The Sean McDowell Show - Tim Tebow on Failure, Fame, and Faith

Episode Date: November 4, 2025

What happens when you’ve achieved everything you ever wanted, but yet God tells you it’s not the point? Tim Tebow opens up about his journey from NFL stardom to a life devoted to serving the Most Vulnerable People. He shares how God changed his definition of success, the lessons learned from failure, and the stories of the overlooked and abandoned that transformed his heart. He speaks on how God redirected Tim’s purpose from fame to service and why humility and grace mean more than trophies or titles. READ: Look Again: Recognize Your Worth. Renew Your Hope. Run with Confidence by Tim Tebow (https://a.co/d/2zbqLMr) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [smdcertdisc] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

Looking for a simple way to stay rooted in God's Word every day? The Daily Bible Devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you connected with scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy Daily Bible trivia and humor, a fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your faith. Get the Daily Bible Devotion app for free on both iOS and Android. Start and end your day with God's Word. Search for the Daily Bible Devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store, download it today. Life Audio. I love sports. I love the game. I love to win. I hated to lose even more.

Tebow's got to boost down and more. Touchdown. And I love trying to be the best and be my best and win championships and try to win MVP. The Denver Broncos select Tim Tebow, quarterback Florida. God pricking my heart saying, I have a more important MVP for you to chase. It is not a most valuable player. It's the most vulnerable people. believe in a God when you see this terrible stuff. And there's a lot of evil that takes place every single day. You know what? We're sitting here talking. One study says that every girl is in human trafficking 5.3 times per day. And don't you think for that girl or her family that she would want us to respond urgently as fast as we can? Yeah, I think she probably would because that day is a living hell. Tim Tebow. Many people were first introduced to you in 2007. You will be first introduced to you. In 2007, you

won the Heisman trophy, quarterback for the University of Florida. You also would write Bible verses on your face when you played, and you talked about Jesus every chance you got. It's been almost two decades since that time. How are you the same, and how are you different from that guy we first saw? Well, Lord willing, I'm very different because of his grace and because of the reconciliation and trying to grow with him and trying to screw up a little bit less every day, although I still fall very short. And I'm just so grateful for his grace and the way that he has loved me and the way that he has worked in my heart and in my life

to hopefully better know him, but also what he wants me to do and who he wants me to care for and what he wants me to say yes to. I think that that was a very special time in my life. for a lot of different reasons that, you know, so grateful for the platform that God gave me during those years, which is really special. And that platform led to some highs and some lows. And during the time, it probably would have been hard to say that I was grateful for all of the lows in that time. That's fair. But I would say, actually, through those, I really feel like

God has taught me so much in those moments. and even more so than he ever did in the highs. One of the things that struck me about your book and actually numbered it in like the first five to six pages, there were six times you specifically said, I fell short, I failed. Like that was obviously intentional.

That's kind of a theme in this book that somebody picking it up saying, Heisman trophy winner, NFL quarterback, like the success that you've had, obviously there's online criticism. But I don't think a lot of people would think that narrative would be so prevalent in this book. Why is it there? Because if I ever point people to myself, I will let them down. But if I point people to Jesus, he will never let them down.

And the longer someone looks at me, the greater chance they have of being let down. But I know that King Jesus will never let them down. And so that's the heart and the hope is not point people to to me or any other people on planet earth. It's a point of to King Jesus. Because he is where we find our hope. And in him, we know that there's an anchor for our soul and that it's firm and secure. And me, I know that I'll let people down.

When I was a freshman at college, I remember we were very convicted so many times where I'd walk through the Gator Walk, we're all our fans, say, hey, you know, Tebow, hey, I just want you to know you're our son or you're our daughter's role model. And I would have this thought. No, not if you knew me on my worst day, I wouldn't be their role model. Not if you knew my worst words, my worst actions, my worst thoughts, my worst days, I wouldn't be their role model.

And there was so much about that. Then there would have the thoughts of pride because you'd have all these people wearing your jerseys and you'd have the thoughts of fear, of doubt, of man, the whole world is, not the whole world, but the whole country is going to watch based on whatever happens over the next three hours. And I'm either going to get way too much praise or way too much criticism for something that happens in three hours. And I used to listen to a song almost every single game, probably every single game in college by casting crowns called the voice of truth. Love it. Because I knew all of these voices that they were calling out to me, voices of insecurity, voices of shame, voices of guilt, voices of doubt, voices of pride. And I would listen to that.

song so I could remember the voice of truth. I remember some of the lyrics with the voice of truth tells me a different story. The voice of truth says, do not be afraid. The voice of truth says, this is for my glory. Out of all the voices calling out to me, I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth. And you see, when we look at God's word, we're reminded that when we know Jesus, we're no longer defined by our scars, we're defined by his. You know, we're, God doesn't remind us of our sins. He reminds us of our name as a son and daughter of the king, the king of the world, who have forever reign. And that's what he calls us. And I love when we look at scripture, how he has so many of these interactions with sinners in the world calls them by their sin over and

over again. We're just reading on the way here about Zacchaeus, right? And the world would call him by a sin. Jesus didn't call him by a sin. He called him by his name. And he said, no, no, you come down from that tree. And Zacchaeus didn't know it. But in just a few days later, you come down from that tree because I'm going up that tree and I'm paying for all those sins. you know and i just it's just so important that we remember the voice of truth see i didn't know this until we were an event maybe a year ago in florida and i saw you speak and i was like oh he's got a preacher voice in him like i love it it comes out you're preaching a little bit that's your heart and that's your passion you were sick i was so sick and you were so sick and you were so kind

i did not think it was very good but god's grace it got me through it so i don't think people would have known if you hadn't said anything you've obviously got a gear of toughness to push through stuff that There's no question about that. By the way, you mentioned your jersey about people would wear it in pride. I have to be honest with you. It took a lot of self-restraint not to wear a Chargers jersey today, even though you're Broncos guy. I was like, I won't do that to him.

That's okay. You can rock it. You can show loyalty for your team. No shame in that game. Fair enough. Now, you describe your dad in ways that reminds me a lot of myself. I heard you talk about your dad that day in Florida a year and a half ago. And you describe them in your book, which we're going to get to, as your, I think the title was your greatest superhero.

Yeah. That's exactly how I feel about my dad. Hands down. He's a living superhero to me. Tell me about your dad and how he shaped you. I would say less about my dad from what he taught us and more about my dad from what he showed us. I can't remember a morning that when he was. in the country or home that I didn't walk into the kitchen for breakfast and see my dad reading

the Bible. Wow. I, if I ask my dad about the gospel, anything about the good news of the gospel, he can't start talking about it without getting emotional. Wow. After years and years and years of ministry and evangelism and highs and lows in it, of praise and criticism, the gospel has got such a strong hold in his heart and in his mind. I asked my dad to share with our team a couple years ago on a certain passage,

and he showed up and he was ready to do it. And I said, how are you feeling about it? He goes, oh, really, I feel pretty good. And I was like, okay, awesome. He was like, yeah, I stopped and I reread the whole book about three. times this morning. I was like, Dad, you preach on this so many times. I know, but I wanted, it's just so important to him. The Bible is such as a lifeline and the love of Jesus. And to be able to watch him give his entire adult life to people that could never do anything for him

is why he's one of my greatest heroes, if not my greatest hero, is because he served so many people that could do nothing for him. And he did it with courage. And he did it with courage. And he did with boldness and he went into places that they said don't go and if you preach the name of Jesus we're going to kill you and he would get up and he would tell him how much God loves him. I remember one of my favorite stories was dad was preaching one day in a village and a guy was in the back of the village and he started making his way forward with a machete and he got right in front of my dad and as he was walking closer my dad just felt this kind of prick on his heart to start talking about forgiveness. So he started preaching about forgiveness. And the guy gets right in front of my

dad and he starts to get emotional. He looks at my dad. He said, I just want you to know I was sent here to kill you. But now I want to ask if you would forgive me. Oh my goodness. And then to be able to see my mom and my dad live out the call that God had for their life in such a real way. And to see what stewardship looks like and to see what caring for the gospel and for the for the good news of the gospel especially those that have never heard it looks like i remember twice in my um life and probably more times but they don't always tell me these things but twice i got to see it and we're living overseas my um my mom said to my dad we only have a few more dollars and my dad said it's okay give it away and both of those and you remember seeing him say that like you have an image of him doing that yeah i was

very young. But, and both times that this happened, we had neighbors that came over and they brought over dinner and they knock on the door and answer the door and say, hey, we don't know why. We just felt like God told us to come and bring you over dinner. And you could just see God's faithfulness show up and just their generosity and their mindset and his love for the gospel. And because of that willingness, even though he was criticized, he was an outcast for. from his family. He was this radical Christian that nobody wanted anything to do with.

Was he a pastor, evangelist? What was his like profession? He was a yes, all the above. All the above. He went to a young life camp when he was finishing high school and was the first in his family to accept Christ and was this radical Christian that went to the University of Florida. It started sharing the gospel with everybody. And then he went to seminary and followed Dr. Earl Rodmacher all around and studied under Dr. Rodmacher. And then he became a pastor. And then he went on a short-term mission trip to the Philippines and he knew God called him there. And so he picked up four kids and moved to the Philippines and then they had me there. And because of his faithfulness, over 30 million people have accepted Christ. 30 million people. Okay, I have a million questions for you about this.

But you tell a story, I heard you share this on the Jordan Peterson podcast, read it in the book, in the Philippines, a story of your dad and a boy that you say affected him for months. What happened of this boy that he saw? And tell me if I need to give you more details, because sometimes I tell stories in my books and people forget. It's the story of the boy with the cardboard box. Exactly. Yeah. Not months, years.

Oh. Still would affect him to this day. But I brought it up to him. And that's what the sincerity. Yeah. So one day he was meeting with some. of his local evangelists in the Philippines in the middle of Manila. And Manila is known for having the worst traffic in the world by far.

Niceest people. They like selfies. Niceest people. It's amazing. I would never drive there. Yeah, I don't have that courage. Yeah, I wouldn't either. No chance. And so they're in the middle of Manila and this crazy traffic and he's meeting with some of them. He looks through all the traffic into the intersection and he sees a little boy that's lying there and he's covered and soot and all the oil and gas and the filth that's covered in him. He's asked all of his pastors, hey, you know, does anybody know the story about that boy? Does anybody know that boy?

He said, no, no, no. And he just feels this prompting on his heart. That's your son. And he goes through all the traffic and gets out there and brings one of the pastors to interpret. And he walks over and this little boy sleeping and right beside him is this little tiny cardboard box full of just old. trinkets and he's laying there barely covered with a tiny bit of clothes and he just taps on him and the young boy wakes up and he said you know hey son you don't know me and I don't know you but I want you to know that that I love you and if you would like it I would love to adopt you

into our family and I promise that I will do my best to love you and give you everything that I possibly can and I would treat you as one of my sons and as one of my children. If you would like it, we would love for you to be a part of our family. And the little boy gets up and he picks up his cardboard box full of most things that we would throw away and he turns and he runs away. And my dad never sees him again. Never saw him again. Never saw him again.

And he came home and he tells us the story and he's told us many, many times. It just repeats it. It's like a theme kind of in his life in some ways. And the point of why he was telling us wasn't to tell us what happened that day, but how so often in our lives, that is us with God. God said, hey, I love you. I want to give you my best. I want you to be a part of our family. And we pick up our trinkets of what we think are so important, what we think is the next promotion or the next praise or the next team or the next platform or whatever we. think, but ultimately in the grand scheme, they're stupid trinkets that mean nothing for eternity. We pick it up and we run from the father because we think that those things are more important than the father.

That's a powerful story. And that theme goes through a lot of your book. We're going to come back to some of those themes. I have one more question for you. Our dad sound pretty similar. Radical experiences with Christ, revolutionaries, just wanting to shared the gospel wherever they went. In fact, my dad knew Dr. Rod Mocker.

I went to school with his son, which is interesting. But I'm curious, even though my dad was an apologist, I went through a period of doubt. I actually told my dad, I was like, I don't know if I really believe this is true. I had to figure it out for myself. He didn't freak out. He's like, I love you, seek after truth. Like he gave me the exact response he needed. Did you go through a period of doubt where you're like, is this really my faith?

or what were the seasons or experiences that made your faith real to you that give you the boldness you speak about it with today? Well, I don't know that I have boldness. You know, when we look at the word boldness, and we bring it back to the Greek, the word ptolema, and it means to put it all in the line to do it as necessary, and I've never had to put it on the line to do what is necessary. I don't, you know, I've won a couple awards for being bold for my faith,

and the first thing that I've said when I accepted it, you got the wrong guy. You absolutely have the wrong guy. I know a lot of friends, family members. Need a daily spark of hope and direction? Let the Daily Bible app from Salem Media be that spark. This free Android app delivers an uplifting verse each morning, plus reading plans, devotions, and trusted podcasts from leaders like Joyce Meyer and Rick Warren.

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for the gospel. I just got a video about an hour and a half ago of 12 people that were just martyed for their faith. Laying dead in a street. That's courage and boldness. What we have it because you get criticized, and maybe on some social media or something, no, that's the wrong perspective that we have. That's not boldness.

Like, whatever I've done is not boldness. It might be like a tiny stand here or there. Know what they're doing around the world. That's boldness. And so, sorry not to answer your question, but I was, I just, I don't think, that I've ever had to be really bold from my faith. My dad, loved ones and other friends and people that love the Lord around the world. Yeah, I believe that they're bold. I'm not. But what's the

question I didn't answer already? Oh, I was asking about, like, what were the seasons of which owning your faith, downing experiences? To back up, it would probably be to, even when I accepted Christ, before I accepted Christ, you know, we grew up going to church. How old were you, by the way, when you say that? I was six about to turn seven. Six turn in seven. Yeah. And I, for the young kid, six, seven. And we grew up going to church all the time, Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, hit a couple of Bible studies in between. And over and over again, my parents would say,

hey, Timmy, you heard what dad said or the pastor said. Do you want to say yes to Jesus? And over and over again, I would say, no, Mom, no, Dad, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good. I'm good, I'm good. Until one night I was lying in my bed and I knew that I was a sinner that desperately needed a Savior. And I got up early and I ran to go see my mom and I grabbed my mom and said, Mom, I got to ask Jesus to come into my heart now. She said, okay, let me go get your father. I said, no, mom, we don't have time.

Are you serious? Totally serious. That was kind of intense then too. And so we got down on a blue couch on the west side of Jacksonville, Florida and I asked Jesus to come into my heart. And do you know it's crazy? He did. I ask him to forgive me and he did. And so I'd say I think where probably a lot of the speculation was was even before it.

But then I would say even in that time, I don't know if it was doubting as much as it was just not having clarity. Okay. Like, God, what do you want us to do? And I think actually a lot of the biggest decisions of my life, I haven't had clarity. and you know there'll be a lot of people that say well god's not a god of chaos he's a god of peace and he's a god of clarity but for me and a lot of decisions i haven't had a lot of clarity in certain things and i really feel like for me it's been because i'm kind of a doer and a geter and wanting to get it done and like if i know i'll go do this and i feel like god's done that

specifically for me because it's no don't trust your own plan or your own ideas or your own athletic ability but trust me and i remember i was trying to make a really hard decision one day and i've been praying about it for years and years and i was like dad i have been praying about this for years and i have no idea if i made the right or wrong decision i had a timeline and i had to make it i could not wait and you know i asked pastors and theologians and all these people that we were friends with And I had no peace about the decision I was making. And I remember he looked at me and he was like, you think walking by faith that you're going to know every decision before you make it,

sometimes you just kind of make it and trust that God actually is in it, even when you don't feel it or can't see it. But that's actually what walking by faith means. And that was very impactful for me. And some people are like, well, God made this super clear and clear. That has not been a lot of my experiences and a lot of the hard decisions in life. But I also feel like it's also been one way that is really humbled me and drew me a lot closer to him. So it actually leaned on him rather than me just figuring it out and doing it.

I love it. So you'd say at 6-7 became a believer and maybe had questions, failures along the way like everybody else. But it has been a trajectory of following Jesus and not really doubting that really for your life since your sex. I think the biggest problems for me in my walk with Christ is taking him off of the throne and putting other things on the throne. It wouldn't be as much that I didn't believe. It's just that I wanted something else more, like I wanted a game or a championship or a title. And so I'd put these other things on the throne. And I know I love Jesus, but he's like three or five or seven.

and sometimes knowingly and sometimes not even knowingly, just being more passionate about something else than I was about my relationship with Christ and the call that he has for me. If I just really try to step back and take an honest look, I think that's probably been a lot of my biggest weaknesses by Walk with Christ. It's just he wasn't always in the proper place. Let's talk about your book. Look again, I haven't read others of your books.

Your team sent me this. Because I'm a professor. I spent a lot of my time in academic books and studies. There's some serious depth in this book. You did a lot of research behind it. You're talking about the image of God and what it means in Hebrew and trends that have taken place, like aware of scholarship that's going on. That's a compliment.

Like I read this this morning. I told my wife, I'm like, this book is really... That's just impressive that you read it in a morning. Like, that's crazy. Well, like you're talking to a dyslexic left-handed homeschooler. Like, I could never read that in a morning. Okay, hang on. Tell me about that.

You're laughing way too hard. We don't normally have a live audience. We have a live audience here if you hear people chuckling in. Can I ask about that? You mentioned that you're dyslexic. How has that affected you? Now you're an author. Like, how does that work?

Well, I'm grateful for so much technology because I couldn't actually take a pen, put it in my hand, and write on paper and have it make sense or be legible. Like even the Bible verse is. that you're talking about I wrote on the eye black. Like, I couldn't even write those and have them legible. I'd have one of our trainers write John 316 or Philippine Swar 13 or whatever verses. Wow. Yes.

So I'm grateful now into the writing process. I put it on my headphones and I'll go to the gym or I'll do something that's very easy that I just know how to do like the back of my hand. And I'll just have something on my heart and I'll share it and we'll record it. Or I'll call my ghost writer and I will speak it to her and she'll ask questions. And then she'll record it all on our phone conversation. conversations and then we just print it out that way and then I'll go through and I'll start to make edits from it. But I just, it's so different and I love it. I could never take a pin and actually

like write it all out. Could never do that. That is so interesting to me. Good for you for leaning into that. The title of the book is a look again and early on you there's, oh here it is. I'm a question guy. Anyone who hears me speak and talks, I'm always like let's talk about questions, learn questions. So Gospels and Acts, there's 340 questions Jesus asks. Letters of Paul 262. And he only answers it like eight times or something. Right. Very few he actually answers. So you said right here, said, I want to ask you a question that's challenged me over the past 15 years. One I can't shake. And the question, which obviously is at the heart of this book, which again is called look again, how do you see people? Yeah.

Why has that question haunted you for 15 years? And how do you answer it if you can answer it at this point? Well, I would say that the greatest way God has impacted my life is through the suffering and hurting people and especially the overlooked, the traffic, the exploited, the abandoned. when I was 15 years old, I was in the jungles of the Philippines on a mission trip, and I met a boy who was born with his feet on backwards. And because of that, his village treated him as less than insignificant, and they believed he was cursed because he was born that way. And I knew that day that he wasn't a throwaway to God,

but I felt like God was pricking on my heart saying, Timmy, it's not enough to just feel something. What are you going to do about it? And I knew that day that I love sports. loved the game. I love to win. I hated to lose even more. And I love trying to be the best and be my best and win championships and try to win MVP's. But I really feel it. And I couldn't have probably explained it at this moment. But what was starting to happen in my heart was God pricking my heart saying, I have a more important MVP for you to chase. It is not a most valuable player. It's a most

vulnerable people. I don't just want you to feel something. I want you to do something. And that I came back from that and it just it radically impacted my life that young man accepted christ with me that day and um it changed the way that the village heard the gospel for the first time and it changed a lot of the way that some of the people the way they viewed him uh in hearing the gospel and it was this this this challenge turning point in my life of of the first time that i would say I felt a call for something and how I would define calling, I believe is one of the more accurate biblical forms than urgent and divine invitation to accept responsibility for a particular task. And that's how we as a foundation talk about it, an urgent, divine invitation to accept responsibility

for particular task. And for me, it's been for caring for the MVP's, at least the last, the loss, the thrown away, the exploited, the abandonment. in the trafficked and that was really the start of it and then God has in his in his kindness reminded me of that many times when I have lost sight of that there has been many stories that I could go back to where I was reminded where the greatest work that he's done in my life was through the suffering of humanity and I've known when I've stepped in one I've had the greatest heartbreak but also the greatest fulfillment if that makes sense at the same time And it's where I've more so than a game, more so than, you know, any championships or trophies or any of that stuff,

it's where I felt like this was what I was created to do. Like as a practical, tangible thing on, I know what's to have a relationship with Christ and make Christ known, but if there's a practical way of like living out your purpose and we talk about that, the reason something is used, created, or done. Like, you know, and so like when I feel like, man, this is what I was created for in a practical sense, it is stepping into where the most vulnerable people are and letting them know that they might be vulnerable, but man, they're valuable to God. Is this a young man, his name you had in here that I think you have a picture up on your wall like at home?

Is that who it is? Different one. That's Fronsky. Okay. Tell us about him. The first one was Sherwin. Okay. This one, the way that I opened this book, this is with Fronsky, another really special boy to me and a lot of people. Many years ago in Haiti, there were some women that were walking and they heard what they thought was a wounded dog or an animal that was in pain.

They went to where they heard this sound and it wasn't an animal. It was a three-year-old boy that was on a mattress on a front porch covered in mosquitoes with club feet, neurological problems, and was abandoned. His mom didn't come back till the next day. He weighed 13 pounds, and that's as heavy as what a three, four-month infant is. And make a long story short, our friends, Mike and Missy with My Life Speaks were able to take him. him into their care, some ministry partners of ours in Haiti. And when I would be there, I would be able to carry this sweet boy, Fronsky. He never had the ability to walk or talk a day in his life, but I would carry him around everywhere. And man, his smile would brighten any and every room

he ever went into. And he hated when I would put him down. So I would pretty much carry him around the whole time I was there. I was just like, I'll consider it my workout, right? Get a workout. out in and I'd carry him everywhere. And then when Fronsky was nine, six years later, he became ill, started throwing up. Our team took him to a local clinic, and Mike and Missy and all of their team took him to this clinic, and they wouldn't take him in because he was less sin and significant, and he was cursed to them. So they took him to a hospital, that hospital turned him away.

They took him to a second hospital. They admitted him, but they weren't treating. him. They weren't caring for him. So because of the same reason, well, we're admitted him, but we won't care for him. So they got him transferred from there to a third hospital, and that hospital admitted him, but within a few minutes of being admitted, he passed away. And I don't know what's

worse when I think about it, that Franzky dying from a likely treatable virus or being treated like a virus. As if he was the problem. And we have a portrait of Franski and art. Looking for a simple way to stay rooted in God's Word every day. The Daily Bible Devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you connected with scripture.

Plus, you'll enjoy daily Bible trivia and humor. A fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your faith. Get the Daily Bible Devotion app for free on both iOS and Android. Start and end your day with God's Word. Search for the Daily Bible Devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store and download it today. TV Room in Jacksonville, Florida, where we live, because it's a place where many times I go and me and my wife will watch a show or a game or I'll watch a lot of sports. And I love it, but it's an easy place for me to lose perspective, right? And if Florida loses again to Georgia this year, I'll lose perspective again.

And so when I, but why I framed it there is it's Franzki smiling with the crown on his head because that's how I'm supposed to see him. As infinitely valuable, as loved, as treasured, as made in God's image, one of one, in love, by love, and for love. And so when we walk in and walk out, you can't help but see him. as a perspective changer and give her to me. And I really wanted to start this book with his story because it radically impacted my life. I hope and pray it will impact more lives. But the reason for that is so many people, because of what they have been told and what they have been,

people have been shared and because of cultural views, they viewed him as less than. But the awesome thing about Fronsky's story is his mom who abandoned him. after he passed away, she showed up to the funeral and the streets were flooded for this cursed boy because their mind and their heart and the lenses of their eyes had been changed. For this cursed abandoned boy, the streets were flooded for his funeral. And the mom that abandoned him showed up and said, hey, if you need a place to bury him, you could bury him in our family tomb. and why that's so important is because their mind and their heart and the lenses of their eyes were changed.

And that's what my hope and my prayer is with look again, that people's lenses will be changed, that we would stop and actually look again and truly see the worth and the value of all of humanity, because when we do, there's something that will happen. We will treat them that way. You see, you really do treat people the way that you see them. So we don't actually see people as valuable. If I was to say to you, Sean, hey, I just, I dropped a penny. Like, I really need your help.

Sean, we got to look everywhere to find a penny. You would look at me and be like, Baratibo, you're an idiot. Like, let it go. It's not valuable. But if I said, hey, Sean, my wife, Demi, she lost her diamond ring. I need your help. We got to find it. We got to flip over the chairs.

We got to find it. I bet most of the people here would help us look for that. Why? Because you know that it's valuable to her, but it's also valuable. it's innately valuable. But we treat people like pennies instead of infinitely more valuable than any diamond ring that's ever been created.

So when we leave here and we go see people, we just see someone for their actions or see something for what they can do to us. We see someone, and we base a lot of our value on people on the things that they do that we believe are valuable or not valuable, instead of seeing them for the value of how God sees them.

The infinite worth and value. That's the heart of look again. Amen. Well, the subtitle is, Recognize Your Worth, Renew Your Hope, Run with Confidence. But it starts with recognizing your worth being made in the image of God. That's right. Now, you present in here, and I was pleasantly surprised and encouraged by this.

There's been a lot of conversation about what the image of God means and some shifts in how people understood it. By the way, little plug, led by some Biola and Talbot folks. There's no doubt. Carmen Ims was awesome in this. She was a really big inspiration for a lot of this. Dr. Longman, Dr. Copen, Dr. Bird, Dr. McDowell. That is Catherine McDowell, not me. Like I saw McDowell.

I'm like, this wasn't me. Just in case anybody listening, got to punt that one. Although you gave a shout out to Morton Carpenter, which was cool. But I do want to ask the first part about Recognize Your Worth before we come back to what the image of God is. I want to know, what do you think are some of the lies that we've been told? That some lives matter less. That some lives matter less.

Okay. That sums it up. So today, basically, the lies about worth are that some lives matter less than others, and that really captures it. I think that's part of it. I think another lie would be that your opinion, equals your value? Like, if I agree with your opinion on faith or on politics, then you're more valuable. That's not a biblical view of humanity. Unfortunately, that's a societal view. But

people say, well, we don't really do that. Well, of course we do. Like, look at the world right now. You have over 50 million people that are trapped in human trafficking. You have over 700 million people that are malnourished right now. You have 400 million people that are going to be sexually abused or exploited around the world this year. You have 153 million orphans or abandoned kids around the world. And if they say, well, what about here in the States? Like, you know, just in one month, here in the month of April, over 111 unique IP addresses downloaded and shared child rape videos under the age of 12. So if we actually valued people, we wouldn't be doing that.

We're seeing them for what we can gain profit-wise or gain pleasure-wise, not value for how God created them. And obviously, there's a lot of people that love people here. I'm not saying that. There's a lot of amazing people. But we have a fight right now in our society on how. we truly are going to see people and then how we are going to treat them. And I go on and on and on the way we talk about suicide, third leading calls of death for young people and the lack of

purpose and meaning and significance with young adults, the level of depression for so many, all of that has to do with how we see ourselves, right? I don't think it's solely that, but a big piece of it is truly how we see ourselves and how we see other people. So let's talk about that because at kind of the heart of this book, early in the chapter, you talk about what the image of God is not and what the image of God is. Tell us how you see it. Well, can I back up and tell you how I was inspired for this in 2021. We were having Night to Shine.

Night to Shine is our worldwide celebration for individuals with special needs. And this is coming out of COVID. So we had something called a Shine Through. So instead of all the kids walking the red carpet, they would drive through this red carpet. And we're standing out there and we're cheering like crazy. And all these like corvettes and awesome cars are driving all the kids through. And all the crowds are going crazy for them. And there's this red corvette that's driving by.

And there's this girl with blonde hair in the back seat standing. And she's waving her arms and going crazy. And I'm losing my voice yelling for her and cheering for her. And she's in this red dress and blonde hair. And the car drives by. I didn't even know that our team at the foundation and all the churches were working together to put bumper stickers on the back of the cars. I didn't know this. But the car drives by and on the back, I couldn't help it.

I got emotional when I saw it because I see this girl and I see the bumper sticker on the back. And it says, royalty on board. And I thought, man, that's it. That's it. And so that really led me to starting to dive into what is it mean to be made in the image of God because we have the privilege of serving so much of the world that the world is overlooked. You know, 16% of the world has a disability. And I start to think because I start looking into it.

And then I remember growing up the different messages and so many times people talk about the image of God is that we are a relational, where we're relational beings for a relationship with God and relationship with one another, or we're rational beings that we have with logic and sense and we can, you know, think through problems and strategize or that it's functional. We're called to rule and reign and subdue the earth. And I think all three of those things are part of it. I agree. But I started to think that can't be all.

Because what about so many of my favorite people on planet Earth that can't do all of those to the same extent? or they made less of the image of God. And I believe the answer is absolutely not. I agree 100%. But I wanted to study it so that I have evidence for it. And so the first one that I got to read was Dr. Michael Bird. And he really opened my eyes to the royalty view. And so we started to study it.

And then Carmen Ims wrote a book about it. So we start talking to more and more people. And then you actually find out that a lot, of the Old Testament ancient Neary scholars actually have somewhat of a consensus on this, you know, royalty opinion, but it's not in the mainstream world. I've never heard a pastor talk about it. And actually, in talking to some of them, Catherine McDowell and Carmen Ims and so many, they said, thank you. Please go tell the world. And you're starting to think, man, all of these scholars that are in these, you know, seminaries, and universities, this message isn't getting to your mainstream churches and boys and girls.

And it really was a burden for me. I mean that in a good way to be able to share this. And so when we look at it, and really one of the big evidences for this is when you look at it in the ancient Near East, the term image of God or image of was used. So when we look at an Assyrian king in the 1500s, it would have been the image of Ra, God that they believed in, or the 600s in an Egyptian pharaoh would be the image of Ra or image of Bell, different gods that they believed in. And so you would look at it. And so it was a term, even in statues all over, that the image of blank or the God that they believed in was a term that was used for kings or for monarchs. And so for someone that would be reading Genesis, and they see that we were made in the image and likeness of our creator, that God loved us enough to make us in his image, they would have probably, for the most part, only seen that for kings or for monarchs, for royalty. But now the God of the Bible is making this statement for all of humanity.

And then some people will say, well, that was just before the fall, but it's not true. It's in Genesis 1, 5, and 9. That's right. And so when we look at it and we understand it how in the ancient Near East, they would have read about the God of the Bible in Genesis. It would have been a term for royal worth. Like he loves us enough that he would make us in his image and likeness. We only see this for kings or for monarchs, but the God of the Bible is saying this about us.

If you want to change and truly recognize your worth, it starts by seeing yourself how God sees you. And then when we fast forward that to the New Testament, and we look at the life of Jesus, that Jesus came on the greatest love story rescue mission of all time to redeem and reconcile us from our sins. And when we do that, that we are adopted into the family of God, that he is our father, then guess what?

We're also royalty as sons and daughters of the king. Right? So it starts in Genesis and it finishes in the cross, that his heart for us is one of royalty. And when we know Jesus, we are royalty. Amen. As sons and daughters of the king. I love it.

So I want to make sure people are tracking with this. Sometimes the traditional understanding of the image of God are certain capacities that we have for reason, relationship, maybe creativity, maybe emotional depth. And I agree with you that that's a part of it. Like to be the royalty and reflect God, we have to have those capacities. There's a line in the book where, like, God didn't pick a zebra.

That's right. He had to pick somebody with our capacities. That's right. But the image of God was reserved for the king. That's right. Because the king was like the God that they believed in who would visibly represent that king to the people. So if they wanted to know what the king was like or what God was like, look at the king. And we miss that.

When we read Genesis, it's like, no, God made not only men, but men and women is radical. That's right. Human beings actually are royalty on earth. We know what God is like in part by looking at human beings, of course, fully in the person of Jesus. But that flips it. And I think part of your concern that you expressed was if we limit the image of God to like certain capacities that we practice, then in people's minds, if somebody with a disability can't do those things, maybe somebody's not as smart. Maybe somebody can't do other things people can do. We tend to say they have less value.

That's the metric of the world. It is. Rather than royalty being on us. And that's kind of the heart of what you're saying. Look again, is like let's start at the basis. See ourselves as God sees us as royalty. Yes. That captures it.

We are created to be God's image before we do anything. Like obviously, we are called to do things. things. It's not an anti-work. Actually, this book is very challenging to people about work. But before you go work or do anything, you were made in God's image with royal worth. Like, I would also view it as the same thing as the gospel, right? That we don't have to work for salvation, but we do get to work from salvation, right? We have been saved from grace. It is not of our work. We can't boast about anything. We didn't do anything for it. King Jesus, Jesus did everything for us. But because he has done this for us, we want to go share this with

people. But because we were made in God's image and he sees us with this royal worth and he loves this much and he cares for us this much, now we want to go live that out and love people and try to represent him as best we can. Love it. We're human beings, not human doing. That's right. doing comes out of understanding our being which comes from God not our you say so many times in the book not our works not our effort not how we look not our successes who we are one thing I want to ask you about that I before I ask you this I love that you went there and what I mean by going there is you didn't shy away from talking about need a daily spark of hope and direction let the daily Bible app from Salem media be that spark this free Android app delivers an uplifting verse each morning

plus reading plans, devotions and trusted podcasts from leaders like Joyce Meyer and Rick Warren. Prefer to listen instead? The Daily Bible app reads verses reading plans and chapters allowed, handy for the headphones moment of your day. Choose from versions like ESV, NIV, KJV, and more, and bookmark favorites to revisit later. Share inspiring messages with loved ones right from the app. Feel God's presence in every notification. Search for Daily Bible app on Google Play and begin your day with hope, purpose, and peace. evil like I actually think not so much on a culture in the church sometimes we don't

really go there and call evil for what it is so I'm gonna read a couple things the way you describe it here I want I want people to hear it and you say so I'll read this one first and then I'm gonna ask you why you framed it this way so you're talking about the killing of in the gas chamber and of the Jews and of many of the yeah T4 exactly many people who who had disabilities and you say that people could justify the chemical showers saying they're not even human beings. They're animals in the form of humans. 275,000 children and adults with special needs were killed.

And if you include all possibilities, it could be up to a million. A million. Yes. Like that was new to me. But the way you described this, you're talking about this Latin American landfill. And he said there were about 9,000 tons of garbage. Yogurt containers, used sanitary products, diapers, rotting meat collected each day. It wasn't unusual to see dead bodies buried in the trash.

One day a dead baby was even found. Toxic waste from the site oozed into Guanabara Bay. Like, I could go on and on, but clearly this was intentional. Tell me about the thinking behind it and why you can. kind of don't hold back on the nature of evil in this book, which is ultimately a book about hope. Good question. Where do we start with that?

I was wonder when you're going to tell me good question. I've been trying hard. I mean, it started a different place. If a little while ago, I was playing in a charity golf tournament in a state I won't mention with some of the most powerful people in the state. and as we were playing early in the round I'll play your mic a little bit back so you're speaking to that there we are

as we were playing early in the round something terrible happened to 12 little girls in a location and I get a call from whenever we're team members and we're trying to step in and help this situation and I say I'm sorry guys I have to step away for a couple of holes and see what we can do to help

and so I'm talking to them some of them over here a little bit of the conversation And I finish and I come back and I say, hey, so sorry, guys. And they say, no problem. Can you tell us a little bit what's going on? So I share a little bit of some of the work that we're doing and specifically this case of of the fight against trafficking and exploitation. And they go, oh, no, no, don't tell us.

Don't tell us. Don't tell us. Because that reminds me of my kids. I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it. I don't know. And I, I, um, I, um, I, I, probably shouldn't have. I was in a little bit of emotional and frustrated state.

Sure. I probably wasn't as humble as I should have been or would have liked to have been. But I responded to them, people that could step in and step up and help so many people. God has blessed them with a whole lot. And I responded to them after they said that. And I said, if those girls could hear you right now, what hope do you think that would give them? Good for you. And probably wasn't the most humble thing I've ever said, but I was just so frustrated. One, if the evil is taking place,

but two, the people that are supposed to be that are in a place to step up and fight back against evil and to be able to step into the fight. And they want to say, no, no, don't tell me, don't tell me, I don't want to know because it's going to remind me on my kids. Yes, that's exactly who it should remind you of. And guess what? When it reminds you of them, you should urgently get in the fight

that much more so. And so why we talk about evil in this book is because there's a lot of people that are in terrible situation. There's a lot of evil that takes place every single day. You know what? We're sitting here talking. One study says that every girl that's in human trafficking gets rate 5.3 times per day. And don't you think for that girl or her family that she would want us to respond urgently as fast as we can? Yeah, I think she probably would. Because that day is a living hell. And I think for believers and people that are called to step up and stand up his fight, and by the way, I also believe that it's everyone. Like when we actually look at the life of Jesus and what he tells us to do, when we look at that 70% of his earthly,

publicly recorded miracles were for who we would call the MVP, the most vulnerable people, over 60% of his publicly recorded miracles, or for those who are afflicted, today's day and aid would have been some form of special need or something like that. When we look at Matthew 25, when we look at Matthew, or Isaiah 61, when we so much of this, and I love Matthew 25 because it's one of the few things in Scripture that Jesus doesn't use something else as the example. He uses themselves as the example. That whatever you've done to the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you have done unto me. Like when we are caring for the least of these, it is personal to Jesus.

And so if it's personal to him, I hope it's personal to me. And we are also told in scripture that God is nearer to the brokenhearted. And there's a lot of people that have talked about the different things that that means. But all I know is if God is nearer to the brokenhearted, then I should be too. And that's where I want to be. I applaud. Keep going. Yeah. But anyways, why we should talk about evil, because if we don't talk about it, if we don't look at it, if we don't strategize, if we don't step into it, then how will we ever

push it back. Like, when's the last time that a businessman thought, you know what? I'm not going to do any research and I'm just going to get into a random category and I'm just going to start a business. I'm going to start a restaurant. I'm not going to do any research. I'm just going to do it. No. If we want to actually understand it and bring hope into the darkness, bring light into the darkness, then we have to actually be able to get into it to understand it. What is happening? What are the proclivities? You know, when we talk about human trafficking, primarily human trafficking is for profit exploitation is primarily done for pleasure right you got to understand the areas of what we're stepping into of how we can best fight it you know when we talk about child

sacrifice why is that taking place right when we step into these places of evil like we we are caught i believe biblically to also have strategy not just be like i'm just you know i want to be here to help. No, like we are called to be innocent but also shrewd, have strategy, to have wise, to have wisdom, just applied knowledge. For these areas, if we really want to push it back, and I believe as believers, we are called to step in and fight this evil. Amen. And by the way, I also get fired up when I talk about it. Keep going, man. I think your response had nothing to do with pride. I think it was completely appropriate. Good for you. I think that was boldness, by the way. You might not accept it, but I think that was bold.

The other thing is if we don't talk about evil, the gospel doesn't make any sense. Right. If we don't understand the level of depth and evil that's out there and what we've been saved from, that's right. We're not going to be moved like you are dead every time he thinks about the gospel to tears. I think there's three things when I think about the gospel that we should truly understand that totally changes the game, what we have been saved from, who we've been saved by, what we've been saved for, right?

It's not everything encompassing, but man, they really do. change the game. What we have been saved from, Christianity is not average to a little bit better. It's dead to a life. Like, the gravity and the weight of that is so heavy that I was an enemy to God and there's nothing that I could do about it. But God showed up on this rescue mission and took on sin and death and defeated it and offers us. One of the stories I'll share sometimes to give a picture of that is when I was a boy, make a long story short, I got caught in an undertow, and then my brother tried to save me and got called in the undertoe, and we're floating to the middle of the ocean, and as we can barely see land, we can hear the alarms go off on land, and we're getting

farther and farther away and make a long story short, finally the boats get out to us, and they pull out there and they have the rescue boats, and they have the little booie thing with the rope tie to it, you know, and they throw it to us and the life thing. And we grab the buoy and they jump in and come get us and we're just so grateful. That's Christianity. That we were on our way to destruction. There's nothing we could do. We could have never swam our way back.

We could never wake it. In our power, I could never have swam back. Like I'm not even a good swimmer. I'm more of a sinker than a swimmer. We could never do it. But the life raft was thrown and we'd grabbed and held on to it. And that life right was thrown by King Jesus. Hey, I love you so much. I took the sin and the shame. And here, I did this for you. Say yes to it. There's nothing we could

do. So understanding the weight of the gospel, like what we have been saved from, eternal separation from God, and who we've been saved by. Man, it's a king that loves us so much that would put on flesh, live a life that we couldn't live. Choose to die death. We deserve to die. Didn't want to do it, but did it anyways. Like for the joy set before him, he endured the cross to spite his shame, finish his race, and then he sat down to the right hand of the throne of God. For the joy set before him. What was the joy set before him? In my opinion, the joy that was set before him was making you and me right with his dad. And in the same way that he had a joy in going through the hardship, we should have a joy in going through our hardship for whatever he's called us to.

For us in the fight against evil and exploitation and trafficking and sacrifice and all these things, what's the joy? Man, bringing someone to a safe place. Bringing them to long-term healing, being able to share the good news of the gospel, bringing someone to a safe place, man, like, that's so incredible. Like, what's the joy set before us? You know, I think if Jesus had to have a goal and a vision when he's going to the cross. Guess what? We should have a goal and a vision set before us when we wake up every single day as well. And then the last thing, what we've been saved for.

And that is obviously a relationship with Christ, a home in heaven. But it's also one of the things that my pastor, Pastor Joby Martin and Jacksonville, Florida, awesome pastor always says, is he said, once you have been rescued, You know, you accept the free gift of eternal life. Once you have been spiritually rescued, you're now on the rescue team. You're on the rescue team. Guess what? Will we've been saved for the rescue team?

The great commission to go share the gospel with people that are starving for it. We get to be hope carriers to the world. But so often we just stay silent. why? I know for me, I've done it so many times in my life. And a few years back, I was sitting there and I was like, just really convicted. Why so many times in different places have I stayed so quiet, so many times? And I was so convicted. I really started to think about it and thought, I really believe it's because many times in my life I have cared more about what people think about me than what they think about Jesus. That's a great word. that's a great word you talk about that in the back of your book part of the challenge to apathy is the regret that you have of not speaking up sometimes i hate that about times in my past i'm like i should have been more bold i should have spoken up and of course god has grace yes for that no question

about it we learn from it and we move forward uh that's a great that's a great word now i want to ask you about operation renewed hope but let me do it in a little bit of a different angle please you tell a story And I thought, you know what, that has never happened to me. What I mean by that is you tell a story of baptizing a trafficking survivor. I baptized my son a couple months ago, one of my favorite experiences, some friends and others. But I've never baptized a trafficking survivor. Tell us how that experience was so impactful. And then maybe the backstory of what Operation Renewed Hope does.

Sure. Well, actually, I've gotten to baptize quite a few survivors now. And probably one of my favorite things on planet Earth that I've ever gotten to do. It's incredible. And I had the opportunity quite a few times, and I just told people, I know, hey, have your pastor do it, please. And I've done it for a few other close family members now. But I've gotten to baptize a lot of the survivors that we're so fortunate to serve and really heroes of mine. And this came about because we're there and we're celebrating.

We're on the beach in Jacksonville. beach and we're just cheering for him like crazy. And some say, Tammy, would you please baptize us? And I'm like, I can't say no, but you sure you don't want? You know, I said, yeah, of course. I couldn't make it through. I was crying pretty much every time.

And it's just so sweet. And one of our core values at the foundation is that we embrace the joy and the burden of the calling. And I do not believe that. Want to keep God's word with you wherever you go? The King James Bible Study KJV app by Salem Media makes it easy to read, study, share, and pray daily with the timeless KJV translation.

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is the right thing to just do one. I believe you have to do both. We know the joy of the Lord is our strength and we know that we can rejoice in all things. Again, Paul tells us to rejoice and we know that we get to have joy. We get to have joy in the winds. But we also know there's a heavy burden. We're fighting against a lot of evil and there's a lot of hard things and bad things and evil that takes place and you have to balance both of this. There's a joy and there's a burden. There's a burden to get to as many. There's a burden just to get to one more. And we deal with a lot of those things. But, man, in this moment, this is the joy part.

This is the joy part. It's just like, you're like, man. And some of their stories of what they have been through that I can't even share. But I can't share. Several of them have changed their real identities for a lot of reasons, but several of them have changed it to different names. One of them changed it to a name that means Princess of the Lord. So she literally changed her physical identity, also because her spiritual identity was changed. And when that just hits you, it's just, it's surreal.

Talk about royalty and understanding the image of God. That's right. There it is. For fruition. There it is. Yes. It's so special. So one of my favorite things that I've ever gotten to be a part of really special. Oh, man, that's incredible. You're seeing, you wrote about it, but probably what you wrote here is 2% of the evil and suffering that you see. I'm an apologist. I teach a class on why does God allow evil? It's like the biggest question that people ask.

Like, how do you personally, I guess this is a two-part question. Does it ever make you go, God, I'm seeing so much. darkness. Like, why don't you answer this? And question God? And how do you just answer when someone goes, surely skeptics go, like, you're working with sexual trafficking and all this terrible stuff? How can you believe in a God when you see this terrible stuff? It's a longer conversation for sure. But the first thing I would say is when people, someone mentioned it to me yesterday, actually, about pain, about people. About people. people's pain in a lot of these areas.

And the first thing I said is God knows exactly what our pain is like. Amen. He experienced more pain than we could ever possibly fathom. God is not far off and where he doesn't understand. No, no, no. We serve a God that knows the pain that we've gone through. We serve a God that put on flesh and lived this life and went to the cross and took on all of the sin of the world of all time took it on himself because he loved us that much.

Like we serve a God that knows what pain is. And so that's the first thing, but we also serve at God that shows up in the hard places. And I have seen God do more in my life in the hard places. And I have seen God show up in so many incredible ways. And another thing I would mention is, man, when you see light and dark meet, you're reminded light winds every time. I love that. And it's not close. Like just every time you go flip on a light, you should be reminded.

Darkness vanishes. And when you get to see the life change and the transformation that happens, one of my favorite survivors, I'm not allowed to have favorites, but yes, I do. I have a favorite kid, too. Just kidding. They're here. That's definitely not true. I have a favorite daughter. I can tell you that, Tim. Let me find this real quick. Facts. So one of my favorites who's really impacted my life is an amazing young girl. And from the age of 9 through 15, she had to go through this hell.

She would go to school during the day and she would come home. And she would have to do terrible, terrible, terrible things almost every single night for almost seven years. And thank the Lord that she was safeguarded and brought out that situation. We've had the opportunity to care for her for many years now, and she's an incredible young girl. And now she's going to Bible college. I love it. And now she wants to either be a lawyer to help boys and girls that are in her situation or be in ministry to help boys and girls in her situation.

It sounds like both are a kind of ministry. She's asked to pick which one. She's got to pick which one. And honestly, I think she's probably going to do both. I love it. But in the middle of her evil that she was going to. going through. She wrote this. I have a heart time getting through it.

She wrote, rescue me, help me. Monsters are chasing, can't you see? Monsters are whispering, can't you hear? Monsters are shouting, you're nothing. Can't you feel my pain? Monsters are pushing. End it all. Just jump.

Can't you hear all the wise I'm asking? Monsters are laughing. You're all alone in this. Can someone please rescue me? And so when you get to see a life that's been through that, and now she's thriving, you see what God can do. Nine to 15 years old.

By the way, does anybody look at you and say, Tim, truth is relative. After hearing stories like this, there's no right and wrong. Does anybody tell you that, or amidst these stories, it's so obvious there's right and wrong and good and evil. Yeah, no one really brings that up. And I think the more you step into spaces like this, the less people ask those questions because it's so clear. It's a sanitized question away from reality. Like the people described earlier that I don't want to hear about it. There's a relativism there. But when you see it, it's clear there's evil.

Yes, that's evil. There was a text that Charlie Kirk sent out, an atheist was responding to him. He goes, you know, I'm starting to believe in evil and that Satan is real. And he said, if Satan, then God. That evil is a piece of evidence. We know that's unjust. We know there's something wrong with that. There's something innate in our heart and our soul that God has placed us, that we know in our conscience that this is wrong, that this is evil.

And I've never been with someone that regardless of their background or their faith or their knowledge of scripture, that's like, no, evil's not real. No, when you're there, you know these things are evil. You know that when you see a baby that's being raped, this is evil. When you know that there is a child that is being sacrificed for profit or for pleasure, that you know this is evil. You know that. Well, if there is such a thing as evil, then we know there's something that is good too.

Amen. And it should push us to that. Amen. It should drive us to that. And I actually believe that it has really helped me in my relationship with Christ and just calling in the fight against it. I actually believe that it has made my relationship with Christ stronger. Okay, so tell me about that. How do you not get either just calloused where it's like I just have to do my job and I don't let it affect me?

On the other hand, where it's like every single story just wrecks you and you can't function. Like, how do you maintain your heart that you can still cry over this without getting jaded, without your sanity, grown closer to the Lord? Like, give us an inside view of how you kind of navigate this pain and are drawn closer to Christ amidst it rather than further away. Because God loved her more than I ever could or I ever will. Because God loved her that much. And he has commissioned me to go care for her. It's our last core values. We call them our 5 plus 1, it's 6 of them.

But I like the number 5 for grace. And our plus 1 is always our mentality. We want to have a plus 1 mentality. It's always plus 1. And our plus 1 core values, we bring our best because monsters are chasing her written after her, after this girl. There are people with the goal to do evil. And Sean, one of the more frustrating things to me, is many times people with a goal to do evil work better than people with the goal to do good.

And we see it all the time. And why, in my opinion, it's because many times we care more about the credit than we actually do about the mission. But if we truly just cared about the mission, not the credit, then we would rally together. We would have all sorts of people. But think about it. You probably have some different experiences. but my just personal experience, not saying this doesn't happen a lot, but my personal experience of seeing a lot of people rally together.

I mean like a lot was when Billy Graham came to Jacksonville, Florida, when I was a young boy and all the churches put down everything they were doing. Everybody showed up at the Jaguar Stadium, and man, Billy Graham preached. Unbelievable, so many people got to say Billy Graham left. They all went back to doing their things. What if we had that mentality, though? what if we actually, man, it's about the mission. It is about caring for all these boys and girls.

It is about the Great Commission. It is about loving God and loving people. What if we actually had the Great Commission and the Great Commandment? What if we said, we're going to stand on these things and we're going to have differences? I told you earlier, my dad is my greatest hero and role model, and we're sitting there and talk, and we disagree with things, but we let those disagreements in the Big C church and in universities and all of this get in the way of us working together. What if we actually just stood in the Great Commission and the Great Commandment?

And we said, hey, let's rally us find ways to work together. Let's actually be the church. Not a building on Sunday, but the ecclesia. But actually a body of believers that are going to stand on the line for people and go to work for people. What would happen? Like, if we just had all of the churches in America say yes to one foster care kid, you wouldn't have kids in foster care. If all of them just said yes to one. Like, why can't we do that?

Are you freaking kidding me? Like, we could do so much. And you know what reminds me of is, I think there's, in first I want to say that, I think there are so many people that are doing amazing things. I have so many heroes. I'm not trying to say that to everyone. But I'm saying the principle of working together, we could go so much further, farther, faster.

And I do think there are a lot of people praying for it. But one story that I like to tell about that is Desmond Doss. Do you remember a story of Desmond Doss, the movie, what's it called, where he was this soldier in the Battle of Okinawa that wouldn't pick up a gun and shoot. He's got a movie that was... Yeah. We just watched it. Help us out.

Haxall Ridge. Haxal Ridge. Thank you. Good job. Exactly. What I love about that is during the Battle of Okinawa and I was just weeping what I'm watching, Haxall Ridge, because I was like, man, this is what the church is supposed to do. He's crawling while he's praying.

Lord, please help me get one more. And he gets one more. brings it back. Lord, please help me get one more. You see, what we do as a church is we either go and we crawl without praying or we sit there and we're like, Lord, please go get one more. But I think he does it right. He's praying while he's acting. Lord, please help me get one more. But I'm on the move. I think that's what we have to do as a church. I love it. There's so much the division is sideways energy that just distracts from the mission that you're talking about here. So I think you're right about that.

Let me ask you this. A couple more questions and then we'll wrap up. One of the things you talk about is not everybody is like contributed to the whole cost or trafficking. But then you talk about how the way you phrase it here, let me see if I can pull it up. People say things like, I would never be a part of that, which is a kind of just. justification. I'm not as bad as that. I'm fine. You included that. Like, how do you respond to that when someone goes, I would never do something that bad, Tim? I'm good. Maybe not, but you'll walk by

or around or you won't step in. And for evil people to flourish just takes good people to do nothing. I think it's Frank Turek said something like evil isn't something of itself. It's the absence of good, the absence of God. I don't know. I still got to process that. You've read to that from Augustine, but Frank probably said it just for the record. But when you think about that, right, and I still got to process that. But if we don't step in and step up for the gospel, for the calls of the MVP, for the suffering, for the abandoned, for the look past, for just the person that we see every day that nobody talks to.

right if we don't do it then we are letting evil flourish and so you might be someone that's yeah yeah you didn't abuse or hurt a kid but you also didn't step up you let it happen on your watch or you you let someone that you knew were suffering and you didn't share a kind word you didn't show up in that moment and i'm not just talking to them i'm talking to me i have done this that's my testimony and as a a church a body of believers my heart my prayer especially when it comes to this part about this book is that it the first part need a daily spark of hope and direction let the daily bible app from salem media be that spark this free android app delivers an uplifting verse each morning plus reading plans devotions and trusted podcasts from leaders like joyce mire and rick warren prefer to listen

Instead, the Daily Bible app reads verses, reading plans, and chapters allowed, handy for the headphones moment of your day. Choose from versions like ESV, NIV, KJV, and more, and bookmark favorites to revisit later. Share inspiring messages with loved ones right from the app. Feel God's presence in every notification. Search for Daily Bible app on Google Play and begin your day with hope, purpose, and peace. It would be one of the greatest encouragements, but the second part would be one of the greatest challenges. that when we would see the valuable to God that's vulnerable to people, how could we not do something? I don't know. If we really see them, how God sees them, how could we not?

It should stir us to move, to act, to do something. What are we going to say at the end of our lives? You know, we're looking back on our life or in heaven looking back. No, God, I really loved them. If he says, you did, then why didn't you do something? Well, God, I knew your word, and I loved you, but then why didn't you love who I told you to love? Like, we gave our greatest effort and passions to all sorts of other things that aren't going to last for eternity. You know, I'm just reminded of like 1st Corinthians, 924 or 5, like we're running these races to win,

except we're not running for things that are going to last forever. there's only few things that are going to last forever. My dad would always talk about it. God, people is word and rewards. Are we living for things of eternity? And I've lived for a lot of crowns and trophies and championships that have nothing to do with eternity. And I just hope when I get to heaven,

that won't be what my greatest passion was for. But if I went home now, unfortunately, my greatest suffering, which is what passion means, would be for a silly game. and if my life ends that way, then oh, how I missed the mark. In many ways, that was kind of a mic drop moment, Tim. But there is one more question now on asking you,

if that's all right. Of course. Early when I asked you, one of some of the biggest lies about identity and our culture, he said, correct me if I'm wrong, something like we don't value all people the same or equally. Yeah, it's totally true. We don't.

Is that right? Yeah. So in other words, we use some people rather than we love. That's right. I totally believe that. And we get it backwards. Instead of loving and valuing people and using stuff, we use people and we value stuff. Amen.

I love it. Now, part of my question for you is we talk about a lot of the evil that's in this book. In the book, you talk about a lot of the evil that's in the world. But then you don't let other people off the hook. So trafficking is using somebody for their pleasure. Not loving them, it's using them. That's right. Well, bullying is the same kind of thing.

Absolutely. It's the same spirit of using somebody. Looking at pornography is using somebody. Absolutely. So it's the same kind of spirit. That's one way to the question asked earlier, you're pushing back on, wait a minute. You might not do trafficking, but in your life do you use people? It's the same spirit that leads to that.

and that's what we often miss. But you have a big platform. I'm guessing everybody wants to use you. They want your time. They want your attention. They want your affection. They want your money. How do you guard your heart and navigate

when you sense that the very thing you're talking against in this book, people are constantly doing with you? That's a good question. I don't know if I've been asked something like that in a long time. time. I think there's a lot to it. I think I would start by saying it's just so important to be in God's word and around God's people and have actually have people that are going to speak into you and allow that, not just people that are going to talk to you, but speak into you. There's a really big difference. I really believe he who walks with wise and would be wise, but the companion

of fools will suffer harm. And in a multitude of counselors, there's wisdom. I really believe in that. And then it also goes, this question would also go to how do we make decisions? And for me, how do I make decisions is what has God really called me to? And how can I step into that and move the needle the greatest? And even if I'm being used in a way by somebody, but if I will be used if we can go rescue more kids. I'm okay with that. Like, you know, I, I, We will, I'll do it ever so we can safeguard and care for a lot more boys and girls, you know. And so I think every one of those, every decision is probably a little bit different, but I think it's try to back it with God's word and then ultimately really try to stay in a place where I have people around me that iron sharpens iron,

so one man sharpens the face of his friend, right? and actually have that, right? When we talk about that, a lot of people talk about that iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another, but literal translations is iron sharpens the face of his friends. Very personal and close, right? Someone sharpening your face, like, that ain't far away, right? It's very personal and close, and how is iron sharpened? It's centered on time, force, and precision, right?

You have to have the people around you that over time they're sharpening you. It's done with force. It ain't pillow hitting pillow. is iron hitting iron, right? Like I feel like too often and, you know, the church world's pillow hitting pillow. It's like, oh, man, you know, always so much encouragement. Encouragement. It's a wonderful thing.

But we also have to challenge and we have to grow and we have to push. Like how is someone that plays sports grow to be bigger, faster, stronger? You tear it down. You literally go to the gym and you were torn down to come back stronger. Right? And then precision. You also have to open up so they can hit the weaknesses, you know, the proclivities, the areas that we have that are weaknesses, the pride, the impatience, the lust, the bad thoughts, the impatient, whatever, all that we all have different proclivities. You've got to have the people that speak into all those different areas of your life. And I think all of that plays a part of this. So you, Tim Tebow, have truth speakers into your life that aren't impressed with anything you've accomplished, aren't.

impress with anything you do and are like I'm going to speak truth to you and you invite that. Yeah, we have quite a few of them. Good for you. That's a great word. Did I miss anything on the book that you want to talk about? It's awesome. I don't, yeah, care. It was awesome.

How always can people follow and support night to shine or Operation Rued Hope if some people are motivated? I really hope people get the book. I mean, honestly, I was up this morning, probably 4.30 reading it. The moment my wife came down. Sorry, it had such a hard morning. Well, I'm honestly, I'm kind of a morning guy anyways, but I just jumped right into it looking forward to this. And the moment my wife came down, I'm like, did you know this and you hear this story?

It's really well done. I don't read a lot of popular stuff. There's stories. It's personal. It feels autobiographical. And there's some depth and scholarship behind it. So check out look again. But how can people are like, we want to follow what you're doing?

Maybe some people are like, we want to support this financially. Tell us how we can get behind you. Yeah, you can go to Tim Pueber Foundation. and check out the different ministries and how we're working. And I wouldn't encourage them to get involved with us. If you feel called, we'd love it. But I would encourage you to step into some fight somewhere and some area to push back the evil and the enemy

because we all are called to that. And so wherever you're feeling called, I would challenge you to step up and step in. All right. Well, first, I just want to say thank you. I really appreciate just your tenderness. I've really sent your tenderness, just the way you love the Lord. I think it's beautiful and very powerful.

But my question is something that I struggle with in my own life and something that you talked about that you struggle with is this idea of you have Jesus on the throne, but then you have things that are above him on the throne. And these things get put above him on the throne. And so it's one thing to recognize those things being above him on the throne, but what does action look like for you when you recognize those things? That's a good question. What's your name?

I'm Jack. Jack, Tim, good to see you, Jack. Nice to meet you. That's a really good question. And I don't want to give you a cookie cutter answer. Like just, you know, just pray about it or getting God's word and it's going to instantly be perfect because that hasn't been the case for me because there are certain things that I really have a love for that I would always have to fight. But one of the areas that I've found in a very practical way that have helped me to change my heart, that God has used to change. my heart is serving. So I had a friend, I have a friend, but we used to do it even more that when something bad would happen to either one of us, like I get cut or he loses a job or we have disappointing, lose a family member, something like that's disappointing that happens to us. There was no conversations. We instantly, we had to go serve. Together, we were going to serve. there was no, you can't argue, you can't make an excuse to get out of it. We were going to find a way.

We were going to go, you know, if we needed to, throwing a hat in disguise, but we were going to find a place to go serve. And what it happened, you know, and this happened quite a few times because I've getting cut a lot. It's not that funny. Is there's something that it starts to change your heart and change your perspective. Because most of the time when we're doing that, it's because our perspective is skewed. And just there's something so, I don't know why God does it, but just when you go serve,

there's something that he does that it's God's economy, not ours. Our economy, the more you take, the more you have. God's economy, the more you give, the more you have. It's just different. And when you go serve, there's something God does with it. God can do whatever, whenever, however he wants. But I don't hear a lot of testimonies of young people that are like, you know what? Saturday night I was watching Netflix and God really spoke to me.

Just don't hear it a lot. But you know what, I hear all the time. Man, you know what? I was on this mission trip or we were on this service project and I felt so convicted. Or I felt like God wanted me to do this. I don't know why he does that. I just see that happen a lot. And so that's just a practical way of him impacting my life.

And I don't know if it's a good way to answer your question, but it's really impacted me a lot. And so when I'm feeling like, man, I'm just missing the mark, I'm like, I have to go find a way to go surf. Someone somewhere somehow. I think that's a great answer. By the way, your joke about getting cut. You start chapter 8.

You said, in 2015, I was playing for the Philadelphia Eagles. Scratch that. I was trying to play for the Eagles. Look, I've never been cut because nobody has asked me to play for the Eagles. So I consider it a badge from where I sit. Maybe you see it differently. Not at all. All right, let's do another question.

You talked earlier about lacking clarity at different points in your life. What do you run to? How do you make decisions when there's a timeline? Yeah, what do you go to? Great question. What's your name, brother? Jackson. Jackson.

Jack and Jackson. I like it. Jackson. Tim, nice to see you. Well, I would go to a few of the things I mentioned earlier. He walks with Wise and Moody Wides, a Companion, Fools of Self or Harm. In a multitude of counselors, there is wisdom. Our second core value for our foundation and our family is we value and seek wise counsel.

I really believe that it is imperative that if we want to be wise or make wise decisions, we have to have wise people around us. I can speak from my own example. There are so many times I'm so caught up and emotionally invested in something, it's really hard for me to see the forest do the trees. And there's been multiple times, multiple times that a group of, pastors around me have seen it so much clearer than me. I'll give you one example. I had to make a decision on something. I called eight of them and eight a seven of them said no, don't do it.

And one of them said, wait. I had no clarity with it, but they saw it so clearly that I could have confidence with no clarity because they had such confidence in it. And that gave me confidence to make the decision. Does that make sense? And so that was a, that was such a gift because I was so caught up and close in it, and I couldn't see it. But they all could see it. Timmy, do not do this. Do not do this. You know? And one of them said, seven say no. One said, wait. Guess what? That was an easy decision to make because I put them in a place where they're a wise counsel. And so if they're wise counsel to meet. Need a daily spark of hope and direction? Let the Daily Bible app from Salem Media be that spark.

This free Android app delivers an uplifting verse each morning, plus reading plan, devotions and trusted podcasts from leaders like Joyce Meyer and Rick Warren. Prefer to listen instead? The Daily Bible app reads verses, reading plans and chapters allowed, handy for the headphones moment of your day. Choose from versions like ESV, NIV, NIV, KJV, and more, and bookmark favorites to revisit later. Share inspiring messages with loved ones right from the app.

Feel God's presence in every notification. Search for Daily Bible app on Google Play and begin your day with hope, purpose, and peace. And it's so clear to them, and for me to go against that, now I'm just stupid. And so that's one way that I do it, because, you know, I'm blind in that decision, but they could see for me. And I know that they love me, but I also know that they love God more than they love me. And so that really helps.

And I don't know who you'd have in your life, but I'm sure that you would have professors and friends and other people that you could ask to be that. and I have never met someone that really loves the Lord and loves people that if you ask, hey, I'm struggling with making a decision, do you mind if I talk to you for a minute? Guess what? I bet you a lot of your professors would love to hear you out and talk to you and help you. Oh, for sure. I mean, you know, I just, I think they probably would.

But the question is, will we actually go to them to get wisdom? So I don't know if that really answers your question, but that was the first one popped in my head, Jackson. Thank you, man. Appreciate you. That was a great word. We went from Jack to Jackson. If the next person is named Jacksonville, this is a whole setup. That's exactly right. But I guess we'll find out.

We have another question. What's up, Tim? What's your name? I'm Silas. Silas? Awesome. Yeah, when you were in the locker room or just in the field setting, what were some ways you were able to evangelize when that wasn't the priority of the people around you?

I think it really would try to start, and I did this very imperfect. but it would start by trying to earn their respect first. So to give like an example, when I got to the University of Florida, there was an alpha male. And it was a middle linebacker, Brandon Seiler. And Brandon Seiler is one of the best linebackers in the SEC, one of the best in the country. And everybody on the team looked to B-Sai. And so I went up to Brandon early on in my time there, and I said, hey,

whatever you do, can I do it too? Can I do it with you? And he's like, do your quarterback want to do this stuff with me? And I said, yeah. And I would start to do extra with him and work out with him and do extra things with him because I knew for a couple reasons. One, I knew if I could earn his respect, I could earn the team's respect. Number two, once we got to the season that I knew that he's one of the best players in the SEC. And if I did everything that he did, then he was also going to give me a whole heck a lot of confidence once we came time to playing in the SEC. So it was to help earn respect, and it was selfish because I want to be as prepared as I could be. And so that doesn't really answer your question, but it's a start of trying to earn people's respect,

and then you get the chance to talk about deeper things when it comes up or people go through hardship or there's tough times or adversity, and now things of the Lord come up, and And football is a place where you have people from all sorts of backgrounds that come together. And, man, you get very vulnerable because you go through two a days. And all of a sudden you're talking about a whole lot of different things than you are just in workouts. And so I think it started with that. And then in the right times, you want to be able to share. But I also was someone that would try to be kind of careful with how and when I would do that.

because I also didn't want to feel like, man, I'm showing up every day and they're like, I'm not going to talk to him because it's just going to, I'm going to hear Bible, Bible, Bible, you know? And I think just try to have a little discernment. And I think I did that very imperfectly. But I would, you know, I was very fortunate that we also had some amazing chaplains that were with us that really did an amazing job of loving on the team too. And that made it really awesome to be able to say like, hey, you know what? why don't you go talk to PL, who's one of our chaplains?

You know, like, and so sometimes there's, it can be a really, you know, it doesn't have to be you that shares with it. It might be another person they're more comfortable with because they got to come back and be in the huddle with me or something else, right? And so there's like a balance and a nuance to it. Never that you want to be ashamed of the gospel, but it's a unique situation a little bit. Thank you, Silas. Yeah.

Good question. Hi, I'm Landon. So what are some ways you've been able to stay grounded in an industry where they value like a worldly thing so highly? Lina, that's a good question. First and foremost, it's because I nailed Jesus to the cross. Because the whips that whipped him should be named after me. And I think that's, that would be first and foremost. I think also when we think about.

humility. I know you asked about being grounded, but I think being grounded, humility go together. Modern day psychologists talk about humility is taking an accurate picture of oneself. And when I take an accurate picture of myself, I'm a sinner that was an enemy to God, but he went to the cross and reconciled me to make enemies friends. And like that's just, I take an accurate picture of who I was before Jesus, and it changes everything. And I think when we take an accurate picture, like truly

an accurate picture of who we are, an accurate picture of who God is, that is humbling. And it changes so much for us. And then I think God's humbled me in a lot of ways too of things that I put on the pedestal. And being reminded, it just doesn't matter. That's a great answer. Thanks for asking.

Thank you, Linden. Tim, you nailed it, my friend. I really appreciate you're here in Southern California. Your team reached out of all the places you could go to. You came to Viola, being the Think Bibbiblical podcast. Thank you, brother. My YouTube channel, man. This is an absolute treat.

We can't thank you enough. Thanks for having me. I still appreciate it. We'll do it again anytime you're back in SoCal. I love it. Thank you, brother. You bet. Hey, friends, if you enjoyed this show,

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