The Shintaro Higashi Show - Kids Judo Program - An Interview With Joseph Coker

Episode Date: February 19, 2024

Running a kids' program is one of the most important yet often overlooked aspects of managing a successful martial arts school. Essential for growth and sustainability, these programs, however, are frequently seen by many martial arts instructors as secondary to adult programs. What does it take to run a fun, educational, and successful kids' program in a martial arts school? In this episode, Shintaro and Greg sit down with Joseph Coker, who currently leads the kids' Judo program at Shintaro's gym, KBI. Shintaro considers Joseph to be one of the finest kids' martial arts instructors he has ever encountered. Joseph shares some of his invaluable tips for running a successful kids' martial arts program. Join our Discord server and start chatting with us and other grapplers by supporting us on Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/shintaro_higashi_show⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Any amount helps!

All right, welcome back to the Shintori Guys Show, Peter Yu. Today we have two very special guests. Well, Reagan's always behind the camera, but he's going to be in front of the camera today. We have a very special guest, Joseph Coker. But before we move on, we've got to thank our sponsors. Jason and LeVon. That's right. Hell yeah.

Judo TV with the IJF. Fuji in certain episodes. Certain episodes, all of them. Thank you. You guys can also sponsor us. You can go to our Patreon and click the links below. Thank you so much. All right, Joe Coker.

How do we know each other? I found you online and I decided to do a private lesson and I came here during COVID and it was love at first sight. Yes. I love your story because you came to New York to do standup comedy. Yep. Right?

So that was really cool and you're a really funny guy and then you come to the dojo to work out and then we have all these commonalities, right? You grew up in a dojo. Yeah, yeah that was the funny thing is that is like uh I feel like a lot of people in the grappling world they find martial arts late and people in more traditional martial arts they end up doing it a lot earlier as kids and whatever. And so I grew up in a karate school. You grew up in an everything school. You started martial arts late, right? 28.

That's pretty standard for grappling world. As far as my connection with the social media, I am the demographic. So it's easy for me to be like, do I like this or not? Yeah. demographic. Do I like this or not? Yeah so I grew up in a karate school more or less and then did that in my early 20s. Dad's a karate teacher. Yeah my dad's a karate teacher, my brother's a karate teacher. It was it was it was what that was like our field and that's what we were farmers of karate. North Carolina. North Charleston, South Carolina. No one knows South Carolina, it's an invisible state, South Carolina. I still don't know. No one knows South Carolina. It's an invisible state.

South Carolina. And then you betrayed them by going to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Yes, I did the worst thing you could do, which is switch sports. No one likes that. How long did you do karate for? I mean, some of my earliest memories were in a karate school. I remember one time, one of my core memories as a child is we walked into my dad's dojo. He turned on the lights, and then a couple cockroaches started running across the floor.

And then he tried to cheer on me and my brother to chase him down and step on him. He's like, go get him! It's kind of like in Rocky when he chases a chicken. Yes, exactly, but with a roach in our bare feet. It wasn't a bad place. It was just like that's what we were doing. I remember cleaning the showers as a kid for like a dollar or something.

Yeah, yeah. You definitely get overworked, underpaid as a martial arts child. Yeah, martial arts, like all schools thrive on this undercurrent of free labor. Yes. Interns and up and comers. For the honor of the sensei.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So did you did so you ran a kids, that's why you're here today, right? Mostly to talk about the kids program, because I deem you are one of the best kids martial arts instructors that I've seen in a really long time. Thank you. We have a program here. You work here now too, right? And we work, you know, just also manages my real estate portfolio as well.

So there's a lot of stuff happening here. And you're only fans. You're doing everything. I'm like the lady that killed Selena, but he's Selena. Imagine the fan club. Yeah, you run a great, you ran a kids' jiu-jitsu program for a long time down in South Carolina. South Carolina. East Carolina.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I ran a school there and started very humbly, like, teaching in daycares. And then it kind of grew, and then we were teaching in this place called Mixon for a while. And it was probably, like, the best job I've ever had. I think it was so fulfilling and so fun. I had so many great students. I'm still in touch with some of them.

And so it was funny to stop that to like go to New York for no clear reason. And then so it was... You want to be a comedian. Yes, but like, you know, it's funny,

like you go from teaching kids, which is an immediately fulfilling, everyone's proud of you kind of job. And then you're like, well, I just signed up for a 9 p.m. open mic. You know, it there's not a roadmap for the comedy world yeah New York kind of exists in this like uh you know like storybook mythic thing for comedians so it's like it was a very

different expectation between yeah yeah sure so I think it's nice it's been nice to teach some kids classes here because it's kind of reusing that part of my brain and something that I was good at, but also really loved. So, so how do you feel like your method is distinguished as opposed to like the more traditional? I think that people that are bad at teaching kids martial arts, it's because they don't want to most of the time because they see it as a lower status thing than teaching adults they really do yeah they really do because then even sometimes like in the micro essence of conversation people like you teach mushrooms oh i don't teach kids though i teach

adults yeah it's like okay no one asked you right which shows the where you're coming from yeah everyone assumes that it's like more masculine to teach adults and i don't, maybe in some ways it is because you have to like fight some adults. You never have to fight a kid just about where to put the shoes or whatever. But yeah, no, so I think for me, I try to always remember the age of the person that's standing in front of me and set the goals there. So for some kids, maybe the goal is that they learn how to cross their legs in class today and I don't have to tell them a hundred times. That's a great judo or Jiu-Jitsu experience. And for other kids, maybe they can do something a lot more higher level. But understanding what you can expect out of somebody and being happy about it and just being in a good mood.

I feel like a lot of instructors, they think they have to take on this like... Everyone is aping their instructor. It's like, if I have a Brazilian coach, I have a Brazilian accent. If I have a Japanese coach, I have a Brazilian accent. If I have a Japanese coach, I have a Japanese accent. And everyone takes on this like stern posture and it's not really necessary. No.

Unless there's trouble. Yeah. So I guess that's my general. Yeah. When I watch your class, and you know, we've had a bunch of martial arts teachers here at KBI. I've been in many programs.

I taught kids programs all over the city, et cetera, et cetera. But I think the two things that really stand out is the one, you're charismatic and fun with the kids. And it's a fun class always. Yeah. And there is that vibe. And the second thing is you set boundaries and you enforce boundaries. Yes.

Right. And I think that's what distinguishes you from a lot of the others. Yeah. One warning, two warning. All right, you're off the mat. Yeah. I don't know if it was like this for you, but when I was growing up, if you, or any sport really, if you got in trouble, you had to do like whatever amount of push-ups is always possible.

Run a lap or something. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then I kind of learned from running camps and stuff that like never give a kid a punishment that you are not willing to stand over them and examine. Because like you give a kid 50 push-ups and they're just like, Yeah. Laming their way through it. And it's like, well, who is being punished right now? But I think that's like, exactly.

Like I'm going to give them a boundary that I will very clearly enforce. And then I think that makes kids feel safe because they know that like, okay, someone's paying attention to me and they care about how I behave. And so, you know, we'll see what happens. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's not like pushupsups right I've never seen you hey you gotta do a hundred push-ups or anything like that it's always like right you have a stern talking to and it's like hey if you're not ready you gotta get off the mat and you use that space very well because then you know you have to pay attention to everyone else in the class oh yeah and before you even have that conversation there's ways for you to rope them in right for instance this kid's messing around but hey hey so and so has a very good Soto. Yes exactly. So now you're already complimenting them so now they feel good about themselves therefore they're more likely to behave in a positive way before you even have to say hey listen kid. Yeah yeah yeah.

It's something you do pretty good. If you if you have to use force it's probably because you are bad at teaching and some you're probably missing something so to me what we're doing should be so worth listening to that a kid doesn't have to like focus in so like i'll do stupid stuff like if we we've been working on balancing on one foot for an osotagoria we have these targets that we stand on when i'm walking to the kids to show them the targets i will be slapping them with my hands just because it's another way of me saying hey hey you know like look at this thing i'm hyping up this stupid little thing we're doing but also i yeah i don't know i think there a lot goes into it but being in a good mood i think helps and being clear with stuff helps yeah yeah well those uh those little

achievements too like i we were like i've been teaching the kid classes for a while now, for over a year, and it's like what I consider to be acceptable goals for them don't actually work sometimes at the lowest levels. Yeah. So just have, hey, just balance on this. Like run from here to there. Like these little things that aren't even judo or aren't even karate anything it's just like oh these are the level of achievements they need to feel that positivity and then reach and if they don't leave with that it's tough yeah like

one time i saw a guy that i hired to help me with a summer camp teach i was like i'll just teach him something for 30 minutes i had something else to do and i come back and he's trying to teach the kids how to do a butterfly sweep and i was like these kids don't know what a butterfly is. They don't know what a sweep is or a guard or how the other guy should sit. They don't even know what a hook is so like how can you expect this higher order thing of them and he's like why is this class going so poorly? I'm like yeah. Well you said it the other day like You told them to line up, and they didn't line up. It's like, they don't know what a line is. They don't stand in lines. They think we've got to show them.

And then they were like, when you broke it down for them, they're like, okay, I'm going to stand here. Then you're going to stand behind me, and so on. And they're like, oh, I can do that. And even that was like a small achievement. Because they don't know what a line is, but in the context of the room in class, okay, we're going to go to art now, line up in front of front of the door and the kids run there and they've done that routine before but sometimes it's like all right line up for these drills it's like all right do we line up in that white wall or down there or do we line up like we like because we're lining up before and after practice is over there right so

you gotta have to model everything right no that that's so true you have to give like a very very clear prompt and the younger a kid is words aren't enough because like we teach really young kids they might know 800 words and none of them are related to judo right so everything you're teaching them is is expanding their verbal category and so if you say make a single file line what does that even mean that's that's too much and and what i've often find found is that kids are actually trying to listen to you and they're trying to train with you but you've given them something that's impossible for them to do they don't have enough information grab the column see like what yes I don't know what a column sleeve is where they're putting their

thumb down the sleeve and yeah like aha this this also is like a pretty unique environment like the a the space just be had padded walls and then to everyone be in the same uniform is rare. At least for me going to public school. But even in the real world, like I was on construction sites a lot. It's sharp, dusty, don't touch anybody, deadly. And here it is like we're only gonna be grabbing each other. We're all wearing the same thing. Everything's padded. It was like very yeah big uh big shift it is a in a way this is a very safe space for kids to like

physically interact with the world and make mistakes and whatever and yeah you know and like just like grab a collar and sleep it's like when do you do that anywhere you're not allowed to do that anywhere else in the world and then throw a guy on there on the ground or whatever yeah different teaching karate and judo uh and jiu-jitsu because he's taught three all three right karate karate judo and jiu-jitsu know what the difference is uh it's easier to fill a room full of people with karate because space wise because you can do so many solo drills like in jiu-jitsu if you're like okay we're gonna do 50 shrimps everybody what are we doing 50 solo shrimps you know but karate like a third of the class is punching the air and doing blocks and kicks and that's

considered normal yeah and it's tough to keep their attention doing kata and form and things like that but some people do really well right I mean so what is the magic to keeping their attention for something that's like alright getting stance and throw strikes over and over it may not be fun for a kid

yeah I think having something that's immediately getting stance and throw strikes over and over it may not be fun for a kid yeah i i think i think having um something that's immediately applicable to what they're doing it's like here is a problem here's a solution here's what how it could go wrong here's another solution and then let's try it right now and then give him like i don't even like one thing we've been working on in the kids class is when we're doing a more advanced technique is that we pair up with the kid first so they get the proper signals and then later we'll let them pair up with each other because like give a kid who's trying to do an asotagari and the other kid's like not in a stance his hands are in his belt it's like there is no problem he could do any move to me it's always like the

difference between teaching math and engineering it's like engineering here we have a problem you're going to use math to solve it where math is just like abstract when am i going to use this yeah why do i need it kids kids cannot accept abstract when it comes to teaching you know no but you but you've taught like a bunch of different stuff what do you think's the difference oh that's tough man i mean i think it's a little bit more when we do randori we don't let our kids just do full randori here you know i think you should talk about that because i think that's, I never saw that until I came here. I think it's really interesting. Yeah, we let the, we hold the kids collars.

Like the way you like break up a fight. Yeah, yeah. We hold two kids collars because you know it takes one time and yes, it depends on the situation, depends on the, you know, the type of program that you're running. But in Manhattan when all the kids are doing once or twice a week, but majority of the kids are doing once a week because they have chess, soccer, tennis, baseball, after school, tutors, all this stuff. They're booked to the guilds, right? Yeah.

So they usually do a once a week thing. Yeah. And then when they're doing ice skating, right, like with the Umi right now, they're doing it once a week. So you can't let those guys just really do Rondori, and then you get a kid that does it twice a week versus a kid that's been doing it two years these kids didn't get smoked oh yeah and then when you have like all right let the orange belt pair up with a new guy and then let those two kids do Rondori you're really trusting that one kid not to throw them yeah you're treating them like an instructor almost yeah not make a mistake that could cost this kid yeah

so it's like you have to worry about that but maybe you trust them but then you're leaving it up to chance a little bit because maybe that kid can't really control it. So we take all those risks out where we hold the kid's collars. So I think when you do that you could have three or four

of our burry mats going on at once but it's more labor intensive because you have to have assistance to be able to do it. Or at the very end of the class it's like a treat. Last ten minutes we're going to do a burry. Everyone's in a circle and then we're going to have you to be able to do it. Or, at the very end of the class, it's like a treat, right? Last 10 minutes, we're going to do Rondori. Everyone's sitting in a circle,

and then we're going to have you and you. You guys are paying attention. You guys get to do Rondori. Come out here, and you hold them up, and they go crazy, and the kids go nuts, and then you get another two. Not everyone goes, maybe, but, right? As opposed to, like you said, karate, you know, I've taught like a 70

person after school thing. Yeah. It was like a one-off thing or like an assembly. Yeah. We have 70 kids in there and everyone's kicking and punching in there. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. And that, it's like you really have to be sort of like a one-man show where you're yelling and screaming.

Yeah. Rappling, it could be a little bit more about them. Yeah. But it's a little bit more labor intensive, like, because you have to be in it with them and have appropriate supervisors that's just my opinion on that you know i've seen my dad do that before with like the karate thing like teaching huge like private lessons like because that's the other thing i feel like one thing that's like a little bit different about karate is they're a lot more comfortable like marketing themselves like some of my earlier karate upbringings is we would go do a demonstration for the Boy Scouts or this church or whatever.

And you just have to show up and make it not weird. You're all wearing belts and my dad's breaking a concrete brick or whatever. Everybody's just like, hell yeah. But do you ever worry about when you're teaching the judo kids holding their collars for safety, do you ever worry that they won't be able to transition to when no one's holding their collars obviously like competition or you know so i do and then when those kids who have only been doing it for a year with supports yeah coming once a week enter a competition they're gonna get smoked without a doubt yeah you're gonna go get smoked. Without a doubt. Yeah, yeah. You're going to go,

you know, that's like managing expectations with parents, right? I want my kid to compete. It's like, okay, wait a minute. You're competing against Russian kids, tough kids from

the Bronx, etc. These kids do judo four or five times a week because they usually put their kid in one program and they lean into it. These kids do judo five days a week.

They work out at home. Their dads might have done judo or wrestling or grappling. Yeah. Maybe they come from a family of grapplers yeah so for you to put your kid in once a week first of all you're never going to catch up doing it once a week for a year second of all we need to keep them safe first and foremost yeah right so those kids will never be able to get put into that environment but you take said kid who does it for a semester.

Next semester, he does it twice a week. Then he does it three times a week and he grew up under that system. We have kids now who are 13, 14-year-olds who came up through that. And now, for instance,

Liam and Max and those kids. They're incredible. They're doing good. They're going out there competing, winning 15 under, 17 under tournaments. Now, I don't hold them. Yeah, of course.

Right? And then during that time period, they learn to take chances, right? Without the risk of getting slammed on their head. And it takes one time for a kid to get smoked for them to want to quit. Yeah, that's so true. So yes and no,

but it's managing the parents, right? It's like, can this kid perform in an environment like competition and do well under the scaffolding of once a week with collar holding? They can't. They really can't. But they'll get there. We did an in-house tournament recently.

And the kids, the most interesting thing was seeing them in that environment without the restriction, without the collar holding. And once they started turning a little bit more than we were ever allowing them and consequences of someone getting the wrong grips for them yeah they some people came online you watched it in their eyes they're like the next exchange i i gotta really step up right now because there's nothing and and some of these kids really like all of them actually improved some of these kids like got it they were seeing and you know what some of those kids probably quit Some of these kids, like, got it. They were seeing. And you know what?

Some of those kids probably quit. And, you know, you hear the old martial arts senseis, oh, they were cut out for it. You're doing those kids a disservice. Yeah, that's right. You know, and I'm totally against, like, the strongest survive. I don't really believe in that. But, boy, man, that was crazy when we did that in-house tournament. It's like, all right, no more.

Everyone just go do free takedowns. Such a normal thing in the judo world. Right. But it's not normal. And that's why judo's not popular. Because it's freaking scary. And if I was in that room, I purposely didn't come. We wouldn't have a panic attack. We'd just smoke each other.

But no, what it is, is that martial arts has- No, no, you're bringing it back. I'm only remembering the good stuff. Vietnam. Yeah. Staring off into the distance. Some of the dads send me clips like, look at my son, he did so good, right? And I was like, I'm watching it, he's spiking his head first into the ground.

I'm like, Jesus Christ. But that's what judo is. My favorite part is that none of the parents have either watched judo online or ever in person. So nobody knew what to say. They didn't know to keep the eye on the ball, good hustle.

So there I am on the side going, come on, you get your grips. Come on, defend the grips. And then I'm the only voice. There's a sea of people. It's silent. Definitely a huge information asymmetry yeah that's also a good thing but it's also a bad thing right we talk about judo's died in the country etc etc and we have all these different things but it also primes the people who are in the know who can do for huge success

because it's winner takes all yeah you know you know what I like about the system, the way you do it, is that there's this vein of tough guy bullshit in all martial arts. Karate has it. Judo has it. Jiu-Jitsu. Even martial arts that are objectively terrible and bad. There's ninjutsu guys who are like, if you can't do knuckle push-ups,

their whole style is a lie. Why are you acting so hard this isn't prison and the thing is that's I think why people go to martial arts is to push themselves, to feel tough, to feel secure and strong but you can always

raise the intensity level but if you violate somebody's trust by spiking the intensity in a moment in a match then that's when people quit because it's like trust by spiking the intensity in a moment in a match then that's when people quit yeah because it's like like one of the first times I went to judo it was an accident I don't care but like one of the first times I went to judo this black belt put me in like like a Georgian grip and then I was

like trying to posture out of it and then he threw me a Soto like so hard that like I drove home like in my car like I was like am I concussed or am I not concussed? It was an accident and that guy was just like a little wild it wasn't like the lead instructors like a random guy but like that sucks and like that's that could be the reason someone's like I'm not meant for the sport really it was just like one error on my part because I didn't know something but also this guy you know he went too crazy. Jimmy Pedro was just on recently and you watched

and edited that podcast. He said, we don't let adult beginners who come into the system do Andori. For guess how many months? How many? I think yes.

No, this is Jimmy Pedro speaking here. In his dojo. Guy signs up. He's 27 years old. I want to do Judo. Signs up for the beginner class.

Three months or something? Two years. Holy shit. That's insane yeah but i mean what are you gonna yeah i'm not gonna disagree with him yeah what and what is it you can't we can all disagree with anybody you know but definitely do that i mean for for adult adult student the other thing too like about like teaching adults versus kids is everyone thinks it's so much more like noble to teach adults or whatever but they are like the most prone to quitting and most prone to injury they're the flightiest of students yeah they'll tell you they want to be a champion yeah show up once a week well like for me i i did a ton of sports and stuff and i love teaching people things like whatever under the sun and it was always like kind of like private

lessons with adults but like since teaching the kids I learned so much more about teaching adults because the mannerisms play the same reward systems and self you know achievements and stuff like that it's like chopping things down and slices yeah and like what it means to teach to a group and if I could teach it to the kids in a large setting the adults become that much better and yeah I don't uh look down on the kids in any way i think it's really you know what's the difference between kids and adults really is like everyone has different motivation systems right extrinsic reward intrinsic award some kids like praise some kids like high five

some kids need stripes right yeah they'll show you you say something nice about that they light up off and then some kids like I want to build a what about what about you about oh he's crying because all the kids gotta yell about some kids don't care adults they'll hold all that in and resent you I don't know what this guy wants like what if he's there for what he needs a slap on his back he needs verbal cues he needs me to validate his efforts, or he needs just like a friend, or whether he wants a belt. Or a community that you can provide.

I don't know. To not feel lonely. Yeah. And they're very vulnerable with that, right? They're not going to tell me like, hey, I need you to tell me that I'm good enough, or like I need the belt, or I feel like this guy's good. They won't tell me that. You can't put that on the intake waiver.

What type of praise would you like from your sensei? They'll quit before you figure it out. But a kid, you know when that kid walks in, three conversations in, how that kid is motivated. Whether it comes from their parents or whatever. There's just some kids

that just want to beat that other kid that's in front of them you know and you see those kids and then right i think that's the biggest difference for adults and kids yeah i feel like the beating the other kid comes later for some kids like once they become like i had this student and her name's lucy and she's like one of my favorite kids ever and she was like the most kind of like we're from the i'm from the south she is too like petite little southern little little girl you know would never be loud in class whatever and then she just started to get really good and then she would always train with these boys and sometimes she'd lose sometimes she'd win sometimes she'd get hurt she started to get better and

better and then one day we're at this tournament where she was just just drilling everybody just taking their backs choking all the kids and then she she just said, she's like, I like choking the kids. And I was like, what I understood her to mean is that, like, it feels good to be competent and dominant under pressure. Like, there's like 50 people watching this match this little shit guy. And then she, you know, and she beat this kid that no one thought she should beat. And, like, that's so good for your brain to experience as a kid. It is.

To just know that you can do something positive, you know. Do you play a lot of games in your class? Right now, we don't really play that many games. I think when I'm normally teaching, we normally would. Yeah. And I'm a big fan of schools that have, like, games that are fun but also have some value. But, no, it's funny. None of the kids here expect a game.

That's interesting to me. They don't expect dodgeball the last five minutes. They're the big Randori kids here. I like that. I do love throwing dodgeballs at kids. For my own stress relief. I think that was my biggest thing when I first started the program. I was much more involved

with the kids' program before, right? Because you have to be. Yeah, you have to be. In the beginning, I really wanted it to be distinguished from all the other after-school programs. There's a million of them, right? For them to come in

and then do static stretching and lift running and push-ups and all this stuff, it's like, every program does this already. So using warm-ups that are judo-specific's like, every program does this already. Yep. So, like, using warm-ups that are judo-specific, that the parent says, oh, I haven't seen this before.

Even, like, ladder drills, right? Like, certain movements of foot patterns that are, like, judo-accessible, kind of. Judo, that's not the right word. Yeah, judo-specific. So, you're doing everything in the room is skill-specific stuff and skill acquisition stuff. But even, like, Uchikomi is part of the warm-up. Yeah. Right? We're actually doing judo for the whole time. the room is skill specific stuff and skill acquisition stuff yeah even like what you call me is part of the warm-up yeah right we're actually doing judo for the whole time was the thing that i

really kind of wanted so i think that's where the base of it came from yes you know and then obviously eugene you know there was andy and there's a bunch of other guys in between but now eugene is sort of the manager of the kids director of the kids program. You're teaching twice a week. You're teaching also. And then I think it kind of like trickled down, right? Yeah. Because you don't do a traditional one of like, all right guys, touch your toes, do this kind of thing.

It's like, what for? Yeah, I mean, honestly, I've always heard that you should help them like raise their core temperature by like a degree so they're nice and warmed up and then move on. But like when I grew up, like in karate classes, everybody's like doing neck twists and counting each one in Japanese.

As hard as you can. Yeah, yeah. Like who's like, I don't know. What is, this is a waste of time. Yeah. It's such a waste of time. When you could do literally anything. You could do kata to warm up, you could do,

or like grip fighting and judo. I mean like it's defensible, right? If a kid gets hurt, it's like, did you guys properly warm up? Of course you have to have some kind of warm-up incorporated in you can't just be like all right guys we're jumping in we're going on the door yeah start slamming each other yeah you can't do that but you know what was it like growing up in this dojo doing I wanted to mention that that there's no way your dad holds your jacket when he's throwing you

it was brutal man man. It was, yeah, I mean, we didn't even have a kids program here. That's what I was going to ask. I see the pictures. Like, we did the...

There was a kids program, but then when I was a kid, it was all mixed in with adults. Oh. So, like, the kids program started, and he designed

a lot of the programs for me to be able to be a part of, right? So, like, my mom would pick me up from school and then bring me here and then like you know the kids classes start but it would be also there'd be like a 30 40 minute

overlap with the adult programs so adults can work out with the kids et cetera et cetera yeah it was kind of nuts yeah it wasn't like warm and fuzzy at all yeah yeah yeah i i mean but you know but i think it was funny to see how like training methods changes you get older and like if you think about like however we teach you now is an amalgamation of things we've all learned and then things we learned from our instructors and then things we learned from our like earliest memories and then you think about like what did your dad learn how was he treated how did my dad learn how my brother learned how were they treated and it wasn't even crazier then, you know.

Yeah. Like I speak to guys who came through that system before me and my dad was like, all right guys, 10 minute warm up, 10 minutes of break falls, 10 minutes of drills and then all of our dory after that. So it was like, that's what you do with the kids. And then, you know, on the Saturdays you see some of these black and white pictures on the wall, it'd be like 80, 90, a hundred kids coming in and they're all just kicking the shit out of each other. But like, do we see that

with the adult contests now? Like these guys come rolling in, everyone's limping out of there. Something broke. Oh God, yeah. And I'm like, this is a battle.

These guys are going to battle. But this is like not, it was good in the 70s and 80s. Yeah, yeah. But then, it's just not sustainable over a long period. So both of your parents were, you know, obviously did martial arts before the big U.S. wave in the 70s and 80s. So what was like that, to them, what was that rise?

They just got like a huge boom? Judo was really popular in the 70s. Karate was very popular. And then obviously UFC came in and then BJJ became the thing. And, you know,

even growing up in my elementary-ish, maybe like 20, 30 years ago when BJJ was kind of coming out, I was like, what is this thing?

And then even then, since we did majority judo here, and then we had traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu, so it really was like the in-between. Yeah.

So we had a lot of interest in that, you know? Cool. Yeah. And then it was popping up everywhere and it's like, oh,

you know, how come those guys are doing so good business-wise and we're terrible? People are just like getting their legs broken in Judo and like, you know, it's like not strong enough. I,

I, I, I can feel like there's like a clear change in the fortunes of karate people's lives when the Karate Kid came out in the 80s. Oh, my God. I honestly, sometimes I think about would I even be born if it wasn't for certain movies that enabled our school to succeed, which enabled my family to be financially stable for me to be born.

I don't know but like i i remember um when teenage mutant ninja turtles came out like probably like 89 90 and they did like a promotion day in our dojo and my dad had like some of those like you know little teen lackeys dressed up like ninja turtles and they like were doing kicks and stuff do karate say what ninja turtles did karate i don't know. I guess so. They kick people. They're close enough. They're dunchucks. They're turtles. They really didn't do anything. What was Master Splinter? He has a gi, right?

He seems like an old kung fu guy to me. He did Kosen Judo. Hapkido. No, but then my dad, for the big demonstration he lit two center blocks on fire and went to break and they like dim the lights down like the amount of like pageantry in that and the marketing is so great you know but then so like so then it was like this but then in the 90s all the mixed martial arts stuff came out and then it was like it invalidated everybody's

traditional martial art yeah everything sucks except for you know this very niche sport which everyone also sucks at you know there's like everyone sucked in the 90s like it makes martial arts in general like wrestlers were good you know whatever that's really the craziest thing like watching a sport like bjj evolve in real time because like i went and visited uh essential with you guys and you know there's a guy who's a blue belt but he's not really a blue belt but what is a blue belt now like a blue belt skill now is really like a black belt skill 10-15 years ago yeah and in terms of the just depth of knowledge and range movements yeah and then like I was talking to JT about

uh you know kids doing it from early childhood up. That's like the first generation you're seeing of that and that's pretty insane, but like like Judo is so popular Internationally and like karate's been around for so many years like the sport isn't quite as like it's kind of matured Yeah into what it is. It doesn't quite have these like evolutionary swings anymore, but this is like a young sport Yeah, kind of like there's something about that new territory to be found. It's like, even just on that level, it's a little more interesting. I do feel like Judo is having a popularity upswing though, right? Yeah.

Yeah, yes and no. I feel like Jiu-Jitsu guys are getting more interested in it. But in terms of overall stand-alone judo schools in the country that are thriving, I think it's sort of down-shifting. Yeah. No, that's...

That may be the future because BJJ has this huge upswing in the United States now. So now, those guys want to do stand-up, like, especially in a gi. A lot of the older guys

love gi, right? Oh, yeah. And, you know, yes, it's more visible to no-gi, right, with all the stuff happening, the promotions happening. But I think judo needs to ride the coattails of that a little bit, you know yes it's more visible the nogi right with all the stuff happening the promotions happening

but i think judo needs to ride the coattails of that a little bit you know and have like sort of these hybrid schools or teach twice a week judo classes to these guys to kind of keep the martial art alive i don't really know no yeah but it's tough it's tough to have like we're talking about this earlier like it's tough to do a little bit of judo. Tough. It's like doing a little bit of skydiving. Yeah. You don't want to dabble in certain activities. Because, like, at one of my gyms I trained at, there was, like, a wrestling class on Sundays. And it was the least popular class. Because, you know, if you go there, it's going to be, like, the guy who's really good at wrestling.

And then a couple people. And you're going to throw up in a trash can. You don't know any of the moves. And's too it's too hard it's tough man you know when you're on the fence dude do i really want to go and so you're doing judo three nights a week or something and then you're banged up from wednesday like do i want to go today you missed one class so hard to get back i'm done oh yeah just you can go six days a week no problem yeah flow roll chill take some money smaller yeah judo man your life depends on it

really you can get paralyzed break a leg that day you went through it I sure did

or somebody went through me I should say bring it back to the kids though is there

something you don't like about teaching the kids program here you can be candid I think exactly what you were saying sometimes I'm like But Ray, is there something you don't like about teaching the kids program here? You can be candid.

I think exactly what you were saying. Sometimes I'm just dealing with business stuff outside the dojo, personal stuff, and it's just like I don't want to be here. And I just have to force myself to kind of get that cheery attitude. Sometimes it's like I realize it's just me. It's not the kids. The kids are great and I'm privileged to be here

to be able to teach them but sometimes I'm just like, I'd rather be anywhere else. Yeah, yeah. That's, I mean, once you're a parent too,

I get it, right? It's like, I love my kid but then sometimes Saturday morning I didn't get good sleep and tired.

All I want to do is sleep at seven in the morning. Papa! Wake up! And she like, jumps on me and she's like shaking me. Let's play, let's play! And she, like, jumps on me, and she's, like, shaking me. Let's play, let's play.

And it's like, some days you wake up, and you're like, holy. You know, like. This is forever. Yeah, yeah. But it's like, yeah. You know, like, putting yourself in that mood to interact with the kids, because that is such a big part of the service. I mean, if I can just come in and then, like, BS with the kids all day, show them cool judo

stuff, and have them play, like, then that's a everyone do that job right? Yeah, the the goal is to do it on the range of days Yeah, and what's funny is that these kids go through ranges too with like school schedules. That's right their expectation So I come in here and I see it. It's like sometimes I gotta wake them up. Sometimes I got so much energy I'm like, all right, let's go. Yeah, and then you know, the only thing is kind of like extraneous is like, okay, then by the time I get to train at 7 p.m., 8 p.m., I am shocked. That's a tough thing. And it's really like coming to terms with that and being like, where does my participation lie in this whole thing?

Yeah. And that must be so relatable to the people who are listening. Because it's freaking three o'clock right now. Yeah. We're recording this to like three thirty, four o'clock.

Kids roll in. You guys are doing that. Right. I'm on till nine thirty p.m. Yeah. Yeah. That's a long day for you guys. Well,

and also it's the verbal demand. I'm sorry guys. No, no, no. We love to understand. You signed up for this. Yeah.

No, it's the verbal demand of talking for that amount of time. Because if you're teaching a kid's class, you're talking the whole time. And I love the sound of my own voice, so it's easier for me. But I think by the end of the kid's class, sometimes I want to eat an orange in the changing room and look at my phone. And I don't want anyone to even look at me because i just get over you can get overstimulated from it yeah that's you know the sensei voice i realize i'm just like projecting now a little bit harder like when i you know but it just you

kind of have to reach this tonality to operate yeah yeah yeah when you teach kids all day your dad ever come home and has a sensei voice my mom used to be like fucking yeah you know dojo oh that's funny yeah you gotta turn it off had to be stern with him did not my dad was always like pretty quiet at home i think because he was always like i mean he would teach like let's say like four classes in the evenings like every day and so by the time he comes home it's like he just wants to eat yeah maybe go for a jog and then like watch some TV and then just he doesn't want to like

get into it about anything you know which I actually completely understand you know there's a tone though there's a tone

you know like remember when my dad was like alright guys dinner and my mom was like what the fuck is this alright let's go

you know it's like mom was like fucking chill, I guess. You know, it's like, uh, mom's like, fucking chill. We're equals. Yeah. No, and honestly, that's one of the funniest things too. Like the thing about the voice is that we all talk like our instructor to some point. Yeah.

And sometimes it's so embarrassing. Like, like, you see like white guys with Brazilian accents. Oh, it's terrible. I know, I know what you're doing. Please be yourself. Or the white guy with the Japanese accent, which in karate is the only one to have. There's so many white guys doing a Miyagi voice in karate to this day.

Okay, punch, same, same. It's like hibachi chef level energy. I see this all the time when I'm doing the media stuff with the BJJ guys and even judo to a certain extent. Everybody knows how to perform in front of the class. They know that lecture style. And now I'm trying to break them out of it. Why are you doing this? It's the only thing.

You learned. You succeeded. Then you taught. And that's successful. You're getting money. So let me look into the camera and do the same thing. I'm like, it doesn't work thing, like, you learned, you succeeded, then you taught, and that's successful, you're getting money. So let me look into the camera and do the same thing. I'm like, it doesn't work here in that same way. Yeah. Yeah.

Your regular day-to-day speech has to be that when you're teaching almost. And that's a really good, you know, because people have, like, professor talk. Yeah. Or podium talk. You know, like, what is the, one of my friends who was a lawyer pointed it out to me. He's like, what is that mode of talking? Like, today, we find ourselves in the do me. He's like, what is that mode of talking? Like, today we find ourselves in the dojo. I was like, what is that?

What would come up with that? Kingdom speech. And then it was a function of like echoing and stuff like that. But we just love it as people. Just like, ah, yes, this guy. We want to be roused. Exactly. Yeah.

I mean, that's part of it. I see a lot of people come in here for that reason right for that like kind of leadership thing where like uh you can't you can't find that at like a planet fitness and like rock climbing gym you're not gonna find that so it's like they there's a lot of that people want it i don't know i i wish i had a more commanding like sensei voice because i think i've taught too many kids to where I always have the, let me explain to these seven-year-olds why they're in timeout voice. Even in conflict. I was walking down the street with my girlfriend.

We were going to go to Central Park, and this crazy person or weird person, I don't know if they were crazy. They were just strange. They kind of brushed by my girlfriend and they they stiff-armed her as is crazily she's like walk away watch where you're going like that yeah and i was like hey why don't you watch where you're going we're going this way and then and then she starts going crazy and saying all this stuff to me she's like i'm in the crib and i was just like i don't care if you're in the crib i can tell that like even though this might lead to a physical altercation

which i don't want to i'm still talking to her the way i would lead to a physical altercation, which I don't want it to, I'm still talking to her the way I would talk to a child. And I wish I had some kind of Steven Seagal voice. Not that he can fight, but he has a cool-sounding voice. Where I was like... I don't sound that way. I sound like a concierge who's telling you there's no more carriage rides on a Sunday.

This is the least intimidating voice. but it's great for teaching kids yeah yeah kids teaching kids it's a challenge right you got a structure of the time you have to manage the space and you have to be the leader in the room but it's the lifeblood of the sport yeah I mean hopefully these kids go on and do big things in judo you know different areas yeah and also financially you have to teach kids like you kind of do yeah for most schools yeah yeah i mean yeah adults can't come here at four o'clock yeah yeah can't fill the 5 p.m slot either those get off work at 5 30 you know most it's just in new york yeah not getting off before five you know make a four o'clock class you know what i mean yeah so so you have to almost fill that slot and you're gonna

fill it with kids and you know it's just a thing right yeah but it is funny to have like grown up in the sport and then be on the other side of it i think honestly that's why i attribute all my skill with teaching kids to that is that i remember being a kid in class. I remember what it was like. I remember how boring it was. It could be boring man. Oh it could be so boring. Yeah. Yeah. It can be brutally boring. Yeah. Alright we're gonna do a hundred Uchikomis and you're like this Jesus Christ. You know what I mean? Like it was the worst. Here's a number. It's like it's gonna be 30 today. It's like this god damn it. You just gotta like do it. sucks it's boring you have no reason to be doing it you're just kind of being forced to do it and if you start messing around you get

yelled at but that's fun too see what you can get away with oh yeah we're like i remember one time i went to a i did judo for like six seconds when i was a kid yeah and we and me and my brother who also you know just hated he didn't want to have fun we went to a judo seminar at six seconds when I was a kid and me and my brother who also you know just hated he didn't want to have fun we went to a judo seminar at the Citadel so it's a bunch it's like 50 cadets and then me and my stupid brother and they're like okay this is Oshiro Biro Jiro Goshi and we're just like oh my god I felt like I slow danced with my brother for two hours it was the worst thing I've ever been to. I don't remember anything.

Yeah, you got to show the kids the throw. Yeah. Make it relatable. Like, I used to say, like, oh, this is a Batman throw. Oh, nice. And then it's Ippon Sanagi. And you're showing Ippon Sanagi, and then you rip it off. Boom!

And then you don't let the kids know that you didn't do it. And they're like, holy, you know? Yeah. And it's like, anyone want to see it again? Right? And then like, yes, yes. Oh, you know, do it and they're like holy you know yeah that's like anyone want to see it again right and then like yes yes oh you know it's like all right you know batman does it superman does it and then the kids are like oh i learned this yeah you could throw you out of shape dad with this move and then they get all hyped up because now like oh i could flip someone you know now it's a different ball game now you have the kids attention that's right show you how it's done i'm not 100 no no one gives a

he bought said i eat what the hell is that yeah i love to raise the stakes for kids in a way that doesn't really matter and they know it's a joke it's so funny like it's like halloween time but okay guys in this next match whoever loses has to give up all their candy and they're like no you're lying I like no I actually can't or you get all since hey Greg's money he's gonna bring a big golf check if you win this they were screaming at me for hours it's so fun teaching kids but it is so demanding and you have to always be on it's truly challenge yeah Yeah, it's a safety thing to Yeah Anything else you guys want to leave off with the kids program advice to people who are listening watching who teach learn from learn from Joe

Yeah, if I had any advice I would say number one background check all your instructors Yes advice I would say number one background check all your instructors make sure you have in part yes is physically safe and mentally safe and then just take it serious don't treat it like a watered-down adult class treat it like a separate activity and then you know and prosper make all your money and cut cakes with a samurai sword would be my fourth tip the fourth down the line and if you ever if you guys ever need a an airbnb property manager oh he gave the sales pitch this whole joke manager's 26 properties yep 26 properties three of which are mine right and counting and counting so we'll talk about real estate one of these days black belt this

yeah all right guys thanks everybody