The Sean McDowell Show - What Heaven Is REALLY Like (w/ Dr. Michael Youssef)

Episode Date: January 10, 2025

Is heaven boring or delusional? What are the biggest misconceptions about heaven? It seems like many Christians are unenthusiastic about Heaven will really be like, and many skeptics have a faulty view of what the Bible really teaches. Dr. Michael Youssef is the senior pastor of the Church of the Apostles in Atlanta. He's written a book that we'll cover today on heaven and how we should think about heaven. READ: Heaven Awaits: Anticipate Your Future Hope, Your Eternal Home, Your Daily Reality by Michael Yourself (https://store.ltw.org/category/new-from-dr-youssef/heaven-awaits-book) WATCH: 16 Questions on Heaven with Randy Alcorn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxL6LCsJG10 *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: @sean_mcdowell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org

Is heaven boring? Is belief in heaven delusional? These are just some of the questions I've thought a lot about. I'm guessing you have too. When I saw our guest today, pastor and author Dr. Michael Youssef, has a new book called Heaven Awaits. I knew I had to have him on. Dr. Michael Youssef, I can't believe I haven't had you yet. You've been friends with my family for decades. Thanks for writing a great book and thanks for coming on. Oh, thank you, Sean. What a privilege. What an honor. I feel great because the next generation of the great Josh McDowell, I'm just so honored to be with you. Thank you

so much for having me. Well, kind of you to say that. Let me jump right into your book. You've written on a lot of topics. You're a pastor, so you have addressed a range of issues. What motivated you personally to research and write a book on heaven? Well, to be quite honest, it's a confusion that I have found among Christians. As I traveled the globe, I've been around the world 77 times, and there's just so much confusion, particularly in the West, in America, some in Europe. But in the United States, even church people were so confused about heaven, and some think this and some think that. And I said, you know, it doesn't matter what I think. It never does matter. What the Bible said is what mattered and I wanted to know

whether I preached on heaven through the years but I wanted to dive in and really don't come out for air until I found everything that the Word of God says about heaven and put it together in such a way that it just makes sense and in the average believer will not be confused anymore now for the average non-believer who is a seeker will be able to see the truth and operate that they will accept it and the life will be changed but generally speaking the truth is the truth is the truth i've never been afraid of the truth because it always wins in the end and so when i delved into this and i came up with

with this book and i think it was my 51st book uh that i have written two since then but uh I wanted really the body of Christ to be confident on heaven, why heaven, and where is heaven, and all those questions that the Bible does answer for us, but you have to really kind of get into it and explain it. And that's what I attempted to do. Now, you're writing primarily to Christians, but I think if skeptics read it and end up not believing it, at least they'd understand what most Christians believe about heaven and why, and not reject a straw man. Because as we're going to get into today, there's a lot of misunderstandings Christian and non-Christians have, at least about the biblical view of heaven. And so clarifying that is helpful. But let me ask you a question before we jump into some of

the specific questions people are eager to. You said you traveled the world around 70 sometimes. Do you find that there's more misunderstanding about heaven in the West than in the East? Or maybe you've just had more conversations about that in the West than in the East? Well, in the East, and particularly the Middle East, which I'm very familiar with, the believers, generally speaking, in any persecuted culture, society, they are much more interested about heaven, and they're to find more about heaven, because that's a hope. When you, I tell people, you know, we're talking about the great tribulation. Well, for the folks in the Middle East, they are having the tribulation right now in some other countries, in Nigeria and elsewhere. And so I found that in, particularly in the Middle East, they know all about heaven because they constantly go into the scripture.

And that's a hope. That's the only comfort they have in the suffering of this world. happy-go-lucky, life is good and prosperous and more concerned about what's on television tonight than anything else, the thought of heaven is not in their mind. But if it is, they have a confused sense of what heaven is like and what heaven is about and and so really it's it's it's a vitally important subject especially as we are here we say in in the south we're fixing to get into a persecution time we beginning but this is just the beginning we are fixing to get into times of difficulties that evangelical Christians, at least in modern times, have never experienced, and they don't know how to deal with.

I'm forever telling my congregation that we need to train our children, our next generation, to know how to handle pressure, how to handle rejection, how to handle persecution, how to handle people who are absolutely opposed to the Christian faith. And they're not just opposed, but there's so many of them are militant, anti-Christians. And you see that now more and more and with very enlarged and magnified way that we would not have seen 40 years ago, 30 years ago, even 20 years ago. And so we're coming into a very significant time in our lives.

And I have 14, the 15th on the way, grandchildren. Wow. And I would love, you know, to talk to them how, if this happens, how do you stand up for your faith? How do you lovingly, without being angry or militant or, you know, respond in kind to love people and defend your faith? And so understanding heaven is part of that. That makes total sense. You're about a decade younger than my dad and about 10 years ago.

Nine years. Nine years to be exact. I started asking him questions when he was about 75, 76, just about life and wisdom and leadership. I called it wisdom from my father, just trying to collect it. And one thing I asked him when he was about your age, I said, what's changed in your thinking now? And he said, I find myself thinking about heaven more than I used to, which makes sense as you get older. So I'm curious, is that true for you? And did that play a role in writing this book for you personally? Well, bullseye, you hit it right on the mark, because that is true, that while I've always been growing up in the Middle East, my first 18 years, we sang about heaven, we're interested in heaven,

always talked about heaven. My grandfather, who lived to be 92, was a Plymouth Brethren, and he was waiting for the rapture. I mean, every morning he'll go up to the roof looking for the rapture. And so I grew up familiar with that. But then I got busy, you know, going to seminary and being trained and having family and so on. But as you come to the side of 60 you really begin to think well where am I gonna spend eternity oh no it's heaven I know I believe you know because of my faith in Jesus Christ and surrender to him I love his appearing at least if one of the five crowns in the Bible I'm gonna get this one because I am always saying Lord come Lord Jesus every day um and that intensifies

as you get older you're absolutely right that is just in fact i remember one of the younger members of our congregation and i'm training the younger generation of business leaders to become lay leaders and one said you know you wrote this book to your generation i said no i wrote it through true that my generation are more interested in heaven because they are getting close to it. But also is going to, the way I wrote it is going to motivate everyone at any age, whether it be in their 30s, the 40s or 50s, is going to motivate you to work, live, serve, and not sit on the blessed assurance and do nothing. And so it is for every age, but nonetheless, you're right. You're exactly right. It is that kind of closeness

that drove me to the point of saying, I want to write that book. Before we jump into the questions that I know people have about misconceptions related to heaven, et cetera, one more. Would you share your personal journey to faith? You said you grew up in the Middle East. Did you come from a Muslim background, Christian heritage? Did belief in heaven at all play a piece of that journey? Yes. My ancestors goes back to 2000 years of Christianity. And believe it or not, and this is something that you would know as a historian and a professor, that Alexandria for the first 300 years of Christianity was the center of Christianity.

In the beginning, the Jews who were in Jerusalem during the day of Pentecost from Alexandria, and the book of Acts makes clear that Alexandria, and Alexandria was really a very significant Jewish learning center, had a very, very large Jewish population before Christ's time. And it was those Jews who were in Jerusalem during the day of Pentecost who heard the gospel and were converted to Christ, came to Alexander and brought the gospel. And so later when John Mark had this disagreement with Paul, and, you know, Barnabas and Paul had this altercation over John Mark,

and if you remember, but this is not in the Bible, it's in the traditional history uh john mark says lord i want to prove to paul that i am really worthy of of serving you and so he said send me to a toughest place so he he was went to alexandria but he found the nucleus of a church but then he with the fervor and the preaching of the gospel the church grew under his leadership and then he was martyred in Alexandria. And so the church began to grow so fast that within less than, by the year 100, I guess, 99, 100, 85% of the population converted from the worshipping the god Sun Ra to being Christians.

85% of the population. And that continued, reached almost 90% by the second century, and it kept growing. Then the Church of Alexandria, the School of Alexandria, with Clement of Alexandria in Oregon, and Bishop Athanasius of the Athanasius Creed, all these were Alexandrian theologians. And Rome had not come on the scene yet.

Rome did not come on the scene until after the 300s. And so Egypt has been a bastion of Christianity for 2,000 years, and until the Arabs came from Arabia, the Muslims came and invaded, and they really made it difficult for Christians to survive, and they would literally threaten their life, or otherwise they asked them to pay jizya, it's an Arabic word meaning penalty, that's a high form of taxation,

only a Jew and a Christian must pay to the Muslim masters to become a protector of the state or a dhimmi. And so all of my ancestors basically through those 1400 years of Islamic occupation were able to pay the jizya and survive. Today we have about 15 million Christians in Egypt out of 100 million or so. It's mostly, the vast majority of them are Coptic Orthodox and 2 million Evangelicals and about 250,000 or so Catholics, Roman Catholics. They call them Coptic Catholics, but Coptic is the word means Egypt.

Really, that's the the word means Egypt. Really, that's the ancient word for Egypt. So Coptic Orthodox is Egyptian Orthodox or Coptic Evangelical or Christian Egyptian Evangelical. The largest of all 20, no, no, 32 denominations now, evangelical denominations, the largest is the Presbyterian Church and whoever the president of the Presbyterian Church become the president of all the Protestant churches and represent the evangelicals to the government and currently is a wonderful man that dear friend of mine who heads up the evangelicals for Egypt so that is really the environment which came in so my ancestors all were coptic orthodox until the western missionaries came first the british came

missionaries with cms who came from england on the coattail of the british uh uh you know imperialism and and occupation you know, the British came in the late 1800s and the big fight with the French in Nelson. And so the British became established and established Egypt as a colony. But when CMS missionaries came from England, they did not want necessarily to start a Protestant church. They began to work with the Coptic church, try to reform it and make it a reformed church.

But when the Americans came, they said, that was too slow process for us to reform the church. And they reached the Muslims. So they began Presbyterian churches and followed by the Assemblies of God and the Methodists and so on. So I'm a third generation Protestant or evangelical, but my ancestors all would have been Orthodox. That's amazing. I came to the Lord. Sorry, I took you.

I took so long to answer your question. Well, that's okay. You're proud of your heritage and you should be. That's remarkable. It goes back 2,000 years I love that. That's also happened when you get older you kind of you tell me you ask me what time it is I tell you how to make a watch. But I was rebellious even though my family of eight siblings all loved the Lord. They were older than me. I'm the youngest, and I was the rebellious one. Even though I knew the story that my mother risked her life to have me because she was going to have an abortion,

and the pastor of our church was so disturbed at early hours of the morning of the day of the procedure. He went and said, I know your health is so poor, and you may not have another pregnancy. And if anything happens to me, I have to live with myself. But I believe this boy, he or she is going to serve the Lord. So my mother was an amazing woman of faith. She trusted God and and and had me.

And she lived 16 years after that. And I was so honored to have those 16 years to know her as my prayer warrior. She prayed me into the kingdom, and I came to the Lord finally from my rebellion. On March 4th of 64, she died July of that year. Oh, my goodness. I have so many questions for you about that. But praise the Lord. She saw you come full circle and it was her greatest joy. Yeah. That's, that's amazing. Well, let's,

I appreciate you sharing that. Let's shift to your book and talk about heaven a little bit. One, so one of the biggest objections people have is that heaven is just wish fulfillment it's delusional yes what gives you confidence that when you die you're actually going to heaven and that heaven is real sure here's the difference between me and the two of us and those people who say heaven is delusional okay I can say anything anybody can say anything and we certainly live in that age now. It doesn't matter what they say. It doesn't matter what we say. And that is why I wrote the book. I went back and found out what did God say about heaven and why even the concept of heaven as a place exists.

And why did Jesus have to leave the glories of heaven and come to earth and die on a cross i mean that whole thing is is is is illogical as far as somebody says what is delusional it's a it's a it's a state of mind uh it's a wishful thinking. Well, you can say anything, but can you support what you're saying? I can support what I'm saying. Because when Jesus said, when I go to the Father, I prepare a place for you, topos in Greek, he didn't say I'm going to prepare a delusional place or I'm going to prepare a state of mind. The location, topos is very clearly a word in Greek meaning a location, a physical location. And when Jesus said it's a place, therefore it's a place.

It is not a state of mind. And that's why it's important for us in these days to defend and to explain. Really, most people, I just hate to use the word, ignorant. They don't really know, and they just kind of make up stuff as they go. They said, now, what is the truth? What is the fact? What does the Bible say?

What did God say? And why do we need to know about it? And so, to me, heaven is a place and is described in details, some of it in different books of the bible but i love what our lord jesus christ said i take it from him he co-existed with the father before all worlds and therefore he knows if it's a place or not he knows if it's hell is a place or not and he has seen it all because he pre-existed before the incarnation. And so whatever Jesus said, it is the absolute truth for me, and I accept it completely.

I was speaking at a public school here in California. I was asked, what confidence do I have there's life after death? And I thought of the movie Flatliners, which is like an early 1990s movie where these people die, they were sussed back, and then they come back and tell others what it was like on the other side. It's like Julia Roberts, Kiefer Sutherland. And although it's a fictional movie, it makes sense. If someone's died and gone there and come back, they can tell us what's on the other side. Well, that's what gives Jesus the authority to speak on this if he resurrected, if we have the

words recorded accurately. Now, we're not going to go into that right now. That's a separate conversation. But if that's the case and Jesus speaks to heaven like you make that case here, then heaven is real. Fair enough. Now, let's shift to perhaps the second biggest objection people have is they'll say, well, heaven is just boring. I mean, isn't it conflict that makes life interesting? Isn't it risk that makes life interesting? In heaven, there's neither one of them. Isn't it boring?

Well, this is interesting because Lord Chesbury of England is probably, it's not as well known as William Wilberforce. But really in many ways in his day, Lord Shaftesbury made as much changes in the culture and society, reformation, as anybody in England. And here's what he said. He said, before I really give my life to Christ, I have basically was terrified of going to heaven because I thought heaven would be like a nonstop continuous 11 a.m. service in an Anglican church. I was ordained in the Anglican church. And I could understand. I said, my goodness, you know, if you've ever been to an Anglican boarding, you know, one of those traditional ones, thank goodness many churches have changed now in their life. But yeah, you don't want to go to heaven. That's not the kind of place you want to be sitting there 24-7 going through endless 11 o'clock services. But far from it.

What the Apostle John tells us in Revelation, he was privileged to be taken there to see the incredible excitement and joy and celebration that is going to be absolutely beyond anything that we have even imagined. And we can't, I mean, literally, we can never imagine it. Even Paul said when he was caught in the third heaven, he said, I saw things I can't even talk about, but it is beyond description. And so I tell people, look at the beauty of Yosemite, look at the beauty of creation, look at the ocean, Look at all this beauty. Now, God made it all. Just think of what he has really made for permanent, not for temporary, but for permanent. It would be far more beautiful by a thousand percent than what anything we see on the earth

and the sunrise and the sunset and the beauty of creation that we see around us, multiply that a thousand times and that will be heaven. I was speaking with my students this week in my class at Biola about objective beauty, how we're drawn to things like waterfalls and sunsets and snow-capped mountains and other beautiful things in galaxies. And God is the one who made that. And so if we stop and look at a mountain with a sense of awe, how much more should we at the God who made that, who isn't just making things that are beautiful,

but is beautiful in his character. And we just flourish with beauty. That's what heaven is. Sin is gone, but there's a deep sense of beauty and connection with God and with other people. I think that's at the root of it. So that's well said. Now, you talk about some misconceptions

that people have about heaven. What do you think is one of the biggest misconceptions that Christians have about heaven and how would you think is one of the biggest misconceptions that christians have about heaven and how would you correct it well one of the things is that uh we become angels sometimes i even saw that in among evangelicals and that we become angels and i said no we don't we are above the angels when we get to heaven. The angels will serve us. We're going to be something. In fact, our bodies, according to the Word of God,

that are going to rot in the ground, it's going to be replaced. Our soul will enter into a new body, a glorified body, a body like Jesus' body after the resurrection that knows no limitation, no pain, no suffering, that is absolutely heavenly bodies. And I say that for a reason. We have to have those bodies. The scripture said we will, and I have no doubt about it. But we have to have those bodies because the glory of God, which is the

revelation of his character, we cannot see it with this physical body. We cannot see it in our old flesh and nature. Even in our souls, I have to enter into that new body because Moses couldn't even see the face of God. But the Bible said that we will see the face of God you say well we better than Moses no we're gonna have the glorified bodies so we're able to see what Moses could not see in his human flesh and and so that that is that that is the most magnificent part about it is that we will be transformed ourselves in a way that we will see what nobody could see. But in terms of the incredible, incredible misunderstanding, we inherited the border place and the ceiling is painted and all these little fat baby cherubs,

you know, with wings and I often say, well, I'll leave it. I didn't want to paint over it. It'd be a point of conversation that this is fake understanding, medieval understanding of heaven. We're not going to be sitting on a harp, harping on nothing, but we will be actually working and he said you know that that his saints when they die their work follow them and they will serve him his servants will serve him we will be serving the lord there's going to be we're going

to be reigning and ruling the entire universe with with jesus we're going to be reigning and ruling the entire universe with with jesus we're going to inherit what jesus inherited and therefore the the the the first misunderstanding is that we're going to be lazy sitting there singing all the time now we're going to be praising god i'll be spending the rest of eternity just thanking him for redeeming me for saving me and i think every genuine believer knows that but beyond that we will be working we will be serving we'll be doing things because jesus said my father work and i work there's no lazy bones in in heaven and that's the misconception about heaven or it's a sort of a state of now. It's going to be a time, we're going to be working, we're going to be serving, we're going to be doing things at the command, at the behest of Jesus, but it's not going to be a drudgery,

or I've got to go to work, I've got to, no, no, it's going to be a great joy in serving him in heaven. Of course, God gives us work in Genesis 2 before sin, which means it's a part of what we're made for. And we can all relate to a good day's work where we just feel satisfied and fulfilled and we contributed to something. I think you're right. We will work in heaven. Now, I didn't expect you to say that we'd become angels I hear that but as a pastor someone who's done radio and TV for years that you hear that frequently is really interesting of course there's a teaching of Jesus where he says we'll become like angels in heaven referring to marriage but that's different than becoming angels in heaven no no I had a chance we won't

be married and married and and and and busy with all that stuff yeah exactly I had a chance- You won't be married and busy with all that stuff. Exactly. I had a chance to interview Randy Alcorn about heaven as well. Yes, his book is a classic. It's fantastic. And so people know his book's like 400 pages. I would say yours is more of like an intro to this with some depth to it. Where do we start if we

have misunderstandings? What does the Bible teach? It's a great intro text for people who want to go deeper on heaven. But he talks about one of the biggest misconceptions is that he thinks people have just a spiritual in the sense of non-physical understanding of heaven, that it's not material. And of course, if that's the case, you can't eat food and enjoy it. You can't do the things we do embodied and it's really anti-body view. So let me ask you this and see what this ties into that point where you make a distinction between heaven and the new heavens and the new earth. What is that biblical distinction? Why does it matter? Well, again, it's not my view. It's what the word said, that literally he's going to take a wrecking ball and do away with the current heaven and current earth. And the new heaven and the new

earth is going to be even far more fabulous than the third heaven, which where the believers and where the Lord Jesus Christ is reigning now. That third heaven, you know, the first heaven, of course, is where Satan is still in the domain beyond the visible. But Satan is there. And then the second heaven is the atmospheric the third heaven the bible talks about is that place where our lord jesus christ and the saints are now this is where john was caught into heaven but then john was privileged to see what's going to happen in the future and this new heaven is is way way beyond the current heaven in terms of its beauty and splendor and you know and it could be an entire planet or a group of planets the

description and the and the and the the measurements that the revelation give us which I talk about in the book I I mean, it takes three billion people. I mean, it's a huge place. So I don't know exactly what it's going to be, but it's going to be better than the old heaven and the old earth. Well said. Yeah. Who knows if those measurements are meant to be taken literal or not, but they're surely

showing the beauty and the size of the grandeur of heaven beyond our wildest imaginations. That's the point that I think you're talking about. Exactly. I'm going to ask you to speak to, if non-Christians are watching this. Sure. Maybe the person is a Muslim, maybe the person is agnostic, atheist, whatever. Yeah. Without using scripture, make a case for the beauty or goodness of heaven. And I ask because in the book, when you say what's great about heaven, you're like, Jesus is there. And I say, amen, exactly. But somebody who doesn't have that view is going to be like, that's it. That's not compelling. So what makes heaven so majestic? Explain that to somebody who's

not a follower of Jesus. Right. But even in Islam, and I've written several books on Islam, and I have many Muslim friends, and I love them dearly. You know, they have this idea there's Jannah and there's Jahannam. There's heaven and there's hell. And it sort of stems from a misunderstanding of the scripture on the part of their prophet and paradise you know you hear especially during

terrorism you know they're gonna have 72 virgins and you know we drink wine when they can't drink it here they're just fantasy stuff and in reality you got to take the word of the one who was there who made it who knows what it's like and when he tells you about it not what others think of it or misunderstood the the concept of it so here here's the point we were created by God in the image of God, not just to live this life and then die, and that's the end. Some of my Jewish neighbors and friends, and I love them dearly, and I'll talk with them all the time.

They said, well, when you die, that's it. I said, there's no way. Now, there was a time when we were not, but there will never be a time when we will not be, because God created us for immortality. The question is, where are you going to spend that eternity? And look, I am not one of those people who grabbed people by the neck and said, you repent or otherwise. No, I think God loves us and respects us enough. When he made us, he gave us a choice.

Now, here's what I would love for you to do. Come to me and I will transform your life here and now. And I will guarantee you eternity in heaven with me. Or you can reject me. But remember the consequences. And then Jesus goes in to show us what that is like even before his death and resurrection and he said there was lazarus and there's a rich man well the idea of a rich man back then it's not because he was wealthy but is that he was

self-centered he was self-focused and a man right at his door literally suffering and he paying no attention to him. But this man was godly. The other one is not. And so when they both died, they went to these different places. One went to the place of torment and suffering and the other one went to the place of, back then in the Old Testament, they understood it as the bosom of Abraham. The bosom of Abraham is where paradise is. That's

at least in the Jewish mind. And so Jesus did not contradict that. He said, when Lazarus went to the bosom of Abraham, what happened to that so-called rich man or self-centered man, as soon as he got to the place of suffering, what did he become? An evangelist. Next to the suffering that he was experiencing and the fire in his tongue, wanting Lazarus to dip his finger in water and cool his tongue, immediately after that he said when he knew he this is his fate he never one time said hey i got a raw deal god you're not fair how can you bring me here i'll be a good man i might have given ten dollars one day and no because in eternity we're going to see that everyone who will end up in the place of torment is going to know he said i belong here i came here by my own feet because i rejected

christ and they're going to see it that way they're not not going to accuse god of unfairness or injustice because they will see it from that perspective and but the next thing he did he became an evangelist please send lazarus let him rise from the dead that my five brothers would hear the message and not come to this place of torment he become an evangelist William Booth the founder of Salvation Army used to say I don't need all these theological courses for my officers all I need for them to be on fire for Christ is five minutes in hell. And to become an evangelist.

And that's what this man did. Jesus tells us because Jesus was there. Jesus knew this happened. Jesus witnessed it. And therefore he's telling us a story, not a parable, of something that he has known. And therefore he's saying, please respond. Come.

You know, I tell people, people you know it was interesting trump one time in his campaign many years ago the first time he said asking people particularly african-americans to come and support him he said what have you got to lose you know i don't want to get into politics because i'm not into politics at all but I'm saying what have you got to lose hmm what have you got to lose you're gonna lose guilt and shame and and and pain and suffering and depression you're gonna have peace here and now joy in knowing Christ and then an assurance and guarantee of eternity in heaven with Jesus hmm if a person who does not believe and having a problem believing, all I would say is just take him at his word.

Trust what he says. Read it. And then if you reject it, that's fine. See, in Islam, you're supposed to, the jihad basically is their evangelism and they say that jihad is that you convert you try to convert person by persuading him orally if he doesn't listen you make it hard for him if he doesn't listen you can beat him up and if he doesn't finally if he doesn't refuse to listen you kill him so that's the uh idea jihad but for us evangelism is nothing like that is it is out of love for people out of it is like was it deal moody who said

it's a beggar telling a beggar where to get food and and so any of your wonderful viewers who might not really sure, might not be, just all I'm asking you to do, open your mind, open your mind, and be aware of the fact that there is someone who loves you more than anybody in this world. And he showed his love by dying on that cross in order to offer you that opportunity for salvation to come to him as I said not only that this

life will be transformed for the good I've been walking with the Lord since 1964 60 years almost well actually it's a little over 60 years I have not one day in the worst and the darkest of moments in my life and i've been through a lot i wrote a whole book on it um i've ever regretted coming to christ believing in christ trusting in christ because how can you regret something that's the best thing going to happen to you and so i would love to invite anybody who's watching us right now to really consider this as an invitation from Christ. Come, come and believe in me. And therefore, you will have an assurance of eternal life with him in heaven.

But you're right. I mean, heaven is heaven because of Jesus. Because wherever Jesus goes, it's heaven. And everything else that goes with it, it's because of the person of Jesus. It seems like when we talk about the beauty of heaven, we could talk about just what we are made for and the good things in this world, relationships, beauty, et cetera, that fulfill our deepest hearts. We experience those in heaven. Or we could talk about who Jesus is and why he's such a captivating person.

And then when somebody understands what he's done for us, then they would want to go to heaven. It seems like in principle you could take either of those two routes now that I'm somewhat thinking out loud. But let me jump to this question. You have a chapter on the benefits of heaven. Now, of course, the Christian view of heaven is not real because it has benefits. There are false things that have benefits in life. I'm sure somebody could say an Islamic view of heaven has certain benefits. So I'm not saying it's true because it has benefits. You list eight in your book, maybe just one or two that jumped to your mind that you think are distinctly Christian that you would consider benefits of heaven. Well, there are several, of course, in knowing that the resurrection, our body will be resurrected is one thing and be assured of that.

Paul said absence from the body, presence with the Lord. And in 1 Corinthians 15, it's a long, complicated chapter, but basically says when we go to heaven, our souls go to heaven. We're not going to be floating naked souls but we will be closed with heavenly bodies um and that you know the benefit of heaven is you know you're experiencing the love and the mercy of god every day the grace of god i mean i i i just i i you know i'm uh some of my congregation probably call me the weeping preacher because in public, there are invariably I lose it. And in my younger years, that used to really bother me that I have no control. And I went away and fasted and prayed.

And I kind of sense the Lord to be saying, if I dry your tears, this is over 35 years ago, I will freeze your heart. And I said, Lord, forget it. Okay, I don't mind. Now, I don't care. But I get very emotional to think about the mercy and the grace of God that's shown to me. That is overwhelming all the time for me. No matter where I am, if I ever start talking about the grace of God and his mercy toward me. And that is another benefit of heaven. And the other thing is it makes life meaningful. My life makes a lot of sense. A lot of people live lives and they have no meaning in life. They have no purpose in life but heaven and and the and the very thought of heaven makes

this life meaningful to me and in fact I have a another one of the benefits is that and I've traveled I was born in Egypt was trained in seminary in Australia more college at Sydney University I was ordained in Sydney, actually. It's right downtown in St. Andrews. I served in a parish there. And so I become an Austrian. My wife is an Aussie. We married 53 years ago.

And so we become an Australian. But then I came to the U.S. and I became a U.S. citizen in 1984. And so I know what it is like, what citizenship means. Probably more than the person who was born here and never really moved around. So to say that we are citizens of heaven, that our citizenship is in heaven, it transform and it transmit and it it trans plant everything that i uh experience right

here even though i'm a faithful steward of my citizenship in america i love this country i vote i thank god every day for its heritage and i pray one day we'll turn back to the lord he may in his mercy may give us a third awakening. But at the same time, I'm at peace inside no matter what happens, because my real citizenship is in heaven. And I have that passport. It's stamped with the blood of Jesus. And so that's another benefits of heaven. I call it the citizenship of heaven uh it's it's sort of like my id card and so there are so many benefits here and now for heaven that it makes this life not what people say bearable no joyful uh you know my wife and i were talking about an issue just a few hours ago, and she was so concerned and worried about it.

I said, honey, what are you worried about? We're going to heaven. And it doesn't matter. The Lord gave, the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord. So you have that incredible confidence and peace in this life because of that heaven citizenship. You and I were chatting a little bit before about how just some of the great in this life because of that heaven citizenship. You and I were chatting a little bit before about how just some of the great Christian leaders who've even in recent years passed away, many of them suffered a lot.

And it's not like if you follow the Lord, you don't have to suffer. In fact, you might even suffer more. Exactly. Now, one reason I bring that up is about a year ago people who follow my channel know i went through just three months of the worst pain i've been through and one thing that changed in me is i i don't know why but i there were times where i really i didn't feel like i could trust god but all i could pray is god i, I want you to get me to the point where I can trust you. That's where I was, to be honest, and God got me there.

But it changed me in a lot of ways. In one way, it's like you described, just when I think about heaven, when I think about grace, I just sometimes randomly get teary-eyed in a way I didn't before. Do you think, God, do you think we need to suffer to some degree to really appreciate and value heaven the way we're supposed to? Or is that just a weakness of me and others who can't just see it for what it is? Sure. No, you and I were talking earlier about the suffering of the Christians overseas, and so many people I know personally who were persecuted in severest of ways, and that is why they're focused more on heaven than we do here in the West. And I think the Lord permits this to remind us that we are flesh and that we are passing,

and that our eternity is heaven, and we need to focus on it and not take our mind and become idolaters, because there really is a problem for many evangelicals. We have become idolaters. We've focused so much on this and that and wealth. I mean, look, people are only preaching that if you come to Jesus, you become wealthy. I mean, you know, when you think about it, it's totally contradictory.

But I often say that suffering and believing, the cross showed us this. The cross showed us that love and suffering are not contradictory. It is because he loved us, he suffered on the cross showed us that love and suffering are not contradictory it is because he loved us he suffered on the cross and often i say suffering the cross teaches that that suffering and love because he loved us he suffered and sometimes out of love we suffer not always but sometimes and therefore I really believe and you know we've been through a lot I you know and I remember in one week literally back when my eldest daughter who's 50 now was 15 and hovering between life and death on the life support in an emergency room, hospital. And the week after that, my wife went in for cancer surgery.

You know, and I was just saying, Lord, I don't know what you're trying to do, but teach me to act just the way you said, to completely trust you with all of this. And he did. He said, I had to completely trust you with all of this. And he did. He said, yes. As a matter of fact, as a result of this, I wrote a book called Empowered by Praise. Because what the Lord did in the middle of those horrendous weeks, and really were a few weeks, the Lord taught me to praise him in the middle of suffering. And so I wrote a book about it how to praise God

in the middle of suffering empowered by praise because that came out of that crucible of experience that we went through earlier on before that I can go back to my in my own biography book trust and obey when I was literally trapped in this social socialist dictatorship in Egypt. I'm trying to escape with my life. Instead, I almost lost my life. And I remember that moment when my life was just I'm hovering between life and death at the age of 19.

And it's like sand in my mouth. And I was shaking like a leaf. The most powerful man in the country telling me that I'm going to disappear and nobody will know where I am. Now I'm trying to escape from the country. But the supernatural hand of God intervened and got me out. And so you come through all these experiences and you say, the God who delivered me here, who delivered me here, who delivered me here, he'll deliver me now. And if he doesn't, it's like the Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

They said, we're not going to obey you. God will deliver us. But if he doesn't, that's fine, too. You know, I always say, if he takes me to glory, what's the worst he can do to me? Kill me? My goodness, they're going to give me the best life ever. And so suffering at that point becomes really a gateway to look into the portals of heaven with anticipation. So you, again, you've known my dad for years, and my sister went to school with your son. But is this the first time the

two of us have talked and i followed your ministry for a while aware of you you strike me as someone who has the gift of faith amid suffering i'm going to praise jesus and that's a gift i don't think god's given me that gift i have the gift i'm skeptical i ask questions it drives me to research and try to figure things out and that's a gift but also can be a burden sometimes. And I know a lot of people watching my channel are just, they have questions. believe this, but help my unbelief. Someone who says it just doesn't seem to come as easy and natural to me as it apparently does to you. And correct me if I'm wrong on that, but encourage a Christian who just says, I want to believe this, but it's hard for me and I'm struggling. Well, I reminded him, I said, it doesn't always been like this for me. I've struggled in my early years of walking with Christ. That's very important.

I'm I always tell the congregation, I said, you know, I come clean with you. I never give you all this, you know, sanctimonious stuff. And, you know, there was a time when I struggled in that. And I said, God, where are you? And you know what? There's nothing wrong with that. God, I'm going to fall off his throne when you ask him, where is he? and i said god where are you and you know what there's nothing wrong with that god is not going to fall off his throne when you ask him where is he or when you ask why are you doing this

even jesus on the cross said why all the saints of all said why and there's nothing wrong with that as far as i'm concerned as far as the scriptures can say as my understanding scripture's concerned as my understanding of scripture is concerned nothing wrong with asking why and again i always say you know uh some of the saints of old and i have to um have prayed some sorry prayers we really have enough and the great joy about this for me now at this stage in my life is that god is so wonderful it's so amazing that he doesn't say how can you do this how can you say this how can you doubt me no he comes in and he embraces you said i understand i understand and and and and and jesus says i i asked on the cross why have you forsaken me why and so don't as a hesitate to ask why it's not uh god is going to be indignant or he's going to fall off his throne no no no no no these are the things of the human nature the way it is and god takes us through them and he grows us up and takes us to the next level and

the next level and the next level the sad part is as a pastor is when I see people repeating first grade over and over and over again this is the first grade of faith. But the Lord allowed these things to happen so he can gradually grow us up into the full stature of Christ. And if you saw me, even 30 years ago, I was not where I am now. Why? I'm growing in grace. I'm going and strengthening my faith. I always tell people faith is a muscle, literally, the best way I can describe it. And at my age, by the way, I work out with weights. I work out with a trainer. And I exercise all the five days a week.

And so I know all about muscles and the pain and your growing of your muscles. And it's not the first week. It's not the second week. It's not the third week. It's going to keep on going. But it's going to, after a while, you looking and say oh i got some muscles here that's what faith is you keep exercising it and you keep uh extending it and you keep growing and the muscles will tear then you grow the new tear will grow and that's why it's called the process of sanctification salvation is an instant but sanctification takes

a lifetime that's great that's that's really helpful this question i asked you in some ways before about i'm going to frame it differently rather than the biggest confusion christians have i'd be curious what you think is satan's biggest lie about heaven and i'll give some context that i i think that primarily satanic attacks are not possessing people but subtle lies and distortions of the truth yeah and i think it was the beginning of randy alcorn's book where he talked about you know if satan can convince people that heaven is boring for example then why would you suffer for it why would you live for it it makes no difference in your life and so got me thinking well some is big slides for about heaven so what do you

think is maybe just one of the top lies that Satan has perpetrated about heaven well before even that the greatest lie is that he doesn't exist you see that is the greatest lie um the the former chief justice of the supreme court's calia gave an interview to a reporter and um and and he talked about about satan and she was asking him you do you? You believe and say? He said, yes, of course I do. And he went on to explain to her. And he said, I also believe in hell and heaven. And it's an amazing interview if you can get hold of it. But if he convinces people that he doesn't exist, then these thoughts that that are evil thoughts that he brings to their mind to doubt god to doubt heaven to doubt all these things it's going to be more

real so it's not he's not to be blamed for it once he convinced him he doesn't exist and you know we're seeing it today uh but i'm let me tell you give part of my testimony again i don't want all your viewers think that i'm a sanctimonious guy after i gave my life to christ and i was walking strong i was witnessing to everybody my life was so transformed the whole town knew it and yet a year later satan brought a lie to me and said, if God really loves you, why did he take your mother at the age of 16? Why did he take? She's the only one. I have seven siblings, all the siblings.

But she was really them. And they're all busy, big, busy, their lives. And she was the only one who was my prayer warrior who was you know a person that meant everything to me on this earth how can god love you and i fell for it and that's why i want folks to know that you know it's not always in a straight line there is there's stumbling along the way and i stumbled the worst 18 months of my life, again, until God intervened supernaturally and showed me his hand in such a powerful, marvelous way that I snapped out of it, asked for his forgiveness, and I dedicated my life.

I said, I remember the place where I was standing at that time, and I said, I go anywhere, I do anything. I'm yours. And from that day on again, it's just there's some struggles along the way. But nonetheless, the more you walk with him, the more you see his hand, the more you trust him. It doesn't mean that I'm not going to face some tough times or some questions until the time I go to glory.

But even so, when those times come, I'll be trusting Him more than I did 10 years ago. I love the idea of seeing faith as a muscle that makes so much sense that you grow and develop. And the key is not to compare yourself to somebody else, but just to where you were and are you making progress? And if so, God's grace covers the rest. I think a freeing way to look at it. I could see that being powerful. That's a natural question. Why did God take my mother when you're only 16 years old? That's a powerful, real question that caused 18 months of suffering. So I appreciate you sharing about that. One last question, if I may.

What do you think specifically keeps people out of heaven? Why don't people go? Well, there are a lot of reasons, of course. But the main thing, what keeps people out of heaven is their refusal to believe that Jesus is the only Savior and Lord. That was it. I mean, in reality, the scripture said many times in Revelation, particularly those who washed their robes in the blood of the lamb well another kind of semitic way of saying comments to the point of saying i can't save myself i can't redeem myself i need a savior and christ says i i am your savior i died for you my blood was shed so that you can accept it.

You see, heaven is a perfect place. OK, so only perfect people have to go to heaven. OK, only perfect people will go to heaven. How do I, the imperfect, go to heaven? By holding on to the curtail of Jesus or the Bible in the theologians call it the righteousness of Jesus is imputed on us and so when God the Father looks at us he doesn't see me with all of my muck and and failure and and and clay feet but he see me as but he said how can he see me and I'm more conscious of my own failures and sin than everybody else how can he see me righteous because he see me through the prism of Jesus he sees Jesus now I'm right behind him and that's he's covering me completely and those are the people who are gonna make it to

heaven but if you say God on my own I'm gonna give are going to make it to heaven. But if you say, I'll do it on my own. I'm going to give enough money to get me to heaven. I'm going to let my good deeds outweigh my bad deeds. I'm going to do this because my father was a Presbyterian and my mother was a Methodist or this Calathampian. No, no, no, no. Every individual has to come to the point of saying, I repent of my sins I realize that I cannot make it on my own I cannot be saved without Jesus and so

come to the Father confessing a sin and then come on Jesus's curtail those are the ones who are going to make it to heaven I love you choose not to mmm now there's a lot more you cover in your book in some ways we just scratched the surface but when people ask me for kind of a heaven 101 what is it like what is it not like what does the bible say your book heaven awaits will be the first one that i will recommend i think it's a great kind of primer so to speak to start with and then someone goes okay this book is a what is 190 pages I want a 400 page book then you get Randy Alcorn's book on heaven level they really build on top of each other well

so thanks for writing really a helpful interesting book thanks for coming on sharing your story about your family some of your own struggles and journey and just for joining me I really like for taking the time how can people follow you and your ministry apart from getting the book well on the social media handle at Michael Youssef at Michael Youssef and Twitter and Facebook and all that but LTW is the easiest way LTW leading the way is just the three letters,.org. And there you get all the resources, all the material, all the things that they're going to find a lot of stuff there

that I have done through the years, have written and preached. Of course, I've preached about, I guess, 1,450 sermons through the years, and they're all archived and whatever topic you want to go and listen. And I'm so grateful to the Lord for, you know, the hundreds of thousands of people in the United States and the 10 million people who watch us weekly. We have a television station in Arabic. It's a kingdom set, Malakot, in Arabic. In fact, one day I dreamed of having your dad on there.

I said, he would be the best. But, you know, circumstances change. But we have several Westerners on it. But 60 different Arabic-speaking people. So it's in 260 million homes and that channel switches automatically live to the church of the apostles every Sunday

and so we know on the average probably 10 million people watching on the regular basis and so I am absolutely indebted to God I have nothing for myself to offer except the Lord Jesus Christ, His salvation, eternal life. And so thank you for asking. LTW.org will give me a lot of material,

a lot of information, and a lot of stuff that can help you grow. All free. We have an app. Download all the material I'm talking about, all all for free because we're here to serve the Lord and serve the body of Christ. Check out Heaven Awaits and LTW.org. I wasn't aware of the reach in Arabic. That's incredible. That's so encouraging. May God just bless you and give you favor with that. That's fantastic. Before you click away, folks, make sure you hit subscribe. We've got some other conversations and discussions coming up you will not want to miss. If you thought about studying apologetics and probing into this in some depth, join me at Bayou University at Talbot. We've got a master's program in apologetics. Information is below, fully distanced, top rated. Would love to have you in class. Michael, you've been generous with your time, so I know I got to let you go, but thanks so much for coming on. It is my greatest joy. It is my greatest joy to be with you. Thank you so much for having me.