The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller & Adam Scott - S1E5: The Grim Barbarity Of Optics and Design (with Jen Tullock)

Episode Date: January 10, 2025

Ben and Adam are joined for a recap of Season 1 Episode 5 by the inimitable Jen Tullock, aka Mark's sister "Devon." They consider Devon and Ricken's unlikely courtship, the concept of "birthing retreats," and some far-out fan theories from Reddit about the mysterious baby goats. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode of the Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is brought to you by Confluence by Atlassian, the connected workspace where teams can create, organize, and deliver work like never before. Set knowledge free with Confluence. Hey, I'm Ben Stiller. I'm Adam Scott. And this is the Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every episode of Severance. Today, we're recapping Season 1, Episode 5, The Grim Barbarity of Optics and Design, written by Anna Ouyang Munch and directed by Aoife McArdle.

Ben, how have you been? I've been pretty good. It's been at least, I don't know, 11 hours since we've seen each other. In that time, the Knicks lost a game they should have won last night. I'm so sorry. Now, what does that mean, they lost a game, that they should have won? It means they lost a game they should have won. Thank you for clearing that up. They should have beaten, it was Utah, and they should have beaten Utah, and they lost a game they should have won. Thank you for clearing that up. They should have beaten. It was Utah, and they should have beaten Utah, and they're a better team. And it didn't affect my mood or anything, though, last night. Oh, good, good. I didn't notice.

No, you know what? I've never seen the fate of the Knicks affect your mood at all, or maybe I just don't know. Did you ever see me watching a knicks game on set ever yes i did actually all right okay we'll edit that out though i i scratch that um did i ever tell you that as a 16 17 year old i was really into spikely and so i grew a goatee and wore a knicks cap everywhere for a while no you did not having not tell me that. Not having, as a teenager, followed basketball at all, nor did I once I started wearing the cap. Wait a minute.

The goatee was to be like Spike Lee? Yes. And the cap was to identify with the Knicks? Yeah, I got it. How did that work out? Well, not great. It was probably, I'm sure it's offensive in one way or the other but mostly it's it you know actually there is a photo of me with the cast of crimes of the heart

the play that i was directing and i was sure to wear the nix cap have the goatee, and horn-rimmed glasses in the photo. We can cut all this out as well. I like the image of Adam Scott trying to be Spike Lee. Trying to be Spike Lee. Okay, well, you know, today we are lucky enough to be joined by the great Jen Tulloch, who plays Devin on the show, my character's sister. So, Jen Tulloch, welcome to the pod. Hey, guys.

I'm sorry I'm late. It was just coming straight from a Utah celebration party. And let me tell you, the spirits were high. It was just great to be in a room with winners. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Which Utah team was that? The ball team.

Ball sports. Ball sports team. All right. The Utah ball sports team. That's a good team. Jen, you're awesome. It's great to see you. Oh, you're awesome.

It's great to see you guys too. I've missed you. What about me? Am I? She said Jen. Oh, she got it. No, I said yeah. I was to Ben. guys oh she got no i said yeah i was to ben yeah thank okay so it was to ben yeah just in the spirit of transparency i don't want to i don't want to set you up for disappointment here great to see you jen you're terrific did you guys know

each other at all before we started doing the show no no that's so crazy. We met, though, for the first time when we were coming out for the table read in March of 2020. Yeah, what a wonderful time that was. We met in the very strange sort of holding area that they take you to on a fancy plane, which isn't awkward at all if you've never spoken to someone. Luckily, Adam is lovely. And I think there was like politics up on the screen and i remember very clearly immediately firing my mouth off because i was nervous and being like i don't know what this guy thinks halfway through immediately just telling you all of the ins and outs of my personal political beliefs right right as i recall

it was like just like a week or something before everything got locked down. Wasn't it? We were all together as if we were going to make the show. And then a few days later, everything was shut down. That was crazy because we all saw each other and then we didn't see each other for a long, long time. I have such a Pavlovian response now to the sound of the hand pumps of the hand sanitizer at the table read. Because we didn't know we were just everyone was doing their best and it was sort of like okay we'll we'll elbow bump and everyone will

sort of manically use this hand sanitizer and then two days later it was like go home yeah it was everything was shut down it was wild i think i think that shutdown though really you know kind of ended up helping us in the show in terms of having time to figure out stuff that we were still trying to figure out as we were rolling into production that's good to hear it was such a wild time to get to know everybody as well i told adam this before but we have a hug in one of our earlier scenes at least one of the earlier scenes that we shot and we shot it and then when we cut i like stepped away because i teared up because i realized i hadn't hugged anyone like it was it was the first

physical contact i had had in a very long time and it was like oh great this girl but it was it was very sweet no yeah and i kind of feel like it was our – not knowing each other particularly well, but this kind of Mark and Devin relationship kind of clicked in really, really fast. It did. Really. Yeah, you guys were just on the same wavelength right away. Yeah. And I think that was really – I remember when you guys read together, there was so much chemistry there. And I didn't really know all about your background, Jen, but you're a writer and director. And, you know, that's an amazing thing when you hire an actor who also is a cooler group of people. And also, I think, to Adam's credit, that dynamic felt easy to develop quickly because he was so kind and warm and available.

The first thing I shot, and you guys have been working for a couple months, I think, when I came in, was the first time we see each other in the show, which was opening the door. Was it? Devin's knocking on the door yeah and i remember thinking how emblematic it was because you just between every take i was totally the new kid and you were uh very warm and asking me about my life and um you were also i think had just been very sick and i thought it was especially nice that you were in sort of the throes of a fever and still wanting to chat. That's a really challenging thing for actors to have to do is to create a whole inner life and past history. Someone who's playing your sibling when you've just met them. Yeah. And you guys did that very well.

And I think it's just, you know know because you guys were so attuned and so talented and so understanding of what that is to jump in it's almost like as i think uh you know challenging as a love scene or something like that too because you know you're creating something that the audience really has to buy and believe and so much of Devin and Mark's relationship is unspoken and is in the history and the language you have together. Yeah. And I think that a lot of that, too, I don't know about you, Jen, but the writing was such that there wasn't that scene where it's like, well, you know, since we're sister and brother

and our parents died when we were three or what, there's expository scenes that we kind of all roll our eyes at that for an audience, I think is alienating and you don't actually feel like you're watching siblings. In here, we had the room to develop this relationship and we didn't have the responsibility of hitting all those expository beats so we could fill it with behavior. And I think that was more beneficial to us, but also to to the show and also being given that room by our directors. Absolutely. And I think Dan Erickson mentioned early on that he had in some based Devin on his own sister and his own relationship with his sister. So I feel like you can feel that it isn't forced, which is great.

Yeah, I have a sister. And I realize that dialogue, so much of it is when you're talking to a sibling, is just sort of the love and the history and all that is just, you just take that for granted. So a lot of the back and forth is, you know, just like quibbling about things or joking with each other about things or getting annoyed with each other about things. But there's such a basis of trust and love because you're siblings that, you know, that's what you're talking about. Dan didn't worry about putting all that in the dialogue it was already there and so i felt like it was dan and you two kind of all

came together to really were just in sync metaphysically or something before you and you and if i really helped us uh you gave us the space to find that and it didn't feel rigid in any way like we had mile markers to meet and um i think once we roasted each other once off camera, it was like, oh, yeah, we're good. We're cruising. Yeah. I also remember thinking when I learned about what you do, Jen, just thinking, oh, she's really smart and talented. And I hope she thinks this is good. For some reason, I had that with you and zach cherry too yeah like this sort of insecurity

of like wow i hope they like the show when they see it because they're super cool same thing the entire time i was like just we were both on our best behavior oh my god totally yeah that's cool and you know another thing with someone like j Jen is that you can just completely relax, just like all the actors on our show. We're really lucky. But Jen is there to work, and I just know I can completely relax because I know she is prepared and has thought about the thing from all the different angles. She just has that mind. And so you can just sort of let go and jump in the scene together and not think about all of the kind of exterior things we can just kind of connect and go and it's a really

for for another actor at least it's really something a really relaxing sort of great thing likewise my friend totally i feel very lucky should we take a quick break here and then when we come back we'll jump into episode five. Sounds good. Yeah, let's do it. At Lumen, things are not always what they seem. Mark, Dylan, Hellie, and Irving in MDR make a great team, but what else lies beyond the four white walls of their department?

There seem to be more questions than answers as the secrets of Lumen are slowly revealed. There's definitely a lot more going on than you see. It's a little bit creepy. I agree. There are more Q's than A's in this place. Yeah, for sure. But luckily, your workplace doesn't have to be so dysfunctional, thanks to Confluence by Atlassian. I feel like something like Confluence could really help those severed workers, you know?

They're kind of always organizing and trying to come up with group ideas and things that need organization and back and forth and a lot of creative interaction in the workspace. Confluence is the connected workspace where teams can collaborate and create like never before, where teams have easy access to the relevant pages and resources their projects call for, while discovering important context they didn't even know they needed. A space where AI streamlines the things that normally eat up their time, letting teams generate, organize, and deliver work faster. In fact, with Confluence, teams can see a 5.2% average boost in productivity in one year. I think any boost in productivity, especially with a group like the Severed group, imagine how many more files they could complete if they had Confluence.

Set knowledge free with Confluence. Learn more at Atlassian.com slash Confluence. That's A-T-L-A-S-S-I-A-N dot com slash C-O-N-F-L-U-E-N-C-E. I'm Anna Garcia with True Crime News, the podcast. Every crime tells a story. Every story demands justice. True Crime News, the podcast covers breaking crimes, investigating high profile and under the radar cases. Every week we dive beyond the headlines, exploring the effects of violent crimes on victims and search for justice.

We hope you join us as your weekly source for true crime news. Listen to and follow True Crime News, the podcast, on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. So episode five does not ease us in gently. It starts right where we left off in episode four. Helia's just attempted to hang herself in the elevator. Yeah. Which is really striking and horrifying to see. Yeah, I actually watched this episode for the first time with Britt Lauer, who plays Helly.

I watched it at her house with a couple of friends and was sitting next to her on the couch watching that very intense scene. So she was quiet, and I was freaking out internally because I can't imagine what it's like to watch yourself do that. And I think I was just sort of like dunking my sweaty palms into my popcorn bucket. It was hard to watch, but in a beautiful way. I think it's interesting that we see mark's outie in for lack of a better term a depressive episode i mean he's he's having a depressed experience so to see this happen as an act of defiance i felt was an interesting counter to watching someone who is in

despair where we might associate that kind of thing with the latter. And so it was, I don't want to say the act was cool, but how it was contextualized was really cool. And it's one of my favorite episodes, the stuff around those heli scenes. But is that interesting as an actor? Because I'm not great at watching myself. That's one of the things I really like about Severance is that I'm not in it. I get to enjoy the process of making it without having to look at myself. Yeah. Uh, that's one of the things I really like about severance is that I'm not in it. I get to enjoy the process of making it without having to look at myself.

Um, but you guys, you can appreciate it, right? You can, you can appreciate what you do. I don't love watching myself. Um, I think I sort of dissociate when, um, I am on the screen, but luckily there's a lot that I'm not in that I was able to just enjoy as a fan because I didn't know much about the any goings on. So I was legitimately excited to see what happened moment to moment. And then when I happened to wobble in, I would just sort of look at the floor. Well, this is an episode where I hope you watched every single scene you're in because you're incredible, as always. So, okay, so Mark's coming out of a wellness session and he

discovers Hallie and it's horrifying for him, obviously. Grainer shoves him in the elevator and sends him home. So then we just sort of jump to Mark coming right back to work and is, you know, kind of wakes up horrified, walks out of the elevator, and there is Cobell and Milchick waiting for him. They tell him how he's recovering in the hospital. Interestingly, the first thing Mark says to them is, is she alive? They tell him that she is in the hospital and her Audi has no intention of resigning. She'll be back in a few days. And also I think Michael Kempstein is really great in that scene where just sort of like this moment of like something's gone horribly wrong. And he's like, get in the elevator.

Mark, get in the elevator. It's just sort of like it's so messy and chaotic. And just, you know, he's like in this sort of like, you know, mode of just like, you know, like triage mode of, it's like when things get messy in that world, it's not pretty. Yes. Michael is incredible. He really is. And yeah, because you get the feeling that he saw it on the video monitor and hopefully he'll get there before any of the innies discover this and then it's clean and they don't have to deal. But the moment he sees Mark in there, he knows that this is now a mess they'll have to contain.

Yeah. And the first thing he has to do is just turn your innie off so he can deal with the problem. I'm always blown away by, well, all of our actors generally, but the ones in positions of power within Lumen that have to exact these moments with such precision and calculated control. It's such a different experience than Michael Ternus and I, for example, have, which we're able to be soulful and warm and in the moment. And I feel like the skill and intellect required to pull off these moments blows my mind. I also love that character so much. You're right. There is a quality of stillness that both Patricia and Tramiel are able to have where they just can do nothing but hold the sort of tension. And yeah, I agree. It's

really wonderful how they do that. Now, this moment where Cobell and Milchik tell Mark that Helly will be coming back, that her Audi has no intention of resigning is the beginning of a bit of a turning point for Mark. He's been on board up till now with disciplining Heli and keeping her down there. But I think there's just something kind of fundamental here that he deep inside does not agree with and is a bit horrified by, even if he's not kind of consciously aware of it. And this is kind of the beginning of a bit of a turn. Do you think that? Yeah, definitely. And it's coinciding with reading the UUR. Yes. Because I think that's starting to open up his mind. Yes. And that sequence of Mark sort of devouring the book and the, you know, you're just starting to see all these ideas that are

percolating inside of him and, you know, the different quotations and the different thoughts that are, you know, that we see running across the screen, which are both profound and ridiculous. Ridiculous. I mean, and churnus reading them is so much fun to listen to. Do you know some? Well, there's bullies are nothing but bull and lies. That's right. But for Mark, for this innie, these are profound and just mind-blowing. Yeah. And it was interesting when we were putting that episode together in editing was that that sequence, it was both that the sequence of the reading the book and seeing all the words was both.

I was wondering how the audience was going to take it, because for me, it was both funny and kind of the absurdity of his philosophy. But there's also a grain of truth in it that you have to buy. And so, you know, again, in the bubble of making the show, when nobody had seen the show or knew what the show was, that was one of the things at night sometimes I would think about. It's like, oh, will the audience buy this as real or will it seem, you know, too silly? Right. I feel like that needle was threaded so gracefully because, for one thing, I think the assumption generally would be that Mark Zinni and Audi are the same person with different memories. But what Adam does so beautifully and was in the writing and certainly in the direction is that you watch the childlike quality of Mark Zinni and his ability to experience wonder and his ability to experience, like, fandom. I think Audi Mark is maybe a little too bitter and downtrodden, but watching Eni Mark feel inspired by Ricken's words, well, I find it very cute, if you want to know the truth.

Yeah, he's beginning to have this sort of, this idolatrous – is that the right word? Relationship with Rickon and his Audi just thinks he's a fool, obviously. Just completely dismisses him. Yeah, which is one of the simple core ideas of the season. Just that juxtaposition of Innie Mark's relationship with Rickon and Audi Mark. And that to me was always that simplicity of what Dan came up with was what I really felt was just such a smart thing because it's just a natural sort of, okay, you know, these two, at some point, Innie Mark at Rickon and Audi Mark and Rickon are going to,

at some point, this relationship is going to, you know, build to something where, you know, it's fun to think about that. And yeah, I agree, Adam. Your perception of these things and any mark, you're playing it so earnestly and real. That to me is what makes it work. And that's also I think like the weirdness of the tone of the show is that you can start the show with this, you know, very graphic suicide attempt. And then, you know, like halfway into the show, we're, you know, doing that. Yeah.

Innie and Audie Marks seem to kind of their interests are on a bit of a collision course here, it seems. Okay. So now it's time to go out to the birthing retreat. And it's baby time. It's baby o'clock. For Jen and Michael, Mark gets a bunch of panicked voicemails from Rickon when he gets off work. Devin is in labor out at the birthing retreat. Yeah.

Well, birthing cabins. Birthing cabins. Not a concept that I really was familiar with before Dan wrote it up. Me neither. And it's kind of briefly mentioned in the previous episode. Yeah. Then when you look it up, you go, oh, people for natural childbirth. I feel like every white girl yoga teacher in L.A. watched that episode and was like taking notes.

They were like, this is a good idea. I could make a meme book. Yeah. And yeah, I like that little moment where like you're kind of looking on the internet at the cabins and with you and Devin, you're kind of like pretty snarky about it. Yeah. It seems like Devin feels like it's a little silly too. Maybe this is more of a Ricken thing that they're going to the birthing retreat that's by the way something i just wanted to mention from episode four that i didn't get to is when you're uh talking to devin on the phone and you're finished with a phone call and you go okay it's one of my favorite line readings i I do not remember. It's literally like, okay, bye. But it's like, you know, your relationship, like you're talking to your sister or whatever with your voice.

It's one of my favorites. That's funny. So Mark goes up to Devin and Rickon's birthing cabin, runs into Alexa, who he had a disastrous date with, who is Devin and Rickon's doula. And they have an awkward interaction. Nikki James, who is just incredible. She's so good. We should also note that that's Nora Dale doing an excellent job as Gabby. I love the tension there between the two of you. And maybe in another kind of show, it would be like, oh, you're going to rekindle your romance in that scene. But it's kind of just Mark is kind of just still unable to really give anything, even though he's trying to apologize. But it's kind of half-hearted.

And it just felt like a very real moment. Yeah, not particularly good at, you know, sewing up moments. Yeah. good at you know at sewing up moments like yeah and and that's also you know for the audience being on outie mark's side again i feel like you really made sure not to ever try to get the audience to like outie mark right um which i think ends up making it feel more real totally and i think that's why we do like out, Mark, because it's just so honest. Yeah, because you know what's inside of you. Yeah.

But in reality, you know, Mark can't really put himself out like that at this point. He's not there yet. No, no. Which Devin clearly doesn't pick up on because through contractions is still trying to play Yenta. She's like still trying to land the plane for him. That's right. That's right.

That's right. Like she would totally go out with you again. Yeah, you should do it. You should try. Which after that last date, I can't imagine why she would. So then Mark goes into the birthing cabin where Ricken is sobbing over Devon's belly.

He's pleading that he doesn't want to be like his father. Please don't let me be my father. Into's belly. He's pleading that he doesn't want to be like his father. Please don't let me be my father. Into her belly. And she's sort of comforting him. Tolerating him. I mean, good Lord. The amount of improvised things that flew out of Ternus' mouth while we were shooting that one little section was a gift.

He's so great. Yeah, it was, I think, yeah, I think Devin's sick of him. But I think she loves him so much in an almost fraternal way that she forgives all of his frivolities because she also believes him. I think she's chosen to believe him. And that's a choice that she made many years ago for her own comfort and stability. And she's like, yep, this is my person. I'm going to say yes. And do you feel like with this relationship with Devin and Rick and he's always been this version of himself or, and the relationship has been this version of the relationship or are we catching them at a particular moment? might have been before everything went wrong. And I think before that, Ricken was probably

less rigid. I think he was less interested in people's opinion of him. I think he was always interested in people's opinion of him. But I think it was a warmer dynamic that had greater ease between the four of us. And I feel like any friend group, or in this case, family and friend group, when a member steps away or dies, it affects the entire thing. It's a Tetris game. And so I think Gemma's absence has affected the meat really differently. And in Rickon's case, he has grown more and more insecure. He's, you know, he's had to confront the instability and the fact that the people around him, there's no guarantee they will always be there. And so I think Mark and Devin have had their own approaches. Mark's is a very tangible one. He's been severed. And I think Devin's just trying to hold both of them together. Yeah, it seems like the vacuum left by Gemma's absence and now Mark's sort of half absence by giving up half of his life to this place has been filled. You know, Rickon and Mark, theoretically, were pretty close at one point and were, you know, kind of understood each other on a few levels.

And now it seems that, you know, Raken's kind of bought into his own, this like persona thing, and it's just all sort of askew when we find them. I think when their siblings are really close, when their partners enter the picture, there is a much kinder initiation process because there typically is a moment where the sibling who's not with the new partner says, you know what? My brother says yes. My sister says yes. So good for me. I'm going to be friends with this person.

And I think there is probably an element of that, too. Yeah. I think that's really interesting. It's a complicated dynamic what you're just talking about, you know, siblings, grown siblings with partners, how the partners get along with each other, all of that. And, you know, and, and relationships change over the years and dynamics change. Yeah. Uh, so Ricken has these birthing practices that he's getting everyone to participate in, one of which is he asks Mark to share a secret which will create a soul void to speed up labor. No one seems to

know exactly what that means. I know what that means. Well, of course, you know what it means. Just because I have two children. You created a soul soul void on the second one oh but what is interesting when you think about that is in the writing uh if you had sort of been told this is how we're going to set up the idea of mark telling devin the secret about what he's thinking about it's going on at lumen that petey told him. We're going to set it up by Ricken saying someone should tell a secret so that they can create a

soul void and release themselves of that guilt or whatever it is so that later Mark can be asked by Devin to tell a secret. Totally. It's a great way to kind of sneak it in there and also for us to get the information that that rickon is aware uh that the book has not been commented upon by

audi mark and that audi mark isn't even aware that there was a book so yeah it's probably he might have even made it up just so that he could say that to mark to find out why he hadn't gotten the book yeah he's clearly fishing for a compliment or an acknowledgement like he created the soul void thing just to that's right that's so interesting yeah that's great and it's interesting because there's this moment where mark and rick and are hanging kelp in the birthing room and mark's asking him what does this why are we doing this and rickens is kind of like, do you really want me to explain it? Like you think everything I say is bullshit.

They have this honest moment and Mark just kind of leaves. I really would like him to explain it though. It leaves you wanting more. Yeah. So Devin goes on a bit of a walk here looking for a cup of coffee and uh kind of discovers this this big cabin um this kind of larger cabin do do we want to listen to the clip of her interaction with a woman she finds in there yes she really wants coffee yeah hi i'm so sorry i'm another pregnant lady i'm from over there i just came out on a coffee run and I got distracted by your beautiful coffee and I was wondering if there's any chance you could hook me up.

Uh, okay. Yeah. Yes. Thank you. Thank Christ. Hi. Thank you so much. Squeeze right past you. Oh, I'm Devin. Gabby. Thank you for the narcotics. My husband is driving me fucking crazy.

My brother's... ...suppressing me. Is it your first? Yeah. Yours? My third. I'm naming him William. Three kiddos. I'm so fucking scared of ruining one child. How do you handle it?

A lot of help, I guess. Yeah. Holy shit, by the way. About this cabin. So. Holy shit, by the way, about this cabin. So nice. Hey, Rich. I love the way you play this, Jen. So good.

That dialogue on the page, when you see that dialogue on the page, Jen, and you're going to work, and you're like, okay, I have to get coffee, and I was distracted by your beautiful coffee. Was that dialogue on the page? Beautiful coffee? Or did you say that? Did you make that up? I don't remember. I think I might have added beautiful. But that on the page to me, if you saw that on the page and Dan creates these situations,

it's not like a typical situation. No. I'm not saying it's like the most like you're playing a scene where like you know some awful thing has happened you have to but like to make something like that work or to make that real that's not not the easiest thing to do you know it's a simple thing but and i do find for you as an actress and this is a compliment but i've i find like it's almost impossible for you to say something that doesn't feel real when it comes out of your mouth well thanks um okay yes thank you no no but i'm curious in your process like how you how you process the words and some you know is there something how do you do it i don't know that i do process the words and is there something – how do you do it?

I don't know that I do process the words. I think it's – for Devin anyway, she's so – she wears it so obviously on her sleeve. It is almost childlike in that way. Like clearly she's intelligent, but she is a bit bombastic and bro-y. And that – once I decided that that was the lane, that made it easy because the writing is so good anyway that I think she means everything she says. Even when she's being sarcastic with Mark,

it's done from such a sweet place that I do remember shooting these birthing cabin scenes and thinking, you know, when people are in physical pain, they become more childlike. And what does it look like? I think we have so many misconceptions about labor. I myself have never experienced it, but many people I'm close to have. And I actually asked a bunch of my friends before we started shooting that had given birth. I was like, you're not really making that sound, are you?

Like, what are you? Are you being funny? Are you, and they had all given me interesting backstory. So I do think that Devin kind of defaulting to this goofiness a little bit is also a coping mechanism because she's in pain. She wants the coffee because she's in physical discomfort. And I think that she also knows that she can connect with people from a place of vulnerability. Maybe that's come into clearer focus in contrast to her husband, because for Rickon, that is nearly impossible. And that's probably why they work so well. But I think it was just, you know, there's a need.

She needs the coffee. That's the bottom line. And even though, you know, like you said, the container is so dramatic and the context is so dramatic. And I knew there was going to be this gorgeous score underneath. It's like, well, she still just wants her coffee. So, yeah. I just, there's so much important information in this scene and and it's killing like six birds with one stone because you're playing it so well

and we're learning so much about devon here yeah how she behaves in a situation like this, how she sort of thinks about money and class. It's also pushing class into the show a bit, which is super interesting. But it's all within this. It's only being pushed by character here, but there's all this interesting information. It's just there's a heavy load on you as an actor, and you're just getting it all out there in such a fascinating way that you don't even notice all the other stuff that's kind of being loaded into the show right here it's just like you the way you ask her if she's rich you just learn so much about devon

in that moment yes there was um there is a toddler in my life um and I had been one of my best friends. It's her son. And I had been spending a lot of time with him leading up to shooting, and that was him. Because I was thinking about how adults, however intelligent, can resort to childlike behavior when vulnerable. And I was like, I don't, I think Devin's too tired to try to frame that as like a diplomatic question. She's just like, I got a question. And that's what kids are. And I love, I think about kids so often with any character that's at all vulnerable or messy or not intentionally put together. It's like, that's just what it is. It's just a little kid inside of us that's wanting to get information. And I do think Devin, though

deeply smart, is kind of kid-like in that way. That's so interesting. Yeah. It's great. Yeah. It's a great moment. I love it. Thanks. So Devin eventually heads back to the cabin. Rickon's asleep. So Mark and Devin have this moment where they're just chit-chatting. She's telling him that Alexa might give him another shot. And then Devin starts getting another contraction and they, you know, face each other and kind of make a joke about Rickon's earlier theory that we need to tell secrets when the baby's born or whatever. And so ends up with Mark almost telling Devin about Petey. Gets real close.

Then that contraction hits. Then a contraction hits. Yeah. Saved by the bell. Adam actually was very helpful because I was asking you about your wife Naomi's experience with labor and you were very kind telling me that I wasn't insane making those weird noises. Yeah. After we'd cut, I was like, is that, is it weird? Am I making weird noises?

Is it too cartoony? And you were very helpful. No, it feels so real. It's really. Yeah. I mean, it's intense from every birth that I've been around. It's pretty intense. Every birth that I've been around. The two of my children. And also because it was fun to feel that type of suspense with Devin because until that point, we're sort of only existing outside of the danger of women.

And we're really only in sort of familial environments, even if you are in pain. And so it was fun to get to dip my toe in that for a second. Yeah, and it shows that Mark, that Audi Mark doesn't have anyone else and he wants to talk about this with someone because there are concerns. This whole thing happened with Petey. He watched someone drop dead in front of him and was keeping him in his, like he hasn't told anyone about this.

So he's, you know, this is his person to talk to about. And this is episode five and mark is starting you know he's starting to believe that that what pd was talking about is real yeah um and you know it's it's taken a little while but we see that settling in and the reality of you know of the fact that there's something going on that he is feeling this need to have to figure out. And I remember really loving that about the show and the pace of the show because when some stuff like this is happening, you know, you could see that in a different situation on a different show. You know, episode one, he believes Petey immediately and goes on this quest to fight for justice. It seems crazy.

So it's going to take a while to really form it and believe it. You need to gather evidence and really internalize it. I feel like the scene after this where Devin is giving birth off camera and you're sitting on the dock is sort of it sort of reinforces that because the whole scene we're just hearing the childbirth and i'm curious how that was for you because you had to go to a an adr stage oh right and do the do the sounds it well it was great because it was the first time i'd seen what you tried of adam when he's on the is he on a pier? He's sitting on this little dock that was outside of the cabin.

And I remember I got distracted because it was such a beautiful moment. And I feel like it was such a bittersweet tableau of Audie Mark's loneliness. Like this major life event that represents rebirth and new life is happening behind him. And yet he's here in this moment of solitude that is very clearly pained. And I remember thinking how poetic and beautiful that was that, you know, you've got this like huge life event happening for Devin. But Mark is so mired in all of the bullshit of Lumen that we just sort of see him stuck there. But yes, doing the pregnancy sounds, the labor sounds, rather,

in the ADR studio was a fun one. Was Michael Chernus with you? No, I think we did it separately, which was tough because I don't like really to do anything without Michael Chernus. Taxes, exercise classes, I need him there. So it was- That's how we all feel.

Right? All right, let's take a quick MDR, and Helly's returned, and Miss Casey is there sort of observing her and offering hugs upon request. It's so weird. She haunts me in my dreams, Miss Casey. Yeah, Deach and Lockman, the best. Everything about her. She's so good.

Yeah. And she's kind of like, you feel like she's sort of like, she knows she has to be there, but inside you feel something's going on with her. She's not maybe quite sure why she's there, but she's doing her job. And Irving is getting sleepy again.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he has another dream. I love how Aoife McArdle did this. This black goo is coming through the light panels in the ceiling and starts to drip out. And I know she was very adamant about making sure we had real goo. So there's like this weird black, goopy, oily goo. I don't even know what it was.

But the way she integrated that with the visual effects, it's pretty weird and kind of beautiful too. It's really cool. And I remember I had to – for me leaning back into his dream, I had to put in this black contact lens. And then they dribbled goo coming out to put in this black contact lens. Yeah. And then they dribbled goo coming out of my eye as well. Yes. Yeah. How did that feel?

It was super comfy. I loved it. How did they trigger that? Like how did – from whence was the goo coming? We injected the goo into my tear ducts and then I was able to – I don't remember. I don't remember how we did that. I think there was like a black contact lens of some type. Yes, it was a –

And then we just dripped some of the black goo, and it might have been enhanced a little bit with the computer. Yeah. goes to make a photocopy of the map to O&D, and out of the copier come the scary painting, this sort of like melee, this coup happening. And it's between O&D and MDR. Yeah. And we know it's O&D and MDR because of the color of their tag thing? Yeah, O&D has the green tags tags and MDR has the blue tags.

And, uh, and it's a great, great little weird, you know, kind of mural like painting of this office battle happening with people's throats getting slit. Yeah.

It's carnage. And John DeTuro's reaction is so amazing. Yeah. His any seeing this, he's just so – this, you know, in terms of like sensory, the effect of seeing something like this for him who has seen very little in his life, violent, you know, for a desensitized culture that we're in where we see so much every moment on our phones and screens, for Irving seeing this painting, he's never seen any of that. Yeah. And John just fills it with so much dread and fear. It makes it so important. Totally.

And for Irv, his whole world, like how he kind of – his like window into the world is completely through art and paintings. And so this is yeah horrifying sensitivity to these images and then all of a sudden milchick is there and uh let's play that little moment where milchick finds him looking at the painting I'm sorry, Irving. We must have sent this print job here by mistake. You weren't supposed to see this. What are these? Nothing.

A joke from Miss Cobell. It's the O&D crew, isn't it? The one that Dylan talks about, huh? Did that actually happen, Mr. Milchick? Of course not. Nothing like that could happen here. Wow. Oh, God.

Just awful. The mind control going on, the levels with Milchik, fake lying. And yeah, throughout the episode, Milchik and Cobell are sort of going rogue and, you know, influencing all the employees sort of like, you know, like they're kind of pawns in their chess game. And we really get to see how that manipulation happens. And there's Milchik goes back and sees Cobell. And, yeah, it turns out it was an unauthorized 266. Oh, I hate that. That's a maneuver.

I try and pull 266es on Jen all the time. And I've got the scars to prove it. Okay. And, and you also get the sense that, you know, cobell trusts Milchik with her secrets of what she's up to. And you get the feeling that what she's doing,

uh, with Mark and sending him to miss Casey, we don't quite understand, but she's doing something that's unauthorized. Right. Yeah, they're kind of, you get the sense that they're going rogue down there. Yeah, yeah.

The relationship between Milchick and Cobell is one of my favorite relationships on the show. Watching that power dynamic and how it shifts and evolves is pretty fascinating. And man, oh man, Tramiel, every time he opens his mouth in that character, I get a little scared. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think one of the interesting things in the show is that you don't quite know where people are coming from in management. You don't know if Milchik is up to something really bad. I mean, it seems like he's up to something bad, but then there are moments where he's kind of empathetic.

And with Cobell, I mean, she's just such a cipher. And, you know, what Patricia is able to mask going on, it's fascinating to watch her, but you're always wondering, what is she up to? And Ben, would you say that the idea of alienating MDR from optics and design through the art or trying to get them to believe this fable about this big coup that occurred, is it the ultimate sort of idea behind it, the ultimate reason? Is it to prevent like a form of unionizing or them getting too chummy? Yeah, that's what it seems at this point is that there's an interest in keeping them separate. And it's dividing, dividing and conquering. Yeah, getting people divided on things that don't actually have anything to do with their lives is the surest way to be able to control them, right? Isn't that sort of – Yeah.

Well, and also in that there's a scene later where Cobell says, you know, to tame a prisoner, the surest way to tame a prisoner is to let him believe he's free. Right. So they're putting these ideas in their heads and letting the ideas fester and grow. So at the same time in the office, Helly's really not loving having Miss Casey observe her. And Mark sort of sees that and accidentally spills coffee to get Miss Casey out of the way. And you and Helly take a little walk into the hallways. Yeah. It seems part of this sort of shift that's happened for Mark since the suicide attempt is that he's started feeling badly and is worried about Hellie. Yeah. Yeah.

I think he's worried about Hellie and he's also – I think trying – I think he's kind of, in my perception, he's sort of wanting to connect with her. Yes. Maybe having some sort of feelings of, you know, I don't know if they're romantic feelings, but they're, he just wants to, you know, reach out to her. Yes. And Mark and Helly walk through the hallways and find this sort of abandoned office bay where the desks are wrapped up in plastic. And Mark tells her that he's been recreating the map that he shredded last time. Which is a huge step for Mark to be creating this piece of contraband like this. Yeah.

For the sake of connecting with, like, I feel like he and Helly, Burton, Irving, this episode, all these relationships are starting to sort of dislodge and take on

a life of their own a little bit. Yeah. And I think also the parallel of Innie Mark starting to question what's going on

a little bit, too, that making the map and Outie Mark starting to, you know, there's parallel tracks happening for Innie and Outie Mark at the same time. Yeah, yeah, totally. And, you know, you give Helly the map an Audi mark starting to – you know, there's parallel tracks happening for Indian Audi mark at the same time.

Yeah, yeah, totally. And, you know, you give Heli the map and, you know, you say this is the map that, you know, PD was drawing. I'm recreating it. And she says, I'm not your new PD. Right. Ooh. Right. Not going to be that easy with her. And you start going into the far recesses of the sort of the outer hallways, which are dark and kind of...

Yeah, so the lighting, it seems like the lights are kind of going on as they travel through the hallways to save power, I would assume. Is that what that's about? Yeah, yeah. It's sort of like the areas that are not used as much to save you know save energy and money they they keep the lights off and they're triggered by motion sensors i actually saw that in um this great reuben oslin movie the square oh my favorite movie oh yeah yeah so great so great really good and that that was i saw it i that. I was like, oh, that's really cool and creepy. He's a great filmmaker. He's incredible.

And so I think that's where that idea came from. or in the frame are really fun because, you know, these perspectives and these kind of, you know, rectangles and, you know, different shapes that you can create with the lighting. It makes it even more disorienting and confusing too. Yeah. You really don't know where the hell you are. Yeah. And shooting it was really strange because those lights weren't motion sensor lights, obviously. There were technicians, our incredible lighting crew controlling those lights as we walked.

Yeah, exactly. So our gaffer, Kurt Lennig, would be literally triggering each light as you walked down the hallway. So we'd have to get that timing right on each take. Wow. And then you, mark and helly you know here a little baby goat bleat that's right is that the right a goat bleat i think goats bleat and it's very jarring and here we are with uh one of the would you say the hallmark elements of of severance is the baby goats people People have really, really, uh,

gotten people up to the goats. You really do. It's pretty funny. Cause I mean, yeah, the, the goats, uh,

you know, again, Dan Erickson coming up with the idea of goats in office hallways. Um, what are the goats about? Cause, cause you guys find this room and there's a gentleman with a sort of a leather apron and a bunch of baby goats he's nursing. Yep.

Who gets very, very concerned that you're trying to take the goats away. It's really weird. And one of the things that we shot and it was really fun and interesting being with baby goats all day. But then when the show comes out a year later and this element of the show sort of explodes, it was not something I anticipated at all. I don't know about you. No, no, no, definitely. I didn't think about it either. And also, I think it was also just the mystery of the goats.

What are the goats about? Yeah. And you don't really get a sense of that from this scene at all. Should we hear a clip of that particular scene? Oh, yeah. They're not ready. You can't take them yet. They're not ready.

It isn't time. Get the hell out of here. Go! Those goats had to go to the same ADR studio. Yeah, they were there with you, correct? Yeah, they asked me to double team it. Was one of them running the ADR session, like with headphones and everything? Yeah, that was Jane.

She's great. She's terrific. She's like a grown-up now. It's crazy. Absolutely. So there's like a really big Severance Reddit site. I think it's called r slash Severance Apple TV Plus. And there's a lot of theories apparently there about what the goats are about.

But friends did send me links to this Reddit. And they're really cool and smart. A lot of them are like, oh, that would be an interesting direction. But they loved the goats. One of them is, here's a quote, I really think they're testing cloning technologies. That's interesting because didn't they clone a sheep? Yeah.

Yeah, in like the 90s. What was her name? Sally? No, it was- Deborah. No, Betsy? Betsy, Betsy, Dolly, Dolly, Dolly, Dolly. But whatever happened with that? Because there was a whole thing, they cloned a sheep, but then at this point they should be cloning people. They are. don't know about it oh my god yeah you guys you should read my subreddit someone should follow up on that cloning thing is all i'm saying you know it's been a while yeah i want to hear some new cloning techniques because that would that would work out well for all of us like you could clone yourself to live through daylight savings time. What's another theory?

The goats have been inserted with the outies of other severed employees slash people. Their minds are trapped in the goats. Oh, okay. That's spicy. Wow. That's spicy. That's cool. So like the goats have the, yeah, the consciousness of severed people in them. Adam, I'm curious curious just actor to actor

um what it was like to work with the goats i mean listen i've worked with a lot of really talented creatures over the years human and not human thank you um uh yeah i actually took video that day and i kind of pan over to our boom operator, Kira Smith, and then go down and you see that baby goats are eating her shoelaces. They will just walk up to you and start eating your pants. And they are so cute and gentle. Oh. And they're lovely. Also, I think they were actually, they're not all baby goats.

They were pygmy goats. Yeah, I think you're right. So some of them were baby pygmy goats. So they never get that big. Would you say that's in the top three questions you get asked is about the goats? Yeah, I get a lot of goat stuff just because because of the show but also generally so while helly and mark are wandering the halls irving and dylan go to find bert yeah dylan is sort of suspicious right and he follows right he follows irving right and i love this scene with the three of them, with Dylan, Irv, and Bert, and seeing these three incredible actors kind of jump into this. And Christopher Walken saying that he was practicing a joke, that's why he was there. And Irving kind of getting stuck on it and saying, if you were coming to see me, why were you in the conference room? And you just sort of get this, again, another example of this being such a small world for these people. And, you know, these small moves within

an office environment take on such meaning. Yeah. Do you want to hear that scene? Totally. It's literally silly. Like they say, you all have pouches. Pouches? Like to carry young? Yes. According to some, you each have a larval offspring that will jump out and attack if we get too close. That's fucking psycho. I mean, it's a joke,

of course, but I don't know. The sentiment somehow holds people are weird. Though, I'd be remiss not to say that in this theory, the larva eventually eats and replaces you oh which irving would solve the mystery of your youthful energy oh my god when they flirt i just i just melt it's the best mean, that dialogue is just so unique. It's very Dan.

Yeah. You know, the larva eventually eats and replaces you. It's so awesome. That's his little flirtatious move. That's right. Which solved the mystery of your youthful energy. But it's also Dan. Marvel can eat out of its. To be like sort of spinning these fantastical tales, but then you have a character that's so grounded in realism that they're cutting through.

Because Dylan is like, that's fucking psycho. Totally. It's so great. The King of Fucks. Yeah, that's great. That could be Chris Walken's next film and sequence of King of New York. The King of Fucks. Yeah, that's great. That could be Chris Walken's next film and sequel to The King of New York. The King of Fucks. And it's interesting to get this insight into how Lumen, like top brass, they plant these fantastical myths about, you know, department versus department we were talking about earlier.

It's crazy the things that they're sort of planting in their minds. Yeah, and it really sets Dylan off. And Dylan's dialogue, too. He says, are you sweet on this guy? Yeah. It's like all of a sudden he's in a 1940s movie. It's great. But without the homophobia of a 1940s movie,

which I think is really special in the world of women, is that dylan's just annoying that he has a crush on someone oh yeah he has a problem with that it's just that he's from o and d yeah um that's right does not trust him that's right uh yeah and then they get and so they they go off to o and d right yeah burt sort of invites them along right right but they tie Bert up right they tie his hands Dylan takes his belt uh which becomes a theme uh in the show somehow and then on their walk over to O and D they continue flirting and seeing Dylan as like the third wheel is so funny well they're flirting while Bert

has his hands tied behind his back and Dylan is behind them like a guard. And then he like unties them and he's like, hey, why don't you come in for a second? Yeah. I'll show you something. Like Bert just doesn't care,

isn't threatened by these guys. In my dream, like alternative reality, alternate reality rather, Bert has a public access talk show and his Audi has a public access talk show because I could just listen to him philosophize about things all day long with like a giant padded microphone. I'd watch that. Me too. And then while they're hanging out, Bert and Irving, Dylan sort of kind of starts snooping around in the back of the O&D sort of the storage area. Where, by the way, the production design there was sort of, I think, intentional to make those drawers kind of – it feels kind of like a morgue. Yeah.

Interesting. And I love that feeling there. It's kind of like weirdly creepy even though it's just art stuff. Yeah. That's so interesting. So he finds another version of the painting that was so upsetting earlier in the episode except this time the lanyards are switched and MDR are now the aggressors and O&D are the victims. Yeah, and it happens just as Irving is starting to kind of make a move on Bert in terms of reaching out to touch his hand after the last time where he had pulled away. Now Irving is starting to feel more confident and wanting to connect with him.

And just at that moment, Dylan comes out with the painting saying, look, look, they're lying. They're lying. Look at this. But Dylan didn't realize that the tags had been switched. So Irving and Bert look at the painting and realize that somebody had shown them a version of the painting with the tag switched. That was what the printed one was. And they start to get the sense that someone's trying to manipulate them. Yeah. And it's interesting to see sort of the ripple effects of Helly arriving down here are just sort of reaching out and everyone is sort of shifting their mind a little bit about their circumstances down here and burt takes this opportunity to open the door to that back room that yeah irving had sort of

peeked into last time and uh introduces them to the ond team and says you know they're friends yeah um and we see felicia in there too whom we uh love felicia we've met uh earlier claudia robinson who's great truly all right so that's episode five jen how are you feeling about season dos or two i always forget you're bilingual um it's i feel great i'm so excited i think the fact that both Adam and I have aged so aggressively between seasons really lends a new level of vulnerability to both of the characters. But beyond that. I hope people recognize you. I hope they do, too. I think.

And you know what? If they don't, it's OK. I don't need it. I don't need it. But you didn't get a facelift like I did before we started which is and you always said only do it in spain and now i understand why it's seamless and way cheaper you guys both look marvelous you look marvelous you do too ben no you all look marvelous i i think season two is marvelous and I'm so excited for people to see it. We've got to get Billy Crystal on the podcast. Definitely.

We have to get Billy Crystal. On the show. We should get Conan O'Brien because I was just doing Conan's podcast the other day and he's a really big fan of the show. And I think we should someday try to get Al Pacino on the show. 100. Because he is the man. He is my acting idol. He's the world's acting idol. I just wanted to say

to those listening because he won't say it himself, but Ben Stiller has, I'm going to say, an airtight impersonation of Pacino. Truly. It rattles the lungs.

Which I didn't know about until today. No, it's me doing an impression of Bill Hader's impression of Pacino. Well, just as good. Bill Hader is the, let's have Bill Hader's impression of Al Pacino well just as good Bill Hader is the

let's have Bill Hader on the show I don't even know Bill's a friend but I don't even know he's seen the show I think he likes the show he's just so

entertaining he would impersonate every character to a frightening degree it would be great it's crazy how good Bill Hader's impressions are

and he does like Alan Alda and people that don't usually get impersonated. And MASH. He does all the characters of MASH. But I do have it on inside information from having had an interaction with Mr. Pacino, and I know you did too, that he is a fan of the show, which just really makes me want to now just retire. It's so cool.

That's really cool. I cried a little bit after I met him and he told us that. Have you ever talked to him about Al Pacino from Tropic Thunder? I have not from Tropic Thunder. Yeah, the rapper. I know. It was an interaction at a dinner, and I just try to pretend like, hey, it's cool talking to these people. But, you know, these are people that are so, like, the work is so just the basis for why we do what we do, right? Al Pacino, man. Yeah. I think when people at such an insane level of success, such as yourselves, are able to be honest about those moments that feel cool.

And I think that we should all maintain that for all of our lives. I think it's very special when you're like, oh, you've inspired so many people. But then when you talk about someone who's inspired you, I think it's cool. Yeah. It goes back to what you were saying, Jen, about acting and when you think about your characters as kids. Yeah. Like, aren't we – like, isn't that what the basic – like, we're all – we're all kids inside. Yeah, we're all fans.

Yeah, of something. And you do need to be in touch with that as an actor. But just as a person, like, that's kind of like the basis of your feelings. And so, yeah. Kate Blanchett put two fingers on my shoulder simply to steady herself at an event. It had nothing to do with me. And it was like a hot knife through butter.

It changed my molecular structure. Yeah, because she trusted you enough to lean on you. She saw you as a solid person, a balanced, solid person. She said, look at those shoulders. I can lean here. That's right. Yeah. For me, it's like that is the excitement of doing what we do, like to be able to interact with people who have inspired you so much or work you still go to.

You still watch. And still, you know, every day you can go back and look at this stuff. And it's what keeps me wanting to do what we do. I feel that way about this podcast. There. How about that? Thank you, Jen. How about that, guys?

That's a good way to end it. And thank you for being on the podcast. My pleasure. It was so good to be with you. That is it for Episode 5. Follow, rate, and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or anywhere else you love listening to our gorgeous voices. The Severance Podcast

with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions, and Great Scott Productions. If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or your other podcast platform

of choice. Our executive producers are Barry Finkel, Henry Malofsky, Jenna Weiss-Berman, and Leah Reese-Dennis. The show is produced by Zandra Ellen and Naomi Scott. This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Basil. We have additional engineering from Javi Crucis and Davey Sumner. Show clips are courtesy of Fifth Season. Music by Theodore Shapiro. Special thanks to the team at Odyssey. Maura Curran, Eric Donnelly, Michael LeVay, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Shuff. And the team at Red Hour.

John Lesher, Carolina Pesikov, Jean-Pablo Antonetti, Martin Valderudin, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker, and Oliver Ager. And at Great Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin, and Christy Smith at Rise Management. We also had additional production help from Gabrielle Lewis, Ben Goldberg, Stephen Key, Kristen Torres, Emanuel Hapsis, Marie-Alexa Kavanaugh, and Melissa Slaughter. I'm Adam Scott. I'm Ben Stiller. And we will see you next time. Hey, Adam. Yeah? Is your experience at work a bit dysfunctional lately? I don't know. I think it's... Okay, I'll take that as a yes.

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