The Sean McDowell Show - Why Ignoring God’s Design Is Making Us Miserable

Episode Date: December 2, 2025

Why is identity such a crisis in our culture right now? We’re constantly told to “live your truth,” “follow your feelings,” and “be whoever you want to be.” But what if our feelings aren’t always telling us the truth and what if real freedom is actually found somewhere else? Today, I have Dr. JP Foster, senior pastor at Faithful Central Bible Church and co-author (with Dr. Matt Williams) of the new book Finding Freedom in Jesus to discuss these "problematic" statements. The book walks through 21 key identity terms (created in Christ, restored in Christ, confident in Christ), paired with real testimonies and practical reflection questions to help truth move from head to heart. READ: Finding Freedom in Jesus: The 21 Attributes of Your Identity in Christ by by JP Foster and Matt Williams (https://a.co/d/f7xDgCs) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [smdcertdisc] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

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I say like this sometimes in preachy terms. Once I know who I, whose I am, I know who I am. And so the more I understand the God that I serve, the more I understand who I am. When I ask students to define freedom, the typical answer is do whatever you want without restraint. So freedom is no one telling me how to live my life. No. No one tell me how to identify. what kind of freedom are we talking about, and why is that freedom so attractive?

God says you can eat freely of anything in the garden, just don't touch this. And so we realized that there was freedom. When freedom is mentioned, freedom is actually mentioned for the first time with boundaries. When you continue to look at what freedom looks like, the boundaries are teaching us how it is we can live together in harmony, but how we can live a life that is thriving and life that honors God. Why is there a crisis of identity today? and how can an understanding of God's character transform the way we see ourselves? Our guest today is Dr. J.P. Foster, senior pastor at Faithful Central Bible Church, and he's got a new book out.

He co-wrote with Dr. Matt Williams, also a professor at Talbot, Biola University. It's called Finding Freedom in Jesus. Great book. You gave me the privilege of endorsing it. So thank you for coming on the Think Biblical podcast and being willing to talk about it. No, it's an honor to be here. Thank you so much. Thanks for your endorsement.

Oh, my goodness, yeah. You didn't know that your coming on was part of the deal on that. I would have came on regardless. No, that's super kind. Well, I enjoyed your book so much. I sent matter note, I don't know if he forwarded this to you, but I sent it to my pastor, and I said, hey, it's up to you, but you might think about doing a series on this book if it fits, because I thought the way you talk about God's character, which we're going to

get into and relate it today, I think is so timely. but at the core of your book is the question, Who am I? Why is identity such a pressing issue today? And what do you think are some common ways that identity is falsely grounded in our culture? Yeah, identity is huge. I think that when you look at the culture that we live in,

we are told a few things. One thing we're always told is live how you feel, dangerous. Another thing that we hear in our culture, culture all the time is live your truth and you can be whoever you want to be. And I think when you look at what scripture says as Christians, as believers, even therapists will tell you this. Sometimes how I feel might not necessarily be the truth. Amen. I think as Christians as believers, sometimes we feel a certain way we doesn't necessarily mean the way we think or feel it in that moment is the truth. So I think

in our culture today, we're dealing with issues of identity. Who am I? And I think it we're not careful, we can fall into the trap and allow the enemy to build strongholds in our minds and allow us to believe lies. And so I think finding freedom in Jesus helps us to realize who we are in Christ, how to be anchored in Jesus and how God has created us and who He's created us to be. And what a blessing it is to be in relationship with Him through Christ. And so when you hear things like, live your truth, Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, the life. The Word of God also who says, you shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

And so I think that when we know who really are, we know who and how God has created us. I say like this sometimes in preachy terms. Once I know whose I am, I know who I am. And so the more I understand the God that I serve, the more I understand who I am. And the more I understand God, his essence, his nature, his character.

As a believer, it draws me to him, towards him, because now I know who it is who I'm in relationship with, covenant relationship, and communion with. And so I think it empowers us as Christians, actually, the more we know about God and the more we know about our own identity. And by the way, before you jump in, Scott, what you did, I don't want people to miss it, is people often say live your truth. So you took that lie in culture because people can have their own beliefs, but they can't have their own truth, replace it with the truth. and when we're vertically related to Christ, then we can horizontally relate to other people properly. That's kind of a model of what you do throughout the book.

Yeah, I want to tell people, you know, God's saying, live my truth. Yes. And I want my truth to be God's truth as best I can. Now, culturally, JP, there's so many things that we ground our identity in. I'd say either peripheral things, not central, or even things that are just blatantly false, like you described. But how does the book ultimately seek to answer that question? So put it in a sentence or two.

Seek to answer that question, who am I? I am who God has created me to be. In relationship with God, I have freedom. And that freedom comes through Jesus. That's the simplest way for me to put it. if you look at the culture and how it is that the culture describes our relationship to God and wrestling with that tension, I do believe that some of the lies that we wrestle with or deception we deal with is issues we've had grown up.

Now, Matt will tell you this, his wife's a licensed therapist, my wife is also a licensed therapist. And so if you look at issues that we've had to wrestle with, even from adolescence, so from those early days when we're being shaped and molded, people are speaking into our our lives. I think one of the issues that we ran into even in talking to students or parishioners is that some of the lies that have been spoken over them from either their parents. It could be your mother, your father, a sibling, it could be a classmate, it could be a teacher, it could be a coach, a mentor. But if they've said things about you that stuck and they weren't true, even classmates, you know how it is. Now we have cyberbullying, which is on a whole other level.

That's right. But when people, some things people say about you, they stick. And if I'm not careful, I can then believe that lie and it can stick and I can see myself through the lens of that deception or that word that was spoken over me that isn't true. And so I think scripture says to us that we should pull down every stronghold and call it into obedience to Jesus. But if you read that scripture, it also goes on to tell us

that we have to make sure that the enemy's not building up knowledge against Jesus Christ. So now you're talking about finding freedom in Jesus. So it means any knowledge that comes against the knowledge of God, we must demolish those strongholds and call them into obedience to Jesus. And so when I think about some of the lies that have been spoken over my life or your life or anyone's life that may be listening, I have to remember that I have to get whatever that lie is or whatever that word was and ask myself, what does God's word say about me?

And I have to then pull it down and call it into obedience to Jesus. And so when we go through these 21 terms, we have three different ways to categorize. We have created in Christ. We have restored in Christ. confident in Christ. And I think it starts there because the first thing I must know as a human is I was created by God. I'm an image bearer. So if you've been created in the image of God and you know this, Scott, whether I believe in Jesus or not, whether I believe in God or not, I still bear the Imago day. I still have the image of God. So we start with the image of God. I'm created in Christ.

Then I'm restored. We know this. We all come to God with baggage. So when I get you, my life to Christ. I didn't grow up in church. So when I came to Christ, I had to wrestle with this tension between the habits I had built up over time living in the culture that we're in. And then now this is what God's word says about me. And I had to align my lifestyle and habits and surrender them to obedience to God and His Word. And I think that's where the restoration part comes in. I have to know that I'm rescued. I have to know that I'm redeemed. I have to know that I'm forgiven. I have to know that I'm loved. But then the latter part of it is confidence in Christ. I have to know that if I'm in Christ, that relationship with God, I should be hopeful.

If I have a relationship with God, I should also know that I'm victorious, that I'm not journeying this life alone. And no matter what trial or test I face, I'm also in it with God, who scripture describes is the great I am, Emmanuel, God with us. And so, yeah. Yeah, those two components that you describe both the people who are victorious over these and the people who wrestle with false views of identity. This is what makes this book, I think, really different than anything I've ever seen on the spiritual life. Because each chapter has got a QR code with videos from people describing how they embraced something

about their identity that was false and what it did to the wreckage that it caused in their lives. And these are, these are very real gut-wrenching stories that these folks tell. And then, you know, the second part of this is similar. You've got, you got stories about people who emerged victorious after having gotten their identity correct. Yes. Now, part of the question is, on these victorious parts, you know, it's one thing I think to know and understand these principle, of these concepts. It's another thing for that to go from our head down into the deep recesses of our soul. And having a wife who's a therapist like you described, certainly is helpful in that. But yeah, how does the book help people get just from the intellectual part of this to having

these things become deeply resident in your soul? Yeah. So in the beginning chapters of the book, we describe a process of going from information to transformation. And so when you start out, you realize that there's this information, but it can't have an impact unless we allow it to be transformation in our lives. And so how do I go from head knowledge to heart knowledge? We've deliberately added sections in the book where you see there's testimonies. We also have a reflection section at the end of every chapter where it clearly defines the death defines whatever term it is. And then after you, it's defined.

It gives you exercises you can do to actually make it go from head knowledge to heart knowledge. But scripture actually gives us the best way to do that. In Romans chapter 12 verse 1 through 2, Scripture says, I beseech thee therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your body a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God,

which is your reasonable service. Then chapter, verse 2 says, do not be conformed to this world. We're talking about the culture, right? But be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And I think it goes from head knowledge to being lived out in our lives. So think about this, do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

I think the transformation takes place from information, the transformation in our mind. So when we read scripture says be transformed by the reneur of your mind, I think sometimes we don't realize that our mind actually has a massive role in our spiritual formation. And so it is me now not just being a hero of the word, but being a doer also. And so scripture reveals to us that there is a way that this culture wants to mold us being conformed to this world, the way that this culture wants to mold us and shape us so that we look more and more like the culture. But the Word of God says be transformed by the renalen of your mind.

So my mind has to understand what God's Word says in order to live it out. One aspect of spiritual formation is understanding that the mind and the heart impact how we behave. So the way that our heart and mind believe what God's word says, I'll give you an example. So I've got the Word of God in my hand. It's the content.

all right it is content sure but it is how that content becomes central in my life that has actually lived out and so I think when we read scripture the centrality of the word of God determines how I actually behave

some may call it our worldview so many people have a worldview but if my worldview solely comes from God's word then that means I live my life and make my decisions based on what God's word says so when I think about my life being transformed and my mind being transformed into the image of Christ, then I realize that in order

for it to go from information to transformation, I have to allow my mind to be renewed about whatever topic or whatever term I may be reading. You know, in my experience, books tend to be either theology, which is important, light on application or application with the preferred translation that fits the point the person wants to make relationally, there's not a lot of books that start with deep ground of theology, let alone the character of God. And then the application comes out of that rather than just searching for some way to apply it. And I think you guys have done this.

And I haven't seen a lot of books this way. So tell me the backstory. Like why this book, why the two of you together? Was this – because some books are written by like a crisis, like there's a crisis of identity. What drove this? And how did you guys write it together? So Matt tells the story better than I do. We made the decision to write this book on Zoom.

Okay. During COVID. Really? Yeah, I'm dead serious. So we're on Zoom and I literally asked him out and I said, man, I say, man, I say, man, I want to just pray for me about this book. I'm going to write another book. And I said, well, before I pray for you, can I write it with you? And I was joking.

Oh. And he was like, are you serious? I was like, yeah. He's like, are you serious? Like, absolutely. And literally, after I prayed. know what it was about. And I knew nothing. I had no idea what the book was about. And then we met. We met after that. We met in person. We met on Zoom. We kept on meeting. And then we started,

we had about, he said, we wanted to do it on finding freedom in Jesus. We realized that there is a widening gap of biblical illiteracy. That's a fact. He noticed that. And I noticed that teaching biblical interpretation and spiritual formation and being a pastor. I noticed that there's the gap of biblical literacy is widening. From when you started, you noticed for sure. You can see it. Yeah. I can see.

I've been blessed to teach here for about eight years, but I've been pastoring for a while, and I've seen it from young adults, our youth to young adults to our adults. There's a widening gap. Matt noticed the same thing. I said, how can we, we're counseling students. I'm counseling church members, and I'm noticing that these issues they're wrestling with really come down to their identity in Christ. So we started with about 60-something terms.

we said how can we get all of these terms and narrow them down and then what number do we need a daily spark of hope and direction let the daily bible app from salem media be that spark this free android app delivers an uplifting verse each morning plus reading plans devotions and trusted podcasts from leaders like joyce mire and rick warren prefer to listen instead the daily bible app reads verses reading plans and chapters aloud handy for the headphones moment of your day choose from versions like es v niv niv k jv and more and bookmark favorites to revisit later. Share inspiring messages with loved ones right from the app. Feel God's presence in every notification. Search for Daily Bible app on Google Play and begin your day with hope, purpose, and peace. Pick. So I told him, I said, Matt, I have an idea.

I don't know what your thoughts are, but I have an idea. I said, often we make these books for college students, Christian universities, seminaries, and sometimes we miss the church. I said there are going to be more parishioners or congregants in the pews of a church than they are going to be in a seminary classroom. I said, what if we balanced it in a way that we can meet the needs of both the university and the church? Because the church desperately needs this. So think about a pastor. If its church members knew who they were in Jesus, just through this process of these 21 terms, you have a healthier church.

Amen to that. No question about it. You have a healthier church. Yeah. It's transformative. So we went through the process of what do we do with these, how do we pick these 21 terms? We pick 21 because normally, specifically in the African American church, we normally start the year off with a 21-day fast.

Oh, okay. So I said, what if we got 21 terms and we can, then we can kind of give churches options. We can do a church, a church can do a 21-day fast, which mine is, and I have a host of churches now they're going to join me on the 21-day fast, which is phenomenal. We can do a 21-day fast at devotes. It can be a personal devotional. The reflections are for personal devotional or life group devotionals. So you can have a whole life group at your church. But then you mentioned this, Sean. It's actually the seven, the 21 terms are broken up in the seven, three sections of seven. So if you want to do a sermon series, you can do seven now, seven later. Or you can do all 21 at once. So I'm doing, I'm in the middle of doing the series with the terms. So the impact of it is significant. So then we went back and then we said, well, how do we meet both?

Because there has to be a standard of theology, right? But then there also has to be some practicality. How can it practically impact people's lives? So Matt and I went back and forth. You know, Matt, as a New Testament scholar. Yes, yeah. The amount of books Matt brought to our next meeting, I was like, are we writing a dissertation?

But we literally went through every term. So I went and bought books. We went through every single term. We snaried down the 21 terms. We picked which terms we were going to do. We went back and looked at what we had, and then we funneled it and to make it as concise as possible.

Then we said how can we then bring in QR codes where it was testimonies of people have gone through these terms and their life has been impacted. We have people who were addicted. We have people who were abused. We have people who didn't feel

that they were loved or beautiful and they're sharing their testimonies about how they felt in that particular moment of their life, how they've gone through this term and after going through the particular term how they see their life completely different. That's the information now going to transformation.

And so there's lived-out testimonies in the book that shows us. But then there's also the practical application of – and that kind of comes from my preaching. So one of my degrees is in homiletics. And in hermeneutics, you have to go from what is God saying to the original people, right? So how do I get this, what we call a timeless truth? By the way, if I could jump in, hermeneutics is interpreting the scriptures. There's homiletics preaching the scriptures. Exactly.

Yeah, thank you. So we have the truth that God intended for his particular audience in that time. And then how do I, once I know the meaning of the text, how do I get the meaning of the text that God intended in that time and bring that timeless truth to our time to date? Right. And so our intention was now that we know what this looks like, theologically, how do we make this now? practical to how we live it out today. And so we had to take the theological truth of what it meant in Jesus' time or in the Old Testament and then bring it to how it applies to our lives today.

I think that was how it was balanced with rich theology. This is what God's word says. I'm giving an example. This is what love means in our culture. Yep. This is what love means in the Old Testament. This is what love means in the New Testament. And now let's look at how that impacts our life today with a concise definition of what

that actually looks like. And so that's really how we began to organize the book. But Matt did a great job. I mean, he's an amazing scholar. He is, yeah. He teaches the gospel, John, and students just love it. It's incredible. Love it on so many levels.

No, let me back up just a little bit. Why do you think that so many Christians don't know much about their identity in Christ? Or if they do, it's just this sort of isolated theological truth that doesn't really impact who they are. Yeah. I think there's several reasons. I think one is the, I think this. culture we live in now is really pulling on on our youth um and young adults they with their cell phones they have and tablets they have access to literally everything at any moment and i think the cultural

influence is impacting them as well um i think there's a widening gap because uh there were days where you went to church you were there all day sunday school classes a lot of church don't do sunday school they don't know we had teaching ministries years ago and i think a lot of those teaching ministries are are not as prevalent as they used to be That's one reason. We had degree programs to equip those people. See? And we've closed those programs.

See? Because there were no jobs in the churches for those. See what I mean? And so I think that the teaching ministry and disciplining has impacted the church heavily. But I also think that there is a cultural impact. There's a church impact where the churches are, we have to disciple. What happens to someone after they say yes in your congregation to Jesus? What's the discipleship track?

What is the church intentionally doing to make sure that the, the believers, the disciples can grow in and saving knowledge of Jesus. And I think sometimes, not all of our churches, but some of them, as soon as someone says yes to Jesus, then that's it. Praise God. Just keep coming on Sunday. That's not enough. That's not enough.

And the third reason I would say is just personal. For some reason, they're not as vested in reading their Bible. I don't know how you can love God, give your life to him, and not be intentional about reading. And I think those, that's why we see biblical literature. I'm in class or preaching, especially with the youth or young adults, and you're mentioning, remember when Moses and they're looking like,

you remember when Paul was ship wrecked, and they're looking like, his ship was wrecked? You know, and in my mind, I'm saying, whoa, they don't know some of the basic stories. I mean, that's how we got the songs in Sunday school, our father Abraham came from us knowing the biblical stories when we were younger, and I think those Those are just a few reasons why I think there's a widening gap, unfortunately.

So the title is Finding Freedom in Jesus. One of my first thoughts when I saw it is I wonder how you and Matt define freedom. Because when I ask students to define freedom, the typical answer is do whatever you want without restraint. So freedom is no one telling me how to live my life. No. No one telling me how to identify. I get to be the author of my life, live my truth. what kind of freedom are we talking about

and why is that freedom so attractive? Yeah, so this is actually one of the terms that made Matt stop. We were studying the terms, this is the one that he wrestled with the most. He said, wait, he's just like, JP, you're not going to believe this. He's going through this term on freedom

and he realized that exactly what you described is what the culture says about freedom. Freedom is, do whatever you want to, you can have whatever you want to. You just have at it, right? But we realize when you're following the term, even from Adam and even the garden,

that freedom meant you can, God says you can eat freely of anything in the garden, just don't touch this. And so we realized that there was freedom, when freedom is mentioned, freedom is actually mentioned for the first time with boundaries.

And we don't look at it like that. We don't look at the fact that the freedom actually does have boundaries. And so when we looked at the term consistent, we realized that, think about this, I believe you have children. I do, I got three kids. There you go.

And I have two. And when I look at being a parent, I raise my kids because I love them with boundaries. That's right. And how loving would God be if he just let us, we have free will, but our ability to do what we have to do, he gives us boundaries in order to do that.

And so I think freedom, the Word of God says that we're free in Jesus Christ. And so when I think about being free, I cannot look at being free without understanding that God is true. created boundaries and how I live my life. And so when I look at Scripture, when I used to look at Scripture when I was younger, before I came to church, the biggest issue I had was I felt the Bible was a book of do's and don'ts.

Don't do this, do this, don't do that, do this. And then I realized, even reading the law and understanding the genres in Scripture, that the law was actually intended to be relational. So when you look, when you trace Scripture, the law wasn't given just to tell you, do this, don't do that. it was a covenantal relationship with God that came with relational aspects of how to live vertically and how to live horizontally.

If you look at the Ten Commandments, the first four are vertical, the latter six are horizontal. So you see that this is actually how we can live in harmony and actually how we can thrive. And Matt noticed that when you continue to look at what freedom looks like, the boundaries are teaching us how it is we can live together in harmony, but how we can live a life that is thriving in a life that honors God. And they're not just random boundaries.

It says in Deuteronomy 10, right, before they enter the promise land. Love, Lord, God, your heart, your soul, your mind of strength, and follow these commandments that I give you for your good. That's the key. Freedom is trusting that God is good, and he's given us commandments for which we can thrive. That's the piece that's missed. Let's be a little more specific about the freedom that we have in Christ. what are some of the things that people are freed from

by getting your identity straight? Yeah, Jesus says, whom the sun says free is free indeed. And when I look at what I'm being freed from in the book, it mentions who we are in Christ, but then we're restored in Christ. So we're one of the given example. We're rescued.

So freedom to be freed means that at some point I must have been bound. So, example, I was once a slave to sin. I'm no longer a slave to sin. I'm freeing Jesus. So God loves us and he rescues us. So one of the terms we use is that God is a God who rescues us. Another term that we use is that we are loved by God.

This one blew me away. I preached the term a few weeks ago that you're loved by God. And there's a term that's used in scripture that God's Hasid, right, is used almost 250 times in the scripture. And it's described as God's unfailing love, God's loving kindness. And David mentions it in the Psalms and says, your mercy and grace, your loving kindness, may have followed me all the days of my life. Amen.

And it's described as something that chases, something that follows. And so when I'm looking at God's unfailing love, we had over 71 people in one service come to get saved, come to the altar. That's amazing. Just the term of how much God loves you. And it was literally preaching John 316. God's love the world he gave. Yet when we're still sinners, Christ died for you.

And I think when it was expressed and explained that, God loves you. Jesus doesn't say, I'm a shepherd. He says, I'm the good shepherd. You know this. No shepherd is going to leave 99 sheep to go after one. But the good shepherd, Jesus himself, will leave the 99 and go after the one. And I think the picture of God's love, showed them that they're loved by God.

I'll give you another example. A student I have that received this book gave their life to Christ in 2023 was wrestling, struggling with just, you know, I'm wrestling with being here and just I don't feel like I fit. So I met with the student and talked to the student. I said, well, what's going on?

It's like, well, I just don't feel like I fit here. Just kept saying, I don't feel like I fit here. So I asked the question, I said, well, what is the question? I said, well, what is it, let me ask you a question. Is it, are you struggling with overcoming your past? She said, yes. Yeah, I'm overcoming. I'm struggling with my past.

Because when we give our life to Christ, we come with baggage. But she didn't realize that she's actually loved by God. She was wrestling with all the things that I've done before I gave my life to Christ. Is there really freedom? Is God really going to, does he really forgive me? Is he going to hold these things against me? 1 John 1 9 says if we confess our sin, God is faithful and just to forgive us of all in righteousness. He'll cleanse us and forgive us of all unrighteousness.

So scripture tells us that. But when I'm thinking about me, my mistakes, my shortcomings, my false, the mistakes that I've made, I may say, well, Lord, will you forgive me? And the student was wrestling with, well, she was really wrestling with the concept of, what does God's love look like? And I think she got to the point where she had a picture of, whoa, God, this is what? what God's love is. This is what God means when he says, God loves me that much, they'll go after me. God loves me so much that He'll forgive me. God loves me so much that he's merciful and gracious. So I think that is, to me, is a picture of how this book has done a great job in really helping people to know who they are in our identity in Christ. So 21 attributes of God. We won't walk

through all of them. But I do think it's interesting and why, as you start with, created in Christ. Because that's the first thing we learn about God in the Bible is in the beginning, God created. A lot of our identity, I think, is corrected if we understand what it means to be created in God's image and all that entails. But the first one, some of these are transformed, love, known, beautiful, redeemed, reconciled. Like, these are truths we want to work into our lives that set us free. The first one you picked is transformed. Yes. I'm curious why you start there and how specifically are our identities transformed in Christ?

Yeah, we started there because of Romans 12 1 through 2. Oh, that makes sense. Yeah, that's why we started there, Romans 12, 1 through 2. Transform by the Reno Your Mind. The intro of the book starts explaining to us going from information to transformation, so we started with the reader understanding the impact of being transformed. So that's why we started with transformed. Interesting, because there's a lot different ways I guess you could arrange attributes of Christ.

So created first. Obviously there's the fall. So we're restored. And then third, once we're restored, that gives us confidence. And then you built the seven attributes that fit under each one of those. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense.

We almost started with loved. Loved was the first. Looking for a simple way to stay rooted in God's Word every day. The Daily Bible Devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you connected with scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy Daily Bible Tribia and Humor, a fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your faith. Get the Daily Bible Devotion app for free on both iOS and Android. Start and end your day with God's Word.

Search for the Daily Bible Devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store and download it today. Initially, the first one we had was love and we said, wait, the way the intro is flowing, understanding the impact of you're about to go through a process of having your mind transformed. it was important to start there. I'm actually glad you didn't start with love because I think that's – there's something cultural about where we go immediately to God's love, which is powerful. The Bible starts with creation. We are created by him transformed because of sin, which is through God's love, like you said.

But I don't know, personally, I'm glad you guys you didn't start there. But the second chapter is on love. It is. It is. Which is pretty central. Yes. So in comparison to the culture at love, large, what's the biblical understanding of love, and how do people practically embrace that as part of

our identity? Yeah, it's okay. It's okay. I read it straight from the book. You're the author, man. You're not going to commit plagiarism reading yourself. No, because it's the way it's described, I want to read what you're giving him grief for. I was giving him a hard time.

Please read it. I do the same thing. And I want to read this story if I can. Yeah, please. It says, living love today. I John Paul recently preached a sermon based on James 5. 14. Is anyone among you sick? Let them all call the elders of the church and pray.

And anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. I ask everyone to come down forward for prayer. As I was praying, it wasn't magical. I didn't pray expecting a miracle to happen at once. But I prayed for a man who had stage four cancer. He was asking God to hold on to him. I prayed with him and his wife time and time again, and he came down. This man was crying.

He was overwhelmed. The church knew it. He was healed. He came back later, and he was healed. He comes to me and says, I don't understand. His wife wrote me a letter. She sent flowers. She said, Pastor, you're not going to be.

believe what happened. My husband had cancer. He's been healed. I can't believe that God would love me so that he would heal me. When I think about God's love, the word of God says that Jesus loves, drives out demons. Jesus' love ends all impacts that we'll experience and responding to God's love. Jesus loved so much he washed people's feet. But finding freedom in Jesus teaches us that God's love is so incredible that I I mentioned this before, that it goes after you. God's love is unfailing. It never fails. And God's love so much that he gave his only god-begaten son that we would have everlasting life.

So when I look at what it means, what it means to be loved, when we're going through things in our life, when we're overwhelmed, when we don't know what to do, God's love meets you wherever you are. And so I think when people are thinking about God's love like the girl in my class, she said, I don't know what to do. I've gone through so much. I feel like I'm overwhelmed. I feel like God doesn't love me.

And one of the things that Matt and I looked at was shame-free. Because when I look at my life and I look at God's love, there's sometimes a contradiction between me accepting God's love or God accepting me to be loved and me wrestling with my shame. And I've noticed that 1st John 1-9 says that, if I confess to my sin, God is faithfully just to cleanse me and forgive me of all in righteousness. So where is the wrestle?

The wrestle that I experience is that I have to, to ask this question, will God do it for me? And my shame, the baggage that I'm carrying, the guilt that I'm carrying, can God do something with the guilt and the shame? So I say it like this, sometimes, unfortunately, as believers, we see ourselves as our last mistake. And so I think the guilt that we carry sometimes when we're looking at God's love is that the guilt that I have is God, but you don't know what I just did. Do you understand what I just experienced? Do you understand how I missed it, how I fell short?

Sin is falling short of the glory of God. Sin is missing the target. And so when I'm thinking about God's love, can God allow me to forgive me and be shame-free? And I believe the answer to that is yes. When I look at God's love, God does it just forgive me for what he does. First John 1-19 says he forgives me and he cleanses me. And so I think the struggle with people accepting God's love

it's not just is God loving. The struggle that people have is, does God, is he going to remove my guilt and my shame? And I think that's where I've seen struggles with students, what's what I've seen struggles with church members is, the guilt, and I believe God's love, and it's not just forgive you for what you did, but it also removes the dirt.

It removes the filth. It removes the mud. It removes the guilt and the shame that comes with it. And that goes to even Jesus' first miracle, turning water in the wine. when I look at how Jesus turns water into wine. In that moment, that couple was going to be shamed. They had everyone in the town.

Everyone in that town is at the wedding, and he's ran out of wine. They've run out of wine. And so there's now this moment of what are we going to do? What are we going to do? And then Jesus turns the water in the wine. People think, oh, you know, Jesus turned water in the wine, that means we can have wine. I'll let you debate that later.

But what he did was in an honor and shame culture, Jesus uplifted them in their moment of shame. To have the whole town at your wedding to run out of wine was a shameful act because it's an honor and shame culture. What Jesus does is that the wine groom comes out and says, most people bring out the choice wine first. But you've brought out, you know, and when people drink enough, then they can't tell that the best wine is what it takes like.

But he says, but you brought the best last, which means that what Jesus did for them was better than what they had before. And I think when you look at Jesus removing their shame, that particular miracle shows us that Jesus didn't just make wines they can continue partying. This couple was going to be the shame of the whole town, the talk of the whole town. Everyone was there.

They were going to be shamed. And what Jesus did in doing this miracle is Jesus removed the shame that this couple would have started out with being married. And in an honor and shame culture, if you've been shamed, people can't associate with you. They have to disassociate with you. And so Jesus doesn't only continue to restore them by making more wine.

But now they don't go back in the town saying, hey, this is the worst wedding we've ever been to. They ran out of wine. Now they're shamed. They're embarrassed. What does Jesus do? Now they're going to go back into the town and talk about how,

I can't believe how good that wine was. the second wine, I can't believe how good that wine was. So he didn't just give them more wine. He actually elevated them in their community. So I think Jesus removing their shame is an example of what he does for us. I think his first miracle shows an aspect of what Jesus came to do for us. That's a powerful theological point. To go along with that, I was just asked two days ago an event.

I don't know why. Somebody said, do you think Jesus was stripped completely naked on the cross? And I said, yes, here's why. When people first sinned what happened? God gave them a clothing, killed an animal, obviously, to cover them up, to cover up their shame. And then when Jesus goes to the cross, he completely uncovers himself to take all of our shame. When I first learned that, like I got goosebumps just saying that is so powerful and transformative. If I got us one question about your earlier point about love, you were talking about God

loves us so much. And that was a dramatic story. I love that you read about the man stage four cancer who was healed. I believe that 100%. We have a chapter on love. What would you say to the person who goes, Pastor JP, my dad or my uncle also prayed and God didn't heal him. Does God not love him? How do you address that? I'll address that in the chapter on hope. This is personal for me. So I've lost two brothers, both to accidental death. Oh my goodness. About three or five years apart. And I remember as a pastor going to visit, go on a hospital visit for a member and their baby, their son.

My younger brother dies and their son lives. Oh, man. Yeah. So I experienced that. I'm watching God restore this young boy when they're hopeless. They have no hope. They're literally hopeless. I'm watching my own personal life.

And I'm doing a wedding. I'm in the middle of doing a wedding. My phone is on silent. I have on an Apple watch. And you know after you have, it's on Do Not Disturb. If someone continues to call you after the third time, it goes through. I'm standing at the, I'm standing at all, my watch is going off like fireworks. And I'm in the middle of doing this wedding and I can feel in my chest that the way that this watch is ringing, something is terribly wrong.

So I've, I do my part of the wedding, walk out the doors. And I see my mother called me, my sister called me, you're ready, yeah, I already knew. And so I'm at a wedding, doing the wedding, and then I find out my brother died. And the only reason why I made it is because of God's love and having hope in him. Later on, my older brother died. So I've lost my younger brother, my older brother. And the only reason why, and again, theological I understand looking at the life of Job, that, you know, the Bible says that he was a just man, righteous and blameless.

who shunned evil. And if you read Job, you begin to see that, he's persecuted. He goes through a trial or a test, however you want to describe it. And so now Job is a righteous man, but his life, he loses his children. He loses his cattle, his wealth. He loses his health. His health is attacked. And I would argue when his wife said curse God and die, he lost his wife. Never really thought about that, but I would probably concur. She said, Job, do me a favor with. Curse God and die. Oh, I kind of think he may have lost her in that moment. So here's this guy who's faithful. And you realize he's faithful and he experiences trouble. And so for me, personally, I can realize that God can love me,

but it doesn't mean that I won't go through adversity in life. But it is his love that keeps me in those moments. And so for the person that's watching or listening and they've gone through hardship and they've lost someone, they say, well, why didn't God do it for me? My personal perspective on it is God is sovereign, and He knows best. And Scripture says to be absent from the bodies, to be present with the Lord. And I've seen both sides of it. I've been in the hospital and I've prayed with people, and I've watched them pass.

I've been in the hospital with people, I've prayed, and I've seen the Lord do something miraculous. I've been in the hospital with people, and the doctor says, I don't know, let's see what happens. And in those moments, I've seen people say, I'm so happy that they're not experiencing this type of pain anymore. I've visited parents who are in hospice, and they say, you know, this is unfortunate. Now, when you have young kids or a young brother and he dies, I just have to trust that God is sovereign and he knows best. And I don't understand at all.

I'm not going to pretend to know the thoughts of God. But I do know that the thing that has kept me is my faith being anchored in God in those moments because he's the one who's given me strength. he's the one who's kept in my mind. He's the one that's given me strength because when you lose people you love and still have people dependent on you in a classroom and your church, I mean, yeah, you have to make sure you do what's right

to be healthy mentally and to be healthy physically, but at the same time, it's God's strength and his love that's kept me every step of the way. Amen. I've got one last question for you. You've got 21 different attributes

of our identity in Christ. Given the cultural moment that we're in. Yes. Which one or two of these do you think is the most important to meet where we are culturally today? Where we are culturally today, man, that's a tough. We talked about transformed so much.

I'll say hopeful. Yeah, I would say hopeful. I think we're in a time where we need hope and understanding that there is hope in God makes a massive difference. There was a period in my life when I was hopeless. I was wrestling with my purpose. I expected God to take my life in a certain direction, and it didn't happen.

I just remember being angry. How old were you? I was going to college. Okay. Yeah. So I was, what, 18, 19, 20 years old, and I was angry. I expected I got injured playing sports. I wanted to be a neurosurgeon.

My goal was always to be a doctor. Wow. And I wanted to go to medical school. and I literally saw God turn in the direction of my life and I didn't know what to do. Part of me was afraid because I didn't grow up in church and I felt I saw the hand of God moving in ministry and I was sharing my testimony

when I knew that Christ was real, Jesus is real, and I watched God use me to share my testimony about 30 to 40 people just started coming to the church for me just sharing my testimony. Once I knew Christ was real, I said I have to tell everyone. I started telling my neighbors, my basketball, my teammates, everyone. and they started coming to church. And then the pastor said to me, he says,

I can see that the Lord is going to use you in an incredible way. And in my mind, I'm saying to myself, I'm just trying to get to know Jesus because I was young in my faith. I'm just trying to get to know Jesus. But I know that in that moment, that time and that season in my life, I was so on fire for God. Like reading his word, I was buying concordances.

I was buying commentaries, study Bibles. And I was in that space of just, I just want to learn as much. I can. And then I noticed that the direction of my life was changing. So long story short, a friend in mind prayed with me because I was wrestling with, am I supposed to go to middle school? What am I supposed to do? He said, hey, man, I prayed. And I don't know why. Looking for a simple way to stay rooted in God's word every day. The Daily Bible Devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you

connected with scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy daily Bible trivia and humor, a fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your faith. Get the Daily Bible Devotion app for free on both iOS and Android. Start and end your day with God's Word. Search for the Daily Bible Devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store and download it today. I just keep coming to my mind, but Biola. Are you serious? I said, what? He said, yeah, but Biola, I went online and looked it up because it kept coming to my mind and, you know, it's a school. They teach the Bible. I said, what? Because they knew I was on fire. I was just on fire.

Reading the Bible and like, what's going on? So I said, well, let me go. So I go to, I go to Biola, do a tour. I'm on the tour and listen to me. I'm on this tour and I am, I'm going to go through this process of just seeing what's going on on this campus called Biola. Sure. But I'm actually, I'm actually hopeless. I'm recovering from injuries playing basketball. I felt God turn in the direction of my life. I knew that the schools I was going to play. I couldn't go to anymore because of my injury, because of my injuries. And so I was saying, Lord, what are you doing?

So when the biola thing came up in prayer, I said, well, let's go. Let's go. They teach the Bible. I'm on fire. I want to know the Bible. So I go there. We begin the tour. The tour guy is taking me.

The counselor's taking me all throughout the campus. We get, listen, I am hopeless, Scott. The campus director, the counselor takes me to a dorm named Hope. And I am hopeful. I get to this dorm named hope and say this is the door right here where you are Sean and where you are the men's dorm was on this side. I don't know if it's still like this now. The women's dorm was on this side and I'm standing facing the door and I'm watching

students come and go, come and go, come and go. And the guidance counselor and the tour guide is right where you are. And I'm watching students come in and there's two ladies. They walk in and they're walking across this way and one of them looks like this. just gives me this just this look from my I said I can't go to school here I didn't say it out loud

but in my gut I said oh I can't go to school here I can't do this I don't think I don't think I'm going to fit here so then the lady walks they leave and then she comes back and she says

literally with tears and she says I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm so sorry and in my mind I'm like yeah I bet you are sorry staring at me like So she comes back and she says, you know, you don't know me. God told me to tell you that he wants you to be here. This is going to be the foundation of your ministry.

He's going to use you to touch thousands of lives around the world. Oh, my goodness. I said, what? I'm hopeless. I'm in a dorm named hope. And then the tour guide says, this has never happened before. Do you want to just fill out an application or you want to finish the tour? I said, can we do both of them?

Can we do both? And so we end up going, we finished the tour, and that was a moment for me where I was full of hope. And I realized that God can navigate your steps. Since then, I got my degree in biblical and theological studies, study Greek, got my master's here at Talbot School of Theology, did a little bit of studying at Modi Bible Institute in prophetic literature,

went to Oxford and studied a little bit, came back and got my doctorate here at Talbot School. of theology. And I'm just seeing how God has navigated my life just from me in a space, a position of just being hopeless. But when you're hopeless, we have hope knowing that God can navigate our lives. He navigates our footsteps. And so I'm just grateful that at that time in my life, being so young and being open to hearing God's voice, even if it wasn't what I wanted for myself at the time. Now I wouldn't trade this for anything in the world. That's awesome. Did you ever see her again, like run into our campus?

No, this is what's unfortunate. We could walk past each other and I would never know. You know those moments where she's just, I was more in awe of what happened and what, what, because I was hopeless than anything. But no, if she, if she's listening and she remembers, I would love to have a conversation with her because she literally was a part of the confirmation of me coming in.

So what year did you graduate, Fial undergrad? What year was that? I came 2000 in the middle of transfer until 2007. 2007. Okay. Awesome. Good for you. I'd say if you're listening, email us. Oh, please. No, please. No, seriously, please. That's awesome. I'd love to know what was going on in her mind and the reason for the look, but it worked out for the better, whatever was going on. You know, he said something earlier. I want to land this plane. I want to ask you about God's love, you pointed towards God's sovereignty. And then you talked about God's hope. I think Scott was right to ask, are there certain attributes that are most.

timely right now. But in a sense, if we just focus on one attribute at the expense of the others, our theology gets out of kilter, which is why we need to balance that we are saved and that God is holy and we are holy as a result, that we are shame-free, we are known. It's really, as a whole, we are adopted. And the last one hopeful, blessed alive, that I think when all of these sink home in our lives, it leads to the transformation you're talking about. So I, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Thanks again for the chance to endorse it. Finding freedom in Jesus. And again, I said it to my pastor. I was like, hey, I don't know what you have planned for a sermon series, but if you want to do five or ten or twelve of these, I think it'd be awesome. So thanks for coming on.

No, no, thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Were you going to read something? Yeah, I was. I was. Since we keep bringing up God's love. Do it. This is page 36. Okay. Final biblical thoughts on love. And this happens in every chapter. We say what the culture says on love. We say what the Old Testament teaches on love, what the New Testament teaching on love, and we always have a final thought, which tries to come up with a concise way to describe it based on Old and New Testament, as opposed to our culture. God is love, unfailing and unending love, and that love overflows to us. Can I read that one more time? Do it, please. God is love, unfailing and unending love, and that love overflows to us.

I think it's important to understand that. God is love. His love is unending, unfailing, and his love overflows into our lives. And so that's just a concise way of describing God's love and how it overflows into our life. I love it. Love is not just something God does. It's who He is. God is holy. God is just.

God is righteous. Understanding that truth, I think, is what leads to transformation. So thanks for coming on. Thank you for having. And sharing some personal, really powerful stories. definitely remember those and be sharing some of those with my kids. So we will have you back. In the meantime, folks listening, get a copy of Finding Freedom in Jesus.

Personal study, classroom study, imagine small group study, or a lot of different ways people are using this book. But it's well done. Good job to you. And by old talent, Professor Matt Williams, got to give him a little shout out as well. Have to. Yeah. Dr. Matt Williams, my brother. This has been an episode of the Think Biblically Podcast.

We would love your questions sent to us at think biblically at biola.edu. Give us a little review if you can. We would appreciate that, preferably a five-star, but any review helps. And we have programs, just like you talked about, the ones that Dr. Foster went through, and you teach now undergrad for us, Old Testament, New Testament, theology classes, marriage, spiritual formation, apologetics, philosophy. Those of you listening, we would love to have you join us here at Talbot. and we'll see you Friday for the weekly cultural update. Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show,

please hit that follow button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning in haven't done this yet, and it makes a huge difference in helping us reach and equip more people and build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every review helps. Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,

where we have on campus and online programs in apologetic, spiritual formation, marriage and family, Bible, and so much more. We would love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and defend the Christian faith today. And we will see you when the next episode drops. Is life feeling chaotic? I get it. I'm Rachel Wojo, host of the Untangling Life podcast. Don't miss the passionate encouragement and faith-based resources you need to help you clear your head and calm your heart.

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