The Sean McDowell Show - Stuart & Cliffe Knechtle: Untold Stories & Biggest Mistakes

Episode Date: October 4, 2024

Stuart & Cliffe Knechtle have had HUNDREDS of discussions with students on various university campuses throughout the United States. Today, this father-son duo joins me to share their stories to faith, mistakes in evangelism, the most common questions they receive, top books that influenced them, their advice for the next generation of apologists, and more. In other words, what have they learned from engaging college students? FOLLOW: "Give Me an Answer with Stuart and Cliff Knechtle" https://www.youtube.com/@givemeananswer *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for $100 off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: @sean_mcdowell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org

What have father and son team Cliff and Stuart connectedly? Learn from engaging leading skeptics and thinkers today and fielding thousands of questions from students today on college campuses. What mistakes have they made engaging others? What have they learned from those mistakes? And what advice do they have for Christians today to navigate our divided cultural moment? I would run out and grab his leg all the time whenever it would get too intense. What was interesting was a bunch of grad students who really were grilling me on

that. I remember standing out there feeling so embarrassed. I made a horrendous mistake. This is an interview I've been looking forward to for a long time. Here's the goal of this interview is we could talk about apologetics topics, but I want to kind of probe into your story, your relationship together, each of your faith journeys a little bit, your experience pastoring and engaging skeptics today, and just your analysis of culture. So thank you guys for coming on from a cabin together. This is a treat. Thanks for having us on. Treat for us.

Well, it's kind of the elephant in the room, Cliff. I assume you're not making a pro-Trump statement with your earpiece. What is going on before we dive in? I got into a fight with my dermatologist and he won. Got it. And so he decided to remove the basal cell carcinoma on his left ear and that's why I'm bandaged the way I am. Fair enough. All right. Glad that he got it bandaged and we're good to go. Now, let's start with your faith journeys with each one of you. Cliff, I'd love to hear, do you come from a line of other believers? Were you kind of like my dad that was on a journey to disprove Christianity and came to faith? what was your journey becoming a Christian? I accepted Christ about 25 times as a young child before I found out you only had to make that decision once. And that was due to my mom and dad putting their six kids to bed every night with a action story, a Bible story, a verse of turn your eyes upon Jesus, and a memory verse. And so

I accepted Christ as an early age because they loved us so beautifully. And then they told us about the heart of God that loves us so deeply and haven't looked back since. Wow. So no big period of doubt or questioning like it just took with you and you've been living and defended it since? Well, many, many struggles with doubt. And I was fortunate that mom and dad were well familiar with InterVarsity Press. And so they would give me books written by different Christian professors from fine universities to help me think through those doubts. And then they introduced me to a lot of deep thinking Christians. And they really helped me tremendously.

And your dad, Sean, helped me a lot in thinking through the reliability of the Bible and why the Bible is reliable. So I was the beneficiary of a lot of people who are far more intelligent than I'll ever be who taught me and taught me and taught me. I'm so grateful to hear that your parents, obviously these are your grandparents, Stuart, rather than suppressing your doubt, rather than being threatened by your doubt, invited you into conversation. That's a lot what my dad did. And this is not my story, but going through a questioning period, my dad wasn't threatened by my doubts. He's like, okay, ask questions. I'm here to help you along the way. Now let's go. So I love that that's your experience. Stuart, what was it like for you? Did you accept Jesus 25 times that I did as well at camp growing up? What was your journey to faith? No, I remember accepting Christ when I was 10, got baptized then, and really was what I thought really solid in my faith. But I was homeschooled. Then I went

to public school in sixth grade. And that's when what I like to call the persecution started. I started to be called Jesus, not in the complimentary kind of way. I started to be called all different types of names, which I've never been called on college campuses or at secular universities ever since. So the persecution, it's fascinating how it started in sixth grade, how aware these kids are of what they consider Jesus Christ to be kind of a joke, or even that term spaghetti monster in the sky, they would kind of use. And obviously, they were getting it from their parents or somewhere else. So that was public school. And I was pretty solid in my faith again. But then moving into high school, I kind of got into

that crowd and started to live a life that was not in line with what I professed and believed. And so I think that's where probably the doubts started to come from. I usually say intellectual, but I think it was actually more volitional and the lifestyle that probably caused the intellectual going into actually a Christian college eventually, which I never thought I was going to go to, but I played the cross there with my brothers. And my sophomore year at Christian College, I remember kind of breaking down at my dormitory desk, and I had the Ravi Zacharias books. I'm sure I had a couple of your guys' books lying around as well. And I kind of tossed them and thought, no, hedonism is pretty good. And plus, getting forced to go to chapels seems kind of strange. Am I just brainwashed like my Mormon friends are? And that caused me to

dig deeper and read more by myself. And he gave me a ton of room to do so. I remember multiple conversations with him about it. And the more I dug, the more I got to the point of saying, no, this is pretty certain. And finally, my lifestyle started to line up more, obviously still sin all the time. But when those two connected, that's when I think, you know, the book of James was James chapter one uses that Greek word dipsyco. And rather than being blown and tossed by the sea to and fro, because a lifestyle that not doesn't back up what I was professing in my faith, two came together. And I think I, I started to create a spiritual journey that was way healthier. It's fascinating. You were were a sophomore because that was the year I went through a real period of doubt in my life.

Now, of course, I'm somewhere between the age of both of you. So this is mid-90s and I'm fishing on the internet and find these skeptics that kind of built the infidel atheist skeptical web responding to my dad's stuff. And I'm reading doctors and historians and lawyers sitting there in my dorm. It was the first time I was like, holy cow, I might be wrong about this. And it rocked me, but it was less, I guess

you could say hedonist life for me. It was just catching up with my own self-righteousness. I thought I was better than everybody else that did those terrible sins. And then it hit me like, holy cow, I'm worse because I think I'm better than people and, you know, filled with my own self-righteousness. But anyways, it's just incredible that both are around that same time with dads who were apologists, that we kind of owned our own faith. And it was intellectual, but it was more than that as well. Cliff, for you, was it a second decision to go into ministry, whether that's pastoring or writing or doing evangelism and apologetics? I'm sorry, what do you mean? So after you became a Christian, you described when you were younger, what was that decision like when you thought, you know what, I'm going to pastor and I'm going to be an apologist and do evangelism. What was that process like for you? Well, it began, Sean, in my life as I built friendships.

And I noticed that my friends did not believe in Christ. I was really one of the few, maybe there were just a few of us in the school I went to who believed in Jesus. And all the guys I played ball with did not believe in Christ. And I began to see the emptiness. I began to see the results of living immoral lives fleshed out. I began to watch divorce slowly begin to increase and the pain that resulted. And I began to realize, whoa, if I love these guys, if I care about them, I've got to introduce them to Christ. And so stumbling over myself, saying all the wrong things at the wrong times,

I began to learn to communicate Christ to my buddies and my passion for them to come to know his love and his truth drove me to work hard at it and to grow and to learn how to be a better listener how to respond more thoughtfully so it was a process that really started in in middle school when I was challenged by both the faculty and my buddies at school that Jesus Christ is ridiculous. You can't take him seriously. I love that. Now, I was fascinated by your story, Cliff, and that's really helpful, but I'm not going to lie. I'm more interested in Stuart's decision because it kind of

mirrors my own journey. I did not want to become an apologist. I did not want to write. My wife and I have known each other since third grade, high school, sweethearts. And it wasn't like, ooh, I want to become the next apologist. It was a very reluctant process for me, so to speak, for a range of reasons, especially at least in my mind when your dad is the Michael Jordan of apologetics. Like, do I even remotely want to do this? The first time I spoke, someone introduced me that I can welcome Josh McDowell. And I was like, oh my gosh, I'm never going to get away from this. And so Stuart, you have a dad who's a pastor. He's doing apologetics, writing books. What was that decision and process like for you to say,

not only I want to work at a church with my dad, which brings, you know, living in somebody's shadows issues, but I want to do this apologetics thing similar to my dad. What was that like for you? It was tricky to say the least. Early, early on, even in middle school, I can remember going back to my initial doubts. Once I was starting to work through those doubts and didn't get through them again until kind of the sophomore year of college. I remember specific moments as a young kid being like, why I would never be a pastor. I think only my dad could really pull that off because he was able to do all this counseling, all this preaching, do the university thing, and yet spend a ton of time with us. And also credit to him, back it up with his character. And that's typically, I don't see that with most pastors, many, but most I don't see that with.

And so I got to this point, though, I remember in college, it was not until my senior year, actually, where a lot of close friends said, hey, you're getting invited to speak at chapel. You're getting invited to lead FCA, a bunch of small groups. And why wouldn't you consider seminary even though you hate the idea? And it was really those friends that gave me a wake-up call, and then I think the Holy Spirit hit me, because around the same time, we took a trip up to Cape Breton Island, which is an 18-hour drive, and I remember grabbing some apologetics books, and literally, despite

the nausea from the car sickness, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, I started being obsessed with reading these books and wouldn't even get out of the car. And so that was just a total sudden spark. We started working together, pastoring in 2015. And the apologetics piece was just so natural in terms of kind of hopping in. The first time I did apologetics with him that I remember was at Southern Connecticut State University. And after the time together that afternoon, dad turned to me and said, all right, Stuart, this isn't a big counseling session. All right. We're actually out here.

And so that was a little bit of a wake up call, but a healthy one. I love that. I'm going to come back to some of the ministry you guys do together. But Stuart, it's crazy. It was my senior year at Biola. I was planning on coaching basketball and maybe working with FCA doing something totally different. And I took an apologetics class with the great JP Moreland. And honestly, I thought, you know what? I've heard he's great. This will be an easy A. I grew up with apologetics. Holy cow. This was the first time I learned like intelligent design, the argument from mind. I mean, I'd never heard this before. And like you, I was hooked. And that's when I decided to go to grad school and do the MA Phil program at Talbot that has William Lane Craig and JP Moreland and Scott Ray and these guys. But it was really my senior year that kind of set me on the trajectory of

going, I want to do something in the world of apologetics. Now, I'm curious, Cliff, you mentioned earlier that your parents gave you some books. One of the questions I had down before you mentioned this is, and I'm going to ask you both this question, who are some of the thinkers that influence your worldview, your apologetics, your approach to ministry besides each other, of course, who are some of those pivotal figures that you've just looked to start with Cliff, either just to answer tough questions or just do apologetics and pastoring the way you think it should be done? Number one is C.S. Lewis. Number two is Michael Green, the English thinker. Number three is is Michael Green, the English thinker.

Yeah. Number three is John Stott, the English thinker. So I've been heavily influenced by the English. I find that they have an ability to communicate clearly and concisely that I've learned a tremendous amount from and to think very logically. Fourthly was your dad. Fifth was David Watson, another British gentleman who wrote a few or just a couple of books. Sixthly was Jim Sire, The Universe Next Door, that book that he wrote. Seventhly was F.F. Bruce, who wrote the New Testament documents, Are They Reliable? And then recently, J.P. Moreland, Walter Storff, Daniel Wallace. I really appreciate Daniel Wallace with his work on manuscripts and the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. And I find him fascinating,

especially when I had to debate Bart Ehrman several years ago down at Union C. Chapel Hill. And Daniel Wallace has been a tremendous help with the technical aspects of manuscript evidence to me. So those are some of the guys. That's a great list. Dan Wallace is incredible. I actually had James Sires, a professor at Talbot in the early 2000s. And I kid you not, I walk up to him. He didn't know who I was. I wasn't even doing ministry at that point formally. And I just said, Hey, I'm curious, tell me more what you do. And word for word, he says, I'm like Josh McDowell, but for intellectuals. And he didn't mean that as an insult. He just meant that I do the same thing, but I focus on intellectuals rather than pop evangelism. And my buddy's like, Oh, this is his son. I'm like,

don't ever bail me out again. I was going to have a little fun with this. But his book, The Universe Next Door, deeply influenced me. I love that. So many of the thinkers you mentioned shaped me as well. Stuart, who are some of the thinkers for you? And we know your dad shaped you. We'll just let that one go for now. Who are some of the people you've looked to that have shaped your ministry and your thinking?

Number one, Tim Keller. Number two, Tim Keller. Number three, Tim Keller. Honestly, the level of his thinking and especially his most recent apologetics book, that Making Sense of God book. A publisher reached out and I'm going to be writing my first book kind of on a part two based off of that. Although I know that's, that's kind of what he meant to be a part one to the reason for God. Obviously my, my writing is nowhere near as good as Tim Keller's, but I'm so, I went for a master's divinity at Gordon Conwell and then did a master's mental health marriage

family. And the sole purpose was really to integrate those two. I think there's still a lot of good writing that could be done and could have an apologetics bent that could be connected to psychology, sociology, more culture, although there's a lot of culture right now on, but the psychological piece that he kind of starts in on that making sense of God, I would love to tease out in a book or two. And so he's by far and away had the biggest impact on me, I would say, in terms of I have 2,500 of his sermons. Oh my goodness. So I would say he's by far and away number one, although there's certainly many others. Going all the way back to haddon robinson

he was more of a a preacher but had some elements of apologetics um i think you guys mentioned the majority of them so that's a that's a great list i keller is one of the top that i try to model after he's wicked smart he does his homework he's so gracious and pastoral and kind. He never wants to humiliate somebody. It's just he's truly a statesman in that regard. And I love his writings and love his books. That makes total sense. spread the word that sounds like a fantastic uh fantastic project cliff back to you take us back to the first time you decided you know what i'm going to go on college campuses and i'm going to answer questions whether you gave a lecture or you stood out there and started just speaking inviting people around take us back to that first time and kind of paint the picture for us what happened and then why did you keep doing it? Leighton Ford was a father in the Lord to me. And Leighton, I think, was speaking at the University of Arizona and heard one of the Hellfire Brimstones preachers stand up and tell all

the students they were going to hell in a handcart. And he sat in my parents' living room and said, Cliff, go out there and try and present both the love and truth of Christ. So 44 years ago on the beaches of Fort Lauderdale, Florida, during the spring break when InterVarsity had its beach evangelism project there, similar to Cruz Beach Evangelism Project, I stood up and began to preach. And students hopped off their towels and interrupted me and started firing questions. So I scrapped my outline and began to answer their questions. At the end of an hour, I said, my voice is shot.

I've got to go back to the hotel. See you guys later. And went back to the hotel. And gradually, InterVarsity staff and students began to ask me, would you do this on our campus? So the first campus I ever did it on was SUNY Albany. And Charlie Tobelman, a missionary kid, parents of missionaries in Central America or South America, was driving me to the campus. And he turned to me and he said, Cliff, how many campuses have you done this on before? And I said, Charlie, this is my first campus. It got real quiet real fast. And yet I stood up on that campus there and started preaching.

And the Holy Spirit drew a lot of people. And we had an incredible dialogue. So we did it a couple more days. And then just InterVarsity helped open those doors for me to do it on campuses across the country. So if I'm doing the math right, 44 years ago, 1980, did I do the math right now? That was the first year? Yep. So in many ways, your approach is really similar to my dad's.

Now, he must have started, I don't know if it was the late 60s, maybe early 70s, kind of a free speech platform. But the crew just kind of threw him out there to start debating and discussing and doing the same kind of stuff. I didn't realize you both were kind of on similar tracks, so to speak, around the same time. Have you ever met my dad? Did you guys, have you ever talked personally? Yes, we had breakfast together on a campus. One of the Cal State schools, I can't remember which one, out in California years ago. It was a privilege to meet him at that

time. That's a great memory. Stuart, tell me some of the memories you have of your dad doing ministry. I'm sure you have a lot of memories of fishing and hunting or playing hoops, those kind of fun things. But tell me, like maybe him pastoring, counseling couples, were you there sometimes when he was debating people? Like what memories step out in your mind, stand out in your mind about this? You know, he would never touch an animal, so we have never hunted or fished together. It is all basketball all the time.

He played at Davidson. And I think you're a hoopster as well, so we should get a little three on three tournament going on with you Sean but game on it was it was incredible I I think you know I think back to the Berkeley days especially where you would get spat on I could still look up as like a three-year-old and see this towering figure with curly hair down to at least his shoulders, just spitting on my dad, him taking it, screaming in his face. And we know it can get violent. Obviously, many times it has been.

I'm sure your dad, if he was at Berkeley, had some violent encounters as well out there at Berkeley. And I would run out and grab his leg all the time whenever it would get too intense. So I definitely have a little PTSD over that I would share. And, but then, you know, I think a lot of it, a lot of it came down to his graciousness, but then knowing when to be intense. You know, I've always said like,

dad, you're one of the most intense speakers I know. You like rein it in a little bit, but then I have endless amounts of people come up to me and say, we've never seen your dad act out of hatred or malice towards anybody. It's always out of love, even when he gets incredibly Bobby Knight-ish, if you will. So, you know, I think it's – I've seen guys run up trying to break our cameras. I wasn't there for a lot of the guys who've pulled down their pants before with John 316 on the butt cheeks and

the guys who came out with fake guns. But those are my main memories. I remember a pie getting thrown on him as well. And it was intense. It was a whole other level back in the 90s. Now it doesn't get as intense, but we definitely have our moments. And so those were some of the memories. I think couples therapy as well. He takes a very apologetically based approach where it's, hey, just cut it out, guys. I mean, let's not make this too difficult. Let's not get into all kinds of psychodynamic Freudian type edible complexes, whatever it might be. Let's just get to the heart of the matter and let's set truth and then just stop fighting, for example. And get to the heart of the matter and let's set truth, right? And

then just stop fighting, for example. And I've known some of the best psychologists and psychiatrists actually who've taken more of that approach. So I think your apologetics really drives a lot of even his counseling. And that's been helpful for me in my ministry. So knowing this backdrop you just described, and then you decided to do this with your dad. You kind of hinted at this earlier where Cliff kind of said, you know, this isn't a counseling session, but maybe Stuart, take us back to the first time you guys did this together, kind of what happened. And then I'd love to hear a little bit of the counseling of what Cliff said, but we'll start with you, Stuart. Go ahead. Yeah. So that was a very small, small day. He always starts off with the announcement of we've been invited by InterVarsity,

crew, whoever it might be. We are here to share about Christ and would love to take your questions, anything related to any type of worldview. And so I remember standing out there feeling so embarrassed. Actually, a short story that happened early on, there was this random high school girl. When I say random, I just mean, I didn't, I barely knew her. And she approached me on, I think it was University of Texas campus. And she saw that I was mic'd up. And she had this shocked look on her face, like kind of like that would be the last one out there

in the world she would ever imagine kind of doing this, what she would consider street preaching, although we like to call it sophisticated university teaching. And she comes up and it's kind of a normal conversation, though. She's being thoughtful about it. But then out of nowhere, her sister, who's kind of this party girl who I didn't know at all, comes flying around the corner, doesn't see me mic'd up sees cliff starts nudging both of us and was like look at this weirdo not knowing he was my dad obviously then slowly looks down and sees that i'm mic'd up and i mean the level of awkwardness and silence that just hung there for a good minute was was palpable let's just say so i think a lot of that the counseling point of view you've probably heard it before, and you probably see it as well.

This head of InterVarsity, I think he's at NYU, put it nicely when he said, you know, I don't know, 30 years ago, it was all about, is there truth? 20 years ago, it was, what is the truth? And today, it's touch my pain. And so I think I take this counseling approach because I see a lot of the fragmentation and hearts and souls and minds of a lot of these university students, which is tough to see. And we've seen a lot of great things that have come from it, the gospel being the glue. But then also the far, far secular liberal perspective where it's, you know, everybody wants to be a victim and the heroic narrative that comes out. But that's when the counseling approach probably needs to take a hike.

Before I forget, I had Henry Cloud on recently, who's obviously one of the leading Christian psychologists. And he has a new book called Why I Believe. And the last chapter in the book is why he thinks psychology proves that the Bible is true. It's absolutely fascinating. And I want an entire book written on that. It could be a doctoral dissertation where he just takes certain truths from the

scriptures that line up with what psychology says about living a flourishing life and mirrors them together. And he's like, as a psychologist, this is why I think the scriptures are true. I think there's an entire world that could be explored there that we just kind of tapped, so to speak. So you could check out that interview or check out his book, Why I Believe, and he starts to flesh it out there and got both those together. I'd love to see a whole book on that at some point, but check it out. You mentioned a little bit, Stuart, about how is there truth and heal my pain. Cliff, you started in 1980. How have the questions changed that you received from college students over that 44 years, either in the way they ask them or the kinds of questions that they ask? There has not been much change, Sean. The major change that I've seen is when I start talking about the pain of divorce, it gets real quiet. So the breakdown of the family, I think, has had a colossal impact on students today. And the pain of watching mom and dad fight, fight, fight, and then split, split, split has been a deep pain. I think it's at the root of a lot of insecurity, a lot of fears, a lot of anxiety. And then obviously the growing secularism where the supernatural God is removed

and what's put in its place is a type of do-goodism, a type of be a nice person. That's what Christianity essentially is, be a nice boy and a nice girl. And that just doesn't cut it. You take the supernatural God out of the picture and everything collapses if you're being intellectually honest. And that's why I respect Camus and Sartre and Nietzsche, the French and German atheistic philosophers, for the way they took atheism to its logical conclusion.

And I think that's what more and more students are experiencing today, even though they might not know it, even though they might never have read Camus, Sartre, or Nietzsche, at least they are experiencing the total breakdown of a worldview that says that at the heart of the cosmos, there's a God who loves you and who really cares about you I think you're right some the new atheists kind of thought we can get rid of God and life will be the same or even better and I think you know these existentialists are like no you get rid of God the question is does life have meaning should I commit suicide or not I think I think that's exactly right so if if the shift is not really the questions people are asking, but the pain that's there,

how has your ministry shifted, if at all, on college campuses from 1980? Is it basically the same? Do you answer questions a little bit differently with a kind of a counseling response, or what does that shift look like to you? Well, the shift for me looks like I've got to be a lot more gentle with people. I can't be as direct. I cannot be as hard hitting. Although at times it is appropriate to be direct and very hard hitting. But often it takes a lot more gentleness, calmness. Maybe that's just my age. But I think there's more to it than that I think that we're dealing with more and more brokenness expressed in a lot of different ways so to really emphasize that indeed the being at the heart of the cosmos really loves you you really are valuable you're his treasure and

he's proved it through the cross of Christ I think is fundamental and crucial hmm that shift makes sense. When I talked to my dad and he would speak on these free speech platforms, I mean, he would stand on stage and he would scream sometimes to get people's attention. And you have eight or 10 people behind you. There was force and you show any weakness, you're gone. And that's in part why I think his personality enabled him to flourish in that environment. But it's shifted a little bit now, obviously.

I love that sensitivity and that pastoral approach. Although you're right, there's a time to be firm when certain ideas are just ridiculous, need to be called out. Stuart, how does your approach, how is it similar and how is it different from your dad's? Now, what I mean by that is I've thought about this a lot and I'm, how old are you if I can ask? 36. You're 36. Okay. So I'm 48. So I've got 12 years on you in a sense. I've thought about this a lot and I'm not the one being interviewed here, so I don't have to answer it. But in terms of my style and my, I don't know, theology or views on certain things, there are some differences with my dad. Now, from the outside, most people would be like, those are minor, which is fine.

But there's some differences that are there. I'm curious, whether it's because of your experience, your personality, your research, what are some ways you might differ in kind of your beliefs or your approach from how your dad does pastoring and evangelism? Yeah, I think I'm probably a little more verbose, which I'm trying to work on out there. And, you know, he's so good at bringing apologetic points, not just leaving them hanging, but bringing them back to the cross. And that's something that I'm trying to work on. I think for me, I try. And again, really. So what we found, for example, recently there was a woman who we had a large crowd out on a certain university.

And this woman comes out kind of screaming like a maniac, saying, Christians are doing it wrong. I'm a Christian and I do it right. Listen, and maybe this shows a difference in style. But you know, he took a fairly pointed approach in love in love, but I knew I knew she was just going to keep standing there. So I went up there, tried to slowly, slowly kind of diffuse the situation and connect with her emotionally and use some of that counseling piece. And we left. And eventually she got to the point of hearing me outside of the circle and understanding, hey, look, we all have different approaches in presenting the gospel, as long as it's the gospel being communicated clearly. And she actually got the point and hung

around for a long time listening so i think that's that's how we sort of play off of each other a lot of people in the past have said he's more of the theologian and i'm more of the philosopher i wish that was true i probably couldn't get past philosophy 101 but it's a compliment so i've gotten that and then a lot of people will say you know what their ears will perk up when they hear I'm a therapist. Just at Mississippi State, we had huge crowds out there just because it's part of the Bible Belt. I had a lot of students come up to me saying I struggle with OCD. I had a good amount of students crying in my arms saying I had suicidal ideation, and you guys presented the gospel to me and that has

changed my life practically. So I think that I probably get a little bit more of those types and he gets the harder hitting, more theologically based questions. We definitely have small differences. I'm trying to remember what they are theologically. Can you remember any of them? Very easy. He's handsomer than I am. Here we go it's a basic fundamental difference between us he's the handsome one maybe i'm slightly more calvinist than he is i don't know ah interesting okay okay well with that he appreciate you got going on stewart definitely wins the day there's no question about it but we're glad we're glad you're okay. By the way, I was going to tell you guys, I have a son, Shane, who's 12.

And sometimes he asks me, so dad, who are you interviewing? What's going on? I said, well, a couple of friends of mine, Stuart and Cliff Connectly. He goes, no way. He goes, I know those guys. I see them all over social media. Why didn't you tell me you know those guys? Like to my son, I'm that prophet who's not welcome in his own country.

He doesn't care what I do. But the fact that I know you guys, my son who's 12 about lost his mind, which was awesome. So that's just an encouragement to keep going. What you guys are doing is so valuable, so important. Just thrilled to see just the platform God has given both of you. A question I get asked and I think about is, what are the most common questions you're getting asked? Now, you mentioned, Cliff, that they haven't really shifted, but if you're going to say over 44 years of engaging

college students and beyond, what are the top two or three, four most pressing questions that people consistently ask? The problem of suffering, if God is all powerful and all loving, then why do so many people suffer? Why do you believe God exists? Why do you trust a 2,000-year-old book called the New Testament to give you any type of accurate historical information about Jesus? But then, Sean, what's interesting is there are pockets almost around the country of different students that get really hung up on an issue. And University of Texas, Austin is a great example. One year there, one question after another was basically on slavery and why the Bible justifies slavery. And what was interesting

was a bunch of grad students who really were grilling me on that one. And as I look back at Cornell years ago, that was a pocket there where the issue of slavery really came out. The issue of homosexuality and abortion come up on a semi-regular basis, and that has to be handled very carefully, very wisely, I feel, because I think there are a lot of traps that Christians can step into in answering those questions. I think you can go too far in compromising, and then you can go too far in rigidity. So I think you've got to be wise in the way you handle that one. The whole issue of science versus faith and how science cancels faith comes up with great regularity. Unless you can scientifically prove it, it's not true.

And obviously the one quick retort is, really, please scientifically prove to me that if you can't scientifically prove something's true, it's not true. And yet it still is a real issue that sticks in people's throats, the issue of science and faith and the contradiction. Those are some of the issues, Sean, that I get hit with a lot. That's really common that I do too. Now there's this light coming behind you, Stuart. I don't know if it's divine or if it's just coming through. So we're good. It's with audio.

We'll just keep going. It's no problem at all. I had that happen with Greg Keener one time. It's like he looked like he was transcending almost with the light. So what are the hardest questions? I want you both to answer this. And you could answer it intellectually or just emotionally and practically. What are the most difficult questions to answer to keep the conversation going and get to the gospel? I'll start with you, Stuart. What do you find the toughest? And it could be personal or just for the audience,

that when this comes up in the back of your mind, you're like, okay, all right, here we go. Still for me, it's slavery. Why is there slavery? And it seems like God condones it in the Old Testament. We've debated Matt DeLaHante, I think, at least twice on this topic and many others. So that's been a tough one. It's not overly difficult now that we've really researched it, but it's still a challenge. And the new ones, kind of to your earlier question, that I've found difficult in changing people's minds on have to do with the cancel culture.

And that is, why would you guys ever be friends with a racist? And if you're friends with somebody who has racist tendencies, then you're a racist. Or it was another guy who said to you not too long ago, oh, you knew a guy who date raped. Well, then you're part of the problem. If you don't call that guy out and turn him into the police and go the extra mile and making sure that he gets justice. And some of that's true. But basically, they're saying you guys are completely canceled if you have any type of contact with any of these sorts of people. Another very difficult one is this whole idea of personal autonomy and freedom, and what does that look like for a typical university student? A bunch of them

were pushing me not too long ago, really pressing me on why, as somebody with a mental health training, would I still say that a 15 year old shouldn't be allowed to kill him or herself if they have serious suicidal ideation besides stewart they're going to do it eventually anyway so why not help them in the process it's their decision wow and so we had a long conversation on that one there's a big group group of them really, really pressing me on it. So that's one of the intellectual and two of the more emotional personal. Yeah, that makes sense. How about for you, Cliff?

I really appreciate the freedom that we have in the United States, but I am sick and tired of hearing about choice, choice, choice. I have to have my choice. Really? Then I got to have my choice to own slaves i got to have my choice to be able to participate in the holocaust and gas jews baloney yes choice is important god created us with a free will but good gracious that's not the bottom line whatever i choose instead the bottom line is what's a good choice what's a good choice? What's a right choice? What did God create me to do and how did God create me to use the free will that he blessed

me with? So I'm getting a little tired and I'm going to come back a little more severely when people start banging away on the importance of choice. Secondly, the issue of suffering, I think, is the hardest for me. When my brother lost his little seven-year-old daughter in a horrible car wreck in 1997, and I went out and walked around that field in Madison, Wisconsin, he was a transplant surgeon of kidneys and livers at the time at UW-Madison. He had a faith that was stronger than mine, but I'll never forget, Sean, he quoted a Bible teacher who I'm

sure you would know about if I mentioned his name, but I'm not going to, who basically taught that if you're a father and you pray every night at your child's bedside for their protection, you're putting an umbrella of protection over them and nothing's going to happen to them. And so my brother looks me in the face and says, Cliff, I did that every single night. I prayed over my daughter's bedside and over her for an umbrella protection, and now look what happened. But then he continued, but Cliff, I know the guy was wrong. I know he was wrong in what he taught. I know the Bible never promises that.

But still, emotionally, it gets to me as I have to now go and do her, you know, attend my daughter's funeral. So, you know, I'm never going to get over the problem of suffering and pain. It just it hurts deep. And and yet that is exactly why I can't believe that people don't really accept Christ's solution, eternal life and forgiveness in heaven. I mean, come on, guys. If there is no God, then what is your stinking solution to the problem of suffering and death? You've got none, which means despair is the logical conclusion. So don't go and tell me about how you're going to party and have a good time and really enjoy life. That's just a cop out. You're taking an anesthesia called apathy and you're running away from reality. I so appreciate the resurrection of Christ and the hope of eternal life that my brother will see that precious little seven-year-old girl again one day mm-hmm amen I agree with that in the sense of the problem of evil it's not only intellectual

it's emotional and it's personal it sure is and I think it lurks behind every issue like gun control it's really about how do we minimize suffering immigration how do we minimize suffering? Immigration, how do we minimize suffering? A lot of the LGBTQ conversation is why am I treated this way? Why do I feel differently? Suffering. That's really the heart of the issue. And so, yeah, I agree. I don't think I've ever done a Q&A without something relating to that coming up at least once. I'd love to hear from both of you on this. Give me an example of a time where you gave an answer, you engaged somebody, and afterwards you're like, man, that did not go as I wanted it to.

I wish I could have said this. I would have done this differently. I could tell you about a lot of times that that's happened to me, but again, I'm not the one being interviewed here, so I get to ask you guys. We'll start with Cliff. He's been doing this longer, so presumably, unless you're just a ninja on every level, have a few of these that have happened.

Give us one example of a thing you would have taken a redo on if you could rewind the clock. Well, it happens almost every time I do open air dialogue on a campus. When I walk away, I am evaluating the toughest questions that I was asked and how I answered them. But specifically an issue that where I really blew it big time was at the University of Pennsylvania. Now that's a great student body there. They're brilliant, but they're also very kind.

And yes, they can confront and they can go after you but I really like the balance there. I made a horrendous mistake. I misquoted a Jewish student and As soon as I misquoted him, I mean the professors were jamming on me. The students were jamming on me You better apologize right now He would have never have a Jewish student here at this school would have never have said that. And so I apologized and, and his buddies went and got him and he came out and got in the middle of the crowd with me and said, Cliff, I'm sorry that I miscommunicated. That's not what I meant. And so I felt like a total loser. I knew I had failed. I had blown it big time. Man, you know, after we disbanded, you know, about an hour later,

I'll never forget this older man came up to me, and he put his arm around me, and he said, Cliff, you know you blew it. I knew you blew it. But guess what? God has a future for you. And in spite of the way you blew it, I know he's going to use you in the future. And I never saw the guy again, but I can promise you,

obviously it's about 35 years ago that this happened. Obviously, the fact that I remember it just tells you how much that meant to me and how God encouraged me through that older gentleman. That's beautiful. I love that. And I appreciate the way you started that saying almost every time I go out, there's something I would do differently. Almost every conversation I have, whether it's on camera or off, I'm always thinking, oh, I could have answered this better. It's a part of it. And it's part of how we learn and a part of how we grow. You can't do the kinds of things that we do without just rewinding the clock and going, man, I blew that one. But that gentleman, that's incredible. He deserves a crown in heaven for that

one. You talk about the Proverbs that say a soft word or the right word spoken at the right time. Yep. That's exactly correct. All right, Stuart, you've done this less, but can you give me an example? You know what? I'd rewind the clock and maybe do that one differently. Yeah. So this one, I've finally grown in this specific area, this specific topic and how to approach it because of Tim Keller, largely, is how do you deal with LGBTQ agendas and just the homosexuality piece at large?

And so I've done a lot of premarital counseling with actually non-believers who have said to me, Stuart, you don't know how to love your friend who's gay and you have a few friends who are gay if you don't agree with their lifestyle and so I have a response now that I actually am confident in and they usually respond well too I'll go back though to I think it was 2016 or maybe it was 2015 my first year with you where we were at a big school and it got pretty heated with an LGBTQ member. And all of a sudden, out of nowhere, this just horde of 40 tie-dyed students just come forcing their way out of the crowd and just shut us down immediately. It was a Wednesday afternoon. And I remember just this feeling

of just completely dropping down into my stomach and being totally depressed and depleted. Because I thought, wow, maybe we totally messed up. We're never going to be able to get out here ever again. But he did a great job with my emotions. He did the counseling card there, which I really needed. Otherwise, I would have taken the first flight home. And help me understand how you can't let that.

It's not necessarily that we did something really wrong. I think that day probably my approach was a little too intense, and I've learned from it, but it's still being smart, understanding that people are going to shut you down, and it doesn't mean just because they're loud and proud and there's more of them, it doesn't mean necessarily that you're fully in the wrong. So my approach, I think in that early, I think of another one where i think i corrected some students biblical grammar and he skated off on a skateboard very quickly saying you know you're a sophist and and so i felt really bad about that and haven't done it since but so some of those that's that's really helpful now i'm

going to ask you to give your response on that topic i know that's a different conversation but everybody's sitting here going okay you've thought about thought about this LGBTQ thing. How do you respond now? Before you do so, I've heard Keller ask this question, and I'm trying to remember what setting it was in. And the first thing he said is, we got to realize that the idea of loving your enemy is a Christian ethic. And he referred to the passage in Luke about the good Samaritans. So as Christians, we are called to love people who see the world differently. You go second, you know, Christians haven't always done this well. We failed in a lot of areas and we failed in the area of sexuality. So if you've been hurt by a Christian, I apologize about that. And yet to answer your question, I'm a follower of Jesus. And I think Jesus got reality

right. And he's the creator and his words about marriage. And then he went into it. And I thought, what a brilliant way to respond to this as best as I can remember. I'm not trying to compare you to Keller. That's not my point, but your response is tailored after Keller. What would you say about it now, given that you've been thinking about it? Yeah, I've heard him talk about the Good Samaritan. And I don't know if it was him or Henry Nowen who also related the prodigal son. And I know Henry Nowen had a struggle in that area. He did.

He had to confront for a while. And so I pull in the prodigal son typically where, hey, look, just because you disagree with somebody's lifestyle doesn't mean you love them any less as your child you're actually probably going to love for a time that child more who you think is living a destructive lifestyle out for that kid's sake obviously partying and blowing all of his father's finances and wealth, more so than the self-righteous son who's on the back step pouting about why didn't he get to party like his younger brother. And so

for me, I try and take that with a non-believer who thinks I'm hating on a friend who has a different interpretation and a different understanding of the sexual predisposition. And I say, hey, look, I can love them just as much, if not more than you. It doesn't matter if I disagree with their lifestyle. If I think it's ultimately destructive, I can still love the person just as much, if not more, because I might love that friend more than the other one who I agree with in their lifestyle, because I think that they're hurting and I think they're slightly off. And so I want to bring them hopefully onto the right path that would help them flourish the most. And I'll say to them, hey, I hope you do that for me as well. If you think I am deviating in some kind of way where I'm hurting myself,

I hope that you'd bring me back to the right path. And just because you would be disagreeing with my lifestyle or thinking doesn't mean that you are hating on me in any kind of way or loving me less. And so I haven't heard yet back from any of those nonbelievers an argument where they're saying, you know, I disagree with that. I think they respect that and say, OK, I can see that you could love just as much as somebody who agrees with that lifestyle. That's awesome. Good response. I'm tempted to have you guys back and just say, I'm going to ask you my top 20 questions and see how you might respond, but we'll do that another time. I'd love you guys to give encouragement to

people who, assuming you would agree with me, just this polarized, divided, politically dominated cultural moment that we're in. What kind of pastoral wisdom would you give to Christians watching this in terms of just how to navigate this season well? I know that's vague, so you can kind of take it anywhere you want to, but what would your encouragement be, Cliff? I am committed to building the kingdom of Christ, not the kingdom of America. Because I'm committed to Christ, I want my country to do well. I want my country to honor the Judeo-Christian ethic. I want my country to be filled with more and more

Christ followers. So I'm going to try and not alienate you because of our political differences or because of our political agreements but just a little disagreement instead I want to build a bridge of friendship and I want to allow Christ to walk across that bridge of friendship into your life second point Jesus said you've heard that it was said love your neighbor and hate your Republican no Jesus said you've heard that was said love your neighbor and hate your Republican. No. Jesus said, you've heard that it was said, love your neighbor and hate your Democrat. No. He said, you've heard that it was said, love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I tell you to love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. So if my enemy is someone on the other side of the political aisle, I have no option if I'm

a follower of Christ but to love that person, to work for their well-being. And I must remember that very very clearly. Third point, what is tolerance? Tolerance is not saying well in reality we disagree but I'm going to cover it all over by saying we agree. No, that's being brain dead. If we disagree, we disagree. Tolerance though is respecting the person who I disagree with, respecting them enough to listen and understand. The lazy person's option is prejudice. The lazy person's option is bias, stereotyping.

If I'm prejudiced, if I'm biased, and if I stereotype, it's because I don't want to take the time to listen to you and really understand seriously what you believe and why you believe it. So, let's be tolerant. We follow a man who, as he bled and died on a cross, prayed for his enemies, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. That is the essence of tolerance. He did not say, oh, this is fun. This is good what you're doing to me, nailing me to a wooden crossbeam. No, he didn't say that. He understood the differences. But he loved his enemy. He was

tolerant of his enemy. He respected his enemy, even though he radically disagreed with his enemy. So that is the balance that I try to strike in my own life, and it's the balance that I encourage others to try and strike. It's very hard, very difficult, but I'm convinced that the Holy Spirit can do that in my life and in our lives. I think most people resonate with that. I think most people, if it's the right setting, would understand that love involves being in relationship with someone when I think they're wrong about difficult, big questions. And if I'm only in relationship with people who see the world as I do,

how do I, do I even have to really love that person? I mean, I can only tolerate you. Still example, but I might tolerate tomatoes on a salad, but I don't like them. Fine, I'll tolerate them. You can only tolerate somebody that you think is wrong. We can't have a society if we don't have tolerance with people that we think are deeply wrong on issues that matter. And so so good.

I'm glad to hear that. What's your encouragement, Stuart, kind of in this cultural moment we find ourselves? Still keep your spiritual identity above your political identity. Way too many Christians now, the political identity has superseded the spiritual one. And so I'll walk up to somebody and say,

hey, who are you voting for? And they'll give me this look like just shock and horror. What an incredibly personal questions. How dare you ever ask that? And then the conversation, just like you guys said, totally breaks down. It's impossible to even have a conversation about it. Secondly, moral objectivity. We see moral relativism now, and so when there's no moral objective right and wrongs when it comes to these big topics of freedom, value of life, then all of a sudden we're shouting over each other we would slightly disagree on, even though we agree theologically. We have, I guess more so me, you've been wiser than me, have kind of gotten involved with a political party, the leadership of it recently, just in the last month. And so whether it's speaking opportunities, counseling opportunities, whatever it might be, how far are you going to go into it?

And I saw the documentary Bad Faith. I don't know if you've seen that with how oral robbers, all these guys, how they went a little too far. And so I've had to explain that to some of these guys where we've spoken at a couple conferences also that are very politically driven. But we talk about right out, you know, we sign waivers saying we're not endorsing, and we also preach the gospel. And so they've been tough conversations, because some of the leaders will really press us on, well, hey, what if you're just promoting

a potential Nazi Germany again? What if you're not like the confessing church? What if you're like those churches that have become apathetic and just think things are going to get better? And so that's a hard one to answer. You know, a lot of our common friends, Sean, I'm sure with you, would answer this question differently than us. I can think of a handful of them. So we've tried to work that one out together. It is not easy. I don't think it ever will be an easy one. So it takes a lot of prayer and I think trial and error to work through. Yeah, that is hard. I'm not political either. I don't talk about political parties. I don't endorse political parties. I only critique candidates if they make a worldview point, and I will do so on both sides.

But I want to minister to people in the gospel more so in advanced politics, even though I think elections have consequences and politics matter and we need to vote. That's not my calling. I know that's not your calling too. Now you mentioned moral relativism. Stuart, let me push back and see if you would agree with me on this. I don't think we live in an age of moral relativism. I think we live in an age of cancel culture, which only makes sense if somebody's done something morally wrong, we cancel them. So take what's going on in Gaza right now, and this is not a political point, but people will either say one of two things. Either Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians, or Hamas is committed to the destruction of Israel

and wants to wipe them out. There's nobody around today who's on the pro-genocide side and says, you know what, actually genocide's not a big deal to each his own. It seems to me that it was a little bit more of a moral relativistic age in the 90s and now there's certain absolutes like you said earlier if you're just a friend of a racist you're out because you're guilty by association so do you agree with that or by moral relativism do you just mean this entrenched autonomy where we're committed that each person can do whatever they want to do. And it's wrong to tell anybody else that their lifestyle is out of balance. Like flesh that out a little bit for me, Stuart.

Exactly. I thought very similarly when we get that issue coming up, that topic, I thought, well, that was a previous, I don't know, decade or two ago. I think I mentioned it because we still have so much difference over sanctity of life, of values, of is there, what is evil? You know, just this tragedy that happened yesterday, the shooting.

So often, whether it's the Sam Harris's or others, it's just a matter of, well, evil is a religious term. And there's not such thing as real evil. It comes more so down to taste, for example. He wouldn't say taste, but who was it at NYU? Thomas Nagel, who talks about it in that kind of way. And so I totally agree. Yeah, I think moral relativism, I would say those students or just adult people, whoever it might be, I think oftentimes they will push back against moral

objectivity, but then contradict themselves by how they live out that type of cancel culture. And, you know, we are so tied to the idea of justice now that I do think it's a good opportunity to talk about why there is something like hell. And one of the best apologetics moving forward for us, and it could be from a counseling perspective too, is forgiveness. Why forgive in a culture of self-assertion? Why live in a self-sacrificial kind of way and forgiving others?

You know, even Christians at our church all the time, it always shocks me. We'll come into my counseling office and they'll say, hey, this person did me wrong in this kind of minor way. I can be done with them for life from a Christian perspective, right? And I get that point more often than not, and it always surprises me. And I think they just become blinded. It's like the fish asking the other fish, what is water? And then swimming in a culture that is, let's just say, not based in

forgiving 70 times 7. Instead, it's canceling. And so it's just natural. Why wouldn't I just get that person out of my life, family member, friend, acquaintance, instead of actually going through the process of forgiveness and reconciliation? And Keller's last book, of course, was on forgive, which I thought was really powerful. And it is an amazing ethic because that's the thing cancel culture lacks. You do something wrong, we cancel you. Well, no, there's forgiveness no matter what you've done. And so in many ways, it's really counter cultural today. Love that.

Guys, I have so many questions for you that we could literally feels like we just got started, but we'll have you back, continue this. Certainly let me know if there's ever anything i can do big or small to encourage you guys in ministry you know last thing i'll tell you is three weeks ago my dad turned 85 and it's about the last year and a half he's just stepped back because of just health reasons can't do the kind of public ministry that he did in the past and i could see it come and i I remember thinking, you know what,

this could be the last time we speak together. It could be the last book we do together. And just savored every single time we were able to do that. I don't have any regrets. I know you don't, but God has given you guys this season. And one of the things I would hear a lot, maybe you hear this too, is people would say, you you know what i don't even know that i remember what you said but the love you guys had for each other speaks volume and i could even see in this interview ribbing each other having fun that you guys love each other so keep it up i think god has appointed both of you for this time be encouraged uh as my dad would say stay faithful to your wife he says that all the time to everybody. We got to stay faithful, but thanks so much for coming on and let's do the, in fact, actually in case people don't know, tell us where they can find both of you and your ministry. Oh, just YouTube. Give me

an answer with Stuart and Cliff Connectly. Instagram is Stuart underscore Connectly. TikTok Stuart Connectly. And then Ask Cliff on Twitter, and then Facebook, give me an answer. So our church is Grace Community Church in New Canaan, Connecticut. If ever you guys want to stop by, Sean would love to have you sometime. Connecticut is a long ways from Southern California, man. We almost couldn't be further apart, which makes it hard. But we got a plan sometime

doing a campus event together would be an absolute blast for so many different reasons. So let's talk about that. Maybe the three of us or the two of us, whatever it is, would be a treat. So the rest of you watching,

make sure you hit subscribe. Got some other interviews and dialogues coming up. And if you thought of us done apologetics, we would love to have you at Biola. Full distance apologetics program information below. Fellows, you guys are awesome.

Thanks for the time. And we'll do it again soon. Thanks for your encouragement, Sean. Thanks, John. Give our love to your father. Loved it. You got it.