The Sean McDowell Show - Uncovering the Supernatural: Two Must-See Films

Episode Date: June 6, 2025

The supernatural is EXPLODING back into the cultural psyche and conversation. And yet what is the evidence the supernatural is real? Two new movies investigate the supernatural. Whether you are a skeptic or a believer, these are movies you will want to see. In this episode, I talk with investigative journalist Billy Hallowell film director Eric Swithin to discuss their two new powerful films of the supernatural. WATCH: "Investigating the Supernatural" (https://securegiving.cbn.com/films/investigating-the-supernatural-miracles)WATCH Trailer: "Show Me Your Glory" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jGM8u8TL2I)*Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf)*USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM)*See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK)FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowellTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=enInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/Website: https://seanmcdowell.org

Interest in the supernatural seems to be on the rise. Near-death experiences, miracles, demonic encounters. These are just a few of the examples of the type of supernatural phenomenon people are increasingly talking about and arguably experiencing today. It's no coincidence that two new compelling films which investigate the evidence for the supernatural are both releasing this spring. We're gonna talk about both of them.

I watched early cuts of each of the films with my 12 year old son. And let me tell you, it created some great conversation. We're gonna discuss the story behind each film, what stories and examples each of our guests today consider the most compelling for the supernatural and how you can utilize these movies in your life and your ministry. Our guests today are Billy Hallowell, which you will recognize from being on this channel in the past.

He's an investigative journalist with CBN News and Eric Swithin, a filmmaker and director for multiple films including the one we're going to discuss today, the newly released, Show Me Your Glory. Fels, thanks for coming on. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us, Sean, appreciate you. Oh, you're welcome. This is the first time I've done something

like this in my program. I don't like promote films, that's not my angle, but I know both of you, I know the quality of your work, and I've sensed for the last year or two that something is happening in culture about the supernatural. I mean, at this time, Lee Strobel's book, Seeing the Supernatural is launching into mega selling.

I'm invited to do this forum on a college campus, and they say, can we just, with an atheist, talk about our miracles happening today? Something's taking place. So when I saw both of your films, I wanna talk about your films, what makes them unique. But if something really is taking place in culture today. So Billy, let me start with you.

Do you think there's increased interest in the supernatural right now? And if so, why? Oh, a hundred percent. I think what we're watching on these college campuses, you know this too well right, we're seeing young people come forward with interest. Look there's a campus where there were 30,000 students and 7,000 students showed up on this campus

to hear the gospel. Not all of them responded to but the fact that 7,000 showed up, there's a hunger for the truth and And I think what's interesting about the supernatural is that it points to the truth, right? Miracles are evidence for God. And so when you have so many people sort of coming forward with this interest in culture right now, it only makes sense that we're seeing intrigue in miracles in understanding what evil really is that you're

going to see people turn to that because again, it points to the evidence. So I think we're watching that. And even let me say this, I have never done more press, you are film investigating the supernatural miracles is out and I've never done more press around a project than I have this particular project. I think it's because yeah, it's been insane. The people the doors that have opened, even in the secular world. Women's World magazine is featuring it in what to watch, right?

So that's never happened for anything I've ever worked on before. Well, Billy, there might be other reasons they asked you to do Women's World magazine, but I digress. We don't need to go there. That's a wonderful response. Eric, do you sense the same thing? What's your take on interest in the supernatural? There's a lot of things converging right now.

You see developing skepticism, especially with what happened with COVID. There's a skepticism towards modern medicine even. There's a skepticism towards science. And so you have a younger generation that is seeking answers. And so we see tons of really amazing opportunities developing right now, where there's this inherent curiosity that's brewing, and they want answers. And because of technology, they're able to do research on their own

and begin to ask these important questions. Simultaneously, we have the convergence of modern medicine that's catching up to the wonders of God. And we're able to capture scans before and scans after. We're able to determine what happened if there was any medical intervention in between. So I think there's a lot of things going on, not to forget the fact that you walk by strip mall stores and you see spells 101 books being sold in windows. There's a rise in occultism like we have never seen

in the history of the world. So I believe that there's a tremendous curiosity right now. And just like we saw in John chapter two, how Jesus turns water into wine, it says that His glory was made manifest. And because of that, the disciples now believed. So I believe there is an opportunity right now to say, when we have all these seekers that are looking, they're seeking, to point to God and His glory and say, look, we have

evidence here, we have evidence there. And even if you disregard 90 plus percent of the claimed miracles out there and just focus on the ones with substantial evidence, I think that we could really gain some traction and point people to Christ. At such an interesting point, because in both of your movies, you make this point like, look, there's a ton of claims about miracles. But what if we strip away 90 or 99 percent of them and just assume one percent are reliable in your film, Billy? I think you were interviewing Lee Struble and he's like, that still leaves us

with a million miracle claims today if we strip those out. Like just thinking about that is powerful. Now, let me take a step back. I've been in I've been doing apologetics for gosh, I guess thinking about that is powerful. Now let me take a step back. I've been in, I've been doing apologetics for, gosh, I guess about 25 years on some level. And the first 10 or 15 years, the culture was so focused on the new atheists that science is against miracles, God doesn't exist. If we just get rid of religion, then we'll have kind of a utopian, wonderful, tolerant state.

And I think two things have happened. One is there's thinkers like Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Rauch who are not Christians, at least in the traditional sense, who are saying actually Christianity is good. But second, this supernatural is bursting back in in a way. So I'm curious if you agree with this Billy. I feel like we're at this moment

where there's this renewed interest in the supernatural, occultic practices, new age, but we're not seeing a revival as a whole in the church. So we got to capitalize on this moment and make sure as Christians that we lean into this, but clarify what makes the Christian story unique. Is that in part what motivates you and do you agree? A hundred percent I agree and it is what motivates me.

You know, it's interesting because the occult, I mean, if you look at some of the polling and about a year and a half, two years ago, Springtide had sent me me research that they did of young people, they looked at, I think it was 13 to 29 year olds, and they looked at how often they were using herbs or crystals. And of course, that would be for the purpose of new age practices. And it was more than 40% were using of young people

in America, we're using crystals or herbs at least monthly. And that to me showed that there is an interest in the spiritual, right? We can talk about how damaging and dangerous that is. And the spell books, I mean, you go to certain stores, I won't name them. It's the first thing I live in New York, I walk into a bookstore. And the first thing I'm seeing are spells. Well, why are they there? Those spell books are there because people are buying them and they're interested because they believe there's something more. And so even though again, that's terrifying, it points to an opportunity that we have that there's intrigue, people,

and this is the other part of this. And I'd love for you guys to either agree or push back, but I think we're in this era right now, whether it's cultural, political, obviously faith, where people are realizing, oh no, I've been lied to. And it might not be that they're recognizing that it's a faith issue, but they feel like they've been lied to and it might not be that they're recognizing that it's a faith issue But they feel like they've been misled and so all these young people

who have been brought up on lies whether it's around gender or Moral relativism they'd hit this point where they've tried to live out this moral relativism and they found that it isn't fulfilling That there isn't truth in it And so they're they're sort of standing in the middle of nowhere they've woken up in the middle of nowhere and they're like, where do I go? Where is the truth? And that Sean is what you're talking about. That's the opportunity for the church to step in and say, wait, wait, wait, we have the truth. This is the truth. And I think that's one reason why we're seeing those pockets of young people show up on different campuses. It's not across the country, but it's happening in a lot of different areas and pockets, and it should be a reminder that we need to step up to the plate to meet that need.

Billy, I think you're right that there's a real skepticism people feel they're lied to. The difficulty is it's not like people go, oh, I'm skeptical of the government. I'm skeptical of universities. But I trust the church and I trust the Bible. That is not how people are shifting. So that seems to me when we make our case for the supernatural, we're going to have to do it with integrity and clarity, not in a way where they can just YouTube or search on Google or now with AI and find out that our evidence is bad. We totally lose credibility. So Eric, tell me how in your film, how do you protect making a case for the supernatural

without taking for granted that we believe in the supernatural and don't need to be convinced in a way that has integrity to it where even if the skeptics not convinced, they say, okay, that was at least a fair case. I've had the opportunity to do substantial research, but this was a couple of years ago. So I would suggest the data has probably grown since then. But there was this data that came out, really, really reliable data to suggest that young people are advertised to over 500 times per day through social media and through all these

different channels. Right. So we're in a new era in technology where young people in particular are being bombarded with supposed truths left and right. Now what's the outcome of that. Well the data suggests the research suggests the peer Well, the data suggests, the research suggests, the peer review data suggests that these young people have developed what we call fake. They spot fake. They could see it and they could smell it. And they see when you're being insincere, when you're just trying to placate or when you're not being transparent. One of the best things that we could possibly do is tell stories that are genuine, that have been investigated, that come from a place of sincerity and honesty. And honest storytelling is as ancient as writing itself. We see the story of Rahab, who is a prostitute in an Egyptian outpost in Canaanite,

who becomes a part of the lineage of our savior Jesus. And what made the difference? She said, I heard about what your God has done delivering you out of Egypt and parting the Red Sea. She had heard the testimonies of the Lord. So I think what we have to get really good at, and it doesn't matter if you've been a Christian for one day or 10 years, you can tell your testimony

and you can tell your story or stories of how God has encountered you and what he's done in your life, and you can be genuine about it. It's one thing to give the Roman road gospel presentation to a person, it's another thing. Like when I was a brand new Christian stuck in front of thousands of people with an interpreter in

Costa Rica and I'm like listen, I don't know anything about theology. I have no clue except that I was a thug a drug addict suicidal evil Probably a sociopath and now I have compassion and love My life is radically changed and the only thing in between those two is Jesus. And I am so radically transformed by that, that I have to tell people about it. So I'm telling you about it. And I would love to give you an invitation. And last but not least, we have to also inform young people of the fruit of what they pursue. And there is tremendous data around this in psychology

to suggest that the occult leads to depression, anxiety, suicidal tendencies, as well as many other religions. The fruit of Christianity is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and self-control. We have so much fruit to show and say, here's our testimony and look at what it's done for me and for me personally 25 years now. That's the blind man in John 9, right?

They keep demanding evidence and who healed you goes, all he knows I was blind, but now I see. Now one thing both of your movies do well is you have a lot of stories. You have people firsthand telling stories, but then you go to the peer-reviewed evidence. Then you interview experts. So it's not just story driven because everybody has a story today. It's a story that points beyond itself towards the intervention of the supernatural. Now, Billy, let me come back to you.

Let me take a step back. There's been a lot of people kind of investigating the supernatural, talking about this forever. Tell us what makes your film unique and different. Yeah, you know, I think when we went into this, you know, investigating the supernatural miracles, we were gonna do a TV series, and it wasn't gonna just be miracles.

It was gonna be heaven and hell, angels and demons, and miracles, and it was gonna be three 30-minute pieces. And the reason I bring this up is because once we had that green light and we started going out, we started looking at miracle stories, we quickly realized you cannot tell this story in 30 minutes. You need-you need a feature film to tell it because of the amount of time it takes to go into these stories. So, you know, we we immediately shifted gears and started saying, Okay, how do we make this

super compelling where we go from a 30,000 foot level, and we pick stories that we really believe are compelling and we really believe are true. And so we had to go through a lot of data, you know, and, and really look at a lot of different stories to say, Hey, if I'm an atheist, and I look at this, what is my takeaway going to be? And also, we went into this as skeptics, even though I'm a Christian, I want people I'm always that's always my posture. It's like, I want you to prove it to me, you're saying this happened, let's go through every single detail. Because I have lots of things I can say were miracles. And I know because God showed me they were, but I can't prove them to someone. And so for us, I think the differentiator is that we really, you know, brought together science, we brought together some doctors, we brought together people who, you know, maybe even some of the people who were looking at this didn't even believe beforehand, but because these were such shocking healings, a brain tumor disappearing, paralysis going away, and the only thing that's happening during this process is prayer, we walked away with stories that I think at the very least are going to make skeptics or even Christians who no longer believe in miracles say, huh, something happened there that I can't quite figure out. And that's just the starting point. So I really believe, miracles say, huh, something happened there that I can't quite figure out. And that's just the starting point. So I really believe, you know, for our film,

that we were able to deliver that in maybe a deeper way than I've seen some others do in the past. That angle as an investigative journalist really stands out in yours. And I thought at the end, I was like, wow, you did not overplay your hand. Even one of the experts that you interviewed, you know, Dr. Brown was like,

you can't prove a miracle, but you can point towards things that can't be explained by science and ask what best explains this. I heard that as an academic, I'm like, I like that. You're not overplaying your hand. You're helping people think about this

because it's tempting as Christians to do so. And yet I think people, back to your point, Eric, especially Gen Z, are going to see right through that if we overplay our hand. All right, now what's similar about both your films, in a second I'll need to describe what makes yours unique, Eric, is that both of you interview different people.

And in some ways you interview a number of more people, Eric, but in yours, Bill, you do less, but you go into more depth. So it's not better or worse, it's just a different approach. The one tie that ties both movies together is you both rightly interview Craig Keener, who is the world's expert

and has written the book on miracles. So kudos for doing that. But Eric, tell us about your film and what makes it unique and how it approaches the supernatural. There's a couple of things. You know, the first thing is that I was an investigator in the United States Marine Corps during the Iraq War. I was a nuclear, biological, chemical reconnaissance specialist gathering gathering evidence of weapons of mass destruction and through chain of custody, passing it off to the CIA.

My wife is an attorney. And so we looked at this as investigators. Would this hold up in a court of law? And when we scoured the earth for some of the best stories we could possibly find, right? I love what Craig Keener says, on two continents, 11 countries, over 200 million people report

experiencing a miracle. Well, let's sift through that and let's find some really good ones. So we have stories from Iran, Australia, the UK, all over the United States. And so I think that's, you know, partially what makes us unique, but really where the rubber meets the road is this. I have prayed for people to be healed as a minister and they died. Many times I have walked in human suffering to the umpteenth degree as a combat veteran. I've seen dead women and children that were the consequence

of what we call collateral damage on the battlefield. Shortly after the war, I watched the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami kill 250,000 people. So in our film, we cover three categories of miracles. Medically documented miracles that we investigated and found that they held up. In fact, one of them is an audio recording of the actual miracle taking place. The second category are supernatural encounters. And these are supernatural encounters that led to long transformational change, long-term, moral, sustained transformation. And then the last one is near and dear to my heart, and that's what really makes us unique,

is that most miracles are birthed out of human suffering. So at the end of the day, we needed to address instances where people didn't get the miracle they prayed for, and yet they responded in tremendous supernatural ways. And that's where the intersection of our film meets, is where human suffering is at and where the miraculous is at at the same time. And I had to dig into those answers for many, many years

because of my own personal trauma, right? I had major faith issues after coming back from the war. It was a crisis of faith that lasted me almost 20 years. I had major faith issues after coming back from the war. It was a crisis of faith that lasted me almost 20 years. And so for 20 years, I've been researching the problem of evil and trying to understand why does God do things sometimes? Cause we know he does. I've personally had encounters with God.

I've personally seen miracles with my own eyes. And yet there are so many other times where it doesn't take place, and we're sitting in our darkest hour or watching people in their darkest hour, and it seems like God wasn't doing anything. He wasn't lifting a finger. It's like he took the day off,

and I needed to find answers to that. Well, you both asked that question in your film, and I'm gonna come back to how you best address it. I wanna know if anything in this investigation, you both come in already convinced miracles happen, you both come in believing in the supernatural, but have investigative training and instincts behind you. Is there anything in just making this film

and actually investigating the stories that surprised you? Like it caught you off guard, like going into it, you're like, I did not expect to see that positive or negative. What's your take on that Billy, if anything jumps out? I mean, selfishly, I think it exposed a lot about myself and where I was lacking in understanding and faith. I was not expecting that. I was expecting to sort of walk away with my faith maybe sustained

and feel it. And it was, don't get me wrong. But I actually left my project feeling very much like would I have reacted the same way as these people? Because one of the things, you know, talking about human suffering that really stood out to me, and it wasn't until we were editing the film, until we had finished all the interviews, where I realized all of the people that we talked to, and we really tell three we were editing the film until we had finished all the interviews where I realized

all of the people that we talked to we really tell three main stories or some other stories off of them. But all of them, none of them got a miracle on the first try. They suffered and one of them he suffered for 10 years with debilitating headaches and pain. And as these struggles are going on, they're praying and praying and praying and they're, and they're pushing to the point of even being tired of doing it. The one guy, you know, basically said, Look, I no longer want people to pray over me. I no longer I'm done.

I don't want to go to any more prayer events. And his wife pushed him to go to one more. And that's where he got his healing. But it made me think, man, if this were me, if I were terminally ill, or I was struggling with this, before the film, would I have had that persistence to keep going? And I think the answer was no. And that was really convicting and challenging because I wouldn't have had the trust to continue. I would have given up much earlier. And so walking away from this, you know, to kind of bring it together, I think for me, I really felt like that balance that we're called to

of trusting God that no matter what happens, right, whether we get our miracle on this side of eternity or not, that I need to have that radical trust and build that and sustain that while also believing for the miracle the entire time to the very end, that is a difficult tension point. And it really opened up in my eyes how lacking I was personally in that area. And I think a lot of other Christians would probably, if they were being honest, agree with that in themselves.

That's such a good takeaway. You know, about a year and a half ago, people watching this channel know I went through some pretty significant health challenges for three months and was in terrible pain. And that story, watching it last night with my son Billy, and the fellow describes, I think he said three or four years with migraines. I'm thinking, I thought three months was bad. Three or four years? Like, whoa.

So you make the case for miracles, but you don't paper over the messy stuff about it. Neither of you do, which I appreciate. Eric, what surprised you most when you were researching and making this film? There are so many different things, but one of them, coming back to Craig Keener, I love that man.

He is so sweet and so brilliant. And he says, some of these quotes that he says, it's like the most simple thing you could ever hear, but it's profound, right? And he said this one thing that stuck with me, it'll stick with me. It'll stick with me forever. He said that more miracles occur in places where people pray for miracles more.

I was like, well, yeah, of course. And then I sat and I thought on that for a minute. And I said, you know, in the West, our problem is that we've lost our childlike faith and oftentimes our knee jerk reaction is immediately thinking of the doctor, rather than thinking in the book of James where it says, if any among you are sick, gather the elders together, anoint them with oil and pray over them and they shall be healed. But to have childlike faith and just say, listen, I don't know if God's going to choose to heal you right now, but I love you enough to put my hands on you and to pray and ask

God like a little child tugging on daddy's pant leg for a piece of candy, God, you're a good God and I know you heal and I know you're still in the miracle business, would you please help this person? And worst case scenario, they feel loved. And again, we had an opportunity to minister to them and show them some love.

So I think that was really key. I also really resonate with what Billy said. Some of these folks went through so much. And they continued to exhibit this kind of faith that just shocked me. And you know there have been times where I was like really, really sick for just a few days, right? And I'm like, God, where are you? You've abandoned me. You know, I sounded like Job. And what's interesting is my takeaway from Job now, especially after making this film, is in chapter 38, when God pulls up, and it's not like he pulls up and puts his arm around

Job and says, hey, son, let me have a chat with you. It says that he shows up in a whirlwind. And he tells Job, brace yourself. I'm going to speak to you. And what was the moral of the whole thing? Were you there when I led the Leviathan around on a little leash, like a chihuahua? Were you there when I formed the earth? And he goes through this litany of examples

of how his ways are higher and his thoughts are higher. And he's there to say, do you trust me or not? And that is the essence of faith, that we don't necessarily see or understand the mystery of our suffering in the moment, but would we be willing to trust the character of God and put our trust in Him? This is something in my quiet time the other day that hit me like a ton of bricks It says when Jesus is speaking to doubting Thomas

He says blessed are those who believe without seeing and I heard in my thoughts in that moment Blessed are those who believe without feeling? When we don't feel God's presence and when our emotions are betraying us and our heart is trying to lead us astray and we are in the middle, like we say in the Marine Corps, we're in the middle of the suck, we're in the middle of the trenches, everything around us feels like it's falling apart. Would we be willing to put our faith in God and trust him regardless of how we feel or regardless of our understanding of what we're going through?

That we would just put our trust in Him with simple childlike faith and just hang on, like in the movie, a long time ago, there was a movie about tornadoes, and I remember in the end scene, they're holding onto this little drainage pipe, and the only thing left in the house is the foundation and this drainage pipe. You know, that's what it feels like

in those moments. Would we be willing to hold on like that? I love that. And by the way, Sean, can I, oh yeah, go ahead. Well, I was gonna, I'm sorry, I wanted to throw something out there because in light of what Eric just said, I mean, Eric, I don't know, I don't know your thoughts on this. But I walked away. I've walked away a little bit haunted by the notion of the idea that and this is, again, challenging to me, but that there are people potentially of all this is true, right? If these investigations are true, and these miracles are happening as we believe they do, and they can, are there

people and I want to be careful how I say this, because not everybody's going to get a miracle on this side of eternity. And there are things that are very complicated that we can't fully understand even. But are there people who are not healed and who actually needlessly suffer because there's a lack of faith or trust that healing is even possible? And I walked away very challenged by that and actually haunted by the idea that I've contributed to that even in my own life by not having that belief and that other Christians could be, you know, inadvertently not helping their fellow believers because they're not willing to even embrace the idea that this is possible. So I just wanted to throw that out there because it dovetails with that trust that you're speaking about there. Yeah, I think there's tremendous biblical precedent

for the mystery of our faith leading to a manifestation of God's glory. It's not to say that God isn't fully sovereign and fully in control because we know that he is. And for centuries, we've tried to reconcile God's sovereignty with total free will. But we're these little three-dimensional beings that can barely see two spaces ahead or two moves ahead on the chessboard.

We serve a God that stands outside of time and space, and He sees infinite moves ahead. And so I believe that for some reason, God has chosen to partner with us in prayer. And we see that in Jesus's hometown that he performed very few miracles because of their lack of faith We see again and again in the miracle accounts in Scripture where Jesus tells the person your faith has healed you So there is tremendous power in our prayers and faith that the fervent prayers of a righteous man a man who's in Christ, availeth much, they accomplish much.

And so, like I was mentioning earlier from Craig Keener's quote, I believe we're missing out on miracles all the time simply because we just didn't ask. In fact, the book of James says, you have not because you didn't ask. Now, we also see on the cutting edge of ministry, I just got back from a mission

trip to Pakistan, which was wild. And because the cost of being a Christian there is so radical. If you become a Christian, you are signing up for persecution and poverty and a litany of other things. The cost is so high there and yet the faith is so radical. So we were seeing miracles all the time. I saw demonic possession and I saw in the name of Jesus those demons leave a person. I got to participate in that. I got to pray for people who are healed right there. So as Craig Keener says and as a lot of study suggests, on the cutting edge of the gospel, where it's pushing into the darkest places, we see a lot of miracles.

But I also believe that it's happening in those places because in places like Pakistan and the slave factories, they have no alternative besides prayer. It's not like they could go to the hospital. They have no, it's either God heals them or they die God heals them or they remain in their sickness The last thing I'll say and it's such a good reminder is that Lazarus ended up dying again The blind man ended up dying again

Every person that has ever received a miracle in this life ends up dying ever received a miracle in this life ends up dying eventually. Miracles are these little bursts of the kingdom into this reality to remind us there is a God and there's an eternity. And we should remind ourselves that even if we don't get that miracle, that all the miracles from other people that are around us should be a huge encouragement to us. I love that. Let me follow up with this

because I think Billy's question was really insightful. You clearly point out that miracles are tied to faith and yet with faith, sometimes miracles don't happen. So how do we just toe that line or balance having bold faith that God can and will work a miracle, also knowing he might not, but not shaming people by saying, well, you just didn't have enough faith, so it's on them, which makes people feel worse.

How do we keep that tension? I'd love to hear from both of you, but Eric, give me your thoughts on that. At the end of the day, you just touched on something I literally just dealt with at a conference. And we got into a heated debate in the room because there were people that believed if you did not receive your miracle, it's because you didn't pray hard enough,

your faith wasn't good enough. Either the recipient didn't have the faith or the one that was doing the praying didn't have adequate faith. And I paused the conversation, and I said, that is spiritual abuse. Good for you. At the end of the day, that is so harmful. And it's opposed to grace itself. If it was really dependent on us mustering up enough faith all the time, we're putting way too much confidence in ourselves. I think that there is a really healthy balance. And this is where I've landed because I used to be pretty radical. And I'd pray for people like I mean, I was yelling at the sickness in them telling it to go and they'd walk away. I'm like, do you feel any different? They're like, nope. And I'm like, Oh, man, this is really embarrassing. You know, at the end of the day, where I'm at now, all these years later, is I love to show people my faith and

love and just say, Listen, Sean, you're obviously in pain. And I wouldn't be very loving if I didn't pray for you. And ask God, our loving father, if he'd be willing to heal you. Now, keep in mind, Sean, that my dad said on his deathbed that cancer was the greatest gift he'd ever received because, A, it reconciled him to a loved one and, B, he found Christ in the midst of his agonizing suffering. I said, what? I love you too much to not at least lay my hands on your knee and pray for your knee to be healed. And I've seen God heal people many times. But if he doesn't, we can trust him that he loves you and his plan is best.

And everything in your life is for your good if you love him and are called according to his purposes. That's a great answer. I don't know if we get anything to that, but Billy, how do you kind of live in that tension? Yeah, I think it comes anything to that, but Billy, how do you kind of live in that tension? Yeah, I think it comes back to that trust, right? When you don't have that trust, and I think that's what was so convicting to me, realizing it myself, that I probably didn't have that level of trust that I needed to have. You know, God's purpose is, you know, if it's all about Him, then the obsession over getting the result we want, of course,

there's nothing wrong with wanting that result and praying for it, but understanding that God has a will and that we may not always be able to comprehend how it makes sense that we didn't get the healing we wanted on this side. The other piece of this that was really interesting to me was looking at the suffering that people have gone through. I don't wanna trivialize it or minimize it. What is God teaching us in the midst of those struggles?

What did these people learn during the know, during the 10 years, for instance, that, you know, we had paralysis in one of our interview subjects. What did he learn in that journey? What is God preparing us for? And so I've come to terms with that reality that we need to place our trust radically in God while also believing.

And I think we can do those things simultaneously as difficult as it is. And the other thing too, you know, we had one person who experienced a miracle. He was dead for 40 minutes. It's one of the most insane stories that I've ever and I've ever heard when we went into film and I was like, okay, God, I don't know if I I don't know if I believe this prove it to me, you know, and he was dead for 40 minutes was not a believer and came out of that experience after a miracle as a believer. And so that's an example of, you know, somebody's faith being

built as being the subject of this incredible miracle. So this is complicated. But I think if we can pull ourselves back in true death to self, right, which is what we see scripture talk about, is really holding ourselves over to the Lord. And that's what we're really talking about. That's where that trust is rooted. And so I'm comfortable with that now. And this film really helped me in this journey, really helped me get there.

And my hope is that other people will both hold on to hope, but also the belief that they can have that full trust in the Lord. That was a great answer. It leads me into the next question I have about what research you find most compelling for the supernatural. But before we get there, two comments. We had a student at Talbot a number of years ago, and he's from Africa. I forget what country it was. And one of our professors asked him,

why do you think we hear about or potentially see more miracles in Africa than we do in the States he goes oh it's easy 9-1-1 I was like what do you mean he goes your default is to call 9-1-1 he goes I'm not saying that's bad we don't have 9-1-1 our default is to pray sometimes that's all we have and your point Eric that Keener made is the more you pray the more miracles you'll see it's so simple and yet brilliant and I also like the point you pray, the more miracles you'll see. It's so simple and yet brilliant. And I also like the point you made, Billy, which is in your film about Keener when he's asked, why doesn't God heal everybody?

And in part, he goes, well, if he healed everyone who prayed, then God would become like a slot machine that you go to to get things out of him. And I thought, how interesting. I mean, Jesus spoke in parables, sometimes to kind of hide what he was teaching, to cipher out those who were there for just like the show or the food

and those who came to him and said, what do you mean I want that wisdom? I think that's a piece of it as well. Now with that said, I don't want to steal the thunder, but I want to motivate people to check out both of your films because again, I enjoy both and as a dad, I'm like thankful that I have something to watch with my kids that are provocative.

And by the way, Eric, your film is PG-13, right? Correct. It's PG-13. I was interviewed in that one, but my son is 12. We watched it, but you're trying to reach a different audience than your typical like church going audience. So that's why just because some of the themes that are intense there. But maybe since you brought it up, Billy, let's start with you.

You mentioned someone to be dead for 40 minutes. So we're just going to kind of have to pivot to that one. You tell the story in the movie, but tell us what happened, tell us how it affected you and why you think he really was dead 40 minutes and it was a miracle. Well, yeah, so we not only have, let's start with that. We not only have the medical records, but we have the doctor who presided over this entire thing,

Dr. Chauncey Crandall, who was in the documentary and who was in the room with Jeff Markin, the man who was dead for 40 minutes This story is really a wild one. Jeff had a heart attack He went to the hospital He actually collapsed in the emergency room and the doctor on call was Chauncey Crandall and they're trying to bring this man back You know, they're trying to revive him the nurses the doctors. They're in a hospital room This goes on for 40 minutes to no avail, they call his death.

So at this point, they've called Jeff Markins death, they've said, take him to the morgue, this is over. So Chauncey Crandall, who was in the room, the doctor, he leaves the room, and starts walking down the hallway. And he says he felt God say to him, go back and pray for that man. He initially ignores that prompting because it seems insane. The man's dead. It's been 40 minutes. And, you know, I should mention that Chauncey Crandell also had something happen in his life a couple of years before this,

the death of his son due to leukemia. So this is a man who had suffered, did not get a miracle that he wanted, and I'll come back to that. But he finally listens to God and goes back into the room because he gets another prompting to go and pray for him. So imagine they're cleaning the body in this room preparing to bring it to the morgue and the doctor comes in and says, I'm going to pray over this body. They're looking at him like he's insane. So he prays over Jeff Markin. And he says to one of the nurses in the room, shock him one more time. And of course, they're saying we can't do that. We couldn't get a heartbeat when we tried if we

shock him and he does get a heartbeat back, which won't happen. He would be in a vegetative state, right? There would be no way this would be a disaster. But they shock him because he insists on it and immediately they get a heartbeat back a perfect heartbeat. And two days later, Jeff Markin wakes up in the hospital. Not only is he completely healthy, but we interviewed him in the documentary. And it's just a crazy story. It brought him to faith. He had a near death experience, which we cover in investigating the supernatural

miracles. And I won't get into that now, but the impact it had on me was again, this realization. I think a lot of times as Christians, we say, Oh, well, you know, I believe that in my mind, right? I haven't experienced it. I don't really know if I even believe it in my heart, but the Bible says it, it's true. And we know that the Bible is true. But I think my point is to actually see a case, understand that this is still something that is happening in our world today was really eye opening to me as a Christian, selfishly to be able to see that and experience it and talk with those involved. But I think it also points back to,

again, the doctor at the center of this went through a trauma of his own, not getting the miracle he fought for. And yet today, God is using him in remarkable ways. He's seeing all sorts of healings in addition to what we just talked about. Two quick follow-ups before I come to you, Eric. Number one, why did he say, shock him?

Why not just say, stand up, pick up your mat and walk? You know, I think he felt the Lord, he felt the Lord calling him to do that, right? And in those moments, again, it seems insane and we don't know why God calls us to certain things, but it's a good question. But I think in those moments, He felt the Lord say to him,

have them shock him again. And maybe it was for the benefit even of them, right? Of these individuals in the room, the nurse and the doctor, we don't fully know. But... Well, in one sense, they had shocked him multiple times, 10, 15, 20, 30, 40 minutes earlier. So what's the difference now?

We're gonna shock them again, but this time with prayer. So it's showing distinctly that maybe medicine has its limits. I mean, we can only speculate on these things, but it's interesting why God works the way he does. Second one, both of you, what I appreciate about it is you interview the families and people affected,

but then you have these dramatizations where you hired kind of actors and actresses to play this out so we could re-kind of envision it. There's a nurse that's there. And when the movie was done, I said to my wife, we watched it last night, Bill, I was like, oh, why didn't they interview the nurse? Was she not available? Would she not do it? I know sometimes people are really hesitant. Did that cross your mind?

Yeah, it did. You know, a lot of this crossed our mind. And there were people who were sometimes hesitant. In that case, I don't remember the nurse in particular, why we did not talk with her. But there are people, and this is interesting, and I think this is part of the tension, and Eric, I don't know if you experienced this,

there are doctors and there are medical professionals who they can't explain what happened and they were there. But they don't want to talk about it either, especially those who don't believe who are in the non believer category, they're almost comfortable some of these individuals with well, I can't explain it. And that's okay, which for me, as an investigative journalist, like I always want an answer, I want to get as close as I can get but I think when your worldview is sometimes challenging and again I'm not saying that's the case with the nurse because I don't particularly remember

I'm in her case you sometimes retreat from even wanting to speak about it and we did see that in one of our other cases Where they weren't denying it, but they weren't really interested in engaging a conversation on it And Billy you've talked about this in terms of like in the demonic. And there's even more reason you wouldn't want to talk about an encounter with the demonic. Like is there something wrong with me and near-death experiences? These are not people trying to write books and make money on this and profit for personal gain or fame. They're like hesitant and reluctant to share. Did you come across that, Eric, that there were people with kind of dramatic stories

and they just didn't really want to share it? Or they're like, give me a mic. I want to tell the world about this amazing healing or is it some combination of the two? It's interesting that you bring that up because one of our stories had never been told except to two people. In fact, this young lady's parents didn't even know she was so embarrassed by her story that she had to pray for quite a while and get back to us as far

as whether or not she wanted this thing aired out in front of the world. And her story has actually become one of my very favorites. And so we found a lot of reluctance. In fact, we're also releasing a book at the same time our film hits theaters that's close to 400 pages. And part of that was because we had so much evidence, so many great stories and so much that needed to be said that we wanted to make an eight hour film

and they said no, right? So we wanted to keep it under two hours and the overflow goes into this book. But here's what was interesting and frustrating. It's interesting that some of these people's story had not been told and it was because they're embarrassed or they're hesitant to do it. But there are also a lot of people that retracted their stories at the last second from our book

and said, we do not want to do this. And so part of me was really grieved that they had these powerful testimonies that needed to be shared, but they were too embarrassed or they were worried about their children, getting bad press because of their past or potential characters from their past that would resurface. And there were all these fears and concerns. And so really with our

stories, I didn't get the sense that any of our characters, and we tell eight stories in our film and we tell like 16 in our book. I didn't really get an overwhelming sense that any of these people were like super hungry to share. It was a lot of times very private and very personal. And to be honest, some of our stories, when they're explaining their story, it's so radical and hard to believe that they have received tremendous criticism to this day about their stories. Yeah. And so yeah, they're a reluctance. You would think, you know, they're

just looking for a platform that, you know, they just want to get famous and get notoriety. No, most all these people want to just be left alone, but they feel a heavy sense of responsibility because God was so gracious to intervene in their life in some profound way that they have to steward that story, their testimony, like they steward their wealth or they steward their health. They need to steward their time.

We all need to steward our testimony, but these people feel a heavy burden to do so. Do you guys think there's more resistance to miracles in the church or outside of the church? And does the kind differ? So let's start with like outside of the church. And I realize when you say outside of the church, this could be skeptics, these could be new-agers, these could be Mormons. Like it's hard to just put this whole blanket around this. But what would be some of the common critique of those who aren't Christians or at least resistance to miracles?

What are you encountering? Bill, and you could throw demonic encounters in there since you wrote a book on this in the past and it deals with the supernatural. Yeah, oh gosh, I'm laughing. I was laughing because this is, you know, as Eric was talking, I was thinking about inside the church, which we'll talk about in a moment. But you know, in culture, I

think what's interesting is a lot of people, miracle stories are very feel good. You know, I think they're very emotional to sort of echo what Eric was saying, the people telling their stories, it was very difficult and emotional for a lot of them to recount what happened. But for the rest of the world watching these miracle stories, I think it's feel good. So I think a lot of people are very open to them. They they're open to trying to

understand unless you're an atheist or a very strong agnostic. And even some of them are intrigued by these claims, right? They want to try to find a naturalistic explanation for it. But I think there's a lot of openness. And there's so many different categories, as you mentioned outside of the church, I think a lot of number of the people that we spoke with the biggest challenges I was just talking to somebody yesterday who had one of the heaven visitation type stories which are controversial and not everybody loves them. But the amount of vitriol even from people who knew them, who trusted them, who knew their family within the church,

even the pastor speaking out against them, it makes it very difficult for them. And I think the big arguments among those in the church who would reject miracles, they would say, well, miracles have ceased, they're no longer happening. And anybody claiming that they're having these miracles unfold, they must be lying then, right? Or they must be mistaken at the very least.

And so when that sort of thing is going on inside the church, I mean, picture being a strong church going Christian, you've had this insane miracle that you've experienced. And now everybody you're telling in your church is saying that you're a liar or you're making it up. That creates a situation that makes other people very fearful to speak out about it. But when we talk about the culture,

when you look at the polling, you see anywhere from 60 to 80%. And again, it depends on the poll or how the question is being asked. And I'm actually hoping to do some new research on this coming up very soon here. I'm nationally saying, hey, we believe in the possibility of miracles.

So people are on board with that possibility. I think the hardest, you know, sort of pushback for people comes from within the church and their fellow Christians. And that that actually saddened me as I was sort of working through this. We should have discernment, but gosh, we've got to make sure we're not discouraging people from sharing what they truly believe is unfolded in their lives. Eric, what's your take? Do you agree to see things a little different, have a different experience in that? Haters are going to hate.

You know, there's this line in a song and he says, you could be drowning in the middle of the ocean and when I pull up, you'd be hating on my boat. And I just think that's so true. And I look at it as a sliding scale within the church and outside the church. In the church, you have cessationists and continuationists. The cessationists, what I find really interesting, I'm like, let me just try to wrap my brain around this. So you believe that a person can pray and give their life to Jesus, and they're filled with the Holy Spirit, and then they become a new creature, and their spirit is completely reborn right then and there. That is the most

miraculous thing you could ever describe. Like to me that is far more profound than someone who's blind and then later can see after prayer. So it really is confusing to me that they could believe in such a profound miracle as salvation and life transformation and rebirth, but not believe that the God that can do that is also still in the business of occasionally doing some pretty profound things like raising someone from the dead after 40 minutes. So I find a sliding scale. I call myself a Baptist costaltyrian because I am grounded in the Word of God and yet I

believe everything the Bible says. myself a Baptist costaltyrian because I am grounded in the Word of God and yet I believe everything the Bible says. I'm actually getting my doctorate at a Baptist university right now. And ultimately, there's a lot of people on campus that have lost their childlike wonder in these areas. And they have freed themselves, and I say this with gentleness, they have freed themselves from the responsibility of praying for people that need prayer.

They might say something like, God, would you be with them in their turmoil? Would you comfort them in this? Instead of saying, God, would you please be gracious and maybe heal them? So I see a lot of pushback and skepticism from that side of the church, where on the other side of the church,

I think there's tremendous spiritual abuse. Now outside the church it's somewhat similar. We see these very scientific minded individuals that claim that you are archaic if you believe in the supernatural, right? But what's interesting is if you actually look at the data, you are more likely to believe in miracles if you're a scientist in the hard sciences than not. If you're a doctor, if you're a medical doctor, the majority of medical doctors believe in the supernatural and have accounts to share. And so what's interesting is interviewing someone that was just an extra in our film. He was playing a doctor.

But interestingly, he's been an oncologist for 40 years. He just retired. He's an incredible man. And what's interesting is we were talking and he was describing some of the supernatural. He kind of giggled and he said, you know, in oncology, we call it spontaneous remission. And he said, you know, in some instance, like, I'm like, what do you mean spontaneous remission? Like, what is that? They will, the cancer just like disappears and they go into remission. I said, so in some of those instances, are they going through radiology, you know, or, you know, radiation treatment and chemotherapy or immunotherapy and yeah, in some instances, but there's a lot of instances where we've just

basically said, now we're done with all that. Like you're past that, like go spend time with your family. Let's start talking about hospice and this sort of thing. And he said, then the cancer disappears. So I believe that outside the church, there's a tremendous amount of skepticism on those that would claim to be from the side of science and medicine.

But I think they just need to read a little bit more and see that actually there's growing evidence. In fact, we've seen over the last few centuries as medicine and technology and science has dramatically increased and improved that we're actually not seeing a decline in the belief of supernatural from these practitioners, we're seeing an increase. I understand criticism from non-Christians. I'm critical of miracles and other religious claims like more naturally than I am in Christianity, even though I've got to try to step back and try to look at the evidence fairly. In my life, to be totally honest, like I find I don't... criticism from the outside doesn't bother me as much because I expect it and I understand it.

But it's from Christians that is the hardest sometimes, especially when I just feel misunderstood and not treated charitably. I can't imagine somebody having a near-death experience that changed their life. A demonic encounter that rocked them. The kind of miracle you're describing here and then being embarrassed within the church to talk about it. So rather than rejoicing, Christians are going to be skeptical.

And I think a lot of this is, we don't realize how much a certain naturalistic worldview has embedded itself in the modern church. More than we realize. Do we really realize, like do we believe what you said Eric, that we're a new creation? Do we believe like in Ephesians 6 when it talks about principalities and powers really existing? Do we really believe in the power of prayer? In my life, it's been a trajectory of increased confidence in this,

but maybe I can't remember, five or ten years ago when I really started studying near-death experiences was like, Wow, there's good evidence for this and I have not taken it seriously. And so your books, I'm sorry, well, I know your book Eric, I endorsed it and your book on on the demonic Billy, but the films you both have made are faith encouraging to me and just keep encouraging me to speak on the boldness of the supernatural. I still go to churches and when I talk about this, I'll say to churches, I'll say, okay,

I want all of you who've experienced a miracle or seen one with your eyes, not a great parking spot or an amazing shot in basketball. I mean something that can only be explained supernaturally. To raise your hands and look around. And it's anywhere between a third and sometimes two thirds of the audience worldwide. And people look around and they're like stunned at this.

And I'm like, this has actually been the norm in the church for 2,000 years. We need to get used to telling these stories and not care if the world thinks we're crazy. We signed up for a belief system of guy who died, was buried, and on the third day rose from the grave. That's a part of our system. So I know I'm preaching to the choir,

but I just want to really thank and encourage you guys. I think both films are excellent. They're intriguing. As a dad, they were just a good tool for me to be able to talk with my kid. And I'll talk about movies and culture, and then I'll talk about Christian films and just dialogue both of them.

Both of these are excellent films. So let me just ask final question for each of you. Remind us the name of the film, where people can see it, and how you would like them to utilize this film. Just maximize it, so to speak. Billy, why don't you start? Absolutely. It's called Investigating the Supernatural Miracles.

You can go to cbn.com slash supernatural, and you can stream it there. And my know, my hope is that everything you just said is so important. Sean, this is, you know, we do not want to trap people in pain. We do not want to leave people left in if you're dealing with the demonic that we're telling people, don't worry about it, there's nothing there or you're telling people, you know, you're just going to die, there's no hope, you know, you don't want to leave people. But that's the thing

that haunts me in this. And so my hope is that it rebuilds our faith. If you're a Christian who believes in miracles, that it builds that faith up that they're still happening. If you're a Christian who is skeptical about miracles unfolding, or if you're a secularist, or you're an atheist, that you would be challenged to at least say, Okay, there's something there, I don't. What is going on there? And take those steps to maybe better understand

what is truly happening. So I hope that it inspires and I hope it also challenges depending on where people are theologically. Eric, we have a premiere coming up at my church where we're showing the film and we're gonna talk about it. My pastor and I are gonna do a Q&A. So just for people listening, that's how much I believe it's powerful.

But our pastor has said twice, he goes, just so you know, there's adult themes in this. It's PG-13. So tell us, just remind us, obviously the name is Show Me Your Glory, where people can find it, how you would love churches to utilize this resource. Similar to Billy, and by the way, I watched Billy's film a couple of days ago

and absolutely loved it, and I highly recommend it for everybody. But our film is eight real stories of when the supernatural crashes into human suffering. And when we're dealing with suffering, there are some pretty risque topics. So it is a pretty intense movie we get that comment a lot from those who've screened it it's a very

intense movie. But ultimately this movie is for the Saints to be encouraged. It is also for the seeker who's looking for good evidence. And it's also for the skeptic. And so I really encourage people to see this film. I especially encourage churches because it could be a profound tool for that family member or that neighbor that might fall into a category where this film could really help them overcome a hurdle. We know that the leading cause of atheism is the existential problem of evil. If God is sovereign and perfect, why does he allow so much evil and suffering? And we really do our best to provide some good answers to help people overcome

that hurdle and trust God. So we do believe that there are going to be a lot of people who come to faith. There's a gospel presentation and an invitation and follow through at the end of the film. If you want to learn more about it, you can go to www.showmeyourglory.com. Show me your glory.com. And that's where our book is available. You'll be able to start buying tickets on April 11th. And that's a pre-sale for the tickets because we go live nationwide in theaters starting May 13th. Love it. Well, we'll have this up plenty before then. So hopefully people will go watch it and support it.

And I just encourage people, look, when you watch and support films like this, it helps just financially. It helps with traffic to just say, hey, there's a need for this. And so watch it even just for that reason alone, although both films have so much more value than that. Hey, I appreciate both of you guys more than anything else,

want to encourage you and thank you for doing great work. The rest of you before you go away, make sure you hit subscribe. We're gonna keep talking about the supernatural here. My next video on near-death experiences will be about when atheists have near-death experiences. That's coming up in a few months. Really interesting findings here.

So make sure you hit subscribe. And if you thought about studying apologetics, we would love to have you at Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. Information is below. We are on campus and distance. I teach a whole class on the problem of evil, resurrection, biblical sexuality, and more.

Would love to train you to be a resource in your church. And we also have a certificate program. If you're not ready for a master's but want to be trained in apologetics, big discount below. Appreciate both you guys, and I just pray the films do even better than you can imagine. Thanks for coming on and for great work. Thank you.

Thank you so much for having us.