The Shintaro Higashi Show - New IJF Rules - Leg Grabs Aren’t Dead

Episode Date: December 23, 2024

The new IJF rule set has sparked significant debate in the Judo community, with controversial changes and intriguing predictions about the sport's future. In this episode, Shintaro and Peter talk about the details of the rule updates, including the return of Yuko scoring, adjustments to head safety rules, and the evolving stance on leg grabs. Shintaro shares insights from his commentary experience at the Tokyo Grand Slam and provides his predictions for the future of leg grabs in Judo. The discussion also explores changes in gripping rules, passivity penalties, and their potential impact on match dynamics. (00:00:00) Introduction (00:01:11) Shintaro’s Commentary Experience at Tokyo Grand Slam (00:01:52) Predictions on Leg Grabs Returning (00:03:24) The Return of Yuko Scoring (00:04:49) Changes to Head Safety Rules (00:07:17) Bear Hugs and Adjustments to Gripping Rules (00:07:33) New “Leg Grab” Rules (00:10:05) Clarifying the Out-of-Bounds Rule (00:11:47) Kansetsu Waza Applied During a Throw (00:13:07) Changes in Newaza Rules (00:14:38) Potential Conflicts Between New Rules (00:17:05) The IJF’s Iterative Approach to Rule Changes (00:18:32) Future Speculations: Leg Grabs After World Championships (00:19:22) Spotlight on American Competitor Yang at Tokyo Grand Slam If you're in business, then you have customer churn. Whether you're building a startup, growing a mom & pop shop, or operating in a fortune 500 powerhouse, Hakuin.ai measures, predicts, and improves your customer retention. https://hakuin.ai

When you're going for an inside trip and the hand slides down to the butt, they're like, oh, the hand you assisted in grabbing is below the belt penalty. Or if you're doing like someone's doing a throw and then you block, the leg's like, oh, that's a penalty. And it kind of got a little bit crazy. So now they're like, all right, let's just allow that. These things that people really, really complained about. And then it was very tricky to see like hey

Did he bridge off his head? Did he dive over his head? Did the hair brush the floor or did he use his head to actually finish the score? Because when your hands are tied up and you're throwing the guy if you let go the hand to post You don't have control anymore So they'll hold on to the ghee and in the very last minute They'll bridge off to their forehead and then drive using their legs and arms and they didn't want people doing that anymore right hello everyone welcome back to the Shintaro Higashi show with Peter Yu today

IJF rules set huge deal it's kind of official now yeah yeah you're on the ground with a bunch of people that are like probably very familiar with the new rules and how they came up with these rules, right? So, yes, I was at the Tokyo Grand Slam just recently and then a week later they had this... It's technical meeting. They call it a technical meeting in Istanbul in Turkey between December 14th and 15th and that's when all the new rules were gonna be public so there's a lot of murmurs a week leading up to it yeah yeah yeah and we all know the result of that now we do now we do no leg grabs really but before one week all the top dogs were like, there's gonna be leg grabs. There's gonna be leg grabs.

Yeah, well then the Kodokan was trying it out, right? Yeah. But then the rules come out, no leg grabs. But this is my personal opinion that no one really said this yet but I think that they're gonna ease that in there because there were now on not yet it's a new iterations or like within the current rule set well no so the new iterations solid it's here until the World Championships in June and they mentioned that from now until June the first event being Paris Grand Slam it always is right in February yeah in February. It's a huge deal. Usually that's the event that has the newest rulesets always. Every quad or so. But every year they kind of little by little adapt and change. So up until the point of the senior world championships, they're going to keep explaining stuff, things

are going to make sense, little by little. and then I feel after the senior world championships they're gonna introduce more leg grabs. That's my personal guess. That's no one's opinion, no one has said this to me. That's gonna be my guess. My personal prediction. Because how can all the top dogs tell me, you know, oh they're gonna be leg grabs, and then the rules come out, there's no leg grabs. I do like this kind of methodical like careful approach though. Yeah, because it's a it's a big change and then You do want to be you do want to test it and in a more manageable way Yeah, so do you want to start off with the leg grab stuff before we move on to the other ones? Yeah, I think I'm off

Yeah, let's actually let's just go through the small ones first. So Yuko is back. Yes. It says, Yuko, which is a much smaller score, usually there's Wazari Nippon now, but Yuko's not a cumulative score, it's a smaller score. They got rid of it. But now they're bringing it back.

And on the IJF website it says, hey, addition of a third score Yuko, in in the waz that'll be given at five seconds but it's not very clear but if you watch the video of the actual rules seminar they say yes you could score with throws you go throw yeah and the criteria is not quite 90 degrees but a little bit more on the front right closer than 90 degrees yeah was out it will be for bigger throw yes yeah so you can watch the technical video on judotv.com. It's out there. So you can use discount code Shintaro as always. Sign up for a JudoTV account and watch it.

Yeah. So brief thought on why they brought it back. Yuko? Yeah, Yuko. I don't know man. I mean, cause there's, I don't know. I have no idea. Maybe it's just, my take is that was I already became to water down? Maybe maybe Yeah, I think there's a lot of scores that are almost scores You know that don't get scored and then all of a sudden like the guy gets taken down three times like on their stomach Yeah, then all of a sudden the other guy catches the guy for a small score now. They he wins or something like that. So right right Maybe we'll see how that goes anyway that's so I think there's some grip like so head head bombing it's okay yeah well it will be

panelized wish you know it's not as penalized as heavily dude they kind of completely went the opposite way if your head touches the floor it's you're out that was their number one thing Yeah, but that rule was so strict and everyone complained about it in the beginning But if you watch the Tokyo Grand Slam, which I did I was there for commentating people didn't do it. I Mean, yeah, the rules really started shaping the way judo looks and it looked a lot safer because people aren't diving forward yeah, doing somersaults off of the SOTYs and things like that because they don't want to get penalized.

And now I feel like it was settled in and then they're changing this. I'm a little bit against this because it's a safety issue. I'm a big fan of like how IJF is very aware of safety. You know? And then the interesting thing is they will still penalize it in cadet events. Yeah, they should. So maybe they have some data. They're very data driven, right?

Maybe they saw more of the danger in the cadet level. Potentially. Not as much. Yeah, we'll see. But the issue was they would do so-de and then the guy's hair would brush the floor and we would get penalized and be out. So like these things that people really, really complained about. And then it was very tricky to see like,

hey, did he bridge off his head? Did he dive over his head? Did the hair brush the floor? Or did he use his head to actually finish the score? Because when your hands are tied up and you're throwing the guy, if you let go of the hand to post, you don't have control anymore. So they'll on to the ghee and in the very last minute

they'll bridge off to their forehead then drive using their legs and arms and they didn't want people doing that anymore right so like all these things have been kind of it was just too tricky to say like what's what so I think they just kind of went with you know what it's fine you could use your head fucking you know do everything you want yeah all right and then oh so other than that oh Korean serenagi is now allowed yeah again yeah that's what I heard yeah yeah so other than that I think those are the minor stuff I think let's go let's go to the leg wraps. Yeah. Did I miss anything? No, I mean, yeah, there's a bunch. Bearhog.

All grips are allowed now. Oh, like pistols fine. That's what they say. Oh, okay. All jacket grips. And gripping under the belt to the level of the top inner thigh are allowed. So what was happening... That's the leg rep thing I I thought you could now like do like a

maybe like a little like a knee tap kind of thing I don't think you do that okay but their biggest thing when they were talking about leg touching yeah is that when you're going for an inside trip and the hand slides down to the butt yeah they're like all the hand you know you assisted and grabbing the is below the belt penalty right or if you're doing like someone's doing a throw and then you like block you know like so all that's a penalty and it got kind of got a little bit crazy so now they're like all right let's just allow that you know I see yeah and then they denoted like where the leg begins right so it's the inner thigh the inseam you know where they

measure the jeans and the inseam yeah that's where the leg begins right so it's the inner thigh the inseam you know where they measure the jeans and the inseam Yeah, that's where the legs begin So above that essentially you could touch the butt now. I see I see Whether this means like you could do a take room on yeah, that's what I was wondering I'm the way I Interpreted was that you could do a take room on and yeah, so they're working on the interpretation you know they kind of throw these out there and then they discuss it and then after every competition they'll have a meeting before the competition they have a meeting so they're gonna really sort of refine these things and I think this is their way into okay little by little now

we could kind of start going above the knee that's my guess yeah but that's purely my guess you know right right right so as of right now though you can't just grab a leg and take him down which is I see so this is more to prevent cases that the controversial cases where like yeah like the hand slips down and then people get penalized for it I see and now also another one is kunikata Would be given 30 seconds time for an attack. I don't really know what that means. I didn't actually watch the video yet Yeah, so I'm gonna have to kind of get back to you on that this guy Brian taught

He's an international IJF world tour referee. He's an American Mmm, so I'm gonna have him on the podcast and really kind of deep dive it. Oh, yeah Yeah, you'd be the best person. He was there and they were talking about the leg portion of it They demonstrated it on him. So he really knows Yeah, and then the bear hug bear hug they don't want people clasp on the hands behind the back because a lot of Yeah pressure on the spine they think Before if you had one grip behind the back you could

dive and grab it with all their hand. You just couldn't dive with both hands behind the back. Right, right. But yeah I don't know why they introduced this one. I don't know why. I'm always baffled by it. Yeah there's a question for Brian. a question for Brian. Yeah, question for Brian. Unintentionally leaving the contest area, and Nwaza will be given mate, which means, you know, nothing to me. But they did tell me before this whole thing was released that they're gonna really, really reconsider all the stepping out of bounds stuff.

Because previously, up until this recent tournament, it's unclear like what does it mean to what it means to so the stepping out of bounds and out of bounds in bounds it's always sort of been this gray area right if you look at wrestling they did this yeah they did this in a way where it's like all right oh you lose a point right well now you can't if you step outside of the ring you're done it's like sumo it's clear as night and day Whether I push you out of bounds or you step out of bounds

It doesn't matter if you touch the space outside the line. That's it. You get you lose a point The other guy gets a point. Yeah, right. I'm now. Yeah, so they solved that sumo has solved it. Obviously. It's very clear But in judo wasn't clean because if you solved it, obviously, it's very clear. But in Judo, it wasn't clean. Because if you float out of bounds, it's your penalty. But if I physically push you out of bounds, it's my penalty. But if I'm attacking you out of bounds, it's okay. But if I'm pushing you out of bounds, but you do an attack, that's fine. So it was a very gray area. Unless you like egregiously like step out and walk off the mat, right? Right. It was kind of like up to interpretation

So I think this is their new way of being like, all right, that's really really clean this thing up But based on the press release The text yeah, true. Yeah, it's very brief. It's not clear. It's terse I'm gonna watch the video and then I'm gonna give you guys a detail i should have watched it before but i was just too busy you know and then concepts was uh apply while performance throws with high injury risks yeah will be penalized with hansokumaki with where uke cannot escape yeah i wonder what the well so the number one thing right now, right? Yeah is when the gold person goes into Sode Yeah, and they slam into the back of their elbow and then they extend the elbow. Yeah. Yeah, right guys will go down screaming. Ah Yeah, and then the other guy gets a penalty or Hatsuki make and then he gets up bows

Then you know jumps up and down enjoy right? Yeah. Yeah, so They were like this kind of ridiculous ridiculous so they really wanted to reconsider that obviously you could do a walking atami and then slam your hips into the guy's elbow and take him down and that's always been a penalty right because you don't give them the opportunity to tap but they're really sort of looking over this like Sode into the elbow thing right because you can't stop it if the extended you slam it into the back of the elbow so I think that's what it has to do with so they're like but being more careful to delineate between what's escape or what's not and then what's not

escapeable has become like it is now and then what's escapeable yeah it's it'll go it's gonna be a mat there or she does yes I see and then what's escapable it's you know it's gonna be a Mateo or Shiro. Yes. I see. And then the positive activity in Nawaz will be taken into consideration that's for penalties like for stalling penalties. Oh I see I was like oh it's not about the Nawaz o'clock it's about the uh. Yes so if you're not attacking at all on the feet but very aggressively trying to turn the person consistently right? you get a passivity yeah but you're not gonna get passivity anymore because they're gonna take into

consideration your offense on the ground. yeah if you so if you yeah that I think there might be I think this is a positive change. I think it'll encourage more action in the ground. We covered all of it already. And like you said, Korean Say Nagi is allowed. That's really cool. Accepting cadet events. It seems like they saw all this dangerous know using the head or Korean sailway maybe they thought after all this experimentation they realized it's more dangerous to the cadets. Of course yeah yeah you know you look at senior competition people get injured all the time dude yeah yeah get mangled so they were like yeah I mean they're like, oh, you know, you're doing it for as your job.

So it's a necessary risk. I don't know. Yeah, it's just I'm I kind of stopped doing Korean Sae-Woon again. Anyway, it's really dangerous. I'll tell you what, man. I don't know how judo is going to look after all these rules are implemented. This Kumikata will be given 30 seconds time for an attack stuff I like People will get five Shidos and out

oh Because four Shidos two versus two and then you get a fifth one on the board one person getting DQ'd I'd much rather see two guys not actually engaging so much I'd rather see those guys penalized out in under a minute and off the mat than sitting through a seven, eight minute match where they're just not doing anything. I'd much rather than just get, all right, you guys aren't willing to do it?

All right, get out of here. And it's good because it forces the action and then it's much more easy for people to watch. And then people like complain, oh, she know this, she know that. Yeah, but if you're not giving out penalties, then they're not going to engage. I think that's the... Yeah, like I understand people when people complain about there's so many Shidos.

I mean, of course, who doesn't want to see a big bone match, you know? But it needs to be fast-paced in any combat sport passive you know it's still better in every combat sport like combating people's passivity I mean because that's a legit strategy that's like one of the most you know risk-averse like yeah strategies like boxing you know all that but they have the whole they like hug it out and stuff and then you have to constantly I don't know It's just okay. I I get that I do right now man. I don't know if these are gonna be Overall net positive. I don't I don't know yet. I really don't you know and I think some of these

Can affect it in a negative way truthfully, you but such as such as such as okay 30 seconds for right kumikata and now all of a sudden they're doing the Korean Sanagi but if you're going against the joint okay so now you have two new rules that are gonna kind of semi conflict with each other because you're talking about two hands on one arm etc etc right but if you're doing Korean Sanagi with two hands on the lapel but cranking into the elbow and the guy goes out screaming you know what i mean that's gonna kind of make it a little bit tricky and you're gonna get drop and flopper guys guys are gonna do shitty drop shitty drops or stall and stall and stalling but then

there's a couple of good maneuvers on the ground who aren't gonna get penalized which is gonna drag out the match even more. I think this is why I like the approach the IAJF takes where they have this cycle and they introduce new more bigger changes in the beginning and so they kind of test it out and as you get to the you know key keynote events yep and they are no dummies man they are very very very capable and everyone's so quick to judge them and yes they give me money to be a commentator and I know all these guys now and you know there are some biases right me as a human being I know all these people, but you know, I think this is just the beginning. I'll say this as an AI researcher, right? A lot of times these things are so complex that, like you said, it's really hard to predict the output.

Yeah. Right. So the only way to really is to try. And then I applaud the IAJF to really make changes in a systematic way and then try it out and then change when things don't work out. I think that's the most important thing because judo is so complex now it's really hard to you know like change the rules and then like expect the outcome there's so many unintended consequences so you just have to try it out in small small steps and Budapest World Championships it's gonna be in June

and I'll probably be commentating at that and that's when this this specific rule set ends and then I think they're gonna bring back after that but that's just my own personal prediction you know so maybe we'll title this episode leg grabs aren't dead and that it's very Beatty it's a personal prediction no one told me this you know cuz I haven't spoken to anyone that was there yet and I will I'm I'm going to talk to Brian Toth. Yeah. And he's a very knowledgeable guy.

He was at the Tokyo Grand Slam with me and he was refereeing. And I had a nice chance to have a couple of chats with him, Matt's side. It's always nice to have another American on the circuit. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's good to see. And I think there's a this is kind of a side point. I think there was a guy from America. of a side point. I think there was a

Guy from America, I think he might be a teenager cadet level He was like nominated for like a award or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he's amazing. He's amazing His dad's cool, you know, oh, you know good Yeah, he's just won the world cadets took 50 worlds. I think he's awesome. Yeah, and he was at the Tokyo Grand Slam Oh, okay. I think you want a match. I think oh man. He's awesome man. He's awesome He's uh, there's footage of him training at the Tokyo Grand Slam camp the training camp. That is the room to train it. Oh Yeah, and there's video surfacing morale versus I think it was my sorority The it was like an Olympic finals and they're just training at the court Because Kota together because I used to train with those you go for the Tokyo Grand Slam

you stay for the camp yeah and then it's amazing because every person who competed at the Tokyo Grand Slam is not in that room right and and the high school kids the university kids all the Japanese like top level guys that they want to bring up through the system yeah and you see like high school nobodies from Japan who like top five top ten In Japan that no one's ever heard of like throwing Olympians High level Olympians. It's yeah, really really incredible Yeah, the level is yeah that so but yeah, he was out there There's footage of him going against Olympic champs and stuff

And you know a lot of historically you see some of these Americans who are on the circuit that aren't very good They're avoiding the top guys They're trying not to make eye contact with the big dogs to not take a beating right gang was out there You know battling with the the best of the best which is a really good sign For LA for him. Yeah for LA so him yeah that's got you know definitely excited mm-hmm things happening here we'll see if USA Judo could pull together and in a time of need and kind of put their best foot forward but yeah it's time to thank our sponsors now rep drew Jason Levant thank

you very much judo TV TV of course, use discount coaching to our Higashi brand. If you run a business there's churn. Whether you're building a startup, growing a mom-and-pop shop, or operating a fortune 500 POS, or Judo Dojo. That's right, Hakuin.com.ai. So measures, predicts, and improves your customer retention.

Link in description. Thanks, Drew, again. We should have Drew on, because he works in tech also. He's a smart guy, he's a judo black belt. Yeah, we could have like a... Now that we're like, kind of dabbling into tech too, I can... Yeah. Yeah, we can... We should have him on. Asian Nerds Do Judo should be the name of our podcast Nerdy nerdy agents grapple and do stuff talk about like I said, you know And a lot of there's a lot of Asian nerds doing BJJ now Yeah, all right, you know Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in Japan taking off. Oh

You saw that? Yeah, I? I did a seminar over there oh yeah the Carpe Diem Carpe Diem in Naha, Okinawa they were all Americans though oh Okinawa oh you flew to Okinawa too

and then we got to talk about the Brazilian jiu-jitsu circuit in Japan and how it's one of the fastest growing things You know you sure yeah, we should have a dedicated episode about that. It was really cool, man There was a few Japanese guys that took the seminar who were like late 30s never grappled It looked like the average Jiu-Jitsu guy here You know and it was like wow This is a whole new demographic for the Japanese

community to grapple because these guys weren't doing judo yeah you know they didn't didn't do it you know I'm sure they did in high school and stuff but that's it never really I see they love it now you know so they're very interesting yeah yeah we should just talk about that for sure alright cool thanks for listening guys and we'll see you guys in the next episode.