The Shintaro Higashi Show - Dangerous Throws

Episode Date: December 27, 2021

It is an unfortunate truth that Judo has dangerous throws. Some are more dangerous than others. Some are more "situationally" dangerous. What are some of these dangerous throws? Can we make them safer? Tune in to find out! Please support us on Patreon if you can: https://www.patreon.com/shintaro_higashi_show. Any amount helps!

Hey guys, welcome back to the Shintaro Higashi Show with Peter Yu. We're going to talk about dangerous throws today, but first and foremost, thank you for supporting us on Patreon. The link is down below. Please support us. It helps us greatly. All right, right back to it, because I don't want to ramble too much about advertising. They've heard enough.

They've heard enough now. Yeah, they've heard enough. I'm sorry I've been rambling about that for a very long time now, but it helps us support the channel and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Okay. So dangerous throws. Tanya Toshi is the first one that comes to mind. Right. Why? Why? now but you know it helps us support the channel and blah blah yeah okay so dangerous throws tanya

toshi is the first one that comes to mind right why why that's a lot of people love doing it yeah why is it so dangerous it's everyone does it yeah it's such a intuitive throw too right right person turns grab them dump them backwards or fall down right Right? But it's very, very dangerous. Anytime when you have weight dropping downward, it's dangerous. Think about this. Weight dropping downward versus weight being lifted. Aha. That is the key. Think about Senagi turning, dropping your hips under, and lifting your opponent.

Right. And when they have no contact with the ground, you could whip them over. Right? It's like you use ground you could whip them over right it's like right use the leverage and you whip them over even uchimata you go underneath you lift them and then whip them over right right right ochi too it's like you're lifting that leg and then reaping that leg so now they're on one leg and then you're driving them tipping over backwards so there's no danger of getting some getting something getting caught or like yes being in a blocking and driving them through yeah take it out their base lifting and throwing right and on the counter side of that the dropping stuff right when you

lock your upper body and then you drop to the floor that that's the danger. Tani Toshi is the most dangerous. Because when you're angled off and you have that lane and you sit behind them, that's great. That's perfect. Person's going backwards. The person's leaning back.

You sit right there, shoot that leg through and he falls over your leg. Intuitive. But if they turn or you don't have the right angle and you sit into that person's front knee knees popping and he's popping and not even the front knee too yeah if the weight's on the back leg and i'm driving into this person i lock his upper body up okay and i drop my body weight down and his leg gets caught underneath and he can't

clear that leg because i'm not really reaping that leg right that leg's gonna fold in a funny way and it's gonna break so in it this tiny otoshi is actually not allowed at your gym right yes we ban it for like brown belts and below oh i mean brown belts kind of do it yeah brown belts kind of do it sometimes depends on who it is who's competing because you can't just like not ever do it right but if you're like brown belts going with green belts not allowed black belts going against the green belts not allowed yeah black belt black belt it's like i'll say hey careful careful or cautious cautious or whatever it is but then when they do it and it's clean it's like okay that was a good example and then when it's kind of like you know half as uh just scarily what's the word haphazardly haphazardly yeah haphazardly

that's a great word right haphazardly like dropping and you know trying to twist the person down what i'd be like that's bad bad. What is that? That's garbage. Don't do that. That's dangerous. And, you know, I feel very strongly about this. So then the, you know, like you said, it's such an intuitive throw. And then in a way, because it's so intuitive, it is in a way a high percentage throw. It's a high percentage throw for beginners right beginners

i see so there's the learning curve situation here if you're brand new you're an athletic person and the person comes against you and the other person learned two techniques turn throws and those turn tech throws are not very good uh-huh and you're a great athlete you could kind of intuitively like just wrap them, grab them, and just pull them over your leg and dump them. So it works pretty good. But now you get that beginner going against a higher level person, that's obviously not going to work.

Right. I see. And usually it has to work together with a big turn throw, especially right side, left side. That's where the Taniyatoshi really is beautiful because the misdirection of going forward and back because you're turning into the same direction. Not into each other, but towards the same direction.

So it's like going here, going here, going to the other direction, going to the other direction, going to the right, going to the left, right? Taniyatoshi turn throw, Taniyatoshi turn throw. You ever watch tennis? I do sometimes. Yeah. Not an expert on it this side go to this side go to this side the other side right right right crowd him over here crowd him over here crowd him over here a backhand

same thing for tanya toshi yeah it's great in that context so that so i have a there's this japanese guy at the gym i'm going to right now he's great he he he played uh he did judo in college in japan was it uh yep and man he's just such a he's a lefty and he uses hips so well like he hip checks me all every time yeah so i maybe this we discussed uh my strategy about uh with him right with you and so the other day he taught me so much with tanyo toshi because he was beating me to the grips and now i'm like maybe i should do the do what you just said like force him try to like maybe also go to and then do tanyo toshi but then now i kind of have a mental block almost because you it could be such a good thing it was kind of drilled into me while

i was at kbi you know yeah so i don't know like that's the thing like what do you think about this like this kind of balance between being safe and then like adding tanyo toshi effective tanyo toshi into your game yes like it is a good throw it is a great throw and there has to be some sort of awareness even when you're avoiding it and drilling it and not doing it right so when you're right versus left if you have winning position with your hand on the post strong chin and they can't create proximity because of that barrier right and you decide when there is proximity then when they even though they fake forward and they're about to shoot backwards if there's barrier they can't close that distance so they can't hit that tanya

toshi so it's like what if we encounter someone who's a strong lefty who does tanya toshi well with turn throws in a good contextual way not just like spamming drops right right yes that's good but everything that i teach that goes back to positional advantages right still hold true you just said yourself you're getting out gripped that's the problem yeah it's not that you've never encountered tanya toshi before that's partially the problem too right i gotta I got to admit that. But if you're consistently winning position and having a barrier fighting for that position, you're not going to be susceptible to it.

You know what I mean? Right, right. But for you to do it to him, that's another story. You have to drill it because you have to be good at doing it. Right? And then I do have the guys drill it in Nagekome. That way they know what it feels like yes yes yes i see and then they fake forward and then like cheating the back foot to create the

proper angle this is a good angle this is a bad angle if you're starting behind the person right side left side then you'll have a little bit more of a leeway if you're on the outside position you have proximity to the outside lane right because if you're on the inside going behind and going to the outside is a little bit more difficult right so it's not a position yeah go ahead oh no i was just gonna note that it's not a blanket ban at the at kbi it's not on tiny otoshi no no yeah guys hit it the other day guys hit it the other day and i even saw like a yellow belt hitting on a green belt the other day and i was like hey man that is a band throw you know this but you went really really slow so as i was like i appreciate that uh but no you didn't do you did something that was not allowed

really and he's like yeah i know it was like i was about to get bombed and i was kind of like okay and it's like a case by case right it. Right. It's not a blanket ban, but whenever we do have sometimes like, you know, pre-pandemic, four guests, five guests on the mat or something like this, and they're there for the first time, you know, hey guys, just so you guys know,

Tanya Toshi is banned. Yeah, just to make it simple, right? Because we don't know how their Tanya Toshis are. And it's like, people think it's like an abomination but there's gyms across the globe that bet especially like here's a good one like john donahue he's a famous jujitsu coach right and right in the room with uh the henzo gracie jujitsu program like donahue was like yo no tanya toshi in the room he's like no tanya toshi no

kaniba sami in the room you could drill it you could train it but you can't do it when you guys are going live rolling so it's not a crazy thing it's not a crazy thing you know i've seen it in other gyms before that i've been at like hey don't do this move it's just the judo people haven't really caught on to it yet that's that's the thing because that thing it's like they think it's uh yeah it's it's actually you know now i think about it it's actually quite interesting because well maybe not maybe it's in theme with like you know how judo a lot of judo people don't like like grab bands they think it's like taking away yeah the martial or like it's becoming sportsified yeah maybe that's why yeah yeah there's advantages

to that too yeah all right so that olympics yeah everybody in the world watches olympics right that's a big advantage for that yeah you know in the popularity so that's banned most and then you mentioned you mentioned kanima sami and when you're talking about dan har and that is a classic yeah when you're throwing your weight onto somebody and then going down yeah right there's weight going downward and you can't stop yourself from going down because gravity takes over there's a tipping point right if you're going in for uchimata and you're going underneath and you're lifting it's like up you know and you're going underneath and you're lifting, it's like, oh, you know what? I don't like it. You kind of bail out.

Right. You can just drop. You can bail out. You can escape. You can just go in, come back out. Tanitoshi, you commit and you're diving forward. And that's it. Yeah, you're falling.

Yeah. And so it's sometimes not that you didn't catch the right angle. Maybe there is a clear path straight behind his legs. the right angle maybe there is a clear path straight behind his legs but as you're going maybe that person goes for an ochi and puts that leg underneath you and now you can't stop yourself from going down onto that knee oh so you sit into that knee and the knee is gone kanye uh kanye basami too because you're throwing your body onto the person right drop senagi is similar idea but the risk of sitting on the knee is a little bit less although it does happen i've seen it before oh man yeah kari wasami that's a classical it's like i write band in all competitions yeah after that after that famous incident right like

someone went for it against Yamashita. There's a video. I don't remember the exact match, but yes. It's gruesome. And they said they broke his knee, basically. Yeah. It's the same idea, though, right? Like you jump into the leg and then you... People say, oh, there's a safe way to do it.

And then like a lot of Sambo guys like doing it or something. There's a safe way to do everything, then like a lot of sambo guys like doing it or something because it's a safe way to do everything for sure right but then who's doing it a great athlete that's very aware of a person's safety yes then it could be done like i could work out with uh some guys that i know that are great that i work out with consistently and those guys can go for the stuff i mean it's relatively safe relatively safe right right but i wouldn't trust it on some random guy coming into the club that's wearing a black belt that's like yo i want to work out with you shintaro i'm like okay you know he's gonna try to dive in into my knees i'm aware of it always that's why i fight for position to keep him out there i see i see even though i'm like a shorter squadier person and i probably should get close really hard and

then just use my weight and thing i like keeping them away because just in case they're like a shorter squatty or person and i probably should get close really hard and then just use my weight and thing i like keeping them away because just in case they're like a tanya toshi person i'm like developing sensei judo a little bit right self-preservation judo also you throw in your uh enforcers first to figure everyone that's right that's right. Go in there, please. Figure this man out. So that's the theme. You're a Taino Toshi and Kaniba Sama. And then drop Senonagi to a certain extent. Because you're dropping and your gravity takes over your weight. The drop Senonagi is not dangerous.

It is dangerous. But it's not as dangerous on the knee. Now, because you're pulling the person down a lot of the time, say Otoshi, it's their head going into the ground that's dangerous. Right. Runage is dangerous too. Yeah. Damn, everything is dangerous. Well, let's kind of go in order then.

Let's see. Let's talk about runage because that's a little different. Because it's not, you're still lifting. This is a lifting throw. You're still lifting. Yeah. And you could do it safe in the dojo where you lift and you don't put them down you can just lift them and it's like you got it kind of like this and then you let them struggle

let them lift and then you keep them there and then don't finish but sometimes you people finish it right right it's like how safely can you go how high of an amplitude are you going to give that other person when you go to uranage you could lift hike him and lock him on your upper chest and then squat down slowly and then as they're tipping over then dump them from a very low place on the on the thing but no one has really that control to do that like i did that recently uh- recently to a guest. I did a nurunage, but it was low to the ground. Because I locked him up high and I sat and squat down, made sure that his legs were clear and then dumped him. It was literally like three feet off the ground almost where he launched. And then, of course, I gave a little bit of juice at the end.

But, you know, I went over my shoulder and then I didn't arch him to where he landed on his upper back. It's super safe. Like there's clips of it online somewhere right as opposed to the guy who doesn't know and they just wrap him and then lift him and then just back arch as hard as they possibly can like that's super dangerous because you can land on it's not like you can't really properly break fall because you're getting yeah you gotta just yeah it's very difficult it's not the traditional like tuck the chin slap the mat especially if your arm is trapped or something like this right right right yeah you almost have to like relax chin talked and then yeah it's dangerous to go with yeah it's dangerous do you teach it so they do little by little i've been teaching it and some of the guys know especially the people who are

interested we'll get out the crash man and we'll be like hey let's drill some of this stuff this is a way you can drill it safely this is a modified version this is also uh run again it's kind of a big component of your uh new proposed system of uh uh no turn judo that's right no turn judo system yeah eventually i'm gonna eventually film that i guess yeah and then what what did you say what what uh you mentioned a lot of throw just now a dangerous one yeah or maybe i mean it's remembering so day oh yeah so day yeah that's right so that your arms are trapped a lot of the times ah yeah it's remembering. Sode. Oh, yeah, Sode. Yeah, that's right. Sode.

Because your arms are trapped a lot of the times. Ah, yeah. But it's more dangerous for beginners. Right. I mean, Judo's dangerous, period. The whole game is control. Control on the other person's body. Right. When you control them fully, when you're in full control, you can lift them, and then you can control how they land.

How hard they land. Yeah. Do they land on their they land yeah they land on their head they land on their back you control and then if you lose your balance you have less control so then they might land on their shoulder if you're going for a throw and it's not really locked in tight the person could twist out of it therefore you control them a little bit less right but if you could lift the person now you're in much more control right and if you could lift the person, now you're in much more control. Right. Because you can dump them in that way.

Yeah, yeah. Because if I don't have my hands on the person, I don't control them at all. Maybe you can control them with your words, right? Stop. Maybe they stop. I don't know. But like you're locked in, you have good hand position, then the person's fixed. His head can't move. His body is restricted.

You're controlling them and then you want to keep that control going that's right right and when you're in a position where the other person has less control because they're dropping onto a leg and now they don't control how they land or whether the leg is underneath them or not that makes it dangerous if the arms are locked up and then they're going for sode and you don't control right how you land on your head because you're completely at the mercy of your partner that can be potentially dangerous too so all of it is dangerous judo is just a dangerous sport it's kind of nuanced in a way because like you said if the tori like the person who is throwing has complete control yeah if the toy is good and uh you know safety oriented i guess uh then he or she would just uh control the throw and then put put the uke down

nicely and that goes out the window when uke resist tries to resist because then it's like taking away the control from the toy but at the same time you mentioned like sometimes that's not even always true because if the toy has complete control like arms uke's arms are not available for breakfalls that could also be so it's like a mutual yeah that's uh one of the philosophies we talked about right mutual benefit yeah everyone has to be yeah aware of that yeah so stuff yeah so then we've covered and then some of the like you said judo itself judo is inherently kind of dangerous so even the classic throws like you we mentioned saving i judo is inherently kind of dangerous. So even the classic throws

Like you we mentioned say we now get drops even like it's dangerous. But also How about how about throws are like also to guard that everyone learns in the beginning? Yeah, also to Gary is Yeah, just chopping at the knee right scary man because the knee is a hinge joint right you know and it hinges back and forth and then the hip makes it rotate to the side and then if you chop in from the side acl is such a common injury right especially a lot of times in judo you're standing on one leg think about it when you're doing ochigari you're on one leg the other person's on one leg it's you know when you're like kids you're just hopping on one leg and you're slapping each other knocking each other off that's essentially what it is yeah yeah yeah right then you have old brittle joints and you're twisting and turning on that knee and then the

person's chopping at it now and your upper body's fixed and they're throwing their weight into you it's like oh man and someone who's the philatic and dynamic like ripping through these movements oh man judo's the worst man judo's the worst but it's the best too like it's so fun you know uh one time i heard this thing it's like what makes play fun it's the thrill it's the risk right right you're playing with risk reward constantly can i do it body control how much of the risk right right you're playing with risk reward constantly can I do it body control how much of the risk do I control and you that's yeah I mean that that's how you you know get better too and so what when you're chopping and so you know that the also to

guard you teach it's like you uh you basically it's like a common in the uh kenkaio situation left versus right situation where you kind of reach for the far leg so you have to kind of uh trap the far leg and then drive through to finish the osutogari that's i feel like when a lot of the injuries could happen so what will be a way to mitigate the risk it really is block the leg drive the head over the leg as opposed to head is fixed pull the leg in towards you so it's very very different there's like a nuanced difference there right if the person's going for a soda and they think osorogari it's reap and then they're chopping at the knee or if i've never thrown this person i'm about to throw them i get excited nah i go ah it's very hard to fine-tune this especially like in the stress of things being

flying and just tension and the stress of randori so you know it's it's hard to say it's like you really have to like spend a lot of time doing nagakomi and doing randori at you know it's hard to say it's like you really have to like spend a lot of time doing nagakomi and doing randori at a slower pace to kind of feel it out that's why it's a long-term longevity thing you know for judo everyone's like hey how can i get as good as i can as fast as i can it's like yes you can do this and do that but the risks become astronomically higher if you're taking that approach right right if you're taking that approach. Right, right. If you're always full throttle. Yeah.

Yeah. It's a tough sport. It's a really tough sport. Everybody who's listening, who does it, I have a lot of respect for you guys. Special breed. Yeah. Special breed. And the people who are at the top, not at the top, but the people who are in teaching positions and people who competed in, I made it in that sense right they have this like survivorship bias right but a lot of those guys who were kind of born up and bred into it uh so the real people who have the guts are the people

who are picking this up later in life and can you be good at it later in life yes you can you can do it safely but it takes doing it safely and having longevity in the sport and those are the real people who are like wow i really do respect because i had i didn't have a choice right it's like i grew up into it so it's like i didn't know any better that this is dangerous right right right guys breaking their legs with tanya toshi you know when i'm like 11 13 like around the dojo and we're like bad that's just the nature of judo you know it's a nor yeah yeah it's like normal like oh if you can't handle that don't do judo that's partially why judo didn't grow right because it's like because uh the it's it's

tough on the adult hobbyist body yes and then it's the survivorship bias of the people who are teaching it oh i went through it i made it it's safe it's safe if i could do it you could do it it's like yes but really like you had a dad who did judo you had right you got lucky also yeah not getting injured yeah maybe tons of people wouldn't make it you know there's tons of people for every guy that's standing up there that i quote unquote made it yeah a tons of people wouldn't make it you know there's tons of people for every guy that's standing up there that i quote unquote made it yeah a thousand other people that didn't make it right and that bias is sort of what destroys the next generation uh-huh taiyatoshi's safe i've done it for years right that's anecdotal right right right gotta look at the hardcore data yeah i hear i hear

people saying things like uh judo is the safest sport on this planet for kids i'm like no it's not like what are you talking about right we talked about in the previous episode about uh you know how you ensure safety in kids classes i mean they take yeah it's a dangerous sport it can be dangerous but yeah yeah but yeah so those are some of the uh dangerous throws and judo i guess the key point is that any any throw could be dangerous if not done properly any though even like front headlock stuff in wrestling. Dangerous. Yeah. Front headlock, lock it, back arch, take the neck, crank it.

Dangerous. Right. Arm bars, dangerous. Everything, dangerous. But what is it dangerous? It's risk and reward, you know. Always, always, always. Driving a car is very dangerous. Right.

But you get a lot of benefit out of it. You can go get yourself a burrito. Burrito, yeah. Did we come up with that at the same time? I know. What's up with that? Jesus. Finishing each other's sentences.

There we go. Sentences. Sentences. That's the dangers, yeah. But the important point is that you can mitigate this risk by being in control, thinking about the other person, mutual benefit, right? Going slow and then making sure that you get the throw before you actually do it full throttle. Yep.

So, yeah, that's about it about the uh dangerous throws any other things forgot to mention i'm probably forgetting stuff but i do want to talk a little bit about like weight discrepancies and size discrepancies and someone takes a double leg and not sprawling because you have to take into account the physicality of the person you are working with right right harai makikomi by itself may not be too dangerous if you have two lightweights going at it right harai makikomi when there's a 40 50 pound weight difference very dangerous oh i've i've been on the receiving end of that. Yes. I got thrown on a high market coin, wrapped.

Bigger guy. I remember. Yeah. I know who it is. How many pounds does he have on me? He's like 240 at the time. Oh my, 240. Holy cow.

He was probably like 160 at the time. Yeah. That's a good 80 pound difference. And he landed on me and then something happened to my like chest muscle like the upper body muscle and i couldn't move for a good month that's true yeah it's dangerous yeah so same thing falling body weight right he doesn't control how hard he lands on you because there's just bodies just falling on top of your body yeah but you have to take into account body size, body weight, person's injured.

You know, if you have a knee problem, Osoto is very dangerous then. Mm-hmm. That's right. If you have a knee problem. So it's like depending on the body type. That stuff matters. Yeah, health. Yeah.

So all the context matters. health yeah so all the context matters so yeah hopefully uh this episode will help you guys you know practice judo in a more safe way um and thanks for listening and we'll see you guys in the next episode