The Sean McDowell Show - The Truth about Haunted Houses: Ghosts, Demons, and the Paranormal

Episode Date: October 31, 2025

Can houses actually be haunted, and if so, what kind of activity suggests it might be real? How should Christians respond when they sense their might be a demonic manifestation in their home? Author Karl Payne has personally dealt with demonic manifestation in both people and homes. He is the author of Spiritual Warfare: Christians, Demonization, and Deliverance. He takes my toughest questions on haunted houses and demonic powers. READ: Spiritual Warfare, by Karl Payne (https://amzn.to/47Hm9fw) WATCH: Spiritual Warfare EXPLAINED: What the Bible Really Says about the Occult (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwZLtqNaIVA&t=10s) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [smdcertdisc] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

Want to keep God's word with you wherever you go? The King James Bible Study KJV app by Salem Media makes it easier to read, study, share, and pray daily with a timeless KJV translation. Enjoy features like offline access, audio Bible listening, smart search, and tools to highlight bookmark and take notes, all designed to keep your Bible studies simple and organize. Best of all, it's free to download in the Google Play Store. Grow in your faith every day. Search for King James Bible Study, KJV, and download the app today. one in four Americans have lived in a house they believe was haunted. Carl, you've written a book called Spiritual Warfare

and dealt with this question many times in your life and ministry. So I want to know, how should Christians think about the possibility of a haunted house? I'll give you a straight-up answer, and then I want to read you an email just before I came in here, because it again says that your assumption is true. But I would answer this way, I think. First, I would say, Sean, I always have had to sort through. Is it real? Is it somebody who is just looking for attention?

Emerald when I was speaking in Gettysburg, I mean, every hotel there said, we have demons. And I finally said, what is this about? And they said, well, people will come to our hotel if they think it's, are you kidding? Wow. And I go, no, no, very serious. So I'm saying sometimes there's working through that. But that doesn't mean because there are people that play games. with that for some kind of profit or curiosity that there isn't the real thing.

And I have had to work with the real thing many times. I've worked with pastors, missionaries that have called me and we've worked through it. I've worked with, I call it butchers, bakers, candlestick makers, just meaning anybody. You don't have to be in vocational ministry. So is it always true? No, I don't think so. Can it be true? I believe the answer is yes.

Now, you said you were going to read an email, so I'm eager to hear what you just today or yesterday you got share it please i got it less than just a couple of hours ago i was getting ready to come in here and thought i'd check my email once more and i like you i will change the names the location anything like that so it's no one's business but essentially what the the dad does he spends a paragraph telling me about what's going on with his daughter how uh her her husband died mysteriously in their house didn't make sense and uh they still live in the house and he's still live in the house and He says things are getting worse and worse. And here's what he says.

He says, you probably know my question. In your experience, have you ever seen an occurrence of a possessed individual suddenly dying, those demon demonic spirits possessing that person remaining in the house to disturb others? The children are becoming more and more frightened in this house, and occurrences are becoming more difficult to explain away. Their resources are limited and moving away to live with family isn't at all convenient or working with jobs. if we could get them connected with a minister in such and such a state, was it be worth talking about?

Bro, that just came in, and I wouldn't say that's unusual. I mean, most of the time I have people, demons, Sean would prefer to be with people instead of inanimate objects. Their first preference is to be involved with people. I'll tell you why. My guess. My best guess is that people are made in the image of God. Satan and his minions want to do all they can to diminish the image of God. So I think they would prefer if they have the choice to be involved with individuals.

But if they think by being involved in something inanimate, houses are natural because people are in and out, they're more than happy to work through that as a tool to get after the people. Because who they're interested in are the people in the house. So maybe compare and contrast with us, if you will, a Christian person. view of what it would mean for a house to be haunted or if we should even use that term, from kind of depictions in popular culture? Good question. I would say that Hollywood, at least my experience, I don't even watch the movies anymore. I mean, it's just they so glamorize the bad guys. I mean, I'm so tired

of the Christians end up getting beat up by the same demons that are involved with whoever the exorcist is or the haunted house is. And I'm just going, it's not how it has to work. So, you know, heads, when I've had people, I've had missionary pastors and counselors in my office say, can I sit in with you while you work with people? And I'll say, that's up to them. If they're comfortable with that, I'm fine with that. If they're not comfortable with that, no. But when they have, I have had on numerous occasions when they'll say, it's just so straightforward. I mean, it's just kind of, kind of pedantic. I mean, I was expecting people throwing up and the heads going all. I go, no. I go, that's, that's Hollywood. And I'm saying,

Sean, what I say, I'm taking too long to say, I see too much of the stuff on the haunted house from Hollywood being glamorized in a way that doesn't have to and usually doesn't correspond reality. Now, here's the other side of it. Whether a person is a Christian or a non-Christian, it doesn't matter. If demons have a right to be involved in a place, and typically they will say, and this is, I'm giving you something subjective, someone else, may disagree. My subjective experience has been that cooking drugs, murder, suicide, that type of thing. Demons have said, that is our right to be involved in this house. They say murder, sacrifice, all that is a tribute to our boss, and that gives us a right to be here. And the drugs, I don't

know why, particularly hallucinogenics, I can't give you an answer why, but I have found particularly when houses are cooking or have been cooking hallucin jank junk seems to be a wide open door to them. If someone says again to me, does it matter if it's a Christian living in that house or not? I would say, well, if the Christian knows what to do and they move in and it's their house, they can put a stop to it right away. If the Christian doesn't know, the demons don't care who lives there, if it's a Christian that doesn't know what they're doing, or if it's a non-Christian that doesn't know what they're doing,

they'll either just continue to try and use it, take advantage of it, or if it's Christians, by and large, here's how I see it usually work. They'll try and scare mom and dad. If that doesn't work, because mom and dad are fairly well grounded, they'll try to scare the kids to see if they can get mom and dad upset or bitter because it's like, man, we love you, God. You know, we follow you, and what in the world's happening to our kids? So they will use the kids to try and attack the parents. And I think the notion is if we can get a hold of the parents, we probably will get the kids.

So if someone says, can that happen to non-Christians? Absolutely. Can they feel the same freedom in a house of a Christian? I'll say if that Christian doesn't know what they're doing, they fear Jesus Christ. They fear the people who Jesus lives in. And other than that, they don't fear anyone. So like when you see in Acts chapter 19, or they don't fear anything. If you see in Acts chapter 19, Jesus, we know, Paul, we recognize.

Who do you think you are trying to mess with us? and didn't go so very well for the sun's Skiven. So when I will have people call me and say, and if I step into something, you know, you're wanting to go a different direction, tell me, when I have people say, I've had this within the last two weeks. Can you please?

We had our priests come over and he spread oil in our house. We burned sage in our house sometimes when it's been a new ageer. You know, we don't like what's in here. It doesn't go away. And we thought that pouring oil or waving sage, and I just go, you clearly do not know what you're doing. Now, we're going to come back to what Christians can and should do in this circumstance. But I want to ask you first, you've been talking about demons and a haunted house.

From what I've seen in popular culture, it's usually a ghost, understood as a human being who dies and doesn't go into eternity and then comes back to try to write some kind of wrong. So I guess a couple part question is, do you believe in ghosts in that sense? If you do or you don't, what does it mean when we talk about a house being haunted? And how is that different again from the way it's often depicted? Okay. Great question again. I go back to Hebrews 927 when I have to stand on either what someone tells me is their experience and they believe it or scripture. I'm not saying I disavow all experience.

Sometimes I've got to deal with people's experiences, especially if they're consistent. But if something violates scripture, I'm not rolling there. I don't care who it is. Amen. So when I'm told that it is a point of all men wants to die and then judgment, when people tell me that demons are ghosts, they're the disembodied spirit of someone that was there. It's their relative, their friend, their husband, their loved one.

I go, that is not biblically accurate. Demons are entities. They're real entities. I believe Revelation says they're the third that followed the loser who decided to rebel against God. and I believe there's a finite number of them. And I believe that when we've got, you know, think of Deuteronomy 18, Deuteronomy 5, Leviticus 20, I'm there so, think of Saul in 1st Samuel 28, he got smoked for going to the witch of Indoor. He and his kids.

He had his kingdom taken before, dynasty taken before, but when he went to her, God said, that's it. And so I'm suggesting the whole thing about necromancing, talking with the dead, I will have people, I've had serious Christians say, well, I think that I'm a Christian medium. And I'll say, well, what is that? And they'll say, well, I'm a Christian, but the spirit of or whoever, you know, I can call them up. They talk to me, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and I'll say, that is not the spirit of your loved one. That is not what you think it is. You're playing games with demons.

So do I believe in ghosts? I think ghosts and demons typically in my world are talking about the same. thing. What they represent, there's a very different view from secular, which says it's like Casper, it's just fun. Or I can remember when I was living down in San Diego, your dad was, we were down there at the same time. That's right. And yeah, and I remember when Vista School District, maybe they've changed it by now, but it was up north of us said that they were having time, and the parents were having a fit, because they said, we're having time for all of our kids to lay down and have quiet times so they can have familiar guides who will talk to them. And, and

Yeah, you know, and these spirit guides are their friends and they'll talk to them, et cetera, et cetera. And there were some people going, you don't have a clue what you're doing. So I'm suggesting, no, they weren't, you know, my grandmother's talking to me. No, she's not. My father's talking to me, no, he's not. And a gal say to me, very interesting. Her husband, lawyer, husband, chairman of the board at one of the real large churches here. I'm very familiar with.

We've done a lot of things together. The mother was coming over to our church. I can't tell you why. But she comes up to me and she rolls up. She was in a wheelchair and she said, I think I did something that I shouldn't have done. I said, what's that? And she said, well, my husband, so-and-so, you know, died eight years ago.

And she said, you know my son. She gave me his name. I said, yeah, I know him. Good guy. Loves the Lord. Smart guy. And he said, I was just distraught. So she said, one night I asked God if he would send back my husband to talk to me and comfort me.

And she said, I thought. God bless me and did me a wonderful favor because she said, something came into my room. And it was my husband, talked like my husband, looked like my husband. And she said, for three years, I've had God sending my husband. And she goes, I am finally comforted in something I couldn't get over. I said, so why? She said, well, it's now eight years later. And I said, what happened?

She said, after year three, that same thing that talked to me so nice changed and said it was going to destroy me and kill me and I was a fool and I should know better and she just breaks into tears and she says what did I bring into my house? And I said, that was not an insincere Christian woman. It was a woman distraught. If I said, do I think, did I ever walk over and say, okay, I want this thing to manifest to me? No, I didn't do that? But if someone said to me, do I think she was putting me on? No. Do I think that she walked herself into trouble? Yes. Do I think at first, Casper, the friendly said, I'm your buddy, and I'm here to be nice to you. Maybe that's how it gained insurance into that house.

She opened the door. But once that thing finally decided, I've laughed. I don't mean laughing at that. I said this to someone on Sunday. I said, friend, I said, you can put a bow on a skunk and call it fluffy. When the dogs start chasing it, you're going to still find out what it really is. And I said, they didn't take all that long to finally say, you're a fool. You know, you deserve to die.

Your prayers bounce off the ceiling. You know, why do you read your Bible? You get nothing out of it. And she's going, I'm getting bombarding with this stuff mentally. And she goes, and I invited it into my house. Someone would say, oh, she has a haunted house. And it was her husband. No, it wasn't.

Never was. She invited it in. You don't have to invite them in if you move into a house where they're already there or you bring them in. I'll give you another one real quick. Yeah. One of our pastors. I think maybe you wanted to get here anyway, and you didn't know this story.

One of our pastors, our mission, our pastor's admission, 14 years, all right? He comes up to me and he says one day, he goes, he goes, Carl, there's something going on in my house in Hawaii, Polynesian, and grew up over there, right? So very familiar already with the spiritual stuff. He said, that's rampant over here. That's why he wasn't afraid to talk to me about this stuff. You know, he goes, that's everywhere over there. But he goes, we bought a house. I said, yeah.

And he said, congratulations, whatever. And I said, what's going on? He said, there's one room in the house that my wife and five kids will not go into. I said, why? He said, you walk in. He says, my hair instantly stands up. He said, it's cold. He said, it's cold.

Doesn't smell, nothing like that, like some of the clichéish kind of stuff you hear about. But it's cold. There's something wrong with this. And he said, is it possible that this thing could have a demonic spirit in it or maybe more than one? I said, I have no idea. I said, tell me a little bit about it. And we talked for a few minutes, and I finally said, and what I said earlier, demons believe suicide, murder,

and cooking drugs are tributes to their boss. I said, did any of that go on in your house? And he said, it couldn't have. And I said, why? And he said, we bought this house from a farmer, leveled it. We built the house on top of it. We're the first owners. I said, well, when I'm stumped a little bit, let me think.

And then he looked at him and he said, well, we bought the place because the farmer was murdered in the basement. I said, what room? Oh, I said, what room was he murdered in? His eyes, Sean, got big. And he goes, oh, man, it's the same room that is cold. He goes, my hair, little stands up. And I said, well, I've given you at least three options for where they think that gives them a right to hang around that house. And with five kids and you being a minister, I think that's pretty good.

good pickings. Why should they waste their ammo on people who could care less about Jesus if they've got a chance to bother somebody who does love Jesus? So here's what I told him to do. I gave him the in on that little book. You know, you mentioned earlier. And I didn't come here to hawk the book. I came here because you're my friend. You asked me if I do this. I love you. Want to keep God's word with you wherever you go? The King James Bible Study KJV app by Salem Media makes it easy to read, study, share, and pray daily with a timeless KJV translation. Enjoy features like offline and access audio Bible listening, smart search, and tools to highlight bookmark and take notes, all designed to keep your Bible studies simple and organized.

Best of all, it's free to download in the Google Play Store. Growing your faith every day. Search for King James Bible Study, KJV, and download the app today. Love your pop. That's the only reason. That's why I'm here, right? But in that thing, I talk about confession, canceling, commanding. And I said, confession and canceling takes away a demon's right from being able to be involved

with a Christian or a home. or whatever it is that gave them the right the lady that i told you about she invited it in this situation our missions pastor he didn't have a clue what was going on he just thinks he's moving his family into a new house and they're all excited about it right two very different situations but i said i won't i'll just say fred that wasn't his name i'll just say fred here's what i want you to do i said i want you to ask god if he would forgive any sin that has allowed demons to think they have the right to be involved in your home because it's not somebody else house is home, it's yours. And you want this to be a house of hope, not a house on wheels going to

hell, you know, scaring everybody. So new owner, it's yours. I want you to ask him if he would not only forgive any sin that would have opened doors to that kind of thing. And I said, I would mention the murder of the farmer. That would be a pretty good, pretty good guess, you know, if you're, you know, was that or if there's something else? I don't even know. Maybe there were drugs going on. Maybe there was, you know, whatever it would be. Lord, your omniscient, would you forgive any sin? and cancel. And remember the first on one nine. I said, I said, his name. I said, Fred, he not only forgives, he cleanses. And I said, what I would do if it was me? I said, when I moved into my house, I'm not a super suspicious guy pretty straightforward. I said, Lord, I'm giving this house to you from the top and bottom,

from all the property lines. I don't want anything from the other side trying to use this for anything to take it away from being a house of hope. So if anything wants to come swinging by, would you swing at it and tell it not not not on this watch right so i basically said that's what i want you to do and then i said second c cancel comes from the uh uh the the ephesians four 27 that popposs uh giving away a place space or territory something interesting to me on that we may get into that another time never one time that's 91 times in molten guedon you'll know what that is you can tell your audience if you want that that word is used not one time is it used of anything in intimate, it's always something real. It's always, it's not theoretical, it's not spiritualized,

it's something real. And so in Ephesians, you know, 427, and Paul says in 26, don't play games with sin. And 27, he says, why? You do not want to give the devil top of place, space or territory, we even look it up, of control. It doesn't mean that they own anything. Doesn't mean the devil owns anything. It means you've given them permission to mess around with what. whatever, you gave them permission to control. And the woman says, she invites him in because I want to see my husband. And my brother, you know, my pastor friends, it was just he didn't have a clue. But there'd been murdered in the house. And they claimed that. So I said, I want you to ask God, would you forgive any sin that could have opened these doors? Because we don't want that thing here,

or things. And would you cancel any permission that they've been given? Because this isn't that farmer's house anymore, it's ours. And we want it dedicated to the Lord Jesus Christ. He said, then what do I do? I said, I want you and your wife to pray. And he goes, well, you, will you come over and pray? I said, I can, but demons recognize you as the owner of the home. They give you more juice than me, just like parents see you as parents of your children. Those children are entrusted to you. I can pray for your children. But you've got more juice than I do because they see that those children have been entrusted to you, et cetera. So I said, what I want you to do is just you pray. He says, do I have to do it in every room? I said,

I don't care. You can walk through every room. You can just say, Lord, here's what I'm asking to do. And so he prayed, Father in heaven, I'm asking the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that you would forgive any sin, cancel any ground, the demons would hold against them, given their right to be here. And I'm now in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we are commanding, not asking any demonic spirit, since this is our house, if you think you have a right here, that's been taken away from you. The sin that opened the door has been forgiven. The ground that was given to you has been, that's closed, that door is closed. You're now an intruder. You're not wanted here.

So we're not asking you or commanding you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Leave this house from the top of it to the bottom of it. Every part of the property line, you no longer have access to this. Holy Spirit, would you enforce this? We're praying this to the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. He walks up to me. I don't remember if it was a day later.

I remember if it was the weekend Friday. He goes, it's gone. And I said, what? He goes, same temperature, Carl. Now, he came in and his wife came in and said, will you show us how to start working with this stuff? I mean, not just houses. They said we knew because of our background, both growing up in the islands. This stuff is real and Christians are silly when they're running from it or thinking it's not real.

We want to know this is real. I ended up training both of them, and they have helped so many people. That's great. They got themselves involved with this stuff because for them, they're going, it's real. I'm going, well, Jesus said it was. Apostles said it was. Church fathers, I still enjoy reading them, said, yeah, we had to deal with that. So I'm going, if you want to define it away as some kind of a verbal virtue crad, I guess, God bless you.

But I think sooner or later, you're still going to find out this stuff. Not always is real, because some people make it up. Some people are looking for attention, et cetera. But sometimes, Sean, it is very real. So you're talking about what is often called a haunted house, but it's really a demonic manifestation. And there's roots for this often, like drugs and murder like you talked about, et cetera. on one hand you said a lot of the people that you work with are it's not as dramatic as you see in the movies like head spinning and stuff like that but this story was pretty dramatic

so what are some of the signs that somebody should look for if it's this kind of demonic activity in a house so you said temperature is dropping down is it certain sounds that we hear is it doors flying open is it a feeling of oppression what are some of the common signs that would say there's more going on here. Great, great question. I wouldn't put the temperature dropping, or when people say it has funny smells, I would say it can, temperature can drop.

But what I see is, more often, will be, Carl, there are things that appear in my house. Sometimes they'll say there's shadows. Sometimes they'll say, I can see them. What people will say, I don't even know if you're going to believe me, but there's something that comes into my room. I'll go, really? Yeah, yeah. Let me, can I guess? I used to just let them share the whole thing. Now sometimes I'll finish it for them and I'll go, I'm not crazy. And I'll go, I've had so many people share this over the years, you know, ministers, missionaries, butcher, bakers, candlestick maker. So let me, let me just take a wild guess. You're in your room. You feel like something is pressing down on you. You feel like you can't move. You try to say, get out of here, whoever you are, nothing comes out of your mouth. You try to reach your hand over and

flip your light on because you're scared and you feel like you're paralyzed to your bed. And now you're scared, really scared and just start saying, Jesus, make this stop, third or fourth time it stops. And then you sit up and go, I know I was awake. I didn't dream this. But if I say something like this, my friends will think I'm whack. And they've looked at me and go, are you psychic? I go, no, I'm not psychic.

I'm a Christian. I go, the secular community can say, well, we just have nighttime paralysis. You notice, they never know. They don't know how to explain it. It's like, what is it? How do you get it? How does it go away? It's like when someone says to me, they have narcolepsy. I've worked with several people involved with demons through narcolepsy. What made it suspicious to me? Well, we don't know how you get it.

You don't know how it goes away. So you take uppers all day to stay awake. And then we give you sleeping pills to work. And that's the rest of your life. I'm just going, okay, I don't worry. I just take the pills. Why? Well, I was told that's what I have.

Well, it's just called sleeping paralysis. And it's just really common. I go, maybe really common or more common we want to say, but you still don't explain what is it. You just say since I labeled it. So when I have Christians coming in and going, it scares me, I can sometimes even see things. I have kids that I'll walk up in the middle of the night and they're saying, Daddy, there's something here. And they are screaming and crying.

And we say, as wonderful Christian parents, well, if you're a Christian, honey, they can't bother you. And you've already asked Jesus into your life. You just had a bad dream, you know, or something like that. So go back to sleep. And then a couple nights later, no, Daddy. I'm saying when I start getting that kind of stuff and creaking and of course, you know, any of that kind of thing. You know, when people say things can fall off shelves and stuff and break, it can.

I mean, that's not all just Hollywood. But when there's that kind of thing going on, I'll say, it doesn't take a five beta cap to say, maybe we need to have a thing, you know, do some thinking about this. If someone's saying, I just read a book on this, the haunting of such and such house, and now I'm laying away looking for it. I go, why don't you read your Bible? You know, instead of, you know, why don't you watch movies that lift up Jesus instead of the others?

So, again, I know there are people that can read wrong things, watch wrong things, and then say, I'm imagining wrong things. Someone says, can that have a course a kid? But that does not mean that there aren't, when a Christian parent tells you, pastor, and I'm saying pastors, missionaries on purpose, because most people listening to you will figure they're pretty serious about their faith. In other words, it's not just a strung out drug addict, it's not just the alcoholic, It's not just the occultist. It's not just the person loving new age and spiritism and that kind of thing. I'm saved by grace in Christ alone through faith alone.

Faith alone, grace alone. Has Swindall say that. We're saved by grace alone through faith alone and Christ alone. I like what Swindall said it. I go, I get that. I walk with God, but there's stuff in my house. It's real, Carl. That is far more often.

but here's what I'll tie it and I'll say it again. I find that there's a lot of Christians saying, I don't want to say it. My pastor says Christians can't touch demons, so he's going to think I must not be a Christian. You know, if I tell him that, or I tried to tell one of my leaders, and I got these eyes going like this and said, I always took you for a sane person that stands on faith.

But man, you can't, I mean, these are just your feelings. This isn't real. And I'm saying the reason that I know what happens, I did it. I mean, I trained out of two very wonderful Bible school seminary. I mean, at least I believe they were. Multnomah was as solid as comes around Western seminary, you know, solid. We were just told this stuff as silly and ignore it. You know, just spend your time reading scripture, memorizing scripture, praying. Let the people at 3 o'clock in the morning worry about that stuff. I mean, all they do is follow their feelings. they know their Bible anyway.

And I'm saying, is there enough of that up that you can see the stereotype? Sure. But it doesn't explain this stuff when you're going, no. These are people that they're dialed in. They love God. And they're saying either there's something in my house or Carl, I'm getting beat up mentally with. Jesus doesn't love you anymore. You've committed an unforgivable sin.

Your prayers bounce off the ceiling. Why do you read your Bible? You don't get anything out of it? I had a gal come into my office, mother of two, mid-30s. And she says, can you tell me what blasphemy is? And I said, well, biblically, I can explain that, sure. And so I talked. And she said, well, thank you.

And I said, why? She said, well, in my head, I keep hearing Jesus left you because you're a blasphemer. And she said, a counselor, you know, she told me that I'm making this up. It's just self-taught. And she said, my question to you, Carl, was, why would I accuse myself of something when I don't even know what it means? She goes, if I'm wanting to beat myself up, wouldn't I at least use vocabulary I understand? And I said, well, I think that's probably a pretty good observation. And she said, would I keep hearing all the time?

Jesus doesn't love you anymore because you're a blasphemer. She had walked herself in through some other. But what I'm saying is she already had self-talk. you're just making this up. Well, why? Because you're a Christian. And so you're a Christian, you can't be touched. And since you can't be touched, either you're not really a Christian, or you're just making this up and it's your imagination. So just get back in your Bible, you'll be fine. Sean, I shared stuff like that as a new Christian because that's what I was taught. So when someone says, why do we see so many churches and some denominational locations,

more than others maybe, kind of better known for that, just like there are some better known for there's a demon under every bush. There's others. You know, demons can't mess with you. I mean, if we want the pendulum, we can find both sides of it. And I say, because when we is the ones that are being trained in ministry or best said, well, it's ambiguous. I don't know what to say to you.

Or, no, no, no, I'm going to share with you the same things I heard. If no one talks about it as if it's serious, why should we be preparing for it as if it's something serious? So our people are embarrassed to come say something to us because if they tried before, they just feel like I got mock. Carl, how many times I've heard this, Sean? Carl, I know I love Jesus. I know I've gone through the gospel. I know I walk, et cetera, et cetera. I walk with God. I'm not arguing with them on that. But in my own church, I feel like I'm on the outside looking in. Because if I told them what is going on, I would be smirched. But then if I go to the churches where everything is demons, after a while you start going,

does anybody have any solid biblical understanding of what this is about? Sure. Because the pendulum seems to go like this, I don't know what to think anymore. I don't even know. Maybe my whole faith is a joke, or I always thought that Jesus was stronger than demons. But, man, I ask him to make this stop. I ask for my house, this stuff going on to stop and my kids do not be bothered. And it doesn't.

Are they stronger than Jesus? I'm going, clearly you understand. from scripture. One is creator. One is part of the creation. Kratur always trumps creation. There you go. Well, just when you get it thrown in your face and you get beat up. And then when some people don't even believe you're getting beat up, you go, you just feel like you're on the outside looking here. Man, that's a good word. I'd be curious, if you've seen any studies on how common this is. And I ask because looking for a simple way to stay rooted in God's word every day, The Daily Bible Devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals

designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you connected with scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy Daily Bible Trivia and Humor, a fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your faith. Get the Daily Bible Devotion app for free on both iOS and Android. Start and end your day with God's Word. Search for the Daily Bible Devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store and download it today. I've talked about other supernatural for those.

I've really leaned into it for some of the reasons you've hinted at like near-death experiences. I've seen studies from four to 10% of people have had transformative near-death experiences, deathbed experiences. There was one study in New York that said 88% of patients, different kinds of experiences, but kind of push back and resist a natural kind of explanation. Do you have any sense of how common it is for a house to have the kind of demonic manifestation that you're talking about? Or is it really impossible to have reliable stats on it, and it's more anecdotal?

Probably the latter. I would just say this, like I told you, for me, subjective experiences don't make or break a case for me. If it's consistent, biblically based, I'll listen. But it's got to be scriptural. You know, for me, I want to know where does scripture say? What's it talking about? Are you reading this stuff contextually?

Or for me, I'll just smile and take a step back, I suppose. But I guess I would say it this way, and I kind of hinted in it earlier. At least I'll take it back. I'll call it my subjective experience, and you'll have some of your, you know, it's probably wanting to be smirch all of the go, there it is again. It's a subjective experience that can't be true. Oh, no, sometimes there's a reality. You jump off a roof, 10 times out of 10 times, you're going to go down,

and you can say it's my subjective experience, but I'm going to say very consistent with the law of gravity, isn't it? So just because it's a subjective experience doesn't make it wrong. But I would say this. I still believe that demons prefer to be involved with human beings. And I think it's so they can say, see, Jesus, you died for that one. And he still doesn't follow you. In other words, it's a mockery.

Since I know I'm going down, I'm going to take as many with me as I can. And I'm happy to take anybody because they're all made the image of God. But especially those ones that say they love Jesus, I love to throw it in the face so that they can go, was it worth dying for that one when they won't even stand up for you anyway? I asked, I had a military captain in here, attempted suicide, and was on his way up to the psych hospital, which was up north of us, and was asked, could he stop in to see me from where this occurred to where he had a week in-stay going to be happening?

And I said, I'll do this quickly, you know, because this isn't on the topic of haunted houses, but it ultimately relates. He said, I said, you didn't want to die, did you? And he says, well, how'd you know that? I said, because your special forces, you fly out into the night, you're in charge of one of those groups. You'd already told me that. I said, if you wanted to die, you know how to kill people. And he just said, I was just so tired. And I said, tired of what? And he said, in my head, I kept hearing, you're not worthy of your rank. You think you're helping people by sharing your faith, but they're mocking your faith and you would do better not talking about your faith because people are being turned off

because of Jesus. And then it was like people are going to get killed. And he said, man, honor duty, very important to someone like me. And I keep and he said, I've been in the service 17 years. I have talked about Jesus for 17 years. He said, most Christians, even going into service, I don't know how much you know about that car, but he said, they go deaf dumb and you. It's not very popular. So he said, I want to know why I'm getting beat up in my head when I am one of the ones is trying to stand up for Christ. And I said, his name, Captain. And I said, I said, actually, I think you make a better target than someone's paddling out

in the ocean and running into a seagull once in a while. And he said, what do you mean? I said, how much time do you prep when you go out on these missions? Sean, this was the real deal. I mean, this wasn't the make-believe on TV. Yeah, that's real deal. And I said, how much time do you spend prepping for people that can't hurt you? And he said, well, we don't have the time to waste on people.

can't hurt us. We got to prepare for the people it can. I said, you said four or five times to me at least. I keep hearing in my head, you're worthless. Jesus doesn't love you. And I go, if you are worthless and he didn't love you, why would anybody take the time to remind you? They just say, sleep on. You're doing just fine, doing nothing. And he looked at me and he said, you're saying, because I want to stand for Christ, I make a better object or target for having to prepare for than someone who just, I'm a Christian, but I could care less about my faith and I snooze. I said, is that how it works in your world? He said, yeah, I said, that's how it works in my world too.

So I said, the irony is when people say to me, but I love God, I shouldn't be one of their targets. I go, no, actually you make a better target. And I've had some in one of the circles that we've talked about, not very much. We can get into that sometimes. But I've had people say to me, it is just so silly. It's insecure people. Don't know the word of God.

You know, don't stand on the promises of God. I've had people say, I walk so close to God that just know it would be a waste of time to bother me. They're going to go after first. They're probably not Christians. And if they are, they're neurotic, you know. So that whole attitude. And I say, let's turn to Matthew 4. I want to read verses 1 through 11.

Jesus was God incarnate, right? Well, yeah. I say, he sure got hassled. Well, yeah. Are you more righteous than Jesus? Well, probably not. Did he ever say I'm imagining all this? No.

Did he ever say this is some kind of a theoretical construct for Nanderthals that don't know how to explain supernatural things because they're not really suitor. He said he was proposition three different times, three different ways. That's right. I said, what was his response? Bowed down and worship. How more insulting that asked the creator to bow down to arbitration and blaspheme? I said, what was his answer? Will you worship God and him only?

Get lost. Lee. He at no point said this isn't real. This doesn't happen. So when you tell me, friend, that you are so close to God that go bother the neurotic ones because you walk close to God, I guess you want me to believe you're more righteous in Jesus. In my mind, he probably made a better target because if he could be lured into sin, he can't die for the penalty of sin because he's no longer the Lamb of God taking away the sin of the world. So my guess would be there's probably a higher target if you would on ones that'll say, I want to walk with God, the people that will sleep. So I sit there and go, why bother someone's house? Well, maybe someone died in it. Maybe there

were drugs cooked in it. Maybe it has nothing to do with that person. On the other hand, maybe if someone says, I really love God. So demons are cruising along. They call them visitors because a demon manifests itself or something. It doesn't mean they have a right to be there. And usually when that happens, someone will say, I remember 27 years ago that happened. I've never happened since. You don't have a haunted house. But I've had people say, just the craziest thing. I mean, stuff fell off or something.

I saw something, Carl, or there was something there. It was scary and all. I said, happen again? No, no. I say sometimes maybe they just kind of check them to say, let's throw one of these little arrows out and see if we can get this person to dive into fear. If they'll dive into fear, I ask the captain,

I'll finish this with this. I asked the captain, he was odd. He looked at me and he goes, yeah, and I said, you sleep with a night on a light on a night now, don't you? When you can sleep. And he said, what? I said, you don't sleep well. And you sleep with a light on.

And he goes, how do you know that? I didn't tell you that. And I said, I didn't know that. One of the things I've happened is if demons won't, if the Christian won't cooperate cognitively in their conscious mind. and demons are bound and determined to want to try and find some way to bother, they'll go to the subconscious. In other words, you won't cooperate with me when I say, look at the woman, look at the man, look at this, sell out for, you know, world flesh, you know, typical stuff. They won't do it.

So I'm going to start making my little digs at you at night until after a while you're looking over your shoulder. You can't sleep. And I said, then you start getting rummy, dummy, and then you start making really dumb decisions. and then you start thinking without the light, then you start feeling guilty is my hope in this light or in Jesus. That's right. You're not a Christian anyway. And I said, that cycle just, and he goes,

that's exactly what happened to me. And I said, I can repeat that story so many times. Why would they want to bother people at night? Because they won't cooperate with them consciously during the day. So maybe they just won't cooperate. So we take the pass through, we shoot some of our arrows and whatever, and they won't bite. Okay, we'll go find somebody that will.

but sometimes they will. And then the more we pile this thing on, the more rummy-dummy they get. And after a while, they're going, I'll know what to think. That is way more common. So your question how often, it's more often with people than houses because they don't prefer inanimate objects. That makes sense. But will they use the inanimate object if the people won't cooperate?

I try to bother the parents, they wouldn't buy it. I went after the kids hoping I could get the parents bitter. They wouldn't buy it. So I went after the dog because all of them loved the dog and figure it up. The dog can get whacked. Everyone will get upset. Dog wouldn't. We go with a goldfish.

I mean, they'll do whatever. If it gives them a pathway to try and bring down the ones they prefer to bring down. So I don't know. I've done a scientific, just from stuff I've worked with, far more often it's people than it is the inanimate objects. But they will use the inanimate object as a tool to try to get after people. That's really helpful. It'd almost be impossible to have a reliable scientific study that could really determine if it's haunted or not. There's just too many factors going on.

But the fact that you're having so many testimonies and having to deal with this over and over again points out to that it's probably larger than many people suspect. Yep. Can I get one more thought on that? What's that? I'll give you another thought on that. Okay. Sorry if I interrupt you. I mean, this is yours.

No, go ahead. I've had people say to me, do you see things increasing or decreasing with the demonic issues? And I said, oh, that's not even a close one. It's increasing. And if you talk, I talk, I still enjoy going to churches, groups, you know, and they want me to speak, you know, conferences and stuff. And if I've got other people that, if I don't like what they're doing, I won't agree to speak at the conference. But assuming, we got, we got different methodology, but we love the same Savior. We got the same Savior. here, we've got the same Bible, you know, we've got the same plan of salvation. I don't care. They're charismatic, non-charismatic, whatever.

To a person, if they know, if they've been working with this, I'll say it's increasing. You can't turn on the TV, you know, horror movies, horror movies. I mean, it used to be you could just ignore it and say, turn it off. We now get like Vista. They were just ahead of their time. The friendly spirits, it'll give you guides. And that's going on in my school. I'm paying for that stuff.

But I'm saying, here's what I think. This is my opinion. I think my generation, I'm older than you, Sean, by a bit. My generation was in the 60s and 70s where God is dead. As many sex partners as you can have is healthy. It'll make you a better, you know, drugs, especially LSD. That was the drug of choice, you know. All that stuff.

I am now dealing with the children and the grandchildren primarily of my generation. Oh, wow. And I think my generation was the one that said, let's start glamorizing, you know, the transcendental meditation, the spiritism. You know, it's not Jesus. I mean, if it's Jesus, you're just a fuddy-duddy. I mean, reading the Bible. I mean, come on. So start glamorizing any, I just said anything but Jesus.

And they believed it. Walk themselves into all kinds of issues. That's what their kids heard about. That's what their grandparents hear about. And I think it's been snowballing. And I think when you say, I have been asked by, I can give you the names if you want them, I don't care. I've been asked by seminaries, graduate stools, Bible school, denominational groups that 30 years ago said, we don't even want to mess with this.

The missionaries can handle it. I now have them saying, we've got faculty and students that got to talk. Will you come back in? Would you talk to us? That's happened more in the last, say, 20 years. than it did the 40 years I've been working with this combined. And I've said, I think it's because now it's all around you. And our kids are being inundated with this stuff.

And you've got people older than me, they're going, yeah, this is cool. Where are you on your spiritual journey? See, it's no longer embarrassing to talk about spiritual journey. But the more deals with, you know, spirits, I'm an ascended master, you know, whatever, guiding spirits, et cetera. Oh, man, that's cool. Where my generation, my grandparents would have said, I don't know what you're doing, but get to sleep.

We've got work to do in the morning. We're not messing with that stuff. Where people today are going, I'm just wide open and inviting it. Carl, I got one more question for you. We've been talking about kind of haunted houses, so to speak. And you said that demons prefer human beings over places, but sometimes they will go after places. I had a guest on, a friend of mine, Steve Dabs,

and we were talking about whether people can be demonized or not. And there's obviously differences about this. And I realize you talk about this in your book, Spiritual Warfare, in some depth. But what's kind of your quick take on whether or not Christians can be demonized? I would say if I was looking for a minimum, I would say scripture certainly doesn't prohibit it. And I would say, I believe there are scriptures.

scriptures that my brothers and sisters in Christ, who I love dearly. In other words, someone's position on where they stand with spiritual warfare is not a litmus test for their Christianity, you know, for their spiritual maturity, et cetera, et cetera. We come from different circles and a lot of people say I'd rather not even look into it. Just like I was thought, just kind of leave it alone and leave it from the missionaries. was usually kind of a standard thing. But so I know that that kind of thing, you know, can happen. But if someone said to me, did Jesus deal with demonic spirits?

Yes, he did. Did he deal where clearly context is with non-Christians? Yes, he did. Did he do it where context would indicate it was with a true believer? Yeah, I, you know, Luke 13, the woman bent over for 18 years. You know, this daughter of Abraham, Galatians 3-7 talks about when children of Abraham, wasn't a disciple of Moses, wasn't just an Israelite, wasn't a Pharisee. This daughter of Abraham has been bent over by a spirit for 18 years, and you're not willing to help her when you take care of your animals.

In other words, as a daughter of Abraham, and I've said, you know, I believe he was saying, she's one of the ones that believes in true Messiah as a true daughter of Abraham, because all of us that are in the faith are ultimately children of Abraham says the book of Galatians, right? Romans 4, 20 and 21. You know, God gives a promise. Abraham, Sarah laughs. Abraham says what God promises, God delivers. So I'll believe it. He promised an Old Testament, Messiah. Looking for a simple way to stay rooted in God's word every day. The Daily Bible Devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you connected with scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy daily Bible trivia and humor, a fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your faith.

Get the Daily Bible Devotion app for free on both iOS and Android. Start and end your day with God's Word. Search for the Daily Bible Devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store and download it today. In the Old Testament, people put their trust in that. On the other side of the cross, we get to see the one who is Messiah and put our trust, but it's still in the same one. So if someone says to me, yeah, that personally got, Paul, 2 Corinthians 12, Seven. You really like original languages. I'm not an expert in it, but I sure took five years of it and got more than most of the kids that I went to school with, you know, with languages because I wanted to be sure, you know, I could function in that. You know, an angel of Satan was sent to Buffett. He doesn't say I dreamed this up. Oh, I asked God three times that this thing would leave me alone. What? Well, he's already said it's an angel of Satan. That's a demon. No, God says, my grace is. sufficient, et cetera, but I'm saying, well, people that are involved with this clearly aren't

sincere about Jesus. I go, Paul wasn't sincere about his faith. How about the Second Corinthians 11, 1 through 4? I think it's very important and it's often overlooked. I'm going to paraphrase it. I'm your spiritual dad. Put up with me. I got something to talk to you about. You've been doing way better than you were in 1st Corinthians. You know, 16 chapters and I had to take you down in 15 of them and then say goodbye and 16. Every chapter. This one, nah, you've been doing good. You know, you actually responded, you know, but I want you to understand something. I'm your spiritual death. I'm the one who led you to Christ. Were they Christians? He says they were. You were walking in purity in your devotion to Christ. So he says they were sincere about their faith. So can't call

him a flake unless I say Paul doesn't know how to lead people to Christ or what it means to walk in sincerity faith. I'm concerned for you now at least, just as the serpent deceived, Eve in her mind. So when someone says to me, where do you think the primary battlefield is for Christians? It's in their mind. I don't think it's different for Christian or non-Christian. And they look at him in a rhetorical like, what are you talking about? He says, you're talking about Jesus, but it's not the one I preach to you.

You're now involved. You've received. Look at the laying spirits other than the one you had received. Well, which one had they received a conversion? Romans 8-9 says, if you don't have the Holy Spirit, you don't belong to Christ. You know, Ephesians 1, 13 and 14, we're sealed by the spirit when we believe. So he says, you're teaching a different Jesus. You're involved with spirits other than the one you had received.

And you're now promoting a gospel that I didn't preach to you. And then he says, you don't even fight. It's a passive in verse 4. You know, it gives a passive, you don't fight back. Their response is, what? Well, they said they were apostles from God just like you. So we thought we were doing a good thing. They weren't saying we want to follow the bad guys.

We thought we're getting even better. Paul was good. Paul helped you with some things. But man, we know more than Paul. Paul's an apostle, so are we. 13 through 15. How can all this be? If Satan prades himself as an angel of light,

why are you surprised that his emissaries promote themselves as apostles and teachers of righteousness? So when someone says to me, Christians cannot be involved with demons, I would say, well, 2nd, 11, 1 through 4, unless you're going to say it took genuine Christians walking with God, now talking about a different Jesus, a different gospel, and claim with spirits other than the one they received, I'd say, that sounds pretty serious to me. And Paul about being buffeted by an angel of Satan sounds pretty serious to me. Last thought.

Why is the book of Ephesians? Ephesians, I still say, I think it's one of the deepest books theologically in the New Testament. Three chapters, here's who you are. It's not because of you, it's because of Christ. Not your will, his will, et cetera. Three chapters. Four, if all that's true, what should it look like in church? If all that's true, chapter five, what should it look like at home, in your work, with your kids, with your spouse, etc?

And then chapter six, after I've shared all this with you, I really want you to understand your primary enemy is not flesh and blood. It's principality's powers of darkness, and you've been given some armor to be. able to help you deal with this. If Christians didn't have to deal with this, why would we need armor? When I go to 2nd Corinthians 10, 3 through 5, we have been given divinely powerful or empowered weaponry that takes down strongholds. I believe that's bondage. I believe that's demonization. Destroyes empty speculation against Christ. I think that's questions and false teaching. So make sure you take your thoughts captive to Christ so you don't get caught up in bondage or false teaching. And I'm saying, when I see people in the New Testament that had to deal with it,

and then when I see no one running from it, I mean, the apostles didn't run from it, Jesus didn't run from it, and then we're given armor and such, and then verses that seem to go contrary to where I was taught, I was never told to look at verse like that. I was just always told it's only non-Christians if they get involved anyway. And I said, just leave it. Don't worry about it. I'm saying, no, there's too much in there that would say to me, maybe I need to do some homework.

And then once as a pastor, speaker, teacher, whatever, you have someone walking in where you would say, my idea of they're being saved, I don't have any question. If they're not saved, no one is. Now, God can see the heart. So maybe I'm totally buffaloed. But after 40 years of this, I go, I didn't get buffalo that times, you know. And yet they're going, same kind of story. Carl, my body is not a temple, it's a prison. And I say, what do you mean by that? I mean, you're not a Christian. God doesn't love you. You look like a fool following Jesus. Your prayers bounce off the

ceiling. Why do you read your Bible? You're too stupid to get anything out of it. If God ever loved you once, he doesn't anymore. And it just won't turn off. You can have someone say, well, that's your self-talk and you're just beating yourself up. Maybe there are some sadomasicists love doing that. But I've met too many godly, wonderful brothers and sisters in Christ go, I love Jesus, but I'm getting, my brain is a battlefield. I say, welcome to the New Testament and welcome to spiritual warfare. That is a great word, I think, to wrap up on Carl. I appreciate your time. I appreciate your passion.

Thanks for being in this four decades and just speaking truth as boldly as you are. I want to recommend your book to our viewers and listeners. It's called spiritual warfare, Christians, demonization, and deliverance from our guest, Carl Payne, and that's P-A-Y-N-E. Folks, before you click away, make sure you hit subscribe because we've got some other topics on this, spiritual realities and spiritual warfare. If there's something on angels, demons, or anything in the supernatural that you'd love me to talk about on this channel, please let me know and we'll take a look at it. And if you've thought about studying apologetics, we'd love to have you at Talbot School of Theology. We've got online and in-person master's degrees you can take. And we just released our new certificate program, by the way, totally redone after 20 years,

some of the best thinkers in the world on defending the Bible, why Jesus is the only way, problem of evil, etc. Discount code below. Take a look at that. Carl, thanks so much again for your time. Really appreciate you joining me. It's a privilege, Sean. I want to sneak in two more things. You can whack them. You can edit them if you want or keep them if you decide you up. Okay, brother. Number one. You know I deal with an apologetics conference. I have said so many times Talbot School of Theology has got the strongest program on apologetics in the country.

I have sent so many people your way when they ask me because I absolutely believe that to be the case. That's number one. Number two, your dad, maybe you get a lot of this. I don't know. Your dad is the reason when I was about an 18-year-old kid when I had just become to Christ, and my family, very academic. Dad was a professor. Mom's a teacher. Brother, you've lost your mind, whatever.

Your dad was the first one that said, Carl, you don't have to say, you just have faith and faith and let them run you over. It's like you can know what you believe. You can know why you believe it. you can provide reasonable answers for reasonable questions. I started chasing into answers because, I mean, humanly speaking, God would do what he was doing. Your daddy let me know it was okay to study and that the object of my faith is what makes my faith real, not just because I have faith and faith, but the object in Jesus Christ is the object of faith and he'll stand up under scrutiny.

I'm telling you, God use your dad to change the direction of my life. Oh, my goodness. There's about zero chance I'm going to nix that. But thank you for sharing that way. I know you had a lot of affection, appreciation for my dad, as I do. But I hadn't heard you share it quite like that. So that's powerful. Thanks for your work and it's humbly think that my dad's ministry and life echoed through you,

all the people you've ministered to as well. So love you, brother. Thanks so much for coming on. Love you, too. God bless. Thanks for the privilege. I'll see you later. Hey, friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that follow button on your podcast app.

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