The Shintaro Higashi Show - No-gi Judo

Episode Date: December 25, 2023

With no-gi grappling's meteoric rise, no-gi Judo has recently been gaining attention. What exactly is no-gi Judo? Is it basically just Judo without the gi, or is it an entirely different sport that deserves its own spotlight? In this episode, Shintaro and Peter discuss no-gi Judo: how they have been approaching it, and how we as Judokas should approach it. Join our Discord server and start chatting with us and other grapplers by supporting us on Patreon: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/shintaro_higashi_show⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Any amount helps!

hello everyone welcome back to the shintaro higashi show with peter you first and foremost thank you to our sponsors jason and levon you too can be a sponsor of our show go to our patreon site yeah and check it out check it out check it out you get to join our discord server and talk to other people like-minded people who are interested in judo and all other grappling arts yes and you get a shout out that's the biggest part yeah how awesome is that thank you jojo thank you jessica what is that app called that like you can pay cameo cameo hey maybe this is better than cameo that's right i'll even say your name and then say os that's right all right so what are we talking about today no gi judo no gi judo it's a phenomenon

yeah i think i'm hearing a lot of the you know when i go through the comments on reddit on youtube i see a lot of people mentioning this you know it's pretty new i think you know it's new very new judo has always been about the gi you know yep so and i get a lot of questions now hey can you do a seminar no gi judo seminar yeah that's one of my biggest requests oh i see yeah so what is no gi judo to you or like what's the general definition i guess yeah used to be that i would say it's freestyle wrestling. Right. Yeah. But now it's taken on a different form. It means something completely different now. Because the people who are asking for no-gi judo aren't wrestlers.

They're Brazilian jiu-jitsu guys who do no-gi. Right? Yeah. And there's some flaws with wrestling straight up blasting into a double and exposing the neck. Right? Et cetera, et cetera. And front headlock position, guillotine risk is so high that a lot of guys tend to take a much more upright position when they're doing nogi jitsu, right?

I see, I see. Yes. So naturally, like it becomes a little bit more upright upper body. I mean, obviously depending on the weight classes that you're at, right? We're not talking about like lightweight. We're talking about like middleweights and above mostly. Yeah. And lightweights tend to do this too, but mostly the visible middleweights and above.

Right, right. They take a little bit more of an upright format because they don't want to get caught in the front headlock or et cetera, et cetera. So now, de-ashi-barae, footsies, all this stuff opens up and everyone wants to see a big throw. You know? Yeah. And traditionally, folk style wrestling, which is the main style, colleg-style wrestling for the United States, they don't reward big throws. For safety reasons. For safety reasons, insurance reasons.

They favor control over back exposure, which is more freestyle. So now, all of a sudden, collegiate wrestling doesn't have a very strong upper-body throwing style. Because even if you throw the person you get overrolled right and if you shoot it on a bad double you get guillotined so people are like alright what is a good way you know to like reduce some of these risks of neck

exposure and etc etc people who are standing more upright engaging in more foot sweep like attacks and then big throws you know that's sort of a crowd pleaser you don't get rewarded in jiu-jitsu either yeah right but because of these positions you see more action there you know right right so that's why little by little people like oh you know like when someone shoots it on a single throws an overhook you see people going for uchimata i've seen a lot of, it's like a one-handed Uchimata with an overhook, a lot of that, right? And now the terminology is Uchimata, right?

Yeah. No one says, oh, inner thigh throw or a Brazilian person's name. It hasn't happened yet. I mean, we actually a, we actually have a episode dedicated to this. You know? Yes. Judo techniques

and why they are important and why this is good. Yeah. But, yeah, it's kind of cool to see that like those terminologies seeping through.

But then, I mean, if you look at like the terminologies like Ashigurami is leg entanglement, Uchimata is inner thigh throw, right? Inner thigh. So like it kind of makes sense.

It's systematic and you can kind of if you know the words, you can guess how the throws work. Yeah. And clearly the origin of that name wasn't some Brazilian dude that invented it in the favelas.

It's a Japanese term. So then it's like, oh, jiu-jitsu comes from judo. It must be a judo throw yeah because judo is more so now there's sort of like this cross-branding thing of like oh nogi judo that's what it is so then then what you can one can argue that greco-roman style wrestling may work as well in the more upright posture, right? Like, why is that not taking off as much? Well, because you can't touch your legs at all.

So it's more limiting, is that why? It is limiting, but, you know, you can shoot it for, like, a body lock, and climb up the body and then go just purely upper body. Because you can't even trip with your legs in the yeah yeah so it kind of makes sense for no judo to kind of start taking off little by little but it's such a new thing yeah and most judo guys aren't equipped to teach nogi judo right and they immediately go like all right kala tie you know lapel and sleeve kala tie and wrist it's just not sticky enough. It's too easy.

You can't hold on. And the positions that you invert your hand and stuff like that, you can still hold on to the gi, but you can't invert your hand with a collar hand and then put sufficient downward force because the head can slip out easily. It's just not enough control. So in order to account for that and adjust

to that, that is no-gi judo. There's a whole magic behind being able to apply these techniques from different positions, and you have to know those positions. That's the new sort of meta. This is our previous episode, the Meta Gang. Have you ever given a nogi judo seminar yet? Yeah, I have.

Okay. So actually, let's kind of talk about that. What do you teach there? Have you ever given a dogi judo seminar yet? Yeah, I have. Okay, okay. So actually, let's kind of talk about that. What do you teach there? So I'll go over some of the basic throws, like inside trip from chest to chest and things like that. But I like teaching sort of systematic methods, right, for judo. Because anybody can teach this is tai toshi, this is osorigari. But it's absolutely useless without the context of when to hit it, right?

Where's your winning position? Having an underhook controlling versus having a controlling overhook, very different positions. Even if I have the underhook, the person has a strong overhook and they're clamping down on that arm, your arm is useless, right? So get into that position and how do you make use of that underhook by going to the side first? Because they're clamping down on that overhook so you go Sasai and then off balance and then this direction

and then when they're recovering then you can hike up that arm and control the space underneath their arm right and then if you have the wrist now you can enter your hips into Uchimata

so it's like right versus left having that frame on the pulse of the collar and keeping that and then having advantages there what does that look like

in a Nogi setting and the distance between the two athletes are different because Judo you can be arms length away keeping that, and then having advantages there. What does that look like in a nogi setting? And the distance between the two athletes are different. Because judo, you can be arm's length away and then have winning position, right? Because you could pull them in at any time. But with the grips with hand-length distance, arm's length distance, you can't really pull them in so much.

So it becomes more of a pushing game and then entering in to the pocket going chest to chest and then locking like an underhook or a body like hand locked around the body yeah or even like a cinch headlock kind of a position right so getting there and then keeping dominant position there that's majority of the game and then you work two or three different attacks i see so so you mostly work on those positions yeah the positions yeah holds and stuff and then like front headlock is a big one oh okay you can throw from front headlock a lot of people don't know you could do sumi gaeshi yeah right you could do ochi osoto harai

you could do all those things you could do the cow catcher or like a cement mixer series like all the wrestlers do yeah so but without those fundamental wrestling moves from that front headlock, it's very difficult to implement some of these other ones. Right, right. You know? It's only how you know the main lines and then how to break from those main lines and integrate the throwing into that, it becomes useful. Right.

So how did you develop this system? Because you've never, I mean, no uki judo is so new that no one, you definitely didn't take a class. Is it based on your wrestling experience and judo experience? Yeah, I wrestled in high school and college. Yeah. And not to take anything away from my wrestling coaches back in the day, but they weren't, you know, I didn't have the best coaches in wrestling, you know. And they would teach me wrestling, but I didn't really get a lot of shots so they would teach me a couple of shots but then i didn't have that much success with it yeah so i had heavily relied on my judo

oh okay in high school okay right so you were you were kind of doing nogi judo in high school it was mostly nogi judo yeah i didn't have a stand-up from bottom. I didn't know how to ride legs. I didn't know how to do any of that stuff. Literally went out there, tried to force a tie up, and then throw them. And then pin. And then just pin them. And I had over 100 wins in high school. I was really good at it, and I would just throw everyone to their back.

I could get taken down two or three times and be down in points. It was kind of difficult to take me down, but I would get taken down every now and then yeah and then i'll just be like i don't care as long as i get up to my feet and lock them yeah in like i'll throw them i mean it's a different meta game so a lot of people didn't know how to defend against they're not defending it and then you know i've had some issues where guys just wouldn't lock up and then shoot low singles yeah and then get destroyed that way yeah yeah you know. You know? I wrestled Chris Weidman when I was in college and he wouldn't lock up on me

and he's a lead leg left and then he would just slide by, slide by, wouldn't tie up, slide by, single, single and it was like, I couldn't throw him. Did he know

that you were a judo guy? Oh, yeah. Everyone knew I was a judo guy. I see. I would just hear guys in the crowd like, don't lock up on him. So his meta, he had a meta to respond to your game.

Yeah, so my wrestling was so bad that the wins and losses didn't show it. I was all-state in high school. I was all-state in college. I had hundreds of wins. But as a wrestler, I wasn't a good wrestler because I didn't know any wrestling back then I see I had a high crotch I had a high C

that was nasty and you take anybody down once with a high C you know you could do that in judo too back then yes yeah

so I had a really nice integrated style and most of it was just trial and error being in the room practice room shooting in climbing up

shooting in climb up the body take a double bad double climb up the body anytime someone shot double, bad double, climb up the body. Anytime someone shot in on a leg, I would sprawl front headlock and then try to throw from there. I see. I see.

You know, and I wish I did a little bit more of like pure wrestling back then. Yeah. But, you know, I wasn't coached in a way where, you know, like snap down, go behind, snap down, go behind is like sort of the traditional thing. Right. But I wouldn't even try to do it. Literally, if someone was shooting in the front of the knock i would connect my hands and hike their head up into my armpit uh as if i was doing like a guillotine yeah but then i was

just trying to throw from there or sort of or ochi i see well so now that's how you so you kind of naturally were doing nogi judo before it was cool basically and yeah and then the foot sweeps and stuff like that and it was so good because I wrestled 215 in high school, 197 in college. I even wrestled 184

a little bit. Yeah. But the heavier guys tend to lock up. They love locking up. Right, right. So it was just like perfectly fortunate.

It's hard for them to do the low single game at that size. Yeah. And when they, when I had encountered those guys, I can beat those guys. Yeah, I couldn't beat those guys.

I didn't know any better. And I was bad at getting out of bottom too. So like we were talking, if you had wrestled Kale Sanderson with all these ankle picks. He would tech me. In about 20 seconds. Even without that too. I mean, that guy's a monster. Yeah, yeah. about 20 seconds even without that too i mean that kind of monster yeah yeah but so now so that's how

you kind of developed your own nogi judo system but yeah now that this is almost becoming its own thing how would you approach it if you were to start again or like anyone like this some aspiring like nogi grappler trying to develop this-gi judo game how would you go about learning that like do you would would would that person go and take a judo class or no they would definitely not take a judo class because yes some of the movements are similar like if you're doing an uchimata on the crash mat all the time you get the basic gist of how to move your body to load the person onto your hip and throw them etc etc right right but that skill doesn't directly translate over now all of a sudden magically in a nogi setting it has to be treated as a separate thing it's like kind of you know

so this is the thing right you're in the room you know you're probably doing jujitsu if you're listening to this yeah uh and then you have some wrestling yeah some wrestling you're in the room wrestling doing grappling yeah yeah takedown submissions etc etc whatever it is the context that you're doing so now all of a sudden when someone shoots in on a single you go for overhook and wrist and then you pull them up yeah as opposed to going and sprawling and doing the traditional thing yeah you kind of let them climb up and then you try to throw from there yeah and you try to specialize in that position and it's risky. Because generally, these things are considered late stage defenses.

When someone shoots in on a leg, let's just say it's a single, you want to stuff the head and put your weight over that head and then sprawl your legs back to put them in an extended position. So that's generally the best practices. Right. Safer. Safer. If you can't stuff the head and they have good head position they're driving you backwards now you're hopping on one leg they're controlling this leg yeah all right i can't stuff his head and sprawl on them what i do throw on an overhook and a whizzer the color was right yeah and then

try to separate the hands grab a wrist okay what do you do from there? You throw your leg to the outside and try to separate the legs, but instead, you know what? Forget it. I'm just going to try to throw this person. Whether it's Sumigayashi or Uchimana, right? Yeah. Or Osoto.

I actually usually do Osoto, Haragoshi. Yeah, Haragoshi from there too. Yeah, and you see it all the time. Nogi worlds just happen in Jujutsu and a lot of guys are using this kind of thing. Yeah. You know? So it's not like generally recommended

to just immediately go for late-stage defenses for the big win, big throw. Because that's how you find yourself in trouble. You have to know the beginning stages, the basics, the fundamentals of defense. Best practices, stuff, and then adding to it. In training, it doesn't matter if you get taken down. So let them get that leg.

Let them dive in on that leg, climb up the body, and then try to throw Uchimata from there. You know? That's how I would kind of approach it. You know, there's different positions. Like I said, that was specifically receiving a leg grab, single leg,

and then going for throws and forcing that position. Forcing a front headlock and trying to do Judo from there. Or just straight up going upper body. Right? And then Judo, there's grip fighting, but wrestling, there's hand fighting.

Yeah. So getting in good positions with your head, inside position with your arms, you know, bringing the person upright, getting your legs close and then trying to attack

their feet with your feet. Right? And that's a whole other skill in itself because the distance is completely different. Mm. The action happens almost chest to chest

in nogi judo. Yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. So if you're used to doing judo from out here, you're going to doing judo from out here you're gonna have a very difficult time

that's actually me because I I don't lock up in judo yeah that's not my style so it's it's very hard

to get used to that yeah but you get an over-under guy in russian russian judo guy who goes chest to chest all the time

with a gi belt you know whatever it is and then you put him in a wrestling context they're gonna be good there yeah I see you know fishing for double unders and going kosorog, and then you put them in a wrestling context, they're going to be good there. Yeah, I see.

Fishing for double-unders and going kosorigake and then taking the person down, they're so used to that in judo. So stylistically, different styles for judo carry over better in no-gi judo. And that's why no-gi judo is becoming a thing because stylistically, the average American wrestling style doesn't translate

over well to nogi grappling oh yeah generally generally I'm talking compared

to like a Russian style right right if they do more they lock up more because I think American style is more

like shooting heavy right yeah and even if you look at like freestyle wrestling right in Russian

when they get the front headlock cinched and then they have control they get the shooting heavy, right? Yeah. And even if you look at freestyle wrestling, right? In Russian, when they get their front headlock cinched and then they have control, they get to throw from there. They just crank it and then throw and gain back exposure. Americans usually

don't really throw even at a landing. You don't really get points for that. They just throw. If you land on top, of course. But they're just trying

to look for front headlock, bang! Rip it and then the guy's neck gets cranked and then gets thrown. So they're used to fighting the hands and not letting them They're just trying to look for front headlock, bang, rip it, and then the guy's neck gets cranked and then gets thrown, right? So they're used to, like, you know, fighting the hands and not letting the hands connect around their neck and et cetera, et cetera. I mean, collegiate wrestling too.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. But so it translates over better, I think. So then you can make a case that, oh, you can go take a judo class but just try to do more of that Eastern European style or Georgian style or something. You can make that argument, definitely.

But it's like when you go to a judo gym for the first time, what is the likelihood that your coach is going to know Georgian A, Georgian B, over, under, hip-to-hip position, dogfight position? What's the likelihood of that? It's almost zero you can go to KBI yeah but even us we don't really know that much how many of the guys fight like that oh that's true that's I fight very different I fight on

the outside with a lot of the times hand positioning grip and stuff so when I do get chest to chest I don't love being in there right right right you know so that's it so then I mean it's a little hard to really learn that right now because it's the infrastructure is not there the knowledge hasn't disseminated far enough yet no and there's pioneers in the game you know i know this kid austin right and he's that boy medicine on instagram and he has a lot of footage of him just doing judo in an Ogi setting

and he's developing new ideas right so a lot of the times you need to you know lapel sleeve but he does

a lot of throws where he loads the person on the hip with just an overhook that's crazy to me like I feel like yeah but it works

and when you watch him you're like oh I see what he's trying to do here. You know what I mean? So Austin's definitely sort of a pioneer in that sense. And I think he's, you know, leaning into making content now. So guys, if you could check him out, follow him. And then also J-Flo, who was a Division I wrestler slash judo black belt Olympic level guy slash, you know, high level Brazilianian jiu-jitsu athlete he's a black belt now

coaches uh keenan and all those guys out in california he knows he has three disciplines under his belt like high level right right he just broke his foot by the way oh shoot doing what what do you think oh no get you know grappling grappling yeah hope he heals up quick uh yeah but yeah so there are people in the game that are in the know and it requires those guys to kind of really put it together in a systemized way you know and the old adage of like all right i'm gonna take what i know in judo and then just try to swim it over to yeah and you know the stuff that makes logical sense all right collar sleeve collar tie and wrist nope doesn't work you know what i mean yeah and so those guys who are in their everyday grappling those guys are little by little figuring

out and then once they're in the position to really figure it out really figure it out and then they could teach it and replicate it amongst all their students that's now when you have a good you know systemized nogi judo thing know, and it's already being sold. People are sort of prematurely, I think, releasing some of these, you know, no-gi judo videos and such

and, you know, I'm partially one of those guys because it's really not my expertise expertise. Yeah. You know, compared to what I know in just lock-up,

regular-ass judo versus what I know in no-gi judo, they really know what works at the highest levels not really you know it's yes and no it's so new that i think it's one of those things that you know there will be a lot of trial and errors and yeah people have to figure it out and i think

it seems like so a lot of times when a new discipline emerges, there has to be like a competitive component to it to drive the progress forward, right? Yes, yeah. And it seems like nogi grappling is driving that. That's like where these people will showcase what they've developed, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Because gi jiu-jitsu Yeah. is not as exciting as nogi jiu-jitsu from a spectator standpoint because nogi jiu-jitsu has Yeah. It's not as exciting as no Gi Jiu-Jitsu from a spectator standpoint because no Gi Jiu-Jitsu has a lot more action and movement because you can't get

slowed down by the Gi. Yeah. Right? So you see a lot more scrambles and this and that but when you're doing Gi someone locks you up and lasso and spider

you're just sitting there you can get caught in the spider guard or half guard and there's a lot of friction you know? And that's why Judo is so popular because big action right

so if they are able to incorporate judo yeah into the nogi setting which already has spectators now yeah and a lot of people watch it because of the action and now you add amplitude to it yeah right man that really is what they need you know so people want right and it's more so than the jujitsu landscape now it's like people want to be on instagram people want the highlight reel for reach and eyeballs and they want to be spectator friendly you know no one wants to watch like a slow coyote guard half guard you know guy that's just like gets one sweep and wins no one wants to see that guy you know and because these guys now make a living on doing these super fights and selling these videos and dvds they want eyeballs and the way they're going to do that is by foot sweeping someone onto their head or launching someone into that into outer

space you know what i mean so i can definitely 100 see the appeal of nogi judo you know so people are always asking me for this but it's like i'm not really there yet to say that i'm a leading expert on that you know although no one better than me really i just i mean right you you have all the base knowledge for it yeah yeah definitely but you know i haven't really sat down and really given a thought you know like right now i'm still trying to learn gi jiu-jitsu that's where a majority of my thoughts are going to like i just came back from jiu-jitsu right now yeah what did you work on baron bolo no what did i work on today uh yeah i did looking a lot of stuff today good yeah you're learning all those like intricate like guard stuff right

now right yeah yeah intricate guard stuff i pull guard and i kind of today i was doing everything different with everybody hey that's another thing we talked about you know yeah sometimes it's like thematic yeah you know i have guys who are you know high level black belts in there that i do things that have certain goals you know what i mean yeah and then i have like lower light light weight lighter belts who i try to work sort of on my bottom game and then retention and et cetera et cetera you know so that's a that's an approach you could take with nogi judo too you know and in practice yeah it was a black belt today that my whole goal was kind of keeping him in butterfly guard.

Oh, interesting. Just trying to keep him there the whole, not the whole time, but trying to sweep him and then trying to look for Yurika Tame. So I was working

on a very specific subset of the game with him and then, you know, because he has a, he's a little bit shorter than I am and stuff like that and then I want to,

yeah, everybody, I have like everybody, today wasn't like a thematic thing. I had like something for every single person. I probably to, yeah, everybody, I have like everybody, today wasn't like a thematic thing. I had like something for every single person. I probably did eight rolls, nine rolls. Nice. Oh, that's fun.

Yeah, I'm going to do this. I'm going to go judo tonight and probably work out with Gianni. Yeah. Yeah, and some of these guys that I have stuff that I want to work on with them. Dang. They're all like person dependent right now. I'm not, I'm not a theme that I'm working on,

you know? I see. I see. Well, going back to Nogi Judo. So do you think, I'm just curious on how this will impact other arts. Like,

so I'm, for sure Nogi Judo is gonna, uh, you know, push Nogi grappling forward. Right. Uh, you know, push no-gi grappling forward, right? But I wonder how no-gi judo is gonna

impact judo. Or do you think it'll increase the popularity of judo? Like just pure judo in the States? Or you think they're too different? I think judo definitely might increase. Right?

And I see a lot of my, I don't want to say my direct impact, but a lot of Jujitsu guys now really going for Judo stuff. Yeah.

Obviously, I teach a class at Essential Jujitsu. It's a huge Jujitsu school. And there's a lot of guys who are Jujitsu guys coming to my dojo now to learn Judo from me.

Yeah. You know? And I think a lot of average dojos who are Judo purists have BJJ guests now. You know? Yeah, I've seen that a lot of average dojos who are judo purists have BJJ guests now. You know? Yeah, I've seen that a lot.

Yes. So I think maybe eventually as people start teaching this stuff and get better at it and as I produce more free content and paid content that showcases the Nogi stuff that I start figuring out little by little. Yeah. Right? And it's replicable and people are able to learn from it on the video and then do it in their gym they may start adding nogi judo classes in their gym yeah yeah and that could be a pretty big draw because there's things about nogi that are very appealing you know like laundry it is i'm not kidding man like dude like It's not as heavy You know Dude Going

Alright I gotta go to the gym today Then I'm gonna go to Jiu Jitsu And I have to pack a gi And my laptop Because I have to go to work afterwards And this and that And then

Extra gym clothes The bag is filled It's obnoxiously heavy It gets so heavy After you do Jiu Jitsu Yeah It's sweaty It's the worst right

But No gi Booty shorts And a rash guard. How much does that weigh? Two pounds? Not even. No, no. Yeah.

And then you put it in a big Ziploc bag after you're done, or even a shopping bag, and you throw it in your bag, you're good. Yeah, yeah. Right? So like, you know, advantages like that. You know what I mean? Right, right, right. Yeah, that's one. I mean right right right yeah

that's one I mean there's disadvantages too nogi nogi is disgusting yeah it's disgusting it's more contact like it's

you can't it has to be there's so much skin to skin contact yeah and there's so much transfer of bacteria and diseases

yeah you know do you remember I wrestled in college. Yeah. And every year, somebody would have impetigo and give it to everybody

on the team and the guys would give it to their girlfriends and it was just disgusting. Disgusting. Yeah, I know. Ringworm. Ringworm.

I got ringworm in high school too. Yeah. It's gross. And then, you know, you get the ringworm in your hair and then you lose hair in that little spot. I've never gotten that to that point. Yeah, it just doesn't look good. You know it's disgusting yeah, I

See I mean it all drawbacks there, but it's interesting. I'm not curious how this will play out I mean it is already amazing that BJJ people already like using judo technique names like Uchimata And what like I don't even know what that is. So, Deashi Barai. Yeah, people are doing that. I mean, that's crazy to me, actually. And I'm going to give these guys a bone right now. You know, the slide-by from Kalatai into the Deashi as they're stepping through.

It's a huge one. Everyone's doing it. Everyone's doing it. Yeah, I saw a lot of videos doing that. That's Circle Deashi. Yeah. But this is the thing. Judo, you go Circle Deashi, it doesn't work.'s circle de ashi. Yeah. But this is the thing. Judo,

you go circle de ashi, it doesn't work, you blast into osoro. Yeah. There is no follow-up yet. It's one move that everyone's doing. Actually, two moves.

A slide-by and a foot sweep. Slide-by, foot sweep, slide-by, foot sweep. People spamming this, right? Yeah. But there's no follow-up. What about the main defenses

after that? What is the next move that comes after that? How do you gain position and translate that into another thing? Because that's just where it is. It's in its infant stages. Yeah, it's pretty new. That's why it doesn't have the depth that Judo has, I guess.

Slip in the head, not letting them kata. When they kata, slide by deashi, and it doesn't work, you go no soto. Close line no soto or something. Or as the deashi doesn't work you go on osoto yeah you know clothesline osoto or something or as their the deashi doesn't work you shoot another double you know things like this another thing is

not system yet does it a lot of times but still like in the uge grapple you can still just sit you know

so like do you really need to like they're not really like in judo people are doing everything they can not to get taken down or thrown so you need all these follow-ups but yeah in no-gi grappling that's what I felt like I was like when I was doing a

little bit of no-gi grappling last past years I that's what I noticed I try to do other things but they will just sit so yeah I mean yeah how many of those guys wrestle up as opposed to trying to sweep the person i guess i think that at that point wrestling up wasn't as popular but now maybe now it's wrestling up the thing yeah you know so you have a guard player you want to throw them you're fighting good hand positions out they stick guard yeah and you kind of keep keeping them back like doing your thing trying to control the legs. And they wrestle up into your legs immediately. Yeah.

Right? You can grab the wrist and go sumi. Yeah. That's a judo thing. Right? Being good in there and then pushing the knee out and then trying to, you know, doing like a butterfly guard as they're coming up. Or like, you know, Uchimata as you hike the arm high into your armpit. Like that's a position to be an expert at.

Right. Whenever they wrestle up up i have something big waiting for them you know they're gonna get thrown on their head right and that's something that you could focus on that's very specific that portion is i think no no judo i see well i mean it's not yet but we have to make it yeah so it's like wrestling up taking defensively you know the leg grab defensive system. Yeah. Throwing it from there.

Front headlock and then forcing upper body stuff. Right, right. You know, and these things kind of like go in a flow, right? Shooting, climbing up the body, going for it. Yeah. Person shoots it on the leg. You lock him up, pull him up the body and go for it. Right?

Nice, nice. Now, that's nogi judo. That's not freestyle wrestling. Yeah. Because you also... That doesn't happen, really. Yeah. And you also have to take into account chokes yeah and then flying armbars etc etc you know and obviously it integrates with leg entanglement stuff and so that is much more specific than just regular freestyle wrestling or collegiate wrestling that's much more adapted

for the nogi grappling landscape yeah and that's what nogi judo is so before i would have said nogi judo is freestyle wrestling now no longer we are evolving i know it's pretty cool it's pretty cool to see i mean it's an exciting time in that area yeah definitely yeah well do you have any like um so you mentioned like other like dogi judo people that people can follow like obviously you mentioned i mean jintaro you know and yeah justin flores and then uh what was the other guy's name uh the austin cook austin cook yeah pretty good anyone else that you know i'm just curious yeah i mean everyone's sort of doing nogi judo these days you know like it's all the all the high level dogi grappling guys yeah yeah they're doing

a lot of it yeah they're doing harai right yeah it's crazy that they're yeah they're like yeah it's a i'll say i mean we kind of talked about it is different it is a different harai goshi that you see in judo it looks honestly to me a little awkward yeah the way you do it but i can see why they had to do it that way yeah i'll tell you this man like uh i see this a lot in mma the overhook haraigoshi yeah they do it and then they don't even grab the other one it looks a little funky it's like it's not pretty no my judo pure judo yeah but it works why wouldn't it work in nogi grappling it will and you know what there's an mma guy nick newell

he has one arm you know him no he fought justin gaethje back in the day he's legit and he goes hey is this the judo throw what is this called in judo and then he showed me and i was like oh it's oh okay right so now some of this stuff is making even in mma right guys who are pulling guys off the cage and going for inside trips and ochi and things like that and then when they're in the body lock position they go over hook harai like they are mentioning oh this is a judo throw etc etc that's where the origins are you know i mean origins always go back to like Greco-Roman wrestling times in the BC 2000s but like the judo's kind of the throwing sport

so Nogi Judo has a place in MMA is it a huge percentage of MMA? No, it's not because you gotta learn how to shoot single legs double legs etc etc you gotta learn how to punch and a lot of the groundwork stuff that you see

in BJJ, a lot of that stuff is useless. There's no spider guard. There's no lasso. You don't go deep half. You know what I mean? So all these things it's a much more limited game. When you look at it that way, Nogi Judo definitely has a place in MMA. Especially against the cage when they're

upright. When they're up against the cage you can't swallow the legs back. It's much easier to force this upper body tie yeah and then from there it's all judo yeah but it's not pure judo it's not it's really different and just because you're good at regular judo doesn't mean you're gonna be able to good and do that nogi judo which is a whole new thing i mean i, I'm the prime example. I mean, I can kind of do it, but I'm not the best. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Cool. All right. Well, this was very interesting. It's like a new field. So a lot of, a lot of new ideas should come.

So yeah, guys, like start thinking about it and then, yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for listening guys. And we'll see you guys in the next episode.