The Sheet with Jeff Marek - On the Sheet: Kyle Dubas

Episode Date: September 16, 2025

Jeff sits down with Pittsburgh Penguins President of Hockey Operations and General Manager, Kyle Dubas, for a wide-ranging conversation. They dive into the Penguins’ rookie games, Sidney Crosby’s status in Pittsburgh, the decision to bring back Marc-André Fleury on a PTO, the role of analytics in today’s NHL, and even the story behind the now-famous “two phone photo.”Shout out to our sponsors!👍🏼 Fan Duel: https://www.fanduel.com/👍🏼 Simply Spiked: https://www.simplyspiked.ca/en-CAReach out to [e-mail] to connect with our Sales Team and discuss opportunities to partner with us!If you liked this, check out:🚨 OTT - Coming in Hot Sens | https://www.youtube.com/c/thewallyandmethotshow🚨 TOR - LeafsNation | https://www.youtube.com/@theleafsnation401🚨 EDM - OilersNation | https://www.youtube.com/@Oilersnationdotcom🚨 VAN - CanucksArmy | https://www.youtube.com/@Canucks_Army🚨 CGY - FlamesNation | https://www.youtube.com/@Flames_Nation🚨 Daily Faceoff Fantasy & Betting | www.youtube.com/@DFOFantasyandBetting____________________________________________________________________________________________Connect with us on ⬇️Link Tree: https://linktr.ee/daily_faceoff💻 Website: https://www.dailyfaceoff.com🐦 Follow on twitter: https://x.com/DailyFaceoff💻 Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dailyfaceoffDaily Faceoff Merch:https://nationgear.ca/collections/daily-faceoff Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Kyle, since so much of the conversation, and by the way, thanks so much for doing this, but since so much of the conversation around you has always been about how young Kyle Dubus is, I want to start the interview today by making you feel old. All right, you ready for this? Sure. Kyle Clifford retired. And all of our viewers and listeners, just so they know, Kyle Clifford, when you were an agent so many years ago with Uptown, he was your first client

First of all, I want to get that story. And second of all, does that make Kyle Dubus feel old? Kyle Clifford has retired. It's been like a rapid number of them. So my first year scouting for the Sioux, Andrew Campbell, we picked him in the 15th round. He was from my area. He's an assistant coach now. He was with Hamilton and Bramford in the O.HL.

And then Jake Muzzin, the second year I was scouting, was our first round pick for the Sioux. And he's retired. And now Kyle Clifford is also retired. So Jeff Carter retired, he was, he and I are the same age. And he played, you know, he was, I was obviously the first year when he was with the Sioux. And then the last year here in Pittsburgh. So, yeah, starting to get there. What do you remember from recruiting, I want to get to Penguins stuff here.

I'm just so fascinated with this one here. What do you remember from a young Kyle Dubus recruiting a young Kyle Clifford? That was the, I mean, so if I was going to stay in hockey and working, that those were the full, avenues to do it. Otherwise, it was going to be returning to the Sioux, finding another part-time job and working for the team part-time in the office and not scouting anymore. So I elected to go down that road of working in the agency business. I didn't particularly think it was for me in the end, but it was a great number of years. And Kyle Clifford was actually the first ever recruitment meeting that we went on, Don Reynolds and I. And so it was, and we met

with he and his parents, John and Debbie, at their house and air, and they called us a few days later and said that they were going to commit to have us represent them. And so it formed a great relationship that goes to this day with Kyle and was able to watch him grow, watch him win with L.A. and help them win. And then we obviously acquired him later on twice in Toronto. So that was, and he added kind of what we needed in terms of some toughness and competitiveness in Toronto at that time. So it was great to be able to now see him retire, have a family, and now he's in the development business and working with young players. And so it's great to see. One more log on the age fire. He has a 2014 that plays in the GTHL. I don't know if you

want to throw that one in there for a little bit more spice, a little more salt on the wound. But there we go. Okay. So as I'm talking to you right now, you're in Buffalo for the Prospects camp, particularly rough one against the Columbus Blue Jackets prospects. First of all, just an initial evaluation, I know this is like super early, but has anything caught your eye so far? Well, I think we have a very young group of players here by virtue of the fact that we had 12 of the 13 players we drafted in June are here at the camp. It usually doesn't work that way between college and European players and, you know, who

are with their, you know, either on campus or their seasons are started. So, yeah, I think some of the other groups are a little bit older, bigger and stronger by virtue of being older. And so it's been a great opportunity to see how our guys battle in that environment. And I think a great learning and development tool for them. The encouraging part is that some of the guys that we've been expecting to step up have. And then, you know, we have other players that aren't as heralded by virtue of the fact they were never drafted and signed NHL deals at a junior like an Avery Hayes who you would know from, you know, his, his, days in Hamilton and Peterborough helping those teams win. He's been exceptional here.

So we've got one more game that's, you know, they'll be ongoing here against Buffalo and then we'll head back and get ready to go for camp. But I think it's a great test for the young guys coming in here and, you know, learning how to how to acquit themselves against other high-end prospects and a really competitive atmosphere. I want to get to Fleury and Crosby and all these these other Penguins issues right now, but a little bit more on prospects and development. I know that one of the key planks for you,

and we see, you know, the evidence just by reading the Penguins' website, that development's a huge issue, and you've gone sort of out the door and around the block to beef up that department. It seems to me, correct me if I'm wrong here, it looks to me like there's sort of a race here to try to get as many prospects ready for the NHL as quickly as possible

so they can sort of share in the experience of playing with Sidney Crosby or watching Sidney Crosby or being around Sidney Crosby. Is that accurate? I wouldn't say that it's a race to get them into the NHL, Jeff, because we have to do it efficiently. If we're racing to meet a deadline that we don't really know what it is, we don't know how long Sid is going to play for or how long he's going to play for at this level.

level, I wouldn't put a timeline. There's anybody I would never put a timeline on? It's probably him. And so if we were to rush these prospects along and sacrifice what's best for them in the long range just to say that they played alongside of Sid, I think that is not in the best interest of those prospects or of the Pittsburgh Penguins. Our goal every day is to as efficiently as possible and as urgently as possible maximize where each of these young guys are at.

Last year, we had two players, two young players at the end of the year, earned their way up in Rutger Magrorty and Vili Koivunen. And this year in camp, we expect them to continue to push, but we also expect that, you know, the next wave of guys. I'd mentioned Avery Hayes. I would put Tristan Bros. in that bucket. Owen Pickering came up last year by necessity and played very well for a long stretch. Now can he make the team out of camp and stay in the NHL?

but for us it's all about doing what's best to get us back into contention and our goal is we have some elite players that have won multiple times in Pittsburgh and they by virtue of being in Pittsburgh for now heading into their 20th season together I think they have a great deal of knowledge and wisdom and experience that they can pass on to those guys so I think it'd be crazy not to try to get them around those players as often as we can but we can't rush them and sacrifice their long range potential in development to do that. So it's trying to thread the needle on it, but in the end, deferring to what's best in the long range for each of those players.

Okay, let me, let me try to go at this in a sort of a different way here. In this generation of hockey, there's been a lot of sort of myths that have been broken. One of the biggest ones is, oh, you can't teach touch. You know, we've always, I remember hearing that growing up, you probably heard that growing up. Goal scorers are born. They're not developed and all that. And now we realize that's a falling. and we all grew up believing it.

But when it comes to development, and I sort of frame this one very specific way with you really beefing up your development with the Pittsburgh Penguins and the development department, do you think it's possible? You used the word of fish in a second ago. I think that's a big one.

Do you think it's possible to speed up development? Once upon a time, it was like, oh, just let them ripen all these green bananas. Just let them ripen in time. They'll be ready. Is there a way to speed that up? I think the term that when I first came from the OHL and was fortunate

to get to work in the NHL the term that was used was either overripen or overcook them like you're never going to regret leaving them in the American League

for an extra year Detroit and Holland and it's great when you have it's great when you have Eisenman Federov yeah how come Hitler can't find a spot how come Philpola can't find a spot

well look at the roster exactly so So nowadays with the salary cap changes and, you know, the salary cap itself. And then I think there's, to me, there's two things. There's the salary cap and how that's changed everything. And then number two is the way that development in all of you sports has really become much more regimented and, you know, it's a massive business onto itself.

So the players, you know, even if I go from 2014 in my first year, in Toronto, going back to my time in the Sioux and seeing the guys come in there, they're just so much more ready. Now I have my own son who's eight going through all of this, and I compare it to my own experience when I was that age, and it's night and day. The amount of precision and detail that's put into development beginning much early. So the players themselves, I think, are able to be ready a little bit sooner,

just by virtue of the way that the landscape has changed developmentally. And on the development side for us, I mean, we have Tom Costopoulos who reports it to Jason Speza. And it's been a deep investment for us since the day that I got here and it was the department that I was tasked with running in Toronto from 2014 to 18. And to me, it's just so pivotal because you can get so much out of these guys if you're as organized and regimented as possible. And you make it thoroughly enjoyable as a process.

for the players and so I do think there's something to these younger guys it's only you can it's further evidence by guys coming into the league you know and and being able to step in and play and play well right away it's not everybody but I just think it's it's a little bit quicker of a track than it was in the past you know the um I brought up crosbie for a specific reason around development because I kind of see crosbie is as pivotal for whatever is going to be next for the Pittsburgh penguins and when those kids get there those kids get there but I remember having a conversation with Colby Armstrong once and I said give me a good story about Sid

like one sort of eye-opening story and Colby said I remember one of my first practices with Pittsburgh we skated and then I went in the gym and there's Crosby and he's lifting heavy and he's working harder than everybody else and Colby said I went over to him and I said like Sid is there another league that I don't know about that you're trying to get to like is there a league higher than the NHL

that you're working towards trying to get to here from what you've seen with Crosby be like, I always say that Crosby should be in the conversation for the Heart Trophy every year because of by definition of the trophy, the standard that he sets for whatever team he's on, everybody has to try to meet it or you're a failure on that team. What do kids get from being around Sidney Crosby? I think in seeing it, so it's interesting. Every year around development camp, Cid is still in Pittsburgh and just organically,

he's out on the ice working in the mornings. And all three of the years that I've been here, what tends to happen is the players will, you know, you come into the rank, the younger guys we just drafted and they'll say, oh, Sid's out on the ice, and they'll go out and watch the amount of work he's putting in in the first week of July. And I think, you know, the awe and the admiration, it doesn't need, they don't need to see that to have it. and then I think what seeing him and how much work he puts into his craft does is it it makes them acutely aware of how much work they're going to put in if they're going to come even remotely close to to that level which is which is not overly attainable but you see a player who just turned 38 years old continuing every day to go to the rink put in his work in a very specific and detailed way and even though he's 38 he's

accomplished all that he's accomplished. I think the way that I view him is that he's put, he has deemed himself still in development. So trying to find any edge that he can to help himself and thus help the team win. So you could have a number of ex-teammates come on and tell a lot of stories about their own experience with him. But for us to see the impact that it has on the organization, our young players has been, been massive. And it's part of what makes him as special as he is at his age and showing no signs of slowing down. You know, when you see the stories because the Crosby conversation has now been happening for a while and now even, you know, Pat Pryson has made mention of it too and Crosby's situation.

I think it's overly simplistic, even though I'm guilty of saying it myself, that this is maybe that internal battle between loyalty and competition for. for Sydney Crosby, but the conversation right now is, will he or won't he? And I've always maintained that that's a conversation that needs to be initiated by Crosby and not Kyle Dubus. How is the Crosby situation with you right now? Yeah, to me right now, I know that everyone will probably want a much deeper answer, but because of who it is and because of, you know, being three days away from training camp,

my view of it, Jeff, and this won't change throughout, is that we can't spend any time worrying about it. Sidney Crosby is the captain of the Pittsburgh Penguins. He is one of the all-time best players in the history of the league. And so for us, having discourse around transactions or responding to what different things that are said in the media or where different media members would like him move to or different things of that nature is a distraction that with the task at hand and knowing what that task was when I came to Pittsburgh in 2023, we just can't get distracted with it. So I don't spend any time thinking about it or worrying about it at all, even though I know

that lots of other people do because he's Sid and he's extremely special and means a lot to everybody in hockey. But our full focus goes back to one of your previous questions, which is about how are we going to build the next wave of Pittsburgh Penguins teams that can contend for championships and do so perennially and any other time that we spend focusing on anything else that's beyond our control I think takes away from that so our focus remains on continuing this the job that that we've signed up for which is to build the team back into a contender and you know that we don't put any timelines on that because we're trying to do that as

urgently as we can. So we haven't come out and said it's an X amount of years plan because we, you know, we talked really about development and what younger players are capable of and we're trying to find every edge we can to get back into that mix in our division and then within the league. When you see all the pieces and hear the conversations, is it annoying or do you say, you know what, that's just the cost of doing business and that's the life of a GM

and the NHL. I think that's the business that we've chosen. And I don't begrudge I don't begrudge any of it. I think it's a player that people have a deep amount of interest in and I understand

why people want to see all great players contend and win every year of their whole life because they're special. They mean a lot to them. And so, you know, I don't think anything of it. I don't get, you know, too hot or cold about any, any of that. It's beyond our control and what people are, you know, people have a narrative that they want to, they want to write. And I respect that they all have a job to do. So it doesn't have any negative impact on, on me or on us. I remember having a

conversation, and Kelly's talked about this a number of times, so having a conversation with Kelly Rudy, and the first time that it's sort of dawned on him that GMs talk about everybody always. He said, he was having a conversation with his general manager in L.A. Rogi Vashon. He said, like, you know, how many times you talk to other GMs? And he said, I talk every single day. He goes, you talk about all of our players? He said, yeah. So do you talk about me? He said, yeah. I said, I talk about everybody. It's my job to talk about everybody. And Kelly said, that was an eye-opening moment for him as a player. I think one of the things that people are always curious about,

I know I certainly am, like do you have a sense of what you can get for just about everybody on your roster? Like, do you have like, the marketplace read is always interesting? And I know it's changing and it's not fixed. But do you have a sense of, okay, you want to make a move with player X,

you know exactly what the market for that player is at all times? Is that accurate? I think probably a different way to look at, and I don't know if it's right or wrong, but it's trying to know what every team's needs are or what their needs could be as to get into the year. So especially at this time, a year, it's trying to know what the battles teams are going to have in camp or what may become available in camp and then staying really close to the information on injuries, especially if there are key players on their team. And then knowing if player X underperforms in camp early in this,

season or if a player gets injured, you know, do we have the types of players that they're going to want? It's also knowing where those teams are at relative to their budgets versus the cap or internally. And then, you know, what their pushes, what the pressure is on those teams from, you know, in their market or from ownership to contend or to rebuild and different things of that nature. Jeff, so it's trying to know all of that and have as good information as possible. And that comes from, you know, our others in management. It comes from our pro scouts who are out in the ranks every day, kind of trying to gather that. And I really think the job is so important to have as great information as possible,

and then be able to use that to help do what's best for our team. So you kind of know the types of players teams are looking for, and then you have your own view of what types of players we have and what they're about, and then try to act on it that way. Do you have a theory on why this was a particularly quiet summer? I've sort of glibly said, like, you know, there's not going to be any offer sheets because the penguins have all the draft picks, so no one has the capital to offer sheet anybody.

Do you have a thought on why this? We all thought this was going to be fireworks again. We thought this were going to be fireworks this summer. It hasn't been. Right. I think the offer sheet part, the thing about it is with the cap going up, if you're going to go down that path,

and it was obviously very successful for St. Louis in the summer, 24. If you're going to go down that path, I think you have to, you have to think that you have the team, the information of the team is either not going to match or they can't. And I think this year, if you look around, there are very few teams that have RFAs that would be of interest to groups that the team that had them wouldn't have matched on. You had some major trades around the draft and guys signed longer term. And then, you know, last year, we made a three trades deep into August this year we made two deep into July and since then it's been relatively it's been relatively quiet I think teams most teams still have some degree of cap space

so there hasn't been the rush to try to move guys out that way and I think that is probably you know I don't know if it'll be the norm summer to summer but that's just that's been my view this year is that there there hasn't been the pressure exerted by the cap being flat for the last several years that exists this summer. So even teams that are primarily squeezed have a great deal of space. And then the other part is the CBA information, you know, in learning a few weeks of what was going to go in this year and next, I think it forced teams to probably act with a little bit more hesitation, not knowing, you know, what the rulings were LTIR, playoff cap and how that would impact them. So you wouldn't want to do anything.

in August or late July or August without knowing exactly what the season was going to look like, especially if you're a contending team. You wouldn't want to handcuff yourself and limit your chances to win by making a move midway through the summer as much as I'm sure fans and media begrudge that. You needed something to talk about, Kyle.

When you saw what was in the new CBA, my first thought was if I'm a general manager, I'm feeling like, okay, I'm playing a card game here and now someone just inserted a new deck of cards into all of it. How did it feel to you? I thought for number one, I think it was, it's great that the league and the NHLPA were able to come together and get something done so quickly, especially with new leadership at the NHLPA with Marty Walsh and Ron Hainsey

and the other group that's had great experience there. But, you know, so number, it's, it's, It's nice to know that there's going to be no breaks in the action here for the next several years and I know that they've done a lot of work on international hockey and making that a reality. So just to have something done has been great, I look at it, I probably would have looked at it very differently had this happen during my time in Toronto where we were, you know, right up close to the cap right now we have a lot of, we have a lot of cap space and we have a lot of future flexibility and I think that will come to be very beneficial.

official for us as we navigate through the next several years. But I probably don't have the same amount of urgency now, you know, in Pittsburgh to react to the new CBA. And we have have a chance to really watch and see how it takes hold here in the short run the next couple months in this season and because of the flexibility or the agility we have relative to the cap or financially. So, you know, I think the league did a great job of making us prepared for what may come in and communicating with us. So it allowed us to digest it and try to forecast it out ourselves as well. Mark Andre Fleury and the PTO and the game against Columbus. Listen, Mark Andre Fleury for the longest time has always been a feel-good story.

You don't have to be a Penguins fan or a Vegas fan or a Minnesota fan to love Mark Andre Fleury. He's one of those athletes where, you know, I always say I don't cheer for team. I cheer for people, and he's one of those people that I think everybody cheers for. How did this one come together, Kyle? I think we had Mark, Andre, at the worlds, and last year, late October, he came to Pittsburgh and he had announced that it had been his final year, and just the reaction of the fans, and that was in early October, or sorry, late October, and to see how much he'd been to the fans that because of who he is as a person,

obviously the success he had in Pittsburgh, he holds every goaltending record in Pittsburgh, three Stanley Cups, making one of the biggest saves that I can ever remember in Game 7 in 9 seconds to, you know, to preserve a 2-1 win. And so just in trying to think of the best way,

especially someone of his personality and how much he loves hockey and the enthusiasm that he has, trying to figure out the best way for the fans to say goodbye one last time and you know there's always the one-day contract thing but then in seeing how much fun he had playing at the world championships and how well he played at the world championship I just in conversations with with mark and with Alan Walsh it just struck as a good idea for the fan base and for and for flower and you know they were we talked about it throughout the summer and then all credit to him he was

He jumped on board and wants to do it. So I think it will be a very special night for the fans in Pittsburgh, for the city of Pittsburgh. And I think also it's unique in that there's still a number of players on our team that have played with Flower in Pittsburgh and won championships with him in 2009, 16 and 17. So it's just a unique opportunity because it's a unique person. and it should be a very special and exciting night for Mark and his family, but also for the penguins and the fans in Pittsburgh. I know everywhere you've gone, Elamai has been important to you. Does this mean even more so than ever that Mark Andre Fleury has a home in Pittsburgh,

perhaps even with the Pittsburgh Penguins organization, would that door be open? I think the door is always open for Mark. at the same time, I think, you know, he's got a young family and talking to him, and that's his story to tell, not for me, but, you know, I think prioritizing that has been the most important thing. And, you know, they've got young kids that are just, you know, going through school, elementary school. And so I think that'll be number one. But I think for all of these guys, I think the alumni part that you touched on is vitally important in how we handle alumni and the players that have carried the organization through any number of years and the ups and downs that every franchise go through, goes through. It's vitally important to me that our organization is treating those people who've given so much to the organization as well as possible. But when it comes to Mark Andre Fleury, he'll always have a place here if he wants it, no doubt.

A couple of sort of winks at Toronto here. I've always maintained that, and I think a lot of us have at the same time. Every team got stung by COVID, obviously. perhaps the Maple Leafs more so than most because of the nature of the contracts and how they were poised to age before the flat cap came in. But the other one, and I'm glad you mentioned his name earlier. And I don't think this gets talked about enough. I really think that the Jake Muzzin injury hurt the Toronto Maple Leafs more than anybody talks about.

Agree or disagree? Well, yes. I mean, I think every team deals with it, Jeff. So I don't think there's really any excuse. We didn't get it done to the level that our potential dictated in the end that, you know, that falls on me in my role there and not being able to do the things that would push the team over the top. But, you know, Muz got injured against Columbus in 2020 in the bubble in the first game. and then missed game six and seven against Montreal in 21.

And then, you know, it was, you know, in 22-23 season, his career ended. So he was someone brought in specifically for defensive purposes and to kill penalties and be the guy that could play against the other team's best players. And when he was healthy and at his best, he added a tremendous element to our group in Toronto. and, you know, we definitely missed them and tried to do our best to fill in. And that was the acquisition of Jake McCabe at the deadline in, in 2023 from Chicago. But we sure would have liked to have had both. I just look at Muzin and I say there are so few players that played like him

and brought what he did to your team. And I know that John Tavares was your captain when you're the manager. Toronto, but the more people that I talked to, like, Muson, Jake Muson, had a major leadership role and position on that squad. It wasn't just what he did on the ice. Well, Musn had won, and Mus is also a tremendous glue guy, and he's a little bit old school as well. So he was able to, you know, I think pass on his lessons very openly to a lot of the younger players that came in and then you know he just the way that he played was something that we had we desperately needed and but he you know in terms of best way I would term as as I said was

just a just a glue guy that connected everybody together and so when you when you lose those types it it it hurts but that's teams deal with it every every year in the playoffs and you have to you have to adapt and we didn't we didn't you know we weren't well-suited enough to do that and that falls on me okay let me uh let me go on a little fishing trip here with you one of uh one of all of our favorite pictures is two phone dubus that is one of uh that is one of the greats um do you remember which two conversations you were having on those two phones i think that was vancouver draft in 2019 although i'm not 100% sure well it was it was a call at from on the landline at the desk, at the draft from a team about a trade.

And then the cell phone call was one of our draft picks that we had just chosen, Michael Kester. He was a Minnesota high school player, went to the University of Minnesota. He picked him, I think, in the fifth round. And we hadn't been able to get a hold of him yet to welcome him to the team. And he was basically the only player we hadn't gotten a hold of. And there was no trade that was going to happen. so we were just trying to like hang up and I saw him call and I didn't want the call to to you know go to voicemail again because we hadn't talked to him yet and so for like

for a brief second there's I'm just trying to get the other general manager off the phone and reach up and grab my cell phone and yeah it wasn't it wasn't there wasn't two conversations happening at the same time it just the way that it looked and I think that's a lot That's what people equate the job to a lot of times, so it created a good picture that you'll be able to keep forever. If I leave enough awkward silence right now, will you tell us who the trade was? I don't remember. During the draft, you get so many that are, at that stage in the draft, it's usually,

would you trade me your six this year for six that year or the inverse of that? And there's so many of them that there's, it wasn't a very memorable one. but I don't honestly remember. I want to ask you about Dan Mews. A couple more here with you. I know you've got to get to the game here in the Buffalo Prospect Tournament. Dan Mews, I don't know that we read into you.

You've made a couple of coaching hires in your time as a manager in the NHL. Sheldon Keefe was the first time NHL head coach, Dan Mews, first time head coach for the Pittsburgh Penguins. I don't know that two is enough to detect a theme, but why is Dan Mews the right coach for the Pittsburgh Penguins right now.

When we went through the process, Jeff, what specifically, and I've said this since the hire, what specifically we were looking for was we were looking for somebody that could get the most out of young players, get the most out of our veteran guys at the same time. It had a deep appreciation and understanding for development for players at all stages, deeply organized, great communication. and we went through a very thorough process and interviewed a lot of people in the first stage of things in May and then brought a number of people into Pittsburgh

to interview in person late May and then made our decision to go with Dan. When I got into it, obviously I knew Sheldon before as I'd worked with them in Sue St. Mary and with the Marley's, and I didn't know Dan at all. I took recommendation from a few people that I trusted. He was a guy that they thought I would really like and should have a conversation with.

And then after the first conversation, it was clear that it would, someone that I wanted to get to know more. And then by the end, I felt that he was just the right fit for us. Because what specifically we were looking for was somebody that could install certain standards and develop all of our players at all ages,

get the most out of our young and older players alike, and also be somebody that could guide us through this stage of our organization, but also come through on the other side that had a history of head coaching success. And so if you look at Dan, it's a, you know, he's taking a long journey to get to become a head coach in the National Hockey League. He hasn't really skipped any steps ever from college assistant coach to USHL head coach, NHL assistant, back to the U.S. program, and then back to NHL assistant.

and just in talking to the players that had played for him, the younger players would all say he held him highly accountable, was very disciplined but also very innovative and there may have been times when they didn't like him when they were on his teams, but in looking back, they learned as much or more from him than anybody. And then in talking to some of the older players

that had played from in the NHL in Nashville and New York, it was clear that he commanded a great deal of respect through his preparation, intelligence, and putting them in good spots, to succeed. So if you look at his, he was in charge of the penalty kill in both spots and across all of his years in the league, they've performed at a very high level. And so the, you know, when we took all that and then brought him in and he was around our staff, it just became, you know, very clear that this was probably the best choice for where we're at

and where we want to be both. And it's been, you know, we haven't played any games yet. So we haven't won or lost any, and the emotions of the year haven't come into it. But I think just with the staff that Dan assembled with Mike Stuthers and Todd Nelson as veteran guys that have seen mostly everything in hockey and then younger, you know, two younger coaches and Richard Clune and Nick Benino. It's just a great mix of staff to have in terms of experiences and, you know, intellects and different things of that nature. So I'm excited about the staff and I think, you know, they're in it for the long haul.

They know where we're at and where we're going and to see them kind of, get at it here. It's been a lot of fun. One quick analytics question. I was, it's always intimate. Everything is a sort of process of evolution. You sit on the shoulders of knowledge that came before, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. From the quote unquote early days and, you know, the Oilers blogosphere, you know, going back to the lockout of 205 is just celebrated their 20 year anniversary, made a big deal about it online. Rightfully so. Some people from that group have gone on to become part of Stanley Cup winning organizations. and populate various front offices around the NHL.

When you look at the information under that umbrella that's been gathered for 20 years. Like I've always been told by people in analytics departments, don't put too much value in expected goals. We're past that. That's the public model, but our models are well past that. What do you look at and say, you know what, we're past this stat or we're past this way of measuring hockey,

players and hockey games? Well, I think the major difference now is that the teams have such a massive information advantage over the public because of the tracking data, which doesn't necessarily become public in a way that can be manipulated or tested or used to break down different, you create and break down different metrics, Jeff. So whereas if, you know, you go back and I just think like, you know, for me, 2009, 10, 11, especially going back to the Sioux and trying to find different advantages there that we could, you know, use in player acquisition or evaluating our team. And you very often felt that those types of places and, you know, you think of the,

you know, the writings of like Eric Tulski or Tyler Delo. or, you know, a number of people all throughout, like just to name two that have gone on to work in management, one, being a general manager and, well, coincidentally, his assistant. So he, you know, you, in those days, the information advantage, I think, went to the public because they were taking information and testing it themselves. It was readily available to everybody and then using it to make strong forecasts or really changed the way that you could you thought traditionally about hockey and I think that was very beneficial now you know you referenced it the information that the teams have because of the tracking

the player and puck tracking data and our ability to house that information with our own R&D departments or analytics departments is just so massive over what the what the public can can do so yeah there are times when there's stuff written publicly where it's just way off from what we have and rather than get you know angry about it or anything of that nature it's just you have to remember you have you have much more information at your disposal than than people publicly baseball has kind of gone to where you can I can pull up and and see you know anything I want you know on baseball savant or a savant and and you know hockey I'm sure will one day get there I know there's the edge website, but you can't really,

I don't know that you can pull everything off of there and be able to work with it yourself. And I'm sure one day we will get there, and then you'll see extraordinarily smart people take that and do things that the teams haven't even thought of as well. And I think that's what makes sports great. There are people who are brilliant that are not working in the sport that may just become intrigued by something

and change the way that it's done as it moves ahead. I'm glad you mentioned your time with the Sioux and very primitive, quote-unquote, analytics. Was it your group sales manager he would bring on the road to track zone entries? I remember, like, the Greyhous were at the forefront of all this, and it's like, yeah, the guy doing group ticket sales is counting zone entries for Sheldon game. So it's not a big budget operation or wasn't then. So the only way to have people, you know, everything he'd be tracked had to be tracked, you know, now you can go on sport logic, you can pull up everything you want about the

Steve Greyhounds and the, you know, the Brantford Bulldogs and the Prince George Cougars and whoever, it's all right there at your disposal for a fee. But back then, we, there was no sport logic. There was, there might have been very primitive. So our only way to track even, so all we got from the league was shots, goals, assists, plus minus. And the OHL didn't even track individual player shots at that time. The Quebec League did. And so if we were going to get that information and be able to analyze it and use it, we had to have people internally do it.

So we hired Tyson Enfield. He was our ticket sales manager and would go to every game and track everything live. And then we hired also then Matt Rodell the next year. and Matt is still with the Dallas Stars in a prominent role for Jim Nill on the data and analytics side. And so we had two people, but their full-time job was in sales, ticketing or partnerships. We only had, we had, you know, we only had four or five people in the office at most, including me.

So we had to do whatever it took to collect the information and help our team. Sheldon was very open to it and it was helpful for us as we kind of, you know, the team built itself out and those were, those were great memories. It was a lot of, it was a lot of fun. I think working in major junior hockey is, it's so great and awesome. And, you know, it's always something I look back on extremely fondly and I still watch every good Greyhound game. So I'm not that far removed. Those were the days. You've been generous with your time as you all. always are. Kyle, thanks so much for this. Good luck to the rest of the prospects

camp and good luck this season. Perfect. Thanks, Jeff. Appreciate it. I went to 16 hours last night every day this week, every day this month. I can't get out my head, lost all ambitious day to day, because you can call it all right. I went to the dark man and tried to give me a little medicine. I'm like, no, and that's fine. I'm not against those methods but new it's me and myself and how this is going to be fixing my mind I do on the bracket I turned on the music

I do want to bang it I turn on the music fixing up and I don't get you sometimes losing wrong in the dead dark night