The Sean McDowell Show - The Unseen Realm Explained: Spiritual Warfare, Nephilim and Judgment of the Gods

Episode Date: February 20, 2026

What if the “supernatural” parts of Scripture weren’t the exceptions… but the assumed backdrop? What if we have been reading the supernatural part of Scripture wrong? In this conversation, Joel Muddamalle will unpack the worldview behind The Unseen Battle (building on Michael Heiser’s The Unseen Realm) and ask a provocative question: Have modern Christians unintentionally normalized a naturalistic reading of the Bible? *Joel will also return LIVE on March 24 at 4:30 PM PST to take questions, objections, and challenges—especially for those engaging Michael Heiser’s work for the first time. READ: The Unseen Battle, by Joel Muddamalle (https://amzn.to/3ZOUaG7) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [smdcertdisc] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org   Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

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There are some ideas and terminology and frameworks to how we read and understand the story of Jesus that have become normalized, that we just kind of gloss over it and we lose the significance of the impact of, like, this is the cosmic Christ. If that is so true and that is so crucial to what we believe, why would we want to intentionally or unintentionally strip the spiritual reality, the cosmic reality of the rest of the scriptures? Joel Mutamali, you've written a provocative new book called The Unseen Battle, which builds on Michael Heiser's enormously influential and best-selling book, The Unseen. scene realm. We're going to get into the book. I found it fascinating. I found it eye-opening.

It was enjoyable. But I want listeners and viewers to mark their calendars because you're coming back live with me, March 24th, 430 p.m. Pacific Standard Time to take questions, challenges, clarifications on your book and also on the work of Michael Heiser. So mark your calendars. If you're a Heiser fan or if this is the first time, join us because I get a ton of questions about this. And I don't always know how to answer it. Not that you have all the answers, but you knew Michael personally. And so let's just jump in. Who was Michael Heiser?

And why has he had such a massive and lasting impact on the church? Yeah. I mean, there's so much to say, Sean, about Mike. Michael Heiser was a PhD in Hebrew Semetics languages and scholarship. And he was a Hebrew Bible nerd. He truly loved the scriptures. He was a husband, a dad, a granddad. And one of the things about Mike that you need to know right off the bat is he was one of the most obnoxious Green Bay Packers fans that you could have ever, you could have ever met.

And in all of that, Mike cared deeply about reading the Bible on its own terms and its own context. And being a Hebrew Bible guy, he really wanted us to understand the Bible in the context of the ancient near Eastern world. And so that's what he dedicated his life to. He wrote many books, The Unseen Realm, which he just referenced, is probably his most prolific. book in terms of reach and influence, but he also wrote books on the inocic tradition, a book called Reversing Herman. He wrote a book simply called Angels, all about angelic figures and demons. And, I mean, his footnotes could be a book of themselves. And so he made a pretty big impact on me in that way. So I've done two shows on Heiser, and they're two of the most viewed and engaged

shows that I've done. Yeah. He really was a revolutionary thinker. I don't think. I don't think. I don't think it's an overstatement to say that. Even people not convinced by his arguments have to pause and say, maybe he got something right, or a lot of things right, and maybe I'm underplaying the supernatural element in the scriptures and in our present, which is what's important in your book. Yeah. Now, how did you first come across his writings? Because I remember the first moment somebody told me about him, I could come back to that. So tell me when you were introduced to it and how his writings influenced you. Well, I think what's so interesting about what you just said, actually is I was one of those individuals that actually was pretty skeptical, if not straight up

disagreed with Mike on his worldview and his biblical kind of take, particularly when in comes to Psalm 802. And so I came across Mike, actually, we both worked for a Bible software company called Logos Bible Software. I know you're very familiar with them. I use it. I literally promote their stuff. Almost every day, I literally use their software. Same. Same. They launched a product called FaithLife.com. and Faith Life Study Bible. And so they brought me on to kind of be a product manager for that. And so with the Faith Life Study Bible, one of my jobs was to read through all of the essays

and the articles. Well, Mike was scholar in residence at Logos Bible Software, and he wrote a majority of those articles. Here are a lot of those footnotes and study notes. And I came across Psalm 82 because I'm thinking, hey, what should we promote as we're going to read Psalm 82? And to be frank, Sean, I was like, offended. offended. I'm like, wait a minute, is this guy actually suggesting that the sons of God in Psalm 82 are divine beings?

And then I was like, if he says that about Psalm 82, what does he say about Genesis 6? And so I flipped over to Genesis 6. And then I'm like, he thinks the sons of God in Genesis 6 are angelic. Angels can't have sex with human women. Like they can't. And I mean, my level of panic had really kind of increased. And so I I can't believe I did this. I'm kind of young as well. Kind of knew my career. I sent an email to the CEO, Bob Pritchett. I sent an email to the editor. And I'm like, I've got some concern. You know, just very, just, I was a punk kid, to be honest, Sean.

And then I got up. Mike's office was, if you've been to Logos Biles Software, there's a flat iron building. I had, yeah. And there's this cool spot where there's like all these games and books and food and everything. Well, Mike's office was right there. And so I'm up one day and I see Mike's door. open and I was like you know what I'm just going to ask him about this and I kind of walked in bratt I just gone down with my seminary degree from Knox Theological Seminary so I'm kind of newly minted

is your master's or your PhD my master's I just got done yep a master's of theological studies so I'm kind of thinking I'm walking with my broad shoulders you know walking in and right behind him this is very important right behind him is a sign that said um reserved parking for Hebrew scholars. So here I am, you know, freshly minted with my Mets degree, walking in. And I was just like, Mike, I've got some real concerns with your take on Psalm 802. And, you know, and I don't think we can promote this. I think that the biblical world, the evangelical world is going to call us heretics. And I think we've got to protect the brain, all this stuff. Mike smiled. And he looked at me and he said, huh. So what do you think the sons of God are in Psalm 82? He's like,

come and sit down. And I was like, you know, and that, I would say Sean was one of the most significant interactions I ever had with Mike because he confronted, I would say, my pride and arrogance with a posture of humility. And that humility has been like the mark for me, as I've thought about theology, as I've gone on to do PhD studies and all of that has been, gosh, I don't want to trust theologians and scholars and pastors who do not walk with a limp. And, and Mike really just was like, hey, let's walk through this. And we walked through the text. And I was confronted with my own kind of idiosyncratic kind of ideas about the text that were told to me that I had kind of been justested and just believed about it versus trying to identify where does the text itself say that on its own terms.

And so that was kind of the first thing. And so then Mike and I worked together for years. I was kind of convinced of the Dude Army 32 worldview and his angelic view. I was confronted. Which we'll get to, by the way. People are like, what are you talking about? We'll get there. We'll get there.

We'll get there. And then we parted ways. I went to go work for a gal named Lisa Turkhurst. She is an incredible Bible teacher and an author, and she is the president of the ministry called Proverbs 31 Ministries. And, yeah, I went to work for them to bring oversight to theological development and research. One of the kind of deals, though, was I needed to get a Ph.D. along the way.

And so I started a PhD program at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. So I'm really a theological mutt, if you've caught on to this. By now, an undergrad at Trinity Life Bible College, which was charismatic kind of assemblies of God, a master's degree at Knox Theological Seminary, which is Presbyterian, and then a PhD at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. The only thing I haven't done, Sean, is Anglican,

which I'll probably hit postdoc workers, or at some point I'll do that. But I get to my program, and then I'm thinking deeply about kind of the chaos that's happening in our world, as we're working through different seminars, particularly the image of God upon humanity. I'm Indian. You know, my parents are immigrants from India here. So I'm the child of immigrant parents and grew up in a kind of confused situation

in the streets of Chicago trying to figure out my own identity and kind of thinking there's so much more to the chaos that's happening in this world, not just outside of the household of God, but even within the household of God. And then I came across Paul. and his letter to the church in Ephesus and his kind of household terminology, which is what got me to thinking, I think Paul has in mind much more than what I've traditionally thought when he's referring to the household of God. And I had to start thinking about advisors. And so my first reader, this guy named Dr. Patrick Shiner, a brilliant New Testament scholar,

great work on the ascension. And also, you'll love this about Pat. I knew that I wanted to ask him to be my first reader when he walked into one of our seminars. with a pair of Jordan once. Love it. He had a pair. He had like the suit coat on the whole lens,

but he had a pair of Jordan ones. I'm like, that's my guy. And then I was like, I think I'm going to ask Mike, but Mike didn't really take any PhD students at that time. He was, Uncudan Rum had done really well.

So I was like, I'm just going to shoot my shot. Let's see what's the worst that can happen, you know? Let's go. Sent him an email, kind of a brief thesis. I think that the Greek phrase

Oikas Taut Theo, I think it means more than just human family. I think Paul has in mind a cosmic family. And Mike responded. He's like, you're absolutely onto something. Let's do this. And so that is how he became my second reader.

And I built my dissertation really off of kind of the Deuteron 32 worldview. And then sadly, we can get into this as much as you want or as little. I had submitted chapter three of my dissertation when he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. I have the text message because I'm thinking, hey, he's going to have to bounce out. He's fighting for his life. And he messaged me and said, don't even think about getting an second reader. I'm going to see you through this. And that's what happened. He, we figured out a rotation. I submitted my chapters when he was in chemo because he was

bored and that was the perfect time. The week after chemo was hard for him because that was when his body was kind of taking the toll. So he would send me off in pictures of just him sitting, you know, in his chemo chair, working through just, and when I say working through my just, incredible, incredible. But honestly, he wasn't nice to me. He just really ripped me apart too. So that, you know, that didn't help me at all. In fact, I think that he had more time to look at with detail on my argumentation. And so I defended, and a couple of years later, he passed because of the pancreatic cancer. But in an interesting way, my theological kind of career has bookended these two incredible scholars.

I was Mike's very last PhD student that he saw all the way through. And I was actually Patrick's very first PhD student that he minted with the PhD. That's fascinating. Well, there's a few things. Just his response, I got to highlight this. Student comes in and he goes, let's talk. That shows confidence. Yeah.

Shows humility. It shows a commitment to the scriptures above all. That's just a model that literally convicts me right here going, how many times does apologize do I get defensive and not just invite that conversation? Beautiful. I interviewed him on demons and I reached out and I said, hey, could we do an interview on Angels? Email me back and he said, he goes, I'd love to do it.

I'm going in for an appointment to check on the cancer. And it turns out it was the one which he found out it was basically fatal. One of my regrets is like, why didn't I just reach out sooner? He would have done it. Just wanted to give him space. But what an incredible example that you have to interact with him in that way. I love it. Let's get in the book.

And in the book, you frame this. You talk about how. the supernatural reality of the Jesus story has been normalized. Yeah. And you kind of ask the question, what if we took off our kind of naturalistic Western lens and looked at this within the culture in which it existed and actually understood it, what would take place and how does unseen battle approach this? Yeah.

So I would kind of ask a question, and this is what really convicted me. So I'll ask it to everybody who's watching listening in on this. and you can kind of play this out with me. I want to make a statement, and then Sean, tell me, you know, kind of fact check me on this, that the core of what you and I believe as followers of Jesus as Christians,

you know, followers of the way, that we would say that this is foundational for our belief system, that we believe that Jesus is the son of God, that he is 100% God didn't lose an ounce of his divinity, took on humanity upon himself through the incarnation,

was born of immaculate conception through literal virgin birth, lived an actual perfect literal life that he defeated sin and death through death itself, died on a literal Roman cross, went into a literal grave, came out of the grave three days later, and then just for the fun of it, I think, hung out for 40 days, you know, to prove the point to a whole bunch of people as eyewitnesses, and then ascends to the right hand of the father, which is where he sits right now, reigning and ruling. Like, what part of that, Sean, is not cosmic in nature? See, I love this because you asked that question in the introduction.

And I paused before I read further because I'm like, I know he's setting me up for something. But what is he setting me up for? And obviously, I don't want to steal your thunder. But you just basically explain the gospel, the root of who Jesus is, what he accomplished. And so I want you to land this plan. I don't want to steal your thunder because this is a really important point that sets up your book. Yeah, there's not an ounce of it that is not cosmic in nature. And so what I think has happened is there are some ideas and terminology and frameworks to how we read and understand the story of Jesus that have become normalized in such a way that we just kind of gloss over it.

And we lose the significance of the impact of like, this is the cosmic Christ. This is all of what Ephesians and Colossians is talking about, the reigning and ruling cosmic reality of the King of Heaven and Earth. And then my question is, if that is so true and that is so crucial to what we believe, why would we want to intentionally or unintentionally strip the spiritual reality, the cosmic reality of the rest of the scriptures? Because it's almost like we act like we just needed right here in the story of Jesus. And then everything else we can allow our 21st century kind of modern industrial revolution, mind, post-enlightenment worldview to kind of just answer all of the questions that we have everywhere. else because in a way they're a threat to us or we're uncomfortable with the cosmic impact of that. But don't mess with the Jesus part of it. Like we got to keep the... Maybe Elijah, maybe Moses, but those are the exceptions. Maybe acts when the church started, but it's not the

norm is what you're getting at. Yeah. And the real big part of it is... Marriage was never meant to be effortless, but it was meant to endure. Tried and true is a scripture-centered marriage guide for couples who want a marriage-shaped. by faith, not perfection. I'm Dana Shea, the author. In this book, I explore 12 imperfect biblical marriages, stories marked by struggle, waiting, failure, and restoration. Rather than offering quick fixes, tried and true helps couples to understand how spiritual intimacy and emotional connection grow through hardship, not the absence of it. With biblical insight, reflection, and guided conversation, this book meets couples in the long middle of marriage and points them toward lasting hope.

Available now at tried and true marriagebook.com or find tried and true everywhere books are sold. This was the norm. This was the worldview of the ancient near eastern world and the Greco-Roman world of the New Testament. And God is sovereign. And in his sovereignty, he chose to give us the written word, the canon of scripture today within human space and time through human authors that he divinely is inspiring and guiding and leading and we get personality from the human authors, right?

Like we get a little bit of, I think, the sarcasm of Paul as he's writing, and I think Paul's a little bit passive-aggressive in his writing, which makes me really happy, you know, because it gives me a little bit of encouragement, you know? You get John, and every time I read John, I just kind of think, like, man,

he'd be one of those friends I really love, but it's always annoying me because he's always pointing out like how much he's like the pet. Like, you know, he's like the best friend of G. And like, but you get the personality and that is so important to us. And why would we want to miss that when it comes to the Bible, particularly the first five books of the Old Testament, Genesis Exodus, Leviticus, numbers and Deuteronomy that Moses, we believe, traditionally penned the Torah. And it's like, hey, in these books lies the cosmic storyline of scripture.

And this is actually the battlefield that, we enter into within our worldview today, why would we want to be disconnected from the story that we have stepped into? I love it. So I want to tie together what you're doing with what we do here. So you're kind of to fly from the East Coast, sit down with me at Talibu's School of theology. We have an apologetic program. Yeah. And so we've noticed naturalism coming with a critique of miracles, a critique of the soul, a critique of the existence of God. We spent a decent amount of time critiquing those who critiqued. the worldview outside. In part, you're saying, we do it to ourselves by not letting the supernatural

cosmic element of the Bible that's right there if we just see it speak for itself. So in some ways, naturalism encroaches in the church through non-believers and skeptics and atheists and through Christians who unwittingly adopt a normalized naturalistic worldview. Let's go to the text and take a look at. Now, one more. question you've said a lot of things that if people are still with us probably have that thought you had originally like wait a minute the family of god what are you talking about the household of god are we talking about gods that exist now we're going to get there the deuteronomy 32 worldview what on earth is that but i want to read something that you said that i think is intentionally provocative

against the heart of your worldview you write this early on something that may be surprising to us is that humanity was not alone in the garden of eden now you don't mean that you don't mean the snake, you don't mean the animals. There were other family members of God also present. What do you mean? And how does that line up with kind of the ancient Near East worldview at that time? Yeah, I mean, there's a couple things that's happening here. One of them, Sean, is often we take imagery that's present in the biblical context, and we, again,

either intentionally, unintentionally impose our modern 21st century worldview. So, for instance, the idea of a mountain, I don't know about you. I think of a mountain. I'm like, oh, cool, that might be a great Instagram space. spot, we can go on a hike. You know, it's like, oh, that's fun. Yeah. The mountains and the ancient near Eastern worldview were, it was understood as the meeting place of God and humanity. Think about all the Greek myths, right? You've got Mont Olympus. You've got this idea of the council of the gods that take place on these peaks. And one of my basic fundamental thesis kind

of ideas is the best narrative has always and will always be the biblical narrative. It really is. This is what gives the fuel and the steam to the myths of the nations. is they realize like, hey, why would we recreate the wheel? Let's just plagiarize the one true story, but then spin it out in a way that's actually deceptive. And so right off the bat with Eden, you find that Eden is actually on a mountain. And Eden on a mountain, you've got these rivers that come down. You've got Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 that explicitly give us the sense that of the holy garden of God that is on top of a mountain, Mount Eden.

And so, like, why is that important? because in the ancient near-eastern world view, the mountain tops were the place where God would plant a garden, and the garden would be the place where he would reside with his family, with his loved ones. This is true not just for the deities of the ancient near-eastern world. It was also true for the human kings of the Mesopotamian time period, the Babylonian time period. And so it would be common for them to plant gardens and to have their families together and to enjoy it. One of the details of the Edenic story that I think is so fascinating. is that it was routine, Genesis 3 tells us.

It was routine for Yahweh to walk in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve. And then the detail is, in the cool of the evening breeze. Well, why? In the cool, the evening breeze, because it was after the day's work had been done. And so now here you come, and then the Hebrew word, I won't get too into the details on this, but the Hebrew word for walk there does not have a destination in mind, right? I confession, Sean, I hate going on walks.

Like honestly, it's like I did, I'm a hooper, so I love hooping because there's like a goal. We had time. I know. I was talking to your son, Scotty. Like, I was like, I've got the itch right now. But like my wife, we've been here for 16 years. That girl loves to walk. She loves to walk for no reason.

That is my wife. I mean, and so after 16 years, I have learned the way to love, show my love for my wife is when she says, hey, babe, you want to go on a walk? I'm like, the flesh is saying no, but the Holy Spirit is telling me you better get out there on that walk. And so, like, go on a walk. And for me, it's a destination. go do a cul-de-sac, be done.

For her, it's not. So when we are done, I'm done, I look at her, hey, babe, are we done? And she's like, no. Well, why? I'm like, I don't know. And I'm like, all disappointed. The aim and ambition of that walk for the two of us is very different. For my wife, the aim and ambition is about the intimacy of conversation from the starting point to the end point.

But for me, it's just purely about the destination. That Hebrew word for walk in the Garden of Eden has nothing to do with a destination, and it has to do with a leisure, walk that one would have with the ones that they love, which you think what is God doing? He is king and father.

And these two kind of duality roles play itself out in Eden. And then the question of, well, who are these other family members? Have you ever wondered, Sean, why does Eve not freak out when the serpent shows up? I totally agree with. It's such an obvious fair question. And you're like, there's a serpent, the serpent

is talking. Like, forget what the serpent says. Let's start with what is going on right now. And once again, the ancient near eastern world view would help us in this moment because in the Greek, in the, actually the Hebrew myths, particularly in the Mesopotamian, Acadian kind of worldview, whenever animals started to speak, this was an inclination that something cosmic supernatural was happening, right? Kind of a telltale sign. The other interesting detail is that the Hebrew word for the serpent is the Hebrew word Nakash. And that word has in mind

kind of three things. It has in mind a literal serpent. It also has in mind a bronze or fiery image which actually echoes back to Isaiah 14. And it also means guardian cherub. So a cherub was a throne room guardian, right? Interesting detail. What is placed outside

of Eden to protect Eden after Adam and Eve fall? Guardian cherubing, right? So why does Eve not freak out when she sees the serpent? Maybe it's because it's not about the appearance of the serpent. It was normative for cosmic supernatural beings to come to and fro and to be in the garden house of God.

But, you know, what was odd for that supernatural being to cause doubt and dissension about the truth and identity of who God is. So this is actually spiritual warfare. Spiritual warfare is an issue of discernment. It is discerning, Charles Pergin has this great quote. It's the discernment between not just what is right and wrong, but between what's right and what's almost right. And so here the serpent kind of gives, the Nakhash kind of gives just fragments of truth, but actually is aiming at despoiling them and causing rebellion to take place. And so you've got that, once again, you can go to Isaiah 14, you can go to Ezekiel 28,

which lets you know that in the Garden of God, you've got these cosmic supernatural beings. And these stories parallel other ancient near eastern stories. You've got the epic of Gilgamesh, which kind of interesting, there's the Cedar Forest, that is the entrance into a mountain. That mountain is where the God resides, the gods reside, and there was a jewel forest that actually made that mountain inaccessible. So just in your own time, think about that story. Now read Isaiah 14, Ezekiel 28, right?

There's another Sumerian story of Enki, which you find this story about a gardener, the gardener of the gods. And so some people might right now, Sean, be like, wait a minute, did the Hebrew Bible rip off the ancient near Eastern stories? like which one is the true story? I want to, you're a hoops guy. This is going to apologize at a question.

Okay, you're a hoops guy, right? Yep. Sean, who's the goat, MJ or LeBron? Well, you and I are going to agree on this. I read this in your book. My son would make a case for LeBron, but I'm going with MJ. Okay. And here's how I land it.

Yeah. If I line up and I say, I'm playing five on five, there's no one on the planet I ever pick over Jordan, end of story. Done. That's my case. But go with your point. Okay. So I find this fascinating.

Do we have any evidence of MJ ever saying that he's the goat? No, he's actually ironically a little bit more humble about that and lets other people decide in a way LeBron claims to be the goats. Okay. But make your point. This is fascinating. The one true story doesn't need to be defended. Agreed. The one true.

I mean, why? Because the story's there. Because it has truth in and of itself. The simple fact that LeBron has to go around all the time it feels. It's kind of nauseating on. about like why he should be the goat or why he's got that status, actually is an inclination that there is a contrary story to that one that is being presented. And so this is all imagery, illustrations break down at some point,

but I'm using this as a way to point us back to what's happening in the Hebrew Bible. The Hebrew Bible presumes the one true story. And along the way, and we're going into into this with the Dude Army 32 worldview, there are competing stories that are being told that just have vested of the truth, right? Like, they just sound almost good, and yet there's clearly some issues that are there. For instance, LeBron jumps ship to every other team just to win a championship. You can't hold yourself.

I'm critiquated. It just bubbles over with you. It just comes out. Okay, so I'm with you on this. The key point is just because there's similarities doesn't mean borrowing. That's right. The Bible's written a certain culture in a certain language at a certain time, and that can help shed light on what's going on in the scriptures.

Yeah. That's what you're doing. And the technical term here is that I would argue that these opening pages of Genesis are a polemic. There are an argument against the competing narrative myths because as these myths have come into existence, now we've got to create a correction to it, which is why, you know, like the last stance came out. But I'm going to stop. I'm going to stop. So let's do this. That helps.

Let's walk through four passages. Yep. I'm going to ask you to give just the brief, concise interpretation, because I want people to come. connect these together. Yeah. And then we're going live Tuesday, 430. If somebody's not convinced by these passages, raise your objections, we'll go into more depth there. Yeah. But tie this together. You argue Genesis 1-26 when it says, let us make man in our image. What do you think that means? Okay. So I want to start this because really we're continuing the argumentation of does God have a heavenly family, right? And that's right off the bat, people are going to be like, wait a minute,

I've never, right? So again, let me argue from the text for why I'll hold to that. Look at Ephesians 3, 14 through 16. For this reason, I kneel before the father, from whom every family, look at this, in heaven and on earth, derives its name. So explicitly inside of the text, right? You have the context of God who is father, not only is he father, but he has a family. These families are present in both heaven, the heavenlies, right? and on earth. So you just exegetically are going to have to figure out, if God doesn't have a two-family household, how do we deal with that? Okay? But let's go to Genesis 126. So Genesis 126 is this kind of phrase,

let us make man. Now, I'm going to be honest, this is the view that I used to have. I helped for a really long time until I really got into my dissertation work. I came from kind of a systematic theology background, you know. And so most systematic theology books, when you come across Genesis 126,

they're going to say, the let us is an indication of the triune god, right? Is an indication of the Trinity. I know there's probably going to be a question later on that is going to be like some differences that I might have had with Mike. We can kind of earmark this as one of them, which is I am not,

I don't think that it's necessary for us to create sharp distinctions and say, Genesis 126 has nothing to do with the triune God. Yeah, that's fair. Because God is ontologically triune. Right? He's present. Father, son, and Holy Spirit are present in the creation moment.

100%. The question is, does this verse teach? Teach that. Yeah. Okay, so the, I don't want to get into too much of the nerdy Hebrew grammar. You can go to the footnotes in my book for this when I kind of work through it in Genesis 1, 2, and 3. But the idea here is that you've got what's referred to as a plural of majesty that's taking place, that when God makes the statement, the let us, it's less of. about him in his Trinitarian nature and more about placing him as king in a council in the midst

of a heavenly host and an assembly. It'd be similar, Sean, to, I've got four kids, 14, 12, 10, and then five. And so I've been in the room every time that the kids have been born. It'd be similar to my wife when I walk in to the, you know, the room. She goes, let's do this thing, right? And I'm like, yeah. And then guess what? She does it all. I have no way. I have no. part. My only part is to hold her hand. And when I hold, I have arthritis in my right hand because she just crushed my hand throughout the pregnancy. Like, like, but she, she does the whole thing. But she uses a plural we, like let us do. It's an acknowledgement of all of the people that are inside of the room. Now, every analogy breaks down. So don't, you know, don't read too much into it, but it's an example to say,

okay, what's happening here? And you've got actually church history on our side in the sense of you've got Philo, from early as Philo onwards. Who's Jewish for people not tracking. Yeah, and Philo is not just Jewish. He's roughly around the same time of Jesus. He's living, you know? Mid-first century. Absolutely.

And he's taking an incredibly important work of taking Hellenistic thought of the time and contextualizing it to the Hebraic worldview and thought. And so we should pay attention. One of the arguments against this is like, well, Philo's not a Christian. Well, of course, he's not a Christian, but does that mean that non-Christians can't give us, like, really incredible, important insights? I think that helps your case, actually.

I don't think it hurts it. Yeah. Okay, so I want to make sure people are making the connections here. So when God says, let us make man in our image. Need a daily spark of hope and direction? Let the Daily Bible app from Salem Media be that spark. This free Android app delivers an uplifting verse each morning, plus reading plan, Devotions and trusted podcasts from leaders like Joyce Meyer and Rick Warren.

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and begin your day with hope, purpose, and peace. Obviously, God is the soul creator doesn't need angels or animals or the point you're making this household of God who is present. He's announcing this to them, just like your wife says, let's go. She's the one who does all the delivery and the hard work here. And the grammar, this is so important because it's going to be misconstrued, the grammar affirms this because you go from a plural we of Genesis 126 to a singular act, a singular verbal act of creation. in Genesis 1, 27. And then it's extremely explicit. Then God singularly creates Adam and Eve

in his singular likeness and image. So the grammar reinforces the idea of a singular creator, maintains a creator-creation distinction, while leaving room for the fact that he's not by himself. And actually, there's a passage in Job that we're going to get to that actually reaffirms this, but we can get to that later. So far, you're saying, in the creation moment, there's animals that are there.

Yep. But he's referring to this household of God, other gods, not Yahweh's lesser kind of divine type powers, which we'll get to. I don't want people lose their mind. You're not teaching polytheism. That's right. So we see this in Genesis 1. Connect the dots with Genesis 6. And this is a huge passage, but just make the point about how you believe this indicates a household of God and advances your case.

And again, we can come back in the question-answer and unpack that crazy passage. Yeah. But keep the thread going. Okay, so this one is difficult because it requires us to do a little bit of biblical theology here, particularly in the Hebrew Bible. So in areas of confusion, we want to go to passages of clarity in order to reinforce it, right? So where does the Hebrew phrase, Sons of God, most explicitly clearly show up? It actually shows up in Job, right? Right off the bat in Job, one and two, and then again, later on.

where the phrase, sons of God is a, the Hebrew phrase is ben-a-elohem, and it refers to angelic beings who are in the divine throne room of God. Okay, so if that is the indication there, then when we look at Genesis 6, we have to have continuity of our hermeneutical method, of how we study and read and interpret the scriptures. And so what does this mean? Some have argued that the sons of God is what's called a sethite view, a human rule. rulers view. I want to give just a couple reasons why this is for me coherent. Before we come back to the sethyte view, this is the passage in Genesis, where the sons of God have sex with the daughters of men. And the question is, is there a natural interpretation? These are rulers or humans or is it supernatural? And if it's supernatural, then the sons of God might be a part of the family of God

who have gone wrong. Yes, exactly. That's the basis. Yes, that's really good. And remember, this shows up as the precursor to the flood. Now, I grew up in a church, been in a lot of vacation Bible schools. The flood is like the most famous, like, right? It's like the Hollywood top five, like, themes to do. I don't know about you. I never seen nobody do a story about the Nephilim.

Ever. Right? Like, nope. But why are we ignoring Genesis 6 1 through 4? You know the flood is kind of horrifying if you actually think about it. 100%. But I digress. Keep going.

100%. And so. How do we make sense of Genesis 6, 1 through 4? So the view is, well, there's a naturalistic view to it, which is the Sons of God are the lineage of Seth. It's called the Sethite view. The challenges to this, just for sake of clarity, the Hebrew word Adom is a catch word categorically for humanity.

And so now you have to suggest that the first time Adam is used in Genesis 6, it's referring generally to humanity. But then the second time that it's used, it's now being used specifically of Kainite women. Right? And because the idea is that it's the holy line of Seth, right? That now intermarry with the unholy line of Kane and his daughters, which creates chaos.

But the problem is we have to find exegetically, one, where are the line of Seth referred to as sons of God? throughout the rest of the Bible. You won't find it. It's not there. So that's an issue. The second issue is we're imposing the idea that the ungodly that the women are ungodly because they come from the line of Cain, which once again is not found in that verse or anywhere else that I can find. Now, maybe somebody can do a Google search or chat, GPT, and find it, which you should, and you should write a PhD dissertation on that, because that would be, you know, crucial to this conversation. The next issue is the Nephilim. Who are these Nephileem? And they're discharges. And they're

described as giants. That's the Greek term for Nephilim in the Septuagin as Gygos. So these massive individuals. The question is a question of coherence. Why would human men who would marry human women produce gigantic beings, right? Like there's a chemistry, biology question that's over here. So the most coherent response for me would be that we look at sons of God, We look at other places that the phrase Sons of God is used, most clearly in Job, which is of angelic beings. And then we say, oh, Sons of God, they have an unholy union with the daughters of man. The nature of that union, we would suppose, is having sexual relations, which produces these hybrid beings, unclean beings, which are really, I think, the origin story of where you get Hercules and where you get Achilles and where all these other Gilgamesh, you know. kind of are rooted from. And I think that that is a coherent end. In Genesis 6, Sean,

there is a worldview that has already understood that you know, have been disconnected from, that I think the biblical author, Moses, doesn't feel the need to fill in the dots for because the people of the time already knew it. And this is where we get into the in-knocking tradition. We're not even given details about it, right? Like, it's just placed there, like you said, as if we would know what's going on and it moves on. Yeah, like, and we can do another illustration for that. I said earlier, who's the greatest MJ or LeBron, but who did I mean by MJ? You meant Michael Jackson, clearly.

Right. See, so he, I mean, you already... Magic Johnson. I mean, yeah, so the context helps us. LeBron, MJ, you know, what do we mean by goat, greatest of all time versus a furry animal? See, you and I are doing this consistently, 500 years from now, maybe even a thousand years from now, people are going to have to figure out what that statement means, and they're going to have to use context and clues and other writing. They're going to have to figure out. That makes sense.

This is what, and so for us, when we're thinking about this, I think we have to remember that the biblical authors are presuming a narrative, a story that was already pre-existent. They just didn't feel the need to fill in those dots because as soon as they say, Sons of God, daughter, they're thinking Mount Hermon, the Watchers, oh, we know what happened with the giants and the unholy union, and that's what takes place. Okay, so let me connect with people what were talking about. You're saying in the beginning, in the Garden of Eden, there was not just human, beings, there were these gods, which we're going to get to.

Yep. And when God says, let us make man, he's kind of announcing this. So he's not just starting an earthly family, as a spiritual family. Get to Genesis 6. And these sons of God are these supernatural beings who have rebelled against God in some fashion. We're not given when or how that happened. Right.

But the Nephling come from their union with human women. And so now you have this household of God. Some of them have gone bad and rebelled. Let's take it one step further. One more thing about Genesis 6, which is very important because once again the Bible has to interpret the Bible. So you have both Jude and 1st Peter that are actually quoting back and drawing on this Genesis 6 story. And the way that they quote the story, once again, they presume the Anachic tradition, that Second Temple literature, is actually playing into that story. So now you have to deal with that is why would Jude and Peter be thinking about these angelic beings and chains and Tartarus?

And then really making a direct quotation back to Genesis 6. And once again, presuming that we know the story, the Genesis 6 is already kind of embedded in. So I just want to give the biblical connections. That's great. Okay. So again, people watching going, how does Enoch fit into this? Put your questions in there. We're going live Tuesday because we don't have time right now to go into the depth.

And I know we could probably spend, we can spend multiple hours. I need one of these issues. I'm trying to draw some threads for people. Really glad you brought that in. You referenced Job a couple times. How does Job 38 just advance this general point about the household of God? Yeah. I mean, so Job 38 is kind of important for us because in Job 38, I can kind of summarize it for us.

Job 38 points out to this moment where God asked Job, like, yo, where were you? That's my translation. You know, like, like, yo, where were you? So, Joe, I'll just read it. Where were you when I laid the earth's foundations? Tell me, if you understand, who marked off its dimensions. Surely you know, who stretched a measuring line across it, or what were its footing sets, or who laid its cornerstone?

And this is the key. While the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy. So this is an indication that lets us know at the beginning of creation, as God is giving this masterful brush stroke by just breathing everything into, you've got an audience that's just like, God is hitting Homer's right and left. Like everything he does, the sun is brilliant, the moon, the sea, and then the peak of all of creation is humanity.

And that's when these angelic beings are shouting for joy, which for me, if we go back to Genesis 126, and we go, well, the let us, it's like, it almost feels like God's like, yo, just watch what I'm about to do. Check this. And then he goes and he does. And then everybody goes, who, you know.

Which they should. Which they should. And so once again, we're finding intertextual connection points. And Job, while this is somewhat debated today, what we can know is that it is a very early writing in terms of dating and publication, which should tell us something. Okay. So what's important about this is you're not just saying, I'm going to some passage in Job tree back into this. Verse four says, where are you and I laid the foundation of the earth? Joe, or God is speaking to Joe, referring to.

back to the moment of creation. And verse 7, this is the ESV, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy. So this advances your argument to raise the question, who are these sons of God? Are they angels? Are they deities? We're going to get to that. But hopefully people are making a connection.

Okay, one more, and the way you connected that was great. This is a hugely important passage is Psalm 82. We could do an entire episode on just Psalm 82. And this was the passage that messed up Mike, you know, when he read it for the first time in the Hebrew Bible. And so Psalm 82 is really important. And how we handle Psalm 82 is going to have direct impact on what you do with Genesis 6. And then what we do later with Durrame 32, 8 through 9. I'll just read the text.

It says that, I'm reading from ESV, God has taken his place in the divine counsel. So explicitly, you have reference to God who's king in a council, right? in the midst of the Hebrew word here is Elohim. I want to be important. There's precision matters in this, okay? Elohim is a categorical term for a disembodied spirit. One of the things that Mike did really well was he had these little catchphrases where he would say, Yahweh is Elohim, but no other Elohim could ever be Yahweh.

That's great. So this is not polytheism. This is not co-creation. This is not heresy. This is an idea that you have the, uncreated creator who creates different types of beings, one type of those beings that are actually flesh out in different ways are spiritual beings. So just the simple fact that their spiritual beings means that they have the categorical term Elohim. In biblical grammar, context determines

usage. We get a little bit freaked out because we take an English word like God and we create an entire definition around it and now we impose that English gloss. back into a Hebrew term, and we panic because we're like, that's not, and it's like, wait a minute, let's go in the right trajectory. What did the Hebrew term mean? So, Elohim, God, singularly, has taken its place in the divine counsel in the midst of the gods. This is plural.

So you have to have a singular God in the midst of a plural assembly. And then this is the indictment against these Elohim. How long will you judge unjustly? So you've got an issue of injustice. And then how long are you going to show partiality to the wicked? So you're favoring the wicked people, right? And then he's like, this is what you should have done. Give justice to the weak and the fatherless.

Maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. You were to rescue the weak and the needy, to deliver them from the hand of the wicked. And then he says about these beings, they have neither knowledge nor understanding. They walk about in darkness. All the foundations of the earth are shaken. And then like, if you just think about this theatrically, can you imagine this moment where the high king of heaven then kind of declares upon them, I said, you are gods, Elohim. You are sons of the most high.

That phrase, Sons of the Most High, is syntactically connected to Bene Elohim, which is Sons of God. So you've got familial language about Angel. Want to keep God's word with you wherever you go? The King James Bible Study KJV app by Salem Media makes it easy to read, study, share, and pray daily with the timeless KJV translation. Enjoy features like offline access, audio Bible listening, smart search, and tools to highlight bookmark and take notes. All designed to keep your Bible studies simple and organized. Best of all, it's free to download in the Google Play Store. Grow in your faith every day.

Search for King James Bible study, KJV, and download the app today. I said you are, God, sons of the most high, all of you. Nevertheless, and this is the consequence. Like men, you shall die and fall like any prince. And I love verse 8, and this actually advances my thesis in the book. The last line says, arise, O Elohim, judge the earth, for you shall inherit all the nations. Sometimes I think we think of Jesus, like he's just hanging out in a green. room waiting for his grand appearance in the incarnation, right?

It's like, nope, he's active, he's there, he's working, I hold that the angel of the Lord appearances thought the Old Testament is actually the pre-incarnate Christ. And right here, who is this Elohim? It's almost like, in a theatrical scenario, you've got a figure who's standing off-scene, off-set, and the entire time he's listening to this corruption and this chaos. This is all played out through the minor prophets, right? Amos and Micah, and at the very end of it, here's God the king who says, arise O Elohim.

And what is this Elohim to do? To inherit all the nations, to draw the families of the earth back into the one household, which is where they were always to belong. The big objection to this is often, well, no, this Sons of God phrase refers to human rulers. Well, there we can go into a lot of details on this. One of them is there's a guy named Julius Africana, who is one of the first individuals in the medieval time period earlier than Augustine. who suggested a set that view for Genesis 6.

And then also kind of suggested because of that view, you're not have to correlate that to Psalm 82 to create cohesion, right? Augustine was famous for the same thing. Augustine suggested Psalm 82 was human rulers. But the problem with this is a couple things. One, human rulers, the Israelite, religious rulers, were never given jurisdiction over the nations. That's a really good point.

Right? So now you have an issue. And the second one is, just a question of coherence. why would it make any sense for human rulers to have the consequence that they should die like men? This would be like me, Sean, saying, hey, Sean, you know, the consequence for you not eating for 24 hours is you're going to be hungry. Like, what? Of course I'm going to be hungry. Can I challenge you on this one? Because I was reading your book. And I thought if it's speaking to sons of gods that have authority, like kings, they would kind of assume that they're not like men.

Right? So I say, you're going to die like men. It's basically saying, you're ordinary. Your power and your throne doesn't give you any power against death. You're going to die like all other men. How would you respond to that? I would respond to, I think that's a good pushback. I think that's a great pushback.

I would just say, but what does it mean to die like men? And how is that phrase used elsewhere throughout scripture, especially in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28? It talks about the consequence for this angelic being being sent down to. shield to Hades. So there is a literal, there's a literality to it of a spiritual being who changes status from being, you know, unlimited or having some kind of

immortality, whether it's condition or non-conditional, but there's consequence to it and it's a literality of death to it. And I think there's other passages of scripture that suggest, you know, this is what you're waiting for Revelation 4. You're waiting these these angelic beings and Tartarus are waiting to be transferred into the lake of hell, into Gehenna, right?

Gehenna, the lake of fire was prepared for who? Angelic beings, you know? Yeah, exactly. So I would just say that's a good, good pushback, but I just think that when we're reading it through the rest of scripture, it just feels like this isn't just a gloss term

of saying, hey, like men, you're going to lose power. Yeah. It's like, no, no, no. Like men, you're going to die like they die. Like, there's a literality to their death. Which I think is totally fair because even, I mean, every king that's ever lived before Jesus died like every other man. So do they really need to be reminded of that? And the context is God has taken his place in the divine counsel.

Counsel. That's the way Psalm 82 starts. So suggesting more here about the sons of God. And there's a connection back to Job 1 and 2. In Job 1 and 2, the sons of God are present in a divine counsel scene. before the Hasatan shows up. And so once again, you've got this same idea. This is similar to Micaiah,

where you've got Micaiah having this vision in the First Kings 22, where he sees a host of heaven that are sitting to the right and the left of God. You find this in Isaiah 6 or the seraphim, Daniel 7, 9 through 10, where the ancient of days takes his seat on a throne, and there's holy ones that are attending him. So once again, the contact, seems to be a context of a divine counsel cosmic scene, and we would have to make some kind of shift where we would say the first half is that, but the second half is human rulers.

Okay, so this is helpful. Let's go back to Genesis. Okay. Because if you ask somebody, tell me about the rebellion in Genesis, it would always be Genesis chapter one. You talked about this. The rebellion would be, of course, Janus chapter three with the fall. We talked about Genesis six now.

where we have the human family maybe rebelling in Genesis 3, and then the divine family rebel, these sons of God in Genesis chapter 6, create the Nephilim, which is their offspring. Yep. Say there's a third rebellion in Babel, and these three rebellions tie together this broader story. Yep.

That in the New Testament, when we look at spiritual warfare, they're tying these threads back together. So one more rebellion. Tell us what's important in Genesis chapter 11, of course, the Tower of Babel, and how that's kind of fits in the larger story you're telling. Yeah, so Genesis 3 is household rebellion internally. Genesis 6 is about a transgression of domains. You've got these sons of God who are a lot of this is what's happening in the Inocchio literature, and they transgress, they transgress their domain. Genesis 11 is going to be an issue of allotment rebellion.

They were given a task to do, and yet they are devious about it. So in Genesis, and you're like, wait a minute, where in the world do you even get angels from Genesis 11? So Genesis 11 is a story about the Tower of Babel, kind of one of those famous stories. Genesis 10 directly that precedes it gives you the table of nations.

There's a scholarly debate on how to read Genesis 10 and 11, whether 10 actually chronologically happens after 11 or, and then it's just placed before it it as kind of like a prelude. I actually don't think that's the case. I actually think that Genesis 10 should chronologically be placed before it,

because of the one lip of Genesis 11 verse 1, the anthropological kind of idea here is this concept called the lingua franca, which is the one lip to kind of rule. It's like the one ring to rule them all kind of thing. Right now, English is kind of that. I was in India, Sean, like in August of last year with my family. Dude, everybody spoke English.

It was wild. It was like in the main city, everybody spoke English, you know? So you had the one language. What happens here is the people go into rebellion, because they have an aim and an ambition that is not in connection with the task and the vocation that was given to them. They were told to go out and into the world, right? To expand the goodness of God out and into the world,

not to build a monastic society. They get to a plane. Well, a plane has a problem. What is the problem? There are no mountains on planes. But we talked about earlier that mountains mattered because mountains is the place where God and humanity met. So where the people do?

They attempt to build what's called a Z. Ziggurat Temple Tower. In archaeological digs today, you find them all over the place. And the Ziggurat was actually a house of the deity. This is really important once we get into Ephesians. At the very top of the construction was a home, the deity would come down to. And at the base would be the place where the priests would be, and there would be a staircase that would go all the way to the top.

So what are the people trying to do? It's actually a little bit twofold. One, they're trying to force God's hand to force him to come down simultaneously in their own aim and their own ambition. And instead of making a name for God, they say, I want to make a name for myself for ourselves. Huge, right? So whose fame are we about?

And so they go up to try to force God to come down. Really fascinating. The exact same phrase in Hebrew of let us in Genesis 11. God says, let us come down, right? It's a copy and paste from the Hebrew of Genesis 126. So right there, we have a plural of majesty, we, right? You have the host of heaven. that are connected now based off of Genesis 1 through 26,

and then you have the diversification of the tongues of Genesis 11. Well, what happens? The one language that knit them all together is taken away. So imagine if, Sean, you speak German, I speak Delugu, the people who are listening in, they all speak, I don't know, French, but we all speak Hebrew together, right? But Hebrew is taken away. Who are we going to hang out with?

They're people that speak our own distinct languages and will probably spread out and into the world, right? That's exactly what happens, Genesis 11. The rebellion is a rebellion of pride and selfish ambition. God deals with a rebellion and still institutes his mission, which is ultimately the expansion of his image out and into the world. So even in the midst of rebellion, God is going to have his way in and through it, right? Now we get to this odd thing.

You have a Marvel shirt on, which I love. I wore it intentionally because there's different gods or superheroes. It was a little of the backdrop. No, I love it. In fact, I kind of think it's hilarious. We watch, my family watch the Eternals, you know. And the Eternals, it's horrible. But you know what's even more horrible is there's no creativity.

They're just ripping off the Mesopotamian myth. Like, they don't even change the name. They just call Tiamit, you know, which is like the sea dragon of the Babylonian epic creation story in the new Milesh. Anyway, side note. So I loved Iron Man. I loved the early movies. And I remember being in the theater. And I remember after, I can't remember which Iron Man it was.

but it was when they found Thor's Hammer in the end scene, right? The whole theater lost its mind. Everybody is like, oh, my gosh, look what they're doing. I kind of read Deuteronomy 32, 8, and 9 as the post-credit scene of Genesis 11. Okay, now let me cut in. Before we get to Geronomy 2, I'm going to keep narrating this because I don't want people listening to get lost in some of the details here. So God creates, and he announces in Genesis to his divine counsel, and to, arguably to angels as well, but it's not just a human family.

There's a divine family. Then there's the rebellion in Genesis chapter 3. You get to chapter, and that's a human rebellion against God. Yep. Get to Genesis chapter 6. Now we have these divine beings, whatever they are, these sons of God, having sex with the daughters of men, this Nephilim, you know, evil lineage comes out of this. There's a third rebellion in Janus'i's chapter.

where they're trying to force God's hand, make a name for themselves. He splits up their languages, so they spread out according to their language and people tie together, which in some ways when he said, multiply and fill the earth in Genesis 1. So exactly what's happening. Through their evil, he's accomplishing their means. Then Deuteronomy 3289, let me read it. You can tell us what you think is happening here. It says, when the Most High gave to the nations.

their inheritance when he divided mankind, which is Genesis 11. He fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. But the Lord's portion is his people, Jacob, his allotted heritage. So he seems to divide the peoples according to the sons of God, but the Lord has his people, which of course comes next in Genesis 12 with Abraham. We'll get to that. What is going on, Duranmi 32, and how does this advance? your case. Okay, so why is there so much chaos in the Old Testament? What is going on with,

what is going on with the conquest issues in Joshua? Why is David dealing with Goliath? Like, what, why is it so important throughout Libyth? I just, just reading my Bible reading Libythus 19 and 20. Like, have nothing to do with Molek, you know, and child sacrifice. And if you even, this is so wild, Sean, I don't know, I'm listening to the Bible this year for the first time. And I don't know, I didn't catch this. Even to those that observe child sacrifice and say nothing about it are condemned. Okay? That like that'll preach.

You see evil. You do nothing about it. You're held accountable. Like you have a responsibility. So where does all of this come from? What is the origin story of this? Deuter Army 32, 8, and 9 is the origin story for it. In my book, Duncein Battle, I refer to this, and I'm drawing from Heiser's work,

the Deuter Army 32 worldview, which actually, I think, puts in perspective the nuances and the cosmic conflict that's taking place in the Old Testament that Jesus comes to deal with in the New Testament. So what happens here in Durham 3, 8, and 9 is you've got the origin story of the rebellion of Babel and you've got the nations that are dispersed. But what Durham 328 and 9 lets us know is that God is still a loving God. You actually find this, and all through rebellions all the way through, is in the midst of human chaos and rebellion,

is a kind and compassionate God who remains just and shows compassion and mercy in the midst of that justice, right? These two, these things are working together. Well, the same thing happens here. God doesn't want the peoples to be left alone unattended, right? And so he says, hey, and my language is very important. He allots to them, these sons of God, as stewards or guardians of the people. Okay?

It is delegated responsibility. Delegated responsibility. And they're part of the divine counsel. They have vocation and responsibility. This is an important role. Now, some of you, when you're reading your Bible, depending on which your translation, like CSB, I think even NIV, you might be like, Joel, my Bible doesn't say sons of God, right? Which you're right. So this is important, and I kind of get into the scholarship part of it.

In the ESV translation, which Sean, you and I read from, you'll notice there's a little footnote right next to Sons of God. And it says, compare Dead Sea Scroll or Septuagint. It says Maserotic text say, Sons of Israel. So a very quick study on this, because I don't want people to be like, is this dude like, you know, lion or is. Is he like making up stuff and now can we not trust the Bible? No, that's not it at all. What actually happened is you have the masoretic text, the Hebrew text of the Bible, and in the masoretic text, you have a textual emendation, a variant.

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It says, Sons of Israel. Lots of scholarship on why that phrase was used. I think. tend to think. It has to do with the good ambition, the good desire to preserve monotheism, later in scribal history. Okay. The challenge that we have is the Septuagint, the Hebrew Bible translated into Greek, which actually dates earlier than the Masoretic text. The Septuagin actually has the Angels of God here. There's a brilliant New Testament scholar named G.B. Kaird, who reading the Septuagin goes, wait a minute, something happened here in the Hebrew Bible. There's probably an alternative reading, and the most accurate reading should be Sons of God. What's fascinating is Caird made this note in his New Testament theology book prior to the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

When the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, it affirmed Caird's hypothesis based off the Septuagin and affirmed the Septuagin reading because the Dead Sea Scrolls are dated much earlier than the he way or the Masoretic text. And I mean, then you go, oh, the overwhelming weight of evidence is that the accurate reading here is sons of God. The textual earlier evidence, Septuagint, and Dead Sea Scrolls, weighs the sons of God. Yes. Okay. Important.

So did I miss anything on Deuteronomy 32 that's key? Yes. The Lord's portion is his people, Jacob, his allotted heritage. So he gives the nations over to stewardship, but he keeps a people in and unto himself. this is why Genesis 12 matters. My Hebrew scholar friends, I always argue with them. One of them is a dean of Hakeem Bradley. He used to work for the Bible project.

Hakeem, shout out to Hakeem. He's a Hebrew Bible scholar guy, and he and I debate this all the time because he's always like, Hebrew scholars love Genesis 1 through 11. They're like, Genesis 1 through 11 recapitulates the entire story of the Bible. You got to know, right?

Because it's so tough. Yeah. So I kind of push back. I'm like, yeah, why do you always ignore Abraham? I actually think it should be Genesis 1 through 12 because 12 bookends and gives the solution to the issue of the rebellion of Genesis 11 and Genesis 12, I know you want to get here,

is the promise that God makes to Abram out of Erv the Chaldeans by way of Huron. Okay, so that's important because you said in the rebellion in Genesis 11, they're making a name for themselves. And God is like, nope, I'm going to divide your language, divide you up into a lotted portions,

according to the sons of God, which you suggest, and again, we'll get to this, that there's a certain gods of these realms. So this changes the way we think about spiritual warfare. And again, we'll get back to that. They rebel against God. So now there's God's nation of Israel. And part of the spiritual warfare is what makes them distinct and right and true in contrast with these other nations and people groups ruled by other gods.

But what God says to Abraham, it's the reverse of Janus Xenesis 11, I will make your name great. Yes. Make that connection and why where he's from is so important. Yeah. So you've got the gods of the nations. There's a great scholar named Dr. Block who wrote a book called Gods of the Nations. And if we're in like a seminary class right now, I'd kind of try to draw this out for you in a triangle that you've got this idea in the ancient near eastern world where you have the god or the deity. you've got the people and you've got the land.

So what Durham 3-2, 8 and 9 lets us know is that the allotment is gods, these deities, that are connected to land, which is connected to people, which is what is creating chaos all the way throughout. You know, it's like God has a plan for Israel

to give them the promise, and the promise it's occupied by other people, and now that they're going to have to do war. This is the whole Egyptian narrative, right? God is not just dealing with the Egyptians explicitly throughout Exodus. It's like, and I'm going to deal with their God, as well. Each of the ten plagues is aimed at one of the gods of the Egyptian pantheon. It's

kind of fascinating. Now, why is this all important for Genesis 12? In Genesis 12, we've got the story of Abram. Abram is said to be called from Er of the Chaldeans, and then he makes a pit stop in a place called Heron, right? Why is all this important? Genesis 11 is a story about the Tower of Babel. That project falters and fails, but a civilization still comes up in that area. And what is that civilization? It's Babylon. It's Babel. Right. Fascinating. Irv, the Chaldeans, if you plot it on a geographical map, is roughly the vicinity of Babel. So what does God do? I think this is like so genius. Yahweh says, oh, out of the epicenter of rebellion, I'm going to call one family to be my family as a missional witness to redeem and restore and to rescue all the families

of the world, right? And this is where you get the Abrahamic covenant of Genesis 12, Genesis 15, 17, and 22. That's restated. Why are Erd the Chaldeans and Haran so important? Here's why. Abram goes out of Erf the Chaldeans, but he makes a pit stop in Haran.

When Abram goes out of Erv the Chaldeans, he's got two people with him, his family members. He's got his father, Tara, and he's got his brother with him as well, right? Nehor. What's really interesting is, in Heron, he pit stops, Tara and his brother dip.

They're like, we're not going with you. And Abram has to follow the call of the Lord by himself. Why do they dip? I make the argument in the unseen battle that the gods of the nations are still active. And in both Erdogans and in Heron, there was a massive temple to the moon goddess sin. And there is this idea that if you leave the land

that is protected by the deity, you leave the protection of the deity. and if you leave the protection of the deity, now you're vulnerable to the other gods, the other spiritual beings that are out there. And so for Abram to follow the call of Yahweh was so, this is why he's called a man of faith because he is turning his back literally,

and this is what spiritual warfare is, turning your back literally on the spiritual beings, the gods of the nations, that want to elicit your worship, that want you to put your trust in them, and it says, no, I'm going to follow Yahweh. The Hebrew word shuv, which is the word that we have for repentance.

It means turning away from evil and turning towards God. The problem with the Israelites consistently is they love to turn away from one evil. They just turn to another evil. Exactly. And so what Abram models for us is no, and then the Abraham covenant is so vital because now, through the people of Israel, which come out of Abram, there is a plan and a path for the nations of the world to be subsumed back into the family of God, right? consequence for rebellion, but a path for restitution and restoration.

I love it. Amen. So God's rescue plan through the person of Abraham is to become a nation that will bless all nations because God loves all nations and wants to restore all nations. Okay, so in some ways, fast forward to the time of Jesus. Yeah. And you've got, and of course, a generation or two afterwards, you have Christians called atheists because they will not worship these other gods. They weren't atheists like materialists or naturalist. They worshipped God. And they were called atheists because they wouldn't worship the local gods.

Okay. So that really plays into the kind of idea that you're talking about. But the pushback is, okay, wait a minute. Are these gods actually real? So 1 Corinthians 8, 4 through 6. I know you deal with this in the unseen battle. But while I'm reading it, I read Hyder this, went through my mind. mind a bunch of times. It says this, Paul writes, he says, therefore, it's the eating of food offered

idols. We know that an idol has no real existence, and there's no God but one. Although there may be so-called gods in heaven and on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us, there's one God, the Father from all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through all things and through all whom exists. Seems like he's saying, these gods or idols have no existence, we talk about it, but really there's one true God. How would you respond? Yeah, I would say that's a good observation, and I think that we need to read the text for what it says and do our best not to impose something that the text itself is not

saying. So in the ancient, once again, worldview, I think this is why that context actually really matters, there's a sense that there's a distinction between the idol, which is representative of the deity and the actual presence or the ontological truth of that actual deity. And so what Paul is getting at here in 1 Corinthians 8 4 through 6 is the absurdity of the presence of an idol. And this, he's actually echoing back to Isaiah and Jeremiah in other places where it's like, you know, you fashion out of a piece of wood, an idol, you sit by a fire, you do all this work, right? You worship and bow to it. And then you throw the same piece of wood back into a fire and it burns to keep you warmer to cook your bread or to like, it's mocking it.

It's mocking it, right? So there's a difference between a claim of non-existence versus the claim of non-superiority or non-comparability. And so what's happening here in 1st Corinthians 8 4 through 6 is a claim that says the idol itself, which in that world view was the house of the deity. The idol itself has no power. That's a thing that can be tossed. This is so unlike Yahweh, right? which I actually think is one of the reasons when God early on is like, I don't need a house,

don't build me a house. Like all other gods of the nations, they all need houses and that's not, like I don't need, and even when the temple is created, the temple is not technically a house. It's the footstool of God, which I actually think is a fun,

like, little passive aggressive jab at all the other gods of the nations, you know? So this is the one thing. And again, we need to read 1 Corinthians 8, 4 through 6 in light of 1st Corinthians 1020. So what does 1 Corinthians 1020? 1020 says, no, I implied that what pagan sacrifice, they offer to demons. So just a couple chapters later, Paul says, but hey, demons are real, right?

So the idol itself is useless, meaningless, makes no sense. But don't forget this. No, I implied that what pagan sacrifice, they offer to demons and not to God, not to Yahweh. I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons, you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. So why would Paul talk about an object that, you know, or spiritual beings that have non-existence, but then say,

actually, no, what you're doing is a question of allegiance, because now you're showing your allegiance. If you've been baptized, if you've been, you know, you take communion, like if you're showing these symbols of allegiance to Yahweh, but then you participate in offering food offered to demons, this is an issue. And so, There's actually a sense here where, yeah, the idol itself is meaningless. It's nothing. It comes to ruin, but that doesn't reject the ontological reality of the spiritual beings behind it. Okay, so it says there may be so-called gods in heaven on earth.

He's not saying they're so-called because they don't exist. You're arguing it's almost like an insult to these gods. They are just not the real God. They pale in comparison to the one God. the father whom all things come. So it's not a claim about non-existence. It's more of a claim about comparison. Non-concarability.

There's so-called gods because they got nothing on the ones you've got. Yeah. Is that fair? 100%. I mean, you've got language through Deuteronomy, like Deuteronomy 435, in Deuteronomy 64, that talks about the phrase that there are no gods beside me. This is usually an objection to like this whole idea of gods. But we have to use this terminology, how it's used exegetically throughout the rest of

those passages. So you have a saying in Isaiah 47, 8, which has the same literary and immediate context of Isaiah 43, of there are no other gods beside me. But in this one, it's a statement of Babylon saying there's no one beside me, the city of Babylon. Like, oh, there's no one beside me. But clearly this doesn't mean that that's a statement that there are no other cities exist. It's an issue of comparability. The same is done in Zefaniah 215, which makes the exact same claim about the city of Ninnom.

And so this is exaggerative language. This is intentional to point at the creator and the creation distinction and say that there are no other gods beside me is to say there are none that can compete, compare, or even be in my same sphere of existence. They are created things. I'm the uncreated creator. And all these other gods, lowercase G, are created things and belong in that category. That's an important distinction. By the way, have you done a deep dive on like 1st Corinthians 8 and 10 if most scholars agree? with you on this?

Is this, I'm not saying it's determined by numbers, but is this a fringe view, or is this a pretty accepted view among scholars of 1 Corinthians 8? Or you're like, Sean, I haven't done a deep dive. No, I mean, it's been a while since I've worked on this, but for the most part, this is a pretty popular view on that. So there are definitely some scholars who would disagree with it, but I think if you look at a whole list of New Testament commentaries on Corinthians, then you're going to see this as a very viable view.

So there's precedent for it and people debate. Okay. Yeah. All right, at this point, I know some people should be tracking with us and probably have more questions than when they started with. Put him in the comments. You can email me questions at shawmcd-dot.org. We're going to go live at 430. We can go back to Genesis 6.

We can go to Deuteronomy 11. We can go to Job 38, the Deuteronomy 32 worldview. But right now, let's kind of shift to what this means if you're right about this. What this means. So, like, how should we? think differently about spiritual warfare? If there are these gods that exist in different realms of different peoples, how does that change our approach? Yeah, I mean, I think one, we have to ask, well, what does this mean about the cross? Like, what does this mean about what Jesus came to do?

And I would just read Ephesians 2, 18 through 22, which is the thesis of my book, for through Christ, through him, we both have access in one spirit to the father, paternal language. So then you're no longer strangers and aliens, but your fellow citizens with the saints. The Greek word they're saying in Sahagyas, I think often we just think of humanity. That same word is used of angelic beings. I actually think Paul is playing a little bit of a play on words here of saying, hey, you're members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets, Christ Jesus himself, being the cornerstone in whom the whole structure being joined together grows into a holy temple and the Lord. in him you're also being built together into the dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Why is all this so important? Because what happens to the powers? So there's a lot that we haven't even gone into, which is Paul's language of powers, principalities, and authorities in the New Testament. They are categorically similar beings to the sons of God of the Old Testament. And the reason why we can draw that conclusion is a grammar connection to Daniel chapter 10, which is the Prince of Puritan. the Prince of Greece, you've got geopolitical warfare, which is what puts Durham 32, 8 and 9 on our map on display for us of these gods of the nations are working behind the scenes.

And then the language of Prince, the Septuagint, and even more consistently, the theodotian text, uses Archon for Prince, Prince of Persia, Prince of Greece. Well, that's the same word that Paul is using when he's talking about the powers and principalities. Right. So in Paul's mind, I think he's actually a good Jewish boy and he's drawing back. Want to keep God's word with you wherever you go? The King James Bible Study KJV app by Salem Media makes it easy to read, study, share, and pray daily with a timeless KJV translation. Enjoy features like offline access, audio Bible listening, smart search, and tools to highlight bookmark and take notes, all designed to keep your Bible studies simple and organized. Best of all, it's free to download in the Google Play Store. Grow in your faith every day. Search for King James Bible study, KJV, and download the app today.

And his Hebrew roots in that context. And so why does this matter? Because at the cross, the dark powers are stripped. Their legal kind of allotment to the nations, their ability to blind the nations, has now been stripped away from them. They can no longer keep the people in bondage and to keep them away from Yahweh. Every battle shone has a prize. every battle has a prize.

So what is the prize for the cosmic battle that you and I are in? It's always the people. It's been about the people. It is about the people. It will be about the people tomorrow. If you just open up your social media today and you look at the amount of chaos that's taking place in our world,

from politics to social justice issues, to even the chaos inside of the local church, this is all a fight for people and their love and their ambitions. and so like what happens at the cross. At the cross, Jesus disarms the dark powers and he takes away their ability to blind the nation. So how does this impact our spiritual warfare?

This is where I probably differ from some out there that are very passionate about like demon exorcisms and power encounters and deliverance ministries. Now, I think there's a place for that, but I think we need to think about this normative and non-normative. And what is normative? What is normative is the gospel? This is why in Ephesians 6, Paul gives us language of defense to stand that we're equipped with these tools so that we can take on the onslaught of the fiery darts of the enemy.

Nowhere in the scriptures, particularly through the pastoral's, do we find like this command for believers to be demon hunters, right? Like to be exorcist hunters. And I think there's a reason why the command given to us is the Great Commission. go and make disciples. It is the very rebellion of Babel in Genesis 11th. They were not doing taking the name of God and the image of God and spreading it out into the world. It is an affirmation of Acts Chapter 2 and Pentecost, right?

Which, funny thing, if you look at the list of nations in Acts chapter 2, that mirrors the list of nations in Genesis chapter 10. That's amazing. There's a parallel. There's a reverse of Babel. Yeah, and it's reinstituting the Amen ambition always for the people. And so I would say how this reframes how we think about spiritual warfare is that it puts us back into our goal and into that momentum of gospel proclamation that we ought to proclaim. This is Colossians 113.

Every time somebody goes from death to life, they're transferred from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of God. This is what Ephesians 2 18 through 22 is saying the temple of God is constructing. At the Tower of Babel, it was bricks and mortar, and they're trying to force God to come down. But in Ephesians 2, 18 through 22, it's fascinating. It's a temple structure. But this time you don't have bricks and mortar. You've got the nations of the world. And now we're not forcing God to come down.

God lovingly desires to indwell the people of God as this holy dwelling place. And now we're a royal priesthood. And so I think it causes us to faithfulness and proclaiming and preaching the gospel to live it with our life and to speak it with our words. all the places of the influence that we have from the car line waiting to pick up your kids to your vocation in your office

to your, and I think this is a big one today Sean, through your actions on social media, your comments and your lack of comments, how you position yourself, that posture of humility of, you know, trying to point people to the goodness of Jesus.

And so I think all of these things are part of spiritual warfare, but it would be a miss for us to bypass past gospel proclamation so we can deal with demons. In fact, when we do gospel proclamation, you're going to deal with demonic things anyways, you know? Interesting. So some people go, oh, I'm disappointed because like these videos, if I do something like talking with an exorcist or somebody who had a demon aside, I'm like, we are drawn to this and it's fascinating.

It's like, here's evidence of the supernatural. And in some fashion, it is clear evidence of the supernatural. You're saying there's a place for that and we need that. but sharing the gospel itself is a part of the unseen battle and proclaiming the authority of what Christ has accomplished on the cross and the resurrection and engaging in this cosmic battle so it's almost like we think well demonic experience that's supernatural what comes to sharing the gospel and loving our neighbors we don't view that as being supernatural you are like time out if we knew what was going on not visibly, we would see that that is a spiritual, supernatural,

cosmic encounter. That's a radical shift. Your inviting is just to see differently. Yep, absolutely. That said, this is one of my favorite takeaways from your book. I always like it when people tell me that, whether I intended that or not. But you're talking about how going back to these rebellions, what the rebellions do is they divide us in God and they divide people.

And so when we fast forward to the New Testament, Paul's multi-ethnic church now is the reverse of that. And of course, we see it in Ephesians, and the theme of Ephesians is about unity. So why would the unity within the church amidst our differences be such a part of the cosmic battle we need to engage in today? Yeah, this is Ephesians chapter 3. It talks about the mystery of Christ, you know. So in verse 6, the mysteries that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. And then if you go down to verse 10, it says, so that through the church, this is wild.

So that I think the most important proposition in the Bible is the preposition through. You know, it's necessary for the Israelites to go through the Red Sea. They experience the power of God. they've got to go through the wilderness to meet the provision of God. Through the Jordan. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So look at this. So that through the church, the manifold, the Greek word there, polypocusid,

is the same word in the substitution that's used of Joseph's color, a code of many colors. It has in mind a beautiful array of flowers, right? So that through the church, the manifold wisdom of God might now be made, this is wild, may now be made known to the rulers and the authorities. Who are the rulers and authorities? These are the fallen sons of God of the Old Testament in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose that he realized in Christ Jesus, our Lord.

And so as you and I are faithful in proclaiming the gospel, as we embody the Abrahamic covenant of Genesis 12, 15, 17, and 22, as the church continues to grow in a multi-ethnic, multicultural, multi-generational reality, as is applicable in the context and the location that you're at, this is a wintsome witness to the dark powers. It is a reminder to them every day of their failure at the cross. One of my favorite passages is in 1 Corinthians where Paul's like, if the rulers and authorities knew what they were doing, they would have never sent Jesus to the cross, right?

I love that. And it's almost like, I think of it, I'm a biblical theology. I love to think of reversals. I think of it of Haman and Mordecai. It's almost like a throwback to that. You know, Haman's like, I'm going to get Mordecai, and I'm going to build a gallows, and he's going to die on those things.

And in the end, he gets hung on the very gallows that he created. And I just think about the dark powers, like all the way back from Assyria and Persia. And like the Romans don't invent the cross. They just perfect the death of the cross. But there's this thing called a cross that has been almost implanted in human history to be the ultimate sign of defeat.

and of disaster and devastation, and all the while Jesus has marched the cross, the dark powers working through human systems and structures, the Pharisees and Sadducees and the Roman government. It's like, we got him. And in the end, the dark powers were hung themselves on the very cross that they tried to hang Jesus on.

And so why does the multi-ethnic church matter? Why does unity matter in the church today? Because it puts on display the victory of Jesus. Amen. And I would just, as a word of pastor, caution, suggest when we intentionally or unintentionally participate

in activity that is unbecoming of the people of God that creates division and dissension, we are in a way hindering the proclamation of the gospel. Because I think there is a world that is desperate to know, could

the story of Jesus actually be true? And the first century church, the church in Corinth, the church in Galatia, the church in Ephesus, the wildest thing about that church was, you had people who hated each other but different ethnic, cultural, and social backgrounds that all of a sudden, because of their love for Jesus, came together, and Acts Chapter 2

had everything in common and gave to all the believers as they had in need. It's like, man, like, that is like spiritual warfare and in a very real tangible way that breaks into our world that I don't think we should overlook. I love that. That is a sober warning because I actually mourn how divided we are as a church.

And everyone's going to go. agree that there's some issues we should divide on and some issues we shouldn't divide on. But the way we divide and the failure to divide on essential issues is where I think Paul would pull his hair out and would just mourn this. You know, you mentioned Marvel movies earlier. Avengers chapter one, the bad guy is Loki. Yeah. Who's the Satan type figure. He possesses people, wants earthlings to worship him. Yep. And of course, his strategy is to turn the Hulk against the Avengers. Because that they're fighting each other, they can't fight him. I don't know if they did that intentionally or not, but I'm watching this going,

whoa, wait, I mean, even at the end of that one, Iron Man's willing to lay down his life. He doesn't, but it's foreshadowing what, of course, happens in end game. Exactly. That's, that reality is right there in the scriptures, and that is a cosmic battle we're involved in. I have two more questions for you. Here's what we're going to do. We're going to wait on these two questions until Tuesday. I want to ask you about if there's this divine counsel.

Yeah. How should we think differently about heaven? Yeah, yeah. Don't answer it right now. I'm really curious about that. I also want to know where do you disagree with Heiser if you do? Why? But I want you to bring that back Tuesday.

Folks, watching, listening to this, write down your questions. If you have challenges about Heiser, if something we've said today, you have objections to it. By the way, I was just doing a little search while we were talking. If you search like Deuteronomy 32 worldview critique, all these articles come up critiquing it. So I'd invite people to watch this. Pick up a copy of your book. Bring your tough questions and your objections.

We might not settle at all, but we will try to clarify and bring some understanding to this. And if this, of course, is after Tuesday, you can go and find that Q&A, and hopefully it would be helpful to you. Make sure you subscribe to the podcast or make sure you subscribe to YouTube. We've got a lot of shows coming up like this.

Joel, your book, The Unseen Battle, is fantastic. How else can people follow you? you and your work. Yeah, I do the majority of my stuff on Instagram, so it's just my last name, at M-U-D-D-D-A, M-A-L-E, and my friends from a podcast called Blurie Creatures, I know it's wild. We started a new project on substack called Stranger Theology, and so if you're, like, interested in this, and you want to have like an orthodox, evangelical kind of foothold for the odd, weird things that are happening in our world, Strangertheology.com would be a great place to kind of learn more about that. Strangertheology.com. And by the way, Heiserieser

did work on Stranger Things. So you could bring some of your questions about that. I have opinions about Stranger Things. Maybe we'll get into that a little bit Tuesday. But really appreciate you coming all the way out. You rock it on Instagram. It's interesting. It's educational.

It's fun. You're doing great work. I hope people pick up the unseen battle. Thanks for the conversation. Thanks, bro. Hey, friends. If you enjoyed this show, please hit that follow button on your podcast app.

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