The Shintaro Higashi Show - Coaching Methods: Is the Ecological Approach the Best?

Episode Date: February 10, 2025

The ecological approach to coaching has sparked intense debates in the grappling community. In this episode, Shintaro and Peter break down what the ecological approach really means, how it differs from traditional coaching methods, and whether it’s truly the best way to train. They explore the balance between structured instruction and discovery-based learning, discussing how different learning styles impact a student's ability to absorb techniques. Shintaro also shares his perspective as both a coach and an athlete, weighing in on the controversy surrounding this training philosophy.(00:00:00) Introduction(00:02:36) What is the Ecological Approach?(00:04:40) How It Differs from Traditional Coaching(00:07:20) Why Is the Ecological Approach Controversial?(00:13:14) Making Training Fun for Different Learning Styles(00:20:33) Blending Ecological and Traditional MethodsIf you're in business, then you have customer churn. Whether you're building a startup, growing a mom & pop shop, or operating in a fortune 500 powerhouse, Hakuin.ai measures, predicts, and improves your customer retention. https://hakuin.ai

Speaking of teaching and learning that's what we're gonna talk about today learning stuff I learned style and this new hype about the ecological approach Is it the best is it not the best guys are arguing on the internet like this is why I think this is the best And there's all the people like this is why I think it's dumb And it's very like level one stuff like surface level stuff because is it the is it really good or is it not really good? There's not a really nuanced thing. You know what's your authority to speak on this you know hello everyone welcome back to the Shintaro Higashi Show with Peter Yu how are you doing Peter? pretty busy pretty busy you know I'm as you guys probably know I'm

trying to defend my dissertation in May and at the same time I'm on the job market you know trying to reach out to companies and also I'm a TA. I have to teach a class. Well, you gotta teach a class. It's like helping out. It's not, thankfully the class workload is not that much. So I'm talking in front of the class or no? Uh, I, so I don't give out, I get, I don't do the lecture.

I kind of like helping out with the office hours helping kind of organize this class You go up and down the hallway the side of the alleys and collect papers and stuff. Yeah, it's something like that Yeah, I sit in the back. Yeah Everyone's paying attention. You do some flirting with the Students the college girls. They don, they're not interested in me. No, no, I'm just an old fart that it's staying in the back. But you're actually in the classroom. Yeah, the professor asked me to come to life. What class is it that you're sitting in? It's called conversational AI. It's

actually a fun class. If you go to University of Michigan and you are majoring in computer science. I highly recommend it. It's more project based so you don't have any assignments. You just have to form a team and then build something using AI at the end. Interesting. That's a really cool class. I've always enjoyed these classes when I was an undergrad too. Oh, this is an undergraduate class. Mostly seniors.

Yeah, okay. Well, you be careful out there, Peter. You don't have to worry about that. But I think it's interesting. I think people get to learn how to work as a team and I think a lot of times that's more important than your coding prowess. So there's that and then as I said, a lot of job interviews. Great, great. Yeah, speaking of teaching and learning, that's what we're going to talk about today, learning styles. That's right, learning styles. And this new hype about the ecological approach, is it the best, is it not the best? Guys are arguing on the internet like this

Is why I think this is the best and there's other people like this is why I think it's dumb You know and it's very like level one stuff like surface level stuff because is it the is it really good? Or is it not really good? There's not a really nuanced thing. You know and you got a kind of You know, what's your authority to speak on this, you know, I'm actually Just cuz you're gonna do that too, you know what's your authority to speak on this you know I'm actually just cuz you're gonna do that too you know yeah I'm surprised that cuz you you have a master's in education I have a master's in education and an MBA from start I'm a double master person I'm highly qualified to talk about this more than a lot of people you know a lot of people asked me about it I was like I don't remember any of the research from the

actually doing the stuff but so let's let's kind of first describe what ecological approach is because I think a lot of times the debate and it's it's just like a circular debate because they're everyone's talking around it to each other because they are don't agree on what that exact thing is yeah no yeah I, yeah. I mean, I think like the standard is this guy, Greg Saunders. He's like a jujitsu guy in Connecticut. He has a gym out there. He's like, I don't teach like anybody else. I don't teach like this technique. I don't teach past the guard like this knee cut here, put your hand here, go here, then go for the armbar like this. And these are the details. He's like, I don't do any of that stuff. You know? So he actually doesn't teach any other moves? No he doesn't do any of that stuff he does a lot of

like gameplay kind of learning methods and he'll give certain prompts right like all right Ashigarami legs go on the inside legs go on the outside you know figure for the legs control the legs you have to have their legs in between yours okay and let's just go from control position to control position let's figure it out this is what it kind of looks like try it you know this is the goal kind of like that you know if it's a passing game it's like you know get to this position and go back into this position and go back you know okay so before for the purpose of this episode I'll just like paraphrase what you described just to define it.

The ecological approach is where there's no actual technique instructions, but the class is structured with mini games where students are encouraged to just figure something out. Pretty much it. And all right, which is a pretty big departure from how anything is usually taught, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, so what do you think about that? No, I think it's a necessary tool. For instance, like that can't be all you teach. Yeah.

That can't be all you teach. And then on the opposite of that, you can't just teach it the way that you've been taught back in the day and there's a healthy medium right which is like all right you put your hand here hand there and then you go like this and you go like that and your foot goes like this and then if he does this he goes like that and then you hook the leg and you throw him with an osorogare like every step of the way that doesn't work either it's very specific right yeah so it lacks the element of like improvisation you different reactions, things like that. So there's a healthy medium in between the two. You know what I mean?

So it's like, okay, let's just say for instance, gripping. We all know the sequences for gripping. You go for the sleeve, hands like this, you put the hand here, here. And then so you teach that basic stuff first already, has always been taught. Okay, now we're going to use this kind of an approach to kind of do a light gripping game. Yeah. And you're just going to focus on initial contact. I'm trying to grab the sleeve, I'm trying to put the hand on the lapel, you know not with the same hand and then the right hand is defensive so you're preventing the sleeve touching the lapel touch so

one hand is offense, one hand is defense. Okay we both know what we want because this is what the sequence should look like. So it's now doing both. Now you're doing both, right? But it's like, all right, I may just drill that sequence first for a few times so they kind of get the idea. You know what I mean? And then in between, it's like, all right, now they're going to come up with new ways. Like sometimes they'll look for the sleeve and I may parry it with this hand off and then go to the thing and it just Maybe happening it just might happen, you know, that's sort of like the best of both worlds

So it's not either or it's both. You know what I mean? I think so so you think So this guy I forgot his name but the the big proponent of the ecological approach in Connecticut He only he's on the extreme one Connecticut. He's on the extreme one end. He's on the extreme one end, yeah. Like you on your political spectrum, me on my political spectrum. We're still friends. I see. But why is it so controversial? I feel like everyone... I don't know if... It's like you think they're actually this big dichotomies though?

Kind of going back to the politics, like I think people... What you see in the media, you see all these extreme people, but then most people are in the middle like this. It's exactly what it is. And you know, this is the thing, right? You get a very charismatic guy like Greg Sounders to sound off and say everyone's teaching is stupid What I'm doing is smart, you know, and he's not saying that but it's like people can infer this right right I mean, and then maybe he's implying it a little bit. He's on YouTube He's on Instagram and he has all these little soundbikes that are like, wow, this sounds really cool. And yes, it's all true You know, but if he says like yes there is

this way and then maybe adding some of these ideas might be really good no one's gonna watch that people need to get a little bit rage-baited into commenting like no you know engage we didn't learn like that from Donna her and this guy and that guy like my instructor has taught it this way and this guy could kick your ass now all of a sudden the comment section is going crazy and the other side of spectrum is like who's this guy could kick your ass now all of a sudden the comment section is going crazy and The other side of the spectrum is like who's this guy? What has he done? No, this is really dumb This is dumb. That doesn't work, you know

And obviously now that side has a thing going and it's the classic like algorithm driven Sort of hype in this thing and it's sort of somewhere in the middle 1000% everyone should be somewhere in the middle Yeah, and then when you're trying to decide like how much of each side whatever it is somewhere in the middle 1000% everyone should be somewhere in the middle. Yeah. And then when you're trying to decide like how much of each side whatever it is you got to learn about your learning styles and everyone learns in a different way you know. I mean that's why it confused me when people especially BJJ folks started talking about the ecological approach. To me it was like

oh we've haven't we always have any always had this element to practice like you at your gym we always played this grip fighting game or you know like try to get two hands on then break try again you know it's a you will teach us the basic sequence and then if you don't basically say you have if you have no idea try for that try this and then figure it out. These are the goals. Yeah. Yeah. Gold based on it's like I kind of like the North Star guidance, right? Yeah, and it's like okay right versus right try to put your left hand on first, you know, right?

And then why and then I give him the why and then I give him a couple of hows and then the rest of it Just kind of figure it out. Yeah, and also you kind of giving them cues and everyone needs a different number of goals and number of things and some people have automated certain things some people make mistakes yeah job with the structure to kind of recognize this so this Greg Saunders gentleman yeah so obviously he's getting it's not he's popular not just because he's saying the ecological approach he's probably produced some good results right is it just by focusing on the I guess it depends on what you mean by good results I guess I mean like is he like a ADCC check? yeah is he producing a lot of like

athletes? no but you know like it's hard to say yes and no to that right because he's in Greenwich I think think, in a very, you know, Ritz-etown. You know what Greenwich is about. Yeah. That's Peter's people right there. So, you know, he's pulling from a different crop, right? So it's like a different, I say, oh, but I have heard people go to the class and then they're like, it was the most fun thing I've ever done.

It makes you get to so much more accessible and safe You know you playing these games. You're just kind of learning you're working out. You don't even know you're working out You know I walked out of there like understanding how to do a certain pass and it was the best class I've ever taken I've heard people say that about his class so there's something to that you know what I mean You know you know what that it's not those guys who are going to These classes shitting on them. It's usually the guys who are at the top who've went through the system already Yeah, right, and then people who follow those guys. You know I see it's kind of like when in a way took over Yeah Yeah, and you know back in the day even before in a way in the shin of hard times

It was like beat the athletes yell at the athletes make him do sprints every morning till they puke You know drive them into the ground put him through seven hour training days. Yeah. Yeah, it always like no No, it has to be fun people have to love judo if you don't love judo You won't produce good, you know great people and yeah Yeah He kind of had this completely radical different thing and all the people who came before him who were champions were like this is Disgusting you know and eventually little by little You look at the crop of champions now those people are champions underneath his

Right it takes 10 years 20 years, so yeah, it's tough to say like this Greg have does he produce any champions No, but it can he can you, you know, if he's... It may not even be his goal anyway. Probably not, you know, if he wants, you know... I see, so he's more about... So you know what that reminds me of? Like the way you describe Greg Saunders' approach is more like... And I play golf and I ski, and a lot of times when people say,

oh, if you want your kids to be in it, into it, don't try to just make it fun. You don't need to teach them all the form, just make it into games and then you have to have, you have to make your children like the sport. So I think for golf, I love my dad and whatnot, but he, when he tried to teach me golf back in the day, he had that traditional approach.

He would just be like, Hey, he'll take me to the range. He'd be like, just criticize me every single move. And they were just not fun. Cause I, all I wanted to do was just like hit the ball, you know? Yeah, nail it. Yeah. And I think ski too, like kids just want to go zoom down, but you know, you know? Yeah, nail it. Yeah, and I think, it's ski too, like kids just wanna go zoom down, but you know, you just teach them certain things. Oh, you have to turn so that it's, you know, it's safer so you can make it into the game. And I feel like it's, ecological approach is like baking Jiu-Jitsu for fun for adults. And it's the same for Judo too, you know, same exact thing goes for Judo. And I think you should play more games in judo

because doing actual run-dory is just so much more injury-prone. You know, we did a thing yesterday. It's like, all right, one person starts with dominant position and you're trying to cut the angle on the guy. Yeah. You know, and not going right to left, but then you're going right to left at a certain pace. Fake right, go left.

Fake left, go right. Two steps to the right. One step, fake to the right and go left. That kind of a thing. And then, all right, now we're adding snap-downs. Right, and then faking right, j to the right one step big to the right and go left that kind of a thing and then all right Now we're adding snap downs right and then faking right juking right left and snapping the person down Okay, the third portion is now you're gonna go into and then you're gonna lift the person, you know so I was like her though, you know, I showed the stuff the technique how it can look and I

Differentiated it for different levels and then it's like alright Let's play this little game and you know That's 15 minutes of learning every single person in the room engaged every single person in the room doing something as opposed to if I'm sitting there 20 minutes talking about a certain technique how to put my knee cut where you lose half the class, you know Yeah, there's people who learn like that though. All right. Yeah a little bit different learning styles, right? Yeah, we could talk about that too. You know, there's four main learning styles what are those visual auditory kinesthetic and linguistic oh yeah yeah I kind of get the idea but like so visual is like by watching yeah looking at pictures reading things like that mostly

remembering things by sight so when you're demonstrating the technique and people like watching like this those are the guys and then every now and then you get Guys who are listening to this podcast who get the most out of it And they just get everything that we're saying because they're auditory learners Maybe they're listening right now driving to the dojo, you know on Spotify or something like that and those guys Are auditory learners and there's people who listen to this stuff completely checked out Right and it's a combination of both, you know, all these different styles, right? But like, if you're not a visual learner at all, you know, and then you put a book in

front of a kid and then the kid's like jittery and he's the kinesthetic learner and now all of a sudden it's like, wow, this kid's really dumb. You know, that was what happened to me. You think you're a kinesiologic learner? Yeah, I'm definitely a tacked out kinesthetic interpersonal learner Yeah, right because there's interpersonal and intrapersonal learning styles as well And that's like sort of not the main ones but interpersonal obviously you learn through talking with people That's why people start teaching and then they're like, oh, yeah

They're figuring things as they're teaching and then get going back for that's why you start teaching and then they're like, oh yeah, they're figuring things as they're teaching and then going back and forth. That's why you see blue belts freaking teaching white belts and they're almost teaching themselves. I see, I mean, teaching someone is a good way to teach yourself actually. And then the intro personal learner,

like they learn in solitude. There's guys who do study groups and guys who go and sit in study cubicles and like no one talked to me you know what I mean so and then the this linguistic what what is that one I think verb maybe like I think that's more like reading reading yeah I think I said visual was reading but I think linguistic is more reading more reading yeah and then is like seeing pictures and stuff so I get confused sometimes. I had my masters like a long time ago you know. But you know it's like

I think those are good concepts so I see. And everyone has a combination of it. Yeah yeah. You know so if you're a very linguistic learner like like to read this stuff and you're intrap intra personal learner where you're like likes to be alone You know that ecological approach is not gonna really work great for you these games because yeah They don't want to be around other people they learn better by themselves They want to read the text so I hear guys sometimes these nerdy guys like hey Can you write me up a thing you know and that I can read you know all the stuff you went over oh you do get a you do get yeah yeah I have got multiple requests like that and the answer every time is no I'm not doing that I'm not sitting there like you have

to do I'm not doing it you know but maybe you should publish a book like your dad oh yeah I published a book before yeah the novel you know the dojo guide yeah oh not the novel dojo guy yeah maybe I'm man like actually you're all the theories behind your judo yeah man you know it takes a lot of effort to write both yeah yeah I see I see that but the tactile kinesthetic learner right yeah that person I mean you can be all those things, you're all these things. No one just learns from just one of these things, right?

So it's a combination of all these things. So if you're a very tactile kinesthetic learner where you do stuff and then they learn, and you're interpersonal learner where you're talking to the person, right? And as you're doing this, you get auditory cues, like, all right, you know, do this, do that, do this, do that, right?

Those people are gonna really thrive in this environment you know the ecological approach yeah yeah I don't even want to call it that because it's like a negative connotation I know oh really okay I mean in the community it's like you like controversial ice you know and then every gym you walk into sensei have you heard of the ecological approach I'm like yes I have yeah it's like it's like a fad I think it's fatty yeah and I think what you're also saying is it's not like a panacea like you're not this is not gonna like fix all the problems you have with your BJJ kind of thing. No but you know what man it could you know you're used to one teaching style the whole time and then you

walk into Greg Saunders class and be like, oh my god, this is the way, you know, how did I learn anything before? And this is the thing, you know, you learn one method, you know, and all the way to like intermediate level and you're not that good and then you get introduced to this new thing. You're gonna be like, whoa, this, this is the way, you know? You know, this is kind of a side point, but there's a pretty similar debate in AI too, about, so there's a concept called supervised learning, which is more like the traditional way of you like, teach the AI system every single thing. Like, this is the answer, just follow that, you know? And there's on the other spectrum, it's, I'm simplifying a you know and there's on the other spectrum. It's a

I'm simplifying a lot, but there's reinforcement learning where the you kind of set up the environment And they let the system kind of try a bunch of things and see what works best Think of like the chest engines. They that's how they learn yeah, but People have always criticized both sides, like supervised learning you know it's not as creative once you learn faster but it's not as creative it doesn't you know it lacks the edge but reinforced money a lot of time doesn't work when things get really complicated so you you told me how you got excited about DeepSig right right? Yeah, pretty cool.

DeepSig, I'm sure people have heard about it. What people are finding now is that you need both. So what DeepSig really did was you have to have some supervised training so that the AI system has some basic knowledge about the world. Then you can let it explore on its own so i think that's kind of why you're saying it with the bjj you can't just like judo too judo yeah bj judo or anything really you can't just have if you have all the time in the world i guess you can have the person just figure figure it out on own, but that's just not feasible.

No, you need both. So you have to bring them up to speed with some fundamentals and then let them explore. It's the most boring answer ever. You know, it's both, you need both. Just answers lie somewhere in the middle. It's a spectrum. You know, Sensei, is this better or that better?

It depends on the scenario. It always depends, you know, and it's kind of up to you. Like, you know, what are the variables here? You know, it's not the most exciting answer. The most exciting answer is this is the best thing ever. And you know, whatever you've been doing sucks. You know, that's what gets the views and clicks. Yeah.

Well, yeah, I think that's I think that's why I podcast. you know, people like podcast market. Yeah, discussion. Yeah. I'm worried about the future of the podcast. Well, if we get a job like a full blown job, nine to seven or something, I'm recalling, hey, Peter, it's Thursday at 11. Do you want to do an episode? yeah I have to figure it out I guess yeah we started this we've only done this when I was it we've only done this while I was a student while I'm a student yeah right so more flexibility yeah we'll figure it out figure it out but thank you to our sponsors first and foremost Hakuin.ai if you're a business you have churn if you have churn go to Hakuin.ai thank you very much Drew for sponsoring the podcast and we have the other guys Jason and Levan always thank you for your continued support

higashi brand.com please go check it out judo TV judo TV discount coach and Taro the parish grand slam just happened it was lovely yeah you know a lot of exciting stuff new rule sets. Yeah. Oh yeah, we gotta talk about that. We'll talk about that eventually. And yeah, please support us on Patreon and stuff and share this podcast, like this podcast. Do all these things to keep this thing going.

Right, Peter? That's right. Thanks, thank you guys for your support as always. Please support us so that yeah, we can keep doing it. And yeah, we'll see you guys in your support as always. Please support us so that we can keep doing it. We'll see you guys in the next episode.