The Sean McDowell Show - What Frank Turek Has Learned in 3 Decades of Ministry

Episode Date: October 2, 2026

In this conversation with Sean and Scottie McDowell, Frank walks through his own path to faith, including the Sunday morning in 1985 when a pastor answered his exact objection minutes after he slipped into the back of a church. He explains why he finds the evidence for God more compelling than the evidence for the resurrection, why embarrassing testimony persuades him more than manuscript counts, and how he'd answer someone who calls Christians hypocrites.   CHECK OUT: Logos Bible 60 Day Free Trial (https://logos.com/mcdowell) CHECK OUT: Consider Supporting the Ministry! (https://seanmcdowell.org/give) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [smdcertdisc] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org   Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

Life Audio You could sit across the table right now from Tyler Robinson. What is the one thing you would tell? I'm telling the gospel because I want him to be saved just like everybody else, that you can be forgiven for all the evil you've done, not just shooting Charlie Kirk, but I hope he repents. I hope he's saved. And then I hope he's executed because that's what he deserves.

And ironically, the death penalty in Utah is firing squad. Wow. I was doing nothing with my life when Charlie. Charlie Kirk was murdered. I said, I need to get in the game. I need to do something. Whatever my gift is, I got to find it and use it for the Lord. We've seen apologists. We've seen musicians. We've seen pastors fail morally or theologically fade away. Why do you think that happens? That's easy. Sex, money, or power. But I will also say this, that for every one pastor that falls, there's a thousand of them that don't. Amen. What are some of the biggest questions that you're

expecting to face that have maybe shifted in the last couple years? The top three objections to Today are morality, morality, morality, and morality. You're always going to get questions on LGBTQ issues. We as Christians have to be aware of this. If we're going to reach this generation, we have to see what the spirit of the age is. That's part of the problem. He used to say when the dialogue ends, the violence begins. Frank Turich, you and I've been friends about 20 or 25 years, one of the most well-known

apologists today, but a lot of people don't know your backstory. And so you have a new book that just came out, and it's kind of the war on reality. We're going to talk about it. But I want to use this opportunity with my son, one of the first people we've interviewed together. We interviewed the connectlies together. You are number two. And not in that order of importance, just so you know, Frank, just in terms of the order

that it happened. But I'm super interested to get in your story. So thanks for coming on with us. Great being with both you. And we're going to see there's some generational connections here. when we get into this conversation. I mean, it's great to see Scotty kind of following in your footsteps, Sean. But I'm kind of following in the footsteps of your dad, actually.

And we'll get into that. Okay, wow. I'm eager to hear what you mean by that. But let's go back to the Frank Turrick before you were a Christian growing up, your family. Where'd you grow up? What was it like? What were you like?

I could guess, but what would you like as a kid, man? I grew up in New Jersey. And so I was Catholic because it's the law. right you're either Catholic, Jewish, or a skeptic if you're from New Jersey. Way back, I grew up in the 60s and 70s. So I went to Catholic high school and I always believed in God. I knew there had to be a first cause out there. I knew there had to be a creator.

And I was never a kid that got into much trouble. I always felt like, you know, I should try and be as moral as I could. I thought God was watching. But I never really knew who Jesus was. And it wasn't until I got out of, actually through college, and I went into the Navy. I was a Naval RTC student. And so I went right in as a commissioned officer and went to Navigator School in Pensacola, Florida for aviation. And I met the son of a Methodist minister.

And he had so many questions, or I had so many questions for him, because I was always interested in God. I just didn't know who Jesus was. I had so many questions for him, Sean, that he finally said, look, you just need to get Josh McDowell books. Evidence demands a verdict and more than a carpenter. And so those were the books that I first read on Christian apologetics. And when I read them, I went, wow, this really looks like Christianity is true. And so when I got out of the Navy, I was taken, this is like 19. I was taking a course in apologetics because I was interested in it at McLean Bible Church in D.C.

That's where we were stationed. I was an RTC instructor at George Washington University, and I'd just gotten done with that. So I'm taking this class, and the leader of the class was a guy who named Barry Leventhal, who was meant to Dallas theological seminary, played for UCLA in the 1965 Rose Bowl. won the Rose Bowl there. He was a lineman. And he came to faith through Hal Lindsay, late great planet Earth and all that. And he had Norman Geisler as a professor when he was at Dallas Deological Seminary. So he invited Norm up to teach kind of a weekend portion of this class. And so I actually, I didn't know who Norm Geiser was, but my wife and I invited him to

stay at our home while he was teaching this weekend apologetics class. And one thing led to another. He said, hey, I'm starting a seminary in Charlotte. And if you're interested in apologetics, you ought to come down and check it out. So within six months of that meeting, we had already moved to Charlotte to go to seminary. That was before there was an internet. Of course, of course. You actually had to go somewhere to go to school.

You just couldn't, you know, do it on a computer. And so that's how I really got involved in apologetics. It really started with your dad's work. And then I met Norman Geisler and went to seminary here in Charlotte. Still a great place to go to seminary, s-es.edu. That great plug for S-E-S-S on a Biola Talbot program, Frank. You're woven in naturally, man. I'll give you kudos for that one.

Hey, I love it. I ask you one question about your childhood and you bring it A to apologetics, B to Jesus. So you're an evangelist and apologist at heart. Let me take a couple steps back. Why did you start showing interest in Jesus? Jesus. Was there some shift or was it just kind of like, you know what, next thing I want to study, ask questions about, was there kind of an existential crisis of any kind? What was it that just

made you be like, I want to know about Jesus also? Wasn't any crisis. I just wanted to know if Christianity was true. I mean, I've been taught about this Jesus guy. I mean, in Catholic school, you know, you take certain classes and but for me, it was so much about tradition and so much about liturgy. And I know that some people enjoy liturgy, but I grew up on it, and it frustrated me because I never felt like I was learning anything.

Because the mass, for me, was the same thing every week, except, you know, there was obviously different readings, but no commentary on the readings. And then a sermon, a homily, they call it, for like seven minutes.

And that was the only unique thing thought about in the church service and I said, you know, I really want to know if this is true. Is this, I mean, should I be, should I be following this? Is, who is this Jesus? He's hanging on a cross right there. Why? And I never, and look, I've, I've had conversations with Catholic apologists on this before and I've asked them, I've said, look, I've been to hundreds of masses in my life.

and I have never, ever heard the gospel about grace in a Roman Catholic homily except for the last Mass I went to. And that was my father's funeral. Oh, my goodness. The priest got up there and he said, this is in 2020. The priest got up there and said, I talked to Frank the other day, my dad. and he accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior, so he's in heaven right now.

He didn't say anything about sacraments. He didn't say anything about, you know, works. He just stated the clear truth that if you trust in Christ, you are forgiven and you're given Christ's righteousness and you have eternal life with the Lord. So I've asked Catholic apologists that. I said, why have I never heard this? and the way they answer back by saying, well, it's embedded in the mass. I said, I'm not asking about the mass.

I'm asking about the homily. How come I never hear a Catholic priest talking about grace? I never had ever. Now, that's just my limited experience. So I was always frustrated with that, Sean, growing up. I was like, we're just going through the motions here, man. It's like Jesus said, don't pray in these. repetitive prayers.

Gee, I wonder why. After a while, it's wrote. After a while, you don't even think about it anymore. Now, that's partially my fault. I get it, but I just never. I wasn't learning anything from the service. Let me put it that way.

I got one more question for you. Then, Scott is going to jump in. Before you kind of went into the world of apologetics and where you get to kind of what you're doing now in that journey, what would you have said the trajectory of your life was going to be? You were in the military. I know you were giving business talks. Like if you weren't doing this apologetics

and I asked you in your 20s where you're headed, where did you think you were headed or where were you trying to go? Well, I originally went into the Navy to fly. I wanted to fly. And so I went ROTC. I also wanted to serve the country. But when I got into RTC,

in those days you had to have perfect 2020 vision to be a pilot. Nowadays you don't. So I was like 20, 30, you know. Okay, it can't be a pilot, so I'll be what they call a naval flight officer. officer, a backseater, if you will. And so I was, I was on a P3, which is a big, ugly turbo prop that went out and hunted submarines. And so from about 1985 to about 1989, that's what I did. And I was

stationed mostly in California. I was up in San Jose area, Moffat Field, it was called, just the basis of San Jose Bay, or, yeah, the San Francisco Bay. And so I was there. And then after that, I went to RTC instructor I was an instructor at RTC in George Washington University, just five blocks west of the White House. And it was at that point, I wanted to figure out a way to get into

apologetics. But I knew that it would take me going to seminary. And I remember your dad was at a church there in the D.C. area. And he had just

done speaking. And I asked him, hey, if I want to get involved in apologetics, what do I do? He pointed at somebody like on his staff. He said, talk to that guy. So I did. And I don't remember where that went, but I providentially met Norman Geisler through this class at McLean Bible Church, and that's how I got in. Now, from going to seminary in 1993 to 2011, I was doing corporate training for companies

most of the time. I was doing sales training, leadership training, team building, that kind of stuff. While I was going through seminary, while I'd already started cross-examined, while I was going to college campuses, because I needed to feed the family, obviously. And it wasn't until 2011 when in the name of inclusion, tolerance, and diversity, I was fired and not tolerated for holding the diverse view of writing this book, correct, not politically correct, how same-sex marriage hurts everyone. It originally came out in 2008.

It's been updated a couple times since. then. So Cisco fired me, Bank of America fired me, and so I just basically went public with it. And I said these companies, which are supposed to be all about inclusion, tolerance, and diversity are not including nor tolerating me for holding the diverse view that marriage is between a man and a woman. And these weren't things I was bringing up at work. They just had somebody who hunted the internet and was part of the LGBT community and said, oh, this guy can't work here because he doesn't believe with same-sex marriage or he doesn't believe in same-sex marriage that was four years before obergapel that 2008 was prop eight in california by the way we're a majority of

californians yes we're in favor of natural marriage so that is 20 years ago to see how far we've come so you were if i understand from the 90s into 2008 you were doing apologetics part-time and that just pushed you out to do it full-time now we'll come to that i know scott has got a question for Yeah, so I asked Cliff Kineckley. He played college basketball at Davidson, and I said, hey, how did basketball shape the way that you are an apologist and evangelist now? And you mentioned that you were in the military. How has being in the military being part of ROTC shaped the way that you're an apologist and evangelist today? Well, being in the military forced you to get up on your feet and present and instruct.

And also it gave you obviously discipline. It also gave you structure. And, you know, you had to do what you said you were going to do. Some of the things are life and death. You're in an aircraft. You've got to do what you're supposed to be doing. So I think it helped me with structure, help me with discipline,

help me get up before people and present. So by the time I got out of the Navy, I already had some natural ability to present. And all I needed to do is educate myself on the subject. And I, you know, for years, we've been running the cross-examine instructor academy, as you know, Sean, you've helped us teach it several times. Yeah.

Where we're trying to help people get better at presenting the evidence for Christianity and deal with cultural issues. And in 19 years of doing this, I'd say that many fewer people than I expected have we identified that can really present well and answer questions well. Part of it is, I think, just gifting. people can understand a lot of times the material, but they can't present it well or they can't call it up fast enough to answer questions. So part of it is gifting. It's a difficult thing to teach. Let me put it that way. I mean, you can teach it, but it's not always that people can then apply it. That's the hard thing.

I like that you said discipline. I think with our generation, especially mine is that we're lacking discipline. So many of my kids, like I'm a youth pastor, so many of my kids will come to me like, how do I grow closer to God or how do I answer these questions? And they lack discipline in their life. And I think that I see that the military completely gave you that. And that's the advice that I get to those kids. I'm like, hey, instill disciplines in your life, whether you're addicted to porn or you're doing something you shouldn't be doing, like instilling those disciplines in your life and studying the scriptures. I love that you said that and that's what you did. Yeah, your habits will determine your future. I think Aristotle may have said that something like, you know, I'm paraphrasing, but your habits really are your destiny.

in the sense that if what you do every day is going to build your future for good or for evil and it's important to get those disciplines down and unfortunately we are so often pulled away from staying focused by of course social media and our iPhones and all that that's one of the problems it it pulls our attention away from what's really important Frank, you mentioned more than the carpenter and evidence it demands a verdict. If you ask my dad, and I have, what he thought when he was a skeptic trying to disprove Christianity, that book, Evidence It Demands a Verdict is full of a ton of evidence. But he actually was the only one when I interviewed 100 Christian apologists who believes prophecy is one of the most compelling evidence.

Also, the willingness of the apostles to suffer and die for their beliefs. And the manuscript evidence was compelling to him. I'd be curious when you first read those books, what was it about them? Was it the resurrection? Was it prophecy? Do you remember some of those pieces and those evidences at that time? And are they the same today? Or do you point towards other evidences that you consider most compelling that Jesus is God?

Hey listeners, it's Kelly from Life Audio. We know life gets busy, and sometimes it's easy for your faith to get pushed to the side. That's why we created the good word. A free weekly newsletter designed to give you a moment to slow down, be encouraged, and reconnect with what matters most, God's Word. Inside, you'll find devotionals, guided prayers, podcast recommendations, and other faith-filled content we think you'll love. No ads, no clutter.

Just good content to help you stay rooted in God's Word throughout your week. Sign up for the Good Word today at life audio.com forward slash the good word. That's life audio.com forward slash the good word. Well, there's only two things you need to establish, as you know, to show that Christianity is true. Number one, God exists. Number two, Jesus rose from the dead, right? Those are the two. And so I actually think the evidence is even more compelling for God than it is for Jesus.

And the reason I say that is because Jesus relies on some historical data, where as you can see right now, the evidence for God all around you. You can see the fine-tuning. You can see the expanding universe. You can detect that there's got to be a designer. Now, don't get me wrong, I think the evidence for Christianity is very strong, but it takes another step. And that other step involves historical inquiry and historical information.

I'm personally most persuaded. I mean, there's virtually no doubt in my mind. There's a creative intelligence out there. The only question is who is it, right? And I'm much more persuaded by archaeology, embarrassing testimony that they never would have invented, what you wrote about in your dissertation, the fate of the apostles.

I'm much more persuaded by that than manuscript evidence or, because, you know, you could, you could just have a faithful copy of a lie, right? So, I mean, manuscripts are necessary, but you can have a lot of manuscripts for the Quran. It doesn't mean the Quran's true, right? It's necessary, but not sufficient. And so these arguments that talk about, you know, why would they say the women were the first witnesses? Why would they depict themselves as dim-witted? Why would they say Jesus was called a madman, a drunker, demon-possessed? You know, why would they say their savior

was hung on a tree like a criminal? Why would they do all this stuff if they, if they're making it up? They wouldn't. And then why would they suffer persecution after being excommunicated from the synagogue and then beaten, tortured, and killed? Why would they do all that if they didn't really think Jesus rose from the dead. Answer, they wouldn't. And so I like to say to audiences that Christianity would be true if the Bible never existed. And people go, what do you mean? And I say to them, do you realize there were thousands of Christians before a line of the New Testament was ever written? Yeah. Why? Because they didn't read about it in a book. Christianity didn't begin with a book. It began with an event. the resurrection.

There would be no series of books written by Jews in the first century claiming a man claimed to be God and rose from the dead unless a man really did claim to be God and really did rise from the dead because there's no motive to invent it. So I really look back at the motivations and the implausibility

of this character known as Jesus an itinerant preacher in a remote part of the Roman Empire becoming the most influential, human being in history if the resurrection did not occur. In fact, in the new addition of I don't have enough faith to be an atheist, and thanks for endorsing it, it comes out in October. It's great. We added something that I learned from William Lane Craig and Tim McGrew over the past 20 years, and that is, it's not just the evidence for a particular proposition that you need to

look at to see if the proposition, the truthfulness of the proposition is so. You also need to look look at whether or not you would have this evidence if, say, Christianity was false. You know, would you have a universe exploded into being out of nothing fine-tuning, moral law, would we have free will and consciousness, would we have these laws of reason, would we have Old Testament prophecy, would we have all these Jewish people saying that a man claimed to be God and Rose in the Dead? Would they embarrass themselves and would they go to their deaths?

Would we have all this if Christianity wasn't true? Would you have non-Christian writers talking about this if it wasn't true? Would we have all this archaeological evidence if it wasn't true? And when you look at it from that perspective, you'd go, no, I don't...

It'd be like, you know, investigating it in a crime scene and, you know, would you have the guy's fingerprints on the weapon, would you have his DNA at the crime scene? Would you have the evidence that he had threatened this guy before? Would you have the fact that he's now trying to flee the country? Would you have all this evidence if he wasn't the real killer?

No. The evidence is he is the real killer. So I think you can look at it positively and from the other side to say, and probability theorists, by the way, know this. they say they look at it from that perspective and say what is the probability we'd have this evidence if the resurrection did not occur and when they add all that probability up the the evidence for the resurrection is extremely good i got one more question for you then i want scotty to weigh in here do you remember when you kind of made that decision to fall after christ what was

it like because i mean scotty just interviewed a young uh let's say, apologist and evangelist to Muslims. And she was like December, 20, 23, I remember it. My dad's like, I was in a library, gives the year, lean back. He's like, shouts out in the library. Christianity's true. My story was very different than that. It was just kind of a series of growth and understanding, even though there were

some pivotal moments. Was there kind of a moment you're like, oh, my goodness, Christianity's true. I need to personally trust Christ. And what was that like for you, if so? Well, there was a pivotal moment, I would say. It came in March of 1985 when the guy I mentioned earlier, who I met in flight school, who was the son of a Methodist minister, we're sitting in Sacramento, California. We're training, we're navigators there. And long story short, we were talking about, I asked him two questions. You know, if there is a good God, why is all this evil in the world? I mean, you know, I could take a gun out right now and shoot you, Mark. God wouldn't stop it. And secondly, how can you believe Jesus is the only way? You know, what about all those people in other countries

that never hear about Jesus? And all he quoted at that point was John 146, I'm the way the truth and the light. No man comes to the father except through me. And so we were going to go to church that morning, and I looked at my watch and said, well, we better get going because if we don't get there soon, we're going to miss the service.

And we really didn't even know where the church was or what time it started. We had a ballpark idea. So we got in my car. we knew it was Sunrise Church, and we're heading out to Highway 50 there in Sacramento, and he goes, hey, I think Sunrise Church is to the west. And I go, no, Mark, I think it's to the east. Now, keep in mind, we're two navigators, right?

And since I'm driving, we start heading east. And 10 minutes into the drive, there's no sign of Sunrise Avenue. And Mark goes, see? I told you it was the other way. Now, a man would rather drive 25,000 miles around the earth than admit he's wrong about direction. So I just kept driving. And a couple minutes later, I saw it, Sunrise Avenue. I go, see?

Anyway, we get off the highway and we find the church and we get into the parking lot. And the parking lot's full. Nobody coming. Nobody going. We're going. We're late. So we go into the church, side door, and we slither in because the pastor's right in the middle of a sermon. And we sit down.

And he's just standing like in front of the auditorium. It's just a gym. You know, the basketball hoops are up on each side, and he's standing kind of in the middle there with this Bible. That's all he's got. And I'm just sitting next to Mark. We just slithered in. And two minutes into us slipping in, he goes, oh, by the way, I forgot to tell you when we were in having breakfast. He said, John 14, 6, I'm the way, truth, and the life, no way comes father except through me.

And I said, Mark, that's kind of narrow. I mean, come on. And he said, well, it's in the Bible. I believe the Bible. it's true. So now we get into the sermon and two minutes in to the sermon, he goes, and then Jesus said, I'm the way the truth in the life. No man comes to the father except through me. And so Mark gives me an elbow, right? Like, hey, we're just talking about this. And then the preacher says, now some people think that's narrow. And so now he's really elbowing me. And he goes,

but you know what? The truth is narrow. If I want to, if I want to dial my friend John, here in the front row, I got to dial seven numbers in the exact order. If I get one number wrong, I don't get John. I get a wrong number. Now, I didn't immediately say Christianity is true at this point, but I said, look, we're coming to a church. We didn't know where it was. We didn't know when it started. We didn't know any of this. And we're talking about this verse that morning. And somehow, when we slip into this church, he's talking about this and addressing the very objection I had, there's something to this. Something's going on. God's providence is at work, right? I didn't have all my questions answered at that point, but at that point I'm going, yeah, this really does appear to be

true, and I'm still reading books at that point. So that was March, the reason I know it's March of 1985 is because I somehow ran into his son, Jonathan McKee. You might know Jonathan McKee. I do, yeah. Okay. Well, his father, Tom McKee, McKee, was the pastor of Sunrise Church in Sacramento, California. Texted Jonathan literally this week. That's crazy to hear.

Yeah. And so 10 years or so ago, Jonathan, I ran into one another. And I went and I had lunch with he and his dad who was, probably near 80, it's 10 or so years ago. And he went into his notes because he kept notes for every sermon. And he went back and it said it was like March, March 20th, 1985, whatever it was. And he sent me the notes. That's cool.

It said, John, 146, telephone illustration. He like wrote it in there. So it totally came full circle. That's awesome. So, Frank, we were responding to this Instagram video on a week ago, and it was about this Mormon who was trying to say, he was like, I'm trying to prove that we worship the same Jesus. And he's like, I'm going to go to the source.

And he asked chat, GBT. And we were both like, okay, no, that is not the source. Where would you tell a young person who's trying to discover truth, maybe about the Bible, about the person of Jesus? Where would you tell them to start? And why would you tell them to maybe start with Christianity? Yeah, I'm starting the Bible. I mean, that's the Bible.

People don't recognize. The Bible is a collection of historical document. written by eyewitnesses or people that knew eyewitnesses. We just assembled it under one binding, because the Bible's not one book, it's a library of books. Now, theoretically, we believe it's inspired and came from God, but even if you didn't think that, these are still eyewitness documents

that you can investigate and discover whether or not you think they're true. And we have four biographies of Jesus in this book, a library of books called the Bible, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. and when you look at the evidence, they put eyewitness details all over it that only an eyewitness would know.

And of course, we cover that and I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. So I would say, go to the source, the people that knew him and read what Jesus said and did. Is there a particular gospel you'd say, all right, I start with the gospel of John or start with Matthew?

Is there a specific one? You're like, I think this is the best for somebody who's never read the Bible, never read the gospels to start at. Well, probably John, because it has less. less required knowledge of the Old Testament in it, even though there is some of it in there, obviously.

So John or Luke maybe, I mean, Luke has some great parables that aren't found elsewhere like the prodigal son, you know. So any of them. But I think that the Bible is, the Bible is, some of the best evidence for Christianity, if understood properly. In fact, we just have an online course we're going through right now called the Bible you never knew. And when you look at Jesus saying in Luke 24, the whole Old Testament's about me,

you go, how can it be all about you? Well, when you really investigate it, you start realizing so many characters in the Old Testament are foreshadowing Jesus. And once you see that, you go, oh, wow, this thing is all interconnected. I never knew. You can't unsee that once you see it. It changes everything. Yeah.

Once you see, you can't unsee it. So you started going to seminary in the 90s, went full-time 2011. And you've been running, I mean, full steam ahead since then, writing, speaking, debating. If you had to think through two or three of just the most significant ministry moments, and it could be on stage or it could just be a ministry moment that's not on stage, what are like two or three highlights for you that were just most significant and memorable, and special to you. Well, most of them actually occur after because you get emails from people, right?

Or you get comments in a YouTube video. You know, I was far away and then I, you help bring me back to the faith. Or, you know, I was searching and I read your book or it's the processes. You know, Sean, rarely do people just come to faith after they hear your message once? unless so many seeds have been planted to that point that boom now you know is our friend j warden wallis would say they're they're on third base leaning in right so um i think it's probably more just comments that we get from people who uh have seen our material online or read the book or came to an event now the most the most impactful

event obviously was the murder of Charlie Kirk because I was there with him. And not only personally, but I think in a ministry sense, it made people's hearts tender. And they have been for almost a year now, there's more interest in spiritual and answers to why we hear what's this all about why this evil uh so it's it's an opportunity that's why we kind of doubled our our efforts over the past year because we knew that hearts were more tender than normal and there was a shift particularly early on from skepticism to evangelism in terms of questions in other words we're getting fewer questions about well i don't think you're right about this too how can i get my friend to become a christian you know uh so

that event was, well, it's going to be the biggest event in my life personally and ministry-wise, other than accepting Jesus and maybe marrying my wife, obviously. But it's an event you could do nothing about, but it happened, right? And the book, The War on Reality, was already in probably halfway done by the time that happened. And when it happened, I turned to Phoenix, our, you know, my co-author on it and said, this book ought to be dedicated to Charlie because he was someone who was fighting for reality while so many people were fighting against it. And so the whole first chapter, the title of the first chapter is murder on campus.

And it leads up to what happened that day. You know, Charlie and I were together for the three days prior to that. and we had met several times prior to that to train for this. And then what happened that day, what happened after it? And then how many different aspects of reality people are denying now because they want something other than God, really? I mean, it started in the Garden of Eden, right? The war on reality started there.

Has God said, right? No, I want to do it. my own thing so i don't like what god said and uh the guy that allegedly kids killed charlie killed him it appears because he didn't like what charlie was saying on sexuality and uh people are at war with sexual categories and how god made them and and that's why he thought charlie was a fascist kind of ironic when you think about it we all know that a typical fascist tactic is to him hand your opponent to microphone and say, go ahead, make your case. And then we'll have a discussion.

No. Newsflash, the guy that killed Charlie was the fascist, somebody who couldn't tolerate anything other than what he thought. And so there's a war on reality everywhere. And I think at the root of it, Sean and Scotty, is rebellion. You know, it's really, we've got two choices in life. We can rebel against reality or we can repent and say, God, you're God and I'm not. but so many of us want to rebel and rebel just leads to judgment.

I mean, reality is undefeated, right? You know, nobody beats reality ultimately. It's undefeated and it's a fool's errand to fight against reality. In fact, Erica Kirk wrote the foreword for this and Charlie didn't marry her just because she's pretty. She's brilliant. I mean, I don't know if you've seen the forward, even if you don't buy the book, if you go to the war on reality, com you can read it. I'm paraphrasing what she said in the forward, but she said, I had a new reality that happened to me, September 10th, 2025. And I could deny it, but I found that peace doesn't come

from denying reality. It comes from surrendering to it. And she long ago surrendered our life to Christ and is now trying to push forward through these demonic attacks to put her life back together, bring up her two orphaned kids or two fatherless kids, and move her husband's legacy forward. Hey, Frank, I know, I know you were there at the moment that Charlie Kirk got shot. If you, if you could sit across the table right now from Tyler Robinson, what is the one thing you would tell him? I would tell him the gospel because I want him to be saved just like everybody else,

that you can be forgiven for all the evil you've done, not just shooting Charlie Kirk, but any other evil. I mean, we've all done evil. We all need a savior. And if he is guilty, and evidence sure seems like he is, I hope he repents, I hope he's saved, and then I hope he's executed, because that's what he deserves. and ironically the death penalty in Utah is firing squad.

Wow. That's what he should get. And the death penalty is affirmed in the Bible. In fact, Jesus even affirms it. Pilate said to him, don't you know I have the authority to kill you? And Jesus didn't say, no, you don't. He said, yeah, but you get that authority from above. And Paul talks about Romans 13, that the ruler doesn't bear the sword for

nothing. The sword is a reference to capital punishment. It's just and it shows the value of innocent human life and it also deters future acts of murder. So I sure hope Tyler Robinson repents. I know for me, I remember where I was when Charlie Kirk got shot. I was sitting on my couch at Biola and I remember looking at myself when I saw the news and I was like Scotty what are you doing with your life like kind of like what you were talking about earlier like I was like Scotty God has given you so many gifts but you are just squandering them you're the god of your own life like I was addicted to porn living my live in my life on my own terms and it was Charlie's death that ultimately got me to look look within to be like I want to trust God with these gifts that he's

given me but I'm literally squandering them and I just that's super powerful that you would say I've thought about what I would say at Tyler Robinson if I sat across from, I literally think I would tell him the story just of Joseph and what Joseph said to his brothers. Like, what you intended for evil, God can use for good. And I've seen that, especially in my generation, so many people, Charlie completely and utterly affected. And I know that's what I would want to share with him. Well, what you just said, I've had several people say that to me. I was doing nothing with my life. And when Charlie Kirk was murdered, I said, I need to get in the game.

Right. I need to do something. Whatever my gift is, I got to find it and use it for the Lord. You know, it was such a tragedy that a 31-year-old Christian who was making such a difference for the Lord and for the country was murdered. But you know, it's an equally bad tragedy. Live in 80 years and doing nothing for the Lord. And so many people do that.

They're just taking up space. It's like Jesus looking at the fig tree, you know. hey if you're not doing anything why do you even exist so i mean we yeah we we we've talked about a lot in you know in the book of acts like why why like why does god allow suffering like why did god allow charlie kirk to get killed and we talked about that story with uh with peter when peter or james is murdered or he's marty and then peter is in jail he gets put in jail by herod and then the angel comes and saves him but we asked the question like why did god allow james to die but i think when you look at the story in its context that, you know, that finally, it took James dying for the

disciples to finally listen and to finally take the gospel and spread it to all the nations, not just in Jerusalem. And I've totally seen that with Charlie's death. And that was the biggest factor in my life to be like, I got to get off the couch. Like, I am just not living my life. And I don't even know what God's will is for my life. I don't want to find that out. Frank, let me ask you this. When we first met, I was in my upper 20s. I was doing the math a little bit, which means I was not that much older than Scotty is right now. And just as my dad just has encouraged you along the way, including the time where he said, hey, talk to this guy, you've encouraged me. What's your advice? I guess I'm asking somewhat selfishly as a father, seeing my son come up with skills, with motivation, with a desire

to be an apologist. What's your encouragement to young apologist and young evangelists and really just young Christians today who want to make a difference for the the gospel. Well, one of the things is the same thing your father told you when you were going through your period of doubt, right? Like, son, that's great because your faith can't be my faith, but just promised me one thing. You're going to follow the truth wherever it leads. That's what he said, right? That's right. Pretty much. Yeah, you got it. So Chuck Smith said something years ago, too, that's very helpful. If people are having doubts, don't let what you don't know cause you to doubt what you do know.

It's great. There's a lot of what we don't know, right? But that doesn't change the fact of all the things we do know about God. You know, people say, what about the hiddenness of God? Okay. That's a question we can ask, but the hiddenness of God doesn't affect the cosmological argument. Doesn't affect the fine-tuning of the universe. It doesn't affect the DNA we find in life, which comes from a primordial.

programmer doesn't affect the intricacies of life that requires a designer doesn't affect the moral law doesn't affect that we have reason and laws of logic and laws of math and old testament prophecy and new testament miracles it doesn't affect any of that right so don't let what you don't know cause you to doubt what you do know and then finally i would say for each individual is that you have some gifting i agree with greg kokel on this i i always hear people say i was called to do this I was called to do that. I don't like that language. The reason being is unless you're the apostle,

you're the apostle Paul on the road to demand that you weren't called. Okay. You were gifted with certain qualities, certain gifts that you have that you can use for the body of Christ. So get plugged in and use your gift, whatever that is. And there are several gifts that the New Testament talks about. Maybe you have the gift of teaching. Maybe you don't.

Maybe you have the gift of hospitality. Or maybe you have the gift of helps or you have the, you know, several other gifts that you could use for the kingdom, gift of service, whatever it is, join a church, join a small group, and do something to move the kingdom forward. You know, I think it was Aquinas who said God gives us the dignity of causality, that God could do everything himself if he wanted to, but then what would we be doing, right? I mean, he gives us the ability to affect time and eternity. And that's a great gift that too often is God he was saying we squander.

You know, we sit around wasting our time doing nothing. I mean, one day we're all going to, if we're saved, we're all going to get to heaven. And I don't want to be sitting around with Moses and David and the Apostle Paul and John and Peter. And they're reminiscent about what they did for the Lord. What am I going to say? Right? Oh, I was too scared to put something on Facebook. I was afraid I was going to be unfriended.

You know, I mean, get in the game. If Christians really were salt and light, many of the problems we see in our culture, much of the war on reality would be far, far less than it is now. I got one more for you. Then I'll come back to you, Scottie. I don't have a lot of regrets, Frank. I just don't.

I've made mistakes and done stupid stuff and learned from. it. But in part, I think, life is making mistakes and learning from it. And my dad's taught me, don't live in the past, like, keep moving forward. But turning 50 this year, I started thinking about what would I tell my younger self? And I honestly kind of wish I could take a third of the books that I read and just throw them in the flames and have read Romans 50 more times, Ezekiel 50 more times. But you know what? There's a lot of books I read. And I really, I think I know the scripture as well and read it like crazy. But I would just toss a third of the books that I thought were important that just pale

in comparison to the scriptures and knowing and owning the scriptures. Do you have any regrets? What would you tell your younger self? No, it's very similar. In fact, I was just in Oxford a couple weeks ago and I got to interview John Lennox. Amazing. We're going to post on our YouTube channel here soon. I asked him that kind of same question.

You know, John, you got almost 83 years of experience. what would you tell the younger people here? And he basically said, get into the word more. William Graham actually said that toward the end of his life. Really? Yeah. Wow. So because if it is God's word, and we of course all believe it is,

that's the most important thing we can know and share with others. And as I mentioned earlier from an apologetics perspective, Once you see how integrated the scriptures are, it's really hard to deny there's a divine hand behind them. Amen. And by the way, let me jump in here. And there's a difference between some apologists telling you that and going, oh, yeah, I agree. And discovering it yourself. So when I read Acts, I'm like, where is grace in Acts?

And of course, in Acts 1631, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. I'm reading Hebrews going, okay, where's the heart of grace? Hebrews 4. Those who enter into his rest are those who believe. Of course, in John, you know, it's all about believing in having eternal life. And what work must you do, John 629, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. I could keep going, but there's a certain reward and beauty that comes from, rather than reading somebody else's apologetics book,

discovering it yourself, then you really own it. And I think that's what comes from studying the scriptures and apologetics books. So I'm sure you get asked all the time. What's your favorite argument for God? All those types of questions. I would like to ask you talking about the Bible. How does Dr. Frank Turrick read the Bible daily? Do you think there's one way to do it?

How do you read the Bible? No, because I'll be honest with you. I'm not a systematic kind of reader. I kind of read things that I need to know more about. So, you know, what I tend to do is I usually read Proverbs as often as I can, especially like today's the 27. So I read Proverbs 27. That's one of the things I do. And then I might just say, I'm going to read Mark, you know, and I'm just going to go through that.

And then I'll pick another book. Or if there's something that I think I need to be better at, especially in understanding the scripture so I could be a better teacher. then I'm going to, you know, read a certain section or investigate a certain thing. To be honest with you, I'm not a devotional reader. I just, that doesn't, that doesn't edify me. I'm not that kind, I'm not that kind of person. I'm more analytical when it comes to it. I'm like trying to uncover insights to the, from the scriptures that I can apply.

although if I'm feeling if I do feel kind of under attack or depressed I think the Psalms are very good Psalms are cathartic right but I'm not a devotional kind of reader

I'm a more investigative kind of reader I'm kind of trying to make connections wow look at this you know that's what excites me about it why do you think some leaders we've seen a We've seen musicians, we've seen pastors, just fail morally or theologically fade away. And especially at this stage of my life, I'm just not that surprised anymore.

I'm saddened and it's heartbreaking every time. But why do you think that happens? And what things can somebody build into their life to best avoid those kind of things, if possible? That's easy. the Modesto Manifesto. The Billy Graham pledged they made to one another when they went to Modesto, California in the late 40s,

they saw that there was three things that could derail them, sex, money, or power. And so they made a pact between themselves that in order to avoid those temptations, like for example, they would make sure they were never alone in the presence of another woman, not their wife. Because they didn't even want the appearance,

of impropriety. Today we call that the Mike Pence rule. No, that's the Billy Graham rule. That's right. Billy Graham, I mean, there were times when they'd send somebody up to his hotel room before he got there. And there were times they found a prostitute in the room with a photographer hiding in the closet. That happened to my dad.

And I know what university it was. And I will not mention it here as tempting as it is. You've got to take those precautions. People are going to try and set you up. Right. and they would never handle the money because that that's a temptation. And they would never inflate their numbers. You know, at a crusade, they would, if the cops said there were 10,000 people there,

that's what they said, right? They didn't want to do anything that would cause them to bring disrepute on Christ's name or their own ministry. And so those are the three temptations we all have now. They're just exacerbated by the fact that they're easy to get now on your iPhone. Right. And so you need accountability. You need people around you.

But I will also say this, that for every one pastor that falls, there's a thousand of them that don't. Amen. I'm so glad you brought that up. Keep going. And the reason that you hear about these things is because the media only covers Christianity for two things. Number one, did a Christian fall? Number two, how did Christians vote? that's all they they care about they're never going to cover samaritan's purse going on over to

Venezuela and serving the earthquake victims down there or Tibet or wherever they go no they're not going to talk about hospitals or orphanages they're not going to talk about all the good that's done all the billions of dollars that are given every year by Christians no they're only going to talk about when somebody prominent falls look at the hypocrite he is and number two man, these Christians, we got to get them out of public life because they keep voting the wrong way. Right. I mean, that's pretty. It's a war on reality.

You know, it's a diametrically opposed worldview to Christianity in many cases. And so I think there's a good way of dealing with the hypocrisy objection. When people call you a hypocrite, I think what you ought to say is, you know, you're right. So what does that prove? If you realize you've just given evidence for God, what do you mean? Well, you're implying hypocrisy is wrong. How can anything be wrong if there's no God? That's just your opinion.

And by the way, do you realize that everyone's a hypocrite? Yeah, sure, Christians are hypocrites. So are Muslims. So are Jews. So are atheists. So are agnostic. So are New Ages. They're all hypocrites.

People don't even live up to their own standards, much less the standards of Jesus. that's why we all need a savior. And by the way, when somebody plays Beethoven poorly, who do you blame? You don't blame Beethoven. Look. So you blame the player, right? So just because I'm not true and beautiful doesn't mean Jesus isn't true and beautiful. You know, newsflash, Christianity is not Christians, it's Jesus.

Keep your eyes on Jesus. And if we weren't hypocrites, we wouldn't need a savior. And this is why when people say, I can't go to Jesus. church because there's too many hypocrites down there. I always say, come on down, pal, we got room for one more. In fact, saying you can't go to church because there's too many hypocrites down there. It's like saying, I can't go to the gym because there's too many out-of-shape people down there. You're like, well, that's what? One of the reasons they're there. They're trying to get into shape. And one of the reasons you go to church, not the only reason, but one of the reasons is to get into

moral shape. And so these objections just don't work. They prove the opposite, actually. So as you're preparing to go on a big college tour or campus tour this year, what are some of the biggest questions that you're expecting to face that have maybe shifted in the last couple years that you're like, this is definitely going to be asked every single college I go to. Or even the past 10, 20 years, how have you seen these questions shift? Well, 20 years ago in the heyday of the new atheist, we'd get pushback on arguments for God from, say, science, you know, cosmological, teleological, we'd get pushback. We don't get that much anymore. You probably don't either, Sean. You're doing some colleges now as well. The top three objections to Christianity today are morality, morality, and morality.

You're always going to get questions on LGBTQ issues. You're going to get questions on, you know, the God of the Old Testament is the God of the Old Testament evil. What about slavery? What about, you know, killing the Canaanites, all that kind of thing? Why doesn't a God allow me to sleep with whomever I want? They're not as much concerned as is Christianity true. they're more concerned with is Christianity good, according to their definition of good, right? And today, you have to understand the sort of spirit of the day.

And in the book, The War on Reality, we cover it in Chapter 10. The spirit of the day is the cultural Marxist view that if you have certain qualities, you're automatically considered an oppressor. And if you have other qualities, you're automatically considered oppressed. regardless of what your own personal behavior is. Your own personal behavior could be as wonderful as, say, a mother Teresa. But if you're somebody, according to them, who is, say, a white, heatherosexual Christian man who is a citizen of the United States, you're automatically by this theology,

and it is a theology, you're automatically considered an oppressor. On the other hand, if you're a person of color, if you're LGBTQ, if you're a non-citizen, if you're a non-Christian, you're automatically considered oppressed regardless of your personal behavior. And this is why, by the way, you get some of these head scratchers like gays for Gaza, right? You go, wait a minute. If you're LGBTQ and you go over to Gaza, you're going to be murder. Why are you aligning with Islamists who would kill you? Because they're both considered on the oppressed side of the scale and the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I mean, if you really look at this, the ultimate enemy is Christianity. Everything Christian properly understood is opposed by the

culture. And so the more aspects of reality that you have, that are considered oppressed aspects or suppressed, I should say, oppressed characteristics, you are somebody that should be heard. On the other hand, if you're considered an oppressor, you have these oppressor qualifications. You're automatically someone who should not be heard and maybe even violently put down. I mean, if you look at what happened to Charlie, he had every one of those characteristics. He was a white Christian, heatherosexual male who was a citizen of the United States. And according to cultural Marxism, that's an oppressor.

And this is why Tyler Robinson said, oh, there's some things that can't be negotiated away. I know this isn't true of everyone, but the data shows this. Three percent of very conservative people think it's okay to sometimes use violence to advance a political viewpoint. 25% of very liberal people think it's sometimes okay to use violence to advance a political viewpoint. In other words, very liberal people are more than eight times more likely to use violence to advance their political views than very conservative people. We saw it on 9-10 last year. Now, again, this is still a minority, but it's a significant minority. and we as Christians have to be aware of this.

If we're going to reach this generation, we have to see what the spirit of the age is. And right now the spirit of the age is to put people in these, many of these are non-moral categories, right? They're saying your skin color matters. They're saying your sex matters as to how we're going to treat you, whether we think you're an oppressor or oppressed. What country you're from matters, right?

and even how much money you make matters. If you make, if you're above middle class, automatically you're considered an oppressor. And this, of course, comes from Carl Marx. And it's exactly opposite the Bible, which says there's no partiality. Treat everyone fairly. Don't favor the rich or disfavor the poor. Treat everybody fairly. It goes completely against Martin Luther King, who's,

said, I have a dream that my four children will not be judged by the color of their skin, by the content of their character. That's all been flipped around now. And this is where, of course, DEI comes from. It comes from this cultural Marxist viewpoint. And Christians need to know about it if they're going to, if they're going to make a difference in this culture. There was a study in the Wall Street Journal. This week, they reported one in six Americans say it's morally okay for Luigi Mangione to assassinate the healthcare CEO. Of those under 30, 22% said the assassination of Charlie Kirk was justified. Now, this article did not break it down in terms of left, right, conservative, liberal.

I wish it had. But one in five, Frank, said that it is justified, which is crazy. 22%, you said? 22%. I can shoot you the articles in the Wall Street Journal. It was a commentary opinion piece. 22% of those under 30 say it was morally justified. Well, I highly doubt any of those were conservatives.

Right. That's who Charlie agreed with, obviously. Yeah. But Charlie wasn't totalitarian. Charlie was somebody who just wanted to have a conversation. And that's part of the problem. He used to say when the dialogue ends, the violence begins.

And I think so much of this too, Sean and Scotty, is driven by the fact that we don't teach logic anymore because people are taken by deceptive practices and logical fallacies like the hasty generalization fallacy. In fact, let me give you two quick examples of this. back last winter when Tim Walts and Governor Fry up there in Minneapolis let out criminals who happened to be illegal aliens rather than hand them over to ICE, ICE obviously had to go into the communities and track these folks down because they're dangerous. And there were some confrontations that looked really bad on video.

And so people would see these 15, 20-second clips out of context or they don't know the context, and they would look at them and go, wow, these ICE people, are evil. We need to abolish ice and we need to defund the police. Now, this is called a hasty generalization because they're taking one anecdote and applying it to an entire group. This, in my day, we used to call this prejudice, right? That you have one experience and you universalize that experience to an entire group. That's obviously illegitimate, but we don't teach logic anymore. So people don't understand that. How about from the other side of the political aisle? You just brought up that stat.

Yeah. Sean. It would be illegitimate of me or you or any other conservative to say all trans people are violent because we've seen several trans shooters recently. Because, again, it would be a hasty generalization. Although the data does show that as a subgroup, people who identify as trans tend to be more violent than others, but it's still a tiny minority of that group. And so we have to be ratch.

rather than emotional, when we get emotional and prejudice people or smear people or slander people, we're not being Christian, we're not being reasonable. And what we cover in the war on reality are some of these fallacies. And another fallacy, of course, is what's often used called linguistic theft, where people will describe evil in pleasant-sounding terms, like abortion has become reproductive justice. Health care. Yeah. Or health care.

Or the baby is now called a product of conception, right? But as we just saw in Massachusetts, you've got people applauding a law which allows the murder of babies up to the moment of birth. And there's no medical reason to ever kill a baby in the third trimester. If there's a problem, you can extract the baby through C-section if the mother has a problem. but you don't have to kill the baby to do that. And yet this governor up there signed this and people all applauded this. This is madness. It's barbarism.

And where are the Christians? Well, they're hiding under their desk or congratulating themselves on how winsome they are, why people are being killed. This is not the way. We have to be involved politically. If we're not involved politically, I can tell you who is. Satan's involved politically. And this is the end result we get.

Frank Scottie Knight. could probably sit here and ask you questions for hours, just curious about your life, your beliefs, your ministry, your family. We didn't even get to superheroes, Scotty.

You wrote a book on superheroes. I was going to ask you your favorite movie, ask you questions about your favorite TV show. Or how the new Spider-Man was. Hey, the new Spider-Man. Well, Colliewood Heroes.

It's out there. I know. That's a fascinating, fascinating book. Love that Scott and I are doing some stuff together. You did that with your son, Zach, as well. So good stuff,

my friend, thank you for coming on. The new book out is called The War on Reality. And I appreciate your team this fall is helping me on college campuses to get some footage and social media out there. So super appreciate the help. Always enjoy the conversation. Make sure you follow Frank and his ministry. And make sure you hit subscribe here. We've got a lot more shows coming up on all sorts of ethical, moral, apologetic, historical, archaeological topics. You will not want to miss. And you can can go to Southern Evangelical Seminary to bring a full circle. We are partners here. We want everybody to get theological training.

That's the most important thing. But we'd love to have you here at Talbot School Theology as well. Thanks, Frank. This is fun. Thank you, Sean. Thank you, Scotty. Glad to see the father's son team out there. By the way, also want to mention we have two podcasts a week.

It's called, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist podcast. So you can check that out. Also, as I mentioned, we're going to have John Lennox on there. By the time this airs, he'll probably be out. I'm sure. You need to check that out. Lennox is just my favorite apologist out there. What a great man. Well, he might be my second. I was like my grandpa still. Come on. What are we doing here?

He's 87, but come on, man. Come on, man. He did tell me to say, I told him and Dodie that I was coming on and talking you and they said send their love to Frank. We love him. Oh, no. I love your parents. I mean, your dad is really the one, man. Those books. That was the one that, you know. Evidence demands a verdict more than more than a carpenter, but more than a carpenter was good too.

And I know you've updated both of those, Sean, so they're still out there, right? Yeah, we updated more than a carpenter 2024. So we did a second update. And then evidence came out 2017, but we're working on an update. We're just starting that'll come out in 2030 again. So that's the book that just keeps on giving, man.

The evidence just keeps coming and updating it. So we're on it. All right, guys. See you, brother. See you. Bye. Hey, friends. If you enjoyed this show, please hit that follow button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning in haven't done this yet. And it makes a huge difference in helping us reach and equip more people and build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every review helps. Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where we have on campus and online programs in apologetic, spiritual information, marriage and family, by and so much more. We would love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and defend

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