The Sean McDowell Show - Why A Militant Communist Came to Christ (ft Sy Garte)

Episode Date: February 19, 2024

Why would a militant communist, indoctrinated to hate Christians, become a follower of Jesus? What scientific evidence and personal experiences convinced him to radically change the direction of his life? I am joined for the first time by author and scientist Sy Garte to discuss his story and new book on the intersection of science and faith. READ: Science and Faith in Harmony, by Sy Garte (https://amzn.to/3HHWrd8) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for $100 off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: @sean_mcdowell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org

Why would a militant communist become a follower of Jesus? What scientific evidence and experiences convinced him to radically change the direction of his life? Our guest today, scientist Cy Dart, is the author of a new book called Science and Faith in Harmony, which I had the privilege of writing the foreword for. How was religion viewed in your household? What was the journey to become a scientist? Do you have unanswered questions still? The whole idea seemed absurd. Wouldn't it be interesting if I gave a sermon? That is a satanic lie. Cy, great to have you on. And I'm so looking

forward to just exploring your story and some of the things in this book. Well, it's great to be here, Sean, and I'm looking forward to interacting with you and sharing my story. Well, let's jump right in because you have a powerful, dramatic story. And from reading and learning about you, you have deep communist roots in your family lineage. Can you tell us how far back that goes and maybe a little bit in particular about your parents and their beliefs? Well, it goes back three generations. All four of my grandparents were very left wing. At least two of them were members of the American

Communist Party and my parents were members of the american communist party in the 30s uh i have other relatives who were very active in unions uh my grandfather knew sacco and vincetti in boston uh it it i have deep roots in extreme left-wing uh politics and uh that's how I grew up. I mean, I grew up with believing and surrounded by literature from the Soviet Union and believing strongly in communism. And part of that was a very strong atheism. Communism and atheism go together. And so I never even thought about God. It just was a non-event for me. I mean, I just thought that the possibility of there being a God was just out of the question. My father was a scientist. He was a chemist. And part of that was he was also very materialistic in terms of no interest in anything spiritual or outside of the natural world. And that's also was part of my heritage.

And so I remained that way through my youth and early adulthood. I was a radical in the 1960s for a while, and then I left. But that's a whole nother story we won't get into. But at some point, I decided that there was something missing in my life. I didn't know what it was. It was some kind of sense of purpose or whatever. And I found that in science. And that worked out quite well for me because I also majored in chemistry like my dad. But then I went to biochemistry as a graduate student

because I loved life and biology. Let me jump in here before we get too many steps ahead. I want to make sure you understand some of your early childhood. If your family was so deeply communistic, why not live in the Soviet Union? Why did they emigrate to the States? That is a great question. It's interesting how few American communists actually went to the soviet union and the few who did many of them stayed a few months and fled the reality was nothing like the ideal uh let's put it that way and um they were born in the u.s my my parents were and the whole idea of the American Communist Party was to bring communism to America, as it was in every other country.

Of course, that didn't work, thank God. They actually left the party just before I was born, right after the Second World War, but remained, especially my mother, remained a committed communist all of her life. Okay. Okay, that makes sense. So how was religion viewed in your household? As, I would say, two ways, false and evil. Oh, okay. false and evil oh okay so uh first of all religion based on god was completely um wrong false there couldn't be any such thing and second of all religion was the source of all evil i mean

you'll hear this excuse me this argument today from certain atheists uh and it's based on a a completely distorted view of history which is not surprising because everything the communists did was distorted uh and and still is but uh you know their view of history was that religion was the source of all evil. And that sums it up. Wow. Okay. Pretty strong. Yeah, it sounds pretty strong. Did you have a safe childhood? Did you feel your parents loved you?

Did you have a good relationship with your parents? What was that like apart from the ideology you've shared with us? Well, that's a complex question, Sean, that I've spent a little time in psychotherapy on that one. been told in the 30s 40s and later not to have kids because they're yeah this is true their emphasis should be on you know the ideology the the work the bringing of the revolution and if you have kids it's kind of a distraction now my parents didn't obey that. They did have two kids, myself and my sister. And our relations were good, but they were not super warm, let's put it that way. It was always a sense there was something else in the background. And it was a little tricky for me as a child because there weren't any communists in my neighborhood. I grew up in Brooklyn, New York, where everyone was either Catholic or Jewish.

I mean, that's New York. And there were other communist kids, in other words, children of communists, in fact, we called them diaper babies. And I knew a few of them from school and from the camps I went to, but not in my neighborhood. So that was often a problem. So did you feel just kind of like an outsider,

that you were always competing to try to fit in? I mean, what was that like? Well, I don't think so much competing, but I felt like I was an outsider when I hung around with the kids on my block because I was. I didn't go to church I hung around with the kids on my block because I was, you know, I didn't go to church. I didn't go to Hebrew school. I didn't. Those are the two things that everyone else did. And I didn't do either of those. I didn't celebrate any holidays. I never had a Christmas tree, never celebrated any holiday. We gave presents on New Year's because

that's when they, that's what they did in the Soviet Union. They, kids got gifts on New Year's because that's what they did in the Soviet Union. Kids got gifts on New Year's Day. So, yeah, it was an unusual childhood and youth. Yeah. My parents had children's books that were Christian children's books. Did you have communist children's books? What was that like that's that was really strange if i if i describe one of those books to you you'd be shocked um the one i remember was uh started with the story of these very holy people they were they were like monks or some sort of a very uh holy type of people and then it turned out and they were so holy that they had to put uh cloths on the ground so they

wouldn't mistakenly kill any insects while they walked okay and then it turned out the reality was that they were killing children in their houses. Horrifying story. Holy cow. Yeah. And it was meant to illustrate that religious people are hypocrites and evil. Wow. And I still remember it today because I had nightmares for years about that. But yeah, that just gives you a taste and you know yeah i mean obviously i know

who your father is and not not the same as mine let's put it that way sure i mean holy cow totally different uh influence that's that's really helpful thanks for giving us a glimpse into that so you grow up in the 50s in the 60, obviously things shift and start getting a little bit more radical. Did you become radical? Did you join some of the communist revolutionary movements? Well, I joined SDS, which was not really communist, although it was very left wing. And Students for a Democratic Society was anti-war, pro-civil rights. But I'll tell you the truth, Sean, I didn't remain a radical for very long, maybe a few years.

And the reason for that was I began to see things among my fellow radicals that I just felt didn't go with my overall worldview of justice and freedom and respect for people. There was a lot of fascism in the left-wing radical student movement at that time. And it wasn't just students, it was other people as well. And I didn't accept that. I reacted against it. And there was one point when I actually just decided I'm done and I just left the whole thing completely. And at that point, I had given up communism and everything else like it. Okay, so this is long before you really started to question atheism. Yes.

You started to question atheism you started to see okay i i gave up all that left-wing stuff in my in my early 20s i was still an atheist and i didn't know anyone who wasn't i mean you know the the catholic kids i knew went to mass but they were not really religious you know they just going through the motions mostly and uh yeah i didn't have any experience of the religion whatsoever however i actually did and what i say now is that god was calling me my whole life i just didn't know and i wasn't listening but there was one experience where i did know for a few minutes okay and that was i went to see a movie uh with my girlfriend who it turned out was secretly a christian i didn't know she didn't know

okay but she brought me to see a film called the gospel according to saint matthew which was an italian film with the text being the the text of the gospel which i've never heard of of course and it's a beautiful movie but what's really special about it is the music and i happen to be a muse a music major i went to high school in art in new york and i love music and the music was extremely evocative the after the the crucifixion there's a long long scene with Jesus being brought to the burial site, and there's a very somber, solemn Russian mass or hymn being played. It's very sad and very somber and very Russian. And that goes on and on until the moment when you see the women at the tomb and mary magnet looks up and sees the

stone rolled back and at that instant the music changes from that very deep slow russian hymn to this beautiful joyous light african hymn called Misa Luba. And the contrast in the music just had an amazing effect on me. And I remember clearly looking at that. I understood that this was showing the resurrection. And I said, it might be real. Wow. and I said it might be real because the emotion that I had from that musical maneuver

was so strong and powerful I hadn't felt that way before but after a few minutes I said no no that's just a trick yeah that's a trick of the filmmakers they knew they were going to get an emotional reaction from people who like music so that's not real well now of course i know it was real it was god putting me there and showing me the truth in a way that i recognized for a few minutes but then of course i couldn't accept that

we had these you have these other dramatic experiences dreams that we're gonna get to but that's amazing as a teenager very secular you have that moment quickly put it away but it stayed with you and you recall it now looking back that's powerful so what was the journey to become a scientist what did that take What was that decision for you like? Well, as I said, it was an easy decision to make because although I loved history and music, there were other things I liked. Science did something for me that kind of filled this gap, which I thought was, you know, as I said, a gap in purpose. Maybe even some people would call it a spiritual gap because I definitely had a spiritual gap.

But science is very spiritual when you really get into it. It's about the world. It's about God's creation. So even if you don't call it that, that's what it's about. So there's a spirituality baked into science that a lot of people don't realize. But if you ask most scientists, even atheist scientists, and you explain spirituality in the right way, they will say, yeah, that's true. So I loved it. And, you know, I love chemistry. Biology was too hard for me because it's too much to memorize. But I love chemistry and biochemistry was great because it brought the biology in, but it was still chemistry. And then things started to get strange it started when i was a chemistry major and i had to solve

this equation called the schrodinger equation which is related to quantum mechanics and you know it's all very mechanical you you get instructions you solve things you do do what you're supposed to do in math but when you look into what it's all about quantum mechanics is very very strange and i'm sure you've heard this before yeah there are there are things about quantum mechanics that don't make sense and um when you learn it in school you're just taught okay this is how it is it's true it's real it works and we can't understand the philosophical whatever behind it. But you don't care. You don't have to worry about that. Well, I did worry about it. Remember, I grew up in a very materialistic reductionist idea that, you know, you just follow the equations and you follow the science and everything makes sense and you can predict everything.

No, you can't. It turned out You can't predict things with quantum mechanics. Not only that, but the uncertainty principle, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, which is part of quantum mechanics, specifically says that you cannot know certain, you can't know certain things. Not that we don't know them yet. You can never know the position and the

momentum of an electron at the same time. That's critical. If that weren't true, we would not be speaking this way. It's an absolute fact. And that destroyed an entire building block that I had in my mind on why I wanted to be a scientist was that you can know everything eventually with science turns out you can't there are many other things that say the same thing by the way so that was a little bit of a shock to me uh and then when i was learning biochemistry and i was learning the details of how life works and you may have heard this from other people it's astonishing i mean you know steve meyer has has written about this and yeah and many other people have but when you look at the way the proteins are made and and the incredible complexities of those chemical reactions

yes they're chemical reactions but where do they come from i I mean, and I remember hearing people, hearing my professors talking about this and feeling a chill up and down my spine. And I had the same feeling when I taught it later. You know, it's like, this is just incredible. And all of that, biology, quantum theory, a lot of other things, began shaking the bedrock foundation of my atheism or of my reductionist materialism, which was part of the atheism. And I began thinking at some point that, you know, maybe I don't believe in God,

but, you know, maybe there is something else. There's something beyond just science. Sometimes it's called scientism. You know, it's only science. It's the only thing that's real. I didn't know what it was. And as you said before, it was the 60s, and there was a lot of stuff going on in the cultures,

new age and, you know, spirituality. And I didn't take drugs, but psychedelics were everywhere and that was supposed to be a whole new way of reality. And so I started thinking about all of that. I read a few books on mysticism. Didn't really impress me much, but I mean, I didn't understand them. I tried to look into Buddhism. That didn't do anything for me at all. But I started thinking the following thought. Maybe I'm not really an atheist. Maybe I just don't know.

Maybe I'm an agnostic. I mean, I certainly don't believe in God. But I can't be sure that there's no God. Or there's no something else. Whatever that might be. It might not be God. It might be it might not be god it might be the universe you know and you we all know about this spirituality not religious stuff

right and and that's where i was um and i stayed that way for quite a while in the middle of that period i had my first dream the first dream that you mentioned where okay hang on for one minute before yeah this is important i want to get to the dream see this is this started during your college time so you had this kind of spiritual experience seeing the gospel matthew in high school but you put it away after five minutes it didn't really put a dent in your materialism it was kind of the quantum mechanics and the complexity of life that started to make you question scientism and materialism as a college student. That's in the time that you really had that, right?

And as a graduate student as well. Okay. Yeah. I think the only thing I would add is that what I learned from science was what it did was it broke down my absolute resistance to even consider the idea of anything beyond science. It broke down my what I often call my the walls of my prison in atheism. And it didn't break them down completely, but it started cracking them and they got weak. And I began to see there was something outside and I didn't know what it was. So it's really not a shift in your science.

It's more a shift in your philosophy, how you think about science and how you think about reality. Through science, this kind of shift is taking place. Exactly. Did you know any Christians at this time? Did you go to church at this time? Or there's nothing positive towards God. It's just slowly breaking away materialism during this period. Is that fair? Yeah, the latter. i didn't know any christians i had never been to a church first time i went to a church which i'll talk about in a minute while i was in my 40s oh wow okay okay so you kind of go from atheism to agnosticism where you would have at least said i don't know

i may be open to more and then you start to move from agnosticism to you would have at least said i don't know i may be open to more and then you start to move from agnosticism to kind of theism and specifically christianity is that what started with the dream yeah and and the first dream i was i was actually was i was fairly young and i i was probably still an atheist burging on agnosticism, but I had no interest in God. And what happened, this was the dream where I, I should just say, all of this is, this is in my first book, which came out in 2019, The Works of His Hands. And I describe all of this in detail, but I'll just, the general first dream was a nightmare where I was hanging on by my hands on a clip hanging down about all. And I heard a voice say, just let go. And I thought that was crazy because I let go of all.

But but the voice was insistent. And eventually I said, well, I have nothing to lose. So I let go. And when I did, the world turned 90 degrees as soon as I let go. And I, instead of falling, I was lying on the ground on my stomach. And I looked up and there was a man standing there who was the voice. And I woke up and I had no idea what that was, what it meant. I just, I just, but never forgot it. It was such a powerful dream yeah yeah and then later when i was in the phase now of starting to think about it maybe there is something else actually it was even later than that i should say the second dream that i had i was already thinking about christianity okay i had a church i had been brought to a church by a friend of mine it was in my 40s it was the first time i was terrified

i'd never stepped into a church before and i was sure let me jump in i'm sorry so your your materialism is being questioned quantum mechanics origin of life in your 20s. And then it's not until your 40s, like 20, 25 years later, that this has been brewing in your mind. So for those, for that two decades, you were just doing your work in the back of your mind, just somewhat being increasingly open to the idea of God, like what was happening in your mind over those two decades before we jumped to church? You're absolutely right. I mean, in my 30s, like many people in their 30s, I was making a career. I was working at science. I was writing papers. I was publishing. I was doing experiments. I was running a lab, etc. I wasn't thinking about any of this it was you know i

had two kids uh it was there was a lot going on it was life and i wasn't thinking about faith or any philosophy philosophical issues i was just trying to work uh what in my 40s uh yeah had a lot of life changes and at some point i met someone who was a christian actually catholic but you know and uh a friend who and she brought me asked if she could bring me to church and i i didn't want to, but I thought, well, you know, why not? I'll try it. But I was really scared about it. I had heard horrible things about churches and Christians in general. And I thought, and this is a Catholic church. So, you know, the Catholics were the worst, according to my upbringing. And I just thought, you know, I would be, I don't know, something bad would happen to me. I can't remember what I thought

then, what I thought at the time. But, you know, I was thinking about the, you know, the Crusades and the, what do you call it? The inquisition maybe yes thank you the inquisition and you know i mean it sounds extreme but i didn't know what would happen it was wonderful i walked in nobody said anything to me and i turned around and said piece of christ shook my hand the priest gave a sermon all about love, which, you know, nothing about damnation and sin and fire and brimstone, all the stuff I was worried about. So I went back a couple of times and I even remembered this movie I'd seen and I decided to read that gospel according to Matthew and I did the first time and then I decided to look at another book I chose the book of Acts and as I mentioned earlier I love history and when I read the book of Acts it this is history

I said to myself this is not made up this actually happened you can tell if you're if you're a historian and i have to tell you sean i mean if you if you love history and you read history you can tell when something is history and when it's a myth or a legend or yeah and the book of acts was real it happened and that really that really shook me and so then i started started thinking about God, Jesus, all of that. And that's when I had my second dream. Okay, now tell us about the second dream. So you went at 46. Is this dream when you're 46? Is this a couple years later? When was this it was a little later than that i might have been in my late 40s i think yeah mid to late 40s i don't know exactly i'd been to church a few times and i'd read some of the gospels but not all of it and the dream was that i was walking or i was walking and i saw a a structure that was a walled

garden i knew there was a beautiful garden inside, but I couldn't get in because it was all surrounded by a wall. And I tried to climb over the wall. It was too high and it was too difficult. And I kept walking around looking for a place where there might be a way to climb up. Couldn't find anything. And then I passed a man who was standing there

and he said, what's the problem? And I said, I want to get into the garden there. And he said, what's the problem? And I said, I want to get into the garden there. And he said, well, why don't you use the door? And he pointed to a door. And I walked in. And there was the garden. And then I woke up. And I didn't have to think about that one. That was Jesus offering me the gift of faith.

And all I had to do to get it was just walk inside. I didn't have to do anything else. I didn't have to prove myself. I didn't have to pass a test. I didn't have to answer questions. It was there. It was there. It was open. There was no lock that I had to pick or break or open with a key.

It was an open door. And that dream had an amazing, had a very powerful effect on me. I realized that I wanted to believe and I especially wanted to believe in Jesus Christ from what I had read in the Gospels and what I had been hearing and what I'd been thinking about but I couldn't quite get there. There was still something holding me there. And, you know, I thought about the first dream and I realized that what Jesus had told me then was, you have to let go. And I never knew what that meant.

Let go of what? And what it was, was to let go of everything that was, you know, all my upbringing, my 20 years of indoctrination, my feeling that believing in God would just, you know, be impossible for me because it would destroy my science. It would destroy my very essence of being. I couldn't quite do it. I wanted to, but I couldn't get there. And then I stayed that way for a few years. And then the only, what happened next was that the Holy Spirit had mercy on me and realized God is like that, right? God is omniscient.

And it was clear I wasn't going to be able to make that final step on my own. And the Holy Spirit came and dragged me across that threshold one day while I was awake. I was driving my car alone on a long-distance trip between two cities. And I was listening to the radio radio and I heard a Christian preacher. And he was really good as often radio preachers are. I mean, by good, I mean, you know, you know, I don't have to tell you, Sean. His voice was able to really, you know, give the force of the spirit.

And I turned off the radio and I started thinking, well, I like to talk. I mean, maybe it wouldn't be interesting if I gave a sermon. What would that be like? And the whole idea seemed absurd. But I started thinking about, well, maybe I talk about the origin of life or something scientific. And then I had this feeling come over me, which I, of course, cannot describe, but I was in a different time and place. I pulled the car over and stopped

because it felt like partially having a vision. And in the vision, I was giving a sermon to a crowd of people who were sitting outside. And the sermon that I gave, which I remembered and I wrote down, and it's in the book, in the first book, basically said, and this is the core of it, that if you people who are all Christians, if you think that Jesus might not love you, I'm here to tell you that's wrong. He does. And I know that. Because he loves even me. Sinner that I am. I've told this, I've told this so many times, and I still have trouble. The feeling was, at that point, I opened my eyes, and I burst into tears,

and I said out loud, I believe. Wow. Because the Holy Spirit had come to me, given me those words. I had never thought of those words before. And the idea that Jesus would love even me was just overwhelming. And at that moment, and for the next, I don't know, half hour while I was sitting there trying to compose myself, I felt this overwhelming joy, relief, freedom, just born again. That was the moment I was born again.

And I've been a believer ever since. Is it fair to say that intellectually you start to question materialism in college? Get to the gospels well in particular matthew and then you go to acts and are convinced this is a real report this is true but it was on that journey that you're like the level of your own sinfulness became very real and it was personalized so before then it was a little distance it was out there maybe it's true but doesn't affect me and that was an awakening of your sinfulness need for Savior right then and there you you you got it perfectly in fact you I don't think I've ever said it that well that is exactly correct hmm and and and you know the emotional force of that realization was just literally overwhelming. And I've been pretty active online for the last few years and with a lot of atheists and some of them will ask me, what would make you go back and realize that, you know, rational atheism is correct. And I answer very

honestly, that's absolutely impossible to happen. You know, the experience that I had coming to faith will not ever be overturned. It's impossible. It was so powerful. That's incredible. That's really incredible. Now, you mentioned being married, having a couple kids. As much as you're comfortable talking about this, your journey, obviously, this is not you alone, but your life changes with your wife, where she is at, how she's responded. Obviously, the level you're comfortable sharing but i love any insight about how that has played out that that you're willing to share well i will i can't go into details that would be another hour and a half but i will just say that when i said sinner that i am i meant it And that marriage did not last longer than the first, say, 20 years or so.

And I remarried, had another child, and I've recently been married, recently the last 10 years for the third time. And, you know, my life has been complicated. Let's put it that way. Three marriages, two divorces, three kids, five grandchildren. You know, it's been a complex life. I have sinned. I have tried to make up for that in many ways as much as I can. But I think this coming to faith in Jesus kind of overshadows all of that i mean i had i don't i don't uh downplay or i don't uh negate the sinfulness of some of my actions uh and you know i think that that's that's one of the reasons i'm i'm a christian i mean you know the day I got baptized and I was in my 60 are washed away, it wasn't just words. It was a truly emotional, powerful thing. And I have, since then, I have devoted my life to spreading the gospel, spreading the word, and specifically the word about science and faith, because with all this, I never lost one speck of my scientific worldview.

And what I now know is that there is no conflict whatsoever between a scientific worldview and a gospel worldview. They harmonize, which is the title of the book. That's right. They don't say the same thing, just as two musicians who are singing or playing in harmony don't sing or play the same notes, then there's no harmony. But if they play different notes that go beautifully together, that's when you have the real beauty of music.

And, you know, nothing does more for me than to listen to a great gospel choir singing in harmony. And it's the essence of prayer. We're going to get to some of the examples in your book, but I'm curious if you had any childhood friends from the 50s or 60s, college friends who you've reconnected with and have maybe been shocked at the change and where life led you. Tell us about some of those dynamics, if they exist. Well, I actually wrote an article about that in Premier Christianity. And this is, I had given it the title of You'll Never Believe It. They changed the title. But I had a very good, my best friend as a youth was another red diaper baby. His parents were also members of the party. He also became a radical like me. We were communists together, atheists together. I kind of lost touch with him after high school.

But at one point he came to my house and needed some money because he was running from the police. He was into drugs. He was into all kinds of stuff. It was the 60s. He didn't do well and he i never heard from him again he disappeared until oh i think about five or six years ago with the with the internet and facebook he found me wow and we reconnected and he said to me

you'll never believe this. I married a wonderful Christian woman and I'm now a Christian. And I wrote back saying, you'll never believe it. So am I. Amazing. Amazing. That's awesome. Yeah, that's my that's a great story. And it's completely true. So, yeah, no, there are other people who were not, did not go that route.

And I do have some friends and colleagues who, they're still friendly with me, but we're not in touch as much because they think I'm a little, you know, off. Crazy. you know, crazy. So you had, you had some unanswered questions as an, as an atheist materialist when it came to science. Now that you're Christian, do you have unanswered questions still? What are they and how do you deal with them? Great question. Yeah more and the reason there are more is because i now look at science from the from the context of a christian who believes that god created everything including the laws of science including uh us including the world uh But then the scientific, so I'm completely a follower of, you know, of the Christian creeds and the gospels, the Bible in general, I believe in inerrancy, all of that. But then the question comes in, okay, so God did all this, how? How did he do it and uh you know i can't deal with that when it comes to things like

the origin of the universe that clearly was you know creation of god but i also believe that god created life and human and human beings because there's no other good scientific explanation for that but there probably is a scientific way to look at that and we don't know what it is yet and i just said this the other day you know when people say uh you know modern science doesn't agree with the bible well some of modern science doesn't, but then in 1900, modern science said that the universe was past eternal. It was a or, you know, 2050 or into the future. And I believe that we're far from finished with science. And I believe that many of the questions like how did life originate, which at the moment we have no idea, There will be a scientific answer, but that science will be very different from the science we think of today. And you know, Sean, that Justin Briley has written a book

about, you know, the surprising rebirth of science. And there's another book, which actually you did an interview with Alistair McGrath called Coming to Pay Through Dawkins, which I have an essay in. And the point is that atheism is becoming not so popular anymore. And especially atheism is turning against science in many ways, which is strange, right? We think of atheism and science together. Not so much. And I may be a false prophet here, but I'm predicting that as time goes on, science will show us more and more that everything we believe in from God's word is true. Wow. And that's all I can say, because I don't, I'm not smart enough

to figure out how, but I do know that even in the mainstream biological literature where there is no theism involved, there are people publishing about the cognition of bacteria they're publishing about all kinds of amazing things in biology about whole new ways of thinking about evolution that have nothing to do with Darwin things that actually that actually point to what we believe from reading Genesis. I can't go into detail because it gets really complicated, but that's my general view, answering your question about what do I think about the questions. Yes, there are questions, and I am firmly, firmly, firmly believe that when we're done my mainstream absolutely correct science and biblical faith will tail will tell the same story they'll still be in harmony but they'll be singing the same song so what's your response

to some ways you've kind of responded this but I'm curious how you'd articulate it when somebody says, you know, Professor Gart, religion is a science stopper. We need to get rid of religion for science to advance. Religion has stood in the way of scientific advancement, and they could give some practical examples of how they think that's the case, maybe with Galileo, etc. So in general, what do you say when you hear religion is a science? Well, I just simply point out that that's a myth that was started in the late 19th century. It's very recent. Before that, religion and science went perfectly together. All the original scientists were Christians. You name a scientist from Robert Boyle to Galileo to Copernicus, look at Maxwell, Faraday.

These people were not just Christians. They were devout Christians. They wrote as much, almost as much about Christianity as they did about science. And these are the founders of fields like chemistry, electricity, physics, biology, you know, Alexander Fleming, Lord Kelvin. These people were all Christians. This idea that religion and Christian, sorry, that the Christian religion and science are in conflict is nonsense. It always has been. It's a myth that was perpetrated in the end of the 19th century by a few people.

And it caught on. It was then pushed by Bertrand Russell and others. And it became a dominant theme in our society but it's wrong it's dead wrong so no religion doesn't stop science at all and uh you know the examples that people give are first of all many of those at the store to the galileo story there's a great book called uh dalileo galileo goes to try goes to jail i think it's by someone we know but the name just went out of my head i know you know him um i'll think of it uh and there are other there are other books about it and it's a very different story than the popular version

yeah there's another popular story i've heard this from people like Arne Ra, you know, who's a smart guy. But I mean, he'll say things like, well, religion is responsible for all the wars and deaths in history. I mean, that's just patently, you just have to look at Wikipedia history of wars had anything to do with religion at all. So, you know, you get a lot of this in this culture. And the new atheism made it even worse. And that's why I think so many people are now taking another look at this idea of militant strong atheism. It doesn't work. So you're formally retired, but you're still publishing papers. You're still doing some scientific work because you love it. But what is it like to just live out your faith? Give us kind of a glimpse. I'm not a scientist of what it looks like for somebody who's so scientific-minded

to just live out your faith and grow spiritually. What does that look like for somebody who's so scientific-minded to just live out your faith and grow spiritually? What does that look like for you? Well, the main thing it looks like is writing books. So this is the second one. Yeah, it's great. I've got a third one that I'm writing now, which I'm not going to talk about, but I hope it will be an interesting one when it comes out. I talk, I give lectures, I go to churches, I talk about this issue all the time. I edit a magazine called God and Nature, which is part of the American Scientific Affiliation, which I should put a plug in. They are the largest U.S. organization of Christians who work in the sciences.

So when somebody says you can't be a scientist to be a Christian, well, there are 3,000 members of that organization who disagree. 3,000. Yeah, at least. And all of those people have PhDs in the science. So we're not talking about, you know, online types like certain people I won't mention. No, these are real scientists. And so I'm very active in that organization. We're having an annual meeting in Washington, D.C., which is near my home. And I'm on the organizing committee for that. I also participate in a local charity. It has nothing to do with science. My wife is the chair of that.

We distribute food and funds to people in severe need. I'm very active in my church. I was the lay leader until recently. So, yeah, I'm retired, but all that means is i don't get paid fair enough that's fair enough well let's talk about you meant you mentioned the book and i remember when you when you contacted me i was familiar with your story uh read the chapter in the book by alistair McGrath and seen an interview or two and just loved your voice. And so the theme of science and faith and harmony is just such a refreshing theme. We hear about either they're at odds or they have nothing to do with one another

or they're in conflict. But this idea of harmony, I think, is a beautiful metaphor. So tell us what you're getting at with the idea of harmony. And then maybe just one of your favorite examples to give people a sense of what you do in the book. Okay. Yeah. I mean, you know, again, people will say, well, okay, you know, you have the Bible, which says that God created everything in six days, and, you know, the sun comes too soon, or whatever, and science has shown all that's wrong. Well, what I say is is what the bible says is that the universe had a beginning and it was created by god and what science says what science says is the universe had a beginning

we don't know who created it that's right that's not an opposition that's in harmony and if you look at genesis really carefully you see that there's a lot of biological truth in it okay I mean God created the living organisms in the correct order according to evolution so it doesn't say it doesn't give a darwinian perspective but it does talk about the creation of life and what comes last human beings what does science say human beings came last and then now there are many other differences okay uh science so far doesn't recognize the fact that we're made in the image of God. But I think that's going to change because we don't have any other explanation for why human beings are the way we are.

We're not just animals. We are. We are spiritual beings. We are creative beings. We're artistic. We're musical. We're funny. We're all these things that no other creature is. Where did that come from? That didn't come from evolution. That came from the image of God, including our souls. So that's what I mean by harmony. They're not playing exactly the same notes. We're not expecting at this moment in time,

modern science of 2024 is not saying the same thing that the gospel say or that or the genesis says or any part of the bible but they're not in contradiction they're in harmony so that's what i mean by the title and i and i think the first chapter i i talk about that um i i think one of my favorite chapters is called Quantum Reality 2. I'm just checking the time. I'm not going to be able to read the whole thing. But, you know, there's something very interesting about quantum reality, which is in harmony with the nature of Jesus Christ.

One of the things that, you know that atheists and I myself used to say is how can you say that Jesus Christ is fully human and fully divine? That's a logical impossibility, right? I mean, if you have a piece of wood, it's wood. If you have a piece of metal, it's metal. It's not both. It's impossible. Well, guess what if you look at quantum theory and you look at what is an electron well it's it's a particle it's it's

a little thing it's a little piece of a particle that you know moves around it's also a wave both so what's the nature of an electron it's fully particle and fully a wave what is who is jesus christ he is fully god and fully human that's what i mean by harmony i love that so science science has shown that it's not stupid to say that jesus christ is completely divine and completely human it's not wrong it's not it's not ruled out because it's exactly what we hear about a basic unit of physical matter the electron well i'm interested that you picked that example because that was one of my favorite ones in your book as well hence i kind of snuck it into the forward i was like here's just a great example you don't accept the levels of

mystery in science we should be able to accept some level of comparable mystery in theology you know so drawing those connections i think are powerful you know the metaphor you use here i think is is great and i think christ Christians should be on board with it, that if we do science correctly and we do theology correctly, they're going to be in harmony. Now, some people might read your book and differ over your take on science, differ over your particular theological nuance, which is fine. There's probably a time or two I was like, I don't know if I'm with you on that. But the idea of saying these are in harmony when we do it correctly and you lay out models to do it is what I just found so refreshing and insightful

and was honored to do the forward. So folks who are interested in the intersection of science and faith will find Science and Faith in Harmony a wonderful, wonderful read. You're doing great work. Let us know when your third book comes out, and maybe we'll have a conversation about that. But really quickly, did I miss anything in your story that's important you wanted folks to know? No. I mean, what I always like to close with is just a very personal word to the audience, which is if anyone ever tells you, especially if you're a student or a young person interested in science, that you have to choose between science and your Christian faith. That is a satanic lie.

That is not true. Ignore it. Great scientists are Christians. Wonderful Christians can be scientists. There is no just ignore it. Great scientists are Christians. Wonderful Christians can be scientists. There is no, just ignore that. That's a lie that you need to forget about. And I encourage Christians to go into the sciences. That was a mic drop moment. People will remember that's for sure. Pulling no punches. In fact, as you may know, here at Biola, we have a master's. I teach in the apologetics program. We also have a master's as a part of this in science and religion, in which we explore the scientific side. We explore the

theological side. It's an entire, I think it's 37, 39 unit masters, in which we do some basic apologetics, but the focus is on the intersection of science and faith. And it's a very unique program. We have folks like Stephen Meyer, who you mentioned earlier, come out and teach classes for us. If anybody's watching this, first off, pick up Sygard's book and explore it. And then think about joining us at Biola to study apologetics

or get a master's in science and religion to get trained in this. Thoroughly enjoyed this, Cy. I've been looking forward to this for a long time. Thanks for giving me the privilege of writing the foreword for your book. Looking forward to have you back again. Before folks click away, make sure you hit subscribe. We've got some other topics coming up and other conversations you won't want to miss. Cy, we'll do it again. Thanks, my friend. Thank you. It's been great.