The Sean McDowell Show - What the Bible REALLY Says about Animals in Heaven

Episode Date: October 6, 2026

Will our pets be in heaven? Do animals have souls? Will there be hunting, fishing, and meat eating on the new earth? Might some animals talk? Randy Alcorn wrote the book that shaped how a lot of us picture the afterlife, and he says the question people ask him most isn't about streets of gold or what our resurrection bodies will be like. It's about animals. His new book is All God's Creatures: What the Bible Says About Animals, Heaven, and the New Earth, and he came down to Talbot to talk it through with me. READ: All God’s Creatures: What the Bible Says About Animals, Heaven, and the New Earth by Randy Alcorn (https://a.co/d/0cA2sDJ2) CHECK OUT: Logos Bible 60 Day Free Trial (https://logos.com/mcdowell) CHECK OUT: Consider Supporting the Ministry! (https://seanmcdowell.org/give) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [smdcertdisc] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org 0:00 Intro 1:08 Why he wrote a book about animals 2:25 What do you mean by "heaven"? 5:55 Isaiah 11 and animals at peace 7:42 Christoplatonism and a misconception of the afterlife 12:30 Does God care about animals? 16:44 Animals in the life of Jesus 18:31 The longest monologue in the Bible 23:11 Do animals have souls? 28:10 Romans 8 and a groaning creation 29:43 Restoration of all things 31:17 Will our pets be on the new earth? 37:40 Might animals talk? 41:43 Oceans and sea creatures 48:52 Why does God allow animals to suffer? 50:51 Hunting, fishing, and meat eating 54:30 What surprised him most Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

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Tell me why this is controversial. Man, I deeply respect, not going to mention his name, who definitively says there are no animals in heaven, none. Which to me just struck me as so strange because what about Isaiah 11? The knowledge of the Lord will be everywhere. Animals will be at peace with each other, predators with prey. The wolf will live with the lamb. Job is supposed to learn from...

the animals, how great he is. Now, I think we've gone a long ways away. A lot of us have just lost touch with the animal world and God's greatness as displayed in animals. Will our pets be in heaven? Do animals have souls? Will there be hunting, fishing, and meat eating on the new earth? Might some animals talk on the new earth?

These are a few of the questions. We're going to explore with our guest today, Randy Alcorn, who's author of the mega best-selling book, Heaven, but as a new book coming out, is called All God's Creatures, what the Bible says about animals, heaven, and the new earth. Randy, thanks for coming down to Biola Talb School theology to talk with me in person. Great to be with you, Sean. So my question right away, you emailed me and you kindly asked me to endorse it, read it, happy to do so, endorse it enthusiastically. But in the back of my mind was like, why is Randy Alcorn writing a book on animals in heaven.

Connect those dots for us. Well, having written the big book on heaven and having a lot of people read it and ask questions, I mean, constantly, emails, texts, phone calls, whenever I speak somewhere, they're asking questions about heaven. But the question most asked is about animals. It's about animals in the Bible, and will there be animals on the new earth?

earth, and if there are animals on the new earth, might our pets be among them? And this question just comes up all the time. That's so interesting. I was just on a college campus two days ago, and I get questions a lot. And animals come up sometimes. But is it like by far questions on heaven? Like animals in a category of its own, that's what troubles people? Yeah. And I would say, in some cases, the reason they're troubled is they have heard some pretty definitive dogmatic statements. Got it. That there will be no animals in heaven.

And one of the things I say to people is you have to define what you mean by heaven. If heaven is a disembodied state, if you're talking about the pre-resurrection state, then for animals, that would be like purgatory to not have bodies, you know, to be disembodied. I mean, because animals love to sniff things and scratch things. and lick things. Run on the ground, yes, and we won't get into all the things they do. But the point is, it's like that's their nature. That's what they are.

We are more physical than we would like to believe. I mean, I'm not sure that it makes any sense to think in terms of people long term in a disembodied state because God made us human beings created in his image. And part of that was he took that body that was on the ground and he breathed the breath of life into it and he became a soul, a living being. And I think we're that two-part nature. Animals are that two-part nature, especially sentient animals, you know, those that are self-aware, can feel pain and all that. So yeah, I mean, I think it's a question that's on a lot of people's minds, but I think if you're thinking of a disembodied state, it makes no sense for animals. It doesn't

make that much sense for people either. But the Bible promises resurrection for people, but it promises a resurrected earth, a brand new earth. Now when you're talking about a new earth and God bringing heaven down to that new earth so that it is heaven on earth, literally. You read that in Revelation 21, 22, the throne of God. God will dwell there on the new earth with his people. Well, what's heaven? Heaven is where God dwells with his people. Heaven is where the throne of God is. Well, that's where we're going to live forever, and that's called a new earth. Well, what does earth consist of?

Well, it consists of people, but that's not all it consists of. It consists of physical things, you know, trees, flowers, lakes, rivers, and it consists of animals. So then it would be weird to have animals in a disembodied state. it would be weird to not have animals on a new earth. Oh, I love this. And by the way, your passion coming through is fun. We're talking before about how you've had a ton of animals in your life, fascinated by animals. But it really was your book, Heaven, and we're going to get into this, that made me for the first time realize how animals are quite literally in the Bible from beginning to end and like a thread that goes through all of Scripture.

I don't know how I had missed that. Now, before we get into some of this, you did kindly email and you said, Sean, if you don't have time or the inclination to endorse this, I understand it's kind of a controversial book. Tell me why this is controversial. Well, one reason is there are – I actually start in the first chapter and talk about a man I deeply respect, not going to mention his name, but who definitively numbers of times and questions and answers at – His church, Bible teaching church, definitely says there are no animals in heaven, none. And there's not even a possibility of it, which to me just struck me is so strange because what about Isaiah 11 and, you know, like nine, ten different species of animals that are said to live on the earth at a time when the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of Yahweh as the waters cover the sea. The knowledge of the Lord will be everywhere, and animals will be at peace with each other, predators with prey. You know, some of the ones that are mentioned, the wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion, the yearling together, and a little child will lead them. A cow will feed with the bear.

Well, so far, we've got the four major predators in Israel, and their major prey lined up together, and they're living at peace with each other. And then the infant will play near the Coburn's den. The young child will put its hand into the vipers' nest. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. Well, what do you think this is talking about? Now, some people restricted to the millennium. They think, well, for a thousand of your kingdom, but then you go, but in the millennium, it's going to end in rebellion. It's going to end in people being cast into the lake of fire.

I mean, so this is not the earth is yet filled with the knowledge of Yahweh as the waters cover the sea because there's still sin. There's still rebellion in the world. But on the new earth, which it perfectly fits with, everything's going to be restored to the beauty and the goodness. And it will be a glorified Eden, a global Eden. and of course animals would be part of it, and this passage specifically says so. Now, one of the thing, this is a great quote in your book that jumped out to me. You said the biggest obstacle to people believing in an animal afterlife is that their concept of the afterlife is misguided. So it starts with the afterlife, and then if you have a misguided understanding there, of course it's going to filter down to the animal afterlife.

And you have this term, by the way, that I love, called Christo-Platon. And I'm working separately on a book on a theology of the body in the area of sexuality. And we have in the evangelical Protestant church, we make things so spiritual and Gnostic. We miss the body. You're concerned with that in a broader sense. And that's a part of the misconception of heaven, isn't it? Absolutely. And if you think what the resurrection means, it means that the way God created us was not a mistake.

He's not going to abandon his concept of what it means to be a human being. We are told that if there is no resurrection, we Christians of all people, are most to be pitied. Why? Because we've devoted ourselves to the Lord and to his world and the way he has made us and his plan for the ages. We act sometimes as if when the fall takes place in Genesis 3 that the devil ends up really having a major victory over God, one that God's kingdom will never recover from because the God who wanted Adam and Eve to have dominion over the earth, the animals, and to be fruitful and multiply, but it all went bad. And since it all went bad, the best God can do now is to send us up to

heaven to live there forever with the angels. And so sorry, his plan for Earth is over. No. The Bible teaches there will be a new earth, a redeemed earth, a reconciled earth, a restored earth, all these rewords that are used again and again in scripture. That is the promise he has for us. And you can see this, Sean, when you just look at the way we talked about the afterlife, because look at bucket lists. So why do people, why do Christians have bucketless? Well, because this life is the one chance we have to really do this fun thing, to do this exhilarating thing, to climb a mountain, to go diving if you've never done that before, to go do this, to ride a horse if you've never ridden a horse before. Because we won't have opportunities like that. Why?

Because we'll be disembodied spirits in an angelic realm forever. That's not what the Bible teaches. And so what the Bible does teach is there will be this new earth. The restoration of what was lost in the fall will be regained. And look at Jesus, his resurrection body, and we're told our bodies will be like his. And what was his body like? He eats and drinks with the disciples repeatedly. And he says, you know, touch me, handle me.

Look at the scars on my hands. and feed. This is a real body. And he ate with them and the, and the food didn't fall through the ground, right? Because he had a real body. We will have a real body. We will eat and drink with him on the new earth and with each other. So now, if you get that straight in your mind that we're living on an actual redeemed earth, then it would be not, why would there be animals? It would be, why would there not be animals? Of course there would be animals, even if the Bible didn't specifically say so, but Isaiah 11 and Isaiah 65 specifically say so. In fact, I think you're right.

At the beginning of your book on heaven, we have a quote. I forget the particulars about how one of Satan's greatest strategies is to just confuse us about heaven and gut us from the beauty and excitement and thrill of what heaven will be like. And of course, the folks that we're talking about today is the question of animals and whether they will be there or not. So before we get into some specifics that I open this with, maybe give us a 30,000-foot view perspective. How does God view animals?

Does the Bible teach that God cares about animals? It does. In fact, look at the life of Jesus, and he's talking about the sparrows, the fall from the sky. And not one of those sparrows falls from the sky without God paying attention. And he's not simply saying, I'm omniscient. And so because I know everything, I see the... those sparrows fault. No, there's a tenderness in what he's saying. He's looking at that sparrow falling from the sky with a heart of a God who didn't create the world with death in mind, even though he knew

it was going to come, of course, because he knows everything. But we need to understand that the animal kingdom fell under us. And so the animal kingdom is under our dominion. So on the coattails of our fall that related in our suffering and death, like, the animal kingdom suffers and dies. It's not disconnected. See the connection in the flood, which is another example of a really critical passage that is, I mean, Genesis 6 through 9,

the amount of tension that's given to the flood is huge. And animals are huge in Genesis 1, and then they become huge again in Genesis 6 through 9, where not only is Noah and his family saved, and rescued from the flood, but animals are, but not just a few animals, animals of every single species are brought on to the ark. And God cares enough about them. And then the ones where there's going to be sacrificial animals, seven pairs of them

to allow enough time to sacrifice them and then over generations for them to multiply. And so we look at that. And then in that same passage in Genesis 9, he 11 times mentions all living creatures. So we have humans, but then we have all living creatures. And then he says, I make an eternal covenant with them. And it's the Hebrew word alarm, which is routinely used of just forever and ever. So forever and ever for people. And then there's an eternal covenant that he has, not just with Noah and his family, but with all living creatures, which makes you think, now, okay, it's nice that every time you see a rainbow, it's a reminder that God is not going to destroy the world by water again.

But if that's all that it means, it's like, well, yeah, but you'll be destroyed by everything else, you know, and that's the end of it. Or is he really saying that God has a provision in mind that doesn't only extend to human beings, but that animals will also be able to live on a new and redeemed earth one day? And I think it does extend to that. So if the question is, does God care about animals? We go back to Genesis. We see at the beginning in the garden pre-fall state, they're a part of just this paradise that God makes. He saves animals through the flood, which you described 11 times all creatures.

Now, if we jumped ahead to Revelation, we could have some very interesting insights about the new heaven and the new earth and just how many just nations and states are depicted through animals. But of course, the big question is related to Jesus. Hey, listeners, it's Kelly from Life Audio. We know life gets busy. and sometimes it's easy for your faith to get pushed to the side. That's why we created the good word, a free weekly newsletter designed to give you a moment to slow down, be encouraged, and reconnect with what matters most, God's Word.

Inside, you'll find devotionals, guided prayers, podcast recommendations, and other faith-filled content we think you'll love. No ads, no clutter. Just good content to help you stay rooted in God's Word throughout your week. Sign up for the good word today at life audio.com forward slash the good word. That's life audio.com forward slash the good word. So if we were to like separate out how Jesus viewed animals or how animals fit in the life of Jesus and his ministry, what would you say? Well, his birth.

So his birthplace, you know, this is a barn that has a manger, that's a feeding truck. Okay. There were animals there. I mean, otherwise the trough would make no sense, right? The manger would make no sense. Fair enough. And so we don't know what animals were there, but certainly probably, you know, cows, sheep, goats, you know, whatever that people had. Okay. So they're there. I mean, they're there to witness it before the shepherds. And certainly long before the wise men were there, the animals were there. Well, now that doesn't make it. You know, what do you? What do you? What do you? you trying to say that the animals were essential to the birth of G? Of course not. They're just part of this world, this human world and animal world that we share in together. And they're present. God didn't have to have him present. He chose to have him present. Then later, Jesus in the temptation. Mark is the gospel writer who speaks about this. And interesting because that's the shortest gospel. And yet he's the one that mentions that in the temptation, Jesus was out there with the wild animals. Now, we don't even, that's not even developed.

What, what happened? Why is he even mentioning the wild animals? And I think it's pretty easy to envision him out there like Daniel in the lion's den just with an ability to be at peace. Interesting. With nature. And that's speculation. Sure. That's fair. But, you know, but I think it's, it fits. But then you have the other things he says again about. sparrows and all that. God does love animals. He does care for them. And in fact, you've got Psalm 104, this whole psalm about, you know, a lot of animals in there, sea creatures and all that. You look in the book of Job, and I was talking to somebody just the other day at another conference I was at and saying, hey, and this is a person who knows the Bible very well and

said, hey, what do you think in all of the Bible? What is the longest monologue by far? in which is just God talking. Not God talking through a prophet, not God talking through an apostle, just God talking. And the answer is, almost four chapters in the book of Job. What are those chapters about?

Well, the first 20% of those chapters, and it would be, what, 38, 39, 40, 41, maybe into slightly into 42. Okay, so you got, he's talking, at first just about the wonders of his creation, but then 80% of what he says in those four chapters is about animals. He's talking about eagles. He's talking about ostriches. He's talking about ostriches. He's taught, and some of them are kind of bizarre, funny animals, you know, and then

he goes on about the horse. And he goes on in, what is it, chapter 39, about the horse and talking about the magnificence of the horse. And have you ever seen the movie, Secretariat? The beginning of secretary and the end of secretary are quotations from Job. And one time I met the director of that movie, who's a believer. And he says, yeah, I put that in there because I went, it just captures it. God is proud of the horse. You read that and you go, I mean, he just eats up the ground is one of the translations. He eats up the ground.

His speed and his pride and his going into better. battle and all that. God is kind of boasting about the horse that he's made. Then you got Bahameth and you've got Leviathan. Again, in the book I get into what those might be. But the point is, Job's questions are about why has God allowed him to suffer so much? At the end of it, Job goes, I repent, duscloth, and ashes, and I'm, you know, God, you were right. And, and And I was wrong. And God says, no, you've been righteous, Job, and now God is defending him. It's your friends that, you know, now I want you to pray for them, you know, and all that.

But the remarkable thing is that God has talked to him about animals and his magnificence as displayed in the animals. Job is supposed to learn from the animals how great he is. Now, I think we've gone a long ways away from that. I think because we're so detached from the animal, most of us, I mean, anybody who lives in the city other than seeing people walk a dog or whatever, and there might be a cat or something, but you don't even see horses very much in cities anymore. It used to be more. But, I mean, if you're out in the country, maybe you're seeing animals a lot. I was raised in the country, but I wasn't raised on a farm.

And I think a lot of us have just lost touch with the animal world and God's greatness as displayed in animals. That's such a good point. And I love where you started with the person of Jesus. You think about his birth, his baptism. Of course, the Holy Spirit comes down like a dove. A dove. His temptation. The teachings that Jesus gave.

I mean, it's everywhere through all four gospels like a drumbeat about his animals. I had on Peter Singer maybe, I don't know, maybe six, eight months ago. Did you? It was a great conversation. One of the leading philosophical atheists for the half century. Oh, yeah, knowing well, and I love your program, but I missed that one. Well, of course, he's really led some of the animal liberation movement. And it was pretty cool to be able to say, you know, you go back to the Old Testament.

And it's like a Sabbath is required for animals. Right. You know, there's passages, I think maybe it's a proverb that talks about you can judge a man's character by how, he cares for his animals. Christians always haven't done this, but it's a part of God's good creation, and it's in there if we'd follow it. All right, so let's get to some of the controversial questions. And in fact, I told my co-host, Scott Ray, who, you know, he was hoping to be here today, could

not be here. I said, I have Randy Alcorn on to talk about animals. He goes, make sure you ask him this question. Okay. Because Scott Ray has written a book with J.P. Morlin on The Soul. So he goes, ask Randy, what does he think about? Do animals have souls? I think the definite answer is yes.

Now, at least some animals, at least sentient, higher animals, you know, animals, self-aware, feel pain, all of that. And here's how we know this. The Hebrew word nefesh is a word that is translated soul when it's used of human beings early in Genesis. So he became a soul, a living soul of Adam and Eve. They're called souls, nefesh. Now, exactly the same word and exactly the same context when it's used of animals is usually translated. They became living creatures. Now, the old translation say souls.

So like Wycliffe, Tyndale, they said souls back then because it's the same word. Right. That's fascinating. But in the modern era, it seemed to sound a little weird to people to say souls because it would imply that animals and people were equals. Well, they're not equals. But there are animals, souls, and there are people's souls. And so somebody will say, well, of course animals don't have souls. They're not made in the image of God.

Well, angels aren't made in the image of God. But that doesn't mean that they aren't valuable. It doesn't mean they can't be in heaven. You know, yes, they have souls. They have animal souls. It doesn't equate them. But it does say nothing else has souls. You know, so in other words, people, animals, even if you consider it a lesser level of soul.

The word soul, nefesh, and then in the New Testament, Sukai or Nauma for spirit and the Old Testament Rewak for spirit. and animals and ecclesiastes are said to have spirits, and so are people. The spirits of the one go up and the spirits of the one, you know, that whole, that whole thing. So all is that's saying is that there is something more to an animal, at least higher animals, than a body. And everyone knows that that's around animals. They have, I mean, you call them personalities. They're not persons, but, you know, that's what we call them. Sure.

We see the difference. I mean, I've had, in my life, I've had seven dogs and every single one of them distinctly different. From the time I was a kid and up to the one that I have now, the one that Nancy and I, before she went home to the Lord four years ago, picked out together. We had a golden retriever named Maggie, who I talk about in the book. And it's just, but there is something about, there is something that is intangible, but very real. and everyone who's been around animals, especially a pet that gets really close to you and you see God use that pet in your life

to console you, to help you through grief. And that is exactly what is happening. Therapy dogs, I mean, it's everywhere. The whole, the secular world knows it. And what's very interesting is the secular world knows it, but the Christian world sometimes tends, no, we don't want to do that because we associate animals with evolution

and Charles Darwin. No, God made them. Darwin did not make them. I love it. So for clarification by a soul, you kind of mean an immaterial part of the self. Right. And of course, human souls are different from animal souls. We have faculties, things like creativity that animals don't have.

We have a moral conscience, higher level thinking. We can solve problems. So animals don't have the equivalent kind of soul that we don't. have. But clearly when an animal dies, there's, it's now it's just a body and the personality and the soul itself is now gone. Right. So that's all you're saying that humans are body and soul and animals are body and soul. So is the main difference that our souls are more complex and we're able to relate to God in a way that animals don't? What would you say is the difference between a human soul and an animal soul?

Well, I think that there's a lot of similarities, and the fact the same word is used of them is huge. Okay. But the difference would be we are creating the image of God. We have certain aspects of the divine personhood, you know, and a lot of people say, well, the big difference is we're intended to live forever and animals aren't. And so we've gotten so accustomed to the idea of a night.

annihilation for animals, that we've kind of lost the sense of, well, Romans 8 is a perfect example of it. In Romans 8, you've got the whole creation distinguished from we ourselves. Paul says, we ourselves suffer, but the whole creation is groaning in suffering. And we ourselves grown in our suffering. What's he doing? He's distinguishing between us as human beings and another part of creation that suffers. Well, who else in the world? What else in the world literally suffers besides human beings? I think the answer is obvious, animals. Okay. So then he says, and so the whole creation is looking forward to the redemption of our bodies. Why is the rest of creation looking forward to the redemption of our bodies is the resurrection, right? And we know that. Okay, so in what sense is the animal world looking forward to it?

Well, the only sense in which they look forward to it would be the idea that they too could be liberated from the curse. They too could be liberated from the bondage, as Paul puts it in Romans A. And then that would fit perfectly with Isaiah 11 and 65. Why would there be animals on New Earth? Because they too fell under our sin. They didn't sin, but they fell under our sin. sin, and just as they fell on our coattails, it appears they will rise on our coattails. I say in the book, I don't like to use the term redemption or resurrection of animals,

because the Bible doesn't use those terms, but it does use the term, restored, reconciled. You see in Colossians, you see this in Colossians 119. God was pleased to have all of his fullness dwell in Him, Christ, and through him to reconcile everything to himself. And in the original Greek, everything means everything. Whether things on earth or things in heaven. Well, do animals qualify as things on earth? Yeah. I mean, pretty obviously. Whether things on earth or things in heaven by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Now, I do not believe that God died for animals, but very clearly, it's saying the shed blood of Jesus will result in more eternal good than only the salvation of human beings.

And so call it restoration as other passages do, Ephesians 1, Acts 2, Matthew 19. There's a number of passages that speak of restoration in the world to come, and they'll often use things. All things is used. I've got a whole chapter on all things in the Bible. And then at the end of it, saying, do you really believe when God says all things that he means all things but animals? I really don't think so.

But let's jump into some of the more common questions that you get. And I'm really eager for your take on this one. So here we go. You said there'll be animals in the new heavens and the new earth, and they ride our coat tails, so to speak. What about pets on the new heavens in the new earth? Well, here's the interesting thing. If you are convinced that the animals that are said to be on the new earth, to me, I don't even know why people debate this, because it's clear. Okay.

But if you believe those will be brand new, never having existed. animals in the past, never alive in the world under the curse, created XNahilo for the New Earth. If that's your belief, then you'd go, okay, well, then I guess our pets won't be there because they lived on the older. Makes sense. But what if, just like all the human beings on the new Earth will be human beings who lived on the old Earth, right? Well, what if all, or many, in, you know, not even necessarily all. But what if many of the animals who lived on the older earth are the ones who will live, that we know will live on the Newark?

Wouldn't that fit Romans 8? The same animals who suffered and groaned and cried out in their suffering. And I'll tell you, I've got a chapter in the book. It's not super fun, but about a part of it, not the whole thing, but deals with the extent of suffering in the animal world. There are emphasis. Yeah, who just say, look, the biggest problem actually is not human suffering because at least humans, the suffering could be compensated for in the life to come in heaven.

But if animals don't have a new world in which to live, new bodies where they will not suffer, then animals, God, I mean, annihilation is not deliverance. They're ceasing to exist. if that's all it means that they will be relieved of suffering, that isn't much of a consolation because it means they won't be there to experience what it means to be at peace with the world like those animals are described in Isaiah. So there's no chapter and verse saying there'll be specific pets, but you've reasoned together and you'd say you're more confident than not

because of God's character, because of animal suffering, the recreation, that it is probable that our pets would be there. fair? How did you read it? I think it is fair. For me, it's probable, but you've got to say it's possible. I mean, if you take Romans 8 seriously and you see this as the crying out of creation and all that, and then you say, well, there'll be some animals that lived on the older. Oh, well, when you get there, then you go, well, now let's bring the character of God to bear. Let's take his love for his children to bear. Now, I don't agree with the logic where people say, and I've read a number of self-published books, especially where people say,

I know my dog will be in heaven because it wouldn't be heaven if my dog wasn't there. There's some pretty circular reason that happens there. But at the same time, does God care enough about his children? Will he do above and beyond, exceedingly beyond what we ask or think? If anyone on the new earth ever would say to God, you know, I miss that dog. you gave me. And he just meant so much to me, Lord. He was there for me. I mean, there have been animals that have been there for children who have been abused by human beings. And those animals meant the world to them. There's all kinds of examples of what, you have lonely, widows,

you have people who have been considering taking their lives and don't end up taking their lives because I need to stay here and take care of this animal. And I can't bear the idea of, but there, and I can tell you through my grief and the process with Nancy, just having that dog that we picked out together, Gracie, and she's just, she loves life. She loves the day. She loves the walks. She gets me outside of the house, which is healthy for me and all of this.

But would, if any of us ever wanted that and had good memories, is not all we'll have? have good memories of it? Of course, we'll never experience the joy of having a pet again and having Maggie back or Gracie get back or whoever it is. And it's like, well, God who loved us enough to connect us with them in this life, wouldn't it be just like God? Wouldn't it be in keeping with his character to do above and beyond for the children he loves? You know, Jesus said, we know, you know, human beings, God knows how to give better gifts than human beings know how to give. And don't we know how to give a gift of an animal to a child? So why wouldn't God do that?

I mean, unless you've got some clear argument from the Bible saying, of those animals that will live again on the new earth, none of them will be our pets. And you've got some logical reasons for that. I actually can't find any. I think it's interesting. You're really inferring reasoning from the character of God, his love for us, how much animals mean to us. You talked to how much people love their animals, but in the book, I hadn't really thought about this. You said a lot of kids will say when

they grow up, some of their most traumatic experiences were the loss of an animal. Would a good God who loves us and wants to restore creation not do this? At least minimally, I think everybody has to say it's possible. Right. But it may be. flips it a little bit and says the burden proves on somebody that God doesn't do that. If people are listening, they're like, I don't buy it. Right in your questions, right in your objections, we'll be back. And Randy, who's done a serious deep dive in this will give us two cents. But I'm going to ask you a question that right now, if some atheist and skeptical guests are still with us,

they're going to literally think you and I are crazy, which is okay, because we believe in a supernatural world in which Jesus has risen from the grave and miracles happen. But I've got to ask you this question. Do you think animals might talk in the new heavens and the new earth? Well, of course, you know, we know if you're just going to buy Beatrix Potter, C.S. Lewis, Narnia, you know, all that. And you say, well, yeah, but those are just stories. Yeah, they are just stories. However, in the Bible, you have a serpent who talks. And he's not called Satan. Of course, we know. It's, you know, the evil one. is in that serpent. And yet, there's no response from Eve like, well, what is that serpent doing talking?

This is weird. This has never happened. Could there have been other talking animals? There could have been. Maybe there weren't. We don't know. Well, you got the donkey in numbers, of course. We haven't we're going to.

No, that's all right. No, Bailam's donkey. And, you know, but here's the thing. We could look at that and we say, of course, God is supernaturally doing this. But when you read the actual text, I think what's supernatural is he's giving the donkey a voice, a human words by which he can be understood. But what he says is when you were beating me, you know, I mean, it was like, I was trying to do the right thing. I was trying to protect you from all this kind of stuff. And then the angel of God, who's probably the son of God himself, Jesus, but, you know,

very least an angel, is saying, I was going to kill you, Balaam, and I would have, if not for the donkey. So it's like the donkey's righteous and Bailon's, you know, this fool. But the donkey is given a supernatural ability, yes, to speak. But he has thoughts. And those thoughts, I think, are expressed now in his words. Now, in his mind were they as articulate as they finally came out? You know, probably not.

But John Wesley argues, I've got a whole chapter on Wesley and animals, and he spent a huge portion of his life on horseback. I mean, it's phenomenal how much time he spent on horses, and they were among his closest friends. Interesting. And anyway, so, but the things he said, he had a whole sermon on the general deliverance about how all creation is going to experience the benefit. of the resurrection of human beings. Exactly Romans 8, exactly what I'm talking about. And he preached it to people, and he talked about it. And he said, I think just as we will be much smarter than we are now,

and our intellect will be restored, what was lost in the fall, be restored. So animals, what they lost in the fall, and we will be amazed at their intelligence, at their wonder and their beauty. That's fascinating. I got to be honest with you, Randy, I don't know what I think about this one. I've got to process it a little bit, but I did a quick search just for movies with animals that talk. So this is AI. If I miss one, experts on this, forgive me.

But the list goes on and on, Paddington, Babe, Stuart Little, Zootopia, the Lion King, Finding Nemo, do little, fantastic Mr. Fox, on and on and on. And it makes you wonder, like, there's something that we are fascinated by this. we're drawn to this. Is that a good instinct that we have to, I guess you could say, humanize animals in this way and will it be that way in heaven? If I'm an atheist watching this right now, I would literally think you and I have lost our minds.

But with that said, if God exists and he created the world, something from nothing, made life from non-life, create the animals, and God is good, minimally, it is certainly within his powers to do so. That's undoubtable. This is one that's going to be ruined in my mind for a little bit on this one. Okay.

What about, here's an interesting question. Will there be oceans and sea creatures on the New Earth? Because revelation seems to strongly suggest that there won't. Should we take that literally? What's your take on that? Yeah, I think you have an interesting thing because no longer any sea, you've got that in Revelation 21. That's the only passage we had when I would think, okay, so there's going to be no ocean.

But there are a number of Old Testament passages in contexts like Isaiah 60, Isaiah 65, where you have references to oceans. You have Ezekiel 48, where there's this river flowing down from the throne of God and it's coming down and it has great trees growing on both sides of the river, just exactly what it says about the tree of life that's become a forest of life in Revelation 22. And then it says, and it comes out into the sea and the water of the sea becomes fresh. In other words, no more salt water. So you have this change that is going to take place. And it's like, okay, if the Oceans aren't, you know, is, since the world is two-thirds to three-fourths, ocean, is the new Earth going to have no ocean?

And I think that's a stretch. If the vast majority of what constitutes the earth is ocean, and then it's a new earth, a new earth without ocean would be strange. But again, if you just had that passage. But you do have those references, I go into them in more detail in the book. And you do have Psalm 104, we've got these ocean creatures that are part of, you know, and obviously God created them and intended them to have a purpose. The position that I take is not simply a wishful thinking one because for a while, I just just, I guess, just no more ocean.

And then I read Charles Spurgeon preaching on the passage and saying, you know what, I think we have to. There are things in the book of Revelation we take literally, things we take figuratively. This one, I think we have to take figuratively. And then he makes the argument, which many, you know, New Testament scholars, Greek scholars take, which is why does God not, no more seas in what sense? Okay. No more seas that separate families from each other. No more seas where tidal waves and floods come out of them and kill people.

No more seas where the enemy invaders. come and attack us. No more seas where people drown. No more seas with creatures that devour people. No more seas in the bad sense that oceans under the curse have. But now we look at it today and of course people love to go to the ocean and Charles Spurgeon love to go to the ocean. And it's like what, why, where does this even come from? No more seas. That's like, you know, thank for taking away what I'm looking forward to. Like, Nancy, love the ocean. I love the ocean.

And I love ocean creatures. I love snorkeling. I love diving, all of that. And I just think that it's true. There's overwhelming suggestion because of the passages that refer to oceans on the New Earth that seas must be taken figuratively in Revelation 21. That would be my guess, not to mention just the beauty of the sea. Yes.

I mean, we're in Southern California. California and I bike to the beach every chance I get just to see it. Right. But I think you're right. When we look at what the sea represented, it was chaos. It was danger. It was uncertainty. That's gone in the new heavens in the new earth.

Right. You know, the animal that by far, hands down, has most always fascinated me my entire life. And my mom and dad are sitting here in the studio audience listening. She can answer it for me right now are sharks. Oh. And there's just a certain fear and just fascination and awe at them. So I don't want to get it tacked in the new heavens and New Earth. I'm pretty sure that one happened.

But like to be able to see these beautiful, amazing creatures like that in a way we can live with them. I mean, that sure sounds awesome to me. I do underwater photography is one of my favorite things. One time I was filming and having to dive down in the water to film at their level and get a group of six sharks. and good-sized sharks, but these are reef sharks. If this was a great white shark or something like that, yeah, I mean, no, I would not be diving down into their realm to take photos of them. But to do that with these reef sharks, and I've got photos of them at home and close-ups,

and, I mean, it was magnificent. And this is the thing where we, a lot of people say, but you don't, these wild animals, They're terrible. I mean, they're ferocious, you know, and bears that maw people and even dogs that have mauled people or all that. And so there's people who have this fear of animals. But what we've got to remind ourselves is we've only known animals under the curse. And so I can look at like snakes don't bother me, but big spiders, tarantulas, oh my word. I'm with you.

They make me kind of cringe. And I see people with tarantulas falling over their arms or what. But here's the thing. not only will they not pose a threat to us, we won't pose a threat to them, but we will have no fear. We will not have any fear of them. So some of the very creatures that we now dread, and therefore that's another mark against animals, the argument against that. Oh, you can't. What about mosquitoes?

We don't want mosquitoes. Scorpions. Are you a fan of scorpions? Well, we've never known scorpions as they were. in Eden, right? I mean, come on. It's, we've only seen them at their worst, although we've seen some animals at their best, and it's beautiful. I have a number of accounts in the book of animals rescuing other animals of other species in addition to animals rescuing human beings. Some of these stories, they're well documented, they're just true. People that have been out

swimming and had no idea why are they being circled by these killer whales. Okay. And killer whales are not killers of people. Yeah. But they're being circled by them. And then they find out later, and this is all filmed, there were a bunch of sharks that were trying to get to the people and the whales and stories of dolphins, very similar, circling around enough of them to keep protect, you know. Yeah, the predators away. That's really interesting. So I have three more questions for you.

And this next one is a little bit more sober. I was asked this question at a beautiful temple in downtown Boston recently at an outreach. Why does God allow animals to suffer? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think that it's part of the reminder. They have suffered under us. Now, why would animals suffer under us?

Well, because they have that nefesh capacity to suffer that comes with being unique creatures. We are unique creatures. They also are unique creatures. And we have actually much more in common with them than we have in common with rocks and plants and trees, right? And so I think that part of it is they, they, as they suffer on our car, coattails, so they prosper on our coattails. You see this with a family that loves their animals and loves their pets and loves that. And you just see these happy, happy animals that bring joy to us because they're happier than we are. And they bring it to us. And I think part of the reason

God allows suffering is it comes with the same reason you allow suffering for people. And here's the thing. If there is no sense of restoration of animals and deliver of animals from the groaning and suffering of Romans A, then I think you've got a very serious question, why does God allow animal suffering? But if he actually has a solution to that, and if you take Romans A at face value, which I do, and think that it will include animals, and if you consider that those animals will be forever happy in relationship with each other and with human beings on the new earth, then it makes sense. in the same way that humans will be delivered for eternity,

and this life will seem very small compared to the life to come. Great perspective. So two more questions for you. Will there be hunting, fishing, and meat eating in the New Earth? Now, by the way, I'm not a big fisherman. I've actually never shot an animal in my life and gone hunting, but I don't in principle have a problem with it because I am a meat eater. Yes, yes.

So will there be one of those, both of those, all three of those, what's your best take on that? Well, and you can imagine, so I'm from Oregon and hunting is really big. I'm not a hundred myself, but a lot of my closest friends are hunters and fishermen. And they talk about it all the time. They just say, oh, please, please, when you write this book, please don't come down on us. Well, first of all, in Genesis 9, God explicitly says, just as you ate, you know, vegetation from the beginning. And this is interesting because it's it's at least 1,500 years after Eden before the flood.

You know, you can calculate it different ways. But only then are people allowed to eat meat. But once we're permitted to eat meat, it's perfectly fine. And if you're going to eat meat, you better kill it first, right? I mean, that's just, you know, part of the deal, right? So you, so it's okay in a world under the curse. God makes certain concessions to life under the curse, you know? And so I think that's one of them.

But if you are looking at the ultimate new earth and the promise of Isaiah 11 and 65 animals at peace with one another, the lions that used to devour lambs and goats and, you know, calves and all of that and the bears and all of them, you know, they will be at peace. And they're said to be at peace with what used to be their prey. And in the very same sense, people are said to be at peace with them. Little children are to be at peace with them. And so what I say is, look, God is fully capable of making redeemed taste buds and redeemed fruit taste better by far than they ever tasted to us. He can take away the taste of blood. I'm a carnivore like you. Okay, so I am not going, oh, man, I'm a vegan, I'm a vegetarian. I'm just against it in principle. That's not my argument.

My argument is that one day it will be like Eden. Were they eating animals and eaten? I think clearly the answer is no. One possible response is it's amazing how much the technology right now is creating these alternatives to meat that are artificial, but it's getting better and better and tasting more and more like meat. Yes. Just like God could change our taste buds, which I'm always, I guess I'm somewhat hesitant to say he would change our taste buds, but maybe you could persuade me of that another time.

I'd be more likely to persuade it to say God makes something that tastes like what we enjoy out of meat. And that's really what matters more than the source of what it came from. again, if God is good and he has made us, God could clearly make something better than the best technology in the world and the meat substitutes, which we don't enjoy. Okay, fair enough. So, last question about this is you obviously had some preconceptions going into writing this book about animals. In fact, there's a good amount in your book on heaven about animals. It's two full chapters.

So you went in with some preconceptions, some theology. what most surprised you as you dug into this research. And did you change your mind on anything related to animals, big or small, while you were researching and writing this book? Yeah, I think one of the ways I changed my mind, Sean, was just those four chapters in Job, Psalm 104, God's consistent argument for his own greatness as manifested in the way he has created the animal world. Now, did I know that God, of course, as Roman says, he's displayed his attributes in creation? Of course, I knew that. But I don't think I really had come to terms. I know

I hadn't come to terms with the extent of that. And when you consider that there's only one kind of human being in the world, now we think there's many kinds of human beings because there's many colors and there's many. Sure. But there's one kind of human being, right? The diversity in the animal kingdom, some people say 9 million species, some say 6 million species, whatever number it is. The diversity that is there is stunning. The beauty is stunning. These axioles, these tiny little things, you see in underwater creatures, because I love watching documentaries on underwater creatures, what exists in this world and the stunning, breathtaking beauty of it

could not be exhausted in a million years, and we'll have more than a million years. I'm telling you it's beyond belief. And will we have marine biologists on the new earth? I know this. We may not have marine biologists or we may, but we will have people looking at animals and marveling at them.

And then I think we will understand, as we never did before, where God was trying to take Job, that somehow Job's view of God, and therefore his view of even the problem of evil and suffering, should take on a new depth and resonance greater than it's ever been when we consider the beauty of the animal world. And I actually think we would be at a great deficiency,

to not have animals. There's not just the animals wouldn't be there so that'd be bad for them. It would be, it would be really bad for us because can you imagine all these species of the world that we've never even seen

that display God's glory as Romans and other passages say, can you imagine if we never had the opportunity to see them? The average person in the world has seen, I think, something well less than 1% of animal species

and maybe just a fraction of 1%. that exist. That's really interesting. And so will the rest of the world never have the opportunity to see those? Or will we have to look at you know, well, God, could you show us on film what animals used to be? You know, no, I won't show them to you on film. I think they're just going to be right here and you'll see them. Randy, I'm going to give you the best compliment I could give somebody and that's that you remind me of my dad. Your love for scripture, your enthusiasm. When you talk about this, You just like almost can't contain yourself.

Well, I can't tell you how much I love your dad and the honor of being able to see your dad and mom over there right now. It's just beyond measure for me. Well, thanks so much for saying that. I thoroughly enjoyed your book. I was talking with my wife about it going, man, I've got to think about this some more. I don't know that I've ever seen or really thought about a theology of animals, a theology of the afterlife in animals. It feels like this book should have been written a long time ago. Maybe there's other books that have been written and I missed it.

I think you're going to stir up some conversation in a good way, but I suspect most people will be with you on most of your answers here. And the ones where you admit animals talking, you're like, look, I'm speculating, I'm guessing. Like you admit that, which I appreciate, but it flows from your understanding of God, understanding scriptures. And I think we have some room to do that because the scriptures give us some principles, give us some truths. And then we just do our best to piece it together in light of what we do know. And I think you've done that.

Again, with your book, All God's Creatures is fascinating. Folks, you have way more. How many chapters are in the book? I don't even know if you remember, but there's 20. So there's about 10 or 15 more chapters than we got to. Pick up a copy of All God's Creatures and make sure you subscribe to the Think Biblical podcast, subscribe to the YouTube channel, and spread the world to an animal lover in your life. to hear this podcast. Thanks, Randy.

Pleasure to be with you, Sean. Thank you. Hey, friends. If you enjoyed this show, please hit that follow button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning in haven't done this yet, and it makes a huge difference in helping us reach and equip more people and build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every review helps. Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where we have on campus and online programs in apologetic, spiritual information, marriage and family, Bible, and so much more. We would love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and defend the Christian faith today.

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