The Sean McDowell Show - Walking with Jesus In Heartbreak and Grief (ft. Randy Alcorn)

Episode Date: October 1, 2024

Randy Alcorn is perhaps the most well-known Christian who writes and speaks on Heaven. Yet two years ago, his childhood bride, Nanci, died of cancer. How did his belief in heaven shape how he grieved? And what did he learn through this experience that can help Christians (and others) better grieve through loss, heartbreak, and pain? Sean and Randy both get personal in this interview. READ: Grieving with Hope: Walking with Jesus in Heartbreak, by Randy Alcorn (https://store.epm.org/grieving-with-hope/) WATCH: 16 Questions on Heaven, with Randy Alcorn (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxL6LCsJG10) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: @sean_mcdowell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org

How do we grieve and walk through heartbreak? What does God promise to those who are grieving? Is it a crutch to believe that a loved one who has passed away is in heaven? Our guest today, best-selling author Randy Alcorn, has not only researched this topic much of his life, but he has a personal story to share about the passing of his beloved wife, Nancy. Randy, thanks for being willing to come back on the show and share

such a vulnerable part of your life. Always great to be with you, Sean. Thanks for having me. Well, you're welcome. Let's jump right in. You have this new booklet that came out you sent to me. And right away, I thought, we've got to have a conversation with this. It's called Grieving with Hope. And it begins with a story of meeting your wife, Nancy. Now, you and I have common ground of meeting our wives at a very early stage in our life. So tell us about that, if you will. We were 14 years old, freshman in high school. She was a believer.

I was not a believer. And yes, later that became kind of an issue when I'm telling kids, you know, don't be unequally yoked even in a dating relationship. And then, well, it worked out well for you and Nancy. That's how you came to the Lord. But, you know, God can use anything. But the point is, we met 14 and she was immediately my best friend. I was her best friend.

But along the way, in the next year or so, I did come to a genuine faith in Christ. The real test was I was going to church when I knew she wasn't there. So I was like, whoa, why am I doing this? At first, I would not have done that. And then I was listening to the gospel came to faith in christ and went through bible college together got married after our senior year and spent 47 years of marriage together 47 years you know i had i had a similar experience with my kids when they're 12 13 15 years old i said look you're probably not going to marry this person and they look at me and like uh

who are you to speak my first memory my wife was in third grade we started going out when i was basically 14. so right such similar stories between the two of us now you're married 47 years writing speaking doing ministry having kids maybe we'll just fast forward to the part where this book really focuses, where I'm guessing since she had colon cancer for four years, it was about 43 years into your marriage. How did you first learn about this or suspect it? What happened? It was when she had a colonoscopy and here were the results and she literally while they were treating her examining her she's kind of in and out anyone who's had a colonoscopy knows this you can kind of hear some things and remember some things not others and when she came back when they brought her back

to where I was waiting she said I'm sure I heard the word cancer. And she says, so let's prepare ourselves. So we wait another 10 or 15 minutes and doctor comes in and you can tell he's working up to it. And then he gets to it. And he says, there's cancer there started what we thought was a stage one, but it was really stage two. And then in a year or so, it was stage three. And then another year after that, stage four. So we went through the process together, but our immediate reaction was one of, like most people's, total surprise, even though you know so many people who have cancer and you know so many people who have been through this. And why are we surprised? Well, you know, not because we thought we were going to live forever and not because we thought we were never going to get cancer.

But it never seems like it would happen now. And yet it does, which is a great thing about being prepared. And we were prepared in one sense. In another sense, you can't be prepared for something like that. But we were prepared in the sense that our relationship with God was strong, our relationship with each other was strong, and we had learned and grown in our marriage. And I was able to step away from my speaking engagements, from my writing projects, and become her primary caregiver throughout this process, which is one of the great privileges of my life. Had either of you had any kind of life-threatening illness or experience before this, or is this really the first time you thought, okay, this could maybe be it?

Yeah. I mean, probably the worst health thing we ever had was me becoming an insulin dependent diabetic, but that's been very manageable and no big deal and it was not a life or death situation but no nothing life or death with her sure extended family lots of it but not um not between the two of us so it became this new thing now we our daughter angela did have cancer several years ago and it seemed serious. And it seemed like her life could end as a result of it. But God wonderfully preserved her and she's cancer free today. Maybe tell us a little bit about that four years where you cared for her. What that was like? what was that mental shift i know you love to write i know you love to speak there's such a joy there was it like oh man i just i've got a shift and pivot can't do

things i love or i suspect you were thinking something else but just walk us through your mindset and just kind of what that day-to-day was like for you yeah there was very little disappointment in moving back from the speaking the speaking was the primary cut because i still uh wrote uh articles for various ministries and uh i did small writing projects but i cut out the big book projects pretty much just put them on pause and i've returned to a couple of them since Nancy went home to be with the Lord, which now has been two and a half years ago. But yeah, the sense of privilege. And I think, you know, Nancy would tell me she knew she loved that I loved her, but there were times where because of the priorities of ministry and

I've got to go do this and I've got to go do that and I've got to meet with somebody or whatever. I think at times she felt like, well, I don't know that I am the center other than Jesus himself of Randy's life. Well, within that first year, she was saying, i don't think i ever doubted your love for me well i sure don't doubt it now and i can't tell you sean what that meant to me as a husband because there are times um in ministry where uh you must do a certain thing uh and it is just either that or you need to no longer be a pastor, you need to no longer, whatever, that is going to pull you away and change your plans even with your wife. I try to minimize those, never canceled a vacation. And important things happen while we're gone on vacations, like somebody's memorial service that they wanted me to do. And I just can't do it if you can have

another time, but you know, no. And, but I think that that reality of the strength of our marriage, it just became stronger and stronger throughout her cancer. Obviously the entire four years was tough. And when you know, someone has stage one colon cancer, you realize this could be it was there a moment in that four years where you just both realized barring a radical miracle she's gonna pass away and what was that moment like yes i would say we got there um probably uh after we were three years into it uh headed toward year four, but maybe in the middle there where the test results are always up and down and you have hope and you send out your carriage bridge, carrying bridge. Some people are familiar with that, you know, notations. This is what's

going on. Please pray for us. And this is where we're at. And then I'd bring good news. And then some people's response to the good news. Oh, this test is great. God is answering prayer. And, and perhaps he was. And yet the next test was bad, you know, and so it was this, this this this continuous up and down uh process but yes we did get to that point where we thought okay lord now it's uh please heal her but it's also if you choose not to heal her please minimize the pain and the suffering and ultimately when it comes down to it take her quickly and it was only 10 days before she died that she looked at me and said randy can we change our prayer and i knew exactly what she meant but she said uh i just uh i want to pray that the Lord will take me soon. I want to quit the chemo, quit. She had

three rounds of chemo, three rounds of radiation and three surgeries. And one third of her lungs had been removed because it moved from her colon. When it became stage four, it had moved from her colon. She was cancer free in her colon, but it had moved to her lungs. And of all things, it happened exactly during COVID. So while in retrospect, many people see COVID as very much an overreaction, in Nancy's case, the doctors are literally saying, if she gets COVID, she will die. She has only two-thirds of her lungs left. She's really depleted.

She doesn't have much resistance to other kinds of disease. And so you've got to be careful. Well, that meant was everybody knows what COVID was like, even for people who were healthy. But for somebody with Alzheimer's disease, it was a beautiful day in my life. She went to God's Word. She read great books. She would read Charles Spurgeon books and listen to Spurgeon messages that obviously not, you know, his live voice, but somebody else who had recorded them. And she loved that. And she would listen to John Piper and Paul Tripp and read their books, New Morning Mercies by Paul Tripp. She loved that book.

And Gentle and Lowly by Dane Ortlund, all of these great, great books. And she came closer to God than she had ever been. And she would look at me every once in a while, and she would write this in her journal. Like, Lord, I felt like i was really close to you before but like this is this is way more than what i've ever experienced and i saw it in her life and so it was such a privilege for me to sit at my wife's feet and to see a profound work of the holy spirit in her life and whenever somebody would visit her, they were just drawn to her because her heart was so with Jesus. And the closer you get to death, at least this was certainly true with Nancy, and I've seen it with some others as well. Honestly, the secondary

things are just so unimportant. Now, her family was still extremely important, her grandkids, she mourned the loss of being able to go to the basketball games. That was one of the things that was so difficult during COVID because both great, excellent basketball players couldn't go to the tennis matches even more even though they were outside. But yeah, so she felt the loss. But the gain in terms of her spiritual life was just immeasurable was there a final conversation you and maybe the family had with her and are you willing to share oh absolutely it was beautiful Shawn I'm telling you I'll never forget this. It was on a Saturday and she said, Randy, I'd like you to call the family together. And of course I knew what that meant. She said, I really want one last time

in this world. And it was always an emphasis on in this world, because we know there's another world and we're going to see each other and see our family there too, because all of them have come to faith in Christ and all the grandkids as well as our kids and the sons-in-law. It's beautiful to have a family like we have, and we're so grateful for it. But she said, I just want you to call up Karina and her family from California, three grandsons down there. Angela and her family live very close to us. Both of our sons-in-law are named Dan, which is convenient, except when you're asking Dan, would you lead in prayer around a meal or something? But anyway, so here we were surrounding her deathbed and she is looking at everybody and I I started by reading and she and I had agreed on this I was reading things from her journal powerful things incredibly

powerful meditations and quotes from Scripture and quotes from Puritans, and all these people that had had this great impact on her life. But she looks at the grandsons, and she calls them by name, and says, I don't want any of you to ever be bitter at God for taking me home. Do you understand me? He loves me more than you do. He loves me more than I love myself. He loves me beyond measure, and it's His choice. No, it's not mine, but don't blame Him because He knows what's best, and He will do what is best in your life, even though you will face very hard times. I'll never forget the two oldest boys who were 17 at the time and are 19 now,

both had a similar reaction. One of them started by saying, Grahams, I've never faced anything like what you're facing. And I've struggled with certain things in my life. And I can see that you're the example to me of what I need to do to trust Jesus in everything in my life. Because if you're trusting him in death, what's greater than that? You know, it was just, and it was so remarkable and so beautiful and unforgettable. Would you agree with this, Randy? I've heard people saying, I've thought about it myself, that really, if not the greatest, but the final lesson we really can pass on to others is how we die. Oh, I so totally agree.

And I agreed with it before Nancy got sick and before she died but I'm telling you since then I have said to people you know what you can call your family together without having a terminal illness and tell them what's on your heart and speak to each one of them that's a wonderful thing to do because you may die of a car accident. You may be just here today, gone tomorrow, and that's it. You may never have that opportunity that Nancy and I had in her life. So, you know, when the family's on vacation together or whatever, hey, I just want to take an hour maybe or whatever, just share with you my love and also my heart and my prayers for you my kids my grandchildren you know in some cases it could be my

parents they're still alive whatever and just share with them the grace of God in your life and the reassurance that if they know Jesus, you are going to see them again and it will be an eternity of rejoicing, the new heavens, the new earth. And that's one of the great things, Shawn, Nancy and I, largely because of all the books I've written on heaven, there's eight or nine books that have heaven-related components to them including several of my novels but having done all that research over a period of years my big book on heaven that you and i have discussed before on this program that that book has been out exactly 20 years well in two weeks it will be exactly 20 years early october uh is when it

came out 20 years back but all the research that i did four or five years of research leading up that book and the research for the other books well of course you talk with your wife or you talk with your spouse about what you're writing what you you're researching. And so Nancy and I would talk all the time. And we would talk in particular about the part that we so often don't talk about and think about, which we should, because Peter says we're looking forward to new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells. But we so often just think of heavens where grandma goes when she dies, and that's wonderful, and she's in the presence of Jesus. But that's all pre-resurrection. That's not the eternal heaven. The eternal heaven will be God

bringing heaven down to earth, where a renewed earth, a born-again earth where the born-again people of God, the resurrected earth on which the resurrected people of God live forever with the resurrected Jesus, their Lord and Savior, and enjoy redeemed culture, redeemed world with all of the wonderful things that we love about this world and just wish we didn't have to put up with all the sin, including in us, and all of the suffering in our lives and the lives of others. But this whole idea that God wants to yank us out of this earthly life so that we can live in a disembodied state forever is utterly contrary to the gospel, utterly contrary to 1 Corinthians 15, where Paul says, you know, if we've hoped in Christ only for this life, there is no resurrection of the dead. We are of all people most to be pitied. And so Nancy and I would talk about what it would be like to go to concerts and watch sports and participate in sports and to do all the things that people made in God's image do. So no carry over from this life, anything that involves sin,

but carry over of everything else that doesn't involve sin, which when you think about it, there's redeemed versions of virtually everything in this world so we have that to look forward to forever not living in uh an angelic realm that angels are happy with but we're not it's going to be totally different i know you and my father have been friends for i don't know three four decades plus and i uh it's the last of years you and I have really gotten to interact and talk and meet in person last year. You brought me to church, which was amazing. Didn't have a chance to really meet and interact with Nancy. And just to hear you talk about her, just that was my loss to not get a chance to meet her, but maybe talk about, if you will will like what were those moments maybe hours or even days

after she passed what was that like or that transition a huge amount of disorientation Shawn because Nancy you know we were married for 47 years but we were best friends for seven years before that so we had been i mean starting freshman year of high school so you know for those 54 years and and and i was 68 when she died um for those the vast majority of my life she was a central part of my life um i think it's safe to say a day did not go by when we didn't talk. Even if I was traveling and speaking somewhere, I'd call her and we'd text each other. And even though I have an office that's just 10 feet behind our house, so I just walked

back onto the back porch or whatever, but the day we would often when I was in the office we text each other like funny little dog pictures and animal things and she loved animals love dogs and and I could say loves dogs because I'm sure that love for dogs came from the Lord and it will carry over to the new earth where I personally anticipate dogs galore we know from Isaiah 11 for sure there will be animals on the new earth it's so funny to hear people say and I heard this again just the other day a well-known Bible teacher saying well there's no indication there will be animals on heaven what are you talking about what do you think Isaiah 11 is

talking about well some people think well that's just the millennium where we're going to be around animals on you know uh just for 1 000 years no the whole context is there will be no harm done no sin in the world on all my holy mountain it's clearly talking about the new earth, even if the millennium might foreshadow it, whatever. But the point is we would just interact during the day about the life to come and the beauties of this world, virtually all of which we believe we carry over to the world to come. And so her absence was so profound. I mean, and I'll tell you one thing, Sean, that I missed more than anything else was her laughter. She had a very contagious laugh, a very happiness-saturated laugh. It wasn't just kind of that little laugh that some people kind of give out

because they're trying to. It was just spontaneous from her heart and from her soul. And it was also a very loud laugh. I mean, it was a loud laugh to the point that if I could be at something like in the church in the foyer and she could be, you know, 30 feet away. And all of a sudden she's laughing with the people she's with. And then now she's making them laugh partly because of her laugh. And we're all hearing them and say, oh, Nancy's being Nancy again over there. And I go, yeah, isn't it great? So the silence in the house was just stunning and hard to connect with. One of the great blessings was having a little dog that we picked out together and her beloved golden retriever and mine,

Maggie had died about a year before Nancy died, but we soon got a new puppy and she hadn't been able to sit on the grass for a couple of years, but because Gracie, our new little double doodle was out on the grass, she got down with her and, and I, I took videos of it and I go back and I look at those. But she hadn't been able to do that. But that just took her out of it. And when the grandkids would visit, she'd do more than she could normally do. But just the absence of a profound sense of Nancy is not here. I know she's in a better place. But the problem is I'm not. I'm still here and missing her profoundly. Now, the interesting

thing is people will say, you must be lonely. And I go, well, in general, I am not lonely. I have a small group of guys. In fact, we were on a retreat this last weekend, went off to the beach together. We have a great time. I have close friends that I have dinner with every Thursday night and still do. I'm surrounded by coworkers, people that I know and love. I'm not lonely in general. I'm very specifically lonely for Nancy. It's not general loneliness. And this is what I learned that there is such a thing as I'm not lonely except for the, for one person, but that person other than Jesus is the most important person in my life ever. Thanks for sharing that and being so, so open about that. Let me step back and ask this. What what what does the Bible promise for those

who grieve and are suffering hmm well first Thessalonians 4 is this great passage about the return of Christ and how we will all be together so sometimes people say you know it's really not spiritual to talk about wanting to be with your loved ones in heaven we should should only want Jesus. Jesus is the only one we should want. So don't talk about, wouldn't it be great to be with animals on the new earth? And wouldn't it be great to have meals and have redeemed taste buds? And we've never eaten a food except food that was under the curse, never had taste buds except we're under the curse. So't it be great but oh no that's that's not godly that's not spiritual all we should want is jesus but what we miss sometimes is that he is who he is he's the primary and as the primary he

gives us secondary joys and secondary happinesses. And those secondary ones can be beautiful, and they don't have to be idols in our lives. In fact, they're supposed to bring us closer to Him. And so this is the experience that I have had since Nancy's been gone, even, of the friendship of Jesus, where I thank God every day for my friendship. John 15, I no longer call you servants, I call you friends. Now, it's a little bit ironic because he does call us servants other places, but that's the kind of Hebraism where you say a thing, no longer this, but that thing may still be in force.

But now I call you friends. Like I've never called you friends before because why? Because the father has revealed to me certain things and I have revealed them to you. I trust you more than a man usually trusts his servant. I have been transparent with you and I have sensed the friendship of Jesus every day and has been probably the single greatest comfort in my life is not just other people though other people are great but yeah the presence of Jesus has been amazing. I like the way you frame it in your book, that God doesn't promise he'll take us out of suffering, but be with us through suffering and redeem it for good someday. Now, you hinted at this earlier.

You said it's not a crutch to believe that she's in a better place. I hear this all the time from people, skeptics, nonbelievers, and it's understandable. I see where people are coming from when they say this. Sure. Why don't you think it's a crutch to say that she's in a better place just to make yourself feel better about her passing? Yeah. And, and honestly, my motive isn't to make myself feel better. I mean, I just truly believe it. And I think because I grew up in a non-Christianristian home which i don't recommend okay so i'm not i'm not telling people who grew up in a christian home you had it you know uh i i

could wish that i would have grown up a christian home however one of the advantages sometimes is that i never have to wonder if i just believe this because i grew up with it, because I did not grow up with it. I came to believe it, and I was, for a 15-year-old, I was, I mean, I read books of great thinkers. I read a lot of science. I read a lot. I mean, I read many things that could have been a challenge to my faith and perhaps early on were until I started, you know, finding answers. But the thing is, when it comes to the crutch thing, you can approach it one of two ways. No, it's not a crutch, but he says, I think it's just the truth. And I believe it. Does it bring me comfort? Sure. But if it's true, I wouldn't regard as crushed. But the other way to look at it is if your leg is broken,

I have a ministry with a number of players, professional athletes, including NFL players, and a number of them get a torn ACL, MCL, this, that, or the other thing, broken bone, whatever it is. And they're on crutches. I mean, they're athletes in great physical condition, and they're on crutches. I mean, would I say to them, oh, that's a crutch? Yeah, that's literally a crutch, which is what they need. And in fact, the crutch can help them heal. It can help them get places they need to get, yes. But also, they start putting in a bit more weight on it and a bit more weight.

And they'll lift the crutch up a little bit. And it just helps them on their way. So, hey, if it's a crutch, it's a crutch. And my broken heart, let's think of it as the equivalent of a broken leg. And would you feel bad about being on crutches if you had a broken leg? Randy, what are some maybe well-intentioned but unhelpful things people have said along the way from the beginning even until now with you just still grieving your wife well in the beginning and and i will even go back to when nancy was still alive

probably the people who sent emails and texts very well-meaning and said, you know, Nancy could be cured if she would just start eating this and just consume this vitamin every day. It has cured innumerable people of so-called terminal cancer and whatever. Now I'm willing to try almost anything. And I have many times tried things. I said to Nancy, there's no downside to this. Go ahead and try it. I mean, you know, none of them worked. But the people who are not, hey, this is a chance of working. So I thought I'd let you know about, hey, fine.

But when it's an assurance that this works, my uncle was dying. And he was on his last breath. And everybody said he was. And he started taking this works. My uncle was dying and he was on his last breath and everybody said he was, and he started taking this supplement and within two weeks he was 100%. I mean, is this, you keep hearing these stories from people who believe that their particular product that they take or that they sell, um, and, and graciously sometimes they'd offer to give it, you know? And then usually I'd say yes, cause what's to be lost from it, you know? But I would think that got to a point where it was like, if you only knew what we know, your wife wouldn't have cancer anymore.

And then the people who would say, so now have you really tried this? And then the people, and this is on a spiritual basis, it's really unhelpful. Are you praying in faith, believing that God will heal Nancy? Well, I'm praying in faith, but God is the object of my faith. Sometimes people's faith is in their faith. If I just have enough faith, then, hey, God's going to answer my prayer, because you asked this in prayer, believing you'll receive it. Yes, and I get it. And if those were the only passages of Scripture we had, I guess we'd have to go, well, I guess it did come down to me losing my faith but that they're not

you've got all the passages of scripture that have to do with you know paul having the thorn in the flesh and praying three times and god said no and did not answer his prayer you've got jesus in gethsemane lord deliver me from this unless it be your will or whatever. So the prayer, unless it be your will, that some people think is just like a concession, and it's bad to even say that, because you're not showing up. Yeah, people who would come on like that. Now, after Nancy died, I had this experience for a while in church, and it made church very, very difficult for me. And it also made me sensitive to all the people that perhaps I had been insensitive to before, is all the people who would come up and say, I'm so sorry about Nancy, and then immediately talk about loved ones

that they know who died of cancer. And often it was like my grandmother who died and not minimizing grandmothers, grandmothers are wonderful. But it was 20 years ago, my grandmother died, and they're telling me detailed stories, or the people who would come up and tell you Yeah, colon cancer, not even understanding that at the end, it was really lung cancer, colon cancer that moved to the lungs but anyway saying oh it was hideous and she suffered terribly so i mean i just i empathize with all the suffering you've been through and i don't really want to talk about my wife's suffering at that point and i don't want

to talk about your wife's suffering i thank you for saying i'm so sorry about Nancy. And I don't want to sit, stand here for 20 minutes to talk about Nancy. But probably if you're going to bring up Nancy, it would be nice to not move on within 15 seconds to tell me all your stories, war stories about cancer in your life and how bad it's been and the people you've loved who have died of cancer. But I had to tell myself, and I say this in the booklet, that people don't mean to be unkind. They're trying to relate to you. That's why they're sharing that story. And that's a good thing to try to relate to somebody. But I think it's more like Job's comforters. They were at their best when they said nothing. They were actually with Job for a week. It says they were silent and they

were with him in sackcloth and ashes for a week. At that point, Job regarded them as very good friends. And then the problem started when they started opening their mouths. And out of their mouths came all of these theological insights and words of wisdom. And really it's your fault, Job, that all these bad things have happened to you. Maybe take me back to the first, I don't know, two, three, four months, within six months, whatever. I'm curious what you would, what would have been helpful for people to say to you differently than what you just said? Because I think, I think a lot of people just start speaking. They're, they're uncomfortable.

They don't know what to say. They're looking for a connection. They just feel like at a loss, I can't fix it. And so that's probably 90% of why people start telling a story and distracting and moving on. And I appreciate how gracious you are trying to say, you know what? I've probably done this with other people in the past. Right. And I know they're trying to do what's right. Like, that's such a gracious way to look at it. But imagine someone's at church two, three months after this and things aren't settling in, but in a sense, you're maybe trying to move on and adapt to where life is at now. What would you have wanted somebody to say to you? I think someone to say something like, I have been through a lot of grief in my life,

or I have not been through much grief in my life. Either way, but to then be able to say, I just know it's hard and I'm praying for you and asking that God would take you through the grief process in your own way, in the way that's best for you and the length of time that's best for you. And that's what I'm praying, that it would be suited to you, God's plan for grief in your life. So they're acknowledging the grief, that it's real. One thing that nobody appreciates who is grieving is when somebody says, like I had a friend who's a very close friend whose son died,

and about two months after his son had died, not that long after his memorial service actually somebody said um so are you over your grief yet about your son and his son's like 31 years old and dies uh and you just go why would you say are you over your just say something like um where are you in your grief process how is it going but don't ever express an expectation that somebody should just be over and done with their grief almost like i don't want to be around you anymore i appreciated the friends who though they are married and continue to be married would freely invite me over to join the group. I was not uncomfortable with it. Yes, there are times where you do feel like the third wheel, especially if

it's just one couple, but it depends on the couple. When it's couples that were very close to us, like two of my closest friends, Steve and Paul were pastors with me. And then for years with each other, when I was no longer a pastor at our church, but part of the same church. And we had dinner together on Thursday nights in one case with the Keels family, one of our pastors and pastor's wife for 30 years, dinner on Thursday nights. And for 20 of those years, Paul and Michelle had been with us. But Paul's wife, Michelle, unexpectedly, shockingly, died two months before Nancy did. She's nine years younger than we are.

I mean, it was just shock. And then Nancy died, and we only had one time where nancy was able to come to the dinner so it was it had gone from the six of us to the five of us and then she was not able to come and then it was two months after michelle had died and now nancy has died and our group of six went down to a group of four, but we have continued that gathering and we talk all the time about Nancy and Michelle. So when people, that's one thing, I love it when people talk about Nancy. I don't love it when it's somebody who knew Nancy well, and they don't say a word about Nancy. I love it when they say, I miss Nancy. I miss Nancy. It must be tough for you during football season because Nancy loved football so much.

And we watched games with her and she was so, she'd whistle and she'd, you know, all these things because she was really into the sport. And you must really miss that. I did a blog about that, about the start of NFL season as the first year. So the fall of 2022, after she had died in the spring, I was, you know, you know, Thanksgiving's coming, you know, birthdays are coming, anniversaries are coming, Christmas is coming. You know, you know, the holidays like that. I didn't realize on the first day of the NFL season, I would be weeping because I couldn't hear Nancy getting animated and calling from the other room.

Randy, you got to come see the replay. I mean, this is so great. If I would go out of the room to get a sandwich or something like that, which I did on those days, Nancy would go, I am not going to be the wife that makes the nice meal for you on game days. Other days. Yes. Not on game day. So could you get us some burgers and bring them home? Which is great. I love that about her, but yeah. So unprepared for that, but yeah. So those early days, uh, the first, you know, people talk about this, your first Christmas, your first birthday, your first

anniversary, and even the second one. Now some of them, I've now hit the third one around. And it's been like, it hasn't affected me on the depths that especially the first one did. This is my first anniversary without nancy and the in 54 years wow you know or or anniversary of the day we met which we also celebrated now but anniversary of our wedding day this is the first one in 47 years that i haven't celebrated with her that's so helpful i I can't thank you enough for sharing that because we all have that awkward sense of what do we say or not say, but especially like you want to hear people say, I remember this about Nancy. I miss Nancy. Let's not pretend she didn't exist and is gone forever. She was a part

of my life and always will be. And acknowledging that is meaningful to you I love that and our dear friends who lost their son at age 31 they say this quite frequently I don't like it when people never talk about Jason they think it's gonna hurt to hear his name it actually sometimes hurts to not hear his name i mean from people who knew him well i mean that that's what i'm talking about uh even other members of the family sometimes oh you know our brother jason died and and we mourn um don't want to bring him up with mom and dad oh no am i and this this now they all bring them up together because they've all learned. We all want to hear about Jason. Now, we want to hear the stuff that we laugh about. We want to, I got several of the articles of clothing that Jason had his, he had way better clothes than I ever had. And so they gave me several things I go okay the best clothes I have

belonged to Jason you know and I they'll see me wearing them and is that Jason sweatshirt that his t-shirt is that is you know and so being reminded so Nancy's side of the closet still has some of the things that her scent is still in her clothes. The particular shampoo and body lotion and those kinds of things, they just tend to kind of reside in clothes. And she has some favorite cowboy boots that close friends of ours who live in Texas gave to her. And there's just certain things on her side of the closet. And it's not like a living memorial where every day I come and weep and look at it. It's just every once in a while I'm looking at her side of the closet that did something of mine

end up falling over there. And then I just smile and the familiar scent and i actually did get the particular lotion and bought it i just have an open bottle of it in there so that just keeps that scent going and to me that's that's been a very healthy part of my grieving now there are people who 10 years later are still hanging on to each and everything i'm slowly getting rid of certain things but there are certain things i will always retain yeah that may that make total sense that sounds reasonable to me you wrote this in your book about those about people who don't believe in jesus you said i encourage you to ask yourself not for my sake but for yours if the good news of salvation in jesus is not true how can you face death and find a true basis for hope and joy if jesus is not the answer what other answer is there unpack that for

us if you will what the heart of your message would be for those who don't believe in jesus yeah i would say just take a long hard look and if you truly believe there is no hope um that there is no possibility of seeing a loved one again that all life ends at death is there not a part in you that believes that that person was more than the sum product of their DNA and their physical bodies. Is there not such a thing that you sent sometime that was transcendent, a spirit or a soul, where even in your relationship with them, you felt like in a way you had risen, there was something transcendent about this person. They're not the same as a rock. I'm not even talking about whether the same as an animal, because animals actually have this living essence to a degree. But I'm just,

is there no difference between your loved one and a rock? Just a piece of stone? Is that all they were? And part of you should say, no, that's not all they were. And that should prompt you to go further in examining the claims of Christ. And I would say, look at all the alternatives. Like you, Sean, I have studied a lot of worldviews, and in my mind, without a doubt, the worldview with the greatest explanatory power is the christian worldview the biblical worldview now some christians have a worldview that is not biblical i mean they love jesus and that's real sure but again the disembodied state and all of that and they don't get the resurrection and the promise of the new earth and all of that a global eden

that's going to go on forever they don't't, they don't wrap, you know, wrap their minds around it. But for the unbelievers, just say, don't give up examining. Don't be content with hopelessness. And, and don't also be content with a false hope. Like, well, they live on in my heart and soul. Yeah, but you're going to die too. And so is that the end of them? When is the end of you? I just don't think it's actually, I don't think the evidence supports that. And the other thing I would say,

and this relates to some unbelievers who profess a Christian faith, but are not truly Christians. And that is, when we think of people losing their faith, we think of that as a tragedy, and sometimes indeed it is. If they had the right faith and they lost it, that's a tragedy. If they have the wrong faith, if their faith is in the wrong object, they need to lose that faith and replace it with a true biblically based Christ centered faith. And I think that's true of many people in prosperity theology.

They need to lose their faith. I mean, I've seen people in prosperity theology. I've talked with them who have bought into all of this and they're dying of cancer and they believe that God has let them down. God has deserted them. You can go online and you can find testimonies of people who say, God let me down. I don't believe in him. He promised to heal me and he didn't heal me. Actually, he didn't promise. Well, promise ultimate healing, if you know him, in the resurrection and even the release from sin and suffering at death and all of that. But they didn't promise you that. Some preacher, some prosperity preacher promised you that. They didn't keep their promise, but don't blame Jesus for that.

So reject the false faith. Embrace a true faith. Earlier when I asked you what God prompts to those who grieve is that God will be with us. He invites us into his family, calls us his children. Now with my kids, if my kids are suffering, I'm going to do everything I can to minimize their suffering. So if Nancy was, or anybody who's suffering, was God's child and he loves us in the same way, why would God allow

Christians to suffer as much? Or if I'm reading 1 Peter chapter 3 correctly, where it seems to imply it's God's will that we suffer sometimes, why would he allow his loved ones, his children, to experience such pain and such grief? I think the single biggest answer to that, Sean, is Christlikeness because of all the passages that relate to suffering that talk about conformity to the image of Christ and growing in the grace of God. You know, Scripture talks about these light and momentary afflictions that are producing in us an eternal weight of glory. God is using them to change and transform us. And by the way, light and momentary troubles, and you could say, oh, that's the apostle Paul who said that.

Well, he doesn't know the suffering I'm going through. Yeah. Just look at scripture. Is it 2 Corinthians, what, 10 or 12, wherever it is in there, where he gives that list of all the sufferings and verge of death and stoned multiple times and beaten within an inch of his life, the 40 lashes minus one, all of these horrific sufferings at sea, on land, and persecutions and all of this.

And he says these light and momentary afflictions are producing in us an eternal weight of God. God is bringing things out of our suffering in this life, which will last forever. And I think sometimes we, I know in Nancy's life, a beautiful example of that, that second Corinthians four passage, I saw it lived out in my wife's life. And forever she will have greater reward, and I think you could argue a greater closeness to Jesus than she otherwise would have had. Now, some people think that's heresy because they go, wait a minute, there can't be degrees of closeness to Jesus in heaven. Well, and then other people say there can't be degrees of reward. Well, there are clearly degrees of reward. I mean, that's emphatically taught. And I also think, and Spurgeon used this example, and before him, Jonathan Edwards had used the example. So I think

he probably got it from Edwards of a bucket that is full of something. And that bucket can be full of something. And yeah, it's a small bucket be full of something and yeah it's a small bucket compared to the ocean but it's a big big bucket and we all are going to go to heaven and throughout eternity our love for Jesus and our closest to Jesus will be this big big bucket but could some have a bigger bucket than others and could that bucket be filled with what God did with them in this life to prepare them for eternal life hmm I had a good good friend I'm sure you know or was familiar with Nabeel Qureshi and former Muslim came to faith mid-30s, just powerful story, and died tragically of cancer

and really believed God was going to heal him. And a friend of mine who I work with said to Nabil, he said, your faith through this, whether God heals you or not, testifies to the strength of what God did in his life and you are witness, even if he doesn't heal you. I thought that might be one reason why on top of what he said, which I think is so true about Christ's likeness, is that he lets Christians suffer because talk is cheap. But when you live something and you proclaim it and you're suffering, that makes people pause and go, wow, where does such conviction in depth come from? Like with your wife at the end had every reason to question her man in God and her faith just came out and shined. Yeah. And those two just integrate so

well with each other because what people are seeing in people of faith as they endure suffering is a Christ-centered perspective or Christ-likeness in their lives. And that's what they're drawn to. And the number, a dear friend of ours made this big kind of cedar chest that is just for notes that people sent about Nancy. That thing is full. I mean, it's crammed full. And it was three quarters full shortly after she died. But letters have continued to come in and people have continued to say things

about Nancy's impact on their life. And we have blogs where we still extract things from Nancy's journal, things she said, and somebody will say, that changed my life, and I didn't know until today that Nancy ever said those words. But there they are. Or they'll go back and read something from a blog a while back or they'll see a podcast from a while back an interview whatever it is and they'll say wow it's it's very much uh hebrews 11 it says of abel though he is dead he yet speaks and though nancy is dead by

view of this world alive already in the life to come, but she is still speaking in this world to people in this world. And everyone who knew her, if, if it was only her family, um, Nancy wasn't one to, um,

she did a few television or radio things with a book that we worked against. She said, Randy, I just don't think this is calling my life. I said, fine you don't ever have to do another one now she's she did end up doing some more and she did uh occasionally do a q a with the women's group at church but she wrote women's bible studies the new women's bible study just came out on ephesians at our church and somebody sent me this little photo because they'd done one years ago and nancy was one of the primary writers and editors of it and the first name you see when you open it up is nancy alcorn which just meant a lot to me uh that though she is dead she yet speaks

to our church that's a that's a great example i love that just a couple more questions for you what are maybe some healthy habits and not so healthy habits for people who are grieving well a healthy habit is continuing in fellowship with people going to church, there are many believers now who don't go to church. And for many, it started during COVID and they've never really returned to church. Or if they do, they used to come regularly to church and now it's once every six weeks or special occasions or something like that. I would say the habit of going to church, certainly the habit of being part of a small group. The small group in some ways is almost as important as the big gathering at church. You know, occasionally when I'm away somewhere, I will watch our church service online.

And I will get tons out of the message especially the worship you do feel that loss of not being there when I'm in the presence of worship it has more of a contagious element to it to me and and certainly it's better to be there to hear the teaching but there's no substitute for that small group of believers and opening God's word together and speaking into each other's life so that would be example of a healthy habit but if you're not doing it then it's an unhealthy one and i would say this um i struggled because of some of the very very reasons. I said my church attendance became less regular after Nancy died because of so many of the conversations that were so difficult. But I go to church to a service that's

the least popular service. And so I don't see as many people uh for me um i'm much better now uh but people would just come up to me like i was the bible answer man or whatever like i have the answer to all of your questions uh you know and so that and they they look at me that way and and that you know it's it's it's it's a compliment when people think you have maybe a good answer or something. But I would say the habit of that largely due to my dog of being outside each and every day without exception, so I bike, I run, I play tennis. But there are times of the year in Oregon where you're not out doing those things, but I have the indoor bike and I do that. So, but my dog gets me outside even if the weather's bad.

She will not tolerate me not taking her for a walk, even if it's an adjusted shorter walk and I'm freezing and, you know, and all of that. And I love that. And by the way, I think that's one of the things where an animal can help some people a pet can help some people not only to give attention to and have somebody to care for that was a blessing the regular routine of needing to care for feed the dog for many years it was Nancy who did that because she loved it she just was the person in charge of the dog you know well then obviously as she got sicker and sicker, that became me. And then after she dies, of course, it's me. But the habit of caring for somebody and looking out for other

people, I could have, I am somewhat of an introvert. Nancy was an introvert. And I could stay inside writing four or five days in a row and never get outside in bad weather, I mean, if my dog was not getting me out there. So that would be an important habit. Habits of nutrition. I have to watch my sleep, make sure I'm getting enough sleep and that kind of thing. You know, it's interesting. Luke 2.52, Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, favor with God and favor with man. That's how he grew.

You're kind of saying favor and stature physically take care of yourself. Jesus grew in favor with man relationally take care of himself keep reading and studying the scriptures intellectually and spiritually because we're whole beings and you got to take care of your whole self so it's really not rocket science it's just making the decisions to be healthy uh i i love your book i think it was it was so timely I I shared this with you and I I guess I somewhat hesitated to mention it but it's out public now that my father has Alzheimer's and he's he's okay he's 85 he stepped back from ministry and so there's a kind of grieving with that and so I don't it's not super advanced as far as I can tell I'm not a medical doctor but when you sent me this book I was like this is perfect because

it's a kind of grieving process not not the same I'm not remotely saying it's the same of what what you went through but a kind of grieving process like how do I think about this how do I process this how do I make sense of this what are good habits and so i just want to encourage people to pick it up and the title again is just grieving with hope and i think it's like 30 some pages but where where can people pick this up should be able to get it at certainly any christian bookstore you can get it online from amazon you can get it from our ministry it's epm.org eternal perspective ministries You can get it from our ministry. It's epm.org, Eternal Perspective Ministries. You can get discounts for large quantities. If you want to pass them out, somebody was just telling me today, we're passing this out at our memorial service. It just came out last week,

and a memorial service in our family, and we think it'll be helpful. It's not an apologetics book, of course. It's to really help people grieve. But there's apologetic ideas within it, because we all have either faced death or we will. And there's a certain hope you talk about that belief in Jesus gives us. And it really is amazing. I would expect no different from knowing you. You've studied heaven your whole life, that this is painful and this hurts and no one can take away that pain, but you really believe it and see it worked into your life, which shows studying theology and studying heaven

and really taking the time to build biblical convictions does affect our relationship. So I'm really grateful you would be vulnerable about this book and write about it. It's encouraging to me personally, and I hope everybody watching this will pick up a copy. It's the kind you can give to somebody that's not going to feel preachy. It just opens with Randy saying, here's my story. Here's how I process this.

Might encourage you. It's not a long book. There's a place for heaven. Obviously, that book sold a million copies. It's thick. But there's also a place for just a small, timely read, probably in an hour, maybe 30 minutes. That'll just give someone some practices, how to grieve well and how to focus on, on scripture. So again, the title of the book is grieving with hope. Make sure you pick it up before you click

away, folks, please hit subscribe. We've got a lot more shows like this coming up, whether it's on evil and suffering and grief, intelligent design, evidence for the Bible, you name it. You're not going to want to miss it here. In fact, we'll have you back certainly again, Randy. There's no question about that. Your favorite guest here, but thanks for encouraging me. Thanks for just being such an example. Somebody who believes this stuff puts it into practice as difficult as it can be. And Sean, if I could say one last thing. Scripture says that we grieve, but we do not grieve as those who have no hope. And the hope that we see in Scripture is not this wishful thinking kind of hope, but it is a biblically grounded, purchased by the blood of

Christ, certain hope for the world to come. And to me, and that comes back to worldview and so much of the things that you're about with apologetics. If we think rightly about the life to come, the work, the redemptive work of Christ on our behalf, then the comfort there is in that of eternal reunion is just beyond description. Thanks for sharing that. And thanks for sharing the gift of your life with Nancy with us. You bet. Thanks, brother.

Thank you.