The Shintaro Higashi Show - Different Look At Learning Grappling

Episode Date: January 20, 2025

Grappling is much more than perfect throws or traditional techniques. In this episode, Shintaro and Peter discuss rethinking training methodologies, from static uchikomi to positional and grip fighting. They address the criticisms of traditional approaches, explore the ecological training model, and share how tailored drills can accelerate learning and creativity. This episode offers valuable insights and practical strategies for improving your training. (00:00:00) Introduction (00:01:31) Critiques of Traditional Uchikomi (00:02:23) Nuances of Basics and Context in Grappling (00:07:17) Importance of Grip and Positional Fighting (00:11:56) Ecological Training and Mini Games (00:17:41) Competition Mechanics vs. Traditional Drills (00:23:40) Building Personalized Games and Creativity (00:27:10) Closing Thoughts on Modernizing Training If you're in business, then you have customer churn. Whether you're building a startup, growing a mom & pop shop, or operating in a fortune 500 powerhouse, Hakuin.ai measures, predicts, and improves your customer retention. https://hakuin.ai

should not get rid of it completely. I think it's a teaching tool, like I said in a previous podcast, but it's a very, very small piece of your training, that's it. It serves a certain purpose, and then we don't do 10,000 Uchikomis a day, that's what they used to say. 10,000 Uchikomis a day or 1,000 Uchikomis a day. So you do think, I think one of the criticism

from Hanpan TV guys is that traditional Uchikomi teaches the wrong mechanics. You don't, do you not agree? Like... Hello everyone, welcome back to the Shintar Higashi Show with Peter Yoo. A lot of stuff has been going online about like rethinking basics with the Uchimata, with the Hanpan guys

and you know, thank you very much for responding. And you know, it'd nice to do a Korean-American collaboration. I'm not Korean, you're Korean, Peter. Yeah. But like to do a collaboration between the Americas and the Koreas. Yeah, I feel like, you know, Korea is a judo juggernaut and grappling juggernaut in general. Like we produce a lot of good wrestlers too, but I think, you know, because of the maybe, for a lot of different reasons, gets overlooked you know probably language difference and proximity to Japan maybe which is more popular in the Western Hemisphere but yeah it'll be great I'll be happy to play the bridge and maybe we'll just get a trip out of it I'll love to hang out with you in Korea man. Yeah that'd be great right we'll eat some

barbecue you know. Yeah barbecues be great right we'll eat some barbecue you know yeah barbecues You know fish and you know everything but anyway. Yeah, so they I they basically Called into question like the current teaching methodology of this static Which come is yeah, that's right. Yeah, right? Yeah, you know we've made a response video and someone did like a TLDR, too lazy to read, and that person nailed it, right? Yeah. It's a teaching tool.

Yeah. I can't remember what he said, but he said it's a teaching tool. A lot of the stuff that they criticized about me was taken out of context, and that's pretty much what it was. So I want to kind of clarify what the context of entire judo and grappling and where static Uchi Komen stuff may fit to give people a better idea. Yeah. Right.

And then this thing is a very nuanced discussion about basics and things like this because what they did with clipping all the stuff and then the clippable segments of what I said, what they said, it doesn't paint the whole picture really. It's just kind of a snapshot. It's like an EKG in the medical world, you know? It's like a freaking 20-second snapshot of what your heart's doing throughout the course of the entire day.

But you have to look at the whole profile of the patient, like medical history. That's why you should address that. Yeah, and you need a whole timana for two weeks to know if you actually have, what percentage aphid burden you have and all this stuff. I went through that, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so. That's, yeah. Yeah, so. That's my idea. Yeah, so let's talk about it. Okay, so then, what is the context for it? Like, do you think you still need static ochikomis that's been taught like that traditional way? I think we should not get rid of it completely. Yeah. I think it's a teaching tool tool like I said in a previous podcast,

but it's a very very small piece of your training. Yeah, so what's it good for? Teaching basics, the very very beginner piece, that's it. And there's a point of diminishing returns for the Uchikomi. It's a very very finite amount of times you can do it to kind of understand the mechanics. That's it. It serves a certain purpose and then we don't do 10,000 Uchikomis a day. That's what they used to say. Yeah.

10,000 Uchikomis a day or a thousand Uchikomis a day. So you do think the... I think one of the criticisms from Hanpan TV guys is that the static or the traditional Uchikomi teaches the wrong mechanics. You don't... Do you not agree? Yes and no. If you have a brand new person who's never done Judo before, and then okay, this is the mechanics of the throw where the person gets off balance and you're trying to put your hips underneath them, and then throw them just to kind of get them understanding. Because you're taking out what the uke's doing,

resistance, movement, anticipating their reaction. You're taking out all these things, hand position, you know, things of this nature. What happened the previous exchange? You know, weight, tall, height. You're taking out all these variables, right? So, because there's too many variables. So you take out completely the person's absolutely neutral

and you have this human form. And if you pull your hand like this, there's a theoretical space. And then if the person's stiff and their body's rigid and then you remove their center of gravity away from their base, then you create a fulcrum underneath their hips, and then you can rotate him over. That's oh, that's how the guy gets thrown, right? But let's just say for example, you get a

unaffletic, not so coordinated 30 year old accountants that never did this sport before. I always use accountant as an example. I don't know why. But now it's like, all right, you know, here's the real mechanics when the guy's running this way or running that way or here's the back Step Uchi Mata. Yeah, or you know when you do ouchi and they resist backwards You don't need to create that off balance with your your left hand because they're already leading this direction All you have to do is prevent that hand from retreating Right now all of a sudden you got even more of a confusing thing You know mean I? do agree with that assessment too. Yeah, I mean, I kind of express that opinion in the previous podcast too, but

it's like I bring golf up because they use golf as another example of like a sports that does things right in some sense. But I think they kind of gloss over the fact that in golf, same things happen. Like you go to the range, you do the static swing with the perfect line, you know, like it's everything is perfectly flat grass is not overgrown around the ball. And then you just practice a basic swing. And when you go out to the field, that's not the case. You never get the perfect lie. That's why golf is hard.

Cause there's so many variables, like you said, just like grappling. And I think it's, I, when I watched the video, I didn't think that was a good example for, for their, what they're trying to argue. So everything I think static, I agree that traditional way of teaching of the throws is valuable in some sense. No, I don't want to repeat myself too much from the last episode. Even like the boxing, there was a video of Floyd Mayweather making fun of someone jabbing with their hand down. Then they clipped in Floyd throwing the jab and then dropping his hand.

But it's like, yeah, he could do that. It's different. It's kind of a whole, you know what I mean? So yes, the basics never fully go directly over, it's like coding, right? Everything you do in your training or your PhD doesn't exactly what happened in the real life. Running a business is the same freaking way.

To get an MBA, look, I'm actually wearing this shirt. And while you start to get an MBA, this is what a business looks like. Every business has a business plan, and 90% of the time, that's not exactly how it happens. You have to pivot, you have to take on new shapes and forms. So that's the idea behind it. What I wanna talk about is where you should put your focus

on the training. Yeah. And then what are the pieces of grappling period? Yeah. Right? All right, so there's the traditional teaching methods have a place. So what else do people need to focus in your opinion? You know, I think it's grip fighting and then positional fighting. I think that's one of the two main things is without those two things, you can't throw anybody. Yeah, it's kind of like, you know, watch anime and someone knows about like Chi or whatever it is or superpower

I think I discovered this power Yeah, it's like that when you've done judo long enough and you discover this power of fighting for position Yeah, and I'm saying it's yeah power of managing distance If you box and you're going against the guy who's not never box before Just learning the distance to staying out of range jumping in range staying Out of range is enough to beat them Mmm, and it's kind of like that. It's right. So it's grip fighting Positional fighting in judo for wrestling hand fighting. Yeah, right and

Positional fighting to yes positional fighting like if you're locked up chest to chest like what what's the dominant position things like that so that's one piece of it right you know yeah I think for me that was the biggest leap I took like from you know through my judo journey and that's when a lot of the throws started working it's not the I mean of course I learned the traditional way we're going back to Uchimura traditional way of doing the Uchimara. And then I also learned that you had the competition variant of like fling the elbow up and whatever. But I don't think that was ultimately what gave me the ability to execute those throws. It's more the grip fighting and the position of fights that puts me into the right position to actually I think the throwing mechanics gets too much like emphasis maybe for

Well, it is important, but it's not as once you advance in levels. I don't think it's that important So this is the thing right? Yeah, if the person's completely relaxed letting you do everything fully cooperative giving you like a stiff base to kind of work yourself And then molding themselves to be the perfect shape for you to lift and throw the person right yeah You could only do that certain time until you've mastered it, but if you can't do that you can't do anything else You can't throw a resisting partner. That's the thing so you master that now all of a sudden You're very good at grip fighting and positional fighting now You could attack Uchimata whenever you want and then sometimes you lose your balance

and then the sleeve hand you losing your balance so you let go and put your hand down yeah okay so my balance wasn't good so now you make these adjustments but you have a lot more shots and goal right yeah yeah you're able to attack without getting countered as much right right so you're able to attack looking for different entries you're trying new things and now all of a sudden you're not playing this game of from which you call me to Nagakomi Yeah, we're just doing the entire throw Yeah, but now you're working entering into that leg inside leg position and then working the different lines of finishes Yeah

Whether it's like coming back out and going to Ochi to the weak side or come back out going Ochi and go on cross body Ochi, right go out. You might have which you mounted and go on the weak side or coming back out going to ochi and going cross body ochi right? Going ochi mana ochi mana then going hurray or going ochi mana running cross body ochi then clipping the sort of guy to the far leg all these different opportunities kind of open up. Yeah. You see what I mean? So what are the best ways to actually train for that in your opinion?

Like because so for learning the mechanics you can argue that Uchikomi is a pretty good way to do it yeah right or moving Uchikomi, static Uchikomi, Nagakomi but how about these situational things like grip fighting and then the positional fighting so I think grip fighting positional fighting you could just do without the risk of throwing right no throwing at all just fighting for grip fighting and you know you see the best USA judo programs like Jimmy Peajol's or something do it right guys we're gonna grip fight for the next 20 minutes go man that's a

long time for a long time fingers get messed up you know yeah there's a lot of different adjustments you can make right so if you get out gripped stay in that position for 10 seconds and then you let the person work out of it or you know let the person gain back the position or you can break apart and then go right and you can focus on putting your first hand on first or you know trying to parry the shoulder and then putting your hand on reactively yeah there's all these little games that you could play start with two hands on try to take one hand off yeah see so you develop sort of that skill you know and then you add new things to

it like hey hey, now you can show feints. Now you can touch the feet for the Daishi attack so that you can touch the feet, cut the hand, circle, you know what I mean, grip break. So now you're doing a little bit more actively. You see what I mean? Right, right. Is that the famous popular ecological approach? Kind of, yeah. I mean, like ecological approach, you give I mean like ecological approach you give them specific goals yeah and then you let them play it out so you're not giving like this is what you do you put your left hand here the sleeve goes back you punch that hand in and you teach some of these linear sequences but a

lot of the times it's like okay right versus left person who puts the first hand on the collar kind of generally determines inside or outside okay we're just gonna play it's sort of a game touch the key first right touch the head on the lapel don't go too fast and then go at a pace where the collar kind of generally determines inside or outside. Okay, we're just gonna play sort of a game. Touch the gi first, right? Touch the hand on the lapel. Don't go too fast and then go at a pace where you can kind of give yourself feedback and play fight a little bit. So now all of a sudden you're just trying to touch the lapel on the hand and little by little you start realizing, oh I can pull back out of distance and come back in and touch the hand on the lapel or they're coming here consistently. I'm gonna try to block it

and then put my hand on. So that's a little bit more the ecological approach as opposed like me Specifically tell them that you're nine different ways to put the hands on. Yeah, which is most of the time useless It's really really useless if you teach that and then expect them to do it in Rondori full throttle Right now all of a sudden you put the biggest variable Danger and personal safety, in the mix. Now all of a sudden you're not really doing anything because you're scared and self-preservation takes over.

You're not really in a learning environment anymore. Maybe you can kind of show them some sequences as a suggestion. You could do these things, but not that you have to do it. I like this. Here are some ideas. Yeah, here's some ideas. We're gonna enter inside leg position. We're gonna start Ochi position

with the leg threaded in, okay? Ready, set, go. You're gonna try to stand up, and eventually you're gonna fall. Yeah. You're just gonna let me fall, but you're just giving good reactions, right? You're just giving me softball problems, hey, you know?

And then you're gonna let me. So it's already predetermined who wins. And Glick kinda gave me this idea. Glick was like, hey, it's predetermined who wins. You're gonna lose. This is your turn to lose so there's no ego. I see, I see. Yeah, right?

So now when a black belt's going with a green belt and then they're doing the drill, they fall, it's not that they got taken down. He was supposed to let the guy throw him anyway, right? Right, right, right. And then you're just trading winds back and forth. So now all of a sudden, you're good at gripping, you're good at positional fighting, you can enter into this position, and now you're getting better at the inside leg entanglement position. Yeah. When the leg is threaded, and it's like ready, set, go, I'm cutting back, I'm going over here, you know, and then whenever you put that foot down,

oh, I lost balance, I wasn't able to keep my balance in my left leg, right? So then you just kinda keep at it, keep at it, and all of a sudden, you get very, very comfortable standing on one leg, having that inside leg position, cutting back to one side, cutting back to the other side, and then trying to gain a little bit of hand position while doing it, and putting your weight on that opponent,

and this learning kinda sort of becomes natural. Yeah. Because no one's going to get slammed. I see. No one's going to get slammed. We know there's no ego. We've taken ego out of it because I win, you win, I win, you win. Or it could also be like, it's my drill for three minutes.

Yeah. You get taken down every 30, 40 seconds. So we just consistently get more exposure to the position as opposed to, and this is deliberate training, like Malcolm Gladwell said in his book. You ever read that book about the deliberate training? I've only read the, what's it called, the famous book about 10,000 hours.

Yeah, so he talks a little bit about this in another book that he wrote. I think it's called peak right peak Okay, the great example was this high backhand in tennis All right, so everyone's forehands usually better than the backhand. Obviously. Yeah, but the high ones very tricky What's the high back and like when the ball comes in high and then you have to hit a backhand Oh, it's a high right like a little bit higher

So now all of a sudden how many shots are you exposed? How many times are you exposed to that exact stimuli when you play it? Think of tennis. If I play with you tennis every single day for the next two years, how many times did I really come across that shot? Not much.

Maybe every time it came, I ding it and it goes that way, that way, that way. Someone could teach me how to do it. But if I'm not exposed to that stimulus over and over, I'm not gonna really learn it. It's gonna take me forever to learn it just playing. Right? So, all of a sudden now you're my coach,

you say, all right, we're gonna make you hit the high left hand backhand over and over, every single day for 20 minutes straight. So now all of a sudden we're playing tennis and it comes at it and I can nail it. It's kinda like music. I get stuck on this part of the piece. You don't play the entire piece And you keep repeating that that one little spot, right? Yeah So you look at the entire course of what happens in a judo match

Handfighting grip fighting hand positional stuff. You're entering Ohchi Uchi Mata and now you're getting there now You're only working on the finishing portion or you're only working on the hand positioning You're only working on sort of entering the timing and then you're segmenting each one of your trainings Right do any of that shit if you have no idea What the throw should look like or yeah like because you've never done it before So that is kind of like the whole thing behind my argument for I think these guys are wrong yeah I see so then but I like it I like it that they're thinking that way yeah I think it's it's a good question to ask I mean I certainly had that question through throughout my

judo journey like trying to figure out why I can't do certain throws. But do you think... So there's this, OK, you got to know the basics. You got to just know how the throws feel like. And then you add in all this grip fighting and positional fighting component. But do you think there's... How about the argument that's going around, not just from the Hanpan TV guys,

but teaching the mechanics more in the competition way. Like does it, is it just a part of the big picture? Like, do you see any value in that? Like actually teaching people to perform throws the competition way, so to speak? Yeah, I think so. I mean, cause there's a resisting opponent and they're going gonna resist in different ways

Yeah, so a lot of the times when you enter into a big massive Uchi modern they defend it It's what happens after that, right? Yeah, so that's sort of a different type of a finish versus entering in for Uchi Mata and Anticipating their reaction so you're doing it in sort of in another way another way. So you could definitely teach these things for sure. Yeah, yeah. And then that kind of gets incorporated into the drilling sort of, I don't want to say ecological approach, but like these drills that you do.

It's the same thing as, they're basically what you just described with the high back end, how to learn how to back end. You learn the backhand the traditional way but a lot of times that doesn't quite well you are not gonna get the perfect backhand anyway. Same thing with Uchimura. Yeah you learn the traditional way but that's not gonna happen that often so you have to train the... Yeah it just like like depends on the need I guess I mean I think all these training methodologies

Have a place I guess The biggest gripe even I think all of us have is if a gym where they just make you mindlessly Perform that's definitely a thousand which come we yeah, you know which come we do like alright guys I usually say like three sets of ten for static which you call me and then move on to like just the way I warm up yeah just do sort of like this flow we sort of attack this attack that and then I'll give him pieces like all right making a foot attack and then cut a hand right make like a circular attack and then try to clear

the lapel hand things like this yeah but I'll tell you man like look up back step Uchi ma by Shintaro Higashi. Yeah, I don't teach it The way like like this, you know, yeah There's many different ways and then even like I think some judo mat lab thing Uchiman is taught with like wedging the elbow underneath. Yeah, this is higher than your elbow But if you look at all the competition, the elbow is higher than the wrist. It's like, yes, of course, when you're showing it in a fundamental position, you're upright and you're facing the person.

In that case, it's easy to wedge your elbow and have your wrist higher than your hand. But if they're defensive and their hips are back, and then now all of a sudden, to off balance and forward, you don't need to pull so much. You can just push and then as as they lean back you go. And that's very difficult to wedge that elbow underneath the armpit, right?

So now all of a sudden the elbow goes up and the head gets stuffed, you know? Yeah, yeah. So I've taught this before also. There's so many different ways to enter a technique, so many different variations, but what happens a lot of the times on the internet is one person teaches the basics,

everyone teaches the basics Yeah, yeah, so now all of a sudden there's very little amounts of videos that deep dive into sort of the finer nuance Right and you know I've done videos like micro judo how to grab a sleeve What's the difference with a low sleeve high sleeve bless you? Thank you this new on stuff. That's very very, like it goes over the heads of most people. So in that way, yes, the very, very fundamental, this is the actual throw, is still worth something, you know? Not as much as people think though.

See what I mean? There's a place for it. It's a learning tool, period. I think, yeah, I agree. And then I'll say like, you know, I've I've never actually I don't even remember when you actually Demonstrated like the traditional way of which matter during class. I've never taught it that way. Yeah I don't yeah, you just I'll do it. I mean if it's all white belts mostly yellow belts They've never done it before and then I always say this is what you would do in a completely unresisting opponent in a neutral setting and you know I don't even do

right versus right for Uchimata. I go right versus right but they don't have a hand on the collar they rest their hand on the forearm. Yeah yeah. Right you know how they do that? So that's really neutral because all the person doesn't even have a right-sided grip. Yeah. And their stance is facing you in a even neutral step not even a staggered step but like a normal step facing you so now it's almost as if you have a training dummy just standing upright in front of you right okay yeah now how are you gonna put them in a position where their hips are further

away from their base and then they're leaning forward and then creating that space underneath you who flare your elbow like this and I always mention this may not look like it in Vandori because your rear delts are doing most of the work it's a very small muscle. Yeah. You know it's a very small muscle but if they're not resisting you could use your rear delta and off balance and forward like this. Yeah.

Yeah. But all these nuanced things kind of goes away when you're sort of teaching judo in a one-minute segment on the internet. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. I mean, those videos, I mean, you made those videos back in the day anyway, like very early on, like when you were building up your kind of like your repertoire, I guess, of your videos. But yeah I mean I think I think these are all good points hopefully people got more clarification I think the reaction video we were some people thought that ShinTaro hadn't even watched the video but we were like he was literally watching it while we're recording it so

yeah and and he did accept my challenge for Vandory I know yeah yeah we gotta go to Korea I'll do I'm gonna hit them up soon and yeah yeah so that's you know the ecological sort like kind of a thing and you're only training a certain segment you know yeah and I give this example for Jiu-Jitsu the person who wants to stay in seated guard, person who wants to make the person play supine guard. So now the game is for me to put their back on the floor so they're in supine guard. So the person playing seated guard, don't sweep them,

don't go for submissions, don't wrestle off. That's not the point of this goddamn game, okay? The only goal is for the person on bottom is to stay in seated guard, and the only person on top is to stay in seated guard, and the only person on top is to put the person back on supine guard. Now all of a sudden, right, you have two people not figuring anything out,

essentially in the beginning. So now you give them tools. This is what it could look like. Yeah, yeah. Hand fight, push them back, pull their head down, push them back, make it look like you're gonna make upper body grips or grab a leg and then pick up their legs

and then bring their back. So now you're only working that. You're not going into a pass right after that. Once you accomplish that goal, you just go right back and play that same game, right? So you're only working on that portion. You see what I mean? And I think this, if you start teaching this way,

it kinda helps students come up with their own games later on. You know, when they have incurred their own problems in their games. I mean, I certainly did that. Like, for example, so, you know, one good example I have is I, when I was adding the left side also to Gari, you know, now it's like one of my Tokui wazas for you know, you know what it is When I first saw it, I saw it in the from a Chinese player who won the bronze I think in Rio or Beijing whatever and then I Had never done on the left side Osoto Gari before so I had to start from the static like I like literally drill

Yeah static traditional way of which you call me then I started slowly incorporating like in the mini games and I'll ask people to hey can you stay like this position so that can work and then I slow one by one piece by piece it became my part of in session part of my game I think that's kind of what it is like you When you start off and you just have no idea how this throw is supposed to look like the traditional way is a good way To just build up that familiarity. Yes Just yeah, and then you can then like Shintaro said create games and situations and ask people for drills and then you can start slowly incorporating into the main game. Beyond like green belt man you should only do like three or four sets of static Uchi Komi just to kind of get... I use it like sort of a way to get my mind ready.

Yeah me too. When you're in comp and then you kind of have your like sort of jitters and you're getting into the thing and you know even just showing the Uchi Komi basics and just pounding in and entering in and then go and kind of sets the tone sets the mood people see how crisp you do those basics you know it's like the scales and music yeah you know yeah yeah right you just if you yeah like if you feel professional like guitarist or you know can you play the guitar without playing the scales every day yes yeah play a couple of chords and sing some songs over it, you know what I mean?

Can I play the scale throughout the thing and all the different, no, I can't do it, but there's people that can and people that can't that can also play at a very high level, right? I mean, so it doesn't have to be that way, you know? It's a learning tool and you use it as you may, you know what I mean? Some people take Adderall to study, some people take Sascha to get jacked, you know, it's a learning tool and you use it as you may, you know, some people take Adderall to study, some people take Sasho to get jacked, you know, like, it's like that.

It's a tool. Yeah, I think, I think Judo, I think especially Judo has because of its, has some like traditionalist subculture with subcontext within it. So I think it tends, these traditional methods tend to get overem within it. So I think it tends these traditional methods tend to get overemphasized. But I think it's good that we're having this conversation and modernize the sport more so that more people can learn it quicker. You know? Yeah. And let's thank your sponsors, Peter. Oh, yeah. Amazing. So you can take that away. Jason, Levan, Joe and Drew. Drew's got a company, Hakuin.ai. And if you have a business, Mom and Pop Shop,

or Fortune 500, you have customer churn. And Hakuin.ai lets you analyze that churn so that you can reduce it, hopefully. Yeah, so thank you for our sponsors. You can also sponsor us on Patreon. Link down below. And yeah, give us suggestions and yeah, keep this conversation going. I want to try something. Ready? Yeah. If you guys listen this far, and if you guys are watching on YouTube, I want you guys to comment.

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