The Sean McDowell Show - The Approach That’s Leading Muslims to Christ

Episode Date: October 10, 2026

Belle Liu is 21, she stepped into full-time ministry this year, and she has two mission statements: raise a biblically literate generation, and make Muslims Christian. I first heard about her this summer then Scottie asked if I knew her. What struck both of us watching her street conversations wasn’t the arguments, it was that you can tell she actually loves the person in front of her. Her testimony is remarkable and she tells it herself here. CHECK OUT: Logos Bible 60 Day Free Trial (https://logos.com/mcdowell) CHECK OUT: Consider Supporting the Ministry! (https://seanmcdowell.org/give) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [smdcertdisc] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

When someone you love is hurting, what do you do? We're often quick to say, if there's anything I can do, just let me know. But what have we stopped waiting to be asked and simply showed up? On the If There Is Anything I Can Do podcast, Pam McConnell shares real stories, biblical wisdom, and practical ways to walk alongside people through grief, loss, and life's hardest moments. Learn how to show up and make a difference. Subscribe now at k-lovepodcast.com, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts. I lived a very degenerate life. I was sleeping around with guys and girls and also got into drugs.

Just a wrong crowd. And the whole time, though, I was carrying a lot of shame. I was just in so much pain. There would be nights where I would be in my room in high school just screaming at God and being like, why did you create me this way? I hate myself and God must hate me too. I remember the first time that I saw you was probably a couple months ago. And I remember, I was like, who's this young girl just honestly. I was like dunking on these Muslims out in the street. How did the Torah become? It was revealed to Moses. What was revealed? What was revealed?

The book. What book? The Qatab. The story of Joseph is 98 verses in the Korah. How many contradictions? Irreconsalable differences do you think are in those 98 verses and our Torah? I honestly don't even have a clue. 9444.

The whole Levittical priesthood, the killing the firstborn, the redemption of the firstborn with the biblical priesthood, that's all dependent on the Passover, all dependent on the killing of the firstborn, all of these things? What are some of the ways that more trained, formal Muslim apologists will try to respond to this if they do it all? When they're being honest? Yeah, tell me. They don't have an answer.

Bel-Lu, you are 21 years old and you are making some ways. online in terms of evangelism and discipleship and apologetics. I want my audience to be introduced to who you are, but first, if somebody's like, Bell, I'm not familiar with yourself, how would you introduce yourself? That's a great question. It's kind of changed over the last few months and sometimes weeks. So my ministry is very new. I stepped out into full-time ministry in January through March.

It was kind of transition. And I have two missions, two mission statements. One is to raise a biblically literate generation. And the second one is to make Muslims Christian. And of course, I care about all law souls, but those are the two main things of my ministry currently. So you have a heart for discipleship for Christians, and you have a heart for evangelism.

That is so much the same for me. Those are the two things that I focus on. When I first heard of you in two ways, this summer, somebody was asking me for someone who would debate Muslims, preferably a female. It's almost like, have you heard of this young just, I don't remember what word they used, but like this young, sharp, motivated apologist named Bell Lou.

I was like, I hadn't. Shortly after that, Scott is like, Dad, do you know this person named Bell? Now, what would you say about Bell to our audience and kind of what she does just to give them a sense of why it's important to understand what she's doing? I remember the first time that I saw you was probably a couple months ago. And I remember, I was like, who's this young girl just honestly? I was like dunking on these Muslims out in the street. I was like, who is this?

But she had a different like demeanor about herself. I could tell she actually loved the people that you were talking towards. And I think on social media sometimes you see people, I'm like, yeah, they're just trying to get a clickbait. But the way that I was watching you, I was like, I actually can tell you actually love the person that you're talking to. And that really attracted me. I was like, man, I want to know her and I got to get to have a conversation with her.

So I love that. You two both represent. You're 22. You're 21. There's a number of young up-and-coming apologists and evangelists using social media well. Now, there's some who I would say aren't using it well, but we won't. name anybody here that's not the point and so someone who turned 50 recently i want to learn from you i want to encourage you i want to kind of mentor and help you along the way but i want our audience

to get an insight into what you do and why you do it but first maybe just tell us your story did you grow up in a christian home did you have a conversion to faith what's your testimony to use christian jargon yes so i have to start in my family my dad actually grew up as a missionary kid so my grandpa is actually a very well-known pastor in Taiwan. So if you go to any church in Taiwan, they'll probably know Pastor Adam Liu. And my dad raised us, me and my brothers, in the church. And it was, we had the gospel literally every single Sunday.

I grew up in the church. But around, I would say, middle school to high school, I went to a public school and I got with the wrong crowd. I also growing up, I always wanted to be, I never thought I was a boy, but I was very masculine. hung out with a ton of boys and very formative years, especially in elementary. Like tomboy to use an old term. Very, very tomboy.

And my relationship with my parents has been really redemptive, but especially growing up and in high school, I had a really terrible relationship with my own mother. And I never got this nurturing feel of a feminine figure in my life. And so anytime I would go into a space with any older women, could be like two years older, it could be a cousin or like a TA, anything. I would kind of cling on to them. I was like, okay.

Like, I really want your approval. And this, like, troubled me growing. I was like, why do I care so much about female approval? And I didn't realize it was because of the relationship with my mother and et cetera. I also was abused by a few men in my life from a young age. And also going into high school, I was also assaulted in high school as well. And after that, I just had this really deep hatred for men. And I also felt like I had to compete with guys as well.

I love basketball. And I'm like, why can I? Why do I want to stop and talk about that? But I won't. Keep going. I love basketball. I'm like, why do they jump higher, run faster, and shoot farther than me? It was so frustrating.

And so I'm like, I want to be a boy because I just, but then I also hate men now. So there was this, there was this tension. And so I was very confused, not with my own gender, but it's like, just like, why does gender matter and all these things? And so I really wrestle with that. But then there was this tension, too, because I would be going to church. And then I would read, I remember opening up the Bible when I was, I think 11. I read it for the first time. And I started in Genesis.

By the time I got through Leviticus. course. My brain at the time was like, what a misogynistic piece of film I am reading. I kid you not. You can ask my dad and my youth pastor at this time. I sat down with them. I could not have been older than 11, maybe 12. And I asked him hard questions. I was like, so Adam gets the curse of working for his food, but women get that too. Plus we get childbirth and periods. That's not okay. And so it was at like the age of 12, I was doing this. And so unfortunately, during during high school I definitely deconstructed and I also became also got

into relationship with girls and guys and it was just I lived a very degenerate life I was sleeping around with guys and girls and also got into drugs just a wrong crowd and the whole time though I was carrying a lot of shame because I hated myself so much and I knew that same sex relationships was wrong in the eyes of God

and so that kind of pushed me towards atheism but it was kind of weird because I'd never understood creation and science and how it marries the Bible and then I also just hated God too so it was an atheist. If I hated God, I'm not sure it was very all, it's all very complicated, but, and

also there were some spiritual mentors in my life that I think they just weren't equipped to deal with what was going on. And I was told some very damaging narratives. I also was called slurs, I won't say on screen, but that the F word and the other T word

that's usually geared to the LGBTQ community in Christian circles. And so it was just very damaging. So my view of God was just extremely skewed. And I was like, okay, I hate myself and God must hate me too. And so I also just fell into a lot of self-harm. I would cut myself all the time. I'll burn myself with a lighter.

And it was just really bad. I also think I had, I don't think I was ever, I had mental issues, but I definitely had anger issues. I'd get into fights with my parents. And then it would just go back into harbing myself. I was like banging my head on the wall. So it was just a mess. Like physically.

Yeah. It was really bad. And I was just in so much pain. I was very self-righteous. I was, you know, instigating fights at school, all these things. I was selling drugs at school. And so. that it was just a mess of things and i remember telling god i was like okay after high school i'm

going to lock in i'm not going to pursue relationships with girls and so at that point i was like well it doesn't even matter so i'm not even going to get it into a serious relationship with the girl so i was kind of just messing around with guys and girls both but then while one thing came to the next there was this one girl that we really formed a deep emotional tie trauma bonded through a lot of things and i was okay well now i don't know what to do because uh i'm about to graduate soon and i put her through a lot because I was trying to kind of ruin our relationship. So just so much hurt and trauma kind of, you know, swirled into each other.

And I kind of gave God a ultimatum. I said, okay, you have, until I graduate to show up to me, if not, then I'm just going to, I'm going to leave. I'm going to turn my back on you forever. That's pretty bold, by the way. Maybe foolish, but keep going with the story. Yeah, I should have been struck down immediately with lightning. Oh, my goodness.

And so it gets even more foolish. So I remember, so he doesn't show up. So I was like, well, you must not. care about me and you must hate me. And it's really interesting because I would tell the girl, I was like, you know, we're both going to burn in hell if we do, if we continue this. But it was like complete the wrong idea of God, first of all. So it was just super, so much tension. And so like a few weeks later, my parents signed me up for a 10-day trip to WIWAM. I don't know if you heard of YWAM. I have, yeah. Shout out YWAM ships. I went there for 10 days.

And I hated it there. In the beginning, I was like, I hate this place. Why are these people my age, but they're in love with God, and they're kind of cool, too. So I never had people in my, in my age group or demographic who were both cool and loved God. Everyone who kind of loved God were definitely at least 10, 15 years older than me. And one of my mentors, I love her to death, but I think the cultural divide was just too large. When I was going through all that, I couldn't open up to anyone in my family because, you know, very conservative family. And I remember one time she was like, oh, you go to public school, right? So, I'm thinking about sending my sons

with public school, I'm not sure, like, do you, like, know any, like, gay or trans people? Like, that's the way she had that conversation with me. I was like, yeah, they're all over at my school, actually. She was like, oh, wow. So that was, like, one of the spiritual mentors I had in my life. So clearly I couldn't open up.

And so the view I had of God was just, there was this big gap. And so then on day three of this trip, I got completely just encountered by his presence. But this was after wanting to leave the island because I was so fed up with the people here. I was like, God, this could be me and you. This could be me and you, but you built a swell between us. That was a narrative.

Sorry, what island? Oh, sorry. Wyoming ships is in Hawaii. Oh, okay. I should clarify that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and then I, on day three, his present just completely wrecked me. I remember I was in that room.

And this was after sitting in a few classes about, like, God's character and nature as well. And there was, like, an altar called to surrender. And I remember just falling to my knees and I just started bawling my knees. and I just started bawling my eyes out and I've never cried in his presence like that before and I'm going to cry up I'm going to tear up to think about it now but I just remember having this dialogue

with college like okay God I don't know who you are like I clearly haven't known you my whole life but I'm going to trust you and so at that moment I decided I was going to take a gap year and return to the space to do a five month discipleship program which is crazy for an Asian because we don't take gap years

go to college get a degree be a lawyer doctor engineer or somewhere in between Okay. So my parents weren't very, very thrilled. They were obviously like, they didn't know my double life. So it wasn't like this was like a huge deal to them. But they were like, you know what? Yeah, just this is awesome. Go go do it.

But again, they were not very happy about it. And so it was also very hard for me because I was like, oh, college is like everything. Like this is, I've worked so hard to get into a good college. And so that was definitely very scary to give up. And this was crazy because the day I got there, the first three or four people I met. all four of them were girls who had a same-sex attraction passed. Interesting. And two of them were able to disciple me through the entire thing.

And they were a lot further on their journey than I was. Because I remember going there, I was like, no one's going to understand me. Like, how do I, nobody can understand how I'm feeling right now. And so God placed those people in my life. And it was just three months of intense intimacy with the Lord. A lot of walls breaking down. And I remember I would go to class. The classes in the morning.

I would go to my room and just cry because I'm like I keep I'm having dreams with this girl I can't stop thinking about this girl like how why and I also struggled it's like why is homosexuality wrong like that was something I couldn't understand that and that was something I had to trust God for and it was just super super painful but three months into it he he just sanctified me and the thing is I went into it with a list I was like okay I'm going to deal with my homosexuality tendencies I'm going to deal with probably my pornography addiction and my drug addiction and he dealt with all of that, but the list was much longer. There were so many other issues I didn't realize I had. My anger issues completely healed. The way I even talked to my parents completely healed. I mean, they'll tell you. I'm a completely different person now when I talk to them. Everything in between.

And I just was wrecked by the love of the father, like I had never been before my life. And of course, I stopped harming myself. And I didn't even understand how demonic self-harm really was. I was cutting myself days up until my baptism because I was, like, frustrated. I didn't know how to take out my anger and my pain. And so there's actually, if you zoom in into my baptism photos, You can see the scars on my body. And so he was just super redemptive.

And three months later, I got baptized December 14th, 2023, and gave him my life to Jesus and followed him ever since. And I still do today. Unbelievable. So coming up on four years or so, now we're going to get towards your focus being on Islam. But is your ministry? And if it's not, why not is it focused on the LGBTQ community,

given that you talked about this so much and it was a part of your story? That's an excellent question. So I think in terms of disciplining the LGBTQ people in my life, I much more prefer it in an intimate setting. I think that the alarm bell of kind of preaching that it's wrong, I think that the body does a great job at that. And most of the LGBTQ people in my life already know the stance of the church. So I don't feel like it's my role to have to make that known. Of course, I would never say it's correct publicly. I just wouldn't make 10 videos kind of rebuking LGBTQ people.

I understand. And so that I would say that's never something I put much of my thought into. So I'm disciplinary people in my life behind the scenes. And so that's definitely not something I ever. Well, I will say in the future, wherever the Lord leads, I would like to speak on this a lot more. And I know my testimony is very powerful. And so I even thought of maybe writing a book one day or something to this degree.

But was the question how I transitioned to kind of dealing with Islam? We can shift to that, definitely. Yeah, tell me why your focus, because that doesn't seem like it was a part of your past. Definitely not. Or your story at all. Now, this is kind of your primary focus, so I'm not mistaken. Is that right? Like 100% is long?

I'll say like 80%. 80%. Okay. So why? What was the interest to that? So I think I need to start with how I got into apologetics. I love it. You're talking to the right person.

Awesome. So the nature of how my mind worked, I kind of touched on this was I would look at the Bible from like a 21st century, like ex-feminist, like, very liberal perspective. But now, and so, so that's what really got me to wrestle with the scripture. And that's how I kind of quote-unquote got good at apologetics. Because I never learned apologetics to defend the faith truthfully. I did it because I was like, it was messing me up in my heart. I was like, oh, this is hard.

Because I just gave my life to this guy named Jesus, right? He changed my entire life. And now I'm reading the Bible for the first time ever with an unbiased lens. And I'm like, okay, but still, this is hard. I think I'm seeing like genocide passages in the Bible. Bible. I'm seeing that, like, why do the women get less inheritance, like things like this? And I was like, oh, this is hard. And so it definitely shook me a little bit. I mean, it never shook my foundation because I knew what I knew what I knew about Jesus. But that's how I got so well versed in it because I had to, I had answers that I needed to answer.

And I also said this to Scotty yesterday. But I usually end my testimony with this, but I'm going to say now, you know, as an apology, people ask, what is the best, what is the best argument for for Christ? And I said, it's not... Did you know that the Salvation Army creates podcasts? From conversations about faith and culture to practical teaching from scripture, the Salvation Army's network of podcasts are designed to encourage you, challenge you, and help you grow in your relationship with Christ. This month, one of those shows, Words of Life, will be taking a closer look at some of the most famous stories Jesus ever told, his parables.

In a special five-part series, Salvation Army officer and pastor Major Cam Henderson, takes us deeper into some of Jesus's most powerful teachings. Jesus was full of joy. He knew how to paint a picture that would make people smile. When we look at the story, remember the context. Jesus had just been teaching his disciples how to pray. The Lord's prayer comes immediately before this passage,

so everything Jesus says here is about prayer, how to pray, why to pray, what we should pray for, and what we should expect. Listen to Words of Life wherever you get your podcasts, or visit Words of Lifepodcast.org. A book, it's not a line, it's nothing. It's the evidence is a changed person I am because nobody can have taken that bell and turned into the bell that is sitting in front of you today.

Literally no one, not a single argument, no book, nothing, only by the power of the Holy Spirit and only by the power of the cross. And so thank God I had that foundation. So every time I would look at slavery passages which shook me, I knew that. And so my footing was good and the answers came. And it was beautiful. In turn to Islam...

By the way, before you turn to Islam, you have wisdom beyond your years. And what I mean by that is you met my dad, Scottie's grandpa. Last night, he's 87 now. But really kind of was a trailblazer in apologetics when no one was doing it. On a popular level, nobody was doing it writing the books that he wrote, doing the debates that he didn't. I think I could be wrong with it. I thought he said he's had about 200 debates. And in every single...

debate, you would share his testimony. Oh, that's beautiful. It was always his closing speech. And he would say a change to life is the most powerful testimony. Now, if all we talk about is a changed life, well, everybody can talk about how their life was changed. So we need evidence as well. But you're right.

It's like the blind man who says, all I know is I was blind, but now I see and Jesus changed me. So keep that up, keep doing it with the apologetics. But pick up where you left off on why you shifted towards Islam. Yeah, so good. So how I shifted towards Islam was I saw content of Muslims and Christians debating online. And I started to doubt the Trinity. I was like, okay, you're right.

One plus one plus one is three. Paul did come. Maybe Paul did make up the Trinity. Maybe God never, Jesus never said worship me. So I was like, okay, hold on for a second. And I was like, okay, so if the Jews have half our scriptures, then why don't they believe in the Trinity? So just all these things that the Muslims will throw. And so again, it was, it wasn't, I mean, I was.

much as I love the loss, my heart for the loss, it was genuinely because I needed to figure it out first. And so that is how I got into theology. And I was like, okay, let's learn the Trinity. Let's learn the basics. And then I did begin to engage some Muslims. And in my time in Wyoming, I also went to some Muslim nations such as Egypt and Turkey. And so I did some ministry there as well. And it is very different, though, because of the language barrier.

And it's a lot more of the simple gospel there than in the West where we can engage on a very highly intellectual level, the same language. So when I came back last fall, I also just watched a ton of debate content online between Christians and Muslims. So I really got into it there. I started witnessing on the Cal State Fullerton campus right when I came back. And I ran into several Muslims there. There's not that many of there, but there definitely were. And I was like, okay, let's get into this more. And I was engaging all faiths.

I was talking to Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and I still do. I still try to. But how I got so dialed into this was, I got connected with my now mentor, Pastor Greg. So I got DMs all the time on my Instagram, and I barely check him. And he had like, at this time, he only had, like, less than a thousand followers, just like a middle-aged white man. And I was like, there's no reason for me to respond to him.

When I clicked on his profile, and it was like, followed by Wesley Huff. I was like, oh, okay. So I gave him my time of day because he had the end of me and just like, hey, like, I have some resources on Islam, but would love to train you. And then so that's the only reason I responded. So I didn't respond to my house. DMs then. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I didn't send you any. He did not. I would have I I'm just kidding. Oh that's so funny. So yeah I hopped up like a six hour phone call with him and he

just gave me like tons of stuff and turns out he and my other mentor Alex Kramley he's about Alex Kremlin is about 60 years old now insanely smart guy. They had been doing research on Islam for for decades and it wasn't just research it was research made to actually work so they built the system, we call it the master key, and it systematically deconstructs Islam and reconstructs it. And so our deconstruction process, it's made to, it's made so that it can be reconstructed into Christ. So we don't believe, oh, sorry, Mike, we don't believe in making Muslims atheists or New Age or Zoroastrian, because they are, they're becoming atheists. We only rip them out in a way where you can build it back into Christ. And so I'll kind of give you a little bit of the

master key in a second. But I was like, oh my gosh, like, this is incredible. And truth be told, the easiest most viral clip is running Muhammad married a six-year-old and had sex with her when she was nine. And those clips do amazing. Or even just like, oh, Muhammad had this. And so I was kind of wrestling because I was like, okay, but these clips do so well. And they're so easy. And the Master Key is a lot more kind of a slow burn rather than it is like a flashy thing.

And there's the elements I take to make it flashy. You had shared that with me when I actually, I had a phone call with Greg and with Pavel as well. part of your ministry and that was one of the things that they were walking me through and I know that you had said that you're like yeah we can run you know things about Muhammad Mary and a six year old nine year old Aisha but we don't actually need to and you had said something to me you said most Muslims get turned off and they get on the defense of the second you start talking about that because it comes off cross to them that you're disrespecting the prophet and so that's why you're like no we don't actually even have to go there not that those things

aren't true because they are but we can actually look at their scriptures and I like how you said you can deconstruct it and build that up into Christ and so I would love to get the master key. Let's talk about that. I want to make a point for the audience that's important is there's a difference between trying to build a platform for clicks and views and having a ministry that says, I really want to strengthen believers and reach non-believers. Now, when those intersect together, that's ideal.

I'm like, this is great content. People watch it. And it will help. It's when you go, oh, this is views, but maybe I'm offending Muslims unnecessarily in this context. maybe I'm not bridging them to Christ, that I think Christians should say, time out, why am I posting that?

What game am I playing? What is this about? That's a question not enough people ask. So I appreciate it early on. You're asking that question, which is great. So let's get into it. Yeah, let's do it. So to understand the Master Key, first and foremost,

is actually the birth of the Master Key happened in the streets of Toronto, where Alex, for 25 years, tested it on Muslims. So this guy's a mechanical engineer, an international chess champion, and he served on the KGB, like, border first and Azerbaijan, so this guy's, imagine his brain for a second, okay? Oh, my. So he's like, mechanical engineering is all about troubleshooting. So he ran it for 25 years, and now that's what the master key is.

It's a script that has been troubleshooted. He knows every objection that could possibly ever happen. Not just every objection and not just how to be right, but how to be persuasive. So what is persuasive? First, we have to understand some things about Islamic theology. There's actually a lot of... So there's, they do claim to affirm the previous scriptures, including the Torah and the Ingeob.

We'll talk about that a second. I want to focus on the Torah right now. But their theology, one thing you need to know is that they don't believe in original sin. So everyone is born sinless. And death isn't something to be saved from. And also the fall happened in heaven, Adam and Eve were in heaven. And another thing is death is a marker for the end of a test. Life is a test.

Death ends that test. So do you see how there's no needs for a savior because death never entered? So they deny the doctrine of original sin, number one. Number two, they deny the need for blood atonement. There's no blood atonement. There's a story of Adam in the Quran. And after the fall, he says, Allah gives him a repentance prayer. So he verbally atones for his sin.

You don't need the animal that was slaughter to cover Adam and Eve like we have in our tour. Third, they deny theophanies. There's no, not only the, of course they deny the incarnation, but they already deny the theophanies, even though they... Defined theophanes. Yes, the theophani is a manifestation of God in a physical form, usually a man form. And so they deny that. God would never, ever enter creation or take upon any type of creative nature.

So a theophony could be in Genesis 32 when God wrestles with Jacob or in the fire in Daniel, who's the fourth man like a son of man in the fire. Like, that's a theophani. of God showing up. That's what they deny. That's your point, just to be clear. Okay, keep going. I only bring that up because, well, they deny any of that in the first place,

but the funny thing is that that is taught in the Torah, but they deny even though the Torah is part of their scriptures. So that's very clear. And then they also have a Messiah. Jesus is the Messiah in Islam. He's not coming to die. If you ask them what's the role of the Messiah, they can't really tell you. They only can tell you what he's not, but they won't tell you what he is.

Same word, very different means. exactly so what he's not is he's not coming to suffer and serve and so those are things that we have to understand about the Quran because that's what the Quran teaches and so if you have all these things here when you throw in the gospel of Jesus that's literally contradictory to every single aspect of the Messiah and so until we can get this out of the way the gospel is never going to hit them and what we need to do is we actually have to deconstruct the source and that's another thing too people like to attack Islam politically morally all these but that's very very important. But that just comes from here. So if we can just remove the source, then their morals and

their politics are also going to change. We replace it with the Bible instead. Before we come to this, can I jump in? So you've mentioned some theological differences or barriers. Like there's no theophanies, for example. What about cultural barriers? Like oftentimes when I speak to Muslims, there's a sense of like, if God's a father and the son, there's this very physical human sense of like father and son, not what the Bible means. There's a deep kind of honor, shame kind of culture that's bedded within it. There's, I mean, everybody's religion plays a role of their identity, but in Islam, it seems so deep that there's so many non-Muslims Muslims who will just defend it because

that's their heritage and that's their team. Like, are there other cultural barriers besides theological, ones that come into play and how big are those compared to the theological ones? Yeah, of course. I think that the cultural one is there for certain. And it also depends where they are if they're in the West or if they're in the East. Great point. And where in the East? Exactly. But even in the West, it's deeply rooted in their culture and they're quite literally picking up a massive cross. That is what it means to pick up a cross to follow Jesus because they're turning back to their families, oftentimes their jobs, their community, and oftentimes even danger as well.

And so I think that, I wouldn't say, oh, one's more important. One has a bigger barrier than the other. I think both are huge. However, what I found, and I can share a few testimonies afterwards of Muslims. I've personally got on the privilege to lead to Christ that if you deal with the Quran and you replace it with the Bible, the culture barrier doesn't matter. They just want, they just want Jesus. Good.

And so that's why I really want to focus on it. So with that being said, all of those four things I just mentioned, guess what other religion holds to this? These four things. We talked about the Judaism. Yeah, rabbinical Judaism. We talked about this yesterday. So I want to steal a man in the rabbinical position because they're very complicated and the rabbis disagree with everything. But at the bottom line, there's no original sin.

They deny the need for blood atonement. It's verbal atonement now, just like Adam verbally toned in the Quran. they deny the theophanies in the Torah, even though we have the same Torah in the synagogues and our churches. And then the Messiah, they wouldn't teach that he's coming to die. And so with that being said, what is going on here? Islam is a rabbinical heresy. It's an offshoot of rabbinical Judaism and not necessarily a copy of Christianity.

So people think that Islam copies Christianity, which is true. So that's why I want to get into the structure of the Quran. The Quran is about 6,000 verses in total. about 1% of those verses paralleled the New Testament while 16% parallels. I've got to jump in here because I'm tracking. So I, I,

I, I, I, psychologically agree with rabbinical Judaism, the connection that you made, but historically and geographically, out of which Islam emerged is such a polytheistic

pagan culture as well, that that's a piece of the story of where Islam came from. I would actually say proportionally, it's a lot more rooted in rabbinical Judaism. that it is paganism. I say that because of the structure of the Quran. And so that's why I was,

what I was going to say is the Quran is about 1% parallel in its verses to the New Testament. But it's actually 16% of the entire Quran is specifically about the Old Testament stories. 16, 16%? 16%? 16% old. And so there's about 1100 verse. There's 6,000 verses, 1100 of those verses is found in the Old Testament. Jesus is the sixth most mentioned Bible character.

Sorry, seventh most mentioned Bible character. Guess who the first is? Is it Adam or Moses? So who's the most important character in rabbinical Judaism? Moses. Okay, who's the second most important rabbinical Judaism? Abraham. Okay, so Abraham's the second most mentioned in the crown.

Guys, a lot is more mentioned in the Quran than Jesus is. Think about that for a second. Let that sing in. So all of these, what's going on here? I'm not saying that Muslims are Jews, far from it. But if we're going to be persuasive, we want to really understand where the Quran comes from. Then with all these parallels, it's almost as if we're talking to a rabbinical Jew almost. And so when we actually go talk to a rabbinical Jew, are we going to open up the New Testament and shove it in their face?

And be like, look at Jesus. Look at, no. What are we going to do? We know the Old Testament. So that is basically the Master Key. And so I'll get into this right now. So there's two verses we use. Actually, I'll remember.

But it's surah 1094. It talks about the previous stories. says if you are in doubt, talking about the audience of Muhammad, if you are in doubt of these stories, then go ask the people who read the scripture before you. And if you look at the context of that verse, this is actually the most taken out of context verse in all of apologetics right now towards Muslims. They say that that is talking about the entire Bible. I would disagree because the context shows stories of Moses, Abraham, sorry, not I... Did you know that the Salvation Army creates podcasts? From conversations about faith and culture

to practical teaching from scripture, the Salvation Army's network of podcasts are designed to encourage you, challenge you, and help you grow in your relationship with Christ. This month, one of those shows, Words of Life, will be taking a closer look at some of the most famous stories Jesus ever told, his parables. In a special five-part series,

Salvation Army officer and pastor Major Cam Henderson takes us deeper into some of Jesus' most powerful teachings. Jesus was full of joy. He knew how to paint a picture that would make people smile. When we look at the story, remember the context. Jesus had just been teaching his disciples how to pray. The Lord's prayer comes immediately before this passage. So everything Jesus says here is about prayer, how to pray, why to pray, what we should pray for, and what we should expect.

Listen to Words of Life wherever you get your podcasts. Or visit WordsofLifepodcast.org. Moses, Noah, Aaron, and Pharaoh, and settling the children in their blessed land. Where are all those stories found? So there's not a single reference in the context of that to the New Testament? In that verse? No, not for that specific verse. And so it's talking about, but it makes a very clear claim about the stories.

So those stories are all found in the Torah. Excuse me. All found in the Torah. And then also in Surah 12, verse 111, this is the chapter of Joseph. It says that this is a detailed, it's a confirmation of the previous scriptures and a detail. confirmation of it. And the story of Joseph is 98 verses in the Quran. And that verse that I just read ends those 98 or so verses of Joseph's story in detail.

So how many contradictions, irreconcilable differences do you think are in those 98 verses and our Torah? Give a guess. There's 98 verses. Less than 10? I honestly don't even have a clue. 944. Yeah. Okay, I was way off.

Yeah. I was way off. You went the opposite direction. I didn't even have a guess. And the miracle of the Quran is that Muhammad was illiterate, but he got all these stories correct. Now, now they'll rebut with certain things, but that is the reality of what the Quran is claiming.

And so I wanted to show. Like an example. Yeah, let me show you that's exactly what I'm going to do right now. Okay, good. 900 at 98 verses. And they call verses. Ayas. Ayas, which are rooted in suras.

And so. Surah is a chapter. A chapter. And then, right. what we would call a chapter in the Bible. That's basically 10 perverse, if I'm doing the math. It's pretty bad. Give us one or two.

So how old was Joseph in the Bible when he got thrown into the well and sent to Egypt? He was young. I don't know exactly age. I don't remember the exact age. Okay, it was 17. So the Bible actually specifically says he was 17. In the Quran, he has to be babysat by his brothers. In the Torah, he's going miles and miles with sheep by himself to,

find his brothers. That's a 17-year-old guy. Okay. Quran says he was a little boy. Another one is the reaction of Jacob. So how did Jacob react to Joseph's death? Or the news of Joseph's death in the Bible? Like he's devastated. He's crazy.

And then he was like, I can't believe it. And even years later when they're trying to tell him, he's like, no, my, it says Jacob's heart became numb because he just couldn't believe that Joseph was alive. But in the Quran, Jacob's immediate reaction was like, no, I know he's a little. life. And then later on, when he's sending them back to Egypt, he's like, nope, he's alive. And then when he finds out, he's like, see, sons, I told you so. I knew what you didn't. Allah told me what you guys didn't know. And so, so that's, first of all, that's a complete opposite, right? And so, I'm about to get into the methodology here. What's the methodology?

But one more example I'm remembering it. Who adopted Moses in the Bible? Pharaoh's wife or Pharaoh's daughter? Pharaoh's daughter. You've been watching Prince of Egypt, huh? I've been watching the Prince of Egypt. Yeah. Egypt gets the Bible wrong in that specific detail. So it was Pharaoh's daughter. In the Quran, it's Pharaoh's wife. I've been reading the Quran. That's what it was. So what's going on here.

What? The Quran supposedly is supposed to be the correct version. It's correcting the Torah. So that means the original Torah said it was Pharaoh's wife, not daughter. So that means somebody corrupted our Torah to say Pharaoh's daughter. If you actually look at the passage of Pharaoh's daughter, it says Pharaoh's daughter about six times in just one passage over and over and over. And we actually have that in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The thing is, this can't be an accidental error. Let's just say it was someone corrupted the scripture.

It can't be on accident, right? The Hebrew word for Pharaoh and daughter is not even similar at all. So it can't be a scribble error. And the thing is, here's the methodology. There's only two types of corruption. There's intentional corruption and unintentional corruption. This cannot be unintentional. No way. Because you can't actually pen slip every single time it says daughter into whites, right? Six times in a row. Right. Yeah. And then just think about the story of Joseph for a second. That just would be impossible. And so now we're left with intentional changes.

So if it is intentionally changed, there has to be a motive. There's only really four hypothetical motives. The first one is prophecies of Muhammad. They will say that Christians and Jews, mostly Jews, corrupted the previous scriptures to remove Muhammad and to remove the prophecy of Muhammad. Does that have to do it with Muhammad at all? Okay, next. Political motive. They say that Jews always like to get it.

themselves more power so they change the scriptures to do so does that give jews more one group more power over the other no the big picture story is the same joseph still becomes a very important leader in in egypt okay next one ethical does this change your view on abortion polygamy murder no no so it's not moral no it's not an ethical motive either the last one is theological does this have anything to do with trinity or taohi taohi is a oneness of god no not at all right and so if it didn't happen intentionally and didn't happen unintentionally, it didn't happen at all. So what makes, and the more you stack each of these stories, which I'm actually about to show you some.

By the way, before you show in the next one, when somebody says the text has been corrupted, we have two ways to analyze this. One is internally, and you're saying there's no internal reason we can give that they would change it that matches up with the claims that are made, and we can look externally to see oh, are there competing manuscripts, some that say mom, some that say daughter, then it's possible, but I haven't done the research on this, but presumably it's unanimous, dead sea scrolls, all the manuscripts we have are the daughter, not the mother. And this is written in case people aren't aware, you know, Quran, we're going, what, six, seventh century, as opposed to

Dead Sea Scrolls at least a century before the time of Christ. It doesn't, it's a claim made, removed internally and externally from the data that we have. That's correct. Yes. Okay, keep going. And one thing I want to emphasize. here is when you talk to a Muslim, they are just going to go for general corruption. So they'll say, see, the Dead Sea Scrolls is missing, uh, portions because it's very fragmentary. So that is evidence that the Torres corrupted. Technically, yes. Well, no, but I don't want just general corruption.

If they, and they find a single variance in, in one codex versus another, they'll be like, oh, that's, that's corrupted. But no, no, no, no, I don't want general corruption. My lovely Muslim friend, I need specifically what was corrupted. I wouldn't use the word corruption for that, by the way. I know you're using the language that they use, but a difference is not necessarily corruption to me. But corruption implies intentional. I'm sorry.

It could be unintentional. Let me clarify what I'm saying. I'm using the language that they will use. Right, got it. To consider the variance corruption. The claims that they're making. Exactly. Yes. So let me just show you some examples.

So with the same methodology, we're going to use this on the story of Moses and the Quran. So here it is. So why are you? All right. Lean into the mic so we don't lose you. Oh yes. This is the story of Moses and the Quran and Scottie's going to read this. Go ahead and read from verse 26 to the end right here where it's highlighted. So the context of this is

Moses's marriage story. Okay. And before you reads it, you'll take this out and you'll talk to Muslims on the street about this and use this practically. Okay, just give you context. My favorite setting. My favorite setting is one-on-one on a Google Me or in a private setting. But yes, it's also fun on the street. 26 to 29.

And so just so people know, you're not just doing this to do a gotcha moment of people to get a video. There's a time in place for that for people to learn, but you're doing this more so without even that video because you're just reaching out to Muslims. Love it. So your social media is downstream from the heart of what you do. Scott and I talk about this all the time. I'm like, I'm not going out to do something to get it on video.

To get it on video. I'm only going to do something I would normally do. And if I can use the video to help somebody on social media, so be it. Exactly. Keep going. 26 to 29? Yeah. Okay.

One of the two daughters suggested, oh, my dear father, hire him. A strong, trustworthy person is definitely the best to hire. The old man proposed, I wish to marry one of these two daughters of mine to you, provided that you stay in my service for eight years. If you complete 10, it will be a favor from you. But I do not wish to make it difficult for you. God willing, you will find me an agreeable man. Moses responded, then it is settled between you and I.

Whichever term I fulfill, there will be no further obligation on me. And God is a witness to what we say. When Moses had completed the term and was traveling with his family, he spotted a fire on the side of Mount Turr. That's good. That's the burning bush, by the end. Okay, what is going on here? What stands out to you? Moses is talking about marrying or was it Moses or the person he's talking about is marrying some giving his daughters for marriage.

Exactly. So Moses has to work two terms. It's Moses. Okay, yeah. For one of the two daughters. What does that sound like? The story of Jacob and Leah. Socrans is mixing this up. Also, at the well, Moses in the Bible, meets seven daughters. He meets two women at this well.

Because they also have the well story here. And Jacob is the one who marries the two sisters, right? So that's what's mixed up. And then who is Moses with at the burning bush in the Bible? Who is he with? Yeah, who was he with? Like, you mean, like, somebody else besides... You mean, in the...

Not in the fire. He's speaking of the Lord. Was he with his family? No. He was by himself. He was with a sheet, right? But he was with his family. Here.

You see what's going on here? It's not only wrong, it's just completely mixed. So with the methodology, it's like, what a Muslim has to claim is that if this is the true original Torah, somebody changed this version of the Torah to the Torah we have today. Meaning, they completely made up the story. of Jacob and it corrupted the version of Moses. And in a book written seven, eight centuries after, the earliest copies that we have.

Yes. So what we do is we keep piling on these stories. And of course what they have to do is they can't even say it was corrupted pre or post-seventh. They would say it has to be post-ded sea rules. So that is the claim they have to make. But the more you give these to them and you just pile them on and on. So we call these pebbles, right? Okay, can it?

Yeah, go ahead. Before we come to pebbles. Okay. So I'm trying to think if, and I haven't done a deep dive on this example, if I were to take the other position, argue against you, I'd say, oh, this happened to Jacob, but it also happened to Moses. This is giving details and a further story that wasn't included in the original one. And you would say that doesn't work because why? Well, because we have an account of Moses and Jacob in the Torah. Separate accounts of their lives.

Yeah. Yeah. And so it would still be why. Why do they change it? Because was this intentional? Yes, it had to be very intentional. Whoever, whoever corrupted the original Torah has to be very intentional. Okay. Sorry, just trying to make sure I understand. So this is the story of Moses at the well. Yes. But it brings in stories from Jacob to the story at the well and confuses those two stories. So they couldn't say, no, no, it just sounds similar to the story at the well. Yes. And confuses those two stories. So they couldn't say, no, no, it just sounds similar to the story of. Jacob, we're not confusing here. Yeah. We're adding details that weren't there. And it contradicts. Why couldn't they make that claim? Because it also contradicts the version that we have in the Bible.

Of who's with Moses at the well. So there's added detail and there's confused detail in the story. There's confused. It's both of them. It's confused and contradicting. Okay, got it. So that's the issue here. Okay.

Okay. I'll show you one more example here. This is a story of King Saul. Mm-hmm. Okay. You could read from two, four. 49 to the underlined. Okay.

All right. 249. When Saul marched forth with his army, he cautioned. God will test you with the river. So whoever drinks his fill from it is not with me. And whoever does not taste it except except from the hollow of his hands is definitely with me. They all drink their fill except for a few. I think I know where this is going.

When he and the remaining faithful with him crossed the river, they said, now we are no match for Goliath and his warriors. but those who believers who were certain they would meet God reasons how many times has a small force vanquished a mighty army by the will of God and God is always with the steadfast when they advanced to face Goliath and his warriors they prayed our Lord shower us with perseverance make our steps firm and give us victory over the disbelieving people

so they defeated them by God's will and David killed Goliath and God bless David with with a kingship and wisdom and taught him what he willed that's good what's wrong here So the first To me That sounds like the story of Gideon With picking up the water And that's not anywhere in the in the Bible

Not in first Samuel 17 for sure So you're you're talking about that that can't be in both Because just because it's not in Just because it's not mentioned in the Bible Why is it wrong that it can't be mentioned in the Quran? Did Saul in his army charge at Goliath? No Okay then

So it's a very different story of King Saul Okay And also that's not just one Like, for example, in the Bible, King Saul comes from a wealthy family. In the Quran, they say he's poor and the people are complaining that he's too poor. So it's like there's so many. Like the ones I just read is just a snippet of King Saul story. Every single one of the characters in the Quran has literally hundreds, if not thousands, for some of them, differences and contradictions from our Torah.

And so you're saying there's not a political theological, there's none of those reasons as to why those would have been changed in the Quran. If it was, like, I don't know, something else about King Saul that could have. have changed the story, then that would be more of a, okay, it may have been changed, but you're saying there's no reason for that to be changed. Exactly. Okay. I'll give you one last example, actually, and this one is probably the biggest shock. While you're turning out, the idea of Saul charging with his armies is so absolutely contradictory

to 1st Samuel 17. Right. The whole point in 1 Samuel King chapter 8 is that Saul is, they wanted a king who would defend them, and Saul refused to do so. and David stepped up to Saul's shame. So it's almost like he's turning Saul into a hero, which is the opposite of what the biblical text is teaching. Do you want to know something really interesting?

Yeah. And so in the midrash, you've heard of the midrash? The rabbis make Saul look amazing. He's like the best character ever. And in one midterash, it says that he was as pure as a newborn. So one thing about the rabbis, they really try to whitewash all the sins of the patriarchs and the prophets. So Adam is also the first prophet.

the rabbi. So I'm just trying to show you like the tie of like Saul's not a patriarch or a prophet. Well you know what you know what? So I'm talking about from the rabbi standards. Right. You know why? Because of that one time he prophesize when the spirit comes in. So they take, the rabbis take one small thing and then they run with it. Yeah. Anyways go ahead. Am I just reading the first verse? Yeah so this is Moses and the ex. Pharaoh challenging Moses. Exodus story. Go ahead. It says we surely gave Moses nine clear signs. Continue reading. Don't read the brackets because the brackets. Because the It's not in the original Arabic. Okay.

U.O. Prophet can ask the children of Israel. Wait, wait, hold on. Just pause right there. The U.O. Prophet is in brackets. So take that out. Read it from the beginning without the brackets. That bracket's small. Wow.

We surely gave Moses nine clear signs. Ask the children of Israel. That's good. How many signs? How many plagues are there? Did you know that the Salvation Army creates podcasts? From conversations about faith and culture to practical teaching from scripture, the Salvation Army's network of podcasts are designed to encourage you, challenge you,

and help you grow in your relationship with Christ. This month, one of those shows, Words of Life, will be taking a closer look at some of the most famous stories Jesus ever told, his parables. In a special five-part series, Salvation Army officer and pastor-major Cam Henderson takes us deeper into some of Jesus' most powerful teachings. Jesus was full of joy.

He knew how to paint a picture that would make people smile. When we look at the story, remember the context. Jesus had just been teaching his disciples how to pray. The Lord's prayer comes immediately before this passage. So everything Jesus says here is about prayer. How to pray, why to pray, what we should pray for, and what we should expect. Listen to Words of Life wherever you get your podcasts or visit WordsofLifepodcast.org. 10.

Okay. Okay, but that makes sense to me. The Quran would say nine because they deny blood atonement. They're not going to want the Passover. Exactly. That makes clear. That's great. But this is.

this is a huge claim. If you remove, the Passover is extremely well attested in history. Right. And the beauty of our Bible is, it gives such detailed accounts of the Exodus story. So there's the Exodus version also in the Quran. And the version of our Bible,

the correct story in the Bible, they leave because Pharaoh sends them out, right? He says, he summons them and says, leave right now. In the Quran, they're sneaking out. night. So there's not there's no room for oh they just didn't mention it. No. The Quran actually lists out all the other ones. They don't even get all them right. It includes like floods and and things like this. So there's no flood. There's no flooding plague. So the crown gets like three of

the plagues right. And it names all nine, but it doesn't mention the death of the firstborn. And so if you actually look at the Bible, that type of corruption would be insane for someone to add in the Passover because we know all a lot many of the kings during the time of kings they would reinstate the Passover they would practice it right hezekiah Josiah and so that means every time that happened somebody went in and added Passover added Passover added Passover the feast of 11 bread is dependent on that the whole levitical priesthood the killing the firstborn the redemption of the firstborn with the levical priesthood that's all dependent on the Passover all dependent on the killing of the firstborn all of these things and so all of those things were added now according to a Muslim and so I just gave

you three examples. There are thousands of examples like this. Thousands, for example. I guess if there's 998 verses on Joseph, then there's arguably thousands. And by the way, when I hear stuff like this, I go, okay, I want to be charitable to a Muslim approach because there's skeptics who will look and go, you say there's one angel, there's two angels, you say it's light when you go to the tomb, you say it's dark when you go to the tomb. You're saying these are fundamental. Irreconcilable. You're reconcilable. Agree. But I'm just saying there's a qualitative difference between saying if there's two angels, there's one.

And if you say one angel spoke, it doesn't mean there's not two. There's a tension there, but not a contradiction. These are direct contradictions in quality and in quantity. There's so many more. Absolutely. I have a question. So you had said that your approach is you don't want to rip out Muslims and then they just go to atheism where they go to somewhere else.

You want to rip them and read them straight back into Christ. So all we did was talk about the Old Testament. How do you get them from, okay, I see that the Old Testament or what the cross says is corrupt, how do I get that? How do you get them to Christ? That's a good question. Can I bracket one second? This is exactly the right question to go to. But there's a difference in your approach between somebody on the street and like apologists who defend this stuff.

And so I could use arguments with people on the street that would just, you know, maybe make them look stupid and make stuff up or whatever. But then apologists are like, no, no, no. There's actually a good response to this. What are briefly, because I know you're doing evangelism, what are some of the ways that more trained, formal Muslim apologists will try to respond to this if they do it all before we come back to how you bridge it to Christ? When they're being honest? I would love to know when they're being. Like when they think they're not being recorded? Yeah, tell me.

They don't have an answer. I'm not joking. So I'll share it. They'll concede that. They'll tell you we don't have an answer. Yeah. So they'll say, I don't know. Or I take it as they don't have an answer when they run to the New Testament.

Explain the Trinity. So I was actually with Shabir Ali the other few weeks ago. People don't recognize his name. He's been one of the most outspoken Muslim apologists. He's debated Michael Kona. He's debated William Lane Craig and a host of others. Very savvy and smart, by the way, in terms of what you did is. Really nice guy, too.

Super kind guy. It doesn't surprise me. It was a met him on accident. So one of our students. So I'll share a little bit more about our ministry, but we have, we're training apologists left and the right. So one of our apologists, he's, he was learning with us, and he lives in Toronto, and he was outside of Shabir Ali's mosque, but he didn't know. And he was giving the people out there, they had Dawa tables. Dawa is a word for evangelizing in their version.

He was giving them so much trouble that they were like, all right, like, I think this would be a great fit to talk to Shabir. So he calls me up, and me and my friend Pavell, we go too. We're staying there for like two hours. And I give him, I do the entire methodology that I just laid out for you with these specific things. And again, I don't like to be like, oh, like he had no answer. He was running. No. But the truth is he kept diverting to the New Testament, diverting to textual criticism of the New Testament, diverting to the Trinity.

He didn't want to talk about it. And so for me, that tells me he doesn't have an answer. So again, he wasn't like, oh, I don't know. You're right. But multiple times, two times. He says, okay, let's just say, let's just say Islam is. wrong and the Quran the Quran is not the word of God. Now explain this. So that two times, two times. That's amazing. So am I saying he, no, I'm not saying like I cooked him

or anything, but he definitely didn't have answer. So there could be some other scarly people that have engaged this in journals you haven't looked into, but one of the lean apologists kind of conceded and pivoted. Well, the best thing he had was a documentary hypothesis, which is not even compatible with Islam because the Islam calls, the Quran calls the Torah a Khatab. Ketab means the book or the writing. And it says the Katab given to Moses, a book given to Moses. So that's not compatible with documentary hypothesis. So I'm not really sure why he brought it up.

And I should have pressed him on it, but I didn't. Because at that point, there was, he just wanted to talk about the New Testament. But I will say, diverting from the channel. He was, he was. So I will say one thing. Some stories of the Muslims who have come to Christ through our ministry, one of them, she was very, very devout. And she had been wrestling for years. So she's very honest, very intellectually honest,

and she couldn't let it go. And so she looked online for articles and the one article she could find to refute us. We had already studied it, and we already built it into our thing. It was amazing. And then she booked a team with Yasur Kadi's team. So he has like a team,

and he's also another well-known Muslim scholar. And they couldn't give her an answer. After an hour, their answer to her was, hey, stop asking these questions, just trust in Allah. So what we do with this, we don't go for low-hanging fruit, the unpersuasive stuff. You know, we go for the head.

If you can deconstruct the head, if you can take down the head, then everything else on the bottom doesn't matter. So we're engaging, like, the highest level of scholarship right now. And, yeah, there's other others that we get into room with where we test these on them all the time. And I won't say the names now, but we're constantly gathering data and doing research. And it's just, it's been amazing. I love it. So back to Scottie's question about how you bridged into the New Testament.

Yes. So that would be the reconstruction, right? I will say the bulk of the work is going to be getting rid of this because anything that is keeping them away from the gospel, for example, saying that the trainee doesn't make sense or there's no blood atonement. It's all taught in this. Without this, then there's no reason to not believe those things with an unbiased mindset. So how we do it is we say, I will add, it takes a lot, right? So the pebble analogy, there's a plastic bag. and every story is a pebble. There's a pebble, pebble, pebble, pebble, it takes many pebbles for the bag to actually break. And different Muslims have different capacities of when this bag will burst. But at that point in time, I say, okay, can we leave the Quran behind us? And can I actually show you what the Torah actually says? That's a transition. And so we still don't start with the New Testament because I always say, listen, you guys love movies?

When you watch a movie, you start at the last five minutes of it? Generally not. Could you imagine? Like, just go for the last five minutes of Doomsday. Yeah, that would be... Can't do it. No, there's zero chance. So that's how I feel when...

I mean, honestly, Christians and Muslims both. Like, they always want to run to the New Testament first. Like, let's start with the Torah. So we lay the foundations of the gospel from the Torah first. Because we just used a Torah to deconstruct. We should use it to reconstruct. So we already touched on this. But first, we established doctrine of original sin.

See, the Christians didn't make this up. Death clearly entered in Genesis 3. It's very clear. The ground was cursed. Is the ground Adam? So I get resistance sometimes. And it's like, well, it doesn't say, that the earth was cursed. Some, some guy said

that since it said ground, it doesn't mean earth. And I was like, the Hebrew means the same. He's like, no. Okay. Anyways. So, but we clearly lay out Dr. Aboriginal sin. Then we lay out blood atonement. But I always use the example of the animal being killed

because we show, this isn't the first pages of the Torah. The Christians didn't come along and invent this years later. And then go through some verses in the Leviticus where it talks about the life is in the blood and it's a life for life. Then Theophanes, I spent a little bit time in here because you have to get into their brain

that God from the beginning had already been walking with humans, walking with Adam and Eve, eating with Abraham. You need a mouth and you need a body to be eating. He had been standing with Samuel. The word of the Lord touched Jeremiah's mouth. So we kind of lay all these examples out and say... Sorry, when you say eating with Abraham, we're talking about the visitors in Genesis 18. Yes.

And one is described as Yahweh. the visitors. Okay. That's right. And so we use these examples. And again, this takes a lot of time, right? This is hours and hours of time with them. It's the most rewarding thing.

And, yeah, so we laid it out because we have to get into the heads that the Christians didn't make this up. And you know what's really interesting? If there is a corruption claim on the Torah, it would be, oh, the Jews corrupted it, right? That's what they would say. But the Jews, do they believe in theophanes? No. Well, they won't, they'll deny it. So the rabbis try to explain it away.

So why do they add it into their scriptures? Do the Jews believe in original sin? No. So why did they add it into their scriptures? Oh, they'll say law was, the Bible was corrupted because prophets, they think law is a prophet. Because prophets like law and David did terrible things, like slept with his daughters and committed adultery and rape. Okay. What was the motive behind that? Oh, so that they could do it too.

What does the Ten Commandments say about murder and rape and adultery? I mean, murder and adultery? Okay, yeah, that's good. So they corrupted the implicit story about that commandment, but they left explicit command? Oh, okay. Hold on. What do the rabbis believe about the patriots and prophets? They try to whitewash.

If you read the Talmud and the Midrash, they try to explain away their sins. They try to excuse the sins of Abraham and David. And so they don't really believe that the prophets are very sinful, so why would they add those in? And so when you start to press those things, it starts to come together. But anyways, back to this. And then finally, after I laid those three things out, now we prepare the way for Isaiah 53. And so when you haven't read Isaiah 53, I'm like going to cry thinking about it. It's the most beautiful thing watching them read it.

And I never tell them what it is yet. I said, who is that about? It's like, well, obviously Jesus. I was like, okay. Where do you think that is? And he's like, oh, it's probably the New Testament around. I was like, no, this is hundreds of years before Jesus. And that is, I'm getting emotional thinking about it right now.

but it's the most beautiful thing to just see their eyes, the veil just lift off. And I've been in meetings where the Muslim is crying at this passage. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. And we're both crying. And so we do that. And at that point, the gospel lands easily. Romans road, boom. And it's just, it's so rewarding.

It's so beautiful. And this is what the labor is to me. This is the labor, sitting down either on a Google meeting or in person for hours and hours. And it's what brings me joy. And that, in my opinion, is how you lead a Muslim to Christ. Unbelievable. That was really impressive. I've not heard somebody approach it quite that way.

It's very thoughtful in the way that you do it. I mean, I have other questions about Islam, but I have some... You came to Biola for, like, a semester, and you're like... Almost. Self-study learning this kind of stuff. One of my concerns for young influencers, and Scotty and I have talked about this a lot, is that I'm glad as far as I know, nobody recorded any talks I gave in my 20s.

I would have been rightly canceled. Sometimes I look back, I'm like, what was I thinking? Like, that just made sense, and I preached it, and that was just like, what was I doing? And so for me, in some ways, like I taught for 10 years in a high school where nobody cared who I was, didn't have a platform, like that developed over time,

and in some ways resisted that. now the two of you at 21 and 22 have a big platform and you're thrown out there really quickly what what safeguards do you maybe build into your life just to protect yourself in the long run from Satan's attack because frankly i think satan's biggest lie is Islam yeah it has led more people away from the grace of god and the character of god than anything else And so we got this 21-year-old come along. Your target number one, maybe target number two. So spiritually and intellectually and personally,

what safeguards do you build into your life, given that there's just so many temptations out there in the age in which we live? Yeah, that's a great question. I think I'm very lucky to have had a two years of a foundation and discipleship. I think that the timing of my ministry blowing up online was very, very fitting. And like a few months before,

it would have been premature, quote unquote, fame or premature responsibility. So for the longest time, it was just me and the Word of God. I didn't really get into apologics too much, not so much. And then it was also a lot of serving. I just served a lot,

and I got the heart of God for people of all cultures and places and demographics. And, you know, I would scrub toilets at the Wyoming base, and then I would also help lead worship at the Wyoming base, and both are equally important, that I was involved in a lot of Bible schools in Wyoming as well. And so I think that's really what gave me my foundation. And I'm so eternally grateful for them

because they teach inductive Bible study method. And so what they gave me was tools to know how to study my word. And I stay rooted in my word. I'm not the most perfect person at it, especially because there's so much to do and read and watch. But I do set time apart to just stay rooted in the Word of God. honestly the most important book for apologetics is the Bible. Amen. And I can see and I can tell that a lot of online apologists, not just apologies, but also influencers, they're not very biblically literate. And

there's levels to it, right? I'm probably far from yourself, but then there's also others that... You're pretty impressive, but keep going. Praise God. But I think that it is so vital. And I think what's made my apologetics journey so awesome is literally the Bible. I eat, I ate slept and breathe the word of God for nine months total in my time in Wyoming because I did three three month five-months schools with them and they do very intense intense Bible studying and and teaching and so I think that's what really strengthens me and also I one thing that I always that one of the biggest revelations I had in YWM is when I did this three-month leadership school and if there's one thing I took away from it is that your character will always be more important than your caliber and that's

not something I really understood. I understood it then, maybe here, but I'm seeing it more now. I think the way you love people, the way you serve, is so much more important than how much you can actually bring to the table. If anything, I think that's the most you can bring to the table.

And I think in my life I've often forgot to just see the person in front of me and just love them. I'm not even talking about, like, in an evangelism setting. I'm talking about even the people I serve with, even my friend who just needs me to, maybe a frustrating friend who was really testing my patience, my humility. I'm like, okay, if I cannot,

if I cannot be humble here behind closed doors, then there's no reason for me to scream Christ in front of a camera. And that's something with the nature of what we do, I think it's very easy to live a quote-called double life where no, but none of your followers will ever suspect if you're harboring anger against someone or unforgiving someone. And anger and unforgiveness is something I struggle with. And so I'm constantly being like, God, check my heart, check my heart, check a heart. And I think being before I do anything is actually going to make my doing better. I don't know if that makes sense. It does. Just being loved, making sure my heart is sanctified before God, before any cameras, before any, any type of leadership, that's going to make the night and day difference.

And, well, that's the funny thing. What I found is it doesn't always make the night and day difference, at least short term, because I've not only, I've not been in this for very long, where I can still see God blessing the fruit of my ministry, even on my worst weeks of not. not being living very sanctified and just, you know, having a hard week in terms of maybe sometimes even holiness or just my time with God. But I'm like, but he's not putting a pause on that. And so that almost worries me because I'm like, long term, maybe it'll affect it. But I'm like, Lord, please keep my heart right because I don't want any of that if I don't

have, if my heart isn't here. I've done this long enough. Okay. To know that a lot of people start strong and don't finish well. A lot of people. and I've seen deconstruction from pastors, some apologists, deconstruction in the way that you used it, not somebody reforming their faith, but rejecting it, musicians.

And there's oftentimes a lot of factors of people that want, and these are just some of the common factors. People didn't feel freedom to ask questions. People were not rooted in a church, didn't have a mentor in their life, and frankly, love the applause and the platform, and wanted the love of people and haven't read Luke, where Luke is like, everybody loves Jesus

until he speaks truth to him, and they turn on them. There's not a fear of the Lord first. So I love that you've been staying in our family a few days. McDalys, absolutely love you. We are here for you, thrilled at what you're doing. Thank you, Sean. Just take it day by day and trust in the Lord and get in the scriptures. I don't have a lot of regrets in my life,

but in some ways I was thinking recently turned 50. I was like, there's probably a third of all the books that I read. I could just throw in the trash and have just read Romans 50 more times or Ezekiel 60 more times. Like, why did I even read that? That was a waste of time. And it's not a regret. I mean, it's just the way it is. But what you said about being in the word absolutely unmistakably.

I'm not saying this to brag at all, but I was up at 4.30 this morning in the word learning it and studying it. I want to know it more deeply than ever. And that's my heart for both of you and for the next generation to know. know the scriptures. You love what you do, don't you? Oh yeah. Why? The right answer would be like seeing the Muslims come to Christ. But I think that, you know what? I think it is. Well, the Bible school answer is because I'm a good and faithful servant and I just love preaching the gospel. But I think I love what I do because, hold on, I don't want to ramble here. So like, give me like 10 seconds to answer you. Okay, I got it. So I think it,

It is very redemptive of the good traits that I had. When I had to lay my life down for Jesus, I gave up my career of wanting to be a lawyer. I also wanted to join the FBI. But I just love... You've been good at both, I can tell. I love arguing and talking and using my brain. I love learning.

I just love it so much. I also used to be big in politics as well. And so I laid that all down, not because I thought it was bad, but because it was so tied to my old identity. So I was like, well, God's not really going to use those skills anymore. And I think I love what I do because I see all the things

I thought had to leave behind, but he's redeemed every single one of those, quote, quote, skills and gifts that I had to glorify his kingdom. And that is why I love what I do. And honestly, just the Muslims that I'm discipling, it just brings me so much. It gets frustrating sometimes, and there's times where, you know,

you put in all that work and it actually doesn't end up coming to fruition. But for the ones that do, every other one has been worth it. And so. And here's the deal. You never know. And I was teaching high school. I had a student come to me.

And he goes, Mr. McDowell, what do I have to do to get a C-minus in your class? Which he didn't mean it. But it basically means, I don't care about your class. I just need the minimal grade to get my driver's license. He left. I can't remember. I told him what he needed. Came back to the next year.

He's like, can I sit in your class? I was like, sure. But you're Mr. C-minus. Why do you want to sit in my class? He goes, now I'm at a local JC and I'm getting challenged and I realize this stuff is important. And I said, well, is there anything I could have done to help? you get it then what you see now he goes no but i'll never forget it he goes but you're making more of a difference than you realize your job is to be faithful you don't know what's in somebody's heart and how

god might bring it back in five 10 20 years well done my good and faithful servant that is so freeing for me as apologist when i preach i can't change somebody's heart i can't even get him to clean his room like i can't change anybody's heart but i can be faithful with the gifts and the calling that god has on my life. Last question for me, you might have some Scotty. One of the, I mean, your story is just compelling, but there's some people, both your age that listen to this podcast and track, but there's a number of people 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s and plus who watch this. What would you want them to know about your generation, about your ministry, how things

are changed, how they can pray for you? What would you want the older generation to know? Because things are not the way they used to be. And sometimes it's maybe hard to accept that. But how can we come around and support people like you doing the kind of work you describe? Yeah, I would say for one, the ones who do have children, I would say to really disciple them into biblical literacy. And it's honestly, don't expect making your children going to church every Sunday to be discipleship.

It's not. And I would say allow your children to ask questions and be ready to answer. I wish my parents had done that and I love them to death but that's one of the things I wish I think it would have saved me a lot of time and trouble truthfully and definitely be praying over our generation and championing us

is huge offering your mentorship offering resources and just speaking words of life into our generation we are a generation that is deeply insecure deeply self-doubtful or swings the other way into pride and ego and ignorance and so just speaking words of life into us and just being here to to champion champion us to, to, I guess, take the reins. I mean, social media is a powerful, powerful, powerful tool.

And I think it is quite literally the Gutenberg press of today. And so I think not diminishing the passion of our generation and just putting them as high up and supporting us as much as possible, letting us stand on your shoulders. There's a lot of critique of Gen Z and millennials. They're lazy and entitled. And, you know, the two of you are clearly putting that claim. to shame and showing it's not remotely true. So if there's any older generations watching this, you should be encouraged about the younger generation and pray for them, support your ministry.

Scott, did I miss anything in your last questions or comments? This is great. Can I say a little bit about our online ministry? Please, yeah, do it. Yeah, so if you want to learn devout apologetics to reach the most, most devout Muslims, the link is actually on my website, belloo ministries.com,

and it's going to lead you into, okay, B-E-L-L-L-E-L-U. ministries dot com and that link is going to take you to our online school called Christ Underground and we have about 18,000 members

online working but learning with us right now and we have local teams all over the place I myself will be planning the local team in London in a month and so we have in person events we have online I teach on there my amazing mentors Alex Cremley

and Greg Armstrong also teach also this was I'm co-founding this with Sharra Khan He started this whole thing. He's an ex-musul. Go check out his stuff as well. And you guys should totally have him on as well to talk about it. Amazing.

Send me his stuff and we'll take a look at it. Well done. Super proud of you. Honor to have you on. This has been a treat. Awesome. Thank you, Sean. This is Chris Christensen.

And back in 2006, I started a simple project. A project to try and introduce more people to the Bible through Bible study called the Bible study podcast. It's a simple name and a simple idea. Each week, every week, we study one chapter of the Bible, talk about what it says and what that might mean for us today. To listen now, go to life audio.com or search for the Bible Study podcast on your favorite podcast app.