The Sheet with Jeff Marek - Ducks Match the MASSIVE Leo Carlsson Offer Sheet ft. David Pagnotta, Hart Levine, Kevin Kurz, and Steve Werier

Episode Date: July 9, 2026

On today’s episode of The Sheet, Jeff Marek is joined by David Pagnotta from The Fourth Period and Daily Faceoff to open the show and break down the biggest story in the NHL: the Anaheim Ducks accepting Leo Carlsson’s five-year, $90 million offer sheet ($18M AAV). They discuss Anaheim’s decision, the fallout around the league, what it means for the Ducks moving forward, how the Philadelphia Flyers and Danny Brière approached the situation, and what trades, signings, and storylines could be coming next across the NHL.Then, Hart Levine from PuckPedia joins Jeff to dive deeper into the financial side of the NHL offseason, including the massive increase in free agency spending, the rising salary cap, new contract structures, and how teams are adapting to the league’s changing economic landscape. Kevin Kurz then joins to break down the Flyers’ side of the Carlsson offer sheet, how the move was received in Philadelphia, how Carlsson would have fit into the organization, and what the Flyers’ next targets could be. To close the show, former Florida Panthers Assistant General Manager Steve Werier joins Jeff to examine both sides of the Ducks and Flyers situation, the strategy behind offer sheets, and which players and teams could be involved in the next wave of NHL offer sheet drama.#TheSheet #NHL #NHLOffseason #Flyers #FlyersTalk #LetsGoDucks #AnaheimDucks #NHLFreeAgency #HockeySHOUTOUT TO OUR SPONSORS!!👍🏼 Canadian Blood Services: https://www.blood.ca/Reach out to [e-mail] to connect with our Sales Team and discuss opportunities to partner with us!If you liked this, check out:🚨 OTT - Coming in Hot Sens | https://www.youtube.com/c/thewallyandmethotshow🚨 TOR - LeafsNation | https://www.youtube.com/@theleafsnation401🚨 EDM - OilersNation | https://www.youtube.com/@Oilersnationdotcom🚨 VAN - CanucksArmy | https://www.youtube.com/@Canucks_Army🚨 CGY - FlamesNation | https://www.youtube.com/@Flames_Nation🚨 Daily Faceoff Fantasy & Betting | www.youtube.com/@DFOFantasyandBetting____________________________________________________________________________________________Connect with us on ⬇️Link Tree: https://linktr.ee/daily_faceoff💻 Website: https://www.dailyfaceoff.com🐦 Follow on twitter: https://x.com/DailyFaceoff💻 Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dailyfaceoffDaily Faceoff Merch:https://nationgear.ca/collections/daily-faceoff Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Offer sheet matched Dave Panyoda, editor-in-chief, fourth period, DFO Insider. Coming up on the program today, by the way, Hart Levine is going to be stopping by from Puckpedia. Kevin Kerr's covering off the Philadelphia Flyers. They are still without the services of Leo Carlson, and I think we're endeavoring. Do we get Steve exactly quickly? Just sort of tee up what's coming up here in a couple of moments. Okay, we're standing by for potentially one other guest. In the meantime, we'll kick off the show with the news.

we thought we were getting tomorrow. We thought the Anaheim ducks would freeze out the Philadelphia flyers right to the very last minute slash second, but we get it a day early. They match the offer sheet. Five years, $90 million, $18 million is the AAV. But everybody already knows that, Dave. What else do you think we should know about this situation?

Was this headed towards an inevitability? Was it a fait accompli the minute it was offered, it was going to get matched? Yes, is the short answer for a variety of reasons, Jeff. I mean, you know, for what, two weeks going into July 1, Pat Verbeek kept saying, we're matching whatever you guys come at us with. We've got the space. We're going to match.

Do your darnest. And the flyer said, you know what, we're going to do that and some by making it 18 million and making it a minimum salary per year. and then bonuses the rest of the way. Just under 40 million bucks has to be paid out to Leo Carlson starting today over the next 11 and a half months. It's a lot of coin. But the ducks were prepared to match it.

I think they had no choice after telling everybody and puffing their chest that they were going to do it. And as the days progressed, as we got to about Sunday, we started to hear word that the ducks are starting to shop some of their other guys to free up additional money for other business. outside of Leo Carlson, cough, cough, cuttergoche. And then, I think Monday, we started to hear that, yeah, Philly's anticipating Anaheim matching. And no plan B. is my understanding.

They're not going to pivot and go after Adam Fintilly or Connor Bedard or whomever else. Boring. Boring. Yeah. They're going to stick with what they've got and maybe shift the mindset a little bit in a different direction because they're engaged in talks with other guys and other teams. But, well, yeah, they need those guys locked into deals. And they've both filed for arbitration.

So, you know, there's more business to be done for the Philadelphia Flyers. It just likely, I'd be shocked if it goes another offer sheet direction. From the duck side of things, they've got more business to do as well. And Henry and Susan Samueli put out a statement saying that this was an easy decision for them and that Pat Verbeek intelligently had enough cap space in order to match this. Let me get to that quote.

You tweeted this one out and I captured it and repurposed it. This is from Dave. Dux owner Henry and Susan Samueli. Quote, matching the offer sheet was an easy decision. I would love to have been in the room when this thing arrived. As Pat has intelligently left enough cap space to give us the ability to retain

Leo. We have extremely high expectations for Leo. We firmly believe he will continue with strong growth trajectory, you hope so for 18 a copy, and become one of the truly elite centers in the league while continuing to make a strong impact in our community. Am I too cynical because I'm sure you got the same texts with people capturing Pat has intelligently left cap space? I'm not so sure the Samuelis we're intending to use the cap, the upper limit of the cap as a magnet. Yeah, I think from we are extremely, we have extremely high expectations for leave.

That part on, bang on. Totally believe all of that. The first, the previous, you know, sentence, a little questionable. Well, that's a multi-billioner saying like, yeah, I'm going to flex, like, I'll match this easy. You want to, you want it? It's like the Dundon with Montreal and I hope, easy match.

Right. And something like that easy match. This is like anything? Okay, let's go. Yeah, when you've got 70 billion at your disposal, yeah, sure. This is $40 million a year, dropping the bucket. But it doesn't mean they're overly happy with dropping that much into a bucket that they didn't expect to be that large initially. And look, when this all, when we got to the draft, when we continued towards July 1st,

the talk was $12, $13 million for, Leo Carlson and 10, 11 for Cutter Goce. Offer sheet comes in on Friday and holy smokes. Totally different. To the point where, and we touched on this yesterday, the other day, Cutter Goce is looking at, you know, okay, he was at 11, 12, 13. It's 15 range now. And I think there seems to, at least the early word this morning before this was even matched, before this came out, was that the 15 range, maybe it's a little lower, but the 15 range seems to be a comfort zone on their side. So we'll see if it gets to that. You can exceed the cap by 10% in the off season. But what does this mean for Vatron?

What does this mean for Coulorne? What does this mean for Kreider? I think two of those guys are on the outs. Yeah. I have an idea. No, but honestly, the next shoe dropping in this one. Okay. Because we remember, none of this is personal.

This is just business, right, Dave? Like that's what everyone just keeps up. Just business, not personal. What about the Gocha situation? No, this is not, this is not agenda driven here. Mm-hmm. Could you see Pat Fribique turning around and handing one or both of the players you mentioned to the Pittsburgh Penguins at a deep, deep discount to get out of their cap situation?

here. And here's the second round pick as a thank you. Wouldn't shock me. Pittsburgh's got the cap space. They do. They're one year contracts. They're running out one year contracts here now. Yeah. Vitrono's got two.

Oh, sorry. Vitron has two. You're right. You're right. Yes. Criter's on his last year. Yeah, Coulorin as well. And Coulorin's at six and a quarter.

I think Crider's six and a half in that range. Vitrano's at four and a half. Or just... Toronto's four and a half, Kolaran 625, Kreider 6.5. Okay. So Pittsburgh's got the money.

They got the money for all three. But you need some players still playing in Anaheim. So you move out two of those guys. You're going to have to incentivize. And there was word against Sunday when these names started to pop up that with three first,

with three, excuse me, second round picks in next year's draft, the ducks may be willing to include one of those, maybe more if they get desperate enough or maybe another pick in, order to take on the full pop of these deals. Wouldn't suppose, because moving two of them, even if it's, let's say, one of the sixes and Vitrano, you're freeing up a little over 10 mil.

With the nine and change you have now, that's more than enough for Cried, for, excuse me, for Gochie, Cutter, and it gives you a little flexibility to still fish in the free agent market to fill the void of one of those guys leaving. and probably at a decent rate, like an Eli Tolvenin, for example, is still out there looking and trying to find a new home and so on. And so there are other guys, obviously. But it gives the ducks more flexibility.

Pittsburgh's an interesting one, Jeff. I mean, they're open, they're looking. They're going through a quasi-rebuild. What was it the term used with Alvin hybrid rebuild or whatever? It was a word. salad and then there was a pause and then he said in a hybrid fashion or in a hybrid way. What kind of like them? Like how many potato chip words can you cram into what you're answering now, Patrick?

Yes. Yeah. It seems like Pittsburgh is actually doing that, but actually doing it well. So wouldn't surprise me. I don't disagree. So here's the the cascade of this is fascinating. And we haven't even really, you know, got into, oh, we did. Like you said, like they're not going to go off or sheet shop.

anymore with whether it's, you know, Fantalia or Bidar, but we should get on the Philadelphia page here in a couple of seconds. But you know what I wonder about with Cutter Goce here? Because now all of a sudden his price is higher. And the Anaheim ducks now have

one season of real pain until the cap goes up again and then they have control and their salary cap is a little bit more lubricated. Right now, Patford Beach just had a bunch of sand thrown in the gear. right like that's that's what happened here and the Anaheim ducks have been caught up in the gears of salary cap history and salary cap hell and to the point where I think it's the right one he's not in control of his finances and that's an awful place to be if you're the general manager of a team or if you're the owner of the team Samueli statement made it sound very much like this is fine the dog with the coffee this is fine this is fine everything's good we love the player money is fine we don't mind spending this much money

But here's where I see Cutter Goce. Yeah, exactly. There's one name that I think about with Cutter Goce situation, and that is Kevin LeBank. So Kevin LeBank, as you well know, when he was with the San Jose Sharks, was coming off of a 56-point season. Was it 56? Let me grab this year. Sorry, coming off a 40 points, 40 points, yeah, 40-point season. No, no, no, I was right, 56-point season.

It was coming off a 56-point season with the San Jose Sharks. San Jose was in a cap crunch. They needed a favor. Kevin LeBank and Agent Michael Curran. Yeah. Signed a one year, one million dollar deal with the San Jose sharks and everybody went. What? One million dollars?

One million bucks for Kevin LeBank coming off that season? That doesn't make sense until we saw the contract afterwards. Yes. It was a four-year deal, 4.7 per. The quid pro quo. Again, can't prove any of this. I don't necessarily not allowed to have like, here's one contract and here's one contract in the drawer.

We know that doesn't happen in the NHL, but it's not as if all the evidence didn't point at that very direction. So when I think about Cutter Goce, you may call me cynical, Dave, but I think about Kevin LeBank and how the San Jose Sharks and Doug Wilson and Michael current handled that situation. Thank you very much. Could it be, we'll do you the solid here, but on the next deal, we're getting it all back and more. I get what you're saying. I get it. God, Dave, say it. A couple things. A couple things. Okay. First, oddly enough, I remember where I was when that four-year deal came in the following year. I was standing on my porch outside when I got a text and I was like,

On the LeBank deal, yeah. We all went, whoa. Crazy. Of all things you remember, that's one of them. The primary reason why I don't think that's going to happen here is Kurt Overhart. And I don't anticipate Cutter Gochier and his agent going in that direction. I could have seen Minchikov maybe going in that direction. I mean, before he signed his contract, 7.2, good reason why you don't.

Sure. But I don't, I mean, yes, you could do that. And yes, you could take a $9 million or $8 million deal for one year and then signed $17 million next year. I guess in theory, yes. But I just don't see a scenario where his representation would be comfortable at all. all with that. Considering, again, the word was that the money already jumped. Yeah.

Like less than 24 hours after the offer sheet for Leo Carlson came in. But yeah, it's a possibility. And I don't think the, look, I think everybody's in the business of doing favors. I just think that's one hell of a favor that. Oh, it's a whopper. And let's not forget, too. I'm glad you mentioned Kurt Overhart. He was the agent for, and still is for.

Troy Terry, who got, they didn't actually get into the room, but it felt very much like the contract appeared from Pat Verbeek as the arbitration door was opening. Right. Then all of a sudden, that appeared and he got his 7 million AAV and everybody was happy. And now we're going to go through another situation here with the same agent, a different player. Yeah. And compensation that is at a very elite level. As much as much as I look at this organization and I,

go and Pat's in a tough spot now and Samoelli's are trying to cover just make it look like everything's good and green. Yeah. If you're Jeff Solomon, you got to be like yanking out your hair and just rubbing your eyes and everything going, I'm the, he's the cap guy. He's the contract guy. This is not what we wanted. This isn't anywhere near where we thought we would be in this situation.

We've got to revamp our whole financial mind structure here. So like I get and he's he's he's he's tough on the negotiations too He was in L.A. He is here and between him and Verbeek You're going to have to modify your we talked we talked on this Hang on are you going to say are you going to use the C word are you going to use change Is Pat for Beak going to change day fan yoda Is Pat for beak going to mean we I said yet he should I think mistakes will continue

until the lesson is learned? Yeah, yeah, I think I think maybe the lesson is starting to sink in a little bit. Especially, yes, who is Jordan Schmaltz always says this,

always bust this out. Yesterday's price is not today's price. Yeah. That's where we're at. That's what the owners used to stay during the 04 lockout. The best deal you could have signed was yesterday.

The best deal you could have signed was yesterday. That's always the classic from the owners during lockout. So the best deal you could have had was yesterday. A little different now. And I'm going to be different tomorrow whenever Goce signs too. Not saying tomorrow tomorrow, but you know what I mean.

Sure. That's going to be fascinating. Anything else you want to sort of empty the tank on here? Hart Levine from Puckpeda coming up here in a couple of seconds. But is there anything that you want to make sure that you get out right now about either this entire situation, the futures of both teams, general managers, this player, like, look, he's an Anaheim duck. They get control next July 2nd after the next whopper of a bonus is. paid. You know, Leo Carlson's in Anaheim Duck. Does he stay in Anaheim Duck for the next five years?

I mean, if he produces the manner in which they anticipate him to and that I think we expect to, I think just because, like, again, we're going back to business decisions. Now, I do think part of the negotiation left him a little salty, but water under the bridge when you're collecting whatever is being deposited into your account today, 19 point whatever. So, I think water under the bridge, sit down, talk, get everything on, lay all the cards out. Yeah. And then you're good to go. As I said, there was a little bit of bad taste in your mouth after the negotiations,

which led to the offer sheet. But I think it's, I don't think anything is not fixed. Like, it's fixable is what I'm trying to say. And I would be surprised. And you're right from what you said earlier. there is a lot of cap relief because Beckett Seneca is going to need a new deal eventually. But he has two years left on his ELC. So he can sign July 1 of 2027, which Pat get on that, really.

We'll see, Dave. Learn. We'll see. But that deal doesn't kick in until the following season. So you've got a lot of, by that point, I think the cap's 122, 123. So there. And then from Philly's side, just quickly, I mean, you tried, you took your best shot, it was calculated. You go on about your business now. But, you know, you got a couple big deals that need to be attended to with Zegris and with Drysdale. So, you know, last one here. I did very much get the feeling almost immediately that the flyers knew this was going to be a long shot.

even at that number. But that if they, you know, it's, part of me is, like, I'll be honest to Dave, I think that they thought it was a long shot. And then the other part of me said, well, if you're the Philadelphia Flyers and the Anaheim ducks don't match, are you the dog that just caught the car?

Yeah. Like, now what do I do? Worth the risk. Well, that too, yes. I mean, yeah, it's like, oh, wow, okay, I caught the car. Okay, what? Like, I'm sure they would have had a plan, but is there not that element of the dog that caught the car? Yeah, I think so.

But I think they felt it was worth the risk. 100%. We'll deal with this. We'll deal with this if it happens. You know, there's, I think there's an option, like, there's an opportunity if you need to free up additional money. I think there's, like, Ristolin's still out there. There's still conversations with teams there. You know, I'm sure, again, like, I don't think there's any worry that they're not going to get Drysdale and Zegras-Law.

in by any account. But, you know, we'll see. I mean, there was a, there was a some report the other day. I mean, I thought they were getting close with, with Drysdale. Triesdale. I heard that too, yeah. Yeah, and there was, I think the numbers being thrown out were four times six in a quarter. I think the player's side's looking for more than that, quite, quite a decent amount more than that, especially with some of the numbers being thrown out. So there's a little happy medium that's going to have to happen there. But we will, we will see. You take the shot. Hey, man, look, if you end up with the car, beautiful. You worry about it afterwards. In this case, the car is lugging a bunch of briefcases with cash in it over to Sweden right now.

I'm going to have to build a bigger driveway if I'm going to have this. Oh, poor Danny Breyer. Although, I'll tell you what, him and Keith Jones are heroes in Philadelphia right now, even just for taking the swing. Oh, yeah. Go for it. You've been great hopping on every time whenever there's like big news. You're right there. want to know on behalf of all of us here. It's really appreciated you sharing all of your expertise here over offer sheet gate. Like what a wild week it's been. What a wild six days. And now we'll turn our attention back to Jason Robertson. Okay. Yes. How's that? Yes. There you. Sorry, Dallas. Back on Robertson watch. You're on the clock. Yeah, back to you, Dallas. All right. Thanks, Dave. You be good, pal. You too, buddy.

Dave Panyota, DFO Insider, editor-in-chief of the fourth period. Someone who's been watching this. and at times correcting people on this, like me, is Hart Levine, the conceptual genius, as I like to call him, behind Parcopedia, partners here at Daily Faceoff, who's been waiting patiently to have all kinds of hot takes and great opinions on this one. First of all, the obvious question I think for everybody is, did you think that this was, like this was going to be the terminal point of this discussion? the ducks were going to match. I think that, especially when you're on record saying we're going to match any offer sheet, it's really hard to then not match. I mean, you kind of lose the credibility if you put that out there.

The quote I think today said it was an easy decision. I can't imagine it was an easy decision. I do think there's a lot to consider and how it changes their whole salary structure going forward, their window. you know it's a it's a it's a big uh that's a big multiple hanging out there now 18 million on him right so yeah i don't think it was a no-brainer match like i do think that there is like i always i always cite this against town so pretent british economist john maynard keens when he was caught this is this is a hundred years ago caught flip-flopping on an issue he said

famously something along the lines of well when the facts change i change my mind along with it what pray tell do you do and the first facts in this situation change profoundly with the number. Like, I know that everyone would have, they just treated Pat for beak like a pinata and, oh, you said you were going to, you're going to match any offer sheet. And now you've gone back on your, when facts change, you have to change your mind with it. I remember the free trade discussions in Canada in 84. You know, John Turner roasting Brian Mulrooney said only don't change their mind. So, like, there are escape hatches here for managers that want to sort of flip-flop on what they say.

There's a historical precedent here in politics and economics. Yeah, I don't have a historical quote to throw back at you there. But I would say that I think that you really have to look at where Anaheim is in their window, right? Like this has been talked about, you know, at nauseam, but like you're not getting, with those four picks, it's very unlikely you're going to get another Carlson, right? And can you trade them for someone? Maybe. But I think the league's catching up to those mid to late, mid-to-late first-round picks

aren't as valuable as maybe historically thought of. So if they were at a different spot in their window where they had other superstars and this was going to kind of blow up their salary structure and maybe they could reload and add some some immediate help to keep pushing, maybe. But where they are right now, like not having Leo Carlson having four first round picks, like you're setting the rebuild back, you know, another few several years. And when you're kind of emerging from the darkness of, you know, low attendance, low viewership in that market, not making the playoffs. I mean, there's finally some excitement.

You made the playoffs. You went to the second round. I think you add all that combined, you know, yes, would you like to have them at another number than $18 million, of course? But consider you're limited to the alternatives, match or not match. I do think you kind of, you're not happy with it, but matching makes the most sense for where they are in their period. Just to give us a little bit more context for this week, this is the second matched offer

sheet of the week. There's the Barrett-Haten situation with Utah and New Jersey, and now there's this Whopper, which has been the headline maker. And this is the one that everyone has gravitated too. But just as a quick little sort of sidebar, Your Honor, wasn't the Utah, New Jersey offer sheet kind of done the way that you're supposed to do offer sheets in that there are like, I know the ball. Well, there's a failed trade.

So, yeah, part of it. And it's not like there aren't poison pills in the Philadelphia Flyers offer. But this one had, you know, essentially forces Utah to allow Barrett Hayton to walk to free agency. Essentially, the poison bill from Sunny here is, okay, if you want to match, you'll losing this guy next year. Yeah, I think it was definitely more strategic. But Philadelphia did was sort of the brute force. Here's a lot of money overpay your star player. Let's see what you can do.

The New Jersey one. Ed Snyder off. Like, that was an Ed Snyder offer. Exactly. Tell me when to stop putting these bills on the table. Just tell me when to stop. That gets an ex-Snyder offer sheet. The New Jersey one, I think, was similar to the St. Louis one with Eminton, where it was more strategic.

You know, there's something to consider. You know, Emerton was the double. St. Louis-Emerton was the double. New Jersey, yeah, I think that's the other element to it. I think conversely, like, New Jersey was smart to get Gritsy-X-ign. They traded Cotter. I think they were a potential candidate for sort of the double barrel. to offer sheets coming at them.

So I think that's the, yeah, that's the one. I think if Dallas had kept Maverick Bork, that's another one where it would feel a little more strategic. For sure. Where it's not just, here's a lot of money. I agree with you. So what now for Anaheim? We focus a lot on Cutter Goce.

We spend a lot of oxygen this week talking about Pavel Minchikov, which was a reflection to, again, the threat of an offer sheet on the heels of getting an offer sheet for Pat for Beak is feeling like he's getting speedbagged with offer sheets and threats of offer sheets. sheets all week long. But like now what does Anaheim do? You know, I was bringing up the example of Kevin LeBank the other from a few years ago where, you know, 56 point season, we thought he's going to ring the bell and it's a $1 million contract and San Jose's in a cap squeeze. And then

at the appropriate time, a, what was it, four times 16 or four times 17 million dollar contract appears. On the one hand, it's, you know, this porridge is too cold. On the other hand, this porridge is too hot and you could look at it and say cynically, LeBank did him a favor, so Wilson did him a favor back. Could that scenario play itself out here with Cutter Goce? The wild card, as Dave mentioned the second ago, is the agent. And that is Kurt Overhart. I completely, I completely agree with that. I don't see that in the, you know, the best predictor of future performance is past performance. I don't see Kurt Overhart agreeing to a, you know, a handshake deal like that. I think, especially, you know, he's, what Cutter Goochie's been through,

what Overhart's been through with Anaheim. I think you want the contract that you're going to sign without sort of something else in the drawer. So I don't see that for the player or the agent or the team. I don't think anyone's dealing with Anaheim in that way. You know, we've heard since the offer sheet happened, a lot of people coming out, that athletic survey from last year about how agents feel about dealing with Anaheim.

And obviously, I've heard the same thing. That's just not a team, I think, has put themselves in a position to get sort of a handshake deal, whereas some other teams or GMs maybe have earned some of that equity to do something like that. Well, and that becomes, too, like what is the, we always think of, you know, what is the lesson or, you know, the cautionary tale of the Leo Carlson offer sheet if there is. Because it's not like we haven't seen massive offer sheets before. They're an offer sheets have been around for a long time. And then there was something that wasn't even called an offer sheet, which used to be just, signing another player's free agent, and then the NHL decides on compensation,

like Buffalo in Boston, Buffalo grabs Peter and McNabb, and they decide the compensation is Andre Savard. So, like, was that an offer sheet? Technically, that wasn't what it's called, but essentially it was. So offer sheets are nothing new. We'll always talk about Scott Stevens. That was a famous one.

But is there a cautionary tale here for other general managers? Because everybody's watching this, obviously. everybody's talking about this. I would imagine Hart that there were a lot of owners calling their general managers saying have you checked in on the agent for insert young player X here? Like, do you think there's a cautionary tale here, or at least a warning sign for other managers? I think there's two lessons to be learned here. One, lock your players up as soon as you can and not risk it.

Like I think, you know, Eminton certainly was kicking themselves, not getting at least Dylan Holloway signed early, right? Maybe Philip Robberg just didn't want to sign and you can't force someone, but get your players signed up. And you look at Carolina ever since those offer sheets back and forth from Montreal, they sign all their RFAs early, right? Anyone that's eligible for an offer sheet. The one guy that is still sitting out there that didn't sign early is Nekishin because he's not eligible for an offer sheet. So to me, that's the one lesson. The other one, though, I think is valuable is how you treat players on the negotiations when you have all the leverage does come back around.

And whether it's for that player or the agent or just sort of the general sentiment, I do think it comes back around. And there's lots of examples of Anaheim really squeezing players, not just coming out of their entry-level deals, but even on their entry-level deals, squeezing on the signing bonus amount or the games played bonus, right? And I get it. Like, teams have to do its best and try to, you know,

optimize their cap structure. But sometimes, you know, you can win a battle and lose the war. And when there is that sentiment out there that this team is, is going to squeeze our neck every chance they get. So when the table's turn, let's send it back over the net. I mean, you know, that has an impact. And again, not to say that, you know, if teams are very generous on their entry-level deals

and first contracts coming out, that they're going to be immune from offer sheets. But I think the part that sometimes people forget is that an offer sheet requires the player to agree to it. It's not like, Lil Carlson did not have to sign that, right? Barrett Hayden did not have to sign that. The player has to be enticed to do it. You look back at last year and there was reports that Carolina tried to offer sheet Bouchard, right?

Yeah. Would Bouchard really have signed that or had he built enough credibility and goodwill? Keep in mind his former agent is the CEO there, right? And was it really just like, here, there's an offer sheet that we've received. Let's come on, let's get a deal done. And I think that's where you build up the credibility and the equity with your players. And it makes that also built some immunity to offer sheets. You know what the good example there of what you're talking about,

heart is after the entry-level deal Mitch Marner and the Columbus Blue Jackets offer sheet, to which was, you know, a significant bump in pay, obviously. But Marner wanted to be a Maple Leaf, and he wouldn't sign the offer sheet. The other sidebar to this one, which I don't think should be lost. So before the offer sheet was submitted, Patford B. said to your point earlier, which I gave you a pretentious James Maynard Keynes, refutation, that, you know, that we will match in the offer sheet. It wasn't just one team that said, we don't believe you.

It was four. It was a four teams said, that's BS, watch this. And he chose the Philadelphia offer sheet. Is there anything in there that you could drill or pull out of? Like four teams said, we don't believe you. Now, today, teams believe them. other teams believe them. But at the time, there was four teams that said,

pshh, go kick rocks. Well, I think also we should keep in mind with Minchikov. Like, he did receive offer sheet interest as well, right? And then that leveraged that deal that he got, which I don't think he's getting that deal if Carlson hadn't signed an offer sheet, right? And it kind of emboldened people. So, yes, sure, Verriq has added that credibility

that if he said he's going to match, he's going to match. But I don't think that would stop teams now, especially with their cap situation from going back at them again if there's a player in the future. So again, it's not just one action that leads to where we got to or we'll lead to the next step. What happens now, because you follow this to the dollar, what happens now with Anaheim? Our previous conversation about Cutter Goce, I don't think he's interested in taking the Kevin LeBank, Michael Curran discount here, for one year to do the GM they love so much a solid um what happens with anaheim like do bodies have to be thrown over the side of the deck here and if you're pat verbiq to stick it back to

the philadelphia flyers do you give away players of the pittsburgh penguins interesting um well they have we have them with nine million of space but that includes you know a third goalie like wusswa for 1.1 million um you know and and maybe you go a little leaner so let's just say you can get that up to 10 or 11 million. I think at this point, especially if he signs for more than a year or two, Cutter, Goce is getting more than that, right? So I do think, to your point, there's some bodies going overboard and I think you just have to look at some obvious candidates, like a Colon at 6.25, Vitano 4.6, Crider, 6.5. Yeah, I think there's going to need to get Goce signed. There's going to need to be some movement. Now, the question is,

is that Anaheim learned from this, or are they going to have complete leverage with Goce, right? like he can't sign an offer sheet. Are they going to do what they would normally do and squeeze and squeeze and squeeze and squeeze and push him to the point where he's either going to sign a deal that he feels is way below market or not play? And we'll see. Could they make it work if they use their kind of usual playbook?

Squeeze him? Yeah, I don't think he would sign for more than a year or two if he's going to be in that number. But they could do that. And then the question would be what would happen on his next deal. And does that leave a poor taste in his mouth? And that's what I've been sort of wondering about here because this puts Cutter Gochi in a really into old Pat Verbeek, too, both of them, in an interesting situation.

Because the reason it got to this point in the first point is, to your previous, how Pat Furbeek has always behaved with younger players. So the question that I've asked Dave Pan Yoder the past couple of days, and I think we've arrived at the same answer we have around the same question with Steve Eiserman. Will he change? Will he learn from this? You know, mistakes will continue until the lesson is learned. and I don't know that I see it. I don't know that I see Pat for Beak changing here, even though everyone around him is saying,

did you learn the lesson here? Yeah, I mean, and you look at it, you could see how we could talk himself into, well, we only have 10 or 11 million of space, so that's what he's going to have to sign for. We have all the leverage. Why should we change or learn, right? So you could see the path for him to talk himself into,

you know, repeating that type of, you know, approach to a player. Okay. Anything of, I'll exit with this one, Kevin Kerr standing by. Is there anything that you want to sort of empty the tank about with this entire situation, the last six days, anything that perhaps you think people are missing, something you think that's important that hasn't been covered? You want to put a flashlight or a spotlight on something? The floor is yours.

Well, I think in talking to agents, there's a big belief that there's still another offer sheet coming or at least a threat of one, right? And again, we could say Kandre Miller and Minchikov, weren't offer sheets, but those contracts were driven by offer sheets. And so, I mean, it's a small list now because the players that filed for arbitration are no longer offer sheet eligible. But I look at Adam Fantilli, right? That's a flashing light to me that if they don't get a deal done here,

and now you've got a pretty close comp at $18 million, that's a risk. So that, you know, that would be one right there. Don Wadell needs more headaches this summer. Even someone like a Simon Edvenson in Detroit, you mentioned. That's the one I wonder about. just can't get, they can't get there on a deal. They have lots of caps space, but so did Anaheim, right? And so maybe that's one where he's saying, you don't want to give me the contract,

you know, someone else will. Fascinating times. This must be like Christmas morning for you. Like, this is like. Well, it's, it's, usually it's Christmas morning on free agency. Now we got like Christmas week or Christmas month. It's great that it's extending. Yeah.

It's good. I love the chess team of the offer sheets, the arbitration, you know, I love that part. It's great. And, uh, and the, the drama of it. too. Like this is finally the, are we allowed to say the NHL has an entertaining off season now? Like that's where we're at here. Like, when. Yeah, considering we had a pretty weak for agent class.

Yeah, exactly. They made up for it. But we still need some more moves. We do. We do. But we're a long way away from saying, oh, man, this summer is going to be boring. It's been the best summer we've seen. Fantastic.

I know there to document all of it. Hart, thanks as always for stopping by. Thank you. Hart Levine is the conceptual genius behind Apocoppedia where you should visit one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten times daily as things continue to change. Okay, so from the Anaheim point of view to the Philadelphia Flyers point of view, we go to our friend Kevin Kerr's, covers the Philadelphia Flyers for the athletic. And I'll open with the same question.

I've asked everybody today, was this the terminal point all along that Anaheim was going to match? I think that's probably what the Flyers figured, even though they took this big swing. In fact, you know, when I was checking around yesterday, somebody did tell me that they were leading towards thinking that Anaheim was going to match, right? Yeah. You just look at the player. He's too important to that team. But it still stings, right?

If you're the flyers, you're still disappointed. I mean, you know, Danny Breyer has done, I think, a very good job setting the table with this order, and resetting the table maybe with this organization. He's cleared out cap space. He signed some young players to long-term manageable deals. You know, he's restocked the system in terms of the prospects. And, you know, I think he's got the right coach in place in Rick Tocket. We saw what Tocket did with this most recent team.

So I think a lot of those pieces are there. And if you all of a sudden put Leo Carlson onto that roster, you know, you would have, to me, the path would be pretty clear to becoming a Stanley Cup contender, not right away, but in a couple years as these. as what is a solid group of young players would continue to progress. So, you know, that's still the huge hole at this lineup, at the top of this lineup, that I don't know how they're going to fill it, but, you know, we sure know now that they're not going to stop at anything to try and find a player like that. No, we are expecting Dan to be able to speak at some point today about all of this, true or false? Yeah, I asked yesterday, and I was told they were going to address it at some point after

the decision came down. Now, I don't know, you know, I can tell you yesterday, the flyers had no idea which way the ducks were even leaning. I don't, I'm not sure Pat Verbeek really communicated at all with them. So, you know, they might have seen the tweet just like we all did, right? So they might be responding accordingly and getting their, their ducks in a row now. But we are going to hear from Riaire at some point. If it doesn't happen today, I would expect it will happen tomorrow. You know, part of it, too, and I was sort of framing this to Dave Panjota before you came on as, you know, if you get Leo Carlson, if, if Anaheim doesn't match, are you all of

a sudden the dog that caught the car? And what now? Like, I think we've all looked at the salary cap commits and, you know, what could be next for Ziegress and driesdale filing for arbitration, et cetera. if the dog catches the car in Philadelphia with Leo Carlson, what happens? How do you mean that? I guess what do you?

Because I'm with you. I think it was a long shot that they were going to get Leo Carlson. But hey man, you took a swing. And Danny Breyer and Keith Jones are going to be heroes in Philadelphia because of it, even if they didn't get him and they didn't get Leo Carlson. But in the off chance that they did, they have this player at a whopper of a contract, 18 million dollars. Like essentially, what's the cascade from that? Like how many players do they, how many contracts, how many players did they have to let go of? Where do they carve out? How do they

accommodate getting an $18 million superstar? Well, you know, I think that's all along, if you look at the moves Briehers made and the players he signed in the contracts he signed players to, you know, they, they were doing that, I think, with this offseason and, mind. Obviously, like so many other teams, they saw the free agency class dry up, and so they had to pivot to Carlson. But I think, you know, they saw the rising salary cap. You've got Owen Tippett at a manageable number. He should be a 30 goal score. Travis Kineckney is not breaking the bank. He's a 30 goal score. You've got Tyson Forster, they locked up right before this offer sheet. You know, we'll see how he progresses, but he's, you know, what, 7.1 million, I think, now for the next nine years.

you know, Cam York is, is it a reasonable number. Travis Sandheim was signed before Breyer got here, but that's a reasonable number. So that's why this made sense, I think, to them is that they could, they could overpay for a guy like Leo Carlson because in their own salary structure, he would have fit, you know, and it's such an important piece that you think to yourself, I think if you're Danny Breyer, you know, yeah, we're overpaying for this guy, but all the other guys around them, all these young players that we have locked up, are at reasonable numbers.

And as the salary cap continues to go up, that $18 million will obviously look better and better as the years go by. So, you know, obviously it would have been a risk because Carlson still hasn't reached his full potential. And maybe he doesn't, right? We can't predict the future. And maybe in two years, that contract ends up looking terrible. But within this team and within this salary cap structure, it wouldn't have been a problem this season. You know, they would have had to probably deal Rasmus Ristelainen or Nick Seeler. and maybe you would have had to make a couple other moves on the periphery,

but it certainly would not have completely blown their whole structure out of the water just because of the work Breyer has done to this point. So then here becomes one of the questions that I think, you know, many are wondering about. Let me try to frame it this way. Did the Leo Carlson offer sheet just make Porter Martone very rich? Yeah, you have to wonder that, right? Right? Yeah, I mean, he's, you know, he's already the odds-on favorite to win the Calder Trophy next year.

Yeah. You would think that's something that Pierre is going to want to get ahead of. If Matt Veemichkoff comes back and has a great third year after taking a step backwards last season, you know, he's a guy they're going to have to extend next season. So you do wonder if that's going to be a problem, you know, but that's going to be a problem for a lot of general managers, right? You can go right down the list of players that you would think are going to get locked up now our general managers are going to try to lock them up early. But, you know, that's, I think, another part of what Breyer has done is when you look at the

players that he signed, so many of the long-term contracts, he does have wiggle room to move these guys, right? Owen Tippett signed long term, but he's only got a 10-team, no trade list. Christian DeVorex contract is five years, but it's only a full, no-move clause for the first two. Really, Kine is the only one who's locked up long-term. term, I think it's another four or five years. He has a full no move clause. But just about everybody on this roster, Breyer's left himself some flexibility to move players out if he has to. And he's not going to be in a rush to trade Owen Tippett, but if, you know, Martone, as you

mentioned, somehow now is worth 15 million a year, maybe you have to. But again, he's left himself flexibility, I think, to be able to react to, you know, some of these market fluctuate that he started, I guess, ironically. Yeah, it's, this one, this one tracks back to you, Danny. Yeah. So maybe I should have opened with this, because this part to me is a point that I've been trying to beat home to people for a long time now. We've heard managers over the years, Kevin, you've heard so many of them. Just like, offer sheets don't work.

I'm not submitting them. All it does is at flate prices for everybody. So, you know, after I'm done my business and arbitration's done, it's gone fishing. I'm not interested in offer sheets. And I always say to myself, like, why would you even admit that to your fan base to say that I'm not going to try to use every single tool available

to improve my team? Now there's a new breed of general managers that are using all of the hammers and screwdrivers in the toolbox. And we're seeing this now consistently. How is Danny Breyer being received in Philadelphia? How is Keith Jones being received in Philadelphia right now? Because even though they didn't get the player, the fans all watch them,

take a swing. And I think that, like you, like anybody who's covered the game or has followed the game for a long time, sees a real element of Ed Snyder in this one. Like, I saw the numbers and I went, I remember Ed Snyder saying after the Bruins won the Stanley Cup in 2011, where's my Tim Thomas? And then $60 million appeared for Ilya Brazgalov. Like, there's an element of Ed's, this is like an Ed Snyder offer sheet. Yeah, and I think the fans here have been waiting for that sort of approach. But I think also they, you know, You have to be encouraged that Carlson chose the flyers, even though it didn't work out. Yeah.

LeBron reported that seven teams reached out, four teams made formal offers, and he selected here. So I think that means something. I think, you know, if you're a player that might be looking for a new home and you might, you know, let's just say hypothetically you're Dylan Larkin and you're looking for another team. He might say, gee, why did Leo Carlson think Philadelphia was a right place for him long term? You know, obviously the money is a factor. But I think, you know, I think Danny definitely earned some, some cachet in this market with the fan base by taking that kind of move. And you said it, it's a, it's a, it's a neither kind of move, right?

Where everybody else be damned, we're going to try to improve this team. And I don't care if people get pissed off about it. So I think, you know, sometimes I think you have to separate the online fans from the fans that are more realistic. because there's a lot of, there's so much noise with the online group here. I think there's reasons for that. I don't really feel like getting into. But I think when you see that the interest that was around this team after Martone showed up in March, after that late playoff push, beating Sidney Crosby and the Penguins in the first round,

and then, you know, getting swept by Carolina and then leaving the yice to a standing ovation after a four-game sweep. I think most fans that, hadn't paid attention to the Flyers for a long time, you know, distracted by the Eagles winning Super Bowl, the Phillies making deep playoff runs and the Sixers being good for most of that time. I think they've sort of put themselves back on the map a little bit. Now, you know, it'll be interesting to see how it goes this year because, you know, naturally when you see a team make the playoffs and win around, you think, all right, well, they should be even better next year.

And Danny's sort of cautioned against that publicly, and he even said, before all Carlson stuff happened that we might take a step backwards next year. I thought that was a little bit of an odd comment. Because I think now, you know, fans are going to be anxious to see, well, what's the next move? This one didn't work out. What's he going to do now? Yeah. And I think the element of it's an element of uncertainty, but I think there's an element of uncertainty, but I think there's an element of excitement too.

Just for the fans to see that the general manager is willing to, and the organization as a whole, Dan Hilford to Keith Jones are going to go to these sorts of lengths to try to make this team better. I can see everybody in ticket sales when Danny says that saying, no, no, no, stop. Stop, let's get our group sales in here first. And then we'll start talking about maybe we'll take us the other thing too in all of this. And how many times have we sat here and talked about the Philadelphia Flyers and said, okay, this guy is the answer. No, it's going to be that guy.

No, it's going to be Roman Chuchmatic. No, it's going to be Robert Esch. No, it's going to be. I just mentioned Leah Brze Galloff. What a season for Dan Vlodar. Hart trophy votes. I've stopped saying, is he the answer? Is he the guy?

Because we've been false started on Philly goaltenders going back to Hextall and previous to him, the late Pellie Lindberg. But does it feel like legit here with Dan Vlodar? Yes, it does. You know, you're always a little reluctant to project goaltenders, right? Just because it's so volatile. I mean, you know, I just go back to my own experience. in San Jose, Martin Jones had, you know, Doug,

Doug Wilson makes the big trade, brings in Martin Jones. He has a great first year. They lock him up. And then it was downhill pretty quickly for Martin Jones after that. So, you know, and I'm not saying Dan Vlodar is the next Martin Jones. I do have more faith in Vlodar just because, you know, I think he's not only just a solid goaltender, but I think he's almost like in the playoffs, he was almost like their conscience throughout the whole run.

You know, he led in a couple of weeks. weird goals and he was downplaying it. He's like, guys, what are you talking about? We're fine. Everything's going to be fine. And Rick Tocke would talk about him coming to the bench and firing the team up when they were dragging a little bit and everybody's saying how that's so unique for a goaltender to do that.

But, you know, Vladar, I think he's, I do have faith that he's going to be able to, maybe not, you know, be a superstar in this league, but certainly playing. under Rick Tocket's system with the defense in front of him, the fact that he's fit in so well off the ice, that everyone just loves and respects this guy. I mean, that's not a, it sounds cliche, but that's a real thing, I think, with Vladar and his teammates.

I mean, there's a real bond there. So, you know, again, like, you worry a little bit about giving a goalie that, a five-year extension when he's really just been a starter for one year. Yeah. But there's no doubt that Breyer thinks he's the guy. And, you know, I think, too, it should be said, you know, you bring in Joseph Wall, he'll have a little bit, he should have a little bit more reliable backup goaltender as a tandem moving forward.

So maybe that takes a little bit of pressure off them. The Flyers do have some goalie prospects in the system. They just drafted two. They've got two. They took in the 2024 draft, I think it was, that are developing. They just took two checks. They love Ladar so much. They just took two checks.

We're going, I'll check goalies now. Yeah. I think Vladar said somewhere he was going to have him over for dinner at his place. That's awesome. Yeah. So, you know, you've got Vladar. You've got Joseph Wall for two years. And I think organizationally, the hope is that you have probably somebody else come along in, you know, three or four years.

Right. As a reliable guy, too. This has been great. And it's been great having you on all season long. And following this, like the past six days have been catnip for hockey fans. I can only, like I've got a bunch of friends of mine that are all Philadelphia Flyers fans who text me three or four times a day. How does it feel today? Are they going to match?

Are they not going to match? Like, this has been a wild time. And it does. Like I'll sign off with you the same way that I signed off with Hart Levine. Like, is this not the most interesting and exciting off season we've ever seen in the NHL? And all we could think about when. McDavid re-signed and Caprizov and Eichel and everybody, Kyle Connor, we say, well, next summer is going to be a dud.

It's been the best off-season, and it's not even close to being done yet. It's been the most exciting off-season we've ever seen. Yeah, and it was kind of dull in Philadelphia before this offer sheet, right? You know, you just had Joseph Wall and Nolichari, and then Breyer throws this firebomb into everything. And, you know, I know a lot of people think, is he all of a sudden going to now pivot towards Fantilla or Bardard. And I don't quite see that happening. I think, you know, he's got a, there's a, the way it was put to me was there's a lot

of planning and though there's a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes. I mean, the Carlson offers you to me to as much about circumstances as it was about the player. Don't disagree. Kevin, this has been great, as it always is. Thanks so much for being on the beat and being available. Really appreciate it. You got it, buddy.

Good to talk to you, Jeff. There is, Kevin Kerr's the Excellence, a reporter for the Philadelphia. flyers with the with the athletic um and it is a fascinating time with the the flyers and i think that he's right like people will turn now to daniel brier keith jones dan hilford and say okay what's next but either way in that marketplace those gentlemen are heroes because they took the massive swing and tried to get leo carlson now this has been leo carlson week everywhere including on this program so we're bringing back today. This is like we're bringing back and we're playing the hits from all the people that have really shared expertise and a knowledge of either offer

sheets or this situation specifically and what we can pull out of it, what we can learn from it, what we can glean about it. And Steve Worrier is the former assistant general manager of the Florida Panthers who was with us a couple of days ago and is back once again. First of all, thanks so much for showing up here at the last minute. I'm sure you've got a million the thing is going on. But what did you, first of all, it's a day before we expected it, Steve, but what did you pull out of the,

the Anaheim Ducks matching the Carlson offer sheet? Yeah, I mean, it's like we talked about, I think that's like no surprise that they matched. We're stuck either way. Can't go as a player like that. And, you know, whether or not they keep them or maybe they move them down the line, it seems like the right move.

They've got some cat maneuvering. I think Hart probably would. went over pretty cleanly with you that they'll have to get through and it might cost them a little bit more at the end of the day to keep them and preserve what they need to do with you know guys they have coming up like Seneca and Goce. Notwithstanding the comment about, you know, intelligently preserving space in their press release. But yeah, no surprise in the decision itself. How did, let me just pause on that because I think we all, we're all cynical.

We all paused on that and went, hmm, like in corporate speak, that's a shot. Like here's a statement, you know, Pat has. has intelligently left enough cap space to give us the ability to retain Leo. I think we all kind of looked at that and went, ooh, I'm not sure that's intended as a compliment here. Because I don't think the Samueli's intended for the upper limit of the salary cap to be a magnet. How did you greet this statement from the Ducks ownership? That's some good PR work.

That's why you shouldn't just use chat GPT, right? Yeah. No, seriously. You ought to always project confidence, even, when you're in trouble. It's like that old SNL bit. I know it's Politics Day on your show it sounds like. But remember the old week and update a bit about generalism O'Franco is still alive.

Yes. I'm old enough to remember. I go back to the Mr. Bill days with SNL. Don't worry. Yeah, I get the reference. Okay, so then here becomes the question then. So you brought up some great points here the other day. And specifically the point about July 2nd, 2027, as being.

being the next leverage point for the Anaheim Ducks here. For those that weren't with us on that day for that show, can you go over why that is such a crucial day now that Leo Carlson is back with the Anaheim Ducks? Sure. So the quick rewind is that this offer sheet is front-loaded, which means there's a massive signing bonus, like today-ish, of 18 or 19 million cash.

And then there's another one on the first day of the 2027, 28-year of another 18 million. or so what does that mean? Two things, right? Henry Samuel has to cut two very big checks. But number two, after he cuts that second check on or about July 2nd, 2027, Leo Carlson's base salary for that league year drops to $1 million. And his average cash remaining over the final four years drops to like 12.5 million,

which is super manageable. And so what we talked about, and this may or may not happen, and it probably won't because Leo is a great player and they may want to keep them and put water into the bridge. But if not, you know, if Anaheim chooses to move him, the time to do it would be after paying that second bonus where he's a $1 million cash player and he has no trade protection. He can be traded at will by Anaheim, you know, anytime that season or until the final year. And we'll be talked about a few days ago was if Philly wanted to insert sort of a little bit

more of a poison pill on the offer sheet, they might have considered shifting that year to 2027-28 league year signing bonus to the day after the trade deadline in 2027-28 because if so, that would handcuff Anaheim, one, to not trade them with a reduced cash hit into at least the second year deadline. And if they didn't, if they tried to move them before, well, then an acquirer would have to eat that 18 million extra, which would be a real tough pill to swallow, whereas, you know, maybe Anaheim bites a bullet anyway just to sort of move on from the player at that point. Um, the nature of the, uh, outside of that one issue, you know, I, I looked at the flyers,

I looked at the Philadelphia Flyers, uh, offer sheet as we all did. And the compensation is the four first rounders. And we said, well, you know what? That's, that seems like a lot. But you get a play in a little like Leo Carlson, you're going to, how you're going to be up higher in the metropolitan division, et cetera. And you're already a team that's on the grow. So those four first round picks are not going to be top five. They're not going to be top 10. They're going to, they're going to be cheaper picks down the road. And the other thing, which other people have pointed out too, is that they already have a first round draft pick from the Toronto Maple Leafs.

So if you squint, you can say, well, from Philly's point of view, the compensation is really only three first round draft picks because we have another first round draft pick from the Toronto Maple Leafs. Would you, as an AGM or GM, look at that and squint at it and say, you know what, we can make it only feel like three first rounders? A little bit of a sunk cost argument. reminds me of like when I started in Florida, there was a book, and I don't remember who made it in the front office, but it was like the oral history of all our moves and like post hoc rationalization. Minnesota. Minnesota. Minnesota. Yeah. It was maybe. Like so I make it up. It was like, you know, we traded Pavle Boree for an eighth round pick. But that eighth round pick was swapped three more times and then used for Sasha Barkov. So that Bury trade was good. And it's like, yeah, it's a little tricky. You know, you can you can make decisions and be like, we have a service.

of draft picks, we can act accordingly. But to sort of, you know, I think you're sure, in a way, look at each move in a vacuum and say, you know, is there a positive, expected value from this particular transaction? I do think teams get into trouble. They think they're creating a position of surplus. I'm like, oh, we have so much cap space because we did X, Y. Let's throw a little bit more on this player.

That's always a dangerous move. If we're like, oh, I just hit it. Let's just play a little black shock on the way out. And then by the time you leave, you're like, I'm not in that great position anymore. I was having a conversation with Craig Woshensky from ESPN the other day, and we were talking about the new style of manager in the NHL. One of the things that I think we've looked at right now, whether it's Steve Eisenman or Pat Verbeek, the old-school ways of running an NHL team are really getting exposed here.

Like the flashlight is on and everybody sees what it's all about, and that's not the way you can run teams here or handle people, et cetera. Like there's a new breed of general manager in the NHL. When you look at how now toolboxes are being used fully, what's the next sort of, what's the cascade from a manager's point of view? I've looked at a lot of this and said one of the common denominators is not so much did I play left wing for four years in Swift Current? It's did I go to law school? Like, how do you look at, like, who are going to be the next successful managers in the NHL?

Yeah, I mean, I thought this was going to happen a long time ago, and maybe it still won't happen for a long time. It's a good point. Like, the game gets more complex. The CBA, when I first came in and made in working with a lot of lawyers and guys like Tomlin and Lauren Skilman come in into rules that in the past they weren't in as much. You know, having said that, there's people with, like, diverse and random walks in life who become, like, really good critical thinkers who can be great in these rules. So you never know, you never know sort of who might come in and be able to

punch above their expected weight, you know, but having said that, you know, we always say it's a Codiacat League and with both teams having successes, like a Carolina, but also making blunders like some teams might, maybe without, you know, folks like how you described in rules like that, you know, you think there will be more change and, you know, maybe it will just happen as a function of, you know, more ownership, more private equity. That sort of makes that next wave come through. What do you think happens next?

I mean, I think a lot of us look at Adam Fantilli, like Don Waddell needs more headaches this summer. I think a lot of us, maybe not as much. Look at Kyle Davidson on the Chicago Blackhawks with Connor Bardard, who's now, have you mentioned it. I mean, it would have been a headline story had all this stuff not happened today. It's out for four months after surgery on his right shoulder after that unfortunate incident in Vancouver.

What do you think is next as far as, you know, maybe, and listen, I don't think that it'll be Philadelphia, but I don't think it would be, we would be surprised if someone wasn't out there saying, all right, it's our moment to pounce here on Adam Fantilli. You know, I've wondered about Seattle. The general manager went to Michigan. Maddie Beneers went to Michigan. They just brought in Mackie Samuoskevich. He went to Michigan. Adam Fantilli went to, like, I don't think that it would surprise anybody if that was a play for Seattle. But you've sat in these chairs.

It's like, what do you expect now? Yeah, I think that's right. Like, I think Fantoli will have a target just because Columbus might not be on the most solid footing of some of these other orgs in terms of some of the turmoil you mentioned. The other one I'd wonder about would be Edvinson. And the fun one with Detroit is like, not only is Stevie Y facing that storm right now with Dylan Larkin, but Edvinson, Lucas Raymond, and Larkin, I believe all share the Pat Brisson, J.P. Perry, agency. and so that's just a little tidbit that might make things more interesting there.

I know not every agent has Dan Milstein being so public about whether they do or don't solicit offer sheets from clubs for their players. But it wouldn't be shocking. You know, Evanston's quality elicited one. And like as time goes on

and these guys remain unsigned, it becomes more likely. So yeah, I don't know if Philly's the team that goes for Fant, you know, that goes for Fantilia. It only comes down to like, do they value? you've been in sort of the same class as Leo,

and they might or they might not, but I wouldn't be surprised if that offer sheet came down for him and just to your point a second ago, like, you know, the more we have progressive innovative managers, the more we're going to see moves like that's going forward. To the other offer sheet, let's close on this one. By the way, is there anything about the Leo Carlson offer sheet that you want to, you know, empty the tank about?

Anything that you think people have missed, the specific areas you think are critical or important for us to pay attention to now that this story is at least done temporarily? I think we've covered it well. I think the takeaway is just that every single lever matters and there's so much esoteric maneuverability inside the CBA and even though this league has been around for a long time, there's 32 teams and there's been thousands of contracts,

there's always little edges that can be gained and little ways to maybe make an offer sheet a little tougher or a contract a little more manageable. And that's a neat takeaway. I think that's all sort of that we haven't covered on that. Okay. To the other offer sheet then quickly. What do you think is next for Sunny Mehta? Like he puts the offer sheet in, signs Barrett Hayton to the offer sheet, second round draft pick is a compensation.

Utah matches. I get it. It, you know, it keeps him there until the T.G. Ginlis and the Caleb Dain-YAs are ready, et cetera. But if you're Sunny Mehta right now, right now he's going through a process of improving this team and also sort of undoing a sort of Gordian knot that the previous regime kind of had this team tied up in. What do you think Sunny Mehta does next here in New Jersey? I think he has options, which is the big win for him, right?

Like he was able to get out from the Marksum contract without having to open up that second buyout window and buying him out. He signed Ritsch to an easily manageable number on a bridge. You know, he brought in some draft picks for Simone Nemich without communication. committing cap space there, which I think is a smart move. And so now, like, the best thing I'd say about Sunny's position is, like, who knows? But he has options. He has cap space.

He has picks. And, you know, I don't know where he'll go with it. But, like, he uses his, you know, he's a poker player. He's got a lot of outs. And I bet he uses something. Dad, look what I got for me. He's still in. Does your daughter want to weigh in on the offer sheet with Leo Carl?

Sophie, what should New Jersey do? What should New Jersey do? How did Jeff? I get that reaction often when I ask my goofy questions. You're just humoring me. Number one job is always dad. Go do it, Steve. It's always a pleasure, man.

We'll catch up soon. That was great. Thanks, Jeff. Steve's awesome. Former assistant general manager with the Florida Panthers and still very much in tune with things. And I always appreciate when Steve comes on because I know one day there's going to be a day where he can't. because he's been hired by an NHL team. So every time you see Steve appearing somewhere,

make sure you tune in, whether it's here or in other areas and different shows, because there's going to come a day where an NHL team scoops them up, comma, again. Okay, so that was an hour and 10 of the Leo Carlson offer sheet there, Zach. Anything and match, if you're just joining us, the Anaheim Ducks of Match.

Okay, everybody knows. Anything spicy in your chili on this one? It's been a lot. It's one topic, but it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, a victory has a thousand fathers. Um, this one topic has a number of different tributaries it goes out to. Okay. So you guys touched on what next steps are here.

And a lot of it, we talked about what happens with Anaheim and who play, who might have to go and what casualties might come in Anaheim here. Yeah. I got one question. And I, I don't think you're going to have the answer today. I don't think anyone's going to have the answer today. That's great. Okay, you move off of a couple guys, you free up some cap space.

He signed Cutter Gautier. Who the hell is playing defense for the Anaheim Ducks next year? I think Pat Verbeek's next conversation is with Leo Carlson, and he asks him if any of his buddies know how to play defense back home. Do any of your friends from Sweden have any interest in playing the NHL? on ELECs. How to play defense? Because we kind of got some spots.

Like, look, Tristan Leno is going to be a full-timer there. You know, we talked to some Mike Babcock Jr. yesterday on the program. I really likes the Ensoldberg. I don't know that he's ready next year, but probably somewhere down the road. But I do share the same concern that you and probably Joel Quinville shares, which is who's our defense. who's on our back end this year? I know.

Again, this goes back to the loss of control over your cap. And this is what happens when you lose control over your cap. It's great that you got the player and we all read the Samuel E note, got it, cool. Great that you locked up Carlson. Like this guy and we saw him in the playoffs. Man against Edmondson, if it wasn't, like his line just like caved everybody in. And if it wasn't Carlson's line out there, Anaheim, was getting caved in.

That was the line. He was the player. I understand it. I get it. But to the cliche that we used earlier on this week, what you gain on the roundabout, you lose on the swings. They've gained the player,

kept the player, but what they've lost is the blue line. Yeah. That's my biggest concern. And I think, you know, one of the things that you look at with the five-year contract here with Carlson

is that I don't think it's fair to say they have to be a Stanley Cup favorite, you know, a team that's contending to win the Stanley Cup necessarily as a team that's a top projected team every single year of the five years, but you don't want to take a massive step back when you've just accumulated, I should say, because I don't think they chose to do this. I think this in some ways fell upon them, the Carlson contract, and you have that, like, you want to be competitive while you've got it. And then, you know, we talked about Goti, but,

Seneca's up after that. And I know there's a lot of prospects in the line, but you don't want to rush those guys in. So it's my biggest question out of it. I think it was the right play. And Steve talked about it earlier in the weekend and kind of alluded to it here today too and touched on it a little bit is there's opportunity for control to come back.

There is for the ducks on this Carlson deal. But there's still some big questions that I have. It's $39 million dollar weight. Bingo. Exactly. You want control. It's going to cost you $39 million. Do you want it?

Huh? He intelligently left that space. He intelligently left that space. Yes. It would be interesting if Simon Edvinson got offer sheeted, like a massive one. So it would be both Pat Forbeek and Steve Viserman, the two that we've sort of held up as here's what happens when things get away from you. Like,

and the old style of running your team really has to change. Like, it's not, it's not just like the lesson of, of managers, too. I think a lot of, like I mentioned,

like a lot of owners this past six days, I've called their managers and asked like, hey, when's the last time he checked in with this guy's representation? When's the last time you called this guy's agent? Like, for sure. Where is he at?

Is he happy? We're still all cool. You want those ugly offer sheets, do you? Like, oh, it's gross. Like, we can do something before this. I guess the point. But owners are watching this, too. Right?

Like, owners are watching, like, how managers behave and how they run their teams. And so, even though I mentioned to Panyoda yesterday, I think we talked about this yesterday, could you see Eisman or Verbeek changing? And I think our answer is collectively, no. I really do wonder if they, they're not. stupid right like they're not dumb people like they have to look at this and say you know what i i do need to evolve as a manager and i hope that someone asks this question of verbeek um when he speaks publicly like what has this taught you does this does this force you now to change how you do

business i'd be really curious what the answer to that is from pat for beek and i hope that that question is asked because that would be my first one what's your lesson and will you change? Unless it's going to be like, well, you know, I thought about it, but then I decided, no, everyone else is stupid. Yeah.

The other thing, too, here on this, and I was just looking for some tweets that we could bring up of what people are around the NHL are saying, what do you got? And one here that I wanted to bring up, as our friend, Shana Goldman, put out. Who? Just, she followed up on an original tweet,

not necessarily relevant to what I wanted to show, but said, also hope the fact that both the Hayton and Carlson offer sheets was were matched doesn't stop GMs from taking this route like if you're philly it didn't work out this time but you just completely screwed up an opponent's cap outlook and that could help in the future and i share the same sentiment as shana and i'm sure you do here as well jeff and it's like even if you don't get to the offer sheet point the threat of which you know which we saw with tulski and whether it was bouchard or miller and they ended up acquiring miller like they allow for a further

conversation to be had, which allows the league to be a little bit more fluid. Here is, I'm glad that she had tweeted this because this isn't necessarily, because look, Philadelphia and Anaheim are different conferences. Okay. Like, it would be more profound, I think, if it was someone from the Pittsburgh Penguins that the Philadelphia Flyers offer sheeted. And because like then, like a direct rival, you're screwing up their cap. You know who the Flyers did a solid for? Edmonton. Vegas and take your pick

anybody else in that division in the Pacific that's who they did the solid for you could argue San Jose as they rise like they did a solid for for a few teams here like I think Danny Breyer just got on Stan Bowman's Christmas card list yeah

I think on Kelly McCrimmon is sending Danny Breer a big fat thank you really pretty I appreciate you doing that to Pat and the Anaheim Ducks there and maybe Mike Greer say, hey, Danny. Thanks, pal. I really appreciate that one.

That's the sidebar to all this is that that's who they've done a solid for. Yeah, because there's also a cascading effect too, right? Like it's not just Carlson who got $18 million here and jams up. In a vacuum, it's the one contract. Yeah, it's huge. It's a huge A.A.V. It's a huge A.A.V. hit against the Anaheim ducks. But it forced then the Minchikov deal, which.

there's I would I would say there's zero percent chance but not not even a tiny percent a zero percent thought that he was going to be giving Minchikov seven point and I'm blanking on the rest of the number but seven point two seven point two thank you yeah seven point two at this year's at this year's uh you know free agency period RFA here for Minchikov but I think zero percent he thought that and then all of a sudden the Carlson comes in and he goes oh my god Because then that means the Minchikov ones come in a little bit more aggressive. And you can back them in a corner. It also means Goetia's deal becomes a little bit more difficult for Verbeek to manage.

And now all those other GMs, as you just pointed out, they're all going, thank you Philly. You started this. Yeah, 100%. And they're also saying, let's make sure we lock up our kids. Let's make sure we get all of our young players locked up here because we don't want to be Pat for Beek. and we don't want to go to our owner and say, we can get out of this for a tidy $39 million. It's only going to cost you $39 million.

But it's all in the system. It's all still captured in the system. I don't think we budgeted to be a cap team this year, Pat. What's done is done, Henry. I deal with today. What are you going to do? What do you want me to do? Come on.

All right. Well, that's good stuff. By the way, Steve just retweeted the link. Come for the offer sheet analysis. Stay for a cameo of an over-excited five-year-old who just found a new toy. That's awesome. She was the star of the show today, Steve's daughter. Yes.

Hands down. Can I ask you one thing here? I want to ask you while I'm still here because I'm off tomorrow. Oh, you got, I'm allowed to say what you're doing this weekend? Yeah, you can say. Bachelor weekend. And bad decision. Is it really?

Oh, Bad decision weekend coming up. A lot of apologizing on the horizon for you. Bad decision weekend coming up for Philly. No, no, none of that. Practice apologizing now. We got some golf and some lawn drinking games and a concert we're going to tomorrow on Saturday as well.

Who are you going to sing? It should be a fun. Tim Hicks. Tim Hicks, you're a country music singer. You know the some stronger beer? I do, yeah. I'm not much of a plucking and grinning kind of guy, but you have fun. Yes.

So there's one thing I want to bring up. It's not a contract thing, an offer sheet thing. It's not really even a question. I just need to know what the hell you think about this. The Stanley Cup engravings were revealed today. The Carolina Hurricanes, they kicked off their Stanley Cup engraving with two four rows of Dundins. I don't even know what to ask you, Jeff, but... Okay.

I get a few thoughts, I guess. Few thoughts on it. Do we have a picture of it, by the way? Do we have a cap of it? I think everybody... Put it this way. If you're watching a show like this or you're listening to a show like this, you know exactly what we're talking about. That's one of the benefits of doing the show.

There's a sort of common ground of understanding and wisdom of what's going on in the world right now. They don't have to spell it out for people or hold their hands. This had nothing. to do with the Hall of Fame. I saw the Hall of Fame getting like a lot of shrapnel about this. The Hall of Fame doesn't have anything to do with which names get

on the Stanley Cup. I spoke with Phil Pritcher this morning from the Hall of Fame. The keeper of the cup, we've all seen him, the white gloves, the great feathers, who by the way is also one of the great hockey historians you will ever meet. And

And he said the first time that they saw the engravings on the Stanley Cup were late yesterday afternoon. Okay, so it's not like the Hall of Fame gets a list and they know who's going to be on. Most years, they don't know who's going on until it's on the Stanley Cup. I'm sure there are a lot of players and people, even in the Carolina Hurricanes organization, who don't like it. I've always joked that the golden rule, the real golden rule is Hugh has the gold makes the rules. Okay, so it's a couple of rows of Dundans there.

I'm just the owner, but the wife and the kids too. Quite literally two full rows. How about the CEO who gets billing, who was just hired in 2024, gets the billing ahead of Eric Tulski. Holy smoke. but that's not what we're talking about. The Dundon issue.

You know what I think? You can do it. You have the right to do it. Players may find it distasteful. Other players who have won the cup and even players who haven't won the cup may find it distasteful and not like it. There's no statute or rule that disallows it.

This was obviously approved by hockey operations. That's where the list goes. So the NHL is fine with this. The one thing that I would say in the future, if you're going to, quote, if you're going to learn something from this, or if you want to, because this is a horrible controversy right now,

and nobody wants to drag children into any kind of discussion about this. Like I saw people like roasting kids. Like, I know that he's put him out there and all that, but I just have a really hard time piling on. I don't think the kids are going to like it when they grow up. Here's what I think. You know what I think should have been done? And I have no problem doing this for the owner.

Instead of putting all the names of the family members that you want on there, would there be as much controversy and you would achieve the exact same thing if you just put on there instead of Tom his wife and his kids you just put the Dundon family yeah if that's what you wrote instead

and maybe that becomes a thing then for all ownership okay the Viola family right maybe that's the way you do it so you don't have all of the individual names Tom Dundon and the Dundon family

family family Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Maybe. I'm just, I'm just, I'm just to bridge that gap because I'm with you.

If you want family members on there, then put the Dundon family. Yep. Are we good? Are we better with that? Yes. Because I am. Yes.

The other thing that it sort of underscores is, teams like to tell fans that this is their team. And I've always sort of snickered out. It's like, this is your team. keep the money, though. This really underscores that it's his team. Yes. Hey, fans, here are your Carolina Hurricanes.

No. It's the Dundans, Carolina Hurricanes. And specifically, name, name, name. Yeah. But just because I don't want the hall, you know how much of a special place that you saw me in the hall. Good Lord, it's embarrassing. Yeah.

Toys are Us. toys of us for Jeffrey I don't want the hall dragged into this one because this has nothing to do with the Hall of Fame this has nothing to do with the engraver this has nothing to do with the

Hockey Hall of Fame it's what was submitted by the Carolina Hurricanes that's what the owner and the Carolina Hurricanes wanted I don't know that all the players are pleased with it though

it's too bad in a way too here because one of the things that hockey does better than pretty much every sport really is the first person to touch the trophy after you win is not the owner. You know, NFL, MLB, NBA, it's the owner who grabs the trophy and then the players get it. In hockey, it's the players who all get it and then management and owners and then all get it after the fact. And this is kind of, in a way, like, overrides it. It doesn't because you still got the moment,

but in a way it's just like, that special thing. It doesn't erase it. Here's why, and I'll take that one step further. Here's why I think the players should have their names first and then everybody else last. And this is true of other sports. When you think of businesses,

there is the owner, there are the employees and there is the product those are the main three things and when it comes to sports and for this program obviously particularly hockey when it comes to hockey

the players are both the employees and the product okay they are two-thirds of the equation ownership employee product players are two-thirds of that

they are the most important ones here through all of it. That's why I think they should have their names first and then everybody else afterwards. Just me. Yep. No, I agree with you. That's also why I don't think that the 50-50 split is right for HRR because the players are both the employees and the product at the same time. Yeah. But that's a union issue.

and don't get me started on the NHL Players Association. Fair enough. Fair enough. That's what I think. What do you think about it? I know it's funny too because we thought tomorrow was going to be Carlson Day. And so a lot of what in my mind, what I thought I was going to be talking about today was the Stanley Cup engraving.

Yeah, I know. Well, same until 32 minutes before the show. Good job, cobbling all that together, by the way, getting everyone on board. That was great. Thank you. No, I'm with you. I don't have too much to add to it other than it's a players.

To me, it's about the players. It's about the guy. How much do we talk about the sacrifices? And, you know, we talk about how courageous these guys are. We should talk more about the cash calls that these owners have to go through. Well, someone please think of the billionaires. And, you know, even in this sport, we go as far And it's not to say they don't in other sports,

But we go as far to talk about the life sacrifices Of the equipment managers and physio teams and stuff Because these people, they travel and they're there until three in the morning, Setting up gear and packing up bags and stuff And they finally get the honor of this. And then they all get bumped down Or people maybe potentially get bumped off. I don't think that was the case here.

I think everyone got on from that standpoint, but they get bumped down because the kids and the wife got on the trophy, and it's kind of like, they shouldn't have been bumped down. That's the thing that just irks me is these people are so important to the every day. And then the players, it speaks for itself, but just even those people who are a part of the day to day should be in higher regard on the trophy at the end. And they got bumped down and they shouldn't have.

I think everybody's on the same page about this one. Again, can you just solve everything from here until whenever if the owner wants his family on? It's just the Dundon family or the Viola family or the Illish family or the MLSC family? I am willing to go out on a limb and say that, A, if that ever happens, if that ever happens, That, uh, the candle this one, Zacharoo. Something about Rogers would be on there. I think there would be a Rogers nod on that if that ever happened. I don't know if that happened in my life.

We shall see. Every, listen, every generation is said and wondered what it will be like in Toronto. Who the hell knows, man. Okay. Uh, we got a lot of guests to thank. Dave Panyota for stopping by the program here, who was excellent. Kevin Kurz,

who stopped by the program, who was excellent. Ditto to Hart Levine. The curator and conceptual genius behind Puckpedia, a partner here at Daily Faceoff. And Steve Warrior and his daughter, his very excited daughter, who, as we found out,

got a new toy, which is always more interesting than me, but many things are, including sorting out your sock drawer, which I encourage you to do now. Zach, you have a great time, killing brain cells. something.

Yeah, shoot. So I won't be here tomorrow and then we're just sort of like finalizing schedule and stuff of the show. You'll be back tomorrow. But it'll be a little bit before people see me again. So I just want to thank everybody who's watched the show a year who supported the people who show up from the sheet to my After Dark and stuff.

So I just wanted to thank everybody for all your support for showing up every day. It's greatly appreciated. Which After Dark, Maple Leafs are Marley's? Either one. One of them won a championship. There was people here from the sheet. So good. Exactly.

I wonder what's on the Calder Cup trophy. I wonder what they listed on that one. But yes, for the least after dark, Marley's after dark people from the sheet showed up to both. So, yeah, so it'll be a little bit before I'm back, but I just wanted to make sure I thanked everybody for that

and all the support this year because it's been a lot of fun. And yeah, I mean, I don't get to do this if it's not for people in the chat showing up and listening to podcasts and stuff. Yeah. And it beats working

for a living. It sure does, and we all appreciate to Zach's point. And we'll be back together in a couple of weeks here. I'm on vacation next week and back the week after, but back tomorrow to who knows what we're talking about tomorrow.

Probably more of the Carlsonoffers. We'll hear from Brieer. We'll probably hear from Verbeek as well. We'll go through all that tomorrow. But you don't have to worry about it. Nope, I will be off. I will be off. I will be on a golf course

during the show tomorrow. where I will be. Just imagine them getting Philly off the golf course with a soup spoon. Yes, potentially be dragged off the course. Yes, be a puddle by the time the show gets the air. Anyhow,

on behalf of, Yes? Happy birthday, Jeff. Oh, you jerk. Yeah, a couple people said it in the chest. They all,

yeah, you get to my age, they all run together. Whoopty do. What do you do? Just, who I share a birthday with Courtney Love, OJ,

and Tom Hanks. Okay. Those are mine. You don't hear you share a birthday with? Yeah, I know, right? I don't, but I know that on my birthday, it's free slurpy day. And I'll leave it at that. Free slurpy day.

I've always went with my dad and got free slurpees. Yes. I don't know who I share it. I really, really wish you could hear my brain right now. I can leave it with that. Thank you, everybody. Thank you, John. I can't talk that.

We'll talk to tomorrow.