person because clearly they're hurt.

They need some love. They need some forgiveness right away. But that just happens. Yeah. That's a part of the world in which we live. That's for sure. I got a ton of questions for you. One I didn't prep you with, but I'm curious. You read through evidence, you know, a little about my

story. Do you have any questions for me? And if you don't, that's fine. We could follow up and have a whole nother conversation some other time. But anything you're like, I was just interested in asking them this, whatever it may be. Well, there is one question. yes. I want to know exactly, did you and your father work on the book at the same time? Because are you my age? And I'm 59. You must be a little younger. I am soon 48. Oh, okay. Yeah, a little younger. So how young were you and how did that collaboration work? That's what's always kind of puzzled me is like, okay, how did that all fit together? So we've written, I don't know, maybe six or eight different books together. And a lot of them have been very different. This book, he first wrote, I think he published it in 1972, typed it all out himself.

And at that point, you can find the original copies sometimes people still have them and bring them to events that i'm at because at that stage nobody was doing apologetics i mean there really was none published like this and no publisher wanted it adam they're like this is not going to sell i mean they had no idea it went gangbusters, but he did it himself. And then as he started to do the updates later, he started to bring more of a team around him. So this might be other scholars, this would be other students. And so the 99 version, it was kind of this big, thick gold cover. I actually wrote one chapter for him, but he had a whole team by another scholar named Norm Geisler and

students. I think it was a Southern evangelical seminary at the time. So for this one, because it was 2017, I graduated in 2014 with my PhD. I was working at Biola as a professor. He's like, son, I trust you to take the lead with this. And so I got about three dozen graduate students from our program at Biola. I had about 10 or 12 leading scholars, some in the world that we cite in the book to review chapters. And I just kept going back to him saying, here's what we're thinking. Give me guidance. Is this what you're looking for? And so he really kind of guided the project, but I just sat down and kind of knocked this thing out over two years with the help of, I guess, about 40 or 50 people. So it's a given.

It had to be quite a team. Yeah. It really, it had to be. And some of those areas like the resurrection, I teach a class on that. So I know that better. Some of the Old Testament stuff, like on the historicity of Isaiah, that is not my lane. So I'm going to need some scholars to weigh in and help on some of those chapters. So that was really the way it was put together.

I have two more questions. Sure. The other one is, because you've written several books, your dad's written a lot of books, for someone who has read Evidence, what would you recommend of your work would be the next one to read? Well, in some ways it depends upon what you want to read in, like what your level of interest is. So if it was in the resurrection, I've written an academic book, I'm actually updating right now specifically on the deaths of the apostles. That was one chapter in the book, and the chapter in the book was probably 10 or 12 pages. I've got a 300, probably 350-page book where I go into depth on that single chapter

and expand it. Probably wait for that update if that interests you. If that topic of the Apostles doesn't, then don't read it. But that, you know, you've got to be interested to read that level of an academic book. I'm not even sure I would say you should necessarily read one of our books next. If you're looking for a book, so let me frame it this way. If you wanted, my dad wrote another book called More Than a Carpenter, which was basically if you could take evidence demands verdict and someone could read it in two hours with his story. It's a quick practical book to give to somebody who doesn't want to read a 700 page book like Evidence. So that's a handy, easy book to have. Okay, more than a carpenter. I give that to people all the time. But if you're like, I want to

read stuff more scholarly because Evidence Demands Verdict is a research book, but we're popularizing it for people. We quote a ton of different scholars. What you or others would want to do who say, I want to go deeper on this, would be say to get a book like, I mean, I've got a couple of books on the resurrection. These are seven, 800 page books just on the resurrection where people are going into depth and responding to challenges against it. Every single one of those chapters, there are thick books behind it that scholars have written. So in some ways, you could just email me and say, you know, here's, I want more on the reliability of the Bible. I want more

in the historicity of the Exodus. Whatever that lane is, you know, I could suggest some of those people. But does that answer your question? You know, it does. I appreciate that. But my takeaway is more than a carpenter. That's going to be my next book because that just struck me. And that book, oh, sorry, that's fine. Before you get to the second one, we actually are updating that too.

It comes out in the fall because the last version was 2009. And that update, we even trimmed it down i feel i mean that book i think we just nailed and i'm super excited for that to come out but i wish i had a copy right here easy quick book read share study in a group that's like the cliff notes of the big book that you went through since you're in the apologetics business. This is one way to frame it. Is it really, I mean, yes, believing the, of course, the resurrection is very key. Is that really the biggest controversy? Is that really the biggest one? Is that why there's so much written about the resurrection specifically? Is that what all the, I'll just call them the naysayers, is that really what it

comes down to every single time? Well, Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15, if Jesus is not risen, our faith is in vain. Right. He writes in Romans chapter 1, Jesus is resurrected confirming that he is the Son of God. Jesus is asked to do a miracle, and he did quite a few miracles, but he pointed towards the resurrection, the sign of Jonah as the ultimate miracle. So it really is the linchpin that proves the identity of Jesus. So I say to people, I go, I don't buy a lot of naturalistic evolutionary stories. I think there's great evidence for intelligent design.

I say there's people – but if evolution happened in some fashion and Jesus rose from the grave, Christianity is true. I mean let's start there. It's good. Right? I mean if there's – people raise contradictions in the Bible, and I think there's good plausible explanations for these. But even if there were a contradiction in the Bible, that would raise important questions about the inerrancy of Scripture, etc. But if Jesus rose from the grave, Christianity is true. So I think it shows that God is real.

There's life after death. It shows that Jesus is God. So there's a reason critics will go after that, because that's the heart of the faith. And there's a reason why many Christians have advanced, really, since the time of Jesus, a case that is true. Because before I was a follower of Jesus, my questions would not be about that at all. I think people who are questioning that, they really have read a lot they already know they're just like oh i got this one because i was like dude jesus christ superstar walk on water changed my you know changed my water into wine

what moses did what you know that kind of stuff so all right last question yeah when you visualize jesus what do you who do you see? And I'll start by telling, and of course, I think this is a lot of people of mine right now, I can't help but seeing Jonathan Rumi to a degree. Well, that's a fair question. It's hard to separate Jonathan Rumi and Jim Caviezel from the passion in my mind. But still, for me, it's not Caviezel, it's Rumi and Jim Caviezel from The Passion in my mind. But still for me, it's not Caviezel, it's Rumi. Yeah.

You know, what's so interesting about that is it's one thing to play a character and the whole movie's about your death and you only can connect to the character so much in two hours. But whatever season they crucify Jesus in, and I have no intel, four, five, six, you have people raised on this character and this version of Jesus. I think it's going to shock a lot of people in a way that's going to re-envision for them what the crucifixion was like, because like you said, people are so committed to that character. I can't wait to see how that plays out. Even with, I think, a lot of Christians and

non-Christians who still enjoy the show, there's an emotional commitment to him. You crucify that guy. That's a very, very different experience. Yes. So my question again was, if you visualize Jesus as a person in that way, who do you see? Oh, gosh. Is it anyone or is it just vague? That's such an interesting question because sometimes I can see the images of Jonathan and Jim coming to my mind. I try not to focus too much on a particular human person because I know they're acting like i get that and i just try to imagine what he was like void of a certain human being walking today but i still those will be in the back of my mind at my time at times when i when i read the gospels yeah because that that's what i like so much about uh beautiful outlaw um is uh when that when jesus's humorous buddy buddy side is highlighted and and the book goes

into some very detail about you know we've all grown up as a child like oh velvet and beautiful halo and everything it's like that that was a big part of, of, uh, of my coming to Jesus was when Texas slim said, and he's a badass outlaw. Look what he did. And then reading beautiful outlaw that really,

that, that gave me a whole different perspective on how to look at him. And then I have to say, I think it's helpful that Jonathan Rumi is kind of a cool dude in the series. Actually, I watched late. I'd never seen Passion of the Christ. And watching that, I'm like, oh, oh, wow. I don't even know if I could have watched that movie before.

Clearly, hundreds of millions of people did. There was never of interest to me. And just, hmm, it really, really brought a lot home. Totally different looking guy, but still. Well, I think Dallas has nailed it. Dallas Jenkins with Jonathan. I mean, he really matches when I would think about Jesus, just there's a kindness, there's a confidence, there's a firmness, there's a charisma there. Of firmness there's a charisma there uh of course he's middle eastern like there's so many things that they capture about his character that is really just compelling that they they they casted him wonderfully so agree yeah looking forward to this new season

coming out yeah me too me too well we usually my family we usually like to go to the to the theater we just couldn't this time around. We like to support the Christian cinema. But we didn't make it, so now we're ready. We got viewing parties set up. We're ready to watch it on some big screens. Hey, I got one last question for you. Sure.

So probably, obviously this Christian culture is unique to you, but the music, you made some comments on that. Is there any particular worship song or one you've heard that just like ministers to you because the message or the quality you're like that's that's a beautiful song uh i wish i had tina here because i don't she knows everything by title, by performer, et cetera. Honestly, I'm not going to sing them for you, but there's a couple. Holy, holy, holy is the crown upon the lamb. I don't know.

I can't think of it right now. Tina is so good at that. That's totally fine. I will say that I found out when I came out, so to speak, I got an email from Michael, the guitar

player for Mercy Me. I only knew one song from, you know, which I can only believe, which was a monstrous hit. And he says, dude, this is so cool. We've been listening to your show for 10 years. The whole band listens to it.

We're going to be in San Antonio. You got to come. And that was my first, you know, it was actually a smaller venue, even for them, like two and a half thousand. And that blew my mind that was my first christian um concert you know and then and the word rock almost came out because it you know it's it's like it's like country kind of it's not it's not cheesy stuff it's these are good this is good stuff and good songs. But the vibe in the audience, that was really the first time like, whoa, what is going on here? I've never felt like this before. I've never.

I mean, concerts, I was always backstage, under the stage, side of the stage. I was never in the audience. No, no, no, no. I got credentials, VIP. But now I'm in the audience like whoa this is great this is really just really really good vibe um so that that just got me started because i've i've i mean i've played and i've listened to every single kind of music i can listen to anything um and i love all kinds of music nothing is special to me uh but this is this is a genre

that i'm just now kind of discovering and exploring so it's it's a it's a part of a great journey and the songs are not lame that that's awesome and a big endorsement for christian music mtv guys christian songs they're. Well, you didn't say if you were still there as you were in the 90s or the 80s, you might have a different response. But we could come back to that in the future. Christian music's come a long ways. Well, remember, we did have Striper. There is video of me interviewing Striper. Really?

Wow. Yeah, Michael Sweet. That's cool. And it's really funny to see the interview. And I'm like completely – so you guys are a Christian band. Really? Wow. Yeah, Michael Sweet. That's cool. It's really funny to see the interview. So you guys are a Christian band, right? Anyway, so tell me about the album. I'm completely not interested in it.

They had good songs. That's cool. My dad traveled with Petra. He was one of the first that traveled with them in the 80s and that was considered radical for the time so well adam i mean i got a ton more questions for you we definitely got to do this again hang on after if you don't mind want to make sure you get a chance to say goodbye but before folks click away make sure you hit subscribe we've got some other conversations like this you will not want to miss and if you thought about studying apologetics, we got the top

rated full distance program information below. If you have an undergrad degree, you could potentially be in our master's program. So check it out. Adam, again, this was a blast. Really appreciate you coming on. Sean, thank you so much. Thank you for your work. I really appreciate it. Thank you for bringing me into the kingdom.