The Sean McDowell Show - The Most Eye-Opening Book on Porn Culture? | “Pormocracy” Review

Episode Date: February 13, 2026

"Pornocracy" is one of the most disturbing books I've read in some time, and it’s written from a secular perspective. With my co-host Dr. Scott Rae, we explore the authors’ case that pornography is no longer just “personal entertainment,” but a force reshaping everything from sexual expectations to violence, tech, and society itself. Viewer discretion advised. READ: Chasing Love: Sex, Love and Relationships In A Confused Culture, by Sean McDowell (https://amzn.to/4agHhL5) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [smdcertdisc] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

Most marriages aren't falling apart. They're being refined. Tried and True is a scripture-based marriage guide for couples who want a resilient, faith-filled marriage, especially in seasons that feel ordinary, difficult, or stretched. Through 12 and perfect biblical marriages, this book shows how God uses trials to strengthen connection, not destroy it. Learn more at Tridenttrue Marriagebook.com or find Tride and True everywhere books are sold. Life Audio. Let's be clear about this. A lot of the stuff that we've talked about being big issues today, maybe this is our bad, but we generally, when we cite the list of those issues, we've not included pornography. It seeps into all these other issues that concern us. The divorce epidemic shaped by pornography. Self-image and depression and loneliness shaped by pornography.

Social media. by pornography. The number one way kids are learning about sex is through porn. Talk to your kids through. The book we are going to discuss today is one of the most disturbing and heartbreaking accounts I've read in a long time. Listen or watch before you have kids present. Why? Well, we're to talk about a book called pornography, and what's unique about it is it's written from two UK writers from a secular perspective, a critique of pornography, arguing its affected relationships, the brain, the law, and quite literally everyone and everything in society in some fashion. Scott, what's your general takeaway from reading this book before we get into some of the

particulars? Well, Sean, honestly, I vacillated between being terrified and being nauseated. Those were my two takeaway reactions. And what they're describing in this is not only the phenomena of pornography, but the industry behind it. And what a huge economic enterprise this is. And how it's influenced the law, how it's influenced the way our brains are wired, how it's influenced the way it affects our relationships,

and how it's impacted, for the most part, hugely negatively, the lives of the people who have been victimized by it. I mean, it is an incredibly disturbing look at what some people still think is harmless entertainment. And, Sean, you just can't hold that view. That is just not a plausible view of pornography after reading this. I think that's really well said, because for a long time it was conservatives.

Maybe it was Protestants, Catholics, evangelicals. Some would say Puritans. Yeah, Puritans from within a religious fold. But we've come full circle now where you see in this book many, in particular two secular writers and thinkers, making some of the same kind of critique that you and I and others have made. Now, what's not in this book is the hopeful positive vision of sexuality. because God is totally absent. We'll come to that.

But as far as the critique, it was chilling. There was a few times I almost put the book down and was like, do I even want to read this? And it's not salacious. The reason is they're like, we're going to give you a sense as best we can of the ubiquity of pornography, the effects of pornography, the kinds of pornography. And a couple of times I stopped. I'm like, not only do I not want to watch this, I don't even want in my mind and my brain what's happening.

but I felt obligated to because I think many of us want to pretend this issue's not there. If they're right, and I suspect they're right about a lot of what they say, we need to wake up. So, John, what do you think is the main thesis of the book? What's the heart of this that the authors are really getting at? So in 2006, there was a book written by a journalist by name of Pamela Paul, and she called it pornified. So in 2006, we're roughly a decade into pornography being available on the internet. It's the start of social media. Obviously, there's no AI.

And a decade or so into this, she's saying pornography has infiltrated our society. It's become pornified. Pernocracy is playing off the termocracy like democracy or aristocracy, is that it's not just affecting our culture. It's actually shaping and directing our culture by certain power players in the porn industry in a way we haven't seen in the past. So they start off in the introduction by saying pornography, it's a noun. It's a society in which political power, culture, relationships, and identity are shaped or dominated by the purveyors of pornography. So the new angle here is kind of this law and the power that it's actually becoming not only normalized, but there's this kind of top-down political power at play pushing this in the name of liberty and freedom in a way that they say is just wrecking our society.

Now, in some ways, we'll come back to more of what that is. But let me read one thing that they say here. She says like two of them say generations raised with smartphones. have now viewed scenes of rape, choking, and incest before experiencing their first real-life kiss. I mean, just how does that affect the brain? How does that affect your expectations? And some of the lines they say, I'm like, these are biblical critiques minus the biblical theology. She says, over nearly three decades, online porn has trained the mind to see women not as persons,

but as costumes to be worn, rolls to be assumed, this dehumanization cuts deep. Exactly. And so here's the way in the intro, I'll just kind of read to frame this hopefully well. They say this is the pornography. Ancient patriarchal scripts rebooted for the digital age. Spy cams, nudifying apps, which you and I have talked about in our cultural update. Just recently. The theft of intimate images have transformed every woman's existence into sexual entertainment,

reducing her to a commodity to be traded. Looming on the horizon is a future of relentless, sexualized surveillance where women and girls are shut out from public life altogether. If we continue to defend pornography as a matter of personal preference, and this is the autonomy that you and I have, talked about. The fate of women in the West may come out to resemble that of women living in theocracies. After all, our bodies are the same the world over, and the misogyny knows no borders. So not only is this a critique, it's kind of like a secular, prophetic book about how these changes in technology will lead us when it comes to girls and women. Now, they're not saying pornography as only a male phenomenon. And it's not a, it's not a distinctly

feminist critique either. Yeah, that's correct. That's an important point. It is because the authors, it's a man and a woman who are co-authoring this. That's exactly right, which is important, I think. So bottom line, they say, perhaps the greatest victory in porn's relentless rise to power is how it has become normalized. And the word they use is respectable, which even goes beyond a norm.

Shame has been inverted. everywhere from schools to teachers, government guidance to fashionable dinner party conversations. Those who criticize porn are sneered at as censorious, sex negative, or whorphobic. And I say, amen, it's about time. Conservatives Christians are not the only one saying this. And I'm happy to wear those labels. Because I think they're absolutely right about how pervasive it's become. And there's, Sean, there's just, there's no way around this.

And the free expression argument starts to just sound a little hollow when you see all of the implications that they describe here. So let's be clear about this. How big an issue would you say this is today as opposed to things like radical Islam, artificial intelligence, Christian nationalism, critical theory, you know, a lot of the stuff that we've talked about being big issues today, I mean, maybe this is our bad, but we generally, when we cite a list of those issues, we've not included pornography in that. And I think that's an oversight on our part, and this book has definitely corrected that,

in my view. So where would you put it on the list? So let me, I'm going to answer that, but let me just give a sense of how big it is. This book has some stats that I think frame it for us. So how big of an issue is this? I knew the stat nerd was going to come out here at some point. You know me well by eight years and 500 episodes. So one study they cite, which they say is dated, that global revenues for porn is about $97 billion more than the GDP of most nations on earth.

Most nations on earth, it's GDP. So later in the book, they bring out and they say just how normalized and even unremarkable looking at porn is. They say the porn industry's value is double that of Hollywood. It's double that. In 2020, the world's four largest pornography sites received nearly 11 billion visitors each month. Greater than the number of visitors to Amazon, LinkedIn, Netflix, Zoom, and eBay. combined. Now, the biggest site of them which they name, and I'm not going to name the porn site on this podcast, was named the third most, quote, socially impactful tech brand of the 21st

century. Those numbers in some ways tell the story in itself. Now, when we compare that to radical Islam and AI, like it's almost impossible to really rank them, but in terms of a belief system that more people are embracing, leading them away from Jesus, you can't think of something more than Islam, because it's way more influential than Christian nationalism, than any other competing narrative, progressive Christianity, fill in the blank, it's radical Islam. But when it comes to how big of an issue it is, it's hard for me to not place it in the top five and at least probably in the top three because I think it seeps into all these other issues that concern us. So larger questions about LGBTQ clearly shaped in many ways by pornography.

The divorce epidemic shaped by pornography. Self-image and depression and loneliness shaped by pornography. Social media shaped by pornography. Social media shaped by pornography. So it's not like a set of beliefs, like, again, Christian nationalism or radical Islam, but it's underlying influence. I think it's within the top three. Now, agree, disagree. Well, I'd add to that. One notion that used to be controversial that I don't think is anymore, and that is violence against women has been shaped by pornography. Now, that used to be controversial, and the pornography companies will vehemently deny that porn contributes to that. But as we get into more of this, Sean, some of the stuff we may have to be, we may have to use some euphemisms to describe some of this.

But I think it has radically changed the expectations, particularly of people who have sort of have grown up with some of the newer, types of porn that has become incredibly popular. And Sean, it raises, it just raises the virtue question for me. And what does this say about us as a culture that we are justifying and we are so attracted to these kinds of pornography that is, we'll get to, we'll get to some of the details on this in a minute. I would put it right at number two. Okay.

Behind radical Islam. I think that is, I think, is, I think, still the main threat, and particularly in radical Islam, maybe not so much in the West, but clearly in the developing world. You know, our folks who are on the mission field in the Middle East and especially in Africa, they will tell us that the two things that they worry about most in their churches are Islam and the prosperity gospel. Oh, that's interesting.

Both those are the two most important issues that their people face regularly. And by the way, if I could qualify this, it's not just radical Islam. If there's a belief system that more people believe leading them away from Jesus, it's any kind of Islam that denies the Trinity and the deity of Jesus. So for society, radical Islam, in terms of a belief system that's leading more people away from Jesus, it's any version of Islam, I would say. But that's a separate conversation. You put it number two, which is high and huge.

And before I read this, I wouldn't have. Oh, wow. I would have put it, you know, somewhat further down the list. Okay. But it's the new, it's what's new in pornography that has gotten me to that point. And you know what? I don't know the answer to this, but I wonder how many social ills, like take issues like poverty, so much driven by broken relationships, how much of those broken relationships, how much of those broken relationships,

relationships driven by pornography, sex trafficking, pornography. I don't know that anybody's really drawn this, but part of the point is that it has seeped into our society in so many ways we don't see, and hence is at least number three or number two, by issues of concerns. And I think that's precisely their point. That's exactly what their point is. So the chapter I thought that was the most impactful for me was the chapter, I think two or three entitled Not Your Granddad's Porn.

Yeah. So what do they describe as having changed from sort of, you know, the Playboy magazines that you used to keep in your attic? And, you know, the stuff that we used to call smut back, you know, a hundred years ago to what's being purveyed on the Internet and social media. today. Yeah, this chapter was jarring. And I almost, this was a hard one to read. Yeah, I almost put it down.

I was like, I don't even want this. Before we jump back in, let me tell you about a resource I think you will find genuinely helpful. Sightline Ministry, formerly Josh McDowell Ministry, is dedicated to cutting through cultural confusion so people can see Jesus clearly. And yes, in case you're wondering, that's my dad's ministry. And I respect the work that they're doing. Right now, Sightline is offering a free course on their new on-demand learning center,

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check out sitline ministry.org forward slash Sean. Check out why did God do that on sightline you today and get equipped to see God's goodness clearly. That's sitline ministry.org slash Sean. For my mind to be completely honest with you. But the big argument they make is that the real triumph of the pornography is respectability. And they say, for example, this is an example they give. It's even assumed a role in politics.

Democrat groups campaigning in the 2024 U.S. election paid for advertisements on pornography sites and warned that their opponents would restrict users' access. Now, one thing they don't point out is they're not being political in this book is in the 2024 Republican Convention. There was an only fan's creator who presented and spoke there. So this is not just one political party. Now, whether it's more in one political party than the other, I have no idea. But their point is just that it's seeping into so many different areas. Here's what they talk about, is they talk about how, for example, they say, how do we square the claim?

And this is back to your point about virtue, is that we're told it's wrong to shape people for using pornography. It's a human right. And here's their question. How do we square these claims of the fact that the world's most popular pornography platforms continue to host countless rape videos, child sex abuse material, and revenge porn? that's just a fact now we can pick on the people who are putting this on platforms but they're putting it on there because people are watching it and desiring it and so they point out three areas where they think this is not your granddad's porn and i'll do my best to brain this in a way that's respectable number one is sexual violence so they talk about this 2023

council free quality of women and men uh had they reviewed millions of videos on the biggest international pornography websites and found 90% featured verbal, physical, and sexual violence towards women. 90%. I'm not going to read the way that it describes them. It's so objectifying and dehumanizing and dealing with assault and sometimes torture, commonly showing up. On another study of 150,000 videos in the UK, they found one in eight titles,

shown to first-time visitors of mainstream porn sites describe sexual activity that constitutes sexual violence. So another estimate between 35 and 45% of scenes include at least one act of aggression. And by the way, women were the target 97% of the time. So it's also teaching certain roles of men and women and how to treat the opposite sex. So the first massive trend that's different,

they say from Playboy magazine is sexual violence. The second one, I did not see this coming, Scott, is in 2018, an article in a Squire magazine found that incest was the world's fastest growing porn category. Now, that's, what, do the math, seven years ago. I don't know if these are trends that come and go. I'm not tracking these trends. I really don't want to. But they make the point that it's common and it's normalized.

and what happens is we have this natural ick factor to kind of incest. And that's broken down. And they say watching decreasingly. Decreasingly, exactly. Watching incest porn doesn't mean you secretly want to sleep with your sister. What makes it compelling is the extremity itself, the thrill of crossing boundaries and violating taboos, which is the heart of what pornography does.

And then the third one, which is no surprise, is the barely legal category. of just thousands and thousands of videos titled Barely Legal Teen Category, and the age in the U.S. to be in a porn film is 18 years old, but all these sites have just code words that people can search for for barely legal. That's the shift three things we've seen in pornography. They point that is just disturbing. I'd add a fourth to it. It's just one line.

And as the filmed torture of human beings remains largely free from legal censure, choking, slapping, various forms of what we typically have called sadomasochism, you know, are now routine. And the danger in this, Sean, is that what struck me in this is that people who view this from a young, young age, start to expect that this is normal in their sexual relationships that they have. And the boys think it's, you know, everybody does this. And the girls think that this is what the boys want. And so we have, we have, what I would call it, it's created a category of willing victims,

which we've, which I don't think we've had much before. You know, we typically have said, you know, rape victims, it's non-consensual. Well, I mean, it may be bordering on that here. And so you can see where it's a little easier to see the justification for that. If consent is our own, autonomy and consent are our only moral values governing this, then there's nothing to stop this. and we need what we need I think what we have here

is a little dash of utilitarian thinking on a little dash of the consequences that are being produced by this and Sean I think most people I think today are not they're not aware of these consequences they're not aware of how normalized

this kind of extreme behavior has become and that's the that is just this incredible danger And I think, you know, I mean, I'm glad that I'm not raising a teenage girl today. And I'd be terrified if I was raising one in the U.K. from what they're describing. And the U.S. is, I don't think, any different than what's taking place in the U.K. I think that's true.

But I wish they had drawn out more the bankruptcy of a consent sexual ethic, which is what people have said as long as there's consent, than it's moral and it's justified and it's a matter of freedom. The point being it leads to these most dehumanizing, degrading kind of scenes, and people that are watching this can't tell who's acting, can't tell if this is real, shapes their brain, shapes their expectations, and leads to that. I think we should be fair, too, that there is a lot of this that is not consensual. That's right. Some of this, what they call U-D-C-U-D-C, U-D-C, U-S.

user-generated content is often done surreptitiously and posted, and that's the revenge porn that you're talking about. Almost all of that is done non-consensually. And it challenges our cultural notion of freedom, because this of all things is the epitome of the cultural notion of freedom to do whatever the heck you want instead of the freedom to do what you ought. and freedom that's constrained by virtue. This is freedom constrained by virtually nothing.

And not even the law is constraining this in a lot of the world. So that I think it just gives, it points out the lie, I think, in the worldview that undergirds the justification for this kind of pornography. So either you justify it. as some people do, and porn companies increasingly say, we're monitoring this, it's a matter of freedom, or they say, oh, yeah, there's a problem with this, but then that shows the emptiness of the secular ethic and invites, are there norms about how we should treat people? Is there a purpose for the human body? Is there a right and is there wrong? Well, those are the only two choices

you have. Well, those norms sort of seep out here. They do. Without justification. Yeah, they don't say it directly. Epistemic justification. But, you know, decrying sexual violence tells you something about their moral compass. That's right. And, you know, they, you know, being a rape victim tells you, you know, they're not in the business of justifying sexual assault. And I still, I find it hard to believe, you know, as our colleague Bill Craig put it, anybody who tries to justify sexual assault needs a therapist. Right. Not an argument.

That's right. But I still find it. I'm having difficulty shown swallowing the notion that the porn companies are actually justifying these violent scenes of rape, the, you know, choking of women in under the guise of sexual expression. You know, the way women, the way women are, they're posted not just, not just the victim of sexual assault, but they're posted physical assault. They're posted on these things with black eyes and cuts on their faces. And people are looking for those kind of images within women. And so they do ask a question, how does this happen? And they're like, not by accident.

There was a plan here. It's driven by making money. But it's also controlled by men. The primary people who are running these porn companies are not women. it's men who get to see women treated the way they want to, they get money from it, and the women are really the victims of this. Although, you know, in some ways it brings us to the next... But part of the point they're making, too, is that women aren't the only victims.

That's correct. So I think it's fair to say that women are the main victims. And I think, you know, oh, I might say children are the main victims with this. but they're certainly not the only ones. And one of the things I think was so helpful in this is pointing out how men are victimized I think probably in many, if not most cases, without their knowledge.

I agree with that. So say a little bit more about who the victims are here. So I'm glad you transition to this because we're so affected by autonomy and freedoms doing what I want. There can be a temptation from Christians is say, well, somebody wants to be a porn star, they should have the right to do it, they made a choice. And I'd say, sex work.

Yeah, exactly. That's a fair way to put it, known as a porn star is the language that's used for it. So, yeah, somebody, we have culpability for our choices, but we don't see behind the curtain and how much people are damaged by this. So in the book, on page 12, it says in 2020, a group of 20 ex-porn performers, launched a campaign, urging the industry to raise the minimum age of participants from 18 to 21. In an open letter, The Women, so this is all women, listed a catalog of abusive practices inflicted by agents, producers, and directors, including being made to enact sadistic, pedophile fantasies, being rushed into signing consent forms, and being coerced into high-pressure situations to do sex acts, we've clearly said we will not. do. That's a huge piece of it here. Now what really saddens me about this, Scott, is they said here,

they said even before setting foot on a set, women in porn and indeed the sex industry as a whole are far more likely to have experienced sexual abuse than the wider population. Now, I'm not a psychologist, so I don't want to speak out of my expertise here, but they just kind of suggest here because part of it is like, why on earth, if somebody was sexually abused, would they go into an area like porn? Like you think they'd run the opposite direction. And they say a handful of testimonies from survivors suggest that for some viewing abuse is a way to make sense of what's happened to them. So they quote somebody saying a person who was abused from age seven, I turn to porn to normalize what was happening to me. Every time I'd go on the internet, I'd search for porn rape scenes to try.

try and convince myself that what was happening to me was okay. It reinforced in my mind that women were there to be used for sex, and at the end they always seemed to be like it anyways. This girl from age seven was horribly abused in the worst way imaginable. It doesn't know how to make sense of it. And porn at least gave her a sense of, oh, I'm not alone. This is normal. And it's people like this who were drawn into the porn industry.

So yes, they make a choice. but they're absolutely victims as well. And these porn producers are using them for money and for pleasure in the way that they describe in this book. And I think it's just disgusting. Before you leave that, it's a vicious cycle. Because take a step back, where did, where do child sexual abusers, you know, what's their exposure to pornography that leads them to abuse children?

I mean, overwhelmingly, there's that association. Now, granted, causation and correlation are not the same thing. Sure. But it produces that cycle that's a really hard one to break. Because, you know, I mean, people who treat serial, sexual... We've all been there. Reading a passage of the Bible and feeling more confused than when we started, it makes you wonder, is God really who I thought he was?

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Which is why, you know, in the past it motivated rather radical solutions, which I don't think either of us would support. But I think they recognize from early on. how difficult it is to break out of that. I think the reason why is the very next chapter is on the brain's role. When I speak on the effects of pornography, I talk how it affects our minds and the script that we have about love and sex and treating people, but also physically affects our brain and rewires our brains.

Exactly. So we're talking about how when we, and this story's been told a little bit, we've talked about this. Other books have written on this. but they say when we partake in substances or activity we enjoy, our brain secretes and intoxicating cocktails of hormones and chemical neurotransmitters that trigger a range of pleasurable sensations from satisfaction to bliss.

And when they're released, because it's a good feeling, we start creating pathways in the brain and then go back to those to feel well. It's natural to want to feel good. So they describe here, they say researchers have found the exact same kind of pathological learning in porn users as in drug addicts and an alcoholics. It's the same brain mechanisms, same brain pathways that are involved here. What they write though, which is interesting, I hadn't thought about this. Most worrying of all in what makes it so much more pernicious than drugs or alcohol,

pornography use is perceived by the consumer. It's perceived as a behavior with no punishment only reward. So when someone's drinking, they're like, well, if I have two, three, four more drinks, I'm going to have a hangover. In your mind, you don't think you're going to have a hangover. You're just going to be fine the next day. So some of the inhibition that might keep somebody from abusing that is gone. And then they describe how when it comes to like addictions with food,

your body can only have so much sugar and before you get physically sick. Internet pornography, which is processed by the brain as a high value sexual reward, is unconstrained by any limits. It's a never-ending procession of dishes. Now, with that, they ask a question. Go ahead. Yeah. Which, like any other addiction, takes more and more of it

to get the same neurological effect. Okay, so yes, and let me say no. Maybe we differ on this. Let me circle back to that. Hold that thought for a second. What they write here, they're asking, question they say do does looking at porn reflect desires or does it create and shape new desires and they argue and i think correctly that what draws people to pornography like in a drug

if you have a drug you want the same high you need a harder drug or greater quantity but when it comes to pornography it's variety that's what drives it i need something different i need a new experience. So somebody starts being driven to look at different things that give them the same shock high. Stuff on the extremes. It moves increasingly up the scale of more and more extreme, which is all available one click away. They say compulsive users are not only to seek greater quantity, but an ever-increasing variety of content. And this in turn shapes the brain. So they're not concern about this in the book and you and I would view this differently but they say one relatively benign example is for straight people to start consuming homosexual pornography so if you're a man

and you're looking at group sex all the sudden there's a homosexual element that's present in it and it starts to shape the brain and the mind of what's acceptable somebody gets pleasure from it and it can literally shape the script of somebody's brain. So they say here, they say, which is more concerning, was called child sexual abuse material, could watching that turn people into pedophiles. Now, they're not saying it's causative, but they're saying there's a strong link and connection. And they say what should trouble us is they actually argue that this happens at times. What should trouble us even more is that some of these men who are looking at pedophilic pornography, had said they had no interest in sexually with children before looking at porn.

That seems to be as clear-cut an example that not all, but at least some, and they say, bottom light, it doesn't just serve our sexual tastes. It shapes them. It shapes them. And that's because there's physical things taking place in the brain with reward pathways. So when this happens, you can't go back to just somebody in human flesh who doesn't look like they do in a porn film who's normal, and you destroy your ability to just respond to a human being in the present.

Well, that's a good, it's a good transition, I think, to how this affects relationships. And this, in my view, is the really damaging part of this, because it is rewiring our brains so that we are becoming less capable of appreciating and enjoying sexual relationships with a real person. And it's a little bit hypocritical, I think, a lot hypocritical of men, because most men who watch this stuff, they don't look like the born stars.

And so to expect that the women there with look like the women that they see, when they're not that way, at the least would be, gross hypocrisy. But I think the idea that this affects relationships, particularly among adolescents, that's the part shown that really got my attention.

Yeah, that's concerning. Because if they grow up watching this stuff on the extreme, which, you know, that stuff wasn't available until, you know, maybe just in the last 10 years. At least easily accessible available. Yeah, that's true. I agree. You know, if that, when that becomes normalized, then, you know, like we've said, the boys expect it, and the girls know that the boys want that.

And so it's part of pleasing the boy. And that all of a sudden has become normalized among adolescents. Exactly. And, you know, there's a lot of, Sean, you know, all the stuff that happens in adolescence. you know, that shapes the trajectory of where life goes. That's right. In some pretty influential ways. And I just, it's just so tragic to me to see increasingly adolescents being handicapped out of the gate from being able to enjoy, you know, what you and I would consider really good sexual relationships within marriage.

Handicapped is the right word, disadvantaged from the get-go because of this. and you know what things they point out is they say most kids if they're searching for it it's just out of curiosity but you misspell a word you're thrown onto a porn site there are people trying to hook kids actively early on you know interestingly early act about how you asked about how men are victims and on page 37 they say the truth is men are porn's victims too takes way their ability to enjoy fulfilling respect for relationships and programs them to react to what they see on screen rather than to value and find mutual pleasure with their partners. I couldn't have said it better myself.

I have that underlined too. I mean, you have that same one underline. I mean, it's just, so they say, on the next page, they say, for men and heterosexual relationships, personal pornography use has been linked with increased relational conflict, diminished female sexual desire, poor male positive communication and less overall satisfaction. Men's solo consumption of porn negatively impacts their females partners.

And guess what? Even if their partners don't know, that's the key. So what happens is somebody will come out of this and then it'll be made known. And then their partners will say, okay, now it actually makes sense. Now I can connect some dots. And they have some studies in here. I don't want to just believe studies that favor my view, but studies about divorce increasing because of that.

Link with infidelity. Yeah, like I think those, it's hard to show cause, but it's also hard to deny that that is a huge role driving infidelity. It's a factor. I'm not sure it's the causative one, but I think to deny that it's a factor, I think is putting your head in the sand. And here's an interesting point, Scott.

It's almost embarrassing that I didn't make this connection before because I've read and studied and talked on this. But they talk about, you know, your question was, how is it ruining relationships? And they say porn is killing young men's sexual performance. And so Swiss researchers found that 30% of males 18 to 24 suffer from some degree of impotence, 30%. In 2014, researchers at the University of Cambridge found 60% of me. men who use pornography, roughly 25 age, average age, experienced erectile dysfunction with sexual partners, but not with porn itself. So the problem, the way she frames it, I'm just going to read it, I don't know any other way

to frame this, they say the fact these lads leapt to attention when viewing sexual imagery, but not in the presence of real-life lovers, shows there's nothing wrong with. their penises. The problem lies in the mind and the problem lies in the brain. And I think that's exactly right. The problem is not that they don't have a libido that can be active. The problem is it's been so shaped by images online that it doesn't translate to a real partner. That distinction, I think is really important to bring out. Here's how they summarize this. I suspect you underline this too. Okay.

Porn users are losing the ability to be in the moment to be an intimate touch with their partner. I did underline that. Exactly right. And here's, they have unwittingly surrendered one of the most important attributes of a relationship, and one might well say of being human. So it's no surprise that partners suffer from their increasingly inhumane behavior. I think that's right. And again, this would, I mean, this would, you know, I'm glad I'm not raising daughters today.

Oh, man. Because, you know, I'm not exactly sure how to safeguard them from some of this stuff. Let's come back to some thoughts for parents. One of the questions that it's kind of surprised me for secular thinkers to bring up, Although when it comes to issues like critical theory and transgender ideology, there are a number of secular theories. Secular critics pushing back on this. There are certain strange bedfellows.

But this, I underline, I thought it was just fascinating on page 100. They said the very top of page 100. The underside of almost every trans coming out story is a pornified conception of what it is to be a woman. What is referred to as trans is a hypersexualized fantasy. It lures some males to identify as women and terrifies some females into identifying as male or non-binary. So they're not saying all of transgender individuals or generaus 40 is motivated by this, but it's a huge piece of this and it's contributed to it, sexualized views of what it means to be a woman.

and they refer to what they call heterosexual and bisexual autogynophilic men who are attracted to the fantasy of themselves as women. Well, in the past, somebody who had that could go talk with a counselor, share with somebody in their life. Now there's this whole world of people saying, that's normal, and here's porn you can look at. And it contributes, they say, to increased gender confusion. I think that's right, which goes back to our opening point.

that you take a range of issues and beneath it, there is a huge percentage of influence by pornography. So let me read this one. They say the consensus within the therapeutic profession is to destigmatize and lift the shame from what were once categorized as perversions. With poor graphic fuel and no social barriers, it is unsurprising this one niche behavior has become mainstream. And they talk about how much things like you say right here at present, there are nearly a million members of the trans porn subreddit, a discussion board. And that kind of pornography, if you struggle with that, you can find it. But it normalizes it and shapes you and shapes other people that are just looking for a variety.

And I think they're right about that. Yeah. Now, Sean, we've also, we've talked a lot about this already. So maybe just a comment or two about how they view this. but how are AI sex robots, things like that, you know, moving the pornographic ball forward? This is a really interesting question. And I wrote down a couple notes on this. I didn't want to miss.

But they introduced this idea of a new idea of sexual trauma. Sexual trauma. Now, I had an interaction some time ago with the young person who said, made a statement about how they had been assaulted online and were recovering from it. My first thought was like, assaulted online. Like, what is going on? Is this an excuse? Like, I just didn't understand what that means.

Just click away. As I read this, I was like, oh, my goodness, I really didn't understand what this meant. And so they give some examples here. They say new technologies like artificial intelligence, deep fakes and robotics are like the early web's nudity. and extremity of today's tube sites like YouTube, reshaping people's experience. So one kind of trauma is the kind of trauma of seeing your face

put onto their artificial intelligence as if it's you and other people watching that, even though it's not you. That's traumatic for an individual. That hasn't happened to me, and I pray the Lord it doesn't, but I can only imagine seeing that how jarring that would be. they give another example of a

where's a story in here about a girl here it is one day in 2021 a girl named Nina donned a virtual reality headset and stepped into the metaverse within 60 seconds she became the victim of virtual gang rape three or four male avatars with male voices pot at her

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I thought, oh my goodness, there's a whole level of trauma online, especially for a generation that's more online. They're comfortable online. We've basically introduced your artificial intelligence an entirely new means of traumatizing and harming people and having new victims, which is just ridiculous. Last thing I'll say about this. I was trying to think about, like, maybe porn 1.0 was when there was magazines and videos and hotel rooms.

Porn 2.0 is maybe when it's available on the internet. Porn 3.0 might be the introduction of, like, social media. porn 4.0 is like virtual reality and artificial intelligence because now they have what it's called like gonzo porn that it's done in a way that it's like you are a part of this and participating in it not just viewing it you're a part of it so it says you won't just watch but you become the actor itself and with artificial intelligence we talked about this a couple weeks ago online about how you can just plug in and create porn now through sites with your own ideas. So now people aren't only actors. Now people are creating. That's a whole new level of brokenness. I don't even know what that's going to mean for the future.

It doesn't take studios in the San Fernando Valley to produce this. That's why this user-generated content is, I think, a major step, you know, step toward more extreme stuff and step toward non-consensual stuff. And it also creates a kind of addiction to artificially intelligent created porn. It's just blurring reality and fiction. All right. We got time for one more question here. All right.

What do we do about this? I would say a few things. So two things. One, is they getting an example here of people calling out a certain porn website and a lady who's an activist, drawing attention to the number of videos that were loaded that were not carefully vetted that had like child sex abuse and pedophilia and in turn certain credit card companies

stopped working with them. I think there's an increased role for shame. Shame on these people. I'd love any of them. If you call me, I'll talk to you. I want you to look me in the eyes and say the porn you create in these sites, you'd be okay with your daughter and your wife,

and your granddaughter being a part of it. Look me in the eyes and tell me that. If not, shame on you because everybody who's on this site is somebody's daughter. Everybody who's on this site is somebody's grandson. So I think there's a role for shame. And this book made me a little bit more bold. I'm just going to call it out. Shame on them.

Second, talk to your kids early and build relationships with them. Talk to them, talk to them, talk to them. The number one way kids are learning about porn, I'm sorry, learn about sex is through porn. Talk to your kids early. Here, here, John, this is, I don't know, I don't know if I can recommend the book to everybody. I agree. It's not for everybody. It's not for the faint of heart on this.

It was, it's been quite an education for you and me. But I admit, it was, it was a real. really tough read. And I'm still not quite recovered from it. I agree. I kind of hope I don't have to read another book like this, but I feel like our viewers and listeners. I think we have an obligation to do that. Yeah. But this is, I just say, you know, I don't mind taking one for the team, but reading this was, this was taking a fastball to the ribs for the team. So for our viewers and listeners, I hope you found this helpful. I hope you haven't found it offensive or off. putting. We've just tried to represent reality here. But you need to know what the depth of the

industry is and how it's impacting adolescents, young people, how it's impacting the way our brains get rewired. This is all stuff that I think most people who are, you know, who are maybe casual, excuse me, casual viewers of porn. I'm not sure they've thought about. So we, we hope this has been helpful for you. This was a hard episode to do. I agree. So anyway, I think that's enough on this one. Enough said. All right. We'll see you next time. Hey, friends. If you enjoyed this show, please hit that follow button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning in haven't done this yet. And it makes a huge difference in helping us reach and equip more people and build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every review helps.

Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where we have on campus and online programs in apologetic, spiritual information, marriage and family, Bible, and so much more. We would love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and defend the Christian faith today. And we will see you when the next episode drops. Hey there, it's Nicole Eunice from the How to Study of the Bible podcast, and I'd love to invite you to join us as we weekly discover a passage of God's Word to. together, from beginning to end, from principles to practicals, we are here to make sure that God's word is powerful and relevant to your life. If that sounds like something you're looking for, I would love to invite you to subscribe. You can go to life audio.com and search how to study the Bible, and we'll see you there.