The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller & Adam Scott - S2E7: Chikhai Bardo (with Dichen Lachman and Jessica Lee Gagné)

Episode Date: February 28, 2025

This week, it’s finally time to take the elevator down to the testing floor. To break down all the revelations in Season 2 Episode 7, Ben and Adam are joined by Dichen Lachman, who plays Gemma / Ms. Casey. She shares what it was like filming in a brand new location with a new cast of characters, how she and Adam built out the relationship between Gemma and Mark, and the origin story of Ms. Casey’s iconic wig. Then, Ben sits down with Jessica Lee Gagné, Severance’s main cinematographer and director of the episode, to talk about why she chose this episode as her directorial debut. Plus: why you should never offer up your own house as a filming location. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, Adam. Yeah? Is your experience at work a bit dysfunctional lately? I don't know. I think it's... it's... Okay, I'll take that as a yes. Your team could undergo a highly controversial surgical procedure that would mercifully sever any and all memories of that work experience from your home lives.

Or you could try Confluence by Atlassian. Oh my god. Well, if it's the choice between those two things, I think I would 100% choose Confluence by Atlassian. Oh my god, well if it's the choice between those two things, I think I would 100% choose Confluence by Atlassian. Confluence is the connected workspace where teams can collaborate and create like never before. Where teams have easy access to the relevant pages and resources their projects call for while discovering important contexts they didn't even know they needed. A space where AI streamlines the things that normally eat up their time, letting teams generate, organize, and deliver work faster. In fact, with Confluence, teams can see a 5.2% average boost

in productivity in one year. So that would equal out, like if we're playing with, like, let's just say 100%, 5.2 of those percentage points. Yeah. That's the improvement. I mean, I'm not great at math, but that sounds very close. Well, I'm doing the math in my head right now as we speak, and I think that's great.

So why not keep your team unsevered? In Confluence, the connected workspace where teams can do it all. Set knowledge free with Confluence. Learn more at Atlassian.com slash Confluence. That's A-T-L-A-S-S-I-A-N dot com slash C-O-N-f-l-u-e-n-c-e. Just, I have one question. This is like a, this is probably really silly.

Do you do any other accents? Cause your American accent is so good. Like what else do you do accent wise? It's really good. I've been trying to learn an Irish one actually because my daughter and I have been watching Bad Sisters and we absolutely love it. And Matilda's like been walking around the house

saying Blornard, you know, like all the different names on the show. And like, sometimes like we'll just start trying to talk to each other in Irish accent, but I have to like start protecting it. This is your, this is your Bad Sisters season three audition. Stop being such a bad sister. Sister. Stop being such a bad sister. Sister.

Stop being such a bad sister, you fuck. Oh, I can't swear on this, can I? I won't, I know I can't swear. You feckin' feckin'? Yeah, you can swear, you can swear. Stop being such a bad sister. That sounded really good. Lonard, what the fuck are you doing?

Hey, I'm Ben Stiller. I'm Adam Scott. And this is the Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every episode of Severance. Today, we're talking about the seventh episode of season two, Chakai Bardo, written by Dan Erickson and Mark Friedman and directed by Jessica Lee Gagne.

Yeah, this is a really big one, and we have a very special guest to help us talk about it. We are joined by the star of the episode, the transfixing, the incredibly talented, the mesmerizing, the self-effacing. I could go on. Deachin Lockman, who plays Gemma slash Miss Casey. Yes.

Hi guys, keep going. And later on, I'll be talking with Jessica Lee Gagnet about directing the episode. She's so talented. She's just also our main cinematographer. Can't wait to talk to her about this. Yeah. And of course, we'll have our friend, Zach Cherry, the favorite segment of the episode

for us all, where he predicts what's going to happen in next week's episode. Yeah, you're welcome, Zach. Okay, here is your spoiler warning. We are talking about everything from episode seven of season two, so go watch it before you listen to this. Can't emphasize that enough. That's right. You know, it came to our attention recently that it might be a little bit different that we're doing a podcast about a show that we make, and the fact that since we know everything in the show, that it's hard to not give away spoilers.

Yeah. So, you know, we give the spoiler warning to people, we give it to ourselves, but, you know, of course, when we're talking about the episodes, I'm always thinking about what we don't want to give away. Right. For me, of course, that's the fun of it. Yeah. That's the fun of it.

But then it does make you look inward a little bit. Sure. And question, like, well, the way I even said that thing that maybe wasn't explaining what happens in the episode, did I in the way I said it? Because we knew people would pay attention to the episodes, but this level of intense analysis. It's far more intense than season one, I would say.

Yeah, and I think there are more people watching the show now and I realize that people are listening to every little nuance and watching every little speck of detail in the show. Yeah, maybe even something that we may have said offhandedly gets analyzed as if it were a window into another hint. A secret message or something. But that's kind of the fun of all of this, I guess.

And also, I think for people who are paying attention, sometimes these clues that they're seeing are definitely real things. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of, I think, institutional memory for people on mystery box-type shows where they're really concerned about where it's going. But for me, a lot of what I love about this show is that aspect, but it's also other things

about the show too. So it's fun to watch all of that. It's great. And just so everyone knows, we go through this show with a fine tooth comb to make sure that we're not leaking anything out that we don't want. Nothing, nothing at all. Yeah. Deachin, thank you for joining us.

You're in London, aren't you? Yes, I am. I'm sorry if I interrupted you earlier. I wasn't sure if that was the right time to step in. No, no, no, not at all. We'll just talk and talk and talk. You have to interrupt us if you actually wanna get a word in. Deachin, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, thank you for having me. Dejan, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I've been enjoying listening, so. A lot of people know you for work you've done before, Severance. But for me, as a fan, it's always fun when I see a character from a show that I know the character from the show

and I'm not that familiar with the actor. And then I hear them talk for real and they've got an accent from another country. And I'm like, oh my God, that's so cool. She's not American. It's such a ridiculous, simple thing. But you are so good with your American accent. Tell people where you're from and a little bit

about where you come from. Yeah, well, I was born in Kathmandu and moved to Australia when I was about seven years old and spent a lot of my teenage years there. And then when I was 23 years old, I moved to Los Angeles. And now I'm in London, just working my way around the world. Kathmandu to LA is a long way. It is is even Adelaide to LA is a long way. Were your parents living in Catmandu? Yes, they were. They were living in Catmandu. I was born

there in, you know, a very, Catmandu in the 80s was not very developed. And a lot of people lived like they lived hundreds of years ago. You know, we didn't have electricity half the week. I think the only movies we had access to were Superman, Supergirl, Police Academy, and Hindi movies. Well, that's all you need. So it was like another world. Right. Wow. Wow. And what made you want to come to America and be an actor? I was working in Australia.

And at the time, there weren't a lot of opportunities there. And I knew that if I wanted to keep working, I'd have to sort of expand my horizons. And so I came to Los Angeles, just like many young, aspiring actors do. And it was really exciting. and I knew so little. I feel like if I knew how hard it was gonna be, maybe I never would have done it.

But that naivety was very helpful. Totally, that's how I feel too. Like if I knew at 18, how difficult or 20 or whatever, how difficult it would be or how long it would take, I don't know if I would do it. Yeah, it's interesting because I grew up in the business. So I saw it, but I still didn't realize, you know, all the things that you have to deal with. As you know, Dietsch, there's a lot of going out there, putting yourself out there,

and not getting the job, and you have to kind of just keep going and believe in yourself. And I imagine for you coming all that way, that was probably something you had to deal with. Yeah, I think, I mean, we all go through it. It's interesting, Ben, to hear you say that because someone who doesn't know you or hasn't had the chance to speak to you about it might assume that it was an easier path or something, but it never is. I think everyone's journey is

up and down and that's what makes it so beautiful because we get to have that contrast of the rejection and the highs of the winds and everybody started somewhere. Yeah. You're so great in the show, DiCin. Unbelievable. Yeah. And obviously, this episode is just an incredibly special episode. And I remember we talked to Britt about her audition

for the show. And similar to you, she sent in a self-tape, which is, you know, at home, you just make a tape yourself of the scene, and you send it in. And you sent in just a really incredibly well-done self-tape of Miss Casey. Can you tell me a little bit about how you put that together? I remember watching it and it was stunning.

You just seemed so otherworldly and it was so well-produced and the lighting was amazing. And how did you do that? Thank you for noticing. Yeah, I mean, to go back to the whole journey of being an actor. Many years ago, I realized that so much of this business is out of our control. It's not really a competition because it's just like,

there's just a person who's right for the part and 99% of the time it's not going to be you. And it's such a frustrating thing that I mean we all know what that feels like to have a million nos and I think I got to a point where I wasn't even feeling like I was being able to be creative. I guess I just decided like okay okay, I can't control whether I get the job or not. But when things started moving to taping, which I would often push for, I was like, this is my opportunity to be creative. This is my opportunity to, you know, I learned how to use a camera. I learned like little bit about lighting. I got the best microphones I could. I just decided that any tape I sent out, whether I got it or not, I wanted it to be a really great

quality product and represent my commitment to my work and my creativity, especially when you get something so wild like this. When I got those sides, I had absolutely no context. So it was like, what is this woman saying? And why is she saying it like this? But it was an opportunity to be creative and get into my imagination. And Max, my husband and I, we sort of do it for each other now. And I'll go handheld. I'll learn the lines for him. And we'll get the bounce boards out.

And it's like we're working. It feels like we're working, which is, you know, sometimes you don't get to do that. And did you know right away from the very start that Ms. Casey was also Gemma or was that, did that come later? No, Ben and I got on a Skype call. Ben, do you remember you told me on the Skype call that Jemma was Miss Casey? Yeah, I had no idea because I hadn't read anything. Yeah, I mean, it was obviously very early on. I mean, that concept at that time, we knew where it was going, but it was still a concept.

We hadn't written all the scenes. This was like very early on. But watching you read Miss Casey, I was just like, I felt like there was, I can't know, concept, we hadn't written all the scenes. This was like very early on. But watching you read Miss Casey, I was just like, I felt like there was, I can't even, honestly, and this is no insult to the other people who read for that role, but it's hard for me to remember other people who read for the role. Because when I saw what you were doing,

it's like, okay, that's the person for this role. And I want to ask you about this episode because when you read it, you know, this is the episode where we learned so much. What was your feeling when you first read it? I was like, wow, this is a lot of pressure. I'm going to, I can't let anybody down. Well, because it's, you know, it's like-

Sure, right. I know, that's an honest answer. Yeah, it's daunting. I mean, the whole thing is you. But also the buildup to Gemma, you know, and the audience getting to know her and everyone seeing what, you know, Mark had that he lost. So when I read it, I was like extremely excited to be involved

much more with you guys and to be able to collaborate with you all more. But I was also like, don't mess this up. Well, I was excited because I knew from working with you in season one, first of all, even like finding the look for Miss Casey, I remember how proactive you were. And we were talking about this with Gwendolyn Christie, how an actor can really just take ownership of a role

and come in with ideas. And you came in with so many ideas. I remember you had the Ms. Casey wig. I did, yeah. Well, Ben was like the hair, like he was concerned about my hair. Surprise, surprise. Obsessed with the hair.

Me too, yeah. But I totally get it, because it's such a specific world and it really does matter on a show like this. Most shows, it probably doesn't matter that much, but on this show, it is super important. So I bought all these different wigs and then I was on set for something else

and I borrowed some of their wigs and I took photos and I made a whole PDF just so like Ben could be like, is it brown hair, is it red hair, is it black hair, is it like, what is it? And then you responded to the- Yeah, it was so great. Yeah, you responded to that one.

No, she came in and she put the wig on and like modeled the wig and said, what do you think of this? And like, it was like, oh man, this person is just so into it. And like, I just really appreciated that. And then I remember we were shooting your scene in the hallway, I think it was 108,

where Milchik sends you back down the hallway. And that's the sort of this first hint that we really are feeling that there's something inside Miss Casey, this sort of sadness. Yeah, there's something so, because you could see how a character like that could be like one note or an inch deep in one way or the other,

but your Miss Casey is so deeply felt and such a whole person that you get the feeling that there is someone in there just aching to get out. Like always trying to find her spot. And it's so sad, but also just so interesting. How did you approach her in particular? Cause there's something childlike about her, but it's more than that too. Yeah.

I feel like she was curious, you know, she was, and, and also now in seven, you see that in those other rooms, she's isolated basically with Dr. Mauer. And I think it worked out in a way because that curiosity being with the group and how she's so enjoyed being in that space with them. And I felt like her face sort of sit differently to all the other characters. It was this longing for connection. And I think Ben, I don't know if you remember, but we were on a call, I think it was about my hair, but we also ended up talking about the character. I don't think so. It must have been something else. But go ahead.

I was like, she's like a doe, you know? So I sort of worked with that animal and Ben really, you helped me build this character and Dan, you know, like you guys led me through that. Right. All right, it's time for us to take a quick break and we'll be right back. Are you someone who gets freaked out by the liminal office space in Severance? The seemingly infinite hallways, the nearly identical rooms, the sea of fluorescent lights? Well did you know the design was inspired by a terrifying creepypasta known as the backrooms?

In episode 105 of the Heart Starts Pounding podcast, you can join me, Kaelyn Moore, as I guide you through the legend of the backrooms. I also share times real people have gotten trapped in liminal spaces, like the man who entered a mall stairwell and couldn't find his way out for five days. These are the types of horrors, hauntings, and mysteries I get into every week. So if you're someone who loves to follow your dark curiosity, come join our community

and listen to Heart Starts Pounding on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. If Lumen was using our partner, ZipRecruiter, to help hire for various roles, they would love how ZipRecruiter to help hire for various roles, they would love how ZipRecruiter allows them to search resumes quickly via keywords like Goat Wrangler, talk to qualified refiners the very next day, and enhance their job posts with selling points like Amazing Work-Life Balance. If you're a business owner who needs to hire, ZipRecruiter has all these tools and features and more. And they're designed to make hiring

faster and easier. See for yourself when you try ZipRecruiter for free at ziprecruiter.com slash severance. ZipRecruiter excels at speed. Its smart technology starts showing your job to qualified candidates immediately. And if you've got your eye on an exceptional candidate, you can use ZipRecruiter's invite to apply message to personally reach out to them. Plus, ZipRecruiter is the hiring site employers prefer the most based on G2. See how much faster and easier hiring can be with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter

get a quality candidate within the first day. It's better than a waffle party. Just go to ziprecruiter.com slash severance right now to try it for free. That's ziprecruiter.com slash S-E-V-E-R-A-N-C-E. You talked about going from room to room in the episode and we see Gemma down there and we see that she's being basically ushered into these different rooms where she's severed into a different persona and something is done to her by Dr. Mauer in some different outfit and character or disguise by the great Robbie Benson, who's one of my favorite actors.

And why don't we listen to a clip from when you're in the Christmas room with Dr. Mower. How much longer do I have to do this? I told you, you're done. But Christmas has a funny way of coming back around each year. It's always Christmas. Oh, man. A holiday classic.

That scene. It's so off for her. It's just her entire life is Christmas with this dude. What a bummer. I really have to say the tension between the two of you, you know, he obviously has an attachment to his subject and the way that you play those scenes together, it was just a very potent dynamic

that was under the surface. And you had to go through so much in that episode because, you know, we learned that you're down there and you've been down there for a number of years. And obviously you're trying to get out too, but how was it playing those scenes? I mean, it was incredible. And Jess was really, she really wanted to explore her being kind of like a defiant teenager, you know, and I mean, she's such, she's so incredibly talented.

Yeah. Jessica is an amazing artist as a cinematographer and now as a director. And she was also shooting the episode. She was the DP on that episode. Was that an interesting process for you, working with her in both capacities? Yeah, it was great.

I loved how loose she was with like, oh, let's just do it this way. And she really knows how to just like push forward. And I think maybe it's from her experience working like a lot in the independent film space. Sometimes you can work with people who are very regimented within like a studio structure or whatever, but I never felt like that on this show ever.

Like there's just seemed to be so much time to explore and experiment. And Ben, obviously she's worked with you's worked with you a number of times. And I think her directing style, I feel like she's learned a lot from you, because she just really wanted to, like you do, try lots of different things. I'd say it's the other way around, but that's a different.

Oh, yeah. OK. Or the other way around. She taught you. She taught you. The other aspect of the episode, I I'd say it's the other way around, but that's a... Oh yeah, okay, or the other way around. She taught you. She taught you. The other aspect of the episode, I wanna ask both of you guys about this,

is that we get to see the meeting of Mark and Gemma, juxtaposed with the captivity on the testing floor, we're seeing the beginning and development of Mark and Gemma's marriage. And the things that happen in the beginning, the first blush of connecting, which, why don't Yeah. And the things that, you know, happen in the beginning, the first blush of connecting, which, why don't we take a look at that too, the first time you guys meet.

What do you got there? Sorry, what do you got there? Themes of religious conversion in Tolsoy's The Death of Ivan Iliac. Oh my god, spoiler alert, please. What about you? Are you reading? Me? Well, yeah, this is a real treat.

All Quiet on the Western Blunt. Drug Use by Enlisted Soldiers During World War I. No, stop. No, that's what it is. Kid's a genius, you should flunk every other child. I couldn't agree more. Ha ha. Kids are genius. You should flunk every other child.

I couldn't agree more. Ha-ha. I'm sorry, who are you? Jemma. I thought you guys did a really good job of creating a very real relationship. How was it for you guys, and, Adam, I'm curious to be able to start asking you,

how was it for you to create that relationship, and how did you guys go about that with Jessica? Well it was really fun and really informative too because it's such a huge part of Audi Marks life this loss and up to this point it just all been in my imagination just trying to fill that in so getting to actually build it with DeGeneres and Jess was great but what I love about it what I loved about doing it is like other things on the show, like you were saying, we kind of found the tone and the characters together. And part of finding that together is we get, you know,

micro-specific about all of it. And we need to because it's not the kind of writing, it's not like Dan writes in a way where it's like, well, I used to be a teacher and I'm not anymore because of this, this and this. You know, it's not expo heavy dialogue. So we as a team want to build everything as specific and big and complete as possible,

and then kind of decide how much of it we're showing. And so this relationship, it was really important to build exactly what it was. And then in these scenes, we got to see these nice little glimpses. And I think just building such a complete relationship in such a complete world, we could do these little flashes and get what felt like a complete picture. You, DeGeneres, had to go through so much in terms of the miscarriage and incredibly emotional, sensitive stuff. And then also showing the great times in the marriage.

And it was all shot within, I don't know, five days. How do you prepare as an actor to do that? Because you did a great job with it. Oh, gosh. To me, it wasn't so difficult as much as it was exhilarating and fun. Ben, when you came that day or a couple of days, actually, with that little camera, I don't know what it's called.

Yeah. The Bolex, a 16 millimeter Bolex. That was so much fun to just go and get random things. Like Adam, remember we had like little. A picnic. Yeah, we had a, I mean, just between setups, we would like run out with Ben and Ben had the camera and he was like on his knees in the mud and I was like, oh my God, like don't-

Yeah. Well, it was like spring was just starting and it was sunny and flowers were blooming. So we got a bunch of that stuff. It was great. Yeah, Jessica, she sort of flipped the script on me and had me be the little second unit DP, and she'd give me the bolex to shoot you guys,

you know, smelling flowers. It was kind of like Bendo, but with a 16 millimeter camera. And more successful, I think, than Bendo. And a lot of it made it into the cut. I was really, I was like, well. Yeah, and it looks great, too. Bendo did a really good job. I will say, because you won't do, Chin,

that watching you go through everything you had to go through for this episode and just the parts I was in, because they're all the testing for stuff. That's a whole other chapter that is unbelievable that you went through all of that. But the stuff we were doing, I felt like my job in that episode was just to like support you and make sure you were as comfortable as possible

because of all the emotional and physical strain you had to go through to kind of hit these because we're like encapsulating a period of years into one episode of TV So you had to really hit these highs and lows and sometimes within the span of a couple of hours We're doing the miscarriage scene in the shower And then we're downstairs doing something super happy together. And it was a lot and you were just hitting bullseyes and nothing but. Oh, you're so I couldn't have done it without all of that incredible support. But it really

was like it was extremely challenging. But I feel like it was the most fun I had just because like those parts of the episode where it's less of a flashback, more going into the minds of these characters. It was just so much looser, you know, and free. And it was something that was just a little less like oppressive like that, those hallways, which I don't know how you guys make hallways so interesting to look at. It's incredible how beautiful the show is.

Well, the testing floor hallways are oppressive and white, but different. Yeah, that was our big new set for the season really. And Jeremy Hindle and Jessica really got involved in that. And we knew we wanted to do something that wasn't, we didn't want to do a different color. We obviously thought about that, but we were thinking just, what is the world down there?

What's the texture? Is it, at one point we thought that might even be more dilapidated, but then it didn't make sense for really what they were doing down there and then we came up with a scale that was a little bit bigger and different kinds of angles, but really that's all credit to Jessica and to Jeremy. And I remember that set was there for a long time

before we shot it and we were looking forward to it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. All right, we've been asking fans to call in with questions, we've been getting a lot of questions and we got a few questions that we would like your help answering, Dietschin. Okay? Okay.

Here we go. This Hotline segment, by the way, is sponsored by Confluence by Atlassian, the connected workspace where teams can create, organize, and deliver work like never before. Set knowledge free with Confluence. Dietschin, I'm so sorry, Ben just does that from time to time. He breaks into saying things are sponsored by other things. They are sponsoring us though.

They are actually. Okay. But he does do that. I would probably say it if they weren't sponsoring us too. All right, let's get some hotline knowledge. Hey, this is Zoe. So I was a freshman when season one came out and now I'm a senior.

So I've been applying to colleges and it's making me really wonder what kind of person applies to Gans College and here we're marking Gemma Taut. Like it looks pretty desolate, but maybe it's got really low acceptance rate and is super exclusive. Should I apply?

Hmm. Interesting. It's a good question. I would say go for it. It sounds like Zoe was basing her question on previous sort of peaks into Gans College, which was mostly at night when no one was there. I think in this episode, in seven,

we're seeing it as sort of this colorful, bustling school. Yeah, it's not super colorful, it's kind of muted colors. That's what I meant, muted colors. Yeah, I mean, but it's more colors than last time we saw it. Actually, the location is, it's Nassau Community College in Long Island.

And they have this really interesting kind of 70s, concrete, kind of brutalist style architecture. It's pretty cool. It is cool. We spent a lot of time there. Dishon, yeah, you were working on, you're working on a short story analysis in that episode. Oh, when he comes into the office?

Yeah. That's right, Hajime Murat. Yeah, and you have, that's when you come in with the ant farm. Yep. It was a mistake. That was functioning, wasn't it? There were ants in there.

There were ants in there, yeah. There were ants in there. There were ants in there, yeah. There were ants in there. I loved shooting the first scene, our blood donation scene, that was super fun. The Lumen blood donation scene. Your beard was incredible. Yeah, that's Judy. It was painstaking, right?

To put that on because. Beards are really difficult, and Judy Chin is unbelievable. And she was able to create a beard that looks real, highly uncomfortable to have on your face, but looks real. Even like not just on the field, like in person, I actually thought that was your beard. Yeah, Judy is the best. She did such an amazing, amazing job. Did she do your beard today? Because it looks amazing.

Yeah, she did. Thank you. Judy, could you come and just do a beard today? Cause it was amazing. She did. Thank you. Judy, could you come and just do a touch up real quick? She just does it for you every day. Um, okay. We got one more hotline question for you. Hi, my name's Grace. My question is if you're any, had a wellness session with miss Casey, what facts would you want them to know about your Audi?

Thanks. Oh my gosh. If my innie, I had to process this. If my innie was having a session, but isn't my innie, I've got so many innies, right? Yeah, what would you want one of your innies to know about you, Deja? All right.

I guess like what I was allergic to, that would be important. Cause every- That's practical. That's sensible, yeah. It's practical because in England, every time you go to a restaurant, they're like, any allergies. You know, it's really, really funny that waiters love

is if you're at a seafood restaurant and they ask that question, you say, I'm actually allergic to seafood. Or if it's a hamburger restaurant, you say you're allergic to hamburgers. They love it. Oh my gosh. Thank you to Zoe.

Thank you to Grace for calling in. And remember, if you want to call the post box for Lumen Industries Severed Floor, you can call 212-830-3816. Dejan, thanks for joining us. It's good to see you. Dejan, thank you. Thank you for having me.

Congratulations guys on an amazing season two. Dejan, thanks for joining us. It's good to see you. Dejan, thank you. Thank you for having me. Congratulations, guys, on an amazing season two. Congratulations to you. Unbelievable work. All right, let's break down the episode. A lot of questions start getting answered. Should we listen to our first peek into the testing floor? Yes.

You've eaten today, honey? Yes. Done your reading? 50 pages. Calisthenics? Yes. If you were caught in a mudslide, would you be more afraid of suffocating? Or drowning?

Drowning. If you were caught in a mudslide, Adam, what would you be more afraid of? Well, I feel like drowning and suffocating are one in the same. Yeah, I feel like I would be afraid of choking on the mud. Yeah. So more like that would be suffocating.

Yeah, I guess I would first just say neither sounds great. No. But if Sandra Bernhard was asking me that question, I'd be like, I don't know, what do you think? Cause she's so fun. Yeah. And Sandra Bernhard's character is named Cecily. Yes, Cecily.

Let's talk about Sandra Bernhard. She is so, I've been a fan of hers, you know, since she kind of came on the scene. Sandra. And she was amazing in King of Comedy. Oh my God. She had this breakout performance in this Robert De Niro Martin Scorsese movie, which

is one of my favorite. Me too. Of the De Niro Scorsese. Me too. OVRA. Um, and she is just a brilliant standup comedian and I have known her over the years a little bit and it was so fun to see her in this role because she is so funny and she can be so crazy and out there.

Um, it's just very unique energy, but it's always fun to see somebody like that when they, they're putting a lid on it and you know, there's just so much going on behind her eyes. So much going on with Sandra in this role. It's so great. Yeah. So it was really fun to really get to spend some time with her, uh, when she was working on the show and that scene is, yeah, this, you know, setting up this world of the testing floor, this new environment. Obviously, any time we have a new space on the show,

new characters, it's always something we're kind of trepidatiously going into and wanting to figure out how to make it feel right with the tone of the show. And you're worried about timing, I'm sure as well. Like when in the season you're exposing the audience to all of these answers. Yeah, I think overall this episode there was for us a feeling of like, OK, we know that we

have to tell this part of the story and we want to try to do it in a way that feels organic and exciting. But it's always like a little bit, you know, when you step off of the severed floor, it's always a little scary. Yeah, for sure. But I thought Deachin and Sandra were so great together.

And of course, I just have to say Robbie Benson. Who plays Dr. Mauer. Yes, so good, so good at the show. I've been a fan of Robbie's also for a long, long time. He's been an actor and a director and writer, and he was very famous as a young man making movies in the 70s. He made a movie called One-on-One, which is about a young kid who gets recruited to

a college to play basketball and gets cut from the team and has to work his way back onto the team. That's one of my favorite movies of all time that he wrote. Wow. Yeah, and started. He's got one of my favorite movies of all time that he wrote. Wow. Yeah, and starred in. And he's got one of the most incredible voices. Yeah, he does. He's the Beast.

He's the Beast, that's right. Yes, he's the voice of the Beast in Beauty and the Beast. He's a great director. Directed many episodes of Friends. Yes, yeah. And then on top of that, just really the sweetest person I've ever worked with.

Really nice guy. And it's been a long process making this show, the second season. And then on top of that, just really the sweetest person I've ever worked with. Really nice guy. And it's been a long process making this show, the second season. And the first thing we shot with Robbie was in episode five and then episode seven. And it was just over the course of a long time between those two episodes.

Oh, yeah. It was like months and months, and the strike happened. So he was always connected and always there and always engaged. And I love his interrogation scene with Gemma. Yeah. Where he's asking her what she remembers and what she doesn't remember. Yeah.

How many rooms did you visit today? Six. The Billings Room, the Lucknow Room, St. Pierre, Karen's, Zurich, and? The Wellington Room. The Wellington. Excellent. And what happened in the rooms?

You remember nothing? Nothing. His voice is both so soothing and also so scary. Yeah. At the same time. I love seeing his attachment to Gemma grow over these scenes and shift depending on which version of her he's getting. Like in some, he feels like he can

be more open about his feelings for her, like in the Christmas scene, for instance. And in some, he feels he needs to be more of an authority figure. He's yearning for something with her that is deeply unhealthy, but also not easy to put your finger on what it is he wants from her. Yeah, and the looks he has in the episode are just,

I mean, the flight attendant looks is like, I don't know, that just gets me. And then there's the trainer, the physical trainer that we, when we see him in the room with Drummond where they're watching and he's obviously in some sort of like 70s track suit. And he looks like he's just come out of, I don't know, like the movie Munich or something.

Yeah, or roller ball or something. Yeah, and he has these incredible piercing blue eyes. Yes. Let's take a listen to the first time we see him on the testing floor, because we get a little glimpse of him, but we don't get to see his face in episode five, but on the testing floor, the first time we meet him.

Still a total babe. ["The Last Supper"] There she is. Did I please get a break? Just for a little while. But it's been six weeks. I was just here. I know. Nobody likes the dentist. I should have been an accountant like my mom wanted.

Please have a seat. Oh my God. Yeah. Here we see him as a dentist, who obviously is a fan of Gordon Lightfoot. Yeah. Humming that song. Yeah. Record the Edmund Fitzgerald, one of my favorite songs of all time. Is it?

Yes, a big Gordon Lightfoot fan. And then we get to also see in this episode, when we come down through that center post of the MDR cubicle and come out, follow the wires, this crazy shot that Jessica designed and worked on for a long time. And we see that he says the severance barrier is holding. Yeah, that's super interesting. Yeah.

And we see the names of these rooms, like Allentown, Cairns, Drainsville. And these are names we've been seeing over the course of the last season and a half pop up on the computers. Yeah, on the Rolodex for the file names, which I don't know. I wonder if anybody watching the show noticed that. Do you think? I don't know. That's if anybody watching the show noticed that. Do you think?

I don't know. That's a good question. I'm gonna guess that- I don't know. That the people who watch our show did notice that. Maybe. Anyway. So Gemma tries to escape.

Yes. I wanna go home. And when the night is new. Your husband remarried last year. And he has a daughter now. I don't believe you. You've been gone a long time, Gemma. He's moved on.

Maybe you've moved on too. In one of the rooms, what do you think? Do you feel yourself gravitating towards one room or another? Maybe you've felt things behind those doors you never felt with Mark. Maybe I've seen it. The death of Ivan Ilyich. Let me guess, he dies at the end. This is a great sequence that Jessica did in one shot after she knocks Mauer on the head. And then she goes out into the hallway

and this is again, this question of like, what happens when somebody tries to leave or escape? And the ultimate thing that's keeping her there is that she's gonna sever into Miss Casey. Yeah, like she's home free essentially. And then she turns into Miss Casey. And I think Jessica just did such an elegant job with that shot when she comes out of the hallway,

which is basically one shot that kind of takes her through the hallway in the dark. And it was just really beautifully done shot that Jessica did on a dolly. It's not a steady cam shot. And it's a pretty long involved shot that was a real dance between her and Deacham. And also Teddy's music in here is perfect

and really compliments the shot. Yeah, and then that moment too, when she comes back down and she just has this emotional moment in the elevator where she's been kind of foiled again. And you just see Sandra's hand come into the frame. And it's kind of almost in a way sympathetic, because it's not like she's forcing her there

with any physical way. It's just sort of like, this is the reality that she's stuck with. It's really rough. And the relationship between Dietsch and Sandra is interesting too because like you said, there is like some sympathy there. There is, they know each other, but ultimately Sandra is her captain.

Yeah. All right, we're gonna take a quick break and then I'll be back to talk with the director of this episode, Jessica Lee Gagné. The MDR team continues to search for answers as they try to piece together memories from the overtime contingency. But luckily, you don't have to take a mind-erasing elevator to work every day. So your workplace productivity can be much simpler with Confluence by Atlassian. Confluence is the connected workspace where teams can collaborate and create like never before. Where teams have easy access to the relevant pages and resources

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Learn more at Atlassian.com slash Confluence. That's A-T-L-A-S-S-I-A-N dot com slash C-O-N-F-L-U-E-N-C-E. This message is brought to you by Apple Pay. We all know that our credit card numbers can be stolen, but you know what's harder to steal? Your face. With Apple Pay, your purchases are authent's harder to steal? Your face. With Apple Pay, your purchases are authenticated by you thanks to Face ID.

Just double-click, smile, and tap. With each tap, your card number and your purchases stay secured. Pay the Apple way with your compatible device anywhere contactless payment is accepted. Apple Pay is a service provided by Apple Payment Services LLC, a subsidiary of Apple Inc. Any card used in Apple Pay is offered by the card issuer. This is like, it feels like we're filming right now. Yeah. It looks like you're zoomed in.

It looks like it's lit. It looks like it's lit by me. Yeah, it looks like it's lit by you. It's very. It's like mold beams. Yeah, mold beams, which you love. Tell people what a mold beam is. A mold beam is just, it's a type of light

we use in film for lighting. It's tungsten, so it's very warm. And it's, to me, it's the light that most looks like the real sun. So I love using it because it looks real. Right, and you use them actually a lot in episode seven. But first of all, I just want to say, I'm thrilled to be joined by the director of this episode,

the brilliant Jessica Lee Gagne. Thank you for being here, Jessica. Aw, thanks, Ben. You and I have worked together for a while, but just to let people know you've been the cinematographer on Severance from the beginning and have shot the majority of the episodes. And I also want to talk a little bit about how you approached the episode as a director or first-time director but maybe we should talk first about how we started working together just because we've been working together for about is it coming up on like eight or nine years now eight years

maybe I think it's at least seven or at seven yeah everything all of a sudden becomes ten years very quickly these days but I see everything in cycles of seven years though right right well then we see everything in cycles of seven years though. Right, right. Well then we're at the end of our first seven year cycle. But we met when I was directing Escape at Danimora, which was a limited series that I was looking for a cinematographer for

and happened upon your work in a really wonderful movie called Sweet Virginia. That was a sort of noir thriller that took place in the Pacific Northwest and reached out to you and we met up and I feel like for me it was fateful because we started working together a lot and we had a real creative bond. What did you think when we first started talking

about doing Escape at Danimara? I don't know if I ever told you this, but you speak about fate and I definitely believe in certain things being timed and faithful. But when I got the email from the producer about this, I cried because I knew it was gonna happen. And I, like the moment I read the email,

it's like my life kind of like flashed before me. And I was like, this is gonna be amazing. Well, this is the whole other thing about you that I don't know how much we wanna get into it, but you are very perceptive to the point of, you have, I think, a connection with sort of other vibes that are beyond the literal and in our day-to-day life, you feel things.

Yeah, yeah, and it's weird because it relates to Seven a little bit. And people ask me why Seven, and to me right now, I think it's like Seven found me in a way. And I feel like that about Severance. I think Severance found you and it found Dan and it found the right people to make it. And this weird force that moves at its own pace.

Yeah. Well, when we started working together, we hadn't known each other at all and delved into this eight-hour limited series. And I was taken with your work because it felt very filmic. And you're growing up in Montreal and watching movies, you worked at your dad's video store. I'm wondering what you watched growing up that inspired you. I watched so many different things. And like I did work for my father in his video stores,

plural. He had many of them. And you know, I used to actually work with him sometimes in the summers and travel with him in his truck because he was also a distributor. So he would, you know, bring movies to like small grocery stores or little stores in little towns and we would go in there and switch up their VHS is bring them the new stuff and crazy, interesting little life journey there. But just already, already already it's a little anachronistic because, you know, you're of an age when you're a kid, the people were switching over to at least to DVDs at that point. I saw the transition from VHS to DVD.

I really lived that and I saw, you know, how that impacted that industry. But, you know, one thing that's really interesting that I see inter generationally in my family and between my father and I is here I am now shooting for Apple and Netflix or whatever, all of these streaming services, and my father doesn't have any of these services and is still, I think, feels how they impacted his business. And I'm kind of like going into that next generation, which is interesting, that always has stayed with me.

And I- Did he make a conscious choice to keep the video store open in the face of the changing world? It survived because of the culture of Quebec in a way. And I started a documentary that I never finished, but maybe one day I'll finish it about these last video stores because I believe they were probably some of the last video stores in the world, or at least in North America. And they survived because they were in regional areas.

And in Quebec, it took a long time before like Netflix really introduced French content or those streaming services did that. And there's also regions that internet is actually really expensive. And it is the way that people get together is going to the video store and watching movies together. So for a long time in those regions, it was,

I mean, I think the stores closed like one or two years ago now, the last one. But they were still functioning, which is crazy. That's a long time to keep going in this day and age. But would you take the movies off the shelf and go home and watch them? All the time, I always had like a box of VHSs at my house and some mornings before school, I would start a movie

and then I'd come back after school and I'd finish the movie, cause I wouldn't have time in the morning to watch the whole thing. And like my dad would bring us to the movie several times a week when we were kids and we're watching American movies mostly like I grew up watching American films even more than French-Canadian films and it's when I started going to school in film production that's why I

really got into more international filmmaking and my mom kind of also pushed me into that because she introduced me to like foreign language films and things like that. And who were the filmmakers that you loved that made you say, I wanna do this? Well, the first film that made me realize what filmmaking could be, I think, was City of God by Fernando Mereyes.

That movie, it's like, it blew my mind. Like I loved American films growing up and was watching things like Little Shop of Horrors and all those things but when I saw City of God I was like okay this is like you can create something on a whole other level and that really fascinated me. But then I went through several phases and I think the films that brought us together are the ones that really kind of define the aesthetic that I gravitate to the most and those are those like American 70s pictures you know that we bonded over,

Serpico and Doc Day Afternoon. And for me, Clute is always a big one. I think any cinematographer tends to gravitate towards that film because to me, it's almost like cinematography perfection. For me, like I gravitate towards a heightened realism style. And I think that's what spoke to you a little bit. It's a very gritty style,

but at the same time it's really aesthetic and it's really specific, which I think resonated with you. It's a very gritty style, but at the same time, it's really aesthetic and it's really specific, which I think, you know, resonated with you. It's like it's intentional. Yeah. And I feel like when we went from Dan Amora, which was very much seventies inspired for the vibe of it, even though it took place in present day, when we went into severance, there was also kind of a similar influence that was from a very different genre. And I feel like I don't even remember how we started to develop this look, but we'd already worked together. So we kind of rolled into it. And I know with you, it's always imagery is like a big part of it and saying, hey, check out this photographer. Let's look at these pictures. Let's look at maybe look at this

movie. Let's look at this movie you've never heard of. I remember when we did Dan Amora, at this movie, let's look at this movie you've never heard of. I remember when we did Dan Amora, you showed me Tarkovsky's movie, Stalker, and it blew my mind. And of course, I'd heard of Tarkovsky, but I'd never watched, and you opened me up to that. Yeah, that was fun because I feel like when you see these things for the first time, it's magical, the experience of seeing something like Stalker. And I do work with a lot of images, so my intention usually with directors is to just make sure we're speaking the same language. So the easiest way to do that is photography and references. And photography is very fast and I can just make sure, okay, this we like, we're okay, great.

This you like this? Okay, great. I know I can go there. And to me, the most important thing is that when we're on set, you don't have to stress about the cinematography that you can like let go. And, you know, I always say that you kind of could be your own cinematographer. So I, but I'm very, very serious about that.

And I heard that in six, you were talking about you and the camera. Well, I fell over. I'm pregnant, Adam. Yeah, that was your fault because you encouraged me to operate the camera. I just think you're a great operator. Not when you have to do like really complicated

camera operating, but maybe the air mattress threw you off. Anyways, all this to see. You're being so much nicer to me on this podcast than you are in real life about my operating. Here's the thing, we can also, well, we can also talk about how focused I am on set and how I'm so curious to hear an actor's perspective also about how I get really in a flow state and in tunnel

vision and sometimes it kind of gets the best of me. But I learned a lot throughout this process. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting on episode seven, which we can get into talking about, you also acted as your own cinematographer and how did that go for you? Because I felt from my perspective watching you do your thing, it was sort of seamless in that it was just sort of an extension of you being able to express what you want to express. So I DPD any part of the episode.

You brought in Max Goldman for the film portion of the Gemma and Mark story. Yeah. I think I have to just go back to the decision of shooting my own episode. Like why did I allow myself to do that? A lot of people ask me, are you sure you can handle this? It's the first time you're directing. Do you actually really want to shoot it?

I knew where it would become a problem and that was gonna be these flashbacks. I needed someone else. And it was also interesting to work with someone who had a new eye as well, because it's a new world. So all of that I thought made a lot of sense and working with Max was great. But working with myself was very weird.

I did not understand what it really meant, but there was this one moment on set and I had this feeling of everything's moving so fast. Everything's happening really, really fast and I don't feel like I can breathe. And I realized at that moment, I was standing in Gemma's suite and I realized that conversation that happens

between a cinematographer and a director wasn't happening for me. And that kind of was giving me anxiety. At one point I looked at Sam Evoy, our script supervisor, and I'm like, Sam, I'm gonna talk to you like you're my cinematographer. I'm sorry, I just, I need that time because I needed to breathe.

And I needed to know that like, that it was okay. You know? Because that relationship is important. Right, it is very lonely directing, I find, because ultimately it's a subjective choice that you're making and you can look around to everybody, but at the end of the day, it's your choice. And you know, I found working with you,

you always gave me a lot of confidence as a director to take a chance, but you didn't have that for yourself. Except every once in a while I'd pop over, but you had me shooting second unit, which I was... Yeah, and those shots came in handy. Like they say it does. Yeah, the Rolex. But what was your idea in terms of just the shooting

on film for the flashbacks, which is something we hadn't done before on the Rolex, but that was, what was your idea in terms of just the shooting on film for the flashbacks, which is something we hadn't done before on the show. What was your thinking on that? Well, the thought about shooting it on film to me, it's funny because originally I am the cinematographer of this show. And you know, when it comes to like choosing cameras and lenses, I'm like a huge, I mean, I'm a huge part of that process. You know, I'll show you different things and then I'll see how you react from them. And then ultimately we're like making this decision, but we had chosen not to shoot on film. And I don't know if you remember, I was always adamant

that I didn't never thought Severance should be shot on film. I wanted to shoot on film. Yeah. I mean, so many directors want to shoot on film. I understand that. And so many DPs do as well. But then when this idea of flashbacks came up, I was like, oh crap, I'm the one who has to bring up the fact that I think this should be shot on film. Now I get to be like that person.

But there's, you know, I don't like in post adding a look to something to make it look like a flashback. I was like, what's the most natural and simple way to do this and basically shooting on film evokes nostalgia right away now for us and for where we are in society now. So I was like, well, this is the simple answer. Let's try and do this.

And then we ended up doing it. And by the way, the house, can we talk about the house? The house was the house that Jessica was renting in Nyack, New York while she was making Severance that Jeremy Handel, our production designer, and you decided, oh, what about your house to shoot Mark and Jemma's? Doing what people say you never, any filmmaker will say,

no one will ever get to shoot in my house. You don't let anyone touch your house. Of course, because it's people carrying equipment and sitting down and crews, I mean, everybody tries their best, but you don't wanna do that. But this house was made for it. And do you know about how it happened originally?

I was describing what I thought this place should be. I thought it was an apartment at first. I was like, oh, I think they should live in an apartment with moldings, and there's libraries, and that's an old place, and it has the times on the walls. And I'm talking about this space. And Jeremy had been to the house I was living in,

which is an amazing beautiful home I was renting it and he is like you realize Jessica. We're gonna be shooting this in your house I had never thought about it. I just was speechless for like a minute. I'm like, oh my god, he's right He's we're shooting this in this. Yeah, it's pretty amazing because it was also at the very end of our shoot I think we had a well, it was also at the very end of our shoot. I think we had a, well, it was like a 186 day shoot this season and it was at the very end and spring was coming and the leaves were on the trees

and intentionally it's one of the only scenes you'll see in the show that has green trees in it because it's a different time. And it was stuff, the feeling was, it was a stripped down crew to a certain amount and it was just a different approach for that week of shooting. I thought some really amazing, beautiful choices in that house, those scenes in the kitchen or her sitting alone or Adam with the crib trying to break the crib down or the scene in the bathroom where she's going through that really tough time was just so sensitively and beautifully shot

and felt to me like moments from like could be from like a Bergman film or something like that. I mean, it had that kind of feeling of that starkness and that beauty and gives it this unique quality that was very important because this is the only time we're ever really seeing Mark and Gemma's relationship in the past. Yeah, and the show, I feel, I mean, you tell me if you feel this way, but I feel like we are seeing this show through the perspective,

the way Mark's character views life is like the visual tone of this show. And in the timeline where we are, when we're in this story, we're living it with him in a way. Now we're in season two, what's amazing is we get to, you know, go out broader and we see other people's perspective, but it does kind of taint the whole show.

And this was a moment where it's like, okay, this is before the decision to sever. So this is life before, what did life feel like? How do we evoke that? There were so many things, every department brought something special where it's like just the plants, the colors, the lighting, everything was tweaked in a different world. And we introduced things that we had never really done in Severance, but that was intentional. And the meaning was just to evoke a completely different feeling.

Yeah. And a different time. I also thought just in terms of visual storytelling, how you blocked and came up with even the scene where Mark's sitting alone and the police come up. What a tough scene to have to figure out how to shoot because it's a scene you've seen a million times in movies and TV shows and not have it seem cheesy or cliche. The way that you did it with no dialogue, just seeing the police taking their hats off, well, you just, you know, and I love that dissolve as he turns away, there's outline of Mark's head

and you see the hallway and elevator with Jem in it. Yeah, the transitions were to kind of evoke sometimes like transitioning from an emotional state to another, sometimes the emotional states match and sometimes they don't't depending on the transition. But this specifically for both of them, there's this heart dropping knowingness that happens for both of them in different timelines, but they're shown at the same time. That to me really connected them.

What you did was they're in different timelines, but the whole idea in the episode is that you're watching Mark journeying and Gemma is having these moments and these flashes and thinking about Mark, but you're connecting them visually even though they're both separate. So it doesn't feel like a flashback per se. It feels like we're connecting both of them

as people emotionally. Yeah, there's a lot to say about that and about how we view life depending on the things that happen to us and how we choose to see things. And I think that this episode, for me life depending on the things that happen to us and how we choose to see things. And I think that this episode, for me, one of the reasons it found me is because I love all of these crazy things about consciousness and time and space.

I'm a sucker for this stuff. And I was like, oh, I get to explore this in a cinematic language. And that to me was like, I was like a kid in the candy store being able to do that because we have these three different timelines and there was this idea of a whirlwind of things just all happening all at once. And I don't actually believe in the concept of time. Yeah, I use it as a word in the English language, but to me it's not really,

it's relevant in my personal experience and your personal experience, but you can see above it in this episode, it showcases that that everything is happening kind of all at once. So we are constantly affected by everything. And in this moment, they join at the end of the episode in that emotion, in that vibration.

And you see them move through space in this like opposite way, but they're feeling the same feeling of not, of having lost each other. Like I sometimes would know things like that, but then also some of this was like purely intuitive. And I feel like as filmmakers, that's what happens, right? You just try and follow your intuition and what feels right. Because it got really technical.

And that was always one of my fears that I would not be a good director because I would be the technical one. You know, it was something that was in my head for a long time and I feared this. But then doing this episode at first, I didn't think it was gonna be as emotional as it was and the writing kept getting more and more sensitive

and more and more emotional. And I just stuck with it, you know, even though I was really afraid of it. But I was actually able to go there, which surprised me. And I feel like that technical and emotional aspect together is also what makes Seven strong. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's a combination of these visuals that are very technically, you know, kind

of crazy to pull off and also just this pure simple emotion. The shot going down through the center console down to the testing floor, that was one of your little sort of side projects. Scott Maguire's side project. Yeah, it side projects. Scott McGuire's side project. Scott McGuire is one of our camera operators, a great camera operator. Yeah, and I mean everyone in the camera department participated in this shot in their own way. Mike Guthrie was always a big part of technical development stuff with us as well. He was the AC on the other camera. But, um, can I just say that I feel like it was very important for you on that shot to start off of a Gemma and start to go down, which was a crazy shot. I mean,

we could get into the rain on Mark. I mean, shout out to Adam for that though, because like we were talking about like really technical things and emotional things at the same time. Those two scenes were very strange to put back to back, you know, the very sensitive scene about this miscarriage and then going into this scene in MDR. And I remember there was like questioning about that, like, is that the right thing to do?

But in my mind, it's like, that's life. You are sometimes living a moment in your life and there's a part of you that's reliving a very traumatic experience at the same time. Yeah, and so all of a sudden we're in this moment, but what you did visually was that you have the shower water coming down on her and Mark and then we transition into Mark and MDR

back from the scene from season one to sort of connect that, those two thoughts. And what you did was you had the rain coming down or I call it the rain, the shower water. And then you literally had a shower water set up in MDR. Because you and I think the show we've always been focused on not wanting to do CG when we don't have to do CG stuff.

And you wanted to do the shot going down the center console for real. So that's a real shot. That's not like a CG wires and know, wires and vortex, which was really crazy. But you had the film running backwards on Adam. So when you get into MDR, the rain is going up and he's getting dry, which is just like insane. I had to explain that to Adam and there, I think, I think there's probably like a point where Adam's like, I'm okay. Like he had to like go of the technical thing and do his own thing, I think, because it was so I'm like, I'm okay. Like he had to like go of the technical thing and do his own thing I think, because it was so,

I'm like, at the beginning of the shot, you are in MDR and then you have to imagine that you end up in the shower with Gemma, but we're gonna play it back in reverse in the edit. And then there's like rain and a bolt arm and all these things. And it looks insane. Reverse acting is hard for actors

because you're asking somebody to imagine doing something backwards and you understand theoretically what it is, but it's really, I think, hard for your mind to compute it. I felt bad almost asking Adam to do that. There was a part of me that was like, why are we doing this? This is horrible to ask this. He loves to do stuff. He's like the most technical actor I know. I mean, he's so good at that stuff though. Well, thank God for him for that

because I feel like both of them were like amazing technical actors, Deach and Adam. And I feel like for this episode, you needed that. You needed people who were like, I'm in it, let's do it. I've got this, I can hit that, I can be there and then still perform at the same time. So it was quite challenging, but they both I think showed up brilliantly.

And then being able to do these flashbacks, these memories to me, I just want it to be as simple as possible to just like let the story, the story tells itself. You just didn't want the technicality to get in the way of that part of the filmmaking. So we really stripped it down. Honestly, if you look at it, it's shot, counter shot. I wanted it to be really simple because of all the technical stuff we were doing. Right. Okay. I want to talk about the testing of all the technical stuff we were doing. Right. Okay, I want to talk about the testing floor because the testing floor was a new environment and we knew that this was a big thing because we were going to finally go off of severed

floor. Yeah. What was important to you about it for the episode? So we were questioning a lot at the beginning, should we do something very new, something very different or should it still be in the aesthetic of Lumen? And we were going down the route of keeping it in the lumen aesthetic. And I think the only thing I knew very clearly, which was very much like a cinematographer thing, I knew how I wanted it to be lit because the end sequence of her running away, I knew

that I wanted it to be lit by this type of lighting. The floor lighting, the floor lighting because we'd done the sort of energy saver lighting on the top lights, but this floor lighting that you came up with is so great because it's just a totally different thing and the way you use it in that shot where you see the light, you hear the footsteps, but you don't see the person is very specific and I think really cool. Yeah, so that kind of like inched it in a direction, but then we wanted to do a set that was very confusing in its own way and we had a very new kind of language. And we went with these diagonals and triangles,

which is interesting, you know, the triangle of Heli, Gemma and Mark. But one thing that was a total synchronicity that we found out later with this set, and I think Jeremy and I, our minds were blown with this. And Severance is a show that has been blessed with many, many synchronicities. But when we went back to that college,

Gans College, which is Nassau Community College in New York, and when we went back to that college, Gans College, which is Nassau Community College in New York, and when we went back there, we had to find an office. And then when we went to look at the offices that were available there in this big tower, we take the elevator and the doors open to this floor. And this was after we knew we wanted to do a triangular set. But as soon as the doors open, Jeremy and I walk in and we have this moment where we look at each other and we're speechless again. All the angles were triangular in this building. So Gemma's office, you know, you'd have to, I tried to show it in that one or shot of him coming out of the elevator, but it was very, very challenging optically to

see it. But those hallways are all based on a triangle form. That's when we kind of know like things are done right, you know? and I think Jeremy's great at following his intuition and just seeing where things go. He's, he's very open, kind of like you, you guys both have a very similar process with that where you're just open minded. For me, it's been a big lesson on severance and working with you in general is your open mindedness to seeing how things can move with their own force. Yeah, I just would say for me on my end, that I feel the same thing with you, that you have opened up for me too, creatively, the sort of the willingness to take a chance with something

and to go with your intuition for me is something that I've gotten from working with you. I guess I'm not afraid of doing bold, bold, bold things for sure. But when I don't have to own them, it's a lot easier. And the biggest fear of directing is, well, you have to own these choices. So it's very easy to comment on other directors as a cinematographer, as a critic. But the act of directing and putting something out in the world that you're signing is very courageous, I find.

And I think is the most stressful thing about it. that you're signing is very courageous, I find. And it's, I think is like the most stressful thing about it. I have to learn to be okay with the fact that not everyone likes everything and that's fine, but it definitely had been blocking me for a long time. And I feel like to get to that level of craftsmanship, you do have to be open to go there. Right, so how was the experience of directing for you coming out of it and will you ever be a cinematographer

again or are you now just a director? The experience was very scary. I didn't really wanna do it at first. It's funny because you had asked me years ago, like, hey, would you ever direct? And I was like, no, I would not do that. And then in my mind I was like, but I feel like I'd be interested in like something

kind of like Nolan-esque, you know? I don't know why like that, if I were to direct. And then this came around and I realized that there would be no better opportunity for me to try this. And I went through a lot of personal experiences and personal growth and I realized that like, I needed to face this fear of mine.

And there was just not a better place, you know, being supported by you in this environment, having a crew that knew me on a show that I knew and understood, knew the writers, there was just never gonna be this, this was not gonna happen again. So I'm like, okay, we're gonna do it and we're gonna, we're gonna see what happens. But I, um, I felt very sick the first couple of weeks. I didn't feel good at all. I just kind of moved through that feeling and I tried to be as present as I could. And you really helped me with actors.

And I feel like you were slowly coaching me like throughout the season. You were kind of like sometimes saying, you know with actors like this, this and that. And I'm like, okay, I'm holding onto that. Cause I feel like he's trying to tell me something I need to, cause I'm not- And then you would just do the opposite

of whatever I told you to do, right? Not really, no. I feel like you helped me how to, because I'm not. And then you would just do the opposite of whatever I told you to do, right? Not really, no. I feel like you helped me understand that it doesn't need to be complicated. And it's really just about being present and accompanying them, because they're going to find it. And tonight's is just a little push in one way or another, and exploring.

And I think the beauty of Severance as this show is there's room for exploration, and there's room for intuition. And I think it is what the beauty of Severance as a show is there's room for exploration and there's room for intuition. And I think it is what makes Severance, Severance, you know? I think you're right. I think you're right, like allowing space, even though like there's not a lot of improvisation per se, script wise, there's room for just things to happen.

And I have to say, I remember one day we were shooting on Danimora and I yelled cut after a scene and you came up and you go, why did you yell cut so soon? You remember that? I do not remember that. You said you yell cut too fast. And I was like, what? And it's like, maybe she's right. So then the next take, I let it go and it just went on way too long.

And the actress kept just acting. And I was like, oh, wow, stuff happens here that you would not have happened. So I have to thank you for that because it just opened up so much for me. But throughout this whole answer, you still have evaded my question, which was, will you ever go back to just being a cinematographer ever?

And I think, you know, obviously everybody wants you to be a director because you're really, really good. But I'm just, what's your answer to that? You know, I've learned in my life to never say never, but I fell in love again with directing, because I guess I had done it in film school, you know, but it brought a new happiness for me that I had kind of lost, and it brought kind of light to my life again, ironically. I think being a cinematographer is definitely part of my journey and will affect the type of director I'm becoming, but I'm just in love with it.

And I feel I have to just keep going. I'm afraid. I have no idea what's next, but I just wanna move in this darkness and see what happens. I think you should keep directing for sure. It's great talking to you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Man, that was really great.

So glad you too got to talk about this episode. Yeah. Jess is just such a terrific, terrific director. It's exciting thinking about her directing more in the future. Yeah. OK, before we go, there's one more thing we have to do. And this is something we're contractually obligated

to do at this point. Oh, OK. It's about that time, huh? Yeah. It's time for us to check in with Zach Cherry and hear his prediction, in air quotes that I'm making, about what he thinks will happen in episode eight. Here we go.

All right. Let's hear how spot on Zach Cherry is. in air quotes that I'm making about what he thinks will happen in episode eight. Here we go. All right, let's hear how spot on Zach Cherry is. Wow, another exciting episode of Severance. Now, of course I'm ready for my predictions, but I do just wanna say, I noticed last week, Adam, that you called this my favorite segment. This is not my favorite segment. This is sort of the fan's favorite segment,

the people, you know, the nation's favorite segment. My favorite segment is the end of the podcast when I get to go home to my loving family. Now, I'll go ahead and get on with my predictions for the week. Next time on Severance. I can't believe we spent some time at the dentist. The dentist is my favorite part of being alive.

So I predict that in the next episode of Severance, we go back to the dentist and see each character we've ever met on the show get their annual dental cleaning. Wow, dental hygiene. It's so important. Call in and let Ben and Adam know how important dental hygiene is to you. Why would we do that on the show?

Yeah, obviously don't do that, please. Yeah, Zach, I don't know if there's this layer of sarcasm or something. When he says, wow, it's so insincere. Yeah. And then he's saying he basically, his favorite part of the whole thing is going home. Yeah, that felt insulting. And then he said that the nation's favorite segment was him.

Again, I just wonder even like, let alone reading the scripts, whether he's watching episodes or if he's just sort of maybe doing a couple of things at the same time, like he's scrolling through. He's for sure doing like six things. I think he's scrolling through his next Fallout script on his phone while he's sort of like side-eyeing, catching what's going on on Severance.

I'm questioning his loyalty. I'm questioning if there ever was any loyalty. Yeah, it's a good point. It's every man for himself with Zack. Sure is. And you know what? It's great, he's lovable. He's lovable and cuddly but Something else there, too. He's a very very good baby Okay, that is it for this episode the severance podcast with Ben and Adam

We'll be back next week to talk about season 2 Episode 8 and you can stream every episode of severance on Apple TV Plus with new episodes coming out every Friday. And then make sure you're listening to our podcast, which drops right after the episode airs. The Severance podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions, and Great Scott Productions. If you like the show,

be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or your other podcast platform of choice. Our executive producers are Barry Finkel, Henry Malofsky, Gabrielle Lewis, Jenner Weiss-Berman, and Leah Reese-Dennis. This show is produced by Zandra Ellen, Ben Goldberg, and Naomi Scott. This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Basil. We had additional engineering from Javi Cruces and Davy Sumner.

Show clips are courtesy of Fifth Season. Music by Theodore Shapiro. Special thanks to the team at Odyssey, Maura Curran, Eric Donnelly, Michael LeVay, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney, and Hillary Shuth. And the team at Red Hour, John Lesher, Carolina Pesikov, John Pablo Antonetti, Martin Valdiruten, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker, and Oliver Acker. And at Great Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin, and Kristi Smith at Rise Management.

We had additional production help from Kristin Torres and Melissa Slaughter. I'm Ben Stiller. And I'm Adam Scott. Thanks for listening. And remember, nothing says Christmas like grouting. Or de-grouting. Or de-grouting.