The Sean McDowell Show - Why Os Guinness Has Hope for America

Episode Date: February 10, 2026

As America approaches its 250th anniversary, social critic Os Guinness joins Sean to argue that the “state of the American Union” is far more fragile than most people realize and that slogans like “restore the soul” or “make America great” avoid the deeper question of what made America free in the first place. Guinness traces today’s polarization, the drift toward power politics on both left and right, and why liberty-based societies are harder to sustain than authoritarian ones without virtue, faith, and a shared moral foundation. This conversation is a sober, hope-filled call for Christians (and all citizens) to think biblically about freedom, recover first principles, and pursue renewal before the republic becomes a memory. READ: America Agonistes: America’s 250th and the Restoration of a Nation in Conflict with Itself and Its Past by Os Guinness (https://a.co/d/05enlHun) *Get a MASTERS IN APOLOGETICS or SCIENCE AND RELIGION at BIOLA (https://bit.ly/3LdNqKf) *USE Discount Code [smdcertdisc] for 25% off the BIOLA APOLOGETICS CERTIFICATE program (https://bit.ly/3AzfPFM) *See our fully online UNDERGRAD DEGREE in Bible, Theology, and Apologetics: (https://bit.ly/448STKK) FOLLOW ME ON SOCIAL MEDIA: Twitter: https://x.com/Sean_McDowell TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sean_mcdowell?lang=en Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmcdowell/ Website: https://seanmcdowell.org Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

Want to keep God's word with you wherever you go? The King James Bible Study KJV app by Salem Media makes it easy to read, study, share, and pray daily with a timeless KJV translation. Enjoy features like offline access, audio Bible listening, smart search, and tools to highlight bookmark and take notes, all designed to keep your Bible studies simple and organize. Best of all, it's free to download in the Google Play Store. Grow in your faith every day. Search for King James Bible Study, KJV, and download the app today. There's a root problem that's gone wrong in America. What would you say is kind of the heart of the American crisis?

Joe Biden used to talk of restoring the soul of America. Never say what it was. What's the soul? President Trump talks about make America great again, but he never mentions what made America great in the first place. In other words, it's become a campaign speech slogan, and I just don't think it's true. Very few presidents give you the real state of the union.

The state of the American Union is in a more serious condition than most Americans recognize, and it requires urgent life-saving attention. Our guest today spoke these words in his latest book, America Agonistis. Social critic, Os Guinness, is back to assess the state of the American Union at its 250th anniversary and consider whether America is doomed and why everyone in particular Christians should care. Dr. Guinness, thanks for coming back on the show. Always a pleasure, Sean. Thank you. Well, I'm going to get your reactions to the stark words that are in your book, again, about the American Union being in a more serious condition than most Americans realize and that it requires urgent life-saving attention.

What do you mean by that? Well, I said that in the context of the repeated statement in every state of the Union, the state of the Union, the state of the Union. the state of the union is strong. You know, whether a president is a Democrat like Joe Biden or Republican like Donald Trump, they always say that. And I just don't think it's true. In other words, it's become a campaign speech slogan, but very few presidents try and give you the real state of the union.

And while that's a congressional requirement for a president, I think it should be a concern for every American citizen. So as you approach your 250th anniversary, it's a great moment of celebration. Two 50 years for a free society is no mean achievement. It isn't very long if you look at authoritarian societies like, say, the Egyptian Empire or the Chinese Empire. But free societies are rare, and lasting free societies are rarer still. So it is a moment to celebrate, no question. would just point out some of the very obvious crises I'm an admirer of this country I'm not

American but certain things are very obvious first the most serious is the polarization between those and we said this I think before in your program those who understand America from the perspective of the American Revolution largely but not completely biblical and those who understand America from the perspective of ideas coming down from the French Revolution. Because things like postmodernism or critical racism and so on, they're all the heirs of the French Revolution, not the American Revolution. And I would argue there is much a secession from the American Republic as the South was

in splitting from the North in the Civil War. And that has to be resolved. But no one's, there's a pushback, Trump represents a huge pushback. but no determined effort to come back and win them back in terms of persuasion and principles, things that you're so concerned with rightly, Sean. You hit on. Sorry about that. You hit on so many of the key points that we want to discuss.

But I wonder if you can explain why it is that like authoritarian regimes seem to last so much longer than liberty-based regimes. And one thing you say in the book is when Moses says, let my people go, the Egyptian empire had already existed for about a millennium at that point. So why do secular or authoritarian regimes, for lack of a better word, tend to last longer than those rooted in liberty? Because they depend only on power and oppression. whereas freedom is much more challenging. You take the notion of self-governance or freedom itself. It requires a whole lot of things.

So the biblical view of freedom is an ordered freedom that's between the extremes of anarchy in one side, all freedom, no order, and authoritarianism on the other side, all order, no freedom. And as you know, freedom and self-independent, government, it is a challenging thing for us because freedom always tends to go towards license and do what you like and so on. And freedom is not doing what you like. It's doing what you ought to do if you want freedom to last. And that's much tougher morally, among other things. That definitely, and that distinction of freedom, we're going to come back to some of that.

This, you write as the second in a four-part book series that you're working on. We had an interview on your previous book where you talk about kind of our civilizational moment. Will you remind us what you mean by civilizational moment and then tell us what makes this book unique? Well, people use the word civilizational moment, like a fancy term for today or the present moment. No, no. Civilizational moment is a moment in the course of a civilization, its rise, flourishing, fall, and decline. When the civilization loses touch with its inspiration, its dynamism. And when that happens, and it happens with every civilization, there are only three broad options. Renew the inspiration, replace it adequately, or decline and fall.

Obviously, the inspiration for West is the Christian faith. Or you might say the Christian faith rooted in Judaism, the faith of the Bible. The Bible made the West. So we owe a lot to the Greeks and the Romans, but the Christian faith is essentially the roots of the West. The intended replacement, and as you know, this was the 18th century, was the Enlightenment. Reason, not revelation. Progress, not heaven and that sort of thing. But clearly, after the 20th century, all the Enlightenment hopes have failed. So we're now faced with the thing, there is either renewal of the Christian faith. or the decline and fall of the West.

That's the challenge of the civilizational moment we're facing now. You've shared this before on my program, but I'd love for kind of my viewers and listeners to just kind of get a recap of your life experience that you bring to the table that makes you so concerned about the authoritarian moves that we're seeing take place in culture. If you'd be willing to share that, I think it would give people a real insight in a sense of where you're coming from.

Well, any of you know across the country, if you have friends who grew up, say, in Poland or the Czech Republic or Hungary, you know us who knew what it was like to live under the Soviets, they're much more realistic and many Americans are naive. You've been peaceful for so long. And you haven't had any invader in this country since 1812 when the Brits burnt the White House. So Americans don't have a realistic understanding of the horror. of authoritarianism. I grew up my first 10 years in China. I was there during the climax of the Chinese Revolution and saw the beginning of the reign of terror. And it was genuinely terrifying, rather like the reign of terror in the French Revolution. Now, go back to your world, Sean, and my world too, of apologetics. Since Friedrich Nietzsche, Nietzsche in his last, very last words, the posthumous words in his posthumous book, The Will to Power. Do you want a name for my world?

This world is the will to power and nothing besides. That's postmodernism. That's the survival of the fittest. That's Xi Jinping. That's Putin. But that's also many Americans. So people who don't try and use principle or persuasion, take Doge. You know, the Department of Government of Efficiency. What was the symbol of Doge? Ache. chainsaw. Doge would have been incredible if they'd use American principles with persuasion to show how we need to cut out many of the fat government officers that have grown up. Would have been very important. But just using power, the backlash has been incredible, and it failed. And again and again, even the conservatives today are using a Nietzschean-style

power rather than persuasion and principle. And it just shows how. how far we've drifted from the American Republic. You have a critique for the left and a critique for the right, which we're going to get to, which is really important that you discuss in this book. But part of what you're saying is there's a root problem that's gone wrong in America, and a lot of our solutions are kind of on the surface addressing them, like your example with Doge. What would you say is kind of the heart of the American crisis? Well, I think there's polarization that I mentioned because the effect of it is you've drifted.

The American Republic, we've got to discuss where it came from, the American Republic is a freedom like no other. That's why I admire it. But you take MAGA, or go back, Joe Biden used to talk of restoring the soul of America. Never say what it was. What's the soul? President Trump talks about make America great again. But he never mentions what made America great in the first place. It wasn't the military.

It wasn't the economy. America is a nation by intention and by ideas. And those ideas, freedom supremely, are incredibly important. Who defends them? He had an interesting experience with a visitor group of young people about a couple of months ago. And they were ardent Christians and most of them ardent supporters of the press. I said to them, all right, what made America great? You support the president? Well, the Jewish Christian foundations, they said. Terrific. And what were they? And not one of them can say anything.

I heard an eminent Catholic leader question about what did the Bible contribute? He couldn't get beyond saying human dignity and worth made in the image of God. I thought, what? Now, many of the things that did come into the revolution came through the Reformation from the scriptures. So our Catholic friends often have a slightly inadequate view. But as Christians and through our pastors, we need people who will tell us what are the biblical foundations for the great truths that made America what it is? Well, then let's talk about that. If you were sitting there and these people said, these young people said, we think America, there are certain things that made America great, how would you respond to that question and maybe tie it in with the phrase that's often

used American exceptionalism? So talk about if you believe American exceptionalism and some of the biblical deeper roots of America that you think are so important. Well, let me be clear. I don't believe in American exceptionalism. You know, one historian put it like this. The really exceptional nation among all the 75 or so superpowers in history would be a nation that didn't consider itself exceptional in its time. In other words, everyone does. Now, of course, every nation is distinctive. Every superpower is distinctive. You know, take Britain. Britain would have been nothing without the Navy. And as an island with a fleet, the Navy and Sea Power was crucial. critical to British supremacy when they controlled roughly a court of the world, far bigger in the

Roman Empire. Every great nation sees itself as exceptional, and it's true that they're distinctive and unique in some way. But when Americans use the term, they mean almost immune to the run on rules of history. No, no one's immune. So America's not exceptional in any way that's going to be lasting or keep it afloat unless it lives the way that freedom requires because America's built on freedom not power or something else so you ask all right where did it come from well you know tockville alexey de talkville a great french visitor he said America had a double founding obviously the formal official founders Washington Jefferson Franklin and you know that and so on that's the one, but the other founding, the Puritans, the Puritans. What do they bring? Well, the Puritans were part of the

Reformation, and we've got to see here, if you go back to the early church, when Rome declared Rome Christian officially, not Constantine, but Theodosius in 380 AD. The church, wittingly or otherwise, let historians describe, copied Roman structures politically. And what were they? Well, Rome had Caesar, consuls, senators. And lo and behold, what did the church have? Popes, cardinals, bishops. Now, Rome was hierarchical based on the power of ranking. And so was the church. And it was a famous staying by a Catholic layman, Lord Acton, all power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts. He was criticizing in that letter his own church. He disagreed with people infallibility, for example. But that's what created. And as historians say, all power corrupts, and all power corrupts

the powerful, as well as oppressing the weak. So the Reformation said, is that biblical? No. What is biblical? They went back to what the 17th century after the 16th called the Hebrew Republic. In other words, the founding of God's nation in Exodus and the renewal of God's nation under Moses, Deuteronomy. The whole of Deuteronomy is the renewal of a covenant. And as you probably know, Sean, in the 18th century, if you look at all the books that were cited, The most quoted was not John Locke, Thomas Hobbes, Cicero, or something like that. Marriage was never meant to be effortless, but it was meant to endure.

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that were behind the English Revolution, which failed. It's caused the lost cause, and the English Republic lasted 10 years. That's not very long. But what was the losing cause in England became the winning cause in New England. The Mayflower Compact is a covenant. John Winthrop's speech on the Arbella was a covenant.

Even Jefferson and Franklin, who weren't the most ardent of evangelicals, to put it mildly, you know, when they were asked to produce a seal for the new United States, they both chose a seal from the Exodus and the Red Sea. And you could go on down the line. John Adams said, the Hebrews have done more to civilize humanity than any other people on earth. They knew the debt, not to Rome, not to Greece. yes they read the Greek and Roman stuff they knew the debt to the Bible and the tragedy is you don't hear pastors I'm not calling for people to politicize their sermons we don't want political sermons we want

biblical sermons including the great truths of the Hebrew scriptures that give us human dignity truth freedom justice peace all the great principles that made this country in the beginning and need to remake it today. Connect a couple things for me, Asa, if you will, that you are very clear that you don't believe in American exceptionalism, but you're a foreigner and you're deeply concerned about the state of the American Union and you don't want it to fail. So why do you not want it to fail and have concern for it,

but don't believe in American exceptionalism? Well, I believe in the distinctiveness of the American Republic. Don't misunderstand me. But that exception, we're exceptional because of that, we don't follow the running rules of history and we'll last. No, no, you won't. America will decline unless there's a renewal in biblical terms too. So I don't believe in exceptionalism, but I'm a great admirer of the American Republic because it is the closest modern system that is close to the scriptures themselves. And of covenantal systems, there are really only three in history. They're relatively rare. The Jews, the Swiss, and the Americans.

And of course, the American is the world's superpower is more important. Now, I admire it because it's the best counter to the danger of power and the authoritarianism and totalitarianism that's sweeping the world. So if America fails, clearly the European nations are not so clear and they're well down the path of decline to put it mildly. Even my own nation, Britain tragically in the last 10 years, just degenerating before our eyes and denying many of the things like freedom of speech and religious freedom, which the English were in the forefront of pioneering. So Europe is in a sad state of disarray. But if America goes to, then there's no real counter to Xi Jinping and his boys. Okay, so you might have answered the question that I was really wanted to ask you, you're an evangelist and you're an apologist. And yet you're writing multiple books about the state of America.

Why so concerned about this republic moving forward? In some ways, you may have just answered that because the domino effects for freedom throughout the world and in Europe. But are there any other reasons why it's so important that at this stage in your life and your career, you're writing, and you're focusing on this? Well, Sean, you're an apologist. I'm an apologist, and I love it. And your dad's a great one, too, and many others who are our friends. What I'm doing is exactly the same when I'm defending human dignity. But I view it all as apologetics, except it's not personal.

I love that too. In other words, arguing for the faith to bring people to know the Lord. I love that. This is arguing for the faith in terms of public life. Can we create and build and establish and sustain a society that's based on the high principles that are there at the heart of faith? You know, freedom is God's gift to humanity. Now, does that mean just you and I have freedom personally, spiritually, so we're saved? That's it?

No. It should mean that we have a way of living and a way of living together, as the Bible shows us, where we can be free and a wider way and bring in justice and so on. What's so unique about 250 years? Is there some historians argue that great nations often survive about 250 years? I've heard this argument. Is there something pressing you, motivating? Do you buy that argument that a lot of nations will last, say, 250 years and then decline? Or do you view it differently? I do view it differently. Those are the cyclical historians who view it. you, you know, rise, flourishing, decline, and fall always in certain cycles. Now, some fastened on 250, the average years in which superpowers have lasted in power. Others take it a little more slowly, Chinese cyclical historians. The Muslims are a little shorter than the Chinese,

and it's people like John Glob in the last century, who fastened on two, I don't believe in any of that. I don't think biblical history is cyclical. And I love the fact that while the secular pairing is decline and fall, and obviously since the 18th century, the decline and fall of the Roman Empire were they were given, that's become the way most Westerners see it, decline and fall. That isn't the biblical pairing. I love the fact that the biblical pairing is exile and return. return or possible return. In other words, exile, if people don't follow the will of the Lord,

the way of the Lord, there are social consequences. Adam and Eve are east of Eden. Cain, a wander in the earth. Israel, captive under Babylon, and so on. So the church in deep decline and corruption at times. If we leave the way of the Lord, as America has done now, we're not living the way of the Lord here. We've abandoned things like, say, truth and so on. America will decline. Two and two equals four, America will decline and fall if she leaves the way of the Lord. But the biblical view of exile is followed by return or the potential of return. Interestingly, most American Christians immediately quote two chronicles seven.

If my people. But as you know well, Sean, Solomon didn't. follow what he said. He flouted what he was told to be as a king, had too many wives, too many horses, too many self-inflating monuments. He became a second Pharaoh with conscription and slavery, and the revolt against him in his son's time divided the kingdom forever. Solomon is not the example that we should follow. We should follow Moses and the other prophets. Moses. Moses. Jesus, Deuteronomy 30, if you return to me, says the Lord, and he's predicting exile, even before they got to the promised land, Moses predicts there'll be an exile because they leave the Lord.

But he said, if you return to me, I will return to you and restore your fortunes. And you see that in many of the other prophets right through to Malachi. Now, that's the story of the church. The church often declines. The American church is decreasing. declining. There's immense amount of, well, look at the mainline churches, they've lost the faith altogether. They are being acculturated into oblivion. And much of evangelicalism is so profoundly worldly, it needs renewal again. But you remember that wonderful, I got the quote from that

wonderful quote from G. K. Chesterton, six times, and he was looking over the course of history, six times the church has gone to the dogs. But in each case, it was the dog. that died. Why? Because a revival, renewal, reawakening. And that is our hope, exiled and return, if we return to the Lord. So my hope and prayer is that Christians in America next year will examine their hearts, see where we've drifted spiritually as well as politically, and seek to rededicate ourselves and renew ourselves before the Lord. In other words, we need an Israel, Nehemiah moment, and they saved Judaism. Okay, so I want to come back in a minute to where you think we've aired politically.

You said left or right. But right now, I imagine some people listening are saying, Dr. Askenis, this sounds a lot like Christian nationalism. You're saying we need an Ezra. You've also talked about our roots in Deuteronomy, where there's kind of exile and return, and that we need a renewal of our biblical faith. Is this similar to Christian nationalism, and if not, how is it distinct?

Emphatically, not. Now, that notion of Christian nationalism was actually an elite notion among the educated, who are mostly globalists and therefore against nation states anyway in the name of internationalism, but we've got to think it through. I follow the Bible, of course, but George Orwell, who is an atheist, put it very simply. Patriotism is good. Nationalism is bad. What's the difference? Every human, again, we're back to apologetic, Sean, needs meaning, belonging, and purpose. Now, patriotism answers belonging. We belong to families. We belong to communities. We belong to nations. You guys are Americans. I'm British and Irish. We all belong and we need to belong. Patriotism is being grateful and proud of the place you belong to. Nationalism is idolatrous because it says the place I belong to, right or wrong.

So the nation becomes God. Now that was incredibly dangerous in the 19th century with the rise of nationalists, things like national socialism. And it became a curse. And so it's understandable, people reacted and became globalists, internationalists, rather than nationalists. But actually, globalism is the new idol. So we are neither nationalists. We're not nationals. We are patriots, but not nationalists. And the gospel is global, but it also speaks to the nation. So you've got to be clear about that. I am not in favor of Christian nationalism, but we've got to remember that that insult is often unfair. It wipes out patriotism too, and patriotism is very important. That's a great distinction between Christian nationalism and a Christian's love for home,

which is a kind of patriotism. I think the way you described that in the book, and you also say, there's a certain kind of gratitude that comes from a healthy kind of patriotism, a thankfulness of where we come from. I think that's balanced as well. You spoke about England earlier, and correct me if I'm wrong, as if it's either almost gone or gone, and America is kind of following behind it in some sense. So how do we know when a nation you think has gone too far and renewal is not possible anymore? We don't. We're humans. Only the Lord knows that and that's how we got to turn to him I don't know at a certain point people in a declining nation don't turn back to the Lord and at some point and I don't know it I'm a human there's a point of no

return when we reach that I don't know now if the Lord tells someone that directly it's not their speculative guess I'll listen to them but I don't know but the point is everything in me suggests that this is a providential moment coming up next year. So 250th, on the 200th, if you may not remember back then. You weren't the eminent apologists back then that you are now. Your dad was, though? That's true. I was born in 1776, by the way, the bicentennial. That's wonderful for you, the gift of that year. But, you know, there was a famous book the year you were born by Robert Bella called The Broker. covenant. And he analyzed the covenant that came in with the Puritans had gone. In all sorts of ways, it had been secularized out of recognition. So the last presidents who

talked, Lyndon Johnson talked about our covenant with the land. That's rubbish. We have a responsibility for the land with a covenant with each other under the Lord. Bill Clinton talked about the new covenant. But then he fell foul of moral things. He never gave any explanation of what the new covenant was. It's gone. Here's my point, though. Bella said the covenant is broken. Not a single American leader or pastor that I know of has tried to restore and repair the government since then. So 50 years later, the covenant has not only broken, it's been entirely forgotten. And that's dangerous. That's behind the crisis of the Constitution.

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and name different presidents. So I'd love to hear your critique. Let's start with the left and then we'll move to the right. What is your concern and the critique for the left today in America? Well, the problem of the left is obvious. It is the radical critique of cultural Marxism, the so-called Long March for the Institutions starting in the late 60s. And of course, that has joined forces. What we saw after October the 7th was radical Marxism, the Long March, the radical left, joining forces with radical Islamism, which goes back to the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in 1941, the year of my birth, joining forces with Hitler. Now, radical Marxism, radicalismism, the so-called red-green alliance, has flourished on American campuses and now increasingly

in some of the cities you take, say, the new mayor of New York. That is the end of the American experiment, if it goes further. So Trump, thank God, represents pushback. But push is not return and transformation. That's a much deeper challenge. So I say thank God for the pushback, getting rid of wokeism. But people who say that wokeism is dead, have surely wrong. It is well, alive and well, certainly in the universities, and in many of the huge foundations with their philanthropic lages, people like George Soros, the left is far from dead. And unless the right or conservatism, more importantly, does it well, there'll be another pushback from the other direction. So to me, it's sad that President Trump has revenge lawfare. Understandably,

he was treated abominably, the Russian collusion hoax, etc., etc., and all the impeachments. They were abominable. But if he just responds in kind, what happens when he goes? next side will do the opposite you'll have ricocheting backwards and forwards the same problem you need a Lincoln style leader who will say to America we can't be how slave half free we've got to resolve this one

well you put it in biblical terms we are rather like the Galatians your Paul says who's bewitched you you came to faith through one gospel and now you're following a different gospel works, not grace. And I'm saying to America, not only me, but others too,

who's bewitched you? You came to freedom through one revolution, the biblical one, and now you're following another revolution, the French one, which will lead in a completely different direction. You've got to choose. You're right,

that is somewhat of a clear critique coming from the West, the way you described it. I'm sorry, from the left. But what about the right? What's your critique of the right? I don't recall you talking about this as much in your earlier books as you do now. Is that because it's become a little bit more pressing than what it was in the past? So I guess two questions. What's your critique of the right? And do you feel like it's a growing critique we should be more and more concerned about? Now, I've got to be careful here. I admire this country. I have passionate American friends. So I'm not attacking America.

Just take first something rather obvious the way the right, the MAGA movement, is splintering. And you have people like on the extremes, like the more moderates like Tucker Carlson, and the real extremes like Nick Fuentes. And people are anti-Semitic and arguing on behalf of Hitler rather than Churchill and stuff like this. This is abominable coming from the right. Now let's look, and I'll say it very carefully with our president, thank God that he's pushed back against the left. I truly mean that, thank God. But notice how often he relies on power plays and his politics is all personalist. It's about him.

Those are two very, very dangerous things that are very different. You know, the opening statement of Rick Warren's book on calling, it's not about you. That needs to be said to every American politician. It's not about you. As leaders, you should be servants of the Republic, of the people you're leading. And sadly, on the conservative right, that's not happening. And there's going to be a pushback. There will be a pushback.

There already is a pushback. No King's Movement and many, many others. There's going to be a pushback because this is not the American Republic that the conservative movement's fighting for. Now, Speaker Johnson, he understands that well. One of his slogans is restore the republic. But his voice is very, very rare. Most people are just mager without saying what made America great in the first place. And that's the tragedy.

It won't succeed without putting back in. What made America great in the first place? So remind us again before we move on, if you were to sum it up, what did make America great in the first place? Well, let me put it in terms of St. Augustine. He would argue, put it in modern terms, you don't judge the state of a nation by the size of its population or the throw weight of its missiles

or the strength of its aircraft carriers or whatever. You ask what it loves to. supremely, St. Augustine, and see how that's doing. What does America love supremely? There's no question that the world would say freedom. But America's screwing up what it takes to be a free society. I mean, you take a simple example, which is a matter of neglect rather than malice. For the framers and for the Bible, freedom requires the rule of law. but that's the public expression. It requires the role of character and virtue in private.

All the framers said that. I call it the golden triangle of freedom. Freedom requires virtue. Virtue requires faith. Faith requires freedom. It goes round. That's gone. All the framers say that, Washington, Jefferson, Franklin,

whether they were evangelicals like Patrick Henry or Orthodox believers like George Mason or deists like Thomas Jefferson, They all believe that. Who believes that today? It's gone. You know, as modern Americans, not just the libertarians, modern Americans have an unrealistic view of freedom. They've lost the biblical and the framers view.

And freedom won't last the way it's being practiced today. It's as simple as that. Two and two will never make five. One of the interesting sections that jumped out to me as an apologist is you talk about kind of the three main religious systems or worldviews. So secularism, Eastern religions, which you include New Age, and then the Jewish and Christian faiths. You argue that it's the kind of Judaism and Christianity together that can provide a basis for robust freedom. But why can't secularism or the East, in principle, Eastern faiths,

provide the basis for a robust freedom? Well, just take history, Sean. Was there freedom in the ancient world? No. The ancient world was ruled by fate. It was in your stars or whatever it was. You take the Delphic oracle. You know, Laotis is told his son will murder him and marry his mother. So they do his parents, Oedipus, his parents, do everything they can to beat the Oracle. Everything they do makes it all the more certain the Oracle comes true. In other words, fate. You can't do otherwise. all other people can do is look with sorrow and pity on someone who's a victim of fate. That's the ancient world. You say, but we're modern.

But have you ever thought, I know you have, Sean, all the great atheists, Marx, Freud, Dawkins, Sam Harris, Jacques Mono, there's not one of them who believes in freedom. If you look by reason alone, by science alone, you can't find freedom. They believe in determinism. All the great atheists are determinists. I don't know a system like the Bible that gives you a strong view of freedom. But God, who is a free God, free in his creation, let there be in the wars, creates humans in his image C.S. Lewis calls us subcreators rather than creators.

God respects our freedom. Even some Christians they think because of original sin there's no freedom, the bondage of the world. You take say, our Lord's words to Kane. He's thinking of murdering. And the Lord says, sin is crouching at the door. Kane has a choice there. Now, sadly, he goes out, follows his impulses and murders able. But the Lord speaks to him as a free agent

who can make a decision in the next seconds that are going to be determined. He does have freedom. Repentance is freedom. It's not as fully free as when we're saved. No, we're well down the line. We may have becoming obsessed or addicted to whatever we're into, whether it's drink or drugs

or bad behavior. We may be losing our freedom. We can through addiction. by making all bad choices. But repentance is actually the final freedom we still have to turn back to the Lord. So we should be the champions of freedom, the atheist can't. You know, you're right about that. When you think about people like Dawkins argues it's kind of a kind of genetic determinism

that drives our behavior and drives morality. Sam Harris wrote a whole book on how there's no such thing as freedom. And yet I've been reading Deuteron. me as you referenced over and over again for the past maybe four to six weeks. And one of the key verses is today choose life to the nation of Israel. You have a choice laid out before you. Now, I imagine a skeptic might say, okay, in principle, they have a choice whether they follow or not, but God lays this kind of draconian rules on top of them and says, if you don't follow this, you'll have pestilence and all this judgment. And things will go.

go terrible for you. And if they follow, then in Duranomy, things will go well. So they have choice, but is it really any kind of choice when it's just two extremes laid out for them when Israel was first founded? But remember, you're obviously focusing on the negative side of judgment, all the dreadful things that happen to them. And the Jews read that every year with incredible awe and trembling. Now, but the point is, judgment in the Bible is not God's zapping us you know kind of drone strike from on high like killing of salamani on the airport no no judgment in the scripture sometimes is that but it more often god's leaving us or driving us to the logic of our own settled choices if we do certain things

certain things will happen we'll be reaping the harvest we've sewn the wind we've sewn the and we'll reap the whirlwind and so on we've got to remember that it's the logic of our own settled choices so the Lord's just giving them a choice is it's not a threat he's setting out a choice and if they want to reap the logic of what it is to leave them well for example Israel's a tiny nation and it lives Armageddon in the world between empires Egypt Babylon, Assyria Greece, wrong. And not surprisingly, they are the plaything of these great superpowers. And when they leave the Lord, what do they expect?

They're a little football kicked around by the superpowers. It's not saying, I'm going to judge you by that. He does use the superpowers to judge and deliberate them. But if they want to play without him, that's the world they're in. And that is the same. American freedom left to itself. will produce chaos and the unraveling of America takes a school shootings. We've had tragically shootings this very weekend.

Again, I've heard people say, all right, more guns. That was the response to the shooting at Brown University. The constant in the American school massacres and the shootings is obviously the gun. The gun is only the how. What's the why? the why is the loner and you can see so many of them from Columbine on were people with broken homes and all sorts of things like this who want to wreak their revenge on the school or society the neighborhood that they feel victimized them in some way

and so we got to be sure if we leave the law there will be consequences America will go down in a welter of chaos and corruption So if you were a pastor, what would this look like for you in terms of addressing the area of politics? Because right now churches are just dividing and people are divided and there's polarized internally about supporting this candidate, support that candidate. You have a reference in the book that the pulpit really needs to return to be the place where people speak truth. what advice would you give for pastors and others to approach the importance of the issues you're talking about here without getting what might be considered too political? Sean, that's a huge question to be towards the end.

I would just say very simply, much preaching has been overly privatized and overly politicized. I love the old saying, politics is not the first thing. And the first thing to say about politics is that politics is not the first thing. So it's not the business of the preacher to tell us how to vote and to get into all the policy. That's politicized in the pulpit. But it is the business of the preacher to go beyond the purely private, bringing us to faith and then seeing we're built up as disciples, to preach the whole council of God. And it was the whole council of God rediscovered in the reform.

that gave rise to modern freedom, things like covenant that I mentioned. So how many pastors are comfortable in preaching the Exodus and preaching Deuteronomy? Not in terms of our contemporary policies, no, but the great biblical truths without which we won't have free societies. Sadly, I haven't heard much of it. Too much preaching is overly privatized or overly politicized. Would that we had people? I mean, you read a book like, like, say, Leon Cass is the founding of God's nation. There are magnificent truths that should excite pastors to leap up out of their socks. The freedom to preach these great biblical truths, I mean, Exodus alone, it's the master narrative of human freedom for the whole of the West.

It's also the greatest sustained critique of the abuse of power the world's ever seen. why aren't we preaching it today over against the authoritarianism we're seeing? We should be excited out of our minds by these great biblical truths. I love that balance between being politicized but also being to privatize. There's a balance there that biblical truths apply to our life and our cultural moment, but we've got to go back to the text and preach them fervently. All right, so let me bring this full circle, if I can. We're coming up on this 250th year anniversary of America.

What would you like to see happen? What would you prefer that would tell you were possibly on the road towards renewal? I would like to see, and this is actually underway, whether it'll come out as we really hope and pray, I don't know. But out of a group of Christians in the house, congratulations. congressional members, there's come a call to make May the 7th, which is the annual day of prayer, congressionally approved, originally led by people like Vonnet Bright and so on, a magnificent day, to make the annual day of prayer next year a day of prayer and national rededication. And at the height of it, and there would be an event on Capitol Hill and local events around the country,

at the heart of it there will be three things one thanksgiving americans have an immense amount to thank the lord for secondly confession the very ideals of the american experiment like the declaration of independence are the standards by which america will be judged and then thirdly rededication to america's first principles. Now someone's got to show people what they are, but those three elements. Thanks, confession and rededication. Take confession. You read Lincoln's prayers and confessions. They are magnificent at the time of the Civil War. We've forgotten God and all that that meant. You need a leader today. I mean, there are leaders and you can know who, who think the confession is weakness. No. Putting right what's wrong is the way to go forward. It's not a question of going back and wallowing

in self-deprecation, but clearing the guilt of the past to go forward into the future. So forgiveness is incredibly important and Christians have got a show. Put another way, Sean. Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, was for Israel's national sin, the sin of the golden calf. It was, wasn't just for individuals. America needs atonement. How could the radicals, even after Martin Luther King, twist the knife into America's guilt, particularly the guilt say a Southern Christian. Looking for a simple way to stay rooted in God's Word every day? The Daily Bible Devotion app by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you connected with scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy daily Bible trivia and humor. A fun way to

learn and share a smile while growing in your faith. Get the Daily Bible Devotion app for free on both iOS and Android. Start and end your day with God's Word. Search for the Daily Bible Devotion app in the App Store or Google Play Store and download it today. ...who had justified slavery. The radicals in the left were able to twist the knife because there is still unaddressed, unresolved guilt in America. Now, I'm English. In England, evangelicals are proud of the fact. Who were the abolitionists? They were evangelicals. We don't have guilt in our hands. We thank God evangelicals like Las Casas in the 16th century. We're on behalf of freedom and reform. But here there's a mixed record. There's a lot of guilt. People feel feel bad, particularly about the

South and so on. And so America needs atonement. But is atonement just for you and me and our friends privately? No. Surely there's a place for Christians to lead a day of confession. We're not doing the atonement next year. Well, I think beyond next year, there's a place for that too. In other words, we've got to take some of these great spiritual truths and make them for America, too, we who love the nation. I have a ton more questions for you, but I want people to pick up your book. So my last question is in preparation for the 250th anniversary, I would say, obviously, we can be in prayer about this. Your book, America Agonistis, is just a clarion call to think through the cultural moment we find ourselves in. You really encourage not just Christians, but all people to say, what does it mean to be free?

Where did our freedom come from? How do we maintain our freedom? I mean, this book is an invitation for the church and beyond at this 250-year benchmark to reflect on that in a way we never have done before. So I encourage people to pick up your book, talk about it, talk with your kids about it, but anything else we should know and do in preparation for this year so we can just respond biblically in this moment. No, I think you put it well.

Pray, think, see where we've slipped. and then learn to bring our apologetics out into political discussion, taking ideas that people have and pushing them to the limit and showing there's a better story. You know, all the things we do in terms of atheism or Hinduism or Marxism, whatever it is, on the personal level, bringing people to faith, we need to do it. That's what Elijah did to the nation.

You know, up on Kumana, Elijah didn't say come back to God or Israel is going to fall apart. He said, if bail is God, follow bail. How can he say that? Well, he knows bail is not God. Now, we know that on the personal level apologetically. But I wish Christians would bring apologetics out of the personal and bring it into a public persuasion on all levels.

But above all, pray, I believe, I may be wrong. The Lord knows the answer. humanly speaking, next year could be providential because people are forced to think about it. We mustn't just be content with fireworks and flyovers. Unless there's a serious reflection, serious putting right what needs to be put right, and a return to the best of the American experiment, the days of the Republic are over. Now, that doesn't mean America collapses. No, America could be a democracy in name only.

could be a powerful modern nation for a long time. But the Republic, which really was a form of freedom like no other, that will be gone. If I may, one more question. I would love to hear you just tell me a little bit more what you mean by kind of applying our apologetics in the political realm. Because I think people hear that. And I realize this is an entire conversation in itself. We could spend another hour on what this would look like. But maybe just a principle or thought onto what it would look like.

like in your mind to do apologetics well. And the way, in fact, the way you phrased it was kind of arguing for a better story. So it's less about political power. It's less about a political party. It's ultimately about the story of Christianity as I hear you. But give us some guidelines or principles of what you think that might look like. Well, take next year in the Declaration. Clearly, the Declaration is the heart of the brilliance of American independence. A book came out a month called the greatest sentence ever written what they mean we hold these truths to be self-evident that all you know you know the sentence certainly it's a great sentence the best sentence in the declaration but just take two things it's not the greatest i mean john 316

is infinitely greater but just take what it is we hold these truths to be self-evident they didn't follow it they wrote that and said said that and kept their slaves. And that's the original sin of the American Revolution, tragically. And we've got to own up to that. Or take a second part, more logical. We hold these truths to be self-evident. Why'd they say that? They would never have been self-evident to Plato or to Aristotle, or to the Hindus who have untouchables as well as Brahmin, or to the great captains of history like Alexander and so on. It's an absurd statement.

Why is it self-evident? Who is it self-evident to? Only one group, the readers of the Bible, Jews and Christians. Now, once, you've got a very important statement there. Christians can tackle that apologetically. Yes, it's a fantastic statement. Only if you know the people are made in the image of God, the poor as well as the rich, the plain as well as the beautiful, and go on down the line.

Only to biblical people, Jews and Christians, is that true? So Americans have an apologetic opportunity, even discuss something that's going to be the most discussed saying of next year. And we've got to do that across the board with freedom, what we are talking about with our atheist friends, Sam Harris. You know, he has a puppet on the front cover of his book. Why? Freedom is illusion. We are puppets.

figure out scientifically what drives us, we can never do otherwise than we've done. That's not freedom. That's determinism. You know, we have an incredible opportunity. That's what I mean by dealing with these big political issues apologetically. Now, you could call that prophetic rather than apologetic, but I see no difference. It's all seamless to me. Arguing for truth on the personal level.

call it apologetics. On the public level, call it something else. But they're all the same. Very helpful. I love that distinction and that challenge to kind of seize the cultural moment we're in to talk about the issues that matter most, ultimately to try to be compelling to the story that you and I believe and know is ultimately true. As always, enjoyed the read. It's provocative. It's interesting. It's called American Agonistas. Going to hold a copy. Just came out. And friends in light of this 250 years, let's be in prayer for our country. Let's be in prayer for our leaders. A book like this will make you think and reflect upon how unique in some ways America is

and pray for renewal in our country and beyond. Because if you heard today, a lot is at stake. Before you click away, make sure you hit subscribe. We got a lot of other programs like this coming up where we want to challenge and equip you to be an apologist and evangelist and just think biblically about cultural issues today. We've got a master's program and apologetics online and in person. We'd love to have you think about joining us. Information is below.

We also have totally updated our certificate program. If you're not ready for a master's, but you want to learn how to defend the faith, there is a significant discount below in the description. We will see you soon. Again, Oskinnis, thanks for joining me, and I hope folks pick up America Agonistis. Can I just say it's only on Amazon?

I self-published it in order to put out three or four books fast in one year. So only in Amazon, you heard it, which is why you have a quick turnaround, and so many of the examples seem just incredibly timely and relevant. So well done. Thank you. Hey, friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that follow button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning in haven't done this yet, and it makes a huge difference in helping us reach and equip more people. and build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review.

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