The Sean McDowell Show - This Changes Everything About God’s Will (ft. Greg Koukl)

Episode Date: November 11, 2025

What is God’s will and how do we actually find it? Does God still speak to us today, and if so, how can we recognize His voice? Today, we have author and apologist Greg Koukl, founder of Stand to Reason, about one of the most practical and misunderstood topics in the Christian life: how to make decisions that honor God. Greg challenges the common idea that Christians must wait for a “still small voice” or a “sign” before making choices and instead points us back to what Scripture really teaches about God’s will. READ: The Story of Reality, by Greg Koukl (https://amzn.to/4hTIABW) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [smdcertdisc] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

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for Protestants to approach it that way. I mean, there's just a deep irony behind this. Can God intervene? Sure. Don't count on it. And by the way, when he intervenes biblically, it generally is through a supernatural means. I just mentioned it is that I'm not saying God doesn't have purposes for people. God has a sovereign will. But that's kind of behind the curtain, right? That's none of your business kind of thing. He's doing, you know, he's doing things behind the curtain of his sovereignty. And he doesn't usually let us know what that is. What is God's will and how do we find it? Does God still speak today? And if so, how do we quote, hear his voice so we can follow it and make godly decisions? There's probably

no biblical teaching that has been so personally transformative for me than understanding what the Bible says and doesn't say about God's will and how it affects our decision making. Here to talk about is author, friend, adjunct professor for our Talbot M.A. in apologetics and president of standard reason, Greg, Greg, thanks for coming on. Good morning, Sean. I'm still waking up. I got my cup of Joe here, but glad to be with you today, as usual. I love it. Well, let's jump right in because your teaching on this, Greg, has been really important for me, and like I said, transformative. But a question I've never asked you is of all the things you can and do study, why did you first start exam?

in the Bible to discover what it says about God's will. Well, I'm glad you give it a thumbs up a little bit here because it's a very controversial issue, Sean, and I get mixed responses. Eventually, I'm going to write a book. I'm actually in the throes of it right now. And I know it's not going to be a five-star book. It's going to be a two-and-a-half star book. A bunch of people are going to give it five and a bunch you're going to give it one.

Just because of my experience with this, the approach that I want to suggest and that you've just applauded here is someone. somewhat controversial because we have a received tradition about how this is done. And when I say it's a received tradition, it's kind of absorbed from our community. You can read some books on it, and whatever. Most of all, we follow what we hear other people saying about this. And this is exactly the way I was starting my own Christian life. The very first time I taught on this, believe it or not, was 1982. Wow. I was like nine years old in the Lord. And what had happened like a long of people is I had struggled with trying to make sense of the patterns people had suggested that

I should follow what they thought were biblical patterns because these things had proof texts attached to them that that allowed you a loud one to find out well what is it that God wants me to do in these given circumstances what ministry does he want me to get into what who does he want me to marry where should I live what school of what school should I go to what what program should I follow, you know, in terms of study and all kinds of questions that people are asking all the time. And in fact, when you think about it, Sean, we either are making decisions every single day based on what we think is right before God, God's will, if you will, or we're living with the decisions that we've made. So this is really crucial.

This is absolutely crucial. I mean, people get married, based on their understanding of what they think God is telling them to do, leading them to do, hinting them to do nudge, nudge kind of thing as they try to cobble together these suggestions they think that God is making or intimations he's making so they can kind of cash it out into an action plan. And so really it's very, very practical for me. I started studying it because I wanted to get a clear idea of, God's will. And then I, then I, I, I listened to a tape over and, tape, you can tell you how long

that was over and over and over again until I bought a ward out. It was John MacArthur. God's will found, I think, is the name of it. I mean, I could still quote long passages of that. I heard it so many times. And, and then I read some other things that got me thinking about what you my call the conventional way of approaching this. And this is when I began to seriously question on biblical grounds the way that we had all received to make decisions about, as people will put it, God's will for their life. And so that's what got me rolling on this. Just this personal struggle with trying to make this work because it just, it was frustrating. I wasn't hearing. from God like other people seem to intimate they were hearing from God. And a lot of, I can remember my

three, my two brothers, the three of us were four years apart. We all became Christians fairly around the same time in the 70s during the Jesus movement. We're all trying to figure out whether we should buy this jalopy car, you know, this piece of junk here. That's all we can afford. Well, do you think it's God's will? I don't know. Do you? Well, I've been praying about it. I kind of feel it's God's will. Well, it's a piece of junk, you know? It didn't last long. But, but, but, it was that kind of thing is God telling us to buy this car or not. And it was it was moments of confusion like that that I know many of your listeners are experiencing that that that pressed me to look more deeply. And I want to emphasize this particular point, Sean, biblically,

look more deeply, biblically. And like I said, many people in with the received tradition, there are all kinds of verses, and we'll talk about it, that people have used and press, into service for this model. But what I did is something strange. You know what, stand the reason we have a principle, and the principle is called never read a Bible verse. Love it. That is, if you want to know what a Bible verse means, you got to read more than the verse. And when you start looking at the context of some of these proof texts that was meant to justify a certain program of how discovering God's will worked, I discovered that none of these, none of these, none of of these proof texts had anything to do with the model,

justifying the model that was being offered. So that's the genesis of this whole project for me, Sean. That's so helpful. We teach the same thing at Talbot in terms of the context. So I'm starting this new series on Sundays where we're taking like the 25 most difficult biblical pastures, like a thorn in Paul's flesh. What does that mean?

Yeah. Or like 1 Peter 3, you know, preaching to the spirits who are dead, like what is going on and we start in the immediate context, work our way out. That's what you do with passages on God's will. Now, that book by MacArthur was huge for me when I read it. He probably wrote that in the 70s or 80s. And it's really simple. He's like, God's will is that you be saved. God's will is you're filled with the Holy Spirit. God's will is you use your gifts for the kingdom. He gives a few criteria. And then it's like after that, do what you want. And it demystifies the process. and I think really makes it powerful and doable.

And for me personally, Greg, I grew up in a Christian home, obviously, with my father, given what he did. But I went to a public school. So I wasn't surrounded by Christians almost 24-7 until I went to Biola. And I'd hear some students, not all say things like I'm feeling led by the spirit and a still small voice and God opens a door. And I really felt inadequate for a while. I thought, why isn't God speaking to me this way?

What's wrong with me? Why don't I have this conversational relationship with God? And the same thing you did. Let's go to the text, see what it says. And this is where some of your teaching was formative will get into. But I want to ask you, why do you think there's so much confusion about this? Is it what you said that we just accept to receive tradition and don't question it? Or is more going on why there's so much confusion about God?

Yeah, there's a lot more going on, I think, that makes it so emotionally, freighted. By the way, from MacArthur that was saved, sanctified, spirit-filled, submit, and suffer. They were all losses. Now, it's interesting what he did, though. He went to all these verses that said, this is God's will for you. And those were the seven things that all turned out to start with us. So he's not a Baptist preacher. But he found the verses that actually fit, you know, the alliteration there. But the reason, here's the reason, I think that's the biggest reason, Sean, it is, it just feels to people so intimate to have God in a certain sense whispering to you personally about his personal desires for you and that he's right there.

It's so personal. And I mean, this is the appeal, I think. And it's certainly understandable. And I'm not dissing it at all. I get it. I understand that. And it's so much so this has fixed many people's theology of the Holy Spirit so much that if there's a suggestion that the Holy Spirit's role is not to tell you what to do, make these decisions for you to whisper in your ear, as it were, in this intimate fashion, then what's the point of the Holy Spirit at all? they say in other words they have no more pneumatology doctrine of the spirit accessible to them that

they're aware of than then god then the spirit doing that function and if it's suggested that the holy biblically the whole this isn't what the bible teaches the holy spirit does that they say what's the point of the holy spirit now this underscores a very important point to me because um one iteration of this teaching that I give is called from truth to experience. And of course, this is experience. It's subjective. No, that doesn't mean it's false. But notice that when we drift into focusing on a subjective element for our spiritual life, that, and I'm going to argue, is not actually scriptural because of the emotional appeal of it. People end up drifting away from the solid truth of the scripture. That's right. And even when I make point,

from the text that they admit, I cannot refute what you just said for the text. And most of the times it's not tricky, Sean, as you know, in terms of looking at these passages, what we'll do. But they still don't want to let go of them because they're so committed to the subjective element. And I think that's the most difficult thing for people to let go of. And also, there is a misunderstanding. It doesn't matter how carefully I explain this.

I think you know me so many years. We've known each other that, you know, that one of the things I focus on is clarity, clarity, clarity. That's right. Very precise. Nevertheless, what I say gets misheard as if there's no emotions involved. God's not working in my life. It's deism here and all that other stuff. And that's nothing, you know, this is nothing like my own personal life.

But it does mean that we, in my view, we have to. be more careful about being scriptural when it comes to this particular issue, even though it may sacrifice some subjective satisfaction that we've had with God. In the long run, it's better to get it right than to have good feelings that are not biblically grounded. Amen. I think that last point is really well stated. And in some ways, ironically, it surfaces that sometimes in this conversation, we may be more committed to a certain subjective experience of how we think God speaks than scripture itself, which is so ironic for Protestants to approach it that way. I mean, there's just a deep irony behind this.

Yeah, I got a funny anecdote if I could throw it in on that particular point. I remember making this case, this is long ago when I did commercial radio for KBRT here in Southern California, and I was making this point. And I'm not making this up. But this really punctuates the point that we're both making right here. And that is that after I made this point about the importance of the particular scriptural guidelines to decision making, a gal who I was talking to lamented. And she said, so what you're saying is all I have is the book.

It's like all I have, the Bible, right? I get the booby prize. I get second best. That's it. What do you mean all I have is the book? But this makes the point that certain approaches to this project, not with everybody, but in many cases, ends up demeaning the objective word of God and it gets neglected in favor of these subjective experiences. Now, you know that this kind of is at the heart of relativism. We say no to the objective truth. We say, yes. to the subjective or relativistic truth, the truth for me, the individual personal thing that God is saying to me. That's dangerous in the church.

And it concerns me. I've written a book on deconstruction and deconversion and it had dozens of conversations. And many times, people will reject the Christian faith who are raised in because of a straw man based in bad biblical theology about how we think God speaks, how we experience God. how God shows up and when he doesn't meet their expectations as opposed to Scripture, they reject it. So a lot is at stake practically, like you said, getting this right. And in some cases, even somebody's faith. So maybe let's start here. We talk about a relationship with God, which I think is good language we should use because in John 17, Jesus talk says this is eternal life, that they may know you the only true God.

And that's not just experiential or intellectual knowledge. There's a sense that we personally know God. Of course. It's not propositional, just it's relational. It's knowledge of a personal friendship. I agree. Exactly. But so we use that language and it's justified in scripture.

But what comes with that is an expectation about how we speak to God and how God will speak back to us. should we expect two-way communication with God and prayer or other ways as we experience with Need a daily spark of hope and direction? Let the Daily Bible app from Salem Media be that spark. This free Android app delivers an uplifting verse each morning, plus reading plans, devotions, and trusted podcasts from leaders like Joyce Meyer and Rick Warren. Prefer to listen instead? The Daily Bible app reads verses reading plans and chapters aloud handy for the headphones moment of your day.

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This is your birthright to be able to have this personal conversational relationship with God, as some might put it. And there's a lot of people we know that disagree on this point that we both love. And so I'm not bringing any personalities into this at all. I'm trying to just make the point. It's offered as kind of the premium or the high end of, this is what we shoot for. but it's a skill that you have to develop. This is the way it's kind of characterized.

And the, oh gosh, I just lost my train of thought. The question again, Sean? The question was about whether we should expect two-way communication. Yeah, that's right. Okay, got it. So with regards to relationship, and I've had people say this, but Greg, we're in relationship with God, which I agree with. But they are assuming what relationship with God looks like.

And I'll just say categorically, and this should be obvious, relationship with God is not just like any other human relationship. And sometimes people go from that direction. What is it what relationship with each other? What do we do to be in relationship with each other? Here's their characteristics. These are the activities. And then we say, well, that, we can use that as an analog to describe what our relationship

with God would be like. And you and I are talking. You talk to me. I talk to you. We have a conversational relationship with God. And so then the presumption based on the analogy of human relationships is it should be the same. This is a mistake because God is not a human being. And there are all kinds of things about a relationship with God that are totally unlike our human relationships.

And so in this way of approaching it, the tails wagging the dog. Instead, I think we ought to be asking this. What does the scripture teach, starting there, a relationship with God looks like? Now, when we find something about scripturally a relationship with God that is analogous to a human relationship, we can make that connection. Okay. But, you know, when I was a new Christian back in the early 70s, you know, I was really spiritual, right? And so I had this little, and I was single for a long time, as you know. And I had this little thing on my desk, you know, that written out and I said, Lord, you're my girl.

Well, that doesn't work, man. I'm just, if there are any single guys out there, I'm just telling you. you forget about that because god wasn't meant to fulfill that part of our life i'm just saying all right there are unique qualities that other so he doesn't do everything he does what god does this is like people saying well does jesus work well it kind of depends what you expect him to do he works fine for what he was given to us for but he doesn't work for everything that he wasn't meant to do and so so that i think is the general approach we have to look first at the scripture now the question then becomes um do we have uh does the scripture teach a kind of back and forth conversational

relationship with god and the answer that is unqualified no no are there some people who had that kind of thing yeah moses jesus um gee who else even the apostles it there were can obviously we see these kind of connections but they had very specific roles and and and it didn't appear that they're all going on and on and on and on in this conversational thing. There were certain times of revelation. I mean, even in the, look, I just read the opening chapters of Matthew yesterday in my own reading. And here you got, God appears to Joseph in a dream that this birth, this pregnancy is of the Holy Spirit. Then God goes to the Magi in a dream. Don't go back to Herod. And then in a dream tells Joseph, go to Egypt. And then in a dream tells Joseph

to come back. Okay. Notice that these are a very unique kind of motif for one. And it, and, and, and there's no intimation that these people who are getting revelation from God for specific purposes, this is an ongoing thing. And so we had a, I had a group, a discipleship group, many years ago, so before the ones that we had together when we were both in the MA Phil program. And we actually did a study in the New Testament. You can find it on, on, on, at TR.org, New Testament on Prayer. And we isolated, we broke the sections down between the six of us, we isolated every section, every single verse that had anything to do with prayer. You can't use a concordance because a lot of prayer verses don't have the word prayer in it. You have to read it.

And then we outlined what we discovered, you know, which was most important. And what does the Bible say? There is not a single verse that intimates anything like conversational. back and forth prayer. We pray to God. God talks to us. Not a single one. Look at the Lord's prayer, nothing there. And so, which was really the disciples' prayer. But gee, how is it? I got a book back here from a pastor, everybody who's named they recognize. There's a whole chapter on listening prayer. Where is he getting his biblical information when there is not a shred of evidence that this is a standard part of prayer? No, I do. didn't say that this never happens. Obviously, God breaks in at different times in the New Testament

and certainly in the Old Testament. But the question is, is it for the rank and file as a standard part of their relationship with God? I'm not putting a muzzle on God. I'm not silencing God. He could do whatever he wants, but we can't teach whatever he wants. We can't exegete our experiences. We have to go to the text and then teach what the text seems to be indicating about this feature in our lives. And there, I guarantee you, there is nothing in there that justifies the idea of response, what do we call, back and forth prayer where we talk and God talks. Conversational, like, no, listen.

What is the word? Conversational prayer, whatever. Now, prayer is conversational in the sense that we talk with God in a conversational way, in a personal way in an intimate way. But it doesn't, then that's fine. And when you use conversational prayer in that sense, great. We don't have to be all holier than now and use Elizabethan English, you know, and whatever, you know, to be praying properly. We just pray from our hearts. But we, but prayer is not conversational in the sense that it's two-way as a standard thing. Can God intervene? Sure. Don't count on it. And by the way, when he intervenes biblically,

It generally is through a supernatural means. I just mentioned through dreams, you know. It wasn't Joseph just kind of sitting around and, you know, asking God, wait, what's the deal with this gal who's now pregnant and I'm engaged to her? You know, we don't have all those details. But the point I'm making is God did communicate what was necessary in that circumstance, but through a supernatural means. And that's another element here that we might get to in a minute.

We will. And a couple important things. I want to emphasize that you're saying this is something well-meaning, spirit-filled Bible-believing Christians differ over. This is not an issue that we want to castigate someone who've used differently. Divide over this. But your methodology, which I agree 100% with, is let's go to the text and see what the Bible teaches. And we're going to look, I know our audience right now is saying, wait a minute, what about 1st Kings 19? What about 1 Samuel 1?

What about Jesus saying my sheep hear my voice? We will get to those passages. But the key I really want to emphasize is just because relational language is used with God doesn't mean it should be the same relational kind of expectation as with another human being. Exactly. I mean, in some ways, I have a relationship. I can have a relationship with an animal. I can have a relationship with my wife.

I can have a relationship with God. You should put those two next to each other, Sean. I mean, you get the point, obviously, I understand. It's like even some like influencers. I have a one-way relationship with them. They don't talk back to me. And there's probably some people that follow my stuff that I'm not able to respond to their queries. So we have to ask, what is the text teach?

And exceptions like Moses doesn't prove we should expect that for ourselves. That's a really important point. that you're drawing out. By the way, I don't even have a dog, so I just do that out there as an example to make a point that you rightly called me on. All right, so let's go to one of these texts in John chapter 10. Okay, before we get to that.

Oh, go ahead. I just, I do want to get to that, but I want to offer one other thought that will provide a little framework for folks, okay? Because I think I need to say something here about the structure of the received tradition. so people know exactly what I'm critiquing. Okay.

And here's when people go to find God's will for their life. That is, what is the thing that God has decided that he wants me to do so that I can decide to do it? It follows that pattern. It's all based on a presumption. And the presumption is, and I'm using my words very careful here, so I'll save him slowly. The presumption is that God has a personal will for our lives. that we must discover in order to do it. Okay, I'm going to say that again. God has a personal will for our life that we must discover in order to do that personal will. So God has a will,

he's already figured out who someone is going to marry. Now, how do we know who God has decided? I want to decide what God has decided. So I have to get this information out of God. And then when I cobble together the hints, then I can divine the directive and do what I think is his will, what he has already decided for me. No, qualifier right now is that I'm not saying God doesn't have purposes for people. God has a sovereign will. But that's kind of behind the curtain, right? It's as R.C. Sproul said, that's none of your business kind of thing. He's doing, you know, he's doing things behind the curtain of his sovereignty, and he doesn't usually let us know what that is. The question is in practical terms, is God deciding what job we have to do, blah, blah, blah, in the sense that he's telling us then in some fashion.

And here's where all the proof text come in. It is, how is he going to communicate that to us if he's already made that decision that we must figure out? And we got to kind of squeeze bits and pieces of information out, which amount to kind of a nudge, nudge, hint, so we can cobble together the pieces to divine. Oh, I think he wants me to do this, which, by the way, already this is unusual. If God really wants us to do something and this is what his will is such that if we don't do this, we're outside of. his will. Why would he mumble? This is what it amounts to, cobbling these disparate pieces together, but people think they have the proof texts in those whole books like this. Get these things lined up, and then you'll know this is what God wants you to do. But you wanted to get into John 10,

and I cut you off. So go ahead. No, no, that was great. That's really helpful in terms of the way you framed it is when we're acting in big and small, are we supposed to seek God's hidden will, the decision he's already made that we are supposed to do be in line with his will, that's a certain assumption. You're cutting off at the knees, so to speak. And that doesn't mean God doesn't have a purpose. Doesn't mean he's sovereign. We're talking about, and it doesn't mean God isn't with us when we're making decisions through His Holy Spirit. Correct. Yeah. That's the question we challenge. So I love that. So important. Now, one of the first verses people will go to is, in John chapter 10. There's actually four instances in John chapter 10 alone in which Jesus talks about

his sheep hearing or knowing his voice. So for the sheep, shouldn't we try to hear and know his voice before we act? Yes. So I have read this passage so many times. And one of the first questions I ask when people say, well, Jesus said my sheep heard my voice. So this is a rejoinder to my point of view. You're wrong. Jesus said this. Okay, fine. Where is that? that that's my first question. Almost nobody knows where it's out. You do, of course, but almost nobody knows that it's in John 10. If somebody says it's in John 10, I ask what's happening in John 10, you know, dead air, right? They don't know what's happening in John 10. This is really important. Okay. So Jesus is talking about being the good shepherd. That's how he launches out his

point there. And in verse, what, four, five, or six, right there at the beginning of the discourse, which he's talking to hostile Jews. That's the circumstance. And actually that discourse is broken in two sections because there's two different encounters that he has where he uses the same kind of language. And then in verse four, five or six maybe, it says, this Jesus spoke as a figure of speech.

Now that ought to jump right out at everyone. So when Jesus says, I'm living water, we realize that's a figure of speech because he's not a he's not h2 oh he's meaning something else so we're trying to find out what is the metaphor doing what is it meant to be telling us okay i am the bread of life okay then he says my sheep hear my voice the impulse then is to take that literally as a way of god communicating propositional information to us my sheep hear my voice Okay, it's very interesting, though, the nature of the conflict. The Jews are, and this is going to, people can do whatever they want with additional theology regarding this,

but I'm just going to tell you what it says. Jesus is saying that there's a conflict there with the Jews who aren't fighting him, okay? And Jesus is saying he's the good shepherd and his sheep hear him. Now, the question here is, did those people hear Jesus? Of course they heard. It's giving a discourse there. But they didn't hear in the way that Jesus is using the phrase hearing his voice as a metaphor. And what is that that he's referring to?

They're not responding. They're not coming to him. Okay. And here's this linkage here halfway through the chapter is really good. And this is the second occasion. He says, my sheep hears. my voice and they follow me and I give them eternal life. All that the Father has given to me will come to me.

And I lose nothing because no one is greater than the Father, I and the Father are one. Lots of heavy theology going on there. But notice what, look at that sequence, my sheep here, and I have other sheep also, he says, probably referring to Gentiles there. My sheep here, they respond, they receive eternal life. Looking for a simple way to stay rooted in God's Word every day, the Daily Bible Devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you connected with scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy Daily Bible Trivia and humor, a fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your faith.

Get the Daily Bible Devotion app for free on both iOS and Android. and end your day with God's Word. Search for the daily Bible devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store and download it today. Jesus is talking about the process of the Holy Spirit working effectively in someone's life. This is called the effective call of the Spirit to draw them into a personal belief in Christ. Okay. Now, how people want to cast that out with other theology, that's their business. But it's really clear here that he's is not talking about this capability that Christians have, generally speaking, to hear the voice of Jesus. Because by the way, if that's the case, why isn't it never mentioned anywhere else that we ought to be cultivating this ability to hear? And incidentally, it's in the indicative. He doesn't say,

Christians, my sheep, will learn to hear my voice when they get more mature. He says, my sheep, here. If you're my sheep, you hear me. Now, if people are reading that thinking this is the subjective communication of Jesus to them and they're thinking, I don't hear anything, then what is the natural thing for them to conclude from Jesus' comment? That they're not his sheep, that they're not Christians. And there is a whole lot of people that are laboring under that cloud thinking, I must not be a believer because I don't hear anything. If you're a believer, you've already heard, according to Jesus meaning in John 10, because it is the, it is the believer. That you are a believer is evidence that you have heard this particular work of the spirit drawing you in to the kingdom. And I could say,

you know, before I became a believer, now I'm looking back and I have some theology, there's a period of time where all of a sudden it started coming together. And I felt drawn to Christ until finally I I believed in him. And that I look back now is the work of the Holy Spirit to draw something. Incidentally, which we're all familiar with, this is not like some arcane theological doctrine.

It's just Jesus is using metaphoric language to describe it in that circumstance. And then he says, and then they come in and I had one teacher called it the divine sandwich. The father has given them into my hand and no one can take them out of the father's hand because no one's greater than the father. So you've got Jesus' hand,

the father's hand, and then those sheep that are his are right there inside. It's a beautiful picture. And then he says, I and the father are one, which really freaks out the Jews. But notice, to put it simply, the sheep that hear him are not believers in this passage, but become believers in virtue of hearing him. So this is not a passage for general day-to-day Christian life at all. This is so good and helpful. And honestly, it's not magic. If people would just go to the text and read it carefully within the context, this bubbles to the surface.

This is not about people saying to Jesus, should I get married? Who do I marry? Do I get an education? This is a discussion about his sheep and his followers. Hear his voice and will respond with belief and repentance and have each person. turn of life. It's not even about decision making and the context reveals that. Well, let's keep going. Let's look a few other verses. By the way, that one is, that's the hardest one in terms of exegesis. All the rest of them are so simple. But that's the most difficult one. We started with the hard one.

The rest are going to be easy watch. All right. You better, you better back that up, Cooke. You just set the standard high, man. So let's let's see where this goes. All right. Another passage in Galatians 5, 16 through 26 talks about being led by the spirit. Right. And I hear this used all the time. Like if you're led by the spirit, the spirit will speak to you or give you nudges or in different ways guide you towards that decision. So what does it mean to be led by the spirit?

Okay. Now, you mentioned the second place this phrase is used, the one most frequently cited is in Romans. Those who are led by the spirit, Romans 8, these are sons of God. Now, it turns out that these are the only two places in Scripture. that this phrase is even used. And secondly, they're both Pauline. And thirdly, they mean exactly the same in both cases. And when you read the text, it's very simple to see.

Okay. Now, the normal way of understanding these words in isolation is that being led by the spirit is a nudge, nudge, hint, hint kind of thing. I feel like I'm being nudged by the spirit in this way. And then we use this language led by the spirit. The danger here, Sean, is when people take biblical phrases and then understand them in terms of 20th century, 21st century, a Christian lingo. We know what people mean when they say that, but then we read it back in the text and we think

that Paul, in this case, means the same thing. All right. Now, in Romans, let me start with Romans because that's a better one to set up the Galatians passage. In Romans 8, you have Paul contrasting. the life in the spirit and life in the flesh. And he is not using in the flesh or in the spirit, even as we use it today.

Okay, I'm going to church on Sunday. Man, I was so in the spirit. And then I went to the beach. Oh, man, I was so in the flesh. This is not the way Paul is using the terms, right? He is saying, in the spirit means to be regenerate. I'm sorry, yeah, regenerate. And in the flesh means unregenerate.

Those who are unregenerate pursue the things of the flesh. Those who are in the spirit pursue the things of the spirit. And I know he's referring to the spirit in the spirit as being regenerate because he says, and you are not in the flesh if the spirit dwells in you. That's regeneration. And if the spirit doesn't dwell in you, you're none of his. But if you are, watch this, putting to death the deeds of the flesh. Now, this is the contrast in the flow of thought between the one living by the flesh and just doing whatever. Maybe not Hitler's or whatever, but they're just living like everybody else, doing whatever they want. But the person who is in the spirit regenerate has as a goal in their life to put to death the deeds of the flesh for those who are being led by the spirit are sons of God.

Oh, m.G. Led by the spirit means putting to death the deeds of the flesh. It has nothing to do with nudge, nudge, hint, hint in a certain direction, not according to Paul. Now, we jump over to the second use, the only other use. Jesus would lead into the wilderness, but a whole different concept and wording is used there. He was taken by the spirit is the point. He was taken by the spirit, just like same language when Satan took Jesus to the top of the mountain, exact same language.

That's a whole different kind of thing. So in Galatians, you have this conflict. At the end of chapter 5, he's talking about the battle between the flesh and the spirit, which is the same context that Paul's talking about, same topic, in Romans 8, just using different language. Now, the deeds of the flesh are obvious, and it lists all these nasties. And here he uses two phrases that are in parallel, walk by the spirit, and led by the spirit, okay? He said, if you walk by the spirit,

you're not going to do these things that the flesh want you to do. However, by contrast, if you are led by the spirit, you're not under the law. Why aren't you under the law? Because you're already doing the things that God wants you to do.

You're not doing these nasties. You're doing what comes next, and what comes next? The fruits of the spirit. So there's a contrast between fleshly living, unregenerate living, and godly living,

spirit-filled, spirit-led, spirit-guided, living, but it's referring to the moral behavior that we are pursuing, by contrast to the immoral behavior, given the fight between the spirit and the flesh, and that's the opening sentence. The spirit fights against the flesh,

the flesh against the spirit, so you can't do what you want to do. It's going to be one or the other, and there's always going to be a conflict if you're born again. And then he says, walk by the spirit, you will not carry out the desires of the flesh. And then the phrase led by the spirit is right there in parallel to walk by the spirit.

Point being, it's exactly the same point that Paul is making in both cases. There is no intimation that the phrase led by the spirit means getting nudge, nudge, hints, hint about what God wants to do. And one qualifier here, Sean. I am not saying that there aren't subjective ways that God will get us to do things. I'm saying that these passages don't teach that. The praise led by the Spirit doesn't intimate that, doesn't suggest it. It has a completely different meaning. And so therefore, we're going to have to find justification for nudge, nudge, hinch, hints as a standard for the Christian finding God's will in other places.

So there's two passages that John 10, Galatians 5 and Romans 8, these aren't going to work to justify this system. Let's take a couple of common Old Testament passages that come up. And so one of them I've heard you talk about in a range of settings. And when I teach on this, I go to this passage in 1st King chapter 19. And Ahab is king and Elijah is run out of town, so to speak, after defeating the prophets of bail. He's up on Mount Horib, Mount Sinai. Right, right. And it says, you know, he's command.

It says, go out and stand on the mountain before the... the Lord. The Lord passed by in wind, so to speak, broke pieces of rock, but the Lord was not in the wind. There's an earthquake. There was fire. It says the Lord's not in the fire. And after the fire, the sound of a low whisper. And he hears this whisper. And I can't tell you how many times I've had people say to me, Sean, are you praying or are you listening for God's whisper or his still small voice. Is that how we're supposed to interpret and take this passage? Yeah, well, Ahab didn't run him out. It was Jezebel. I'm not correct to you. I'm just making it. Here he has this incredible thing in First Kings 18 and God comes down with fire and all these false prophets are destroyed, 700 of him. And then

Jezebel complains and he lifts up his skirts and he runs. He runs for 40 days to get away from this woman, you know, because he's scared of her, which is. This is crazy, but it shows how human he is. And it also shows he's depressed. Okay. So halfway through, he lays down his, I want to die, you know, kind of thing. And then God makes provision. He finally gets to Sinai.

And then they have this conversation. Now, it's interesting when I go back, I use the New American Standard. And frankly, do you remember where that citation came from which version, the one you just read about the, you know, whisper or something like that. Well, I think I pulled this from the ESV where it talks about a voice that said, and let me see, look here. It says after the fire, the sound of a low whisper. Now, this translation doesn't say still small voice, but that's how it's often. I actually think that's the King James still small voice, and that's the characterization people often give to it.

The New American Standard says the sound of gentle blowing. But what's interesting is that there, you know, God comes to him gently. He quietly, not in all the noise. I mean, God said, I've arrived, bada boom, you know, Elvis is in the house. And then when he deals with the depressed prophet, you know, he settles down. And then it says, he says to him. So what we have following that is a conversation between Elijah and God. And God's encouraging him.

You know, you think, oh, nobody's left. He says, I got, you know, what, 7,000 people have still not bowed their knee to bail. You've got people you need to lead and then gives them instructions on going back. So here's the, here's the deal. First of all, who is this? This is Elijah. He's not Joe Schmoe, Levi, or whatever, who's the standard whatever believer at that time. He's one of the greatest prophets of the Old Testament.

So a case can be made that whatever this encounter involves, it's unique because of the office of the prophet. And by the way, we need to be very careful that we don't say foolish things. Pardon me. And I've heard people say things like this. Well, it happened to Moses, so it should happen to us. You know, who made that mistake was Miriam, you know, and Aaron. And they got in trouble from God. Moses is special. And then Moses says, and another one's going to come like me, the prophet, who is Jesus, he's special too. So we have to be very careful looking at some of these Old Testament examples of direct communication with God and act like this is meant to be the ordinary thing for the spirit-filled Christian. That's a mistake. And I think the same mistake is being made here in First Kings 19. You have Elijah and this great prophet has a very specific role.

in the nation of Israel. Want to keep God's word with you wherever you go? The King James Bible Study KJV app by Salem Media makes it easy to read, study, share, and pray daily with the timeless KJV translation. Enjoy features like offline access, audio Bible listening, smart search, and tools to highlight bookmark and take notes,

all designed to keep your Bible studies simple and organized. Best of all, it's free to download in the Google Play Store. Growing your faith every day. Search for King James Bible Study, KJV, and download the app today. God is sending him back to the believing remnant to do a job with the Northern Kingdom, which is a mess. And he may be speaking quietly to him, whatever, but he is giving him a gentle chastisement

and sending him back into the battle. The question then becomes, incidentally, whatever this was, the sound of gentle blowing New American Standard, still a small voice, King James, the whisper, whatever it was, It was a clear, unmistakable, direct communication to Elijah. It wasn't a nudge, nudge, nudge, hint. Okay, so if we want to say, well, we're going to live like the Old Testament or like the Bible, just like the people in the biblical times, well, then do that. But the things that most people offer bear no, as communications from God,

bear no resemblance to what we see there in Elijah's case, or many of the other cases where there is a direct, and it turned out to be, in most cases, a supernatural interaction with God so that the message is clear. And I'm looking at the clock. I want to use our time well, but I encourage people to go to 1st Corinthians chapter 14 because they will see what I call the lesson of the bugle.

Now, Paul is talking to 1 Corinthians 14 about tongues as a revelation without interpretation, without interpretation. And he's saying, wait a minute, if you have tongues without interpretation, nobody's going to know what you're talking about. And then he gives an illustration of the bugle that's used in battle. Because bugle was, bugles were the comms of battle, right? And so some bugle tone said charge, suns every treat. And you better know the difference, right? And so if he says there, if the bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will ready himself for battle?

And then he says, in the same way, unless we speak with the mouth words that are clear, how it would be known what we are to do. Now, this is, I call the lesson of the bugle. He's applying it to revelation, because tongues with interpretations type of revelation. And I don't think we should abandon this principle. So many people think that God is actually in the business of communicating in a way that's not clear that we have to be capable of deciphering, cobbling together little hints, and hopefully get the message to do his will. And they don't realize how goofy that sounds in terms of practical application. That's why I send them back to verse Corinthians 14 and Paul's lesson of the bugle.

So A, in the story, is not Elijah sitting around feeling some nudge that's subjective and thinking God is speaking. B, even if that were the case and it's not, we're not taught to follow that model. And C, if it did happen to Elijah, that wouldn't follow that we should follow Elijah's the way God speaks to Elijah. who shows up in, you know, the transfiguration in Mark 9 and Luke 9 alongside Moses. I mean, there's just so many reasons this doesn't teach the model that's often offered to us. Now, let me ask you two more. There's so many more than this. Sure.

But these are kind of the big ones that come up. One more Old Testament one is in 1st Samuel in the early chapters 1 through 3. we're kind of told that Eli, who's a godly mentor of Samuel, helps him hear and recognize God's voice. And we similarly need a mentor or guide or practice in hearing God's voice. What's going on there? Yeah, I'm glad to cash it out that way because that's exactly the way that's used. I went back to the passage. Anyone listening can do this.

It's only three chapters. Start in 1, Samuel, chapter 1, verse 1, and take. it all the way to the end of chapter three and amazingly what you will discover is not a single piece of that little paradigm that you offered is evident in the text because remember this this requires that first um eli pardon me is a godly man who has the skill to recognize god's voice samuel is the young believer so to speak who hasn't attained the ability to recognize and therefore a communication and training goes on in which then he then begins to operate in a way that all Christians could kind of operate if we were tutored in the same way that that Samuel allegedly

was tutored. Okay, first of all, Eli's not a godly man. The only time that he has ever heard from God that we know from the text is when a prophet knocks on his door and others a curse over him because his sons, Hopney and Phineas are sleeping with the girls in the temple. And he's He's not disciplining them. So he's cursed. Okay. Secondly, Samuel's not, he's a young lad, but he's not a believer. How do I know? It says in the text. It says Samuel didn't know the Lord. And also it says, and words from the Lord were rare in those days. All of these mitigate against this characterization, this passage. Then what actually happens when God speaks? Samuel hears him immediately. He doesn't need to develop the ability to hear. Oh, but he doesn't recognize. Of course he

doesn't recognize. He's in the temple with Eli. He's waiting on Eli. Eli calls him in the middle of the night and says, get me some water or whatever. That's the standard there. Okay, he hears a voice. He thinks it's Eli. And so he goes and he talks to Eli. Oh, that's not me. Send him back. This happens three times. And finally, Eli comes to his senses and says, hey, say this. Speak, Lord, your servant is listening or something to that effect. He doesn't give him any lessons in the phenomenology of the voice of God that he would recognize it because God speaks this way. And when he speaks with this voice, that's him.

There's nothing like that. It doesn't occur. And then after God gives instructions to Samuel, as Samuel responds in that way, the next time God speaks, then Eli says, tell me everything he said. This doesn't sound like a man who's like trafficking in this discipline or this capability. And then at the end of the chapter, it says none of the words of Samuel fell to the ground. In other words, all of them were fulfilled. Now, this is just a way of the author of First Samuel saying that Samuel satisfied the requirements of God's anointed prophet. Everything comes true,

Deuteronomy. All right. So now in this case, not only do none of the details, when you, You actually read the detail. Anybody can go there. This is not hard. This is not my theology. Just read it. And you'll see that it does not match the paradigm that's offered. But it turns out we're talking about Samuel, who is the first great prophet of Israel.

You have Moses, then you got Samuel. And he's the last of the judges and the first great prophet. And he anoints the kings, at least David. rather Saul and David. And so, I mean, how is this in any way a proof text for this view? It's not even marginally. It's completely mischaracterized. You know, to further this point, and this could open a huge can of worms, we pick and choose Old Testament stories to push forward the theology that we want. And I always wonder, why do we pick these stories as models and not other ones? Greg, I wish I were making this up, but this a friend of mine years ago, probably 30 years ago, was older than I was,

and he had a stuffed animal camel on the dash of his car. And I was like, what is that about? It goes, well, you know, I'm following Genesis 18 when it talks about, you know, the servant of the servant of Abraham, getting a wife for Isaac Rebecca, where they would ask, you know, to water the camels. And if I'm giving a girl a ride and she offers to water my camels, I'll know she's the one. And I thought he was kidding. Even at that time, I remember thinking, you've got to be kidding me. And maybe it was in jest and I missed it. But we just pick and choose these stories, which were never taught to do so. Now, I know there's some people right now that are going, what about this story? What about that one? We're not answering all of them right here.

I'm going to link below to three pieces that you've written. I'm going to really encourage people to start there. But what we've given is a methodology. Go to the text, read it, ask what it says, what's being described, what's being prescribed. And so I got to ask you one more. I know we're pushing the time a little bit here, but everybody's probably thinking, what about the book of Acts? The Holy Spirit speaks all over the place. The church has been launched. Jesus is gone physically, so shouldn't we follow that model?

Yeah, that's a great question. And actually, just a couple of months ago, I wrote a seller ground on that issue. and the title of it is when God speaks. So I'll recommend they go to STR.org and look for that piece, when God speaks, because I go into a lot of detail. But the simple or quick answer is that the Book of Acts covers a period of time from 33 AD to about 63, 62, 62, that's 30 years.

In those 30 years, there are 13 times when God intervenes with special direction. Now, that's not a lot. You might say, well, he did it a lot of other times and it's not recorded. Well, we've got to go with what's recorded. I found 70 other cases where God made decisions, I'm sorry, where the disciples made the decisions without, and important ones, without any direction whatsoever. Interestingly, when you look at the 13, they are all supernatural. They are all supernatural.

And God speaking in a supernatural way or an angel shows up or Jesus shows up. or there's a vision or, you know, Philip is supernaturally carried away from the, from Gaza, where the Gaza Strip, where Ethiopian Unic is at. And, I mean, those are very, very unusual circumstances. It is not the way they operated day to day. Instead, here's the way I would characterize it, Sean. They had a commission called the Great Commission, going to all the world. They also had gifting and capabilities, and they knew their responsibilities. We're not going to wait on tables. We're going to preach the word.

Okay, we have different jobs to do. God doesn't distribute ministry through calling. It's not in the text. He distributes ministry through gifting, 1st Corinthians 12, Romans 12, Ephesians 4, 1, Peter, what, 3 or 4? Those are the passages that talk about gifting, and that's where we should be focusing on for ministry, not some kind of subjective call, which is not taught in scripture.

And that's just one example about how to go about. answering some of these questions. The way John MacArthur did it, put it here, is that God's will is not do this or do that. God's will is us. We're back to the saved, sanctified, submitting, suffering, all of these things that it says is God's will for us. That means God's will is the kind of person we are. Not so much who we marry, but the kind of husband we are, not so much what job we take, but the kind of worker we are, that kind of thing. And if we have a decision that we're facing and we're seeking to choose something that is morally acceptable before God and wise, based on the council we've been given whatever, then we can do whatever we want with God's

blessing. We don't need to do the nudge, nudge, hint, hint, whatever. That's not the biblical model. That's very similar way I frame it with students. I'll say, God is less concerned with who you invite to prom, or if you go to prom, as opposed to how you treat your date. He's less concerned where you live someday as opposed to what kind of neighbor that you are. I think that point by MacArthur is really profound. Now, you do say in that piece on the holy, on, on acts, that God can and does still speak, but it's clear, it's rare, and it's supernatural. So when God speaks, it's not like he's trying to speak to me. I got to decipher it. Like when he calls Jonah, it wasn't, did he hear God's voice? It was, I don't want to listen to God's voice. So it's clear.

It's supernatural. And it's rare. It's not the norm. It's actually not being thought for in those circumstances with possibly one exception with the first missionary journey. But once of the time it intrudes on the circumstances. Yeah. Look at, there is no time anywhere in Scripture where God attempted to speak to someone and failed. God is not trying to speak to you, but you don't have the skill because God doesn't try. Even Saul, unregenerate Saul, murdering Christians.

Saul had no trouble hearing the voice of Jesus when Jesus intended to communicate with him. Greg, probably seven years ago, I had a student come up to me and he said, what is God's will for this decision my life? I said, here's my challenge for you. At this time, you'd use Google. Now you could use AI. I said, want to keep God's word with you wherever you go? The King James Bible Study KJV app by Salem Media makes it easy to read, study, share, and pray daily with a timeless KJV translation. Enjoy features like offline access, audio Bible listening, smart search, and tools to highlight bookmark and take notes, all designed to keep your Bible studies simple and organize.

Best of all, it's free to download in the Google Play Store. Growing your faith every day. Search for King James Bible study, KJV, and download the app today. I don't you just do a search for all the passage in the Bible that talk about God's will or the will of God. Old Testament, New Testament. Read them in context and just ask yourself, what? What does the Bible teach about what God's will is and how he reveals this will, and hence how we make decisions? And you've argued, and others have argued, and I agree with this, that they fall into either God's sovereign will, which we see in like Ephesians 1 and Romans 9, and even in the book of Daniel, I think it's Daniel chapter 4 about God's plans for all of mankind.

And some of God's sovereign will we know, some of it we don't know. and God's moral will, like 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 that we are sanctified, literally says this is God's will that you be sanctified and avoid sexual morality. So those who are listening this right now, we can do a whole other talk in this. We won't. Just use AI. Look for every verse that talks about that, read it carefully within context. And we think you'll agree with us on what it says about God's will, how he reveals it.

But let me end with this question for you, Greg. Because I know right now some people might feel a little bit deflated and go, okay, wait a minute. I'm sympathetic to that. I get it. So what does it? I'm not going to ask a question how the Holy Spirit is with us. You obviously believe that and you believe that God is guiding us through his spirit regularly in so many different ways. That's another separate talk.

But what would it look like biblically to make wise decisions since we're not supposed to look for these feelings? and nudges and the voice of God and the way this is often framed. Yeah, the decision is up to us. God has left the decision up to us. If he didn't leave it up to us, we wouldn't need a Bible. We would just need the Holy Spirit telling us we could take, anybody can take orders. It doesn't take any maturity at all to take orders. So what we have to do is look at the options that we have that we're faced with. And I think our desires are entirely legitimate.

Paul says with regards to marriage, hey, do what you want. I think you'd be happy if you don't get married like me, but, but, you know, it's up to you. So our desires are important, and I think God works sovereignly through our desires and our capabilities. And then we have to think of, based on our desires and the options available, are there any disqualified for a moral reason? Either the activity is immoral or maybe our attitudes about pursuing the activity, we got, we got bad motives or something like that.

Now, that still leaves a range that's open. And this is where wisdom comes in. And I can get wisdom from other people like you and I've talked about things in the past. And you want to get married to somebody. Talk to people. Get their input. Now, this isn't a secret way of finding what God's telling you to do. And this is what some people think.

No, it's your decision, but you want to make a wise one. And Proverbs has lots of information about that. And getting counsel from other people is really helpful. Then your own desires are part of it. And so what you're going to do is choose the moral option that is the smartest, wisest one, hopefully if it comports with your desires. Sometimes the right answer is not going to comport with your desires. And that's when desires don't make a difference.

You'd still do the right thing. So that is a kind of a thumbnail sketch in a nutshell, as it were, the decision-making method that I think the Bible teaches. It's our decision to make, but God gives guidelines. and teaches us how to make decisions just like any good father. And to visualize for people, the way you draw it out is like three overlapping circles. One is, it might be using wisdom. And there's wisdom books in the Bible. James 5, we pray for wisdom.

We get wisdom from counsel in other fashions. The other one is God's moral will. Certain things are clearly ruled out from doing with our time. and our bodies and our money, et cetera. And then the other piece, like you said, is our preferences and our desires. God gives us desires, and we weigh those together. But then you draw a circle around the whole thing, and you say, this is where God's sovereign will is guiding and directing things for the good. And we can trust and rest in that even when we don't know what particular decision to make.

Last thing I'll say, Greg, one of the wisest people I know, maybe you disagree with this. I said, what do you do when you follow this model and you lay everything out and still can't decide? He goes, just flip a coin. You know, at some point, you just got to make a decision. And then you live with it. You know, God is with you. You learn from it and you move on. Is that good advice or bad advice?

Yeah, I think that's fine. And the don't over spiritualize it at that point. Sometimes people might say, well, God's going to decide with the flip of the coin. But this is not a way of guaranteeing that everything you plan is going to. going to work out just the way you want. That is not the way life works. Even when you follow a good biblical plan, it can be really hard. And this, I'm glad you drew that big circle around the whole thing. This is where the sovereignty of God is going to work in. Even if it doesn't work the way we expected, God is still God. God knows he's the one that's going to have his purposes ultimately

fulfilled as we trust in him, even in the hard times. And you know what? Last thing I'll say, is I'm not sure God wants it all to work out in the way that we want because he's less concerned with our particular goals as our character and making us disciples. And it's oftentimes our failures and our shortcomings where we learn and are formed more into his character. That's a piece of this. I know you agree with. We can't ignore. Not just oftentimes, but the majority of times that's, you know, it's an all discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrow. but afterwards yields a peaceful fruit of righteousness. That's Hebrews 12.

Amen. Greg, I'm going to link to the three articles. Does God Whisper Part 1, 2, 3? Also, when God speaks, add that for people. Really read that. If you disagree with Greg and I on this, that's fine. This isn't about us. But take your disagreement to the text and wrestle with what it says because that's

where we're putting the authority. that's where Jesus put the authority. All right, friends, if you want to hear more on topics like this, let me know. Make sure you hit subscribe. We have some other conversations coming up. You will not want to miss here on the YouTube channel. And by the way, quite a few of you watch this, which is awesome, but you're not subscribed. So if you watch and you're not subscribed and haven't hit that notification button, make sure you hit it right there.

We'd also love to have you join us in the Masters in Apologetics Program at Talbot. Greg teaches adjunct for us tactics. We have online and in person. We'd love to have you join us. And we just finished completely updating our certificate program. And you have a lecture or more in there, Greg, that are fantastic. Big discount below. Check it out.

Greg, thanks for your time. Always enjoy the conversation. Me too. It's a lot of fun. Thanks, Sean. See, brother. Hey, friends. If you enjoyed this show, please hit that follow button on your podcast app.

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