The Sean McDowell Show - Why Do Musicians Deconstruct? Newsboys Speak Out!

Episode Date: January 24, 2025

The Newsboys have been one of the most successful and recognizable Christian bands for four decades. What have they learned over their time as leaders in the contemporary Christian music scene? And what are their thoughts on why so many musicians are deconstructing and deconverting from the faith? Is there something wrong with the CCM that needs addressing? In this interview, I talk with lead singer Michael Tait and keyboardist Jeff Frankenstein. Watch the Newsboys recent song: "Heaven on Earth" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saWzY_194jc) Newsboys Latest Album: https://www.newsboys.com. *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [SMDCERTDISC] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: @sean_mcdowell Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org

Why have so many Christian artists deconstructed their faith and become ex-evangelicals? Is there something wrong with the contemporary Christian music scene and evangelicalism as a whole that we need to address? There's perhaps no music band that has been more successful and influential than the Newsboys, founded in 1985, who can give us an inside look at these questions and so much more. Our guests today are Michael Tate, lead singer since 2009, formerly with DC Talk, and Jeff Frankenstein, who's been on keyboard 30 years since 1994. Fellas, it's great to see you again.

Thanks for coming on. Good to be on. Thanks for having us. Well, I want to jump right in and talk about this. You guys, first off, are on tour. So thanks for carving out time in the middle of this. I know how exhausting and tiring that can be. So it means a ton to me and our audience. But I'd love to just start with your journey to faith. Maybe just tell us why are you a believer? Michael, go ahead. I was born in Washington, D.C., son to a pastor, a church planter, and the baby of nine kids, five girls, four boys. And yeah, mom and dad were very, very direct on us.

If you live in the house, you buy your food, you go in the church. Whether you get in late Saturday night or not, your brown butt is going to be up Sunday morning and you're going to be in the pew. Sleeping in the pew or not, you're going to be there. It wasn't drudge and trudge though. It was great. It's a beautiful thing. But it definitely made me see my dad's faith walk instead of just his faith talk. It was amazing amazing and my mom too so but i got saved in high school believe it or not a guy named jerry johnston came to our school in ninth i don't tell you the year years ago years ago i was in 12th grade and he came to our school and he spoke on hell nobody talks about hell much anymore but it turns out it still exists oakville i went forward got saved um my

12th grade year and then went on to liberty university list goes on the story goes on but yes for me it was an amazing time because back then once again they were preaching about you know the difference in you know life after death where are you going to go what's it mean to you you know doing eternally um meaningful so all that hit me at a young age and here we are years later. That's incredible. Now you gave me a softball about making something about there being breakfast in hell, but I'll just let that one go. Taking us way back. That's Frankenstein's era. There you go. Maybe even earlier. Jeff, tell me your story of coming to faith. Yeah, so kind of a similar story to Tate.

My parents were not really Christians when I was super small. My dad was a steel worker, pretty middle class family in Detroit. And through some circumstances at his job with like an accident he had at the plant that he was a foreman at he he retired from that career and and and had like a calling from God went to seminary became a pastor he wasn't like a head pastor of a church yes he was more of like the visitation director the teacher that kind of guy good team and uh yeah and uh so they adopted me i was an adopted kid growing up in a christian family like that and uh you know they were we had a very uh pentecostal church back then in the 80s you probably remember those days i mean um

in detroit was very much of a Catholic tradition in our family. So they were like, my parents were the first ones to kind of branch out into like this new world of like Pentecostalism and all this kind of stuff. And so, you know, it was a little uncomfortable as a teenager with all of like the, you know, all that kind of stuff,

cause you don't really understand what's going on. But they were very good hearted people. Like my parents traveled to Eastern Europe after communism fell and taught churches that were coming out of the underground. And I just saw them really like working in the trenches. You know, there was, they were the same people on stage at church as they were off you know it was really uh great to see I think that was a big influence on whether

or not I wanted to be a Christian myself um so I was in a Christian like high school very conservative like ultra conservative high school and I went from that to a very secular university in Detroit. And that was like a big like left turn. I got to see like a real world without anybody telling me, you know, what it should be or whatever. And I think that's when I really realized that Christianity made a lot of sense at that point for me after what I had witnessed there.

And then it was very interesting from that at 19 years old, long story short, a friend of mine asked me to be the runner at a newsboy show, which is like the guy who drives the band around during the day, you know, I'm sure from your dad's days. That's how I met the guys um little did i know that my friends were talking me up as a keyboard player behind the scenes to the guys and uh three months later they were looking for a keyboard player and remembered me and so i got a cold call to my house at 19 years old back in 1994 and they said would you want to audition with the band so within the course of about a week I auditioned with the band uh moved to Nashville dropped out of college uh and hit the road and

that was like 30 almost 31 years ago so your story is way more more exciting than mine mine seems kind of boring in comparison I love it now Jeff just Jeff, just really quickly. My dad was like the first Christian speaker. He traveled with Texas World Tour. And your dad and Newsboys, we went to probably 40 small towns in Texas. Wow. And just went wherever we could, high school, gyms, and your dad would do his thing. And then at the end of that tour, we capped it off with a big show at the Houston Astrodome.

And I think it still might hold the record for the largest like hard ticket kind of events in that place for my time yeah it was like one of the many times we played it before they were officially supposed to tear it down that's incredible I didn't know that we met way back then and I'm a couple years younger like a high school college kid whatever it was but I it's so fun to see you guys. We could reminisce forever. But I really want to know your thoughts on this because I know it concerns you as it does me, just the flood of deconstruction, deconversion. And of course, this isn't just an

issue with the contemporary Christian music. It goes far beyond that. But I'd love your insights on this. And I know some of this is personal to many of you in ways I don't know, whether it's former people from DC Talk, the co-founder of Newsboys saying he's an atheist, jars of clay going a certain leftward direction. I don't know where they're at spiritually. Hawk Nelson, John Steingard's a good friend of mine. So I understand there's a personal element of there. I'm not asking you to weigh in on individuals, but I'd love just your sense of why we're hearing so many stories of musicians deconstructing, deconverting from their faith

over the past few years. Do you have a sense of what's at the root of it? Michael, let me start with you. Man is innately flawed. Man has free will. A lot of people struggle. I'll say myself. As a matter of fact, I just wrote a forward on a friend's book. A guy named Dave Stovall was writing a book

about deconstructing and how he kind of did the whole gamut and came back around to the reality that God is not dead. He's alive and roaring like a lion, to borrow the words from our song, in the heart of every believer. But we have this free will thing that the angels don't have, Sean. given to our not better side, we can sometimes be tempted to go off in doubt, wonder, curiosities of life that can kill the cat, you know? And I have friends that have gone that way, as you know, as a lot of people know, and doubt's a real thing.

There are times I lay in my bunk on the bus, we're driving down the road to another show. As you know, we tour all the time. And I'm asking God's question, asking God's question, I'm asking God questions. And some from the outside looking into my brain, I think, is he deconstructing what's going on? He's doubting.

He said, no, but sometimes you have to search in the word for the things that are hidden for us, not from us. When I start to doubt, it makes me dig deeper. It makes me say, it makes my prayers even more intense. Like, God, show me your glory today. Speak to my heart today, God. Give me, since when am I path to show me, you know, that, hey, I'm still on this path and that this matters and that you got my back, God. So I understand how it can happen because man is flawed. Man has free, and man wanders. But at the same time, for me and my house, so to speak,

I'm gonna believe and trust God. And probably now as I've gotten older and I've had more experiences in life, it makes me go deeper. It doesn't mean, I don't wanna run away from it. It makes me, I start feeling like, Lord, this is okay, I feel like I'm losing grip here. What's up?

You know, I have to go in harder because, like every other person, Lord, this is okay. I feel like I'm losing grip here. What's up? You know, I have to go in harder because like every other person, Sean, we all have this pursuit of holiness, which will not be attained till we get to glory. But in the meantime, the dots are going to be there. The temptations are going to be there. The stumbles and blunders are going to be there. What if I stumble? What if I fall? All those things, they're going to be there what if i stumble what if i fall all those things they're going to be there but the question is where are we going to be during those times i love that recognition before i come to you jeff that you have doubts and you have questions because so many times when i see people deconstruct and deconvert it's like they never had space to ask questions never had doubt and it just rocks them and so i think you saying that given your position can be freeing for people. Yes.

Jeff, what's your take? Yeah. I mean, firstly, I would say that, you know, I think as Christians, we've made a lot of grave errors when we react to hearing about other believers deconstructing. And I feel like a lot of what we've said is, you know, we've started with judgment first, you know, instead of approaching the situation with compassion. And I think for me, like when I hear another story come out or whatever,

like the first thing I'm thinking is it's a compassionate response. Like, all right, I'm going to put myself in this guy's shoes. I don't I have no idea what's happening here, what this person has been through, what their history is. And it's not even my job to speculate or judge this person. Like, you know, I, I look at it and deep down inside, it makes me sad. I mean, for me, I think it stems from a lot of different things.

I mean, because I know, you know, so many believers that get to certain points in their life that really have, for lack of a better term, like a come to Jesus moment where like, I think the 80s and 90s culturally was such a different time that it's hard to explain it to younger people now. But like, you know, like my wife and I were both pastor's kids. And my wife, you know, had a very, you know, a difficult like childhood with like things just being forced to be a certain way where you weren't given that free will to decide for yourself, you know. So when you get to a point where you can, you're free will to decide for yourself.

So when you get to a point where you can, you're like Christianity can seem like it was just this thing of it's not liberating. It's just trying to control you. That's what you think. And it's not setting you free because you've just by rules and regulations. Maybe you haven't seen like the true spirit of god um in that and i think a lot of it like our culture it's very uh isolating you know i think uh having people around you to just be yourself that like see the person you really are is is a great thing like um i think social

media and the internet and just the the information that's allowed to go unchecked into our minds sometimes can be a factor of that. And then the number one thing I think is hypocrisy. Like I think Christians, we are guilty of being very hypocritical. I think if there was the number one thing that probably turns anybody away from Christianity or Christians is hypocrisy. And so when I read stories or whatever, it's like what Tate was saying, I have to look inside myself first and say,

am I being the type of friend, the type of Christian, the type of leader, the type of dad, the type of whatever it may be christian the type of leader the type of dad the type of you know whatever it may be that's bringing people to the lord you know when it comes to judgment i always feel like god doesn't need us to judge these people like he is the judge he you know i i kind of decide of maybe digging deeper how can i be a better friend did i fail this person in some way and uh i think that's that's a good way to to look at it you're speaking of hypocrisy i think about that when paul

was talking about being the chief of centers and stuff and i said that from stage a lot of times not to be like a superhero christian or like a uh anything weird but like there's a quote we had shown back on the fruit in the jesusak days that Brennan Manning said, the number one cause of atheism in the world, atheism in the world today are Christians who confess Jesus with their mouth and walk out the door and deny them by their lifestyle. That's what a unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable. And that thing just saying to me now brings me to tears.

It quips my heart because there have been times I have just, I have just desecrated the, the, the, the, the walk, if you will, I've messed up and, you know, and there's times you say, beat you up a vibe. The thing is, do you get back up? Do you, do you, do you go to first John one nine and say, Lord, I've been a bad example. You know, we confess since he's faithful just to forgive us our sins, but that's all a part of it too. I think people fall into that place of craziness and never come out of it. So they deconstruct.

They're like, you know what? I suck. This sucks. It never worked. I'm out of here. And that's one entryway into deconstructism, I believe. That's fair. There's a ton of stuff you guys said

that I want to lean into and get your thoughts on. But one concern I have, not just for the CCM, but for churches and for speakers, is that we often value competence and giftedness over character and depth. And I wonder how much within CCM, because it's a business, you've got to sell albums and tickets to concerts. Do you see attention or a tendency to say, well, I don't really know where this person stands theologically, but let's just put them on stage that favors giftedness over depth and theology. One reason we maybe hear so many stories now, decades later. Michael, go ahead. What do you think on that? Or Jeff, either of you sure i mean i think when you especially in ccm and churches when you mix business with theology

and they both have to coexist in this world there's that's a ripe um place for hypocrisy a breeding ground yeah and bitterness and even within artists you you know, like, I think a lot of artists come in with incredibly come to Nashville with incredibly good intentions with a call from the Lord and they, and they come to town with a plan and they're greeted with a business. That's got like a lot of industry people. Now there are wonderful people in the industry, just like any other industry, but there's a pattern that you see happen. And it happens in pop music too, where like this pure thing that you brought to the table now has to be marketed and manipulated and put

into the system with these gatekeepers that control it. And then profits have to be made on the other side for it to continue to grow in a certain way. And you kind of, it loses its innocence or whatever. And that artist, you know, you can see where like, they're like, what is happening? Like, what is this thing? And it's the same thing with churches and pastors. You know, a pastor who comes into a church, well, all of a sudden you've got to, you know, the tithes are down or the the attendance is down so do we compromise what we say in order to bring in more people and you know like at the end of the day like you know the Bible is

pretty clear that the road is narrow it's not a wide road and so I have to be reminded of that and but like we said before like i can't control everything or everyone you know i can control myself thank god and about the things that are right within my grasp so it'd be arrogant for me to say that like i'm gonna change everything you know it's gotta be all of us as believers like being um the person who we say we are and if we're not admitting when we're wrong or even admitting when we don't know I think that's a big one too you know like one thing I always respected about my dad growing up was that he he never acted like he knew everything he was a pastor but like he

didn't know something or he couldn't answer your question he would at least give you your time give you his time yeah or your ear you know what i mean and like i saw my dad you know i saw him do prison ministry you know every single week he would drive to some prison and yeah like a bunch of people there was some prison that he met for with every weekend for like 40 years the guys who were like murderers who had like no one else, who's all their family had passed away and they were still in prison. My dad would go meet with them every week.

Being that person who you say you are is big. And I think now we're on bigger stages, pastors are on bigger stages so when they mess up it's a bigger fallout you know they don't pastors and and leaders and even artists and all that we don't necessarily have the personal connections that we did because everything is online it's digital it's big it's huge it's arenas you know i look back at the success that newsboys had throughout those decades and, you know, it was it was built on personal relationships.

And even tonight, you know, play the show, we'll meet, you know, people before the show and after the show and guests and whatever. You know, everyone's got a personal story. Like they all say, Oh, I met you in this year and you shook my hand and you talked to me like we've lost so much of that in our culture and just in general that, you know, I think that plays into why we're so quick to judge and easily distracted from the, you know,

from that road, that narrow road that we're talking about. And what he mentioned earlier too, I gotta go back to that. What's so wise, Sean, it's true. That's something as a lead singer for DC Talk and my tape band now Newsboys, which I love. It's been a fight, man, because there are days I wake up and as you mentioned,

it's like, you gotta remember why we do this. People wanna worship the fact that, put you on a pedestal, this guy's voice or his personality or stage performance or whatever he does. It's like they worship the created, not the creator. And that's the complete opposite of what you want to portray. Obviously, put out there. It's not what we're here for. So we should be mirrors.

But there are days we struggle with wanting the attention and wanting the glory. And those days are my worst days. I want to just go and jump into a lake and just not come back up. So I'm like, what did you do, T tate you just you just you just lost that man and um there are times even even this week two days ago i'm at my house and i'm looking at you know i'm thinking about the month and the years winding down and it was i believe it was the innocent honest effort to look at okay we don't have show wise what i have bill wise what's going to happen you know you know kind of figure out the violence violence the rest of the year finances and i started looking at shows as okay well i could pay for

this i'm getting me count my pays you know i went there being honest sean and i thought but what about the people there what about people that are coming that are hungry and sad and broken and and a racist in our in our in divorced and are, you know, whatever. Alternate lifestyles, whatever. That's what my mind should have been. But I was counting the coins. Once again, those are a very real thing. And the Lord gave me this platform and, you know, we make a living from it also.

But I never want to forget that, man, because my dad was a soul winner. He was a stickler. Life versus Proverbs 1130. The fruit of the righteous is the tree of life, and he that winneth souls is wise. to forget that man because my dad was a soul winner he was a stickler my first was proverbs 11 30 the fruit of the righteous is the tree of life and he that when his souls is wise my dad didn't give a rat's butt about anything that wasn't about the business of god sometimes he was too heavily money was normally good i would say sometimes because he was an old school preacher he's like you know if you know if your back was like you're not praying enough. You know, you're not drinking enough water. You know, he always had these answers.

But the thing is, my dad loved the Lord, knew the Lord, followed the Lord, and lived the Lord. So that's something that's missing in the culture. I'm getting on another subject now. But God is missing nowadays. It's just kind of like, you know, we're just so caught up in the here and now and what's in front of us. And there's no projection is looking looking to the future is no like planning for the fact that, you know, what's how this is going to affect things people us

eternally beyond today, October 25. So I wonder how you guys keep yourselves or try to keep yourself grounded. You're on tour, you have audiences, you're on stage. It's different for me You're on tour, you have audiences, you're on stage. It's different for me, but written books, people have stories about meeting me or meeting my dad. They want autographs and it's so easy to start believing the hype.

Now I have ways I navigate this, but since I'm interviewing you guys, I get to throw it to you. And I'm really curious, how do you, Jeff, let me come to you. How do you try to keep that grounded when you've got millions of people watching you online and, you know, on and on being a quote rock star? Yeah, I think, um, you know, the way I would probably explain it is when you first start out, like that stuff is really, you know, fascinating. Like, wow,

people really care about me or they you know whatever you know and it's it is awesome it's cool it's very humbling that people would even care enough to one of them see it because I know who I really am and I think there's a couple things for us as a band you know number one we all live in one bus with the entire band, the entire crew, management people. And there's- Keeps you humble.

There is no hierarchy in there. When you walk into our bus, we are all 100% equals. We all have a bunk. We can go wherever you want. There's no walking on eggshells because of this guy or that guy. It's one big happy family and uh and and it makes our crew feel comfortable it makes us feel comfortable i mean

we've got crew guys that have been with us for 20 years you know we're a happy family everyone gets treated the same um the other thing too it's like you know i have uh the benefit you know i've been married for 20 almost 25 years. I have four kids, another one on the way. They're still small. You know, when I get off the road and I walk in the front door, life is completely the opposite of what it is when I'm on tour. You know, I walk in the door and I'm unclogging the toilet. I might get handed a newborn. You just never know what's going to happen. And, you know, my wife does not, I do not get any brownie points from my wife for being a rock star on the weekend. You know, she thinks, you know, which is,

which is great. You know, like those are the people that can tell you the truth about, you know, you stink or you said that or you did that, you know, I think I've always said, you know, you, if you're in the music industry or an entertainer, the best thing to do, like take what you make really seriously, but, you know, don't take yourself seriously because, you know, what God has, he's given us the coolest jobs you could ever wish for, you know, it's, it is really incredible us the coolest jobs you could ever wish for. You know, it is really incredible. Like some days I'm like, really?

I can just wave at that person and it makes their day and makes them happy. And I get to play music and like bring people some comfort for like an hour and a half at night when they're, you know, just trying to get away from their difficult life or their difficult job or whatever their circumstances are at home you know like that's an incredible opportunity never take that for granted and even when we were shut down for a couple years with covid man like i've always felt like after touring for like 25 years and then not doing the show for two years it made you really realize what's important in life and how awesome this gig really is so now every night you know i really i am very uh attuned to where people are and trying to give them a little extra time 100 frank and all that stuff and honestly sean that's why we're still here it's not because we're better than any other band it's just because we put that effort in in our fans they they were they they

remember those times. That's awesome. Let me go back to you on this one, Michael. I'm curious. You mentioned earlier about having doubts and laying in bed sometimes. How do you, given that your livelihood and given that your profession and your reputation is tied to being a part of the newsboys. If you question certain things, you can no longer be part of the newsboys. And given that you have a big platform, there'd be huge fallout from this.

Now, before you answer that, I get it. I'm a McDowell. I teach at Biola University. Like it's the same dynamic for me. So I have to navigate this in a little bit of a different way. But how do you, I mean, what does it look like practically to just say, I can have certain doubts, not others. Do you commit in your mind? Like, honestly, if I had certain beliefs, I would follow that and stop doing what I'm doing. Do you have people that you talk with?

How do you navigate when those questions come in, given what's at stake, discouraging you from entertaining those questions come in given what's at stake discouraging you from entertaining those questions people in my life i have a a pastor michael guido who's been in my life since dc talk 30 plus years and uh he's a talker but he's also a man about the word and manny i mean jeff you know you pray with this talk with us and i just dump it on a man. And I think doubt is healthy sometimes. I believe when Peter got on that boat, a believer and a follower and a lover of Jesus Christ, and he walked on that. Look at me. I'm doing this thing.

I'm actually doing this thing. In his bunk, he doubted. He started sinking. But God knew his heart, knew where his head was. He said, come on, come on, son, I got you. I got you. Whether it be God directly, the word directly, or a pastor in my life, those are my lifelines.

But the fact is, once again, we are flawed. We're human. It's going to happen. We don't need to fear that or be afraid of that or wonder we've lost our salvation. It's a bunch of baloney. We are saved by grace through faith and that's it. And sometimes it's just hard to believe, but thank God it's true. People in your life, that makes a lot of sense. I think that's valuable.

This question, I'm curious how you guys will answer it. Do you think there's something about just being an artist that invites a kind of rebellion and challenging against like limits and lines? Because I was an athlete in college. I'm a philosopher. I'm logical thinking I'm not the most creative person. I'll just own it. Is that a piece of what's going on in the CCM that we've heard so many stories that if you're just a musician, you're just wired a certain way? How much does that play into it? I believe 100% because it's like creatively, it's like my creativity works in every area of my life, whether I want it to or not. Okay, I'll leave it there.

My point is you can't just shut it off. It's kind of who you are and what you do, you know? It's kind of your creative brain. So your mind goes there on every level. Definitely. I think there's, you know, a different part of your brain that's just always it's hard to turn off yeah that it's hard to explain to people that have other kinds of jobs you know like um and yeah i mean to even think you could you know play an instrument as your job for a living.

You've gotta think out, you've gotta be thinking outside the box. And that's, you know, Nashville is a good place to live because there's so many like-minded people that understand your line of work when you walk into a place and they say, what do you do? I'm a musician.

Like when I grew up in Detroit, if you said that to somebody- They'd laugh at you, they'd laugh at you. You know, like your path is through university and then it's through the auto industry. And if you said that you were going to be a creative artist, you're just like, well, what are you going to do for money? You know, something like that. But yeah. And that's the way God made us. You know, we can't change that. Like and I think you're right. Like we're always

trying to push the boundaries of what's you know whether it's like music or you know what we can create or like even you know like we spend a lot of time just sitting on the bus just dreaming like ideas of what we want to do and we have a lot of time together where like in the course of like a nine to five type job like you work with these people and you go home well like we're up till three in the morning on the bus like well what if we did this or what if we did that or like especially jeff you know ideas of how to make things better or a little bit about you know dreaming big you know newsboys have always dreamed way bigger than what we were actually able to do well even in the bible the bible talking about we go back to the bible days um when satan you know

attacked you know musicians or attacked that wasn the Bible days when Satan, you know, attacked, you know, musicians or attacked, it was a musician. And this whole thing, I think it's all part of that. Your philosopher, Sean, teach us. But like, it's just something that's connected there, man, that we're a little crazy in the brain. If it's not bridled by the Holy Spirit, it can go a wire really quick because we are creative minds and satanuity attacked it. And I still believe today, man, that's why music is a powerful force in the world. Plants love music. Animals love music. Of course, humans love music. Music has changed and can change and will change the world as time goes on. Still will, still will. But yeah, it's, I don't know.

I'd like to know your thoughts on that. Fair enough. We'll come back to that because I got a ton more questions for you guys. So I'm curious how you would respond to this. One of my concerns about evangelicalism as a whole is that there's such an emphasis on feeling and experience. I mean, we talk about like somebody who's on fire. That means they're like emotionally full rather than the Bible really talks about obedience and faithfulness and using your gifts. And so a friend of mine, a former Christian musician, he said, he described through his

period of deconstruction, he said, one of the things that hit him was he realized he could have the same experience of God at a Coldplay concert. And I have so many thoughts on that. And I was curious, do you share the concern that there's an overemphasis on emotionalism? And how would you respond to somebody who says that? Because I think there's a lot of people potentially come into your concert feeling like, I don't experience God in my regular life, but when I go to a Newsboys concert, that's when I uniquely experience God. And it can foster this idea that it's only in those emotionally high moments that I experience God. Tell me your thoughts, Jeff.

I think having a relationship with God is something where you're constantly in contact, in prayer, in so many different areas than what you're talking about, than just this sensationalized events or whatever. And yeah, I would agree with you. I think that's probably really dangerous as a Christian to function that way. I think we've always made it really clear that like, we, a lot of what we do is entertainment

because that's- No question. That God gave us is to is you know so i always feel like there are you know different categories of people that come to our show some don't have never even heard the gospel didn't even know there was such thing as christian music and they're like what in the world um there's other people that they just want to get out of the house for the night and be entertained and then there's other people that saw the movie there's other people that come that are like um want to have that really deep spiritual thing that that you're just talking about and um you know i i do feel

like you know you know the bible does talk about there's power when people come together more than two people are gathered together in his name and And there are, there is something like, I've never been a sensationalist. You know, I was probably like what you said, like, you know, when my parents had the Pentecostal church as a kid, I always felt really uncomfortable. I was always the guy that was like in the front and you probably were like, this is a kid too, Sean. But like always like second guessing, you know, like, you know, there would be like banners and flags, you know, and and some pretty hefty claims made from the pulpit about, you know, whether it was like prophecies or whatever.

And I'm just like as a kid looking at all that saying, well, how do we really know what's true or how do we know what is just this guy up there who wants to rile everybody up you know and i think it's you know um it you could look back on that stuff and be like uh you know i just don't want any part of that yeah that's just really freaky or you could say no there's something to that it might not have all been legit but i saw enough things that were legit that i can't deny that yeah that it's you go on that and so yeah i think like you know what tape we keeps coming back to you know there's a human element involved we're very uh emotional people so we can be emotionally

manipulated easily and i think as leaders it's have to be in check that they aren't just like almost like politicians just saying the right key phrases to get everybody because inherently, you know, human beings are sheep. You know, we we need to be sure that you know what's coming out is grounded in truth and and reality and it's not just something to just rile people up because that's the easy way to go you know it's like when you go to you see a political rally and like you know someone might say even we we check each other on this stuff all the time, like it could be after a show and I'll be like, Tate, I don't know, you said something between the songs there or whatever.

It's like, yeah, you could say one thing because you know people will cheer and, you know, it's the easy thing to say. Or you could try to, you know, ask God, like, you know, what do you have, Lord, for this crowd? What do you want them to hear? And I think that that's the difference. There's an easy way to do it.

And then there's a different way that takes a little bit more work. Funny you mentioned all that too, because I had a friend come to the show last night, John, a friend in the family. And he said, man, I was so revived at the concert tonight. Tate, thanks so much. And like, nothing makes me happy to be used as a conduit,

a catalyst, you know, because they were like, it's great, but hopefully he goes home last night and went to work today and he was still revived. Nothing makes me happy to be used as a conduit, a catalyst, you know, because they were like, it's great. But hopefully he goes home last night and went to work today and he was still revived. And it's because I can't be your, you know, I'm not your Jesus Christ. I can't be your what? I'm not. I can be a chili and a spark plug. But you've got to know Christ.

Search for your own soul salvation. You've got to do it yourself. But also, too, back a little funny note. Coldplay, I believe it is worship for me. I love Coldplay in many ways. But yes, are they Bible-toting, gospel-preaching? No. Hopefully they know the Lord. I pray that he knows the Lord and the whole band does because I like him a lot.

But it's not your church morning service. I know that now. But in some ways, I feel I get emotional at Coldplay concerts. They're pretty amazing. Yeah. I mean, there's no denying thatplay concerts. They're pretty amazing. Yeah, I mean, there's no denying that, you know, whether you're a Christian artist or a non-Christian artist, the gifts of music and bringing people together,

that creativity comes from the creator or, you know, there's just no way. You too. You can't deny it. Some songs are just so beautiful and so well done and, like put together that if it's good art, it's good. Yeah, yeah. And don't get me started. We could do another whole show, Sean, on what worship is because I still think the song Jesus Fickets worship. It doesn't always have to be, you know, God's on this horse and the sun shines Jesus.

That's what we say in our little corporate little world of worship but worship to me is you love your wife you you uh hearing a song it could be it could one thing it could be a youtube song they could take you put your eyes and thoughts on god it's who would you say what worship is well we could have that conversation i'd be fascinated at some point i think you're right about I don't I think the point was less specifically Coldplay. I know some of their songs. I don't know a lot of depth about them. But the idea that you're right on one level, there's something that we crave for an experience with many people. There's something about music that's transcendent, but for a lot of people who associate experiencing God in worship with that experience, and then they can get it elsewhere that seems the same, there's a jarring disconnect, I think, for some people. Well said.

I get what you're saying, yes. That's the only point, but I take your point. Somewhat of a quicker question for you guys, just kind of, unless you want to nuance it, people often ask me about deconstruction stories, whether it's apologists, evangelists, pastors, and they all break my heart. And I say, the ones who get the press, there's a hundred faithful people that are not getting the story. I mean, no one writes a story on me and I'm not upset about it. I'm not saying they should, but the son of an apologist who has a similar ministry, it's not going to get the headlines. Newsboys, these two members and beyond, stay faithful to Jesus 30 years. As a whole, would you say the same is true in the music industry,

that there are some prominent names and there's some issues we could talk about, but behind the scenes, there's far more who are just plugging away following jesus trying to serve them is that your experience in ccm as a whole oh for sure like i was saying earlier i you know i feel like you know the musicians are the vast majority of fellow colleagues that we know in other bands are, you know, some of our greatest friends. Stephen Winick, Jr.: No two ways about it. Sean Hine, Jr.: With just beautiful hearts, you know, so, you know, and we've toured with everyone, Sean,

over the years, so you could probably write a book on that, you know, and yeah, I mean, every musician, that's one thing I love about being in a band like this is like every time you do a tour, you end that tour with like 30 new friends. Yes, you do. Whoever's out there. And even when there's the opening bands or the crew,

I mean, we've got a band from Canada that's been out with us all year. And like, I'm going to miss them when they're gone. So like, I think it's just inherently in musicians they're I've found them to be pretty gentle uh kind people in general and uh for Canadians especially I'm gazing I I love that. Let me ask you guys this question. Oh, I just lost my track here. There was one I want to specifically ask you.

Give me one second. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. What advice would you give to aspiring young musicians? Spiritual advice. What advice for those who are looking and seeing some who've deconstructed how would you coach or incur encourage younger people who are thinking about going big or small in a similar vein that you guys have done go ahead michael for me i would just say you have to start with the foundation i would say just you know your gift will make room for you and bring you before great men you know great venues are all you know go on and say great people whatever but for me it's i've got to get in that word i don't get in the word sean if i don't have

that in me whether i'm a doctor a pilot or a musician it's just it's going to be shaky foundation so i've got to have a solid foundation um there's some cracks in it yes and there are times you have to stop and and you know fix that crack you know move on but that's got to be the the basis of spiritual something for any any kind of success at all for that for me i think because you're in the business of you know of sharing the word through music the gospel it's powerful and you're a the business of sharing the word through music. The gospel, it's powerful. And you're a carrier of that, a blessed carrier. Also, I would say on a personal level or physical level, hone your art.

Work hard at it. And don't ever despise who you are. If you're singing for a youth group or a bar mitzvah or a wedding, you do it with everything in your being and bones, because that's where God has you. When Toby and I started DC Talk years ago, we played, oh my gosh, barbershops. I played bingo. I played bingo halls a couple times.

It was crazy, but the gospel was there. But I believe you have to be in it, sing it. My dad would always say, boy, if you don't mean it, don't sing it. And so we have to believe in what you're that's just a thought yeah good stuff so do you guys think we should listen to christian songs from people who have either defected from the faith or are now heretics and i say this because i'm not going to mention anybody in particular. I'm not interested in that, but probably two or three of my all-time favorite songs, Christian songs, 80s forward, are from people now who either would not identify as Christians or just embrace ideas that I would say from the historical Christian faith are heretical. Should we listen to those songs?

What's your take on that? I'd love to hear what you think jeff what do you think yeah i think if the song was like contained truth and was written in a time where that that person was in a different place and it rings true and it's a great song i mean i don't really have no problem i have no problem with that. Yeah, I think a good song, if it contains truth, at the time it was written, that doesn't- Maybe this analogy will help us. My dad told me one time years ago, he said, "'Son, an unbeliever can lead someone to the Lord.'"

I thought, dad, is that true? And I don't know your thoughts on that, but not to get too deep here, but he says, he goes, you can have an unbeliever come to my, and they share the gospel. Gospel won't come back void. It's powerful.

So, you know, it's like, it's the same bricks that build a brothel can build a church. It's not the bricks, it's what happens inside the bricks. Yeah. So there's a lot of thought there. Yeah, that's interesting.

Certainly God can use an unbeliever to draw someone to the Lord. I would not disagree with that. I mean, I'm not making a comparison with an unbeliever here, but God speaks in a range of different ways, including a donkey in the book of Numbers. Exactly, yeah.

Communicate. I guess I was just saying, you were saying about the whole thing of, you know, where that person was when they wrote that song, you know, To God Be the Glory by John Doe. And all of a sudden John Doe goes a wire and that song still touches you and your family. It was like Bob Dylan back in the day

when he had his gospel records. I remember that was some of the first Christian music I ever heard as a kid. Yeah, he did like a full-on gospel. I don't know if you remember those records. I don't remember that. They were full-on, almost like Larry Norman norman style there there was a guy larry norman and uh and i remember like i was like what in the world like you know in my you know seeing where dylan had come from

and all that kind of stuff so i was like yeah i mean i obviously had an experience at that time i think as i'm thinking about the only distinction I might make is like privately listening to this versus publicly proclaiming it, given where that person is now. I might make a distinction there, but I'm with you guys on your point. I'd love to know, do either of you have just a favorite song that the newsboys have performed either when you were there or in the past that's just most meaningful to you that you love that speaks to you in a different way or i mean you can really answer that however you want to and if there's not that's totally fine too but is there one you go i just i love this song for

whatever reason uh jeff what do you think uh there's actually a song that we're playing right now and we were just talking about tate and I were talking about this last night. It's actually probably the most favorite, one of the most favorite songs we've ever played, Color. Stephen Winick, Jr.: Oh, yes. Tate Goudsparrow, Jr.: It's on the new record, and we have a part in our show where we all kind of come down front real close to the crowd, and, you know, it's kind of an acoustic-y storyteller style song, but,

you know, it, you know, Tate can speak to it probably better than I can. He wrote it, but it's, you know, we're in that kind of unique position where we all in this band come from different parts of either different parts of the country or world or, you know, different, you know, colors of skin, if you haven't noticed by now, but like been through different pathways to come together as a band. And the song kind of sums up, you know, like during the show,

you know, like we were talking about that experience and people there and, you know, it kind of talks about what heaven's going to be like. Stephen Winick, Jr.: Yeah, and have we forgotten the fact that God did this and he wasn't colorblind. He did it on purpose. He knew exactly what he was doing. He made Jeff a little,

we were all actually closer to him than Duncan. But no, but he knew what he was doing. So the beauty of the human race, I often say, Sean is found in the diversity. But we fight and we bicker and we moan. And I'm like, guys, this is a picture of heaven. Get used to it if you're going there because it's not gonna change.

Yeah, I think it resonates too, especially in this fall, picture of heaven. Get used to it if you're going there because it's not gonna change. Yeah, I think it resonates too, especially in this fall, this election year. Oh man. And just under the constant assault of divisive rhetoric that's just aimed at trying to really make people focus on what we don't have in common instead of what we do. And we're never gonna perfectly see eye to eye, but it's talking about, yeah, anyway,

you have to hear the song. It doesn't really do me justice. Do yourself a favor, listen to it. It's called Color. It's called Color, yeah. But I'll say for me, and you're gonna give me a hard time, Jeff, but I can never just do one.

When I go to a restaurant, Sean, I order like five different appetizers because I want to taste a little bit of everything. That's my crazy brain. But I would say for me probably a star-worth one for me is what we believe because it's like the believer's creed, man. It's everything that I stand on that we stand on. And even in times of doubt and temptation, it doesn't change the fact that God's word still stands will stand and has to for years and

centuries and uh that's that's my future that's our future so that to me is a bible song that but also love he reigns and god's not dead okay i'll stop fair enough well for what it's worth i think i'd have to pick entertaining angels oh yeah. Oh, yeah. It's a classic. I thoroughly enjoy that song. I won't go into why. It was part of like the first Christian movie, Extreme Days, way back in the day. Oh, wow. Okay, yeah.

So you're on tour right now. You have a two-part album called Worldwide Revival, released in 2024. 22nd album, which is amazing on so many levels i was listening to the song heaven on earth and just not only is it a great classical newsboy sound it's so catchy it was theologically robust i mean it says jesus is the way the truth and the only or i'm sorry the truth the life the only way and then there's this line that says, prophecies were coming true. I'm like, preach it.

There's some theological depth. You guys are weaving in apologetics. Tell us about this new album and just what's unique about it and what people should know and why they should check it out. Michael, go ahead. We grew up in a time period, well, I'm off the page now, the 70s and 80s when tent revivals were still a big deal. And my dad did a lot of those in La Plata, Maryland, Upper Marlboro, Maryland, and D.C. And we got these, we leave the city with a bunch of mostly African-Americans and I go to the country and meet a bunch of white people. And it was always like,

I was a nine, 10 year old kid, like, who are these people? What's going on? And some of them were flag carriers, no snake handlers, but flag you know it just excited you know tent meeting but it always hit me like how powerful that was because revival starts people think revival yeah it starts it can start in a family it can start with a kid it can start with you know um uh two people meeting again and it can blow up but it has to start somewhere and why not let it start in our hearts to let it start in our in our you know in our churches in our neighborhoods you know we can't go across the street we can go across the world i think it should be the opposite but all that said that song came about and really sparked the whole record because we were like let's just call it what it is we can keep it fun we can keep it news boys we can keep it rocking the beauty of the great

white open oh that's funny great but man the message was meant to be that we we worked hard on that song and and i wanted to really put the account of the church started you know the fire came hit the upper room and when when tongues were spoken and things were happening and the church was started that was um i don't see magical town but that was an amazing time um for the for time for the believer. And to capture all that in a song called Heaven on Earth was kind of tough, you know? And the second verse talking about the spirit,

when the spirit came down and the fire and all that stuff, it's like, it's all powerful, but it's all a part of our faith. And you don't hear that a lot more, much in CCM songs, you know? But that's gospel. And I remember the day I wrote that lyric laying in my car, driving home.

I was like, we had the melody. Da, da, da, da, da. Da, da, da, da, da, da. I was like, what can we do? And I was like, Jesus is the way. He's the only way. And I thought, it sounded kind of like, what my friends think of that lyric.

It's kind of, you know, cheese. It's kind of cool. I thought that. I thought, I don't give a rat's butt. I'm going to put it in there because it's the Bible. It's the truth. So what you hit, what you said just makes me happy because that's what God put in our hearts at that moment. Right. And it's like, that's, it never comes back void. The word. Amen. I love it. So last question for you guys, there was an article in the gospel coalition by Brett McCracken, friend of mine actually used to

be at Biola. And he was highlighting how Christian music was the fourth largest growing music genre in the first quarter of 2024. And the share of millennials and young listeners jumped 6% since 2022. Do you all sense a spiritual awakening among younger millennials or Gen Zers that's different from previous generations? And it's okay if you don't. I'm not looking for you to say anything that you don't sense. But from where you sit, do you sense a kind of awakening in that sense? Or no, I'm curious your take.

Go ahead, Jeff. Yeah, no, I think we are going to see some changes in Christian music going forward. I think, you know, probably yourself and me and Tate, like, you know, being in those 90s years, you know, you might remember, like, in the 90s, we had such a wider variety of artists. You know, there were just bands everywhere and artists in all different genres.

Like, it was so cool and so, like, diverse and so interesting. And then I feel like, well, just like in other industries, you know, everything just bought up each other and everyone bought up each other. And then, like, the, you know, kind of the industry really just demands certain things that they want to, you know, promote. But then at the same time i think that kind of sterilized christian music in the last you know no question about it where it doesn't have that that so much like the artists are still out there but now they're trying they're desperately

trying to figure out ways to be heard you know so they've you know a lot a lot of it was maybe like wow we have social media on our side and we have the internet on our side so we can try to find other ways to reach our audience. What will radio play? Do we fit radio? Will radio like us? And so I think there's been a struggle, but now I think we're starting to see

a lot of artists break through in non-traditional ways and reach new audiences that I haven't seen in a long time. So I'm very, I think that's a great thing because I think there's a lot of I wouldn't say frustrated, but there's there are a lot of great artists out there that have just been kind of shut out. And like even when you go back to your question about what would you say to a new artist? I think a lot of Christian artists want to display that kind of honesty

and openness, but they feel pigeonholed. Like either they have to go traditional CCM path, you know, that just says certain things to get accepted, or they have to go into a mainstream world where they get judged because, oh, they're not Christian enough or blah, blah, blah. So I think we're going to see like somewhere in the middle. And I think it's really going to be great. We've seen it happen with some artists that are friends of ours

that don't, haven't even had to rely on the traditional means to tour or radio or all these things and are doing great. So I would hope that like what you said, it continues to grow, but in a healthy way. And that's, you know, hopefully there's more outlets. You would think like in 2024, there would be more outlets, but there's less, you know? So hopefully that trend starts going

in a different direction. But it's good to hear that statistic show on 6%. That makes me happy. Cause I mean, we, when our shows now, we were talking a few weeks ago about how we are now at the age where we have the mom who came when they are when they were the kids the 13 year old kids age and then their mom is here who's the grandma and she's 65. it's like whoa you know we've been around for a while so to see that yeah but yeah a youth a youth youth involvement um is very important for anything to

live whether it be a church or bands past, you got to have that youth to keep it alive because you know the whole story. This is a good note to wrap up on. I have a million more questions for you guys, but thanks for carving out an hour. I know how crazy it is being on tour and what those, you know, getting ready for tonight. We can do a part two, Sean. We'll do a part two sometime. I would love it.

And I'd say any way, big or small, I can help you guys. Seriously, if it goes through your mind, would do it in a heartbeat. I just want to encourage you from where I sit, just, you know, the older I get, I'm 48. The more I just value and appreciate people that have stayed faithful in their life.

I've seen that with my dad. He's 85. And it didn't surprise me. I've tracked newsboys since the 40s, but especially this new song, I was like, let's go. Rather than compromising who Jesus is, he's the way, the truth, the only life. Prophecy's coming true. So be encouraged. It matters. Keep just sticking to the message. And I know God's using you guys. So thanks for carving out time and have the best concert you've had tonight since that Houston Dome one, you know, 30 years ago. 30 years ago, almost. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. And tell your dad we said hello. Yeah, we love you. I love your dad. So many good memories there.

Good hugs from your dad in the past, man. I can see one of them that's small. Michael, how are you? Yeah. I can see one of those characters. Oh, yeah. The big personality. As he gave you a kiss on the cheek, for sure. Yeah, 100%.

I love him. I love him. He was always so supportive of us. There he was. And we'll never forget it. That's for sure. Yeah. And Sean, proud of you, man.

Oh, thank you. For carrying on the torch. I love when a son you know it's that's the whole meaning of i guess you know your offspring man what a crowning glory to you you know your papa good for you god bless you and keep you well thanks for saying that i am definitely feeling the love so you guys rock it tonight have an amazing tour thanks for We're out of time and we'll do it again. Thanks, Sean. Thank you, man. Same to you, buddy. Blessings.