The Sean McDowell Show - The Rapture: What Is It and When Will It Happen?

Episode Date: July 7, 2026

Talbot New Testament scholar Dr. Alan Hultberg joins Sean McDowell to sort out what Scripture says, walk through the three major views, and ask the question everyone wants answered: are we close? Hultberg starts by clearing away the "Left Behind" imagery most of us absorbed from movies and kids' Bible storybooks, then lays out the three positions evangelicals actually debate explaining what separates them, how each handles the tribulation, Israel, and the timing of Christ's return. CHECK OUT: Logos Bible 60 Day Free Trial (https://logos.com/mcdowell) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [smdcertdisc] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) CHAPTERS 00:00 – The pop-culture rapture vs. the Bible 00:45 – Meet Dr. Alan Hultberg 01:06 – What is the rapture? (1 Thessalonians 4) 02:08 – Common misconceptions 04:15 – Is there even a debate that a rapture happens? 06:20 – View 1: Pre-tribulation 09:37 – Pre-trib, dispensationalism, and Israel 11:18 – Whatever happened to mid-tribulation? 11:41 – View 2: Pre-wrath 16:13 – Imminence: can there be signs? 18:32 – View 3: Post-tribulation 20:38 – How each view handles Israel 23:55 – The view Hultberg holds — and why 30:19 – The rapture through church history 33:48 – Where scholars land today 35:06 – Piecing together the whole end-times sequence 46:03 – "Newspaper in one hand, Bible in the other"? 48:33 – Signs and imminence, together 51:02 – Where to go deeper 52:42 – Closing thoughts   FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org   Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

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Escape the noise and worship now. Download the Air One app. Ask your smart speaker to play Air One or visit Air One.com. Air One. Worship now. Life Audio What are just some common misconceptions about the rapture? Paul says in 1st Thessalonians 15 that we will not all die, we will not all sleep, but we'll all be changed in the twinkling of an eye. So there's this instantaneous change glorification that occurs when Christ returns at the resurrection.

And so often in popular depictions of the rapture, you know, there's car crashes and a set of clothes. you know, sitting at an empty desk, things like that. It's possible that that kind of thing would happen. But what happens when there's this instantaneous change and people are caught up? I would just say, well, the Bible doesn't actually say that that's what's going to happen. That's more of a popular depiction on what happens at the rapture. What does the Bible actually teach about the rapture? Do we have any signs of when it may happen?

If so, what are they? And are we close? Back due to popular demand is Talbot New Testament professor, Dr. Allen, Holmberg, who specializes not only in the New Testament, but taught a lot of classes, and for years been studying the book of Revelation to make sense this for us. So thanks for coming back. Thank you. Let's just start off with what do we mean by the rapture? What is it? Yeah. The rapture is a doctrine that's taken from First Thessalonians 4. When Paul says that we will not all sleep or we will not all die before the coming of the Lord. But when the Lord comes,

those who have died in Christ will be resurrected, and we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the clouds. And thus we will always be with the Lord. And that language of being caught up into the clouds in Latin, it becomes the English word rapture. And so the rapture is the catching up of living and newly living resurrected saints at the return of Christ. We're going to get into some of the different views like pre-tribulationism and mid-trib, et cetera. Before we do so, what are just some common misconceptions about the rapture? capture. These say, let's clear these maybe from the air before we dive in. Yeah, I don't know if this is a misperception per se, but, you know, Paul says in 1st Thessalonians 15 that we will not all die. We

will not all sleep, but we'll all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. So there's this instantaneous change, glorification that occurs. when Christ returns at the resurrection. And so often in popular depictions of the rapture, you know, there's car crashes and a set of clothes, you know, sitting at an empty desk and things like that. It's possible that that kind of thing would happen, but, you know, the Bible doesn't say that. It's trying to speculate on what happens when there's this instant. instantaneous change and people are caught up.

Another would be, you know, you sort of see people floating up into the sky. Now, again, Jesus was caught up into the clouds at his ascension and the disciples, the apostles, were able to watch him being caught up into the clouds. And so it's possible that that will be, but it's, again, speculation. So, you know, anybody who might think that that's silly, I would just say, well, the Bible doesn't actually say that that's what's going to happen. That's more of a popular depiction on what happens at the rapture. Even pointing these out, I think, illustrates how much our idea of the rapture is framed by kids' Bible story books, movies that we've watched, maybe sermons that we've heard. And we don't always clearly delineate what is, you know, fiction.

and we're inventing what it might look like from what the Bible teaches. That's in part why we're going to do this, or we are doing this. Now, before we get in a debate about when the rapture may happen, is there a debate about whether or not there even is a rapture? And what would that debate be about? Yeah, there is, although usually the debate is whether there will be, and any moment rapture-like sort of is popularly depicted. Everybody agrees. Paul talks about something in First Thessalonians four.

What exactly is that? So some might say, well, that's kind of metaphorical for instantly going into the presence of Christ or something like that, as opposed to, floating up into the clouds. But the debate is kind of like more like, what does that look like? The other part of the debate is on the timing because those who are most committed to sort of the popular view of the rapture would place that sometime before. the actual return of Christ to Earth.

And most people who say there is no rapture, what they mean is there's no rapture like you're talking about it. It's just the return of Christ to Earth. And so if you would say, well, what is First Desolonians for talking about? They would just, they would say, okay, well, that's just the return of Christ and what happens to us at the return of Christ or something. So they don't like to use the term rapture usually for that. Okay.

Well, that's fair enough. And I think some of this will come out as we get into the different views. So let's start with one again, like we did with our other discussion in the millennium. No particular order. The first one will be pre-tribulationism. So what is that view? And what are some of the key passages maybe used to support it? Yeah.

So pre-tribulationism is called that because it says that the rapture occurs before the tributary. The tribulation in pre-tribulationism is the what's sometimes called the 70th week of Daniel. So in Daniel chapter 9, Daniel is told about the periodization of time in which God is going to fulfill his promises to Israel. and the first 69 weeks and so it's it's schematized as a period of 70 not literally weeks but 70 periods of 7 probably 70 year periods and and so 69 of them lead up to the coming of Messiah and the 70th the last of those 70s weeks has to do with the abomination of desolation and a great tribulation in which God's people are persecuted by an Antichrist. And they end with the coming of the son of man. And this is kind of taking other passages from Daniel and reading them into Daniel chapter 9. And so pre-tribulationists

would say, I mean, yeah, pre-tribulationists would say, the rapture occurs at the beginning of that 70th week, that last seven-year period of earthly, of this age, and then at the end of that 70th week, Christ returns with his saints to earth. They call that entire period the tribulation. So, the tribulation is equivalent or co-extensive with Daniel's 70th week. In the other views, that's not the case. Okay, good. So we'll come back to the other views. Pre-tribulation, I'm going to distinct this from like pre-millennial.

Pre-millennial is that Christ comes back before the millennial reign. Yes. Pre-tribulation is that Christ would remove believers from the tribulation period. And so we would not experience that tribulation period that's talked about in other parts of revelation. Yes. Yeah. They probably wouldn't say they'll be removed from the tribulation period, but that they will be removed before the tribulation period. Yeah.

Okay. So what's the difference from the tribulation as opposed to before? Because the others would say we will go into that period. The church will experience that period of time and be raptured out from the time. Oh, that time. Okay. Yeah. So I got it.

I see what the point is. All right. So how would pre-tribulationism fit into a larger eschatological framework? Yeah. Generally, well, so it would argue for premillennialism that when Christ returns, there will be an earthly kingdom. Pre-tribulationism is particularly top. to dispensationalism and especially classical dispensationalism. Within that view of the church and Israel and the end times,

God deals with Israel as His covenant people up to the coming of Christ, the first coming of Christ in the first century. Israel rejected Christ as its king, and now God is dealing with the church. And so the church forms the way it was said classically a parenthesis in God's dealing with Israel. The church needs to be taken out of the earth so that in the 70th week God can go back to dealing with Israel as his covenant people. And so that's a dispensational schema, distinguishing the church in Israel in pretty hard and fast terms in classical dispensationalism, and therefore requiring the church to be absent from earth in order for God to deal with Israel during the 70th week of Daniel. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Good. I don't know that there are any mid-tribulationists around any longer. Oh, really? Okay. That view has been supplanted by, or maybe modified or perfected, if you want to put it that way, by what's called pre-rath tribulation. So in this view, God pouring out his wrath on earth, which we get particularly

in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, Paul talks about God's wrath being poured out. In Revelation, we're told about God's wrath being poured out on the earth before the coming of Christ. They distinguish that period of God's wrath from the tribulation. The tribulation is the period of time that the Antichrist persecutes the people of God. in Daniel where he persecutes Israel and in Revelation where he persecutes the church. And we can imagine the Antichrist persecutes anybody who is opposed to the worship of Antichrist. So that'd probably also be faithful Muslims or anybody else, you know. Could be atheists or something, I don't know.

But the focus is on Israel and the church. So in the pre-rath view, the Antichrist is revealed halfway through the 70th week of Daniel, according to Revelation 9 and 2nd Thessalonians 2, and perhaps Matthew 24. And begins his persecution of the church after he reveals himself to the world and demands worldwide worship. That's a period of three and a half years at the end of that 70th week. And so pre-rath position agrees with a pre-tribulational position that the church will not experience God's wrath, according to First Thessalonians 5, for instance. And so they will experience persecution by Antichrist, but God will then rapture the church and then pour out his wrath on. on the world, on the kingdom of the beast.

And so it's like pre-tribulationism in that the church doesn't experience God's wrath. The rapture of the church precedes the return of Christ to earth to reign in a substantial period of time. But it disagrees with the pre-tribulation position in that the church will go into the tribulation and be rescued from the tribulation. So pre-tribulationism equates the wrath of God and the tribulation. Pre-rath view does not equate those two things.

So both protect from the wrath and what we tend to associate with the tribulation, although the pre-rath would say, no, they're into the tribulation. halfway. What if the world's hardest problems are really human stories waiting to be heard? Why do so many people struggle with mental health and silence? How does human trafficking actually happen?

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Ministry leaders in the front lines of refugee care, mental health, anti-human trafficking, and poverty, share real stories and biblical perspectives on some of today's most challenging issues. So in the church, we hide our mental health issues. We're feeding the shame that's keeping us separated. Healing happens in the context of community, and I think churches are spaces where we need that vulnerability. Search for Words of Life wherever you listen to podcasts, or visit Words of Lifepodcast. Ord through preserved from that wrath. So they share that in common. Yeah. And the reason it's not a mid-trib view, it says that the church will be on earth past the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.

But we don't know how far past the middle of the 70th week of Daniel, God begins to pour out his wrath on the earth. And so it could be 10 days past that. It could be two years past that. We don't know that. And so it's just called a pre-rath view. It's unlinked from the middle of the tribulation. The middle of the tribulation, what characterizes the middle of the tribulation is the abomination of desolation, what Paul calls the revelation of the man of sin in Second Thessalonians, too. So pre-trib, there's this sense of like Jesus could come back at any moment. Yeah. Raptors gone, clothes left behind his way is depicted.

tribulation begins in what used to be somewhat called mid-trib, even though there's differences, with a pre-rath view, which is around the middle of the tribulation, will people know that they're in the tribulation, will be obvious that these things are happening? Or do they differ over its obviousness? I would say they are at least should be able to know under this view. So let me back up for a second. Yeah, do it. The strongest evidence for a pre-tribulation rapture using the label pre-tribulation in the way that they want to use it is the fact that we won't know the day or hour

of the coming of Christ. And so in order to preserve that imminence, what's usually referred to as imminence, the imminence of the return of Christ or the imminence of the rapture, in order to preserve the absolute unknowableness of that, they have to say there are no signs, nothing can precede the coming of Christ or for the church. In pre-rath or mid-trib or also a third view, post-trib, the church will see the abomination of desolation and the rise of Antichrist and experienced the persecution that Antichrist pours out on the people of God. And so pre-tribulationists would say, look, if you can see those signs, then you know the

second coming of Christ is right around the corner. So it's not absolutely imminent. Now, I would argue that it doesn't have to be absolutely imminent, but that's kind of the strongest argument for pre-tribulationism. The difficulty is that Paul warns the church. They're going to see the abomination of desolation in Second Desolonians 2. Jesus warns the church, although people will argue whether he's warning the church or not, that they will see the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24. And so whatever imminence means, it has to be compatible with being able to recognize the abomination of desolation as well. Some would argue the abomination of desolation occurred in the first century when the Romans destroyed the temple. And therefore,

it has already happened. So now the rapture could happen at any time after that. Yeah. But generally, pre-tribulationists don't argue that way. So let's shift to the third one that you mentioned. Post-tribulationism, what is it? And what are some of the common past arguments people might make for it. Yeah. So post-tribulationism says the rapture occurs simultaneously with the return of Christ to earth at the end of, let's just say, Daniel's 70th week. At the end of, in this case, pre-rath and post-tribulationists all argue the tribulation is the period of time that the Antichrist is persecuting the church. So that persecution of the church will end with the return of Christ.

And so they just say the rapture happens at the exact same time. So the church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air and just immediately comes back down to earth with the Lord at his second coming. The same arguments that pre-rath scholars would make for the church entering the church, entering the tribulation and beginning to experience the persecution of Antichrist, are the exact same arguments post-tribulationists made. But post-terrelationists disagree with, and in this case they disagree both with pre-tribulationists and pre-rath rapturists, that there's any significant period of time between the rapture and the return of Christ to earth.

And they would just – generally they just argue that those events, you know, are not clearly separated anywhere in the New Testament, and that all the things associated with the return of Christ, like the resurrection, especially the resurrection of the saints, happen at the rapture, therefore the rapture must happen at the second coming of Christ. That's kind of the basic argument. Yeah. No, that's great. That's really helpful.

So on pre-trib, you mentioned Israel. Is that unique to pre-trib? Does pre-rath, post-tribulation, explain how Israel would play out in light of those three? Yeah. All three of them can maintain a future for the nation of Israel as God's covenant nation. The argument from pre-tribulationism is that it's a future. they don't usually say it this way, but this is what they mean. It's impossible for God to have both the church as a covenant people and Israel, the nation of Israel as a covenant people on earth

at the same time. And pre-rath and post-tribulationists can just say, why is that impossible? And because they're dealing, they're two different things. The church is not a national entity and Israel is a national entity. The church isn't a geopolitical entity, but Israel is. And I would argue that the church is related to Israel and the promises to Israel in a certain way that you can't easily just pull them apart the way a pre-tribulationist would want to do. So all of them can maintain a future for Israel. Usually, because post-tribulationism is kind of the, that's generally the most among scholars, the most widely accepted view.

Because it's the simplest view. You don't have to start having different sorts of events happening. It all just sort of happens at the return of Christ. So you can be, you don't have to be a pre-tribulationist. to be, you don't have to be a pre-millennialist in order to be a pre-tribulation. I'm sorry. Let's try this again. It is confusing.

You don't have to be a pre-millennialist. You don't have to believe that Jesus will establish an earthly reign after his return in order to be a post-tribulationist. In other words, you can be an all-millianist and just say, Jesus is reigning now from heaven. And when he returns, the living saints who will be caught up to meet him on his return, and then he's going to establish the new heavens and the new earth.

You could say the same thing for a post-millennialist. Jesus is reigning from heaven while the church subjugates all the nations in the world to his lordship. But when he returns, living saints will be caught up together with him. So post-tribulationism or a rapture that occurs simultaneous with the return of Christ can fit just about any position. Pre-rath, pre-trib, that generally goes more with pre-millennialism. Pre-millennialism.

Got it. Okay. That makes sense. I think you somewhat have answered this, but which one do you hold and why? What's your take? I hold to the pre-rath view. And on the one hand, because of Paul and Jesus warning the church or telling the church that they will see the abomination of desolation, and Jesus warning the church about the great tribulation that follows that in Matthew 24.

and John warning about that in Revelation 13 and et cetera. But Paul says the church will not experience the wrath of God in 1st Thessalonians 5. That can mean, and some people take it to mean, we won't experience his wrath at the Great White Throne judgment. but it's in a context in which he's arguing about the rapture of the church, 1st Thessalonians 4 and 5. And in 1st Thessalonians 1st, 1st Thessalonians 1, where he's talking about wrath being poured out on those who are persecuting the church. It seems to be he's not talking about Great White Throne wrath. He's talking about the kind of wrath that Revelation talks about. In Revelation, we have a depiction, in my opinion, of the church raptured in Revelation 7

when a multitude from every tribe and tongue and nation appears in heaven before the throne, and then God's wrath is poured out on the earth in the boldness. the trumpet judgments in Revelation 8 and 9. In Revelation 14, a similar thing happens. The Son of Man comes on the clouds and harvests the earth, and then God's wrath is poured out. Well, that's an image that comes from Jesus' teaching on his return in Matthew 24, for instance,

where the Son of Man will come and harvest the earth during this period of tribulation. In that case, he sends forth his angels to gather his elect. And so I think revelation makes clear the church is raptured before God's wrath is poured out, and that wrath is not, sometimes a post-tribulationist would say, yeah, all those things happen all at the same time. Jesus comes, returns, pours out God's wrath,

and the church is raptured. and I think how does that actually happen? I mean, is it all like one second of wrath, one second or is it all instantaneous or what? Because in Revelation, the period of wrath is a significant period of time.

The very least, you know, it says the locusts harm mankind, those who don't have the mark on their forehead, that God's mark on their forehead, harms them for a period of five months. And again, whether it's literally five months or not, it's certainly not instantaneous. It's some lengthy period of time.

And just the way those judgments are portrayed, even if they're not literally going to happen exactly the way they're depicted, but they suggest there's a period of, a long period of beast worshippers suffering God's wrath before the return of Christ. And so I think in Revelation 7, we have this. In Revelation 6, the Lamb takes the scroll, Revelation 5. He begins to open the seals in Revelation 6. And there are certain phenomena that occur as he opens the seals. When he opens the sixth seal, there are cosmic disturbances, things that happen in heaven. And the people on earth say to the mountains and the hills hide us because the great day of God's wrath and the wrath of the lamb has arrived.

And then, Revelation 7, it says, and now I'm going to paraphrase, but hold on a second, wait until we seal the servants of God on their forehead. and I heard the number of those sealed 144,000. Then I saw this great multitude in heaven from every tribe and tongue and nation. Then the seventh seal was broken and God's wrath was poured out on the earth. And so it seems to me John is saying, before God pours out his wrath, he will take the church to heaven and leave on earth this 144,000, which, I believe represents a believing remnant of Israel.

And if you want, you can ask why. Sure. But they stay on earth. And the same thing is sort of reiterated in Revelation 14 and perhaps Revelation 15, those who had come off victorious from the beast or standing in heaven before the bowl judgments are poured out. So three times over, as John goes over these events, there's a significant appearance of God's servants in heaven before he pours out his wrath. Seems like the existential concern for Christians would be pre-trib and pre-rath versus post-trib. Like, are we going to live through this terrible time or not?

whether or not we see the beginning of it and the abomination of desolation coming. That seems to be maybe one of the key dividing lines. Yes. But I would love to know, like, historically, when we talked about the millennium, you said, really the majority of the church pre, I think you said, Nicaea, was pre-millennial for the most. It was really Augustine. Now we're moving in like the fifth century who put all-millanism on the map, and that

dominated even through the reformers. and then today it's probably some split between pre-millennial and between a millennial and then a smaller would be post-millennial. Simplified, but that was the case. Can we break up? What if the world's hardest problems are really human stories waiting to be heard? Why do so many people struggle with mental health and silence? How does human trafficking actually happen?

What causes a family to flee their homeland? When I learn about the refugee crisis and why people, hopefully and why people have to leave their homelands. God just really shook me and he said, I want you to learn about this issue. In a special series from the Salvation Army's Words of Life podcast, ministry leaders in the front lines of refugee care, mental health, anti-human trafficking, and poverty share real stories and biblical perspectives on some of today's most challenging issues. So in the church, when we hide our mental health issues, we're feeding the shame that's key. being separated. Healing happens in the context of community, and I think churches are spaces where

we need that vulnerability. Search for Words of Life wherever you listen to podcasts or visit WordsofLifepodcast.org. History into that kind of like simple framework or is it much more convoluted when it comes to the tribulation? It's a little more difficult to determine exactly, but here's my reading on it. Okay. The early church was a post-tribulation. They expected the church to experience the tribulation and be raptured when Jesus returned. That held sway. There were dissenting voices into the early 19th century. So there's kind of a famous medieval pre-tribulationist was a Jesuit priest, not pre-tribulationist, but, well, let's just say pre-tribulationist, was a Jesuit priest.

Fiore, I can't remember his last name now. But pre-tribulationism really took off. among the Plymouth Brethren in England under the teaching of Nelson Darby, Charles Nelson Darby, and came to the United States in evangelistic efforts and things like that, and became the predominant view among baptistic and pietistic churches and and eventually then Pentecostal churches, et cetera. Still in mainline denominations, it didn't take hold. Now among evangelicals, that became sort of the dominant view and almost like the

the unexamined view for a while. there were in opposition to that still evangelicals who argued for post-tribulationism and then those who argued for mid-tribulationism. Mid-tribulationism has now more recently morphed into pre-rath rapturism. And so I would say pre-rath rapturism like mid-tribulationism is the minority view for sure. Among most evangelicals pre-tribulationism

is still the dominant view, but post-tribulationism is still also a dominant view. Is there a difference if we look at, because you're talking about kind of the culture, if we look in the scholarly world, in a sense of difference? In the scholarly world,

much more heavily lined up with post-tribulationism. Perhaps, well, pre-rath rapturism is growing and maybe is greater among New Testament scholars. Oh, okay. Pre-tribulationism is still held to by a number of scholars, but not most who work in eschatology. and especially among kind of old guard dispensational or connected to dispensationalism scholars.

So it's, I mean, I wouldn't know how to put percentages on any of that kind of stuff. But I would say, yeah, I would say pre-tribulationism has been questioned, whereas before it was sort of the unquestioned position, now it's been questioned. quite a lot more. That's fascinating. So if you'll lay out for us, we've had a conversation in the millennium, lay out for us kind of piece together. And I know there's so many nuances of this, how you see kind of the end times coming, like the big pieces.

Like where does the tribulation fit? Where is the Millennium fit? Where does the White throne or the Great Throne judgment fit? The return of Christ. Like just piece those big things together for us, if you will. Yeah. So I would say the first, probably the first event would be the movement back to God among the Jews. So interestingly, like in Israel today, Israel is a very secular nation today, even though there are, you know, Jews who.

maintain mosaic laws and you know, try to live in a covenant relationship with God. Most Jews don't. And, you know, similarly in the United States, there are a lot of Jews who are even atheistic or irreligious

celebrate Hanukkah and things like that, but not more culturally than faithfully. So I would say first we're going to see a movement of Israel to God or Jews toward God. There will be, and it's hard to determine exactly the sequence of these, a greater move of Israel back into the land of Israel,

perhaps even facilitated by the rise of a political figure who somehow makes it possible for that to happen. So I would imagine somehow, quote unquote, solves the Mideast crisis in the Mideast problem. I would say it also allows for a rebuilding of the temple to Yahweh in Jerusalem. him. Because this geopolitical figure, it says in Daniel, he makes a covenant with the many for one week. That's what starts the 70th week of Daniel. So somehow he's involved in guaranteeing Israel's right to the land.

And because there's going to be a temple that figures into the events, also Israel's right to build a temple. But three and a half years into that time period, give or take, again, in apocalyptic literature, I'm not going to quibble over the exact length of times, but into that time period, he will, according to Paul in 2nd Thessalonians 2, take his seat in the temple of God and proclaim himself as being God and demand worldwide worship in Revelation 13 as well. performing signs that, you know, Jesus said, if possible, would deceive even the very elect. So when you said, you know, will people recognize it some while back? And I said they should be able to recognize it because you'd think, here's some guy

proclaiming himself as being God and demanding worldwide worship. People with their eyes open would go, that's the anti-Christ, you know? Right, right. But it also says he performs deceptive signs to the end. extent they're so deceptive that they could even deceive the very elect. The elect, yeah. So most people in the world are going to just go along with things because he's so deceptive about it. So exactly, you know, how that plays out, I don't exactly know. But all I would say is a lot of people will be blind to what is going on and worship the beast.

That guy, after proclaiming himself as being God, will begin. to persecute anybody who doesn't worship him. That would be the beginning of the tribulation. Okay, so just to make sure I understand, the signs we would be looking for you, understand it is Israel returning back to the land in greater numbers. We've obviously seen that in 1947, 1948. Israel, more Jews believing in Jesus is still... Or at least being...

Being... believing in God and in their status before God. Okay, so not necessarily Messianic Jews. Not necessarily. That's an important distinction. Not necessarily. Okay. Yeah, the only reason I say that is because at the rapture of the church, the way I see it in Revelation 7 is when the 144,000 are sealed.

and we're told in Revelation 14, these follow the lamb, wherever he goes. And so these and the language and the imagery used for them. So sealing them on their forehead, that's imagery that comes out of Ezekiel 9 before the destruction of Jerusalem. God sends these angels throughout the population of Jerusalem. And everybody who worships Yahweh,

who isn't involved in idolatry, are given a seal, a mark on their foreheads. And then another angel goes through and he's told, kill everybody who doesn't have the mark on their forehead. So the numbering of these people, they're numbered, you know, they're explicitly numbered, right? John repeats this over and over again. 12,000 from the tribe of Rubin, 12,000 from the tribe of Judah,

etc. Makes a number of 144,000, which is clearly a symbolic number. But it suggests these are Messianic Jews who represent the remnant of Israel that's going to ensure the covenant promises to Israel, as Paul argues in Romans 9 to 11.

Anyway, they're going to stay on earth. But then this innumerable multitude from every tribe and tongue and nation. So they are distinguished from this explicitly numbered group from the tribes of Israel. They're distinguished from that. They're innumerable and they're from every tribe tongue and nation, which in Revelation 5 are those that the Lamb has redeemed. They appear in heaven. So the way I understand it is at the rapture of the church,

there will be a mass turning of Israel to Christ. And that will eventually, you know, be fulfilled in all of Israel, Paul says, at the return of Christ in Romans 9, Romans 11. Anyway, so some kind of turning to Christ among the Jews, and certainly at least a movement. toward God among the Jews. So Jews in the land, some movement towards God, were not yet at the return specifically towards Christ,

rebuilding the temple, Antichrist sets himself up to perform sacrifices, worship him as God, and then you're at the point where then the wrath begins, which is the tribulation. Keep going. Yeah, so the church is raptured. Then God's wrath is poured out on the,

on the kingdom of the beast, on the whole world that's worshipping the beast, we're told that those who have the mark will not experience God's wrath. But everyone who doesn't have the mark, who has the mark of the beast, in other words, you either have the mark of God and you don't experience his wrath or you have the mark of the beast and you do experience God's wrath. And then Jesus will return to, well, the nations are gathered for the, battle of Armageddon, which in the Old Testament is the eschatological battle occurs outside of Jerusalem as the nations come to conquer Jerusalem. And Zechariah 12, the Lord returns and defeats the

nations and establishes his kingdom in Revelation 14. And the nations, I mean in Zechariah 14. the nations come to Jerusalem to worship the Lord. So the nations gather against Israel. Jesus returns, defeats the nations and the beast, throws the beast in the false prophet and the lake of fire, reigns for a thousand years, I would argue premillenially from Jerusalem, over the nations.

At the end of which time Satan is released from his bondage and gathers the nations for a final, thrust. He is destroyed, thrown into the lake of fire. God raises everyone else from the dead and judges them. They're thrown into the lake of fire. If your name is found written in the book of life, you're not thrown into the lake of fire. And then is the new heavens and the new earth, depicted as the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven to earth so that heaven and earth merge. in the eternal state. God's presence is

among his people on earth and they live in rain forever in fulfillment of their original destiny, right? Adam and Eve created in order rain over the earth. Humanity lives that out

finally in the new heavens and the new earth. And then the cycle starts again. No, just kidding. What if the world's hardest problem? are really human stories waiting to be heard. Why do so many people struggle with mental health and silence? How does human trafficking actually happen?

What causes a family to flee their homeland? When I learn about the refugee crisis and why people flee and why people have to leave their homelands, God just really shook me and he said, I want you to learn about this issue. In a special series from the Salvation Army's Words of Life podcast, Ministry Leaders in the Frontlines of Refugee Care, Mental Health, anti-human trafficking and poverty, share real stories and biblical perspectives on some of today's most challenging issues. So in the church, we hide our mental health issues. We're feeding the shame that's keeping us separated. Healing happens in the context of community, and I think churches are

spaces where we need that vulnerability. Search for Words of Life wherever you listen to podcasts, or visit Words of Lifepodcast.org. Yeah, no, just plain. That would be, a whole different conversation we would have. Very well laid out. That was incredibly helpful. I appreciate you piecing together this way. So in these conversations, I've interviewed John Lennox twice. He's got a new book on Revelation. It's fascinating. We've done some of the shorter dives. Is your take on then people say we get a newspaper in one hand, you get the Bible and the other. This isn't kind of reading between the lines. They seem like pretty crystal clear signs. We've seen Israel back in the land, significant return in belief in God.

But again, it doesn't tell us like 25%. What is significant? 80%. But setting up the temple and offering sacrifices and claiming to be God, that seems for anybody who's paying attention, that's obviously a sign. Like, you can't miss that one. And I think that's exactly what Jesus says in Matthew 24. They're at the temple, right?

And the disciples say, man, isn't the temple impressive? It's a source of national pride for Israel and religious pride, right? We are the people of God, and this is Yahweh's temple where we worship Yahweh, carrying out our covenant obligations to God. And Jesus says, you know, well, I tell you, this temple is going to be destroyed. Not one stone is going to be standing upon another. And his disciples hear that as an eschatological event. Because in Daniel 9, that's exactly what it is, that the people of the prince to come will destroy the city and its sanctuary before the 70th week.

And so they say to him, well, when will these things be? And what is the sign of your coming in the end of the age? And Jesus begins to tell them things that they're going to see in the destruction of the temple. and he says, but the end is not yet. However, verse 15 of Matthew 24, when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, then flee because then

there will be the great tribulation such as never happened, quoting from Daniel 12.1. And then at the end of the tribulation of those days, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven and he will send forth his angels to gather his elect. So Jesus seems to say, look, you're going to see all kinds of things that look like the world's coming to the end. When you see the abomination of desolation, then you know things are, the end is, is, is quickly approaching. Okay. So on your view, if I

understand correctly, we should less be thinking any second, like in five seconds, Jesus could come back. It's soon and there's a quickness to his returning, but there's still, certain things that have to take place before the rapture and the tribulation itself. Yeah, that would be my view and the view of post-tribulationists as well. Okay. Yeah, and so we could say a couple of things. I don't, that stuff could happen tomorrow. Maybe tomorrow some, you know, let's, I'm, now I'm not saying Trump is the antichrist or anything, but, you know.

Let's say that, you know, there's this stuff going on in the Middle East. Let's say he brokers some sort of a deal that just solves the problem. That could happen tomorrow, which means, wow, we just started the 70th week of Daniel. It's also possible that a temple is built in Jerusalem, but it's there for a million years before the Antichrist. arrives and sets up, you know, and requires worship or something like that. So even if a temple is built, I don't still know whether that's the, you know, that's the thing. It's when the Antichrist declares himself as God and demands worldwide worship. Even then, I don't know

exactly when it's going to, you know, when Jesus is going to come or when the breath of God is going to be poured out. So I think I mentioned this once before, but I think of it this way, someone can say to me, I'm going to come to your house after 12. So I know when 12 o'clock hits on the clock, they're coming sometime, sometime soon. But I don't know if it's going to be 1201 or 430 in the afternoon or in the evening, you know. So there can be signs and still, that doesn't mean that therefore the rapture or the return of Christ is not still imminent or unknowable. Good stuff. I love that. Any last book maybe for somebody goes, all right, I want to understand these different views, formulate mine, or maybe one that captures how you see this. Besides having students come join us at Talos School Theology, which would be awesome.

We have classes on Daniel. You teach on Revelation. A really new one. wants and work through this. But is there a follow-up book that you would recommend that you think does a good job of laying these out? I mean, this is probably the, it's the best book on the subject and probably the best book I've ever read of any kind of book. I, I edited myself and contributed to it. No, there's a, there's a book, but I would recommend this book, because this is the point of the book. It's three views on the rapture. I'm the editor of the book and I argue for the pre-rath position. Doug Mu argues for the post-tribulational position and Craig Blazing argues for the pre-tribulational

position. And so we interact with one another. We each make our own argument and we also interact with the other person's arguments as well. And so it's a good book to be able to be able to. to get all the nuances. I love that. I pull it up. It just says,

three views on the rapture, pre-tribulation, pre-rath, or post-tribulation. Craig, blacing yourself, Alan Holberg, and Doug Moe,

really respectable, published New Testament scholars. I haven't read this one, but given the glowing endorsement you gave it, unbiased, I'm going to have to put it on my list. This is fun.

Folks, two things, number one. Think about joining us at Top School Theology. I've talked about this all the time. I love where we're at. There's so many exciting things happening in philosophy, apologetics, New Testament, marriage and family, online, and in person. And let me know. This is a little different than the

typical show that I do. If it'd be helpful to bring on some other scholars from Talbot to kind of do a deep dive on other theological issues that intersect with apologetics, but our cultural and theological, comment below let us know. And if there's a particular scholar in mind, you want me to bring on, let me know. We'll try to do that as well. for watching and thanks for coming back. Thank you. Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that follow button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning in haven't done this yet. And it makes a huge difference in helping us reach and equip more people and build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review.

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