The Shintaro Higashi Show - Bridging the Gap Between Judo and BJJ

Episode Date: June 28, 2021

Judo and BJJ share the same origin, and yet they have developed into quite distinct martial arts. Despite their differences, there are complementary aspects in both arts, and martial artists can greatly benefit by learning both. How can we bridge the gap between Judo and BJJ so that more martial artists see the complementary aspects of both arts? In this episode, Shintaro sits down with Brian Glick, a BJJ black belt who was one of the early students of John Danaher, to discuss how we can bridge the gap between Judo and BJJ. Please support us on Patreon if you can: https://www.patreon.com/shintaro_higashi_show. Any amount helps!

Hello everyone, welcome back to the Shintaro Higashi Show with Peter Yu. Today I'm going to do something a little bit different. This is a conversation I had with Brian Glick about bridging the gap between Judo and Jiu-Jitsu. Brian Glick is a John Donaher Black Belt, one of the first ever. I think he was one of the two people first Donaher Black Belts. He's amazing, he teaches me Jiu-Jitsu. And yeah, hope you guys enjoy. Let me know if you guys have any questions.

Bye. Well, Sensei, thank you for being here in this kind of like a weird podcast situation. Now I have a question. Yes. Not really for me, you know, because I'm an expert, you know, and I'm sure you don't have any questions since you've mastered all everything.

Stop asking questions years ago. Yeah. But I was thinking more so for the viewers is we're going to do a collaborative thing where we're doing a bridging the gap situation. Because you have a heavy jiu-jitsu background and I have a heavy judo background. So we're going to try to bridge that gap. And I learned jiu-jitsu from you and then you learned jiu-jitsu from me.

So if you have any advice for judo guys to do jiu-jitsu or jiu-jitsu guys to do judo, what would that sort of be? For both people, it's important to let go a little bit of what you're already doing. What you're doing may work and it may be working really well, actually. But if you hold onto that for too long in a different context, it can, it can prevent learning something new, especially something that's adjacent to what you already know. And when I think about this and people ask me about, you know, doing judo, sometimes they feel, they wonder if they should go

like headlong into judo and start at the very beginning or if they should do something that's more adaptive, which was kind of my path. You know, my path to judo was much more adapting judo as I was taught it to jujitsu,

which was my teacher's mentality that was how i was taught and then it was always with a jujitsu mindset that he and i would do uh like judo techniques at the beginning you know when we were first when i was first learning yeah and then from there i expanded to learn more like from you and from uh time oc and um you know to be able to understand like what are the real kind of core mechanics why judo works like what's what's a good osotogari look like what's a formal orthodox osotogari look like so i think it some of it depends on what the goal is for a judo person coming to learn jujitsu whether you want to can like improve elements of your nawaza that you're

already doing or if you want to really start to integrate new pieces of groundwork into your, your judo. So I think it's very important to distinguish those. It is. Yeah, it is. It is. Yeah. You have to, you have to, because if, if what you want to do is like improve your German strangle, you know, um, you may find some information from jujitsu that, that can give you technical details that you hadn't seen or entries or variations or mechanics that you hadn't seen before. And then you take that and you say, oh, you know what? I can put this into what I'm already doing. And then there's another mindset that says, well, you know, I can do the standard things. I can do, you know, the clock choke. I can

do British strangle, German strangle, juj jujutsu but i want to be able to do uh kimura or i want to be able i want to understand a little more about everybody's talking about ashigarami i want to be able to do like a little more with the legs yeah so that would be a different mindset because you would want to come in and you would want to say okay you know i'm here to learn the jujitsu way of doing things i'm gonna put my judo stuff aside yeah so the more you can do that i think the more access you'll have and then the work as a student for the person who is coming in is to is to synthesize those yes you know like you won't i think it will be rare to find a teacher who can synthesize both of those because they tend to be very distinct just

because of like rule sets. And we've talked about that. Yeah. So the synthesis often will have to happen through you. You'll have to do that synthesis yourself through, through your, your, your training with Judo and Jiu Jitsu.

So I hear a lot of questions like, Hey, can you do this in Judo? It's like, yes and no. If you do an Olympic Judo, IJF competition circuit, can you go for a leg lock? No, you cannot. But if you're trying to come in here and be a straight up grappler and you're doing judo for martial reasons then yeah why not you know if you have

a willing opponent you know we have joe coker over there he's a jujitsu brown belt and a karate black belt and he wants to do something cool that's not specific to sport judo then god bless you right you could do it with me or that guy and there's a mutual agreement and it's safe right yeah yeah yeah i think the the challenge that sometimes people face not everybody but depending on your agent stage is to be at a certain level in jujitsu or a certain level of judo and then come in and um come into a different environment and do what you've always done in that environment. And it doesn't usually blend too well. You know, it's always a little better,

you know, to do, you know, when in Rome, you know, to take that kind of approach. So if you are someone who is a judoka who wants to do jujitsu, I think you should 100%. And I think you need to find the right place to do jujitsu i think you should 100 and i think you need to find the right place to do it and i think you need to have the right mindset you need to understand what your goals are what you're trying to accomplish um what you want the end result to be do you want to have uh stronger versions of what you already have or do you want

to expand your understanding or do you want to dig a little more deeper into the waza and probably it would be the same for a jujitsu guy who wants to do judo, right? Kind of their goals need to be clearly defined. Yeah. I mean, here's an example. Like, it's very specific to me, right? I wrestled in high school and college. And a lot of the times in competition, I'll try to double down and do judo and wrestling.

And if I was doing judo back in the day with leg grabs allowed, I would do a lot of wrestling and judo in competition, right? But sometimes when I'm in the wrestling room, I'm trying to drill techniques that won't work in judo but that's specific to wrestling just to kind of expand on that so like i would have times where i work on this times where i would double down on that and i think you kind of have to have a shifting between both and i think it goes the same way when we do judo and nirwaza or judo and jiu-jitsu right yeah yeah and then the other thing that i'll say is that unless you are a full-time competitive athlete you'll have limited time yes to dedicate to a practice of martial arts in general you have other obligations so there's nothing wrong with that and actually

it's great it's great to have it know, to be a kind of recreational practitioner. And you can still be diving pretty deep into this stuff. What I'll say is if it's your specific goal to learn the judo curriculum, as you say, you know, if you start in jujitsu, you're a purple belt or you're a blue belt. And it's your goal to learn the judo curriculum from A to b from a to z and you want to start with osotogari and you go all the way through and you learn then that is a very specific clear goal and maybe your goal is to be a judo black belt or to work at a certain level but if it's not and if it's just to kind of gather enough information to feel like you're competent and comfortable, just be real clear. I think about that, you know, that's, that's what you're trying to do. And you can tailor your approach to that. There may be some things that you will learn that you'll never do. Like a lot of times I, someone had, um, people had asked me this question. They were like, how do you figure

out what you're going to focus on? Like if you're in a Rindori session or you're in a sparring session, like how do you pick the two or three things that you should be working on? So you're in a Rindori session or you're in a sparring session, like how do you pick the two or three things that you should be working on? So you're not looking at everything. So, yeah, I mean, my answer is you have to be able to like, you have to streamline your choices. So they make sense for you. Like I'm never going to have an awesome Osotogari, you know, like I'm never going to have a pretty good Osotogari. You know, like I'm never going to talk about that. You've got a pretty good Osotogari. I'm never going to

dedicate the time to be able to have like a reliable blast Osoto where I'm just going to be able to smash through people where I can count on it

as a technique. Yoko Tomoe, on the other hand, like I feel pretty confident that I could do that enough to feel comfortable. For anybody in the world with it?

Yeah, exactly. I could integrate that a little bit more than I could if I were starting from zero and trying to go to... Yeah. So do you feel the same way? Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of synergy between Tomonage and Yonewaza, right? Because you play the Inside Ashi series, you know, the Delahiva stuff. You go right into it if the Tomonage, you know, quote unquote fail. It's not Newaza, right? Because you play the Inside Ashi series, you know, the Del Hiva stuff. You go right into it

if the Tomonage, you know, quote unquote fail. It's not really a failure, right? Because if the goal of your Tomonage is to take the person down

or transition into Newaza, you've already succeeded by going for it, period. Yeah. Right? So, yeah,

some techniques are better than others. You know, you like Tomonage and, you know, if you want to learn a Soto from a Judo guy,

that person may not have had any Jiu-Jitsu experience. So it's like, oh, how does this work against these Jiu-Jitsu defenses? And then they might not even have the answer to that. So that's a very insightful thing. Yes. too that you may not want to um like you know you may not it may not be important for you to learn uh you know a specific pass or for you to learn a certain attack because it will never surface yes in your noise like just even if you forced it even if if you pushed it, the person just wouldn't give it up. Yes.

So do you feel like people who are doing judo, people who are doing jiu-jitsu should stay away from things that don't apply? Or do you feel like they can take a little bit of creative license? I think they should take the, you know, that I took in wrestling. Right. It's like sometimes you have to double down on your new waza. And judo guys going into jiu-jitsu, and I ask you about this stuff all the time, attack in the wrestling. Right. It's like sometimes you have to double that on your new waza. And in judo guys going into jiu-jitsu, like, and I ask you

about this stuff all the time, attacking the back, right? And in judo specifically, you want to turn the person to pin them, but that never happens in jiu-jitsu, right? Because there's no point.

The back, taking the back and being there is superior to being in side control. Right? Is that right? Yes. Yeah, that is.

That's my intuition. Yeah. So there's no reason for it, so no one will go for it. So like, if I came out and asked you, like, hey, how do I turn somebody over when they're on the back is right that's my intuition yeah so there's no reason for it so no one will go for it so like if i came out and asked you like hey how do i turn somebody over when they're on the back and on the stomach and turtle and then pin him go to side control it's like you'd be like why that's dumb right and so like that would be something that i wouldn't really double down i do that

specifically in judo and i work on that in judo but like that back attack position attacking the arm and the neck sort of simultaneously that's very very valuable and that there's a big gap there still in judo that can be filled through jujitsu right so like that's where i'd want to sort of double that on yeah that's great that's great and i think the other thing the only other thing we didn't talk about which i think is also important to mention is that a lot of stuff you know there are direct correlations between what you're doing, what you're learning, what you're practicing, and then what you'll use in a Rendori or your sparring situation or self-defense even if you're, if that's your goal. But there is a lot that is developmental in the learning of new things.

And for many people, it's the act of learning something or it's, it's the, um, it's the elements that are included in learning something new that feed back into what they're already doing. So, you know, again, like I may not ever have an amazing Osotogari that I can, I can throw black belts with. You do though. I may or may not ever have that, but learning,

like going through the process of learning how to do that. Oh, so to Gary. Yeah. I may learn something very valuable in the process. Even if the outcome, like even if the end result is not like frameable, you know,

like I'm not going to take a picture of myself and put it on that wall. Like what I have to do in order to be able to learn that sort of osotogari yeah may translate into something else and i'll give you like i'll give you an example um the barambolo in jujitsu is very popular and it used to be seen as this outlier technique where it was you know only for advanced people and you had to be like super flexible, but it's come a little bit more into the mainstream now and more and more people are able to do it. Now, not everybody can use it to take the back and not everybody can use it very well, but it teaches a very important skill. It teaches the skill of being able to invert up onto

your shoulders and it teaches you to manage when somebody's weight is on you and you're underneath. And that's just, that's just a really valuable skill. It's valuable for guard retention. It's valuable understanding that the opposite. So like where your body needs to be, if you are, if you're on the top position rather than underneath somebody and all of that stuff is really critical. You may never use a barambola. Yeah.

But being able to monitor your position and know where your body is, it's like you have this kinesthetic understanding that translates. So I think it's a natural affinity to do judo and jiu-jitsu. It makes sense regardless of what your goals are. Yeah. And today when you were teaching that, you came and taught us the De La Riva series, going and trying to take the back, and then the interplay between that, the Barambola, and the Tomo Nage, right? And then it's like, oh, man, and I learned those three pieces together, and I can't do independently each of those things well, but like messing around, attacking here and going here and attacking there, and then looping that back to my Judo, it's like, okay, I go to Tomo Nage.

In this specific setting, I go into daiba and then i could enter this three-part approach like that's really valuable yeah you know so like uh without even knowing it right it was able to be tied back to my knowledge base you know like keep saying nice things about myself but like that was pretty nice it was like this moment of like oh shoot and that shows how great of a teacher you are. Because you integrated, you knew that I do this thing. And then, right. Do you have something like that in Judo? Like what is your most valuable thing that you've picked up in the Judo?

Probably in like the last year or so. Because we've been working a little while. Yeah. Well, I mean, one of the things that I've gained confidence in with you is turn throws and dropping underneath so we did we did a series of like a reverse kataguruma reverse seoi kind of position where we used an outside we used moving to the outside to be able to drop underneath and then for me personally I've never felt comfortable with drop throws like I've never felt comfortable turning underneath. And then for me personally, I've never felt comfortable with drop throws. Like I've never felt comfortable turning underneath somebody. And then for like standard Sanagi throws and these sorts of things where I turn my back.

That was always, as I was learning my, you know, judo filtered through jujitsu through Danaher. I was never, we never did throws that put us in positions where we were exposing our back. There were some like Tai Toes we would do a little bit. Yeah. But even those were less risky than like a drop through, almost never. Yeah. And so we start, when we started doing some of these variations, like the standard I would never do. But the variations where we're on the outside of the arm, I feel a lot more comfortable doing it.

do, but the variations where we're on the outside of the arm, I feel a lot more comfortable doing it. And so what I'll say is that, you know, for me, we started doing that and then we began integrating it into things that were a little bit more jujitsu based, right? There's a video, there's a video, which we can link to, um, where, where we were doing collar drags into this reverse sailing. And so that's an example of something that I feel totally comfortable with, collar drag, with something that I don't feel that comfortable with. That's this reverse kata guruma. But I felt like I was able to gain confidence

because your instruction was so clear. That's number one. Because your instruction was so clear. That's number one. Number two, we approached it from a place that made sense for me as a jujitsu practitioner. It's not something you might show somebody on their first day in judo. But my needs are different than that person's needs. And so I think I understand what my needs are.

I think as an instructor, you understand what my needs are. So we were able to get to this thing. I was like, Oh yeah, this makes sense. This makes sense. Um, so definitely getting more comfortable with dropping underneath and creating an angle to be able to do that was a real, it was a confidence booster.

And then it was also a game changer in terms of like directions for my standing. I'm so happy. Yeah. Cause sometimes we throw everything in the kitchen sink, right? And it's like some of it doesn't stay. Right. You know, like some of the jiu-jitsu stuff is like, man, I just never can get it. I have these short stubble legs.

It's like horrible for me to do. You know, you're kind of the opposite body type of me, right? But some things it's like, oh, right? Yeah. I guess that's one of those things. Yeah. And then for you, we had that experience today, right? Like there's some stuff like there was, you want tell everybody like there were two things right one of them one of

them was the delahiva there's like back tape which totally like was not applicable no yeah it's actually the long base out like this like i can't reach my legs to the other side no matter what i just have these short legs right so it doesn't apply i'm not flexible yeah but then we get to something that doesn't apply you were saying that yeah so more and those sorts of things like yeah what's something in the last year that you've like you feel like you've taken on a little bit more you know one thing that you said to me was something that you said to me specific uh that was kind of like oh you know like it kind of hurt my feelings a little bit it's like don't be so monodirectional right because i'm always coming at you face forward and you know i try not to be as fast right but it's like i have that judo mindset of like

pressure pressure forward forward because i'm a short stocky guy and very explosive so like i like playing that and i try to tone it down always but it's like i started and when i get into that mindset it's very difficult for me to get out of so you said don't be so monodirectional like come forward and then go back and i said i don't really like the feeling of retreating and then you said it's not retreating right it's a strategical thing like you by going backwards you kind of right trying to create angles and flanks like oh and so like that's something that i kind of like hold on to almost like a mantra you know like don't be so monodirectional you know and it's like i tell myself i'm pretty good

at all this stuff right yeah you are but you know it's like oh i'm being model direction because i have blind spots too right so like that's something i really hold on to right you know and uh you very good at like alternating between like uh pressure and then you know floating and coming back and then playing back here and you can play from all the different angles and your misdirection game is so clean. It's like that's, I strive to emulate that. But it's difficult

with my bifed too. Yeah. So the ideas that I get when I work out with you, that's like, that's a big thing for me. You know, and that monodirectional thing,

that's still something that I'm trying to like work on. Because I know I have a tendency for that. And like you said, in judo, you know, the risks of going for something are pretty high because you get countered you're throwing your head so you figure some things that you're very good at in judo like i'm very good at ochi soto tai uchi mata right first right dominant position gripping force that

all day all night i could throw anybody with it just refine that refine that pressure forward forward forward right i'm trying to break through that mindset yeah does that make sense yeah yeah definitely definitely it does it does

it's a good match again it's a good match you know there's a I think there's a balance between like fitting fitting something

into a specific slot you know like making something fit there's a big value to that and in everything too in Jiu Jitsu too in Judo and Wrestling there's a value to having something that you're good at having something where you're you're moving everything in that direction funneling everything

that way and then on the other side there's a virtue to having uh being able to work with what you have in front of you and i think that that balance is important and i think hopefully you know our goal with this collaboration is going to be to give a little bit of both of those things to be able to funnel things properly to give a clear direction for what people want to do but then also to be able to have enough uh have enough of a broad view yeah so people can feel comfortable and confident to go like to take what's in front of them and work with that. So that's going to be,

that's going to be one of our goals for this, this collaboration. It's exciting. We're both excited about it. We should have a couple of like hashtags, you know, like, like, like,

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like, like, like, like, like, like, like, definitely what would be the jiu-jitsu version of that um yeah i mean turn throws turn throws don't work i mean that's a good one yeah yeah um how about jiu-jitsu is only no waza judo no waza yeah that's good is that one bjj is judo no waza i mean uh that pisses off a lot of people yeah great a lot of views though okay a lot of clicking a lot of let's do it let's do it we'll come up with a good one yeah yeah yeah we'll put it in the barren bowl.

Those don't work. I don't know. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. We'll keep it interesting. Judo barren bowl. Yeah.

It's like, yeah, that'd be interesting. All right. So we're going to do this thing. It's called Bridging the Gap.

It's going to be judo for jujitsu guys and jujitsu for judo guys in a very collaborative way. Right. And, you know,

I did a little jujitsu. You did a little judo. I did a, uh, you know, I did a little jujitsu, you do a little judo. I did a lot of judo, a lot of jujitsu. So it's going to be kind of a nice thing. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

And we're going to, we're going to talk about some concepts. We're going to talk about some principles. We're going to talk about some situations where, you know, you found yourself in that. I found myself in where we need a little bit more of the other person's stuff. And then we'll build out of

that and then um we'll show some techniques in the in there as well and it'll be a good time i'm probably gonna put this on the podcast too actually podcast situation do it great i'll put it on there you'll listen to it it'll be fun put on my youtube the video part you'll watch it in your comments but if you guys have any questions, ideas, we haven't filmed it yet. It's in the works, right? We're going to probably film it in the next few weeks. Was it May 19th or something now?

By June 1st, it'll be done. It'll be out there by mid-June. That's the plan. Hopefully, this video makes it out there within the next week or so. People can still kind of chime in and give their two cents yeah

we'll how does that spinning kick fit into all this yeah we'll use an appropriate filter for people's suggestions yeah

good thank you very much thank you thank you thank you