The Sean McDowell Show - The Signs Are Clear: Why Jesus is Coming Soon!

Episode Date: July 3, 2026

Can we actually know Jesus is coming back or is this just a matter of blind faith? In this conversation, bestselling author and pastor John Bevere joins me to talk about his new book The King Is Coming. John makes for why Christians can have confidence that Jesus is returning, why he sees Israel's reestablishment in 1948 and the recapture of Jerusalem in 1967 as escatologically significant, his reading of the Hosea 6 timeline, his view on the rapture and the tribulation, and why he believes we're living in the generation that may see Christ's return. 00:00 Intro and the central question 01:51 Why John avoided this topic for four decades 06:33 How could a modern person believe Jesus returns in the clouds? 12:09 Have previous generations been wrong, and what makes this one different? 19:23 The biblical framework for John's view on the season of Christ's return 25:13 What the end-times sequence looks like — apostasy, revival, rapture, tribulation 28:30 The case for the pre-tribulation rapture 35:18 Why John waited 42 years to teach on this 41:42 Pastoral application — the wedding garment and being ready 49:48 Speculation on AI and end-times scenarios (conjecture) 55:21 Why the book has resonated with so many leaders CHECK OUT: Logos Bible 60 Day Free Trial (https://logos.com/mcdowell) READ: The King Is Coming: It's Time to Prepare for the Return of Christ by John Bevere (https://amzn.to/4vuexXk) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [smdcertdisc] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org   Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

Life Audio What confidence can we have that Jesus is really coming back in the future? I avoided this subject for four decades. I didn't want to say anything about it. Without a doubt, Jesus makes the statement in Matthew Chapter 24. He said, assuredly, I say to you, this generation will not pass until all these things come to pass. The thing that we know for sure is that no one, not even the angels of God or Jesus himself,

know the day in the hour. However, he said we would know the generation and we would know the season. But the bottom line, I think our confidence in the words of Jesus is that they've been translated accurately. Jesus is God. He's fulfilled prophecy. And he tells us he's coming back. So we better take that seriously. Can we know that Jesus is really coming back? Some would say this is just a matter of blind faith. Is there actually evidence or good reason we have to believe that that Jesus will return. And if so, how should we live in light of that? Our guest today is an expert on this topic.

He's got a super popular YouTube channel, but it has a book that just came out called The King Is Coming, and it's been literally blowing sales up. And I say that because, number one, it's a great book. But number two, I think this is a topic that people are particularly interested right now. John, thanks for coming on. Sean, it's a pleasure to be on with you.

And thank you so much for what you're doing for the body of Christ. Well, this is a topic I've been leaning into a little bit. I used to tell people for a while, you know, end times is not really my thing. But I've interviewed John Lennox. I saw your book that came up. And I thought, the king is coming.

I have a question for you. And my audience is going to want to know, what confidence can we have that Jesus is really coming back in the future? Can we know this? Or is it something we just believe by, quote, blind faith? Well, let me tell you this right up front. I avoided this subject for four decades. I didn't want to say anything about it. And it's probably because of this question you just asked. And I can get back to that later of why I avoided it. But without a doubt, Jesus makes this statement in Matthew chapter 24. He said, assuredly, I say to you, this generation will not pass until all these things come to pass. And he's speaking about three things in Matthew 24. First of all, when is all the stones going to be torn down on the temple? That happened in 70 AD with Titus of Rome.

What will be the signs of your second coming? And thirdly, what will be the signs of the end of the world? In speaking not about the stones being torn down and what Titus did, in speaking specifically about second coming appearing in the clouds in great glory. He said, this generation won't pass until all these things come to pass. Now, the thing that we know for sure is that no one, not even the angels of God or Jesus himself, know the day and the hour. However, he said we would know the generation and we would know the season. And if you look at his response to Jerusalem's ignorance of his first coming, he said, you're going to be trampled down by Gentiles because you did not know the time, the season of your visitation. With his first coming, you have the ascines. The ascines were people

that broke away from the mainstream Jerusalem leadership, not Jerusalem, excuse me, Israel leadership, because there was so much corruption. So they went out in the desert and they formed a community called Qumran. Most of your students should understand Qumran from the caves of Qumran. That's where we discovered the Dead Sea Scrolls. These people took the word of God seriously. 150 years before Jesus was born, they predicted to the exact week that Jesus would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey and he would be executed. How did they know this? They knew this through Daniel's prophecies and Zechariah's prophecies and other early church father, or excuse me, Jewish father's writings. Now, you look at these guys who were able to recognize right up to the week.

and there were certain things about them that gave them the ability to do it. Because if you look at 1st Peter 1, 10, 11, it says the prophets inquired and searched diligently about what manner and what manner of time Messiah would come on his first coming. Well, the Aesans did that too. If you look at a second coming, there's only one slight difference. We can't predict to the week. We can't predict to the day or hour. but we are told that we are expected to know the generation,

and we are in that generation, because no generation ever before has been able to say that after 1,800 years, God brought the Jews from every nation under heaven, brought them to Israel, and in 1967, they repossessed Jerusalem. So Jesus said they would be trampled or ruled by Jesus. Gentile countries until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

So we're living in a pretty exciting time, Sean. That's what I'm saying. I totally agree. So I was curious if you were going to go to the past in terms of what God has fulfilled to show and give us confidence of what he will do in the future. Because obviously we can't watch a movie of this happening, although if the book of Revelation is true and some of the teachers of Jesus are true, we kind of do have a preview of this.

But the bottom line, I think our confidence in the words of Jesus is that they've been translated accurately. Jesus is God. He's fulfilled prophecy. And he tells us he's coming back. So we better take that seriously. We're going to get to this a minute when you point towards Israel. You argue even in our lifetime in the 20th century, we've seen some of this take place. Now, before we get there, I have an apologetic channel, so I just have to ask you this. I know skeptics would say the whole idea of Jesus returning in the clouds is simply, unbelievable. In our scientific age, how can you expect me to believe that God is going to come down in these clouds in the way it's described in this book written a couple thousand years ago with a completely different pre-scientific worldview? Well, that is an excellent question.

If you look at Peter, he says in the last days, scoffers and mockers are going to rise up and say, where's the promise of his coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, everything remains the same is from creation. Well, first of all, atheists and agnostics don't call church fathers' fathers. Atheists and agnostics do not call creation, creation. They call it evolution. Peter's not talking about people that are outside of the church. He's talking about actually people inside of the church. And you know what their statements are going to be is, come on, this is ridiculous. But what Peter does is he said, they have forgotten. This is God who causes three million people to walk. across dry land on the bottom of an ocean floor and he caused walls of water to stand up as they

went through and crushed the most powerful military in the world. This is the same God whose scientists have proven with a 64-page document that sulfur balls, an explosion of sulfur, destroyed at over 6,000, or excuse me, 2,000 degrees Celsius, the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. This is the same God who caused a flood to come on the earth, of which we have discovered that very boat. And what these people don't realize is a day with the Lord's a thousand years and a thousand years is a day. So in other words, it's only been six days since God has done all these things I just spoke of. It's been in the last six days. In how heaven's timeline. If you look at a day, and this is what Peter said, but you beloved, don't forget

a day with the Lord's 1,000 years and 1,000 years is a day. Jesus talked about this, about coming in the clouds of glory. He talked about it so much, and the apostles wrote about it so much. It ends up being the second most talked about subject in the entire Bible. Only salvation trumps the second coming of Jesus. There's 300 prophecies about his first coming, and the people that took it serious got it right. There are over 2,400 prophecies about his second coming. Now, I've got an engineering mind. I was trained as an engineer at Purdue University, but I remember a very godly man who worked as an engineer for Del Helicopter, looked at me as a young man, said, young man, you better go from here to here. And I will never forget that as long as I live.

Lisa and I were engaged. We were going to him for marriage counseling. And I thought I was so smart. But what was going on is this was leading this instead of this, leading this. This is a tool to this. Does that make sense? And so anybody who walks closely with Jesus walks closely with God, knows we're in the season. But we can see it in the scripture because God's not going to leave us without his firm covenant word to show us. And if this is the second most talked about subject in the Bible, that means we're not supposed to be ignorant of it. Otherwise, we're unwise servants that are saying, my Lord is the laying is coming. And when we do that, we lose our ability to purify ourselves even as he is pure. Because the Bible says John made this statement when he saw the whole book of

Revelation that when he appears, and he's talking about appearing in the clouds, we're going to see him as he is. And all who have this eager expectation will purify themselves even as Jesus Christ is pure. So Jesus said when the servant, because he talks all about his second coming in Matthew 24, And then he tells a parable. And he said, if that servant says in his heart, my master delays his coming, he will begin to eat and drink and get drunk and beat the male, his fellow male and female servants. What is that saying? What is Jesus saying?

When we put off his coming, when we put it in the way distant future, what happens is it It makes it very easy to succumb to the dictates, to the inclinations, the desires, the passions of our flesh. But when we live with the living hope of him coming, any moment, we will purify ourselves. There's a power in it to purify ourselves even as he's pure. So I plan. Here I had an organization where we've got 50 employees here in America. we've got a thousand team members globally.

I'm preparing to the next generation and the next generation. But I'm living like he's coming back today. I love that. So you talk a lot about in your book that I had never really pieced together how much talking about Jesus returning is through the scriptures and how central it is. I had not quite pieced that together. We're going to come back to that. But obviously, as you well know, many generations before us have believed that Jesus was coming back in their

lifetime. That means everybody up to today who's minimally wrong who claim that Jesus is coming back. I'm curious where you stand at this. Do you believe he will return in our lifetime? Do you think the time is more ripe like we have a better chance in our lifetime? If so, what makes this generation unique? So all these generations, I believe God wanted them to believe he was coming back in their lifetime because of the power to protect themselves from the alluring power of this world. So, you know, I, if you look, you'll see many, many times, many times in the New Testament. The Lord is returning soon. Peter writes it. The end of the world is coming soon. Paul writes, the Lord is at the door. This was written in the first century. So I remember

when Lisa and I were engaged, she had to go to Indiana and prepare for the wedding, and I was in Dallas for two months. Those are two of the longest months I've ever lived my entire life. I can only imagine. A day seemed like a week. A week seemed like a month, a month seemed like a year. And I remember we got to the end. It was two days before I was flying up to Indianapolis to marry my gorgeous girl. And I was on the phone with her and I said, I'll see you soon, babe. And it was soon. Compared to that two months, two days was so soon. So if you look at a day with the Lord's a thousand years, this is the thing Peter said, we are not to forget.

Now, what every generation has not been able to explain up until ours is the fact that Hosea gives us a very specific timeline. Josea is writing to the Jewish people, and he tells them in Oseia chapter 5, the Lord speaks directly through this prophet and says, I'm going to rend you. I'm going to tear you. I'm going to literally come and just, I mean, Rick Havoc. And then I'm going to go back to where I came from. Now, this is interesting.

In order to go back to where you came from, you had to leave where you originally were and come somewhere, then go back. Well, if you look at Jesus, he left the right hand of the Father. And he came to this earth in the first century. But what also happened in that first century because they didn't realize the time of their visitation is that they were rented. If you look at between 70 and 135 AD, the Roman army systematically removed every Jew from the nation from the land of Israel. It was either through brutal murder. it was selling them to slavery or the smart ones got out before they got it captured. And so that was when God said, I will tear you, right?

There's only two times that we know of that God just says, I'm letting you have it, Israel. First one was with the Babylonians and the Assyrians. Second one was with the Romans. When between the Barcoba Rebellion and 135 was the very last stronghold, the Jewish people were able to maintain, but the armies of Rome destroyed it. Now, Josea in the very next verse, and this is why people miss it, these are the last two verses of Josea chapter 5. The very next verse, Josea 6.1, this is the people of Israel speaking. Come, let us return to the Lord, for he is torn us, but he will heal us. He is stricken us, but he will bind us up. After two days,

he will revive us. And on the third day, he'll raise us up that we may live in his sight. That third day is the thousand-year millennial reign of Christ. So he tells us something, Josea, that the early Jewish fathers and church fathers wrote extensively about is that mankind would have six thousand years, three ages, the age of chaos or creation from the time of Adam, to Abraham, and then the age of law or Torah from Abraham to Jesus, and then Jesus to the end of the time of the Gentiles, the church age, would be another 2,000 years. And then you would have your 7th day, which would be the 7,000-year millennial reign of Christ. If you look at Jesus died and resurrected around 32 AD. The destruction of Jerusalem was

70 AD. If you go 2,000 years, because a day with the Lord's a thousand years, just like Josea says, you end up at around 2070 AD. If you go 100 years from when the Jews got Jerusalem back, if we go to Jesus's words, he said, this generation will not pass. A generation could be 40 years, 70 years, or 100 years. In that word, that word generation, the Greek word, if you go to Nelson's Bible dictionary. It says a group of people living on the earth at the same time period. We still have people alive today that fought in World War II. That was 85 years ago. Now, they were probably 15 years old at least. So generations 100 years where you can have people on the earth at the same time. My grandson, who was just born four years ago, is alive at the same

time as World War II vets. So what that tells me is if you take Jesus's words, and from the time that the Jews get Jerusalem, and you add 100 years, you come to 2067, you take Jose's words, and you add 2,000 years, you come to 2070. I think we can safely say, and I know people are going to cut this thing out, and they're going to get all upset at me, but I can safely say sometime between now, And 2070, we are going to see Jesus return just as he said he would. And the scoffers and the naysayers will be very, very disappointed. They didn't listen and pray more carefully. That is a bold prediction.

I've not had anybody on my channel. Give a specific prediction within, what is that now? Like three, four decades, down to a certain date. So remind us, like, give us the quick pieces that make this case. Like you laid it out well and you pointed back to the creation of seasons. If I was going to say, sum this up so somebody could understand, what are those key components again that get us right to this date? So first of all, I said nothing about day or hour.

I said everything about a season. Okay. So I don't want any of your, because I said this on one other podcast and people are like, nobody knows the day or the air. And people were, I was, I didn't say a thing. because I don't defend myself. I don't believe in that. That's fair. But there were people that are coming back going, he never said a day.

He never said an hour. He said by this time. Because we're expected to know the season of his return. Jesus said that. So when I say this, I'm looking at two different, I'm extracting from two different, very specific things that were spoken in scripture. One is Hosea giving us the time period of the church, which is two days or 2,000 years. Okay, remember Paul said, all of Israel is going to be saved when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. He writes that in Romans chapter 9, 10, 11, somewhere in there. So the time of the Gentiles is when God is dealing with the church age.

You've got Jewish people that are getting saved that are in the church, but mostly it's Gentile people, right? When that time is up, Paul says all of Israel is going to be saved. If you look at the prophets of old, Josea said, excuse me, Zechariah said, they're going to look upon him whose hands they pierced, and they're going to realize, they're going to realize he's their Messiah. And so there's going to be such a great awakening. So that's what Josea means when he says, after two days the Lord will revive us. Israel's going to be revived. He's not talking about the church when he says after two days the Lord, will revive us. He's not talking about Gentiles. He's talking about the Jewish people. The Lord will revive us. And this is where a lot of people get confused. They mix together the Jewish believers with the

church. They mix together the tribulation saints with the church. You see the church in the first three chapter two and three of Revelation. You don't see her again until chapter 21. Why? But you you see saints, saints, because there's going to be a massive revival, a massive harvest of souls during the seven-year tribulation. You got 144,000 Jewish evangelists. Who are they going to lead to the Lord? I mean, are they evangelists with name only, and they're not going to lead anybody to Christ? There's going to be so many people saved during the seven-year tribulation. These are the ones that the Antichrist is going to be given authority of them. over by heaven. Heaven's going to give him the ability to conquer and destroy those saints.

Now, if that meant the church, then Jesus told us something that wasn't true because he said the gates of hell will not prevail against my church. He didn't say the gates of hell would not prevail against the tribulation saints. He never said that. He said the church. Because what we've got is we've got God dealing with his people. If you look at Daniel, the angel comes and the angel says Daniel. This is what is determined for your people, not the Gentile people. Your people have 70 weeks of years. Sixty-nine of those seven year periods have already passed. The end of the 69th is when Messiah was cut off and in the new living translation that says, appearing to accomplish nothing. There's one more seven-year people, one more year, seven-year period. That's when God turns back and really focuses on the

Jewish people. We're the wild olive tree. We're the ones that he grafted in because of his great mercy, his promise to Abraham, hey, it's not just your descendants. Through you, all nations are going to be blessed. God knew that there would be a church age. And that church age is his bride. The church. Church is the bride of Christ. So people get so confused. And I did for years when they read the Bible and they lumped the Jewish saints, the Jewish saints, the tribulation saints, and the church all into one bucket. There are three different dealings. And it's so exciting when you understand it. So you've got Josea giving you a time period. You've got Jesus giving you a time period. No other generation could have gone with either of those. In the 1600s, what do you say? After two days, well, it's only been 1.6 days, right? In the 12th century, you would have said, well, it's only been 1.2 days. We can say today, it has been two days, 2,000 years since the resurrection, the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. Of course, that's 233, somewhere in that neighborhood, but we're in that time period.

That's a powerful thing. And I would definitely amend you didn't give a date like this is going to be 20, 67, February 12th. But narrowing it down to the season very much so. That means if you're right about this, people alive today will see the return of Christ. Now, you laid out your two pieces of biblical evidence for this. Maybe helpful for me and also for our viewers and listeners. Can you walk us through some of the big things, the UC Eschatelago? logically taking place. And by this, I mean, some of the big buckets like the return of Christ,

the tribulation period, the millennium, the great white throne judgment, as you see it, what's kind of the order of these things take place as a whole? Give us that framework, if you will. Well, the first thing, the first thing that we see happening that's already happened is the great apostasy. I mean, Barnett tells us that over 60 million Americans have watched. walked away from the face since the year 2000. At the same time, we're seeing a revival. Because starting in 2022, we start seeing young men and women coming to Christ like crazy. So there's a great apostasy, and the Bible says that the man of sin cannot be revealed until the what? The great falling away first happens. Second thing we're going to see is we're going to see a move of God like,

well, that it will make the book of Acts look like child's play. I mean, the whole region of Asia heard the word of the Lord in two years without any podcasting, any YouTube, any television. The whole region of Asia heard it in two years. They put sick people on the streets of Jerusalem. And Peter just walks by and his shadow touches him. They get upheeled. That's like a pastor walking through a hospital and emptying it just by walking down the

hallways. They pray in the building. They were accused of being the people that turned the world upside down. You see entire cities coming to the Lord, the city of Samaria, Lida, Sharon, Joppa. The entire cities were coming to the Lord. Now, the Lord spoke to my heart in prayer, Sean. It was in the early 1990s, and he said, son, what you'll see in your lifetime will be even greater than the Book of Acts. And I said, I can't believe that.

I know, I have read, I have studied Acts so diligently. Lord, that's, I mean, people fall over dead when they bring up an offering on their church service. And I said, I won't believe it unless you give me scripture. And he said, okay, and I'll never forget this. He started rattling scriptures off. The end of a thing is better than the beginning. The glory of the former house should be greater than that of the latter house. He gave you the former reign moderately and just started ripping.

If you look at Isaiah 30 or 31, I believe it is, it says the people of God are going to put away their idols. And in that day, God will give rain. And in that day, the sun will be seven times greater. Wait a minute. When you get rich raining right here in Nashville, the sun is not seven times greater. He's talking about the glory of Jesus among his people. It's going to be seven times greater. It will give the light of seven days, he said.

That's amazing when you think about it. So we see apostasy and then we also see the outpouring of the latter rain. Remember, James says, the coming of the Lord, be patient because the fruit of the earth's got to receive the former and the latter rain. Axe was the former rain. Massive amounts of souls coming in. We have to see that. That's why I'm saying, I believe he's coming back by 27. but I still think there's a lot that needs to happen.

I actually was in prayer and I said, Lord, if you were to come right now, I would actually be a little disappointed because of the absolute outpouring of your spirit that I see coming from Scripture. Now, I know I'm not being irreverent towards God. I actually am saying, Lord, I know you have promised the latter reign.

You have promised the outpouring of your spirit in a profound way. I'm looking for it because it's going to bring in a harvest of souls like we've never seen. I think we're at the beginning. The early rain started with a bang on Pentecost and it faded out. The latter rain is going to start with a sprinkle and it's going to go into a full-blown hurricane. And I mean, we're going to see a move of God all over the earth. It won't just be in one location.

It'll be all over the earth. And so that's next. Then what happens, and you're pushing me into it. the corner. And right here, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not going to argue with anyone about this. But in the book, the king is coming, I give six scriptural reasons of why I believe he will catch away his bride before the seven year tribulation. Okay. Now, the most convincing to me is Isaiah 26 and first Thessalonius chapter four. Isaiah says, your, your life giving light is going to come upon us in the grave. He's talking about himself and his people, and you're going to raise us up,

and we're going to enter the chambers, and then the wrath of God is going to come. So in other words, God's going to raise these people up out of the graves, and then he's going to pour out his wrath on the nations. Go read it in Isaiah 26, last four verses. All right. So now, First Thessalonians, Paul said, I'm going to tell you a mystery. I'm going to tell you something Isaiah didn't know, because Jesus said, there are things that you don't know. Nobody is known because the Spirit hasn't come, but when he comes, he'll show you. So Paul, Paul and the other apostles, I think there's about 12 or 13 mysteries. What are mysteries? They're not mysterious. They means they are truths that were held secret until the Lord of Glory was crucified because if the principalities would have known

these secrets, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. One of those secrets is, I'm telling you this. We're not all going to die. What's going to happen? We're going to be changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye. For the dead in Christ will rise. And then we who are alive shall be raised together with them. And we shall meet the Lord in the air.

And the word literally means clouds, atmosphere, stratosphere, between the clouds and the exosphere. We're going to meet him and will ever be with the Lord. Now, if Isaiah says that the dead are going to be raised, are they going to, are these dead people, these Old Testament saints and all those people who have died in Christ in the church, are they going to hide in Petra? Are they going to hide in wildernesses and strongholds where people have been, you know, storing up? No, that's ludicrous. Dead people rising from the grate and then hiding on the earth for seven years.

No, when these dead people arise, they're going to be with the Lord. Okay? So, and then the judgment's going to come on the nations. So if we are raised with them who are alive on the earth, that tells me it's happening before the judgments poured out. Now, you could make an argument three and a half years into the tribulation because judgment doesn't come. But to be honest with you, those seals are broken right at the beginning because the very first thing that's revealed is the Antichrist on the white horse. So, That's just one of six that I give in the book. Now, I tell this in the book, my wife doesn't you agree with me.

And we joke about it. We laugh about it because this is not something for us to divide on. This is not something for us to argue about. And this is what kept me away from talking about this for four decades of ministry. I said, I don't want anything to do with it. But I realized the Holy Spirit was tugging my heart so strong. strongly I had to. And when I realized it is the big, the big importance of the second coming isn't dates and timelines. It's being ready. When I was at Pretty University, when I took my engineering

finals, I had to find out what classroom, what building, what time my final was. That took me five minutes. But I had to spend hours and hours and hours preparing. And the Bible says that the wedding, of the lamb has come and his wife has made herself ready. It doesn't say God made her ready. She made herself ready. To her, it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen and clean and bright, for the fine land is the righteous sacks of the saints. The number one priority of a bride that's in waiting, waiting for her groom to come back and get her. I'm speaking ancient Jewish wedding, not modern day Western wedding, she had to make that wedding garment. Well, I wonder, if in the Western church we even got enough material to make a bikini, let alone a wedding dress.

Because so many people, they just go to church, they get their 90 minutes, and then they basically live for themselves the rest of the week. I mean, it's her righteous acts. It's her obedient acts. Our salvation is free. You can never earn it. But we're the ones that are supposed to construct our wedding dress by our righteous acts. And so I wrote this book not to discuss and debate timelines and seasons. I put those in there because Paul said encourage one another with these words, not terrify one another with these words. I find that a lot of people, what they do is they use eschatology to terrify people. It's the wedding of the ages.

I don't know any bride unless she didn't want to get married to the groom that's terrified for her wedding day. My wife and I couldn't wait. So the church should be excited. We should be encouraging one another, saying he's coming. Our groom is coming. He's waiting for his dad to say, go get your girl. And we're a lovesick bride waiting for our groom to come and get us. That's the story for the church of the second coming.

Okay, quick pause. I want to tell you about a Bible study tool that I've used for 25 years. It is one of only two sponsors I have on this channel, along with Talbot School Theology. Why? Because I deeply believe in it and I deeply benefited from it. And I want you to consider using it. It's called Logos. And the tools it offers at your fingertips will blow you away. I use it preparing for interviews. I use it in my personal Bible study in the morning. And I even used to when I was writing my dissertation. That means it's a tool that can be used by scholars who want to go deep and lay people who just want to. want to get into the scriptures for themselves. If you want to learn how to study the Bible for yourself and just own and know the scriptures, you will not find a better tool than Logos. I'd love for you to consider trying it out. Start a free 60-day trial, which you can find at logos.com slash McDowell. Link is in the description. Now back to the show. Amen to that. I'm in the middle of doing a three-part series on this, and I have two interviews

He was with a New Testament scholar at Talbot, a colleague of mine, Alan Holberg. And he agrees with a lot of what you said. He would take kind of the – it used to be called Midtrib, but now in kind of a scholar-world, it's often called like a pre-rath position. And he talks a little bit about, like, the temple being built as a sign before Jesus comes back. We don't have to nuance this right now. People can read your book. You lay out your evidences for it.

You mentioned one reason why you were hesitant to get into studying this. for me, I was born in 1976. So Lindsay, I think, was the author of the decade or one of them and his stuff about the late, great planet Earth that lingered into the 80s when I grew up in the 90s. There were so much stuff about Russia is this beast. And I look back, I'm like, there was hysteria. They got so many things wrong. And it kind of jaded me for a while from even talking about end time.

prophecy and it it discouraged me from studying it not to mention so many people that gave specific dates like this exact date jesus is coming back and got it wrong made me think we have a lot of humility about how we read this especially because so many people didn't understand jesus when he first came even though the signs were there so what are the other things that changed you uh just pastoring teaching saying i'm not going to write on this but i'm going to do it ton of YouTube videos on this. I'm going to write a book on this. Like, this is kind of going to become my lane. What else motivated you to change? And are you glad that you did? Yes, I'm glad I did. I was very terrified at first. First of all, I thought I would never write on this or even

preach on it. You know, I've never preached a message on this until this year. January was the first time. Well, forgive me. In Mexico, I spoke to 11,000. people, or 11,000 member church in December. That was the very first time I'd ever preached a message on the second coming. How long have you pastored, though, by the way? I've been in ministry 43 years. So 42 years. Wow. 42 years, I never spoke on it. Okay, never. I because I didn't want anything to do it. I hated the arguments that were behind it. I hated the laziness I saw, the escape mentality. I couldn't stand it. And the Holy Spirit, I mean, started dealing with me in 2021.

And he said, son, I want you to look into this. And I mean, I felt so drawn in. And I didn't put hundreds of hours. I put thousands of hours. Now, I never thought I would write a book. Now, here's what happened. Between 2021 and 26, I started observing things in my own personal life.

First of all, my family said, dad, you don't get upset about things like you used to. I was like, okay. My wife goes, I'm not kidding. She says it all the time. You're my favorite husband. I'm like, first time she said, I was like, what does that mean? And she goes, we've been married for 44 years. She goes, I like John 2.0 better than 1.0.

I found myself, Sean, weeping to win souls to Jesus. I mean, I was passionate in 2015. Don't get me wrong. But I was so passionate, I'm weeping. I came home one morning because we have tennis courts two blocks from my house. And, you know, dark 30, I go out there. I walk around the tennis courts and I pray. I pray out loud and I pray loud because nobody can hear me.

And I came home one morning, which is I said, babe, I've been crying. I'm weeping. I want to win souls. And I realized, okay, wait a minute. this fruit isn't what I thought it would be. Then I started combining that with the thought, why would I avoid preaching the second most written about subject in the entire Bible? Good question.

And I went, oh my gosh. And I thought, wait a minute, okay, why is this the second most? And the Lord showed me in a 5K race. Now, Sean, are you familiar with 5K, right? Have you ever done a 5K race? Gosh, three miles. Not a formal one, but I've ran that length for sure. A 5K race, just for people who don't connect the dots, is a 5,000 meter race.

A K is 1,000. All right. When does the runner run the fastest in the 5K race? Well, I would guess. The last? Oh, keep going. the last hundred meters when he sees the finish line all of a sudden i thought go no i'm more passionate about ministry about getting soul saved about disciplining the nations of the world than i've

ever been in my entire life yet i've spent thousands of hours studying the second coming so all of a sudden now i started seeing experientially the wisdom of god of making this the second most talked about subjects in the Bible. Do you know the early church had what they called prophecy meals? They would get together for a meal and they would talk for hours and hours about nothing but prophetic scriptures. So what does it do? It keeps us urgent. If you look at the football team that's down 10 points at halftime, they come out and play the way they did. They're down 10 points with five minutes left. They're in no huddle. They are hurry up offense. And this is what will happen, and I believe with the church, when we have the realization of his soon return,

we'll become more diligent of getting soul-saved, people, disciples, and doing the work of Jesus. That's why this guy has made the decision to obey God and preach on this. John, I don't think I did an interview until last year. I started this channel 2010, 16 years ago, but got really serious. Actually, around 2020 during COVID. I was like, everything shut down. am I going to speak again? Am I going to travel again? I better find a way to communicate. But I had no intention of covering this topic. Two summers ago I was invited by what is now in my

home church. Maybe it was a little longer than that to preach on the revelation. And I preached on Revelation 20, dealt with the millennium, one of the most controversial topics in the Bible, and then the last words of Jesus. And I'll tell you, John, it does make me weep in a way. and I wonder why had I not studied this before? And I just want to tell you, because you mentioned weeping earlier, I want to ask what it is that makes you do so. So when I'm looking at Revelation 22, two things are powerful to me. One, Jesus writes, and this is verse 12, he says,

look, I'm coming soon, and my reward is with me. To repay each person according to his work, I'm the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning in the end. I get goosebumps reading that because the Christology is as high as it could possibly be. Jesus is the one true eternal God, and he's coming back to judge the world. But then the last word, words, amen. You go, it says, verse 20, he who testifies about these things says, yes, I'm coming soon.

Amen, come, Lord Jesus. Those words, when I look at the brokenness of the world, I find myself, saying that now more than ever, come Lord soon. Those two things, the high Christology, and that Jesus is going to make all things new, is what if I just stop and think about it moves me to tears? What is it? Because you've studied this a lot more than I have. What is it that moves you to tears when you studied the end times? The joy of being united with him. and not only me, but a massive amount of people, and that will be finally united with our groom.

I have a real belief that right from the beginning, God was looking for a bride for his son because he wanted that bride to be right next to his son and rule the nations, the continents, and the galaxies forever and ever and ever. And if you look at what Jesus says, to the most carnal church, the Laotocene church, to him who overcomes, I will grant them a throne as my father granted me a throne. And you will rule the nations. This life is going to seem like a very quick dream once we leave this world. And we're going to enter into what we're going to be doing forever and ever. And it's going to be a lot more exciting and full of full. of life and what's coming than what we've experienced here. If what we've experienced here was created by there, then what is there like?

It's going to be so exhilarating, so much, planning and building. And it's going to be eternally blissful. And I really mean that. And so I don't want anybody to miss it. and this is what you say, what caused me to be emotional. 1 John 228 says, remain in fellowship with him

so that when he appears, we might be confident and not shrink back in shame. Do you know how he starts that verse? Little children remain in fellowship with him so that when he appears, we might be confident and not shrink back in shame. It tells me there's two responses of believers. You know, when John doesn't say little children, he's not talking to atheists.

He's not talking to agnostics. He's talking to us. That when he appears, there's going to be two responses. One's shame and one's confidence. Let me give you an example of this. My dad never made more than $45,000 a year. Yet he's saved like crazy. The most frugal man I ever knew in my entire life.

So as kids could go to the university of their choice. I went to Purdue. I happened to walk on the tennis team and start. But still, my dad, my dad had to pay. And I remember when I sat in the very first day in the biggest lecture hall for the engineering school at Purdue, there's 6,000 students in all Purdue's engineering. there was about 2,000 to 2,500 of us freshman engineers sitting in that hall. And the professor looks at us and goes, look at the student, you're left, looked at the student to your right. You won't see them at the end of the year.

We're going to flunk 50% of you out. Oh, wow. And he said, and then next year we'll flunk out another 50%. So only one out of every three of you will be here at the end of your sophomore year. when he said that a real healthy fear hit me Sean and I started studying for finals that week I found guys I found guys who would encourage me to study I went to the library I got away from the parties and I worked like crazy and Sean do you know what my first semester they mailed the report card it takes about 10 days remember we don't have phones you're not getting your report card on your

phone. I was confident. And when that report card came, it was better than I thought. I made the Purdue University Dean's List. My dad saw that report card and his face lit up. He's a World War II dad doesn't say a lot, but boy, I'm telling you the joy on his face. I'm sure. Then I joined a fraternity. Okay? Now you know where I'm going. Okay. Now I'm playing Frisbee football all day. I'm going to four kegars a week. I'm, I'm partying like crazy. I'm dating girls. I'm not saved yet, okay? And I didn't apply myself. And I remember when that, that final period was over. I remember not having a lot of confidence. And I was dreading that report card. And when it arrived, it was bad. And I opened it up. And my dad said, son, let me see it.

And I remember his face when he saw that report card. I was so ashamed. I mean, I never let it happen again because I never wanted to see the look on his face again. John actually says there's going to be believers. They're going to be ashamed at his appearing. First John, 228, go read it, guys. I don't want anybody under our watch to be ashamed when he returns. So this message, even though you chose to start out with 30% of the book, the bulk of this book is what do we do so that we're not ashamed when he appears?

That's a great response. I love that. I do want the audience to know that, like, I've interviewed John Lennox, and he has a, I don't know, four, five, 600 page commentary just on the book of Revelation alone. and it's readable but very academic. You've clearly done your homework, but like you're articulating here, your concern is less pre-trib and mid-trib, though you lay out your evidence for that.

Your concern is less exactly when Jesus is coming out, but you're laying out fulfilled prophecy that we have reason to believe that it's the case. Your concern is more pastoral for people, how they live in light of this. That's important for people to know. Can I ask you one, maybe this is the academic,

or an apologist in me. I hope I can answer it. Just do your best. If the answer is simple, then give a simple answer. I'm curious, as you think about at the end times, if artificial intelligence at all plays a role in your thinking about this. And I ask because Silicon Valley billionaire Peter Thiel draws unlike biblical prophecies to warn of a quote, antichrist, who will promise safety from existential risk like nuclear war, climate

change, but then it would bring about something worse, this totalitarian government. Now, in some ways, he's borrowing Christian language in his kind of eschatology, but do you find any reason that that would be a part of it, or is that into the realm of speculation too much? Okay, so pure conjecture, conjecture from this point on. Okay. All right. So can we make that very clear? Totally fair.

That's what I appreciate that. If we go past 2070, let's say I'm totally wrong. I think this could possibly be the last full generation, I'm talking about from infant to adult, that we have fully human beings. I believe that they're going to figure out how to merge AI with human brains, and they're going to begin to go down that road.

I believe that AI, one of the greatest risks of AI, is false information. I believe that AI is going to be, it's a tool. I can have a gun and that gun can be used to protect or that gun could be used to destroy. I believe AI is going to eventually get into the hands of people are going to use it in very, very dark ways. So the thought has hit me. could this false profit, could he be kind of a hybrid of either? I don't want to go there. That'd be another hour. But could he be a hybrid of AI and human?

And could he be performing these things by the power of AI and the technologies that we have today to terrify people into obedience to the Antichrist, I think this could very well be something. I think if I could just be fully transparent here. AI, to me, is another indicator that I really do believe we're in the final days because of where it's going. And the hybrid that I'm talking about. I mean, if you look at the days of Noah,

you had angels having sex with women and they had Nephilim on the earth. And it got to the point where it was corrupted. Right? So the corruption on the earth wasn't just them drinking and getting drunk. It was the mixing of the seed. So if you look at this now, you're not mixing maybe demons with humans,

although I'm not saying that's not a possibility. I'm saying what's even more dangerous is mixing AI with human beings. And now you end up getting people that are losing consciousness as far as a consciousness towards God and are more driven by the intelligence, the artificial intelligence that has been merged into their brains. That to me shows me, because that's where it's going. do you know that this is the reason that Elon Musk pulled away from, I can't remember the guy's name who's over 80% of the AI, the Google guy.

Anyway, they were having a discussion and Elon made the statement. He said, this could get dangerous if we don't put some walls up. And he said, don't be a specious. That was the response of the CEO of Google. I don't know if it was Google. I can't remember. I'm doing this one because I've heard it a couple times. But in essence, what he was saying is, hey, we want the highest order to rule.

And if AI is more intelligent than us, then why are you, why are you scared? There are people that think like that. And so we're living in the day where once again, I think the seed is being, it could be corrupted again. Well, John, I super appreciate that you said this is, I don't know if it's the word like speculation, just to frame that. Conjecture, speculation. Conjecture. In some ways, oh, my goodness, we could have a full conversation on this. I have so many questions for you about the Genesis 6 passage about the possibility philosophically of us merging what that would look like.

We will let this sit with the audience. It's not in the book. This is nothing it was in the book. No, no, no. You put me there and Sean, I don't know why, but I've never done this on a podcast, never said what I just said. Hopefully, you know, people do understand. I'm just thinking what wildly could happen. I'm not saying it will happen.

I'm not prophesying it's going to happen. I am saying it could happen. And this is where very powerful human beings want it to go is what I'm trying to say. That's totally fair. And I think you qualified that very, very. fairly in terms of possibilities and thoughts and trends that we're seeing. So if you're listening going, hold on a minute. I want a full conversation about this and what the end times and artificial intelligence together would look like. Let us know, comment. Maybe we'll come back and talk about that,

but I also want to spend too much time on speculation. So let me just end by asking you this. You stunned me by telling me the first two months of the release of the king is coming is about a hundred thousand copies. Over. Over 100,000 copies. If a book sells that in its lifetime, or a quarter of that would be considered a success. So why do you think it's sold? It's got a great title.

You've got a great following. But is there something about the moment right now or something else that tells you it's landing differently? Yes, Sean. some of the greatest leaders in the body of Christ, most stable, they've been faithful for over four decades, have come to me and said, John, I didn't touch this with the 10-foot pole. And now I feel like I have to. I'm mandated by the Holy Spirit to talk about this. I have so many pastors that are in their 40s and 50s who pastor over 15,000 members in their church. And they're preaching on it. And they're telling me, John,

I feel so compelled to preach on this. I think all of us know it. All of us who really love God and walk with God, we know we're in the season. And you have to remember, John the Baptist came to prepare a people for Jesus' first coming. Malachi tells us that same anointing is going to come to prepare us before the great and dreadful day of the Lord before his second coming.

I don't believe it's one person like John the Baptist. I believe it's thousands of sons and daughters, men's servants and maid servants. I believe God is putting this on the hearts of leaders because we're right at the verge of a second coming. And the reason this book is sold the way it has, making the New York Times three times, over 100,000 before it was even two months old. It's amazing. It's because, and I've never, in 24 books I've written, I haven't had any of those. those books do this, not even half of this. The reason is because people know it. And when they see a title, the king is coming. They know and it bears witness. And just like multitudes, Jesus said,

what did you go out to the wilderness to see? A reed blowing in the rend? Somebody dressed up in a nice three-piece suit? No. Because this guy had a word. about my coming. And this guy was sent to prepare my coming. Well, I believe thousands of us, thousands, tens of thousands. God's putting that same thing on us. And we're preparing a people and making them ready for the Lord's coming. That's what I believe. I love it. John, I thoroughly enjoyed this interview. This is a lot of fun. It went some directions. I did not expect it to go, which is okay. And you are willing to weigh in and give you. your two cents.

I've been reading not nearly as man as you have, but been reading a lot of books. The King is Coming is fascinating. It's full of stories and examples every chapter. I'm thinking, where is he going? And then you relate it. You lay out your case of how you think eschatology will play out and why the return of Jesus is imminent.

And you invite people to examine it. So I'd invite people to pick up a copy. Minimally, even if you disagree with John, you'll find it interesting. You'll find it fascinating. You'll find it full of good stories, but really the big takeaway here is, and I appreciate that you said this, John, you've said, hey, if I'm wrong in my chronology, if I'm wrong about post-trib or pre-trib, I'm not wrong that Jesus is coming back. And I'm not wrong that the Bible talks about this over and over again. I'm not wrong that when we have confidence that Jesus is coming back, that must transform the way we live in the present.

That's a huge takeaway for your book. and so I hope people will pick it up. John, this is fun. Thanks for coming on. Sean, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. We'll do it again.

Check out the other interviews coming up with Dr. Alan Holberg. A lot of similarity, a little bit of different nuance on a few things. If you thought about studying, we'd love to have you at Talbot School theology. We have full classes on Daniel and Revelation. We discuss and we debate this stuff. We'd love to have you. We also have an apologetics program in particular where we talk about the evidence for Jesus. fulfilled prophecy, the scriptures, et cetera.

We'd love to have you join us here. John, you got a flight to catch, so this has been a joy, but thanks for coming on. Thank you. Hey, friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that follow button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning in haven't done this yet, and it makes a huge difference in helping us reach and equip more people and build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every review helps.

Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell show, brought to you by Talbot, of theology at Biola University, where we have on campus and online programs in apologetic, spiritual formation, marriage and family, Bible, and so much more. We would love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and defend the Christian faith today. And we will see you when the next episode drops. Hey friends. I'm Susan Michael. My podcast, The Outta Zion Show, is now partnering with Life Audio Podcast Network. You know, after decades of travel and study in Israel, I created out of Zion to bring you a simple, clear, powerful insights about the Bible, Jesus,

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