The Shintaro Higashi Show - Dating in the Dojo

Episode Date: September 20, 2022

This is a fun (maybe controversial even?) one: dating in the dojo! Is it OK, or should you avoid it at all costs? In this episode, Shintaro and Peter share their thoughts on how people should approach dating in the dojo. Please support us on Patreon if you can: https://www.patreon.com/shintaro_higashi_show. Any amount helps!

hello everyone welcome back to the shintaro higashi show with peter you today we're going to talk about an interesting topic dating in the dojo to do or not to do well i um yeah have you had any experience with that peter i've never done that yeah so i don't know it's all kind of all new um i don't know what i what i could really say because i don't have personal experience and you know i don't have any personal experience in that. But surely you've been in the dojo and you're like, oh man, that guy's the sweat.

The way it runs down is the crick of his chest. I feel about that whenever I see Joyce, that's why. No, but it's common, right? Yeah, it is very common.

I've seen it very, you've seen it happen many times and I've seen it happen, know from a sensei's perspective like a teacher's perspective you know with between students right sometimes it's student teacher right sometimes that kind of thing happens you know we're all human right right that's right you know you can't kind of overcome the laws of human attraction that's true i mean it is it is true it's it's kind of ripe for that kind of uh relationships to blossom the dojo because you know you're it's a yes i've seen that a lot in in soccer you know like recreational soccer yeah i've seen that a lot into proximity thing yeah proximity and it's a comfort thing you belong to this community yeah so it's immediately disarming because it's like, hey, we both belong to this community.

And then if you're part of that community, there's this sort of validation from the community, right? Like this person's safe. This person should be trusted. Right. You know, we all go out to eat and hang out. We all train together, especially in a sport that trust is so important. Like close contact, physical contact sport. And I'm talking like judo wrestling bjj

we're gonna bunch all this in the same thing because i think right right so um yeah i mean i mean the ultimate test is like how do you actually it's bound to happen well not bound but like it's it happens often so there should be How do we handle those situations, I guess? That's what you want to talk about. Is it? Yeah, I just want to talk about it a little bit. I just want to talk freely about this stuff. I thought it would be an interesting topic to cover.

Because it's got to happen. If you're listening to this, you're driving to the dojo, and if you're a male, there might be a good girl at the dojo that you're kind of interested in. Sometimes you do uchikomi with them, and you tell a joke, and laugh you know you're trying to find the right moment to ask them for a smoothie after practice like that kind of stuff right happens and vice versa i guess the vice versa right now and there's a huge discrepancy in the ratio of male to females in the dojo usually yeah i've only known like a handful of dojos that had equal amounts of women and men.

Oh, there are dojos with almost like an equal number of males and females? Not really. I was surprised by that. Okay, so then, yeah, well, so I mean, you want to talk freely. I actually have no idea where this is going so i'm just gonna let you all right let's start with this peter yeah have you ever had a dojo crush no i never i've never had a dojo crush you know i mean just yeah like have you witnessed a dojo crush what do you mean like when a student the student i i guess i mean i'm some i know some people end up going on dates

yeah so i guess in that sense i've seen it yeah do you think it's okay it's okay as long as they are both down to do it i guess i mean that's the fine line though is it you know i mean what they're all mostly we're talking about adults here so i mean what can you say if they're yeah this is between two adults 18 plus and let's just say like age appropriate okay yeah i'm not talking like an 18 year old like senior in high school versus a 37 year old grappler i don't know why i said i'm 37 because i'm 37 i'm not like right yeah in general right like it's creepy right those age gaps kind of matter yeah yeah because one party has a lot of experience the other party doesn't have a lot of experience power dynamics and all that we're not talking about those yeah we're talking about adult to adults to adults yeah and

let's just talk about equal and skill level too just because like that power dynamic and the natural hierarchy of the dojo comes into play as well so we're going to address that later right so i think the you know i've seen that a lot like when the beginners come in and then they start making new friends and then you know it's kind of natural to go out after and then kind of talk about things and they help each other out i guess and then yeah yeah i've seen those happen yeah i i think i think that's fine but so as as long as they are you know down both down to do it i guess i get i get really forbidden i mean what what about you i mean one thing i guess is like aftermath i mean that kind of happens when any kind of friend group right like if yes if two

people in the same same same friend group start dating, sure, it could be fine, but then not all relationships last forever. That's true. And then once, once they break up, the group may fracture. Yeah. You know? So I generally say, right, if you could go elsewhere and then date elsewhere, that's ideal. Yeah. And you know, when I see like dudes in the gym still like, oh, you know, there's a woman here and blah, blah, blah.

It's like, hey, man, this is not the place for that. Yeah. If you want to meet women, go take dance class. I've always said this. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So obviously, because the women are the minority in the room and if they're there to meet men for some reason. Right. Then let them take the initiative. Don't be the guy that's if they're there to meet men for some reason, right?

Then let them take the initiative. Don't be the guy that's going to take the initiative and go all over it. Like, that's not your place to do that. You know what I mean? And do you really want to, I don't want to say shit where you eat. But yeah, if it doesn't work out, it's going to be awkward. Yeah. I've seen also like people leave the dojo.

Yes, I've seen a beginner woman go on three or four dates with three or four dudes in the room and I you know there was one woman responsible for like five guys quitting I remember this and they weren't just like beginners that was like egregious so charming and friendly you know exactly like you know even coming into that like i already had the experience to know like i should discourage this behavior i see so you and i did discourage it a little bit i was like come on guys guys you know like this is not the go freaking take dance class man seriously go take ballet if you want to meet chicks like this is not the place to meet chicks this is a place for you to grapple with yeah you know what i mean but you can say the same thing about like oh the dance classes are for dancing no but because men are the minority oh i see i see so

you're saying like i see i see then okay then yeah kind of i don't know if my logic is i'm probably gonna get called, maybe even canceled for this. No, but it's like in my gym, if I'm running the dojo, do you really want to complicate things? And then like, all right, let's see how many single dudes are in here. Like competitively in terms of numbers, like it just doesn't work for you. You know what I mean? And naturally, if you're a beginner in anything, you're going to be attracted to people who are experts

in the same thing that you're interested in. Right, right. If I am into rock rock climbing like i'm obsessed over it you know what i mean i'm going to naturally gravitate to the people who are experts who could help me yeah yeah right and now throw in the fact that there's a woman that i'm attracted to who is subjectively attractive and she's taking some sort of interest in me helping you yeah that's generally like right now i'm taking but like i'm just saying like yeah it's natural to develop sort of that affection right but then you're saying there's admiration and respect already yeah usually you have to earn those things through conversation when you go on a first date on hinge or something right

what do you do for a living i do this i do that i'm interesting i'm funny here's a joke haha like respect me you gotta earn those things but with like the belt levels it already comes with it because it's embedded i guess with the rock yeah a lot of activities so you can kind of show instead of yes instead of like having to convince someone with words yes and the big problem is the hierarchy, the power dynamic of I'm this belt, you're this belt. I'm already bigger than you, stronger than you. I have the skill level. Yeah.

And the skill that you're trying to obtain is to hold the other person down. It kind of gets weird. Yes. Okay, I see. Especially, right, when the people in the room are competing over one person. I see. Especially, right, when the people in the room are competing over one person. I see.

The weird game theory stuff going on. A lot of weird game theory stuff. So generally, I discourage it. I see. How do you discourage it? Do you tell people explicitly after a practice? Yeah, I was like, go take dance class you pull pull off that but i i guess from the sensei's perspective it is different because you have to keep the group cohesion going yeah and then you know you want to develop sort of a

community feel to where everyone goes out after everyone has the thing and depending on how old your sensei is and whether the person the teacher in charge uses that place as sort of their own social outlet as well right yeah they might be involved in that community or not involved at all right i used to be more involved when i was yeah you know in my late 20s when you were around yeah right and i was closer in age with the type of people who would go out and have dinner afterwards yeah which complicates things uh but but now you can i you know yeah like like my daughter is a byproduct yeah yeah very happy byproduct yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and yeah you know what i mean yeah but like the older i got the more you aged out of it yeah you aged out i aged out yeah you can't do that forever you know but you still see it on the side like the friday night crew that goes out and have dinner whatever it is and then you know some

people you kind of know by the way they behave in the room i see right and then if they're kind of being a little bit aggressive there's creepy behavior going on i will address it yeah that's actually yeah like don't be a freaking creep or like why are you always working out with her man you know what i mean and i will call it out to just let them know i said that it's recognizable yeah yeah yeah i was like dude you don't have a girlfriend. Like, you know, like what's going on here.

Right. So it just puts there like, Hey man, I'm freaking watching dude. You know? Yeah. I see. I see that.

That's a, you're in a very precarious position, I guess. It, as a sense that you have to, it's not just about teaching judo all the time. You have to learn a lot of different things. Yeah teaching judo all the time you know yeah yeah yeah yeah so but you know if you're like in the market and you develop a crush on somebody

you know you watch them do a baron bolo and it's just adorable the way they do it you know and it's like oh my god yeah and you could you know have a conversation just don't be a creep about hey can you show me that move or hey you know what was that was so nice or like hey you're so good or you know throwing a nice compliment here and there you know obviously don't be like looking at them the whole time but like you want to be sort of in their orbit you know like sort of on the outskirts not like staring out and blatantly you know but doing your own thing you're there to do great you're doing your own thing, you're there to do great. You're doing your own thing. But then, oh, shoot, we're in each other's orbit. Hey, you're here.

Might as well work out, right? Hey, that was great. Ultimately, it's not. Yeah, I don't think it's any different than any other social circles. You have to be respectful. And, you know, if the other person's not up for it don't push it you know yeah the issue with i think a lot of the times with like i'm specifically going to talk about men because i'm a male and then you know it's a male dominated industry

yeah you spend your whole life doing grappling things uh like grappling dudes do uh join the wrestling team in high school you hang out with a bunch of wrestlers you lift weights you go to the gym you join a judo gym or jujitsu gym you're just grappling all day and night uh uh right yeah and so maybe like a blue belt or something or like a green belt in judo and you just don't feel it's the right place to do this because you're sort of like you know lower end of the pack when it comes to the hierarchy of the room and now all of a sudden you've put in your time you spent your whole life around dudes and you're climbing that world where you develop this skill that you're proud of yeah right and people look to you as a leader they look at you and they're like wow this guy is the man right and now all of a sudden this

cute person comes in doesn't know anything it's like hey i got you let me show you some of this stuff and there's that immediate social validation of everyone in the room looking to this person as a leader right uh-huh it's sort of natural uh-huh it's kind of like the natural that's the power dynamic the power imbalance yeah but that person has spent majority of time in this world of men not just men right but like this yeah world you know i mean that person probably never took a dance class yeah you know i? That person probably has more male friends than female friends. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Their outlook may not be balanced. Yes. Yeah. Their outlook may not be balanced, and then their approach is going to be a little bit, what's the word? Brazen? Brash? I don't know. It's not going to be very refined and smooth.

Yeah. Yes. Right? So that could come off creepy too, you know? Yeah. What do you do about that? You got to practice. Mr. Smooth.

You got to practice. But yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, it's always an interesting dynamic. And it's not very obvious. But I'm sure there's gay dudes doing jujitsu and judo yeah 100 yeah i mean and they probably have a similar thing yeah you know what i mean but now it's dudes to dudes you know i know some of you guys are gonna be uncomfortable hearing this but like yeah that's probably happening uh-huh right yeah it's kind of a similar thing yeah i mean i mean yeah like i said two adults yeah that could happen

you know yeah yeah and then if you want to meet people on the thing right in your field you could always take the instagram route instagram route yeah meet people outside of your gym. Oh, huh? Like through Instagram? Like apps, you'd say? Yeah, apps, Instagram. I don't really want to go down this path. I'm going to go freaking... It's not even going to be a jukebox. It'll just be too weird.

Yeah, yeah. But yeah, the last one is like teacher to student. Yeah. And generally, that's regarded as egregious generally it's very frowned upon uh-huh you know what I mean yeah he's the the power dynamics I guess yeah too much yeah yeah I don't I don't have a lot to say about that yeah okay and then um yeah well so the real question is is it okay to date someone in the dojo yeah it's it's i mean i ultimately i don't think i can say it's as long as both parties are okay you know yeah what is what am i to say

anything about that but there's it's like morally defensible yeah yeah it's more complicated and generally it's discouraged and frowned upon but you know sometimes the there's matters of the heart and it is the matter of the heart you know what i mean yeah yeah i'm not saying go and date someone in your gym i'm not saying that you know yeah i mean if you're saying if you if it is to happen you know then it could but just know that i mean it's the common core common sense you have to be respectful you know then they'll don't be creepy you know yeah how about this one you're ready for this one what joining the dojo boyfriend and girlfriend and husband and wife i've seen those i think that's fine is it doing they're doing a hobby together no i guess so i don't i

haven't seen any issues with it really yeah i mean that's i think that's that's even tougher i think man tougher in what way oh yeah yeah it's the toughest bro could you imagine never having grappled coming in there and be like oh honey like i'm i'm a flutic you know like i could freaking i watch ufc i could beat anybody up okay and i'm so strong and know, like you're the weakest guy in the room. Well, it's gotta be like the most shocking thing for someone's ego. No. Yeah. If you have the ego,

you gotta, you gotta put the toxic masculinity or ego out the door, I guess. Yeah. But if I was a, if I was a woman, which I'm not, but if I was,

you know, if I identified as female, like a woman, and then i had a boyfriend and then he was like yo let's go to the gym the jiu-jitsu gym or judo gym and let's go together and it'll be great yeah i'm gonna kill everyone there and then he was squirming under some body half his size i don't know i might i might lose respect for that man. You know what I mean? Like, there's such a big risk there. No? Well, I don't think not everyone cares about that.

Okay. Yeah, I don't think anyone really cares. I don't think a lot of people care about, like. You sure about that? I don't know, man. I live my life a little bit differently now. Well, I think, you know, for us men, i think we were kind of conditioned to care about that that's very true yeah i am any smaller i'll get no dates i i i yeah like for a lot of reasons i

i also feel competitive i have that ego which i need to you know keep it in check you know i shouldn't be like that uh it's not a competition but i think in a lot of ways uh a lot of women don't have that and don't really care that you know that's true yeah that's yeah there's so many other factors that you know usually are higher up on the list yeah like education humor yeah like a compatibility income could be a one you know for a lot of people but yeah i don't think athletic prowess is uh this is like the most triggering episode ever that we've ever done we get so many comments on discord oh my god yeah well you know what i don't get either it's like when you go to the gym right usually? Usually it's like 95% men. And they linger in the locker room and they're talking.

And it's like, yeah, it's great. You know, I came from work today. You know, this is my evening. You know, I get to go home and like the kids are asleep if they have kids. And it's like, yeah, it's my, you know, away from the wife today. You know, like I hear these kinds of conversations all the time. Right? So when I see like a guy coming in,

it's like, oh, we're going to join, like, with my wife. We're going to do judo together. I'm like, wow, that's so, like, against the grain. Like, you're such a small minority. I feel like a lot of men just say that as, like, a joke, though. Like, you know, I don't know. We kind of tend to pump it up a little

I guess like newly met weds are usually like this a little bit yeah I see hey let's learn something together

yeah and then Peter's holding him down and making him squeal you know what I mean like yeah right

well I mean but it might help with their relationship who knows you know what I mean like yeah right well I mean but it might help with their relationship with those you know that's true as long as here's another one

when a grappler has to explain what grappling is to a non-grappler yeah they come from the dojo on a date yeah

how do you explain it well because you don't want to go too deep in the weeds yeah yeah judo's this blah blah blah right you want to show just enough that you're passionate about something that you're good at something that you have hobbies right but you don't want to like take it down this weird thing like yeah you just put your hands on men you drag them to the floor against their will and you hold them down and you pound like you don't want to be that person either. That's kind of unattractive too because they'll never get it. I have canned responses to those.

Like, for grappling, like judo, and also, like, a lot of times now there's AI also. I have to do that. My canned response for judo is... No, let's do it in a role-playing way, okay? I just met you at a bar for the first time oh my god oh hey thanks for buying me this drink what do you do oh ai that's interesting do you have any hobbies go yeah i do this thing called judo um do you know what it is oh yeah judo chop i mean not yeah but not quite uh it's basically wow you've already lost me peter yeah it's just wrestling with jacket

wrestling with a jacket on i just say that yeah what do you say i don't really try to play it up though like i don't want to make judo my whole identity no man what no but you got to show the sparkle in your eye when you talk about your hobby that's the most attractive thing about people but you don't want to like if the other person's like i don't want to bore the person do it like if i meet a new like you know when i make a new friend like i try try to pop my brakes on those things. I only go into detail until they show interest. No one's asking you to go into detail.

You need a 20-second pitch. I just say it's like wrestling. Most people know wrestling with a jacket on. That's what I say. Yeah. This probably doesn't. Yeah. I understand that it doesn't really play up judo.

What do you say to new people you meet? Non grapplers. All right. What do you do for fun? What do you do for fun? Yeah. You got to say it like with the feminine voice though. What do you do for fun, Shintaro?

No, you have to do it with a feminine voice. So I'm not playing along. Why do you got it? Okay. I don't even know how to do a feminine voice. Yes, you do. Well, what do you do for fun, Shintaro? All right.

You ready? Yeah. You look like a great athlete. Define great athlete for me. What are the things about a great athlete? Like, what do you think? If you think great athlete. Hand-eye coordination, stamina strength yeah yeah take every sport you've

ever watched in your life okay did you play a sport oh softball okay i can make certain assumptions about softball right not that you know one of is anything but like hey you're probably great at swinging the bat you have to be explosive you. You have to be fast. You're on your feet. You can't fall over. Yeah, yeah. Basketball, volleyball. Oh, you must have great explosive strength in your legs. Yeah. You're probably very good at staying on your feet,

being agile, moving, throwing your hands around. Yeah. So my sport takes your abilities away from you. Think about when you're the most relaxed, when you're the most unathletic, when you're lying on the couch, watching TV, lying in bed,

about to fall asleep, daydreaming, scrolling on Instagram. Uh-huh. Right? My sport forces you to be in that position. Yeah. Right.

It takes your abilities away from you. Right? Against your will. Not saying I'm going to do that to you. Right. But that's what it's about. It's about neutralizing athleticism. Interesting. OK, I've never heard that before. It's about neutralizing their opponents athleticism.

Anybody could jump. Anyone could stand on their feet. Anyone's really fast. But if you've been taken down. You can't do anything. Yeah. You can't do much. Right. Unless you have skill. It's like taking someone who can't swim and dragging them out into the ocean so now they're wondering like wow what sport is this okay yeah well what is what are you talking about you talk about it's like baseball you ever play baseball and then they're like what it's like no I'm not talking about baseball and anything let me show you yeah yeah and then you put them in a clinch no do not suplex a girl at a bar

okay stressed out enough yeah don't know I don't know if you should clench a even no but it's like showing you know so it's like now it's fun now they're interactive like oh shoot what is this thing right usually it's like can I show you and then like okay okay they're kind of curious right uh-huh well then what do you do what do you show well so then you put your hand on the elbow like oh hey right like you're just grabbing the elbow a little bit and then you arm drag them take their back okay and give him a back hug give her a back hug yeah and you know you go into your spiel and you're kind of like teaching them stuff like see now all your weapons are facing away from me yeah judo is a takedown art yeah take the opponent down you put

them in disadvantaged positions and then you look to take them down hard where you could potentially maim them or you could submit them break their arm choke them right uh-huh and it's a battle of will it's a strategy game it's tactic based thing it's this really fun thing people look at it like a goonish thing but it's a beautiful strategy game i see and when you explain it like that it's like wow this person's so interesting right i'm never saying like i fucking do judo no one gives a shit about judo that's the problem yeah yeah i mean yeah but if you explain it in this way it's fun it's interesting you have their attention right and then it shows that you're passionate about something you know i see yeah and that's how i kind of like pitch judo to don crafters yeah yeah i did karate or whatever

it's like oh my brother does taekwondo now and it's like going over that overcoming that so difficult i guess yeah i mean if you have enough enthusiasm i guess it for me it's just like i there's so much like the lack of knowledge is so great that of judo that it's or even any grappling that i i don't if if i wanted to explain the whole thing, it might just bore them. Yeah. And then the usual questions. Oh, but I'm so small, I can never take somebody down your size. And then you say something like, hey, have you ever stubbed your toe on the corner of your couch and you fell down? Or have you ever tripped over a backpack? Yeah. Those are things that are a quarter or a fifth of your body size those things can potentially take you down right if placed improperly where you're not paying attention to certain things same thing

with takedown art like you could sweep someone off their feet just like i'm about to sweep you feet right now it works every time no that rarely ever works yeah well it was a great sales speech pitch for judo though you know yeah it's fun right but like all grappling like you know like and i think that's what it takes to kind of sell martial arts and uh you know if you're talking about the hobby yeah we're talking about dating right so especially when you're so if you're listening to this podcast you are embedded yeah this is like yeah you have to have a good 30 second one minute thing and i can't stress enough do not suplex a woman in the bar can't stress that i'm that's not what I'm advocating for. Or put someone in a clinch when they don't want to be put in a clinch.

Don't do that. No. Don't choke them either. Yeah, none of the violence. None of the physical violence. No. But if you could incorporate some playfulness into the way you're explaining what you do in a passionate way. It goes a long way, you know.

And all joking aside, like, you know, as you said, with all the different forms of relationship in martial arts, it really comes down to communication and consent. Yeah. You know? That's right. You want me to show you? Right? This is like a… Yeah.

Yeah. We got to, yeah. Just make sure, you know, be adults about it. Like don't, don't be jerks, you know, you know, common sense.

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that's about it for today. And thanks for listening and stay tuned for the next episode.