The Shintaro Higashi Show - Reverse Seoinage ban

Episode Date: January 10, 2022

The IJF has announced a new rule set for the upcoming Olympic cycle, and it contains the controversial ban on reverse seoinage, also known as Korean seoinage. Shintaro and Peter sit down to talk about the ban and controversy surrounding it. What do you think about the ban? Will it help the future of Judo, or will it hinder its development? Please support us on Patreon if you can: https://www.patreon.com/shintaro_higashi_show. Any amount helps!

Hello, welcome back to the Shintaro Higashi Show with Peter Yu. Today we're going to talk about Korean Sanagi or the ban of it. IJF has a new rule banning Korean or reverse Sanagi. We should probably say reverse Sanagi. Because yeah, it's not just Korean anymore. It's known as Korean Sanagi. But before we move on, we want to plug our Patreon. That's right.

Please click on the link, follow us, support us, like us like this video all that stuff it pays for things like this New microphone if you guys are just listening I bought a new nice little thing that comes down So I look like a legitimate person now not just some person right, but I look like a legitimate pocket I'm podcast thing you watch they have that mic stand that comes down right yeah floating that's how you know a podcast is legit I still have this on the table thing so maybe I'll maybe maybe maybe things that I poured yeah maybe with your support maybe I could get that fancy that's right Mike holder yeah yep and sorry guys last week we didn't have an episode because Peter had to get the corona.

I know. Yeah, with the whole family got it, it seems like it's going rampant. So please stay safe out there. I'm better, you know. Good. And we're going to... You look better. Yeah.

How much Omicron is floating around in your apartment right now? I have no idea. Probably not the most. Hopefully not too much. Yeah, don't come here yet. Yeah, don't go there. Anyway, so yeah, let's get back to the Reverse Seiyunage band. Reverse Seiyunage band, yeah.

Before we talk about the ban let's just uh for those for for those who don't know what the reverse seienage is what is it so seienage is a throw where you turn and load the person onto your back you could do it with one arm you could do it two hands reverse seienage commonly done with one hand right and you feed that collar so it's a collar versus collar grip and you turn into the other person's elbow from the outside which is very dangerous i guess and then you wrench it turn and then you throw toward the backside so it's a really cool move uh it's hard to explain so if you've never seen it before why don't you just YouTube reverse Seonagi?

Yeah. And you'll definitely see it, and you'll say, wow, that's a really cool throw. Right. And you can also search for Korean Seonagi. Yes. A lot of Koreans started doing it and perfected it, like Choi Minho, the gold medalist. He was pro at it.

Ahn Changrim does it a lot, too. Yeah. A lot of the Korean legends are very, very good at it. And you can develop a really interesting system. You can do Ippon Seinagi or Korean Seinagi off the same grip with the lapel. So it's like you go inside, outside, inside, outside, and you can turn. And it's a devastating thing. And it was a big part of Judo, and the online community is very, very upset with this.

Right. So why was it banned? What's the deal with this? So we can only really speculate, right? Because I didn't call up IJF and say, why did you guys do it? And then them telling me, here are the bullet points why. But you could only speculate. And if you look up reverse seinage on YouTube, you'll see amazing examples of this throw being done successfully.

But what I heard, like I said, this is speculation, was that it's always IJF's number one theme to ban negative judo. Judo that is negative. Things that don't go towards actually throwing they want to make it as spectator friendly as possible right so when you do a drop senagi and you know you just spam attacks and you just drop to the floor the person is like oh you know you kind of escape a bad position you get penalized for doing false attacks right right false attacks is dropping it's like ah pretending like you're going for something not really attacking that's negative judo so with korean senagi you could

still spam it right right and i guess it's even easier because you only need a lapel grip yes exactly yeah and the thing is because of the position the arm is put in and because you have to sort of defend it you kind of defend it it in a way where it looks like you're actually defending even though the attack is pretty bad because you kind of change directions last second. So if you're sort of a stalling, sort of fake attack sort of a person where you're just kind of like looking to burn time, it's like the perfect move for that. And you can't really just give it a penalty for false attack because the person is actually resisting yeah cuz it's so it's pretty effective you know it's effective yeah cause issue yeah yes so for every successful throw that you see out there someone getting

bombed with Korean saying Iagi reverse senagi there's a lot of spamming of it going on as well i see i yeah so that that's part one i think that's my speculative thing and it always goes into the theme of negative they want to promote positive judo positive judo is like going towards a takedown always doing i guess the right thing yeah right attacking judo. Because think about any combat sport or any martial art ever. If the other person doesn't engage, it doesn't make any sense, right? The sport just doesn't happen.

Even if you look at fighting. Two people are going to fight. One person doesn't want to fight and they run away. Now you don't have a fight. It's like, what about the double leg takedown? What about the ground? There's none of that because the other person's running away if that person's faster than the other person that person's gone right then it's a track track meet yeah then it's a track meet it's something completely different so you need the rules to force the players to come together

and of course this is sort of on a spectrum thing right with judo you need to have engagement try to penalize negative judo because the rules and the nuances make it in a way right that's why they ban the grip fighting thing if i could just constantly just strip the gi strip the belt strip the hands and the person can't get a hold of you it's you don't have any judo right right so it falls in within the theme. And I think that's partially one. That's one factor of it. Kind of speculative.

It's not the official position. That's my guess. That's one of my major guesses. Right. You can spam it. While it looks like the other person is resisting. So it does seem like a qualified attack. The second portion is the control factor of it.

If you pick someone up with Ogoshi, you have them off the ground, they're fluttering their legs, and then you can just bomb them straight to the ground. A lot of times when you go into Korean Senagi, you sort of feel the opponent's resistance and then you spin and adjust quickly in the direction the person's resisting and then you just kind of like tip them over right sometimes they guess that it's coming and they try to sprawl down and then they drop their knees and take him over that shoulder right right so once they're going through that movement it doesn't seem like there's a lot of control on how hard this person can get put down. Like if I was throwing a beginner with Osoto, I could decide to put him on his head. I could decide to put him on his shoulder. I could decide to put his feet down to the ground first.

I could even decelerate him and put him down like I was putting down a baby. And that's not like a testament of how good I am, but it's just a person who knows Judo, how much they can control their opponent. When you're doing Korean Seinagi on a beginner and you go hard, there's no controlling how hard he lands or the way he lands. That's another factor.

I think the control issue is another big one that played a part in banning this technique. You know, we talked about this to the ijf you know especially the current president is big on like the using the data yes statistics and all that so i want and i think the official positions it apparently caused a lot of injuries at the connect level yep yep yeah so i i'm not sure well and anecdotally i used to do reverse seiyunage korean seiyunage a lot yeah until you told me not to do it on beginners and i kind of like

okay maybe i should just not you know use it anymore but so i it is it does it does make sense to me in that sense. Yeah. But I don't know. I don't know the data. Yeah. The danger to the arm is another factor too, like you just said. Right. There's ways to do it safely, and I teach it in a different way at the dojo.

If you're right versus left and you have lapel, lapel, inside versus outside, there's ways to do it from the inside. There are ways to do it from the outside. Right, right. Right? We know this. If it's linked, if our arms are linked and i connect two hands on that lapel and i turn into that arm of course it's going to put a lot of pressure on your opponent's arm right right all right that

that's so dangerous yeah yeah yeah but if i have one hand on he has no hands on. And as he's feeding that hand into the lapel, before he makes contact with the hand, if I catch it, right, before it makes contact with the arm, I'm not really going against the arm because the arm gets cleared to the inside. You see what I mean? So it's a little bit safer that way. Right, right. Then you throw your hips across. Then you turn. And then in a standing position, you have this sort of two hands on the lapel and the other person's arm is blocked and you block them with the hips and you can dump them right that's a lot

more safer because that reduces the risk of the arm getting caught and then you're slamming your body into the outside of his elbow right so you can teach it in a relatively safe way but it's still pretty dangerous so i don't allow anybody on the brown belt to actually do it oh even the brown belts brown belts do it but you know yeah but now it's like i mean i guess you could kind of do it it's it is dangerous i gotta tell you it is dangerous but you know what isn't dangerous in judo right that's the other argument yeah i making. I mean, I guess I don't really like this argument of the slippery slope, but, you know, what's the line, I guess? I mean, if they're saying like, hey, cadets are getting hurt,

okay, ban it for cadets. Yeah, I read that online too. Like why wouldn't they just ban it for cadets? Kind of like the chokes and arm bars. I heard in France, they don't let... I heard. Don't quote me on this. They don't let under 12 or something do drop Seinagi in competition.

It's illegal. So have different rule sets for different... For instance, even in collegiate wrestling in high school and college, they don't want people suplexing each other for insurance purposes. So now they have this, you don't get rewarded for things like this. In fact, you get penalized. No five-point throws, right? Yeah.

So if you're upright and I go behind you and I suplex you on your back, it's like, yeah, I could get two points for a takedown and back points and counting. But you don't immediately get five points for a takedown and you know back points counting but you don't immediately get five points for a danger thing right that's why they have different rule sets for different categories i think they should have that for judo too they should just make it across the board under 30 they already have this this is the thing people are like oh this is crazy have different rule sets for different age groups it's like wait a minute they already have this under 13 you can't choke under 16 you can't do on ball they already have this. Under 13, you can't choke. Under 16, you can't do omba. They already have this.

Right, right. Let's just add to it. Under 13, you can't do drop senagi. You can't do Korean senagi. Mm-hmm. Do you think... And ban Taniyatoshi forever. Yeah.

That's right. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. So you're not a big fan of it? Of this band? What, the world? Yeah, the new band. You know, man, I got to tell you, I don't want to say agnostic or mixed feelings or central,

but I get exactly where the IJF is coming from. And I think so far they really do have the best interest of judo at heart in terms of like as a global competitive spectator sport, which is what it's trying to be and you know in turn like the more dynamic and more spectator friendly it is the more it's going to help grow the sport and they are doing a good job growing the sport not in the u.s right because u.s is a completely isolated thing we're talking globally judo is you know doing popular amazing amazing things. And I like it that every single one of their rule changes is based on data, supposedly.

Based on data. And has a theme to promote positive judo. And they're worried and thinking about the health of young people coming into the sport. I love that. Because you see a lot of sports, they don't give a shit about the concussion or this or that whatever it is right ijf is really thinking like yo we don't want kids doing korean sanagi breaking their arms or falling off the wrong side uh inadvertently with no control landing on their head getting concussions we don't want that so i completely see where they're coming from

and i support that but i also have mixed feelings about it because korean senagi is such a beautiful technique it's an amazing part of judo and if you use it in conjunction with a lot of your other techniques in a systemized way it's such a nice thing to be able to do right yeah and it's really sad that you know 10 years from now no one's gonna know how to do this technique yeah yeah so i mix about it you know somebody just emailed me today uh hey you have so much judo cloud in the community can you lead this petition start a petition well they already I think they did and they want me to

I did see the link like a change.org petition or something right yeah did you send that to me no no I just saw it on reddit

yeah that person reached out to me yeah it's just I think I think you have a balance at least like you said the IJF is

pretty consistent it doesn't seem like all these rule changes are arbitrary do you think this will will promote positive judo not for the Koreans they'll probably come up with something else yeah they probably come up with something else. You know?

Yeah, they'll come up with something else. Hope so. Right, that's what makes it interesting. Do I think this promotes positive judo? It's tough to say, you know. Because there's ideas, right, that I really like. You know, and it's kind of like in chess. You're not just doing tactics.

But ideas like of having sort of the layout where you want your pieces where. And then this piece should do this and have this idea of what the board should look like before you kind of go in. Right, right. And I'm not a chess expert or anything like that. I'm actually terrible at it. But it's a nice little analogy. I love the idea back in the day where you have no-handed judo, where you're shooting from the outside,

shooting in on the legs, one-handed judo, where you're doing Ippon, Seinagi, Korean, Seinagi leg picks, and then two-handed judo, where you're doing the classical judo. And being able to alternate in between these three positions,

attacking a leg with one hand you're doing one-handed judo one-handed judo as a means to threaten them and then put the second hand out in a dominant position right right right we're losing two verse two oh shoot i'm losing two verse two i'm gonna try to cut the hand off revert back to the one-hand judo don't like it we disengage now there's no handed judo i pretend like i'm going to one-handed judo don't like it we disengage now there's no hand the judo i pretend like i'm going to one hand you're about to post on the hand but i change levels and shoot in on the legs so the interplay between no hand one hand and two hand the judo was very very interesting to me back in the day i love that so when they took out leg grabs obviously there's no no hand the judo because you can't just shoot it on the legs right and i'm not

just going to dive onto the person's upper body right that's just dumb so we lost a big chunk of it and this one-handed judo stuff korean seinagi is a major part of that because when you're thinking about one-handed judo you can't just have one hand on the lapel and just grab a leg anymore right what are the alternatives one-handed judo ipan saying't just have one hand on the lapel and just grab a leg anymore. Right. So what are the alternatives for one-handed judo? Ippon senagi. I'm just talking about lapel grip.

Right, right. Ippon senagi. Because no one's just going to give you a sleeve grip usually. Very rare. Especially the sleeve grip that you want

because we have two sleeves. Mm-hmm. So the one-handed judo sequence is like hand on the collar, pretending like you're going to put is like hand on the collar, pretending like you're going to put the second hand on the advantageous position. Korean Senagi, Ippon Senagi. Korean Senagi, Ippon Senagi. Fake Ippon Senagi, Kouchi Gari.

Snap the person down, Korean Senagi. Fake Korean Senagi, go for Daiashi. Other person trying to put the other hand on, grab it, go sleeve Sode Tsurukomigoshi. Fighting, fighting, two hands on, pull the head down and go Soto right so now we lose that yeah now we lose that not entirely though

right not entirely yeah but if the threat is only Ippon Senagi not Korean Senagi uh huh right

it limits the threats the one handed yeah yeah so when you're doing Judo against a Korean champion now, that was always a threat.

Mm-hmm. Right, right. So if you're looking at classic Japanese Judo, which is almost always two-handed Judo, versus classic Korean, I don't want to say classic Korean, but a lot of Korean players who fight in this way, now the rules really skew into the advantage for the japanese player

who do the two-handed judo right so these people who do one-handed judo have to reinvent themselves yeah that's gonna take a bit yeah it's tough but you know when i used to fight 220 100 kilograms. I'm the shortest guy. I'm 5'9". So I've fought Lucas Kropalik, Anai. I've fought guys 6'5", 6'4". Those guys are really, really tall compared to me. You know Lucas Kropalik, two-time gold medalist? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This guy, I fought him in the tournament. He towered over me.

Yeah. And the strategy was when he goes up top and he outgrips me i could just drop in and shoot him on a leg of course i didn't beat him he you know destroyed me but that's the strategy right when they say okay now you can't grab the legs when he outgrips me what sumi gaeshi what do you do yeah i mean i guess you could doish Chomenai. I just didn't have those techniques back in the day at all. Right. So it took a huge portion of my game out of commission. So I needed to reinvent myself quick.

But this is the thing. Some people are affected more than others. And it's not fair. But what is fair? You know what I mean? Things are just not fair. You know, it's like... Just got to deal with it, I guess.

You have to adapt. You know, you can sit there and complain all you want, but you have to adapt. And in hindsight, as opposed to me just relying on my wrestling for any time I get in a bad position, I could just drop down

and shoot it on a leg. Now I had to develop a Tomonage, a Sumigeishi, a more robust way to bail out of bad situations and ultimately in the long run it changed my judo for the better i i agree with that too because when the because i wrestled before i started judo i would rely heavily on wrestling techniques to bail me out. But then when the leg wrap was taken away, I was forced to actually learn judo as it is,

like the more the variety of throws. I did like that. And I guess this Korean, the ban on the Korean reverse Seonagi maybe may have that kind of impact maybe not as much as a black rap band but

we'll see you know it's a very polarizing idea and a lot of people who are complaining online don't have a Korean Seonagi game in the first place they don't how many people online don't have a Korean Sanagi game in the first place. They don't.

How many people do you know have a Korean Sanagi? I know one guy at my dojo who kind of does it. Hein. Right. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know what? I feel bad for him because he's built a pretty good system of it. Yeah, because he loves that one-handed judo.

Right. But I'll tell you this, man. Every time I'm doing judo against him, I'm afraid that I'm going to blow out the inside of my elbow here when he turns into it. I'm a little bit always afraid. I'm like always conscious. If I punch that hand in, I'm like thinking to myself like, all right, I got to be ready to like let go and then tuck my arm back. Like I have to be ready for that. Right, right.

So it's always on my mind. Now I don't have to have that fear. You might still do it. Which means, what else are you gonna hit me with regular ipon senagi kochi that's his other game right as a kataguruma game so it's like in kataguruma game he usually has to set it up with a certain grips right so i can see that come a lot of people can see that coming so now all i gotta watch out for is ipon senai coaching ipon senai coaching right two hand versus two hands like i outweigh him by a lot so it's like you know yeah i have to i could rely on my weight and size and things like this for us so that really makes it easier for me to work out with him. Right. Until he has to come up with a new system for himself to counteract that.

But I feel safer. Yeah. I see. It's pros and cons. So on that note, how would you approach this at your dojo? Would you still teach it would you would you just outright ban it at your dojo too what do you think i don't think i will ban it right i think between two black belts between two consenting adults things can potentially happen yeah for instance i let two people shoot it on the legs if they agree to it. Right, right.

And that's a little bit more and more people take an interest in leg grabs. So I would frequently hear in the dojo now when the Rondori portion of the class starts, hey, man, you want to grab legs? Yes, yes. Now they're like shooting in on the legs, you know. And then I'll usually preface that with like a little bit of a side note like hey asterisk hey you outweigh him by 30 pounds don't sprawl on him okay try to avoid just sprawl on splashing it down yeah hey you want to grab legs like no no no

you outweigh him by 60 pounds like you're not shooting underneath him and then let's not do that you go with someone a little bit closer in weight who wants to do it that's right right asterisk good so something like two black belts say hey can we do korean cnag you know i'm going to be okay with it k Korean Sayanagi, okay. Tanya Toshi, okay. I'm going to be okay with it. But it does come with a little bit of a... What's the word? Not caveat, but like, I don't want two black belts agreeing to do... I mean, they don't have to agree to do Tanya Toshi.

They can't. Just use the black belts. But if they agree to that, they agree to this, somebody's beginner's watching it, and they just try... They think that's okay. So I kind of have to

be clear with the messaging every class that this i will allow it yeah you versus he in go crazy do what you want yeah wow yeah so pros and cons i mean it's uh it's a measure of pros i mean we're not a total we're not totally in favor of it but also we see the benefits and what the ijf is trying to do and yeah i mean i don't think what i heard what i read is that it wasn't a like a unilateral decision like whenever these changes are made all the national governing bodies and the kodokan are involved also. So a lot of eyes were on it. So you guys like conspiracies? What's a conspiracy theory here?

I don't know, man. Maybe IJF banned it and now Korean team has to advocate for it. And, you know, the Koreans make a sizable donation to the charity of IJF's choosing run by a non-profit that one of the governing directors runs his wife runs right collect the salary interesting interesting right yeah I don't know I don't know happening Korea's been haven't been that good lately. They haven't won... Now they're really going to struggle with this.

Yeah, so maybe it's a shakedown. It's really sad, you know, because it's like when I do watch the Koreans, I like get excited about their style because it's so different and unique. There's no other country in the world that has that kind of distinction in their style across the board and it all started with a couple

of champions I think it's Choi Cho Choi was master at this throw yeah so a lot of videos him teaching this yeah yeah so it's like it started with him and now everybody he's taught yeah about this kind of a system and when all the champions do something all the people who are following also learn that technique. Because what are they going to teach? The stuff that they're good at. So you're going to see sort of this breakdown a little bit. And, you know, we'll see how they adjust.

But, you know, it really is sad. But, you know, it's like a forest fire, you know, in so many ways. Like, you know, the thing, the forest burns down and with it comes new life. Yeah. New things sprout. Yeah. Carbon and, you know, all that nitrogen, I guess. Something like that.

So, yeah, man, I'm very mixed about it still. And I, you know, people are outraged online. And I'm like sitting over here pretty quiet about it. But it's because I haven't really formulated my own opinion about this yet. I can go out there and listen to what everyone is saying. But, and I try not to let those opinions affect me. Other people's opinions. Yeah, because if you're online, it's easy to sort of fall into like everyone's upset about it. Oh, Korean Zanuck is a beautiful throw and, you know, falling into that.

But I'm really trying to see both sides of the picture. And I'm really trying to think five years from now, will this decision even matter? You know? Right. And we're still kind of arguing about leg grabs and grip fighting and a lot of judo people still complain about that right what are the martial implications of this you know fortunately for versa nagi unless two parties are wearing a jacket there's not much uh yeah yeah i mean i guess it is you you can but i wouldn't go for that i mean you yeah it's my

next video t-shirt korean saiyan oh gosh what you gotta do is grab the collar up top here like right by the shirt yeah grab the bottom of their shirt scrunch it up and then make a handle and then you korean say you wait for the other person to bring their arm through. It's like, yo, go right here. Grab my shirt too. And once they do, you roll it. Yeah. It's my next video. You did teach that scrunched up t-shirt grip. Yeah.

During the pandemic, I did like, all right, I got to make some videos to do something. So I was like, guys, check it out. T-shirt judo with me and baby mama. Yeah. I think that was... It wasn't very popular. It's like I just saw the viewers. It's like, you know, you get the metrics YouTube. It's like, ah, it's doing great.

And then as soon as I did like 10 t-shirt judo videos, like everyone just stopped watching. They got so sick of it. They were like, enough with this nonsense. Maybe you can write this outrage on the Korean Saenage band. You know, I put up an Instagram video. Well, I didn't. My guy did.

He put up an Instagram video and it got like 30,000 views. About Korean Saenage? It was like Bye Bye Saenage or something. Oh, right. Very on topic. Very on topic. We should talk a little bit more about all the other world changes but you know when i woke up yeah i saw like ijf new rules and i said to myself oh boy boy and neil

adams comes on like hello judoka all over the globe and i'm like yes let's see what's up and then we love Neal we love Neal and Korean Seonagi I was like what I know that was out of I thought it was kind of out of nowhere

but well it's good it gives everybody in the judo community something to talk about right but I really

I think you know don't be an echo chamber you know and just take in what people are saying online but you really i think you know don't be an echo chamber you know and just take in what people are saying online but you know really think about the implications of right this on someone that has a korean zenagi strategy how it affects them and how to circumvent that and i'm sure people out there aren't thinking about okay what can we replace Korean Seonagi with something similar that can fill that gap. People still do Kataguruma without

the legs. Yeah, without the hands. Now it's like you can catch the hands. As long as you don't physically grab it, I think it's fine now. That's sort of a new addition to the rules. So, come up with your own opinion. Think about it. That's what I'm trying to do. That's what I try to do with everything. It's like, you you know just take the boost of this and that and this and that yeah

that's right no i'm kidding i'm kidding um but yeah you gotta come up with your own opinion i see both sides of the thing and you know i still haven't formulated exactly how i feel about it it's very complex yeah complicated we'll see the first tour i guess what how people just i mean i don't think it was i think you might be right that it might not affect it might not have a as big of an impact as the like rap band was yeah i do understand where people are coming from where it's like wow where is judo going like they're banning everything and it becomes sort of this meme slash joke like you know before you know it right it's like uh it's big government small government right right how much control coaches can't coach

only during mate you can't do you can't break grips you can't do, you can't break grips. You can't do this. You can't touch legs. You can't now do Korean Sanagi. And people feel like this big government is controlling every aspect of it. You have to do this. You have to get your vaccine. Whatever. You know what I mean? Yeah.

So I get where people are going in terms of this. Even from the framework of big government, small government, it feels like big government is telling us, hey, you can't do this anymore. You can't do that anymore. Right. It's the government by IJF in this example saying, this is what's good for you. This is what's best for judo.

It's like, how much do you trust the governing body to do what is actually best for judo over the long term how much trust do you have in this and for most people who don't watch ijf sanctioned events as a fan who haven't been on the ijf circuits or know the people who are involved in the organization it's very hard to trust yeah very hard because like what has the ijf done for you right it's like what has governor cuomo done for me you know it's like very similar in concept getting a little bit political now right what how about this the blasi no don't even don't even go i'm just saying right so maybe in that way maybe in america the i think the reaction to these bands is more like stronger is stronger it's very strong yeah because even the i mean there's not much of

a the the national governing body doesn't have as much presence as they do in other countries in the states you know and and the core the core corollary is that the IJF doesn't have much impact on the day-to-day life of the uh local judo dojos in America but I guess in other countries it's more like state-run you know judo is like a olympic sport sponsored by the state you know not a lot of hobbyists maybe yeah so if they want to promote this sort of two-handed positive judo yeah if you took out korean seinagi if you took out certain things at the cadet level and it was across the board not state level but federal level see what i did there across the globe yeah now those kids aren't going to develop those skills therefore when they

get to the next age bracket up they're going to have developed certain types of judo that's good for the end game which is what they want to do so you're shaping it from the ground up little by little right right and i think that's a better idea and that's a much more manageable solution if they said okay no korean senagi under 13 no drop senagi under 13 they made like a rule across the globe i when you get to 15 you could do this you could do that and by the time when you're 20 and above when you get to the senior ijf level in do that and by the time when you're 20 and above when you get to the senior ijf level in the black belt division you can do korean sayanagi you can do this you can do that by the time the people get there other skills would have been much better

well developed you're gonna see a lot less of this stuff right you see what i mean so i think that would have been a much more acceptable not acceptable but like a solution that you know what i mean so i think that would have been a much more acceptable not acceptable but like a solution that you know can be more accepted what is the word i say easier pill to swallow yeah so that that's just my opinion like maybe they should have started it banning it in the cadets korean sanagi what i it's you know you watch baseball you like baseball so i mean i like it i don't they i don't know if there's an outright ban but apparently when uh they teach baseball to young kids the pitchers they don't let them throw curveballs uh because they don't wreck your elbows or shoulders or something like it really so until like high school like even i think until up until high school they don't let kids throw i

don't think there's an outright ban but they just don't teach kids how to throw curveballs but then because it's so effective at the college level but it is allowed when everyone's grown into their body they start throwing curveballs and change-ups and whatever yeah so i'm not saying korean seiyunage has as uh as big of a presence as uh the curveball in the baseball but i maybe they thought you know if you don't if you don't ban it outright if you do this tier ban it's just people still do it and they will see the negative impact of it yeah maybe that that was the rationale maybe we will never know no i i kind of wish they would they would have they had released the statistics

on the injury rate or something yeah they must have it somewhere I mean they made that rule with making a judo 4 minute match instead of a 5 minute match right it started with the women's

and then they trickled down to men's and yeah yeah I just pulled up Korean Seonage on Reddit oh no this is posted five years ago i don't want that i think they they call it reverse seiyunage now reverse seiyunage now banned

okay let's see what this reddit post has to say hey guys judo highlights from youtube here i was wondering oh i think i i read that one yeah know, I probably should have read this before doing this thing. I would have been a little bit more informed of what other people are really thinking. But, you know, I like to kind of wing these things. And, you know, because I want to unbiased view of this stuff. So now he's, now Shintaro is getting other people's real opinions. Injury statistic. I don't see that technique as dangerous.

Okay. You don't see that technique is dangerous. Okay. You don't think it's dangerous. Oh, man. Aggression. One thing is apparently Neil, the messenger, is getting negative comments, like personal attacks. So don't do that.

Let's not do that. Oh, here's a post. Why not just ban that in junior competitions this guy's thinking like me yeah and allow it in international competitions i like that injury data all right i like how this guy's saying maybe i'm just parroting what i've seen around on forums about the injury data okay so at least he's aware of these biases that could potentially affect the way you think right i like how this guy's saying, maybe I'm just parroting what I've seen around on forums about the injury data. Okay, so at least he's aware of these biases that could potentially affect the way you think. I like that. This guy's a thinking man. Poor girl.

Poor girl. Judo Chop Suey Paka has Chuck Jefferson out there doing his thing. I love how active he is on Reddit. I know, he's very active. He has a podcast too. The OG, I think. One of the OGs.

OGs, yeah. I used to watch him compete. He's a little bit older than me. Nice guy too. They ban this, the next throw, the next throw. What happens in the future when we ban everything? See, I don't like that slip or slope argument because...

Change.org unban the reverse senagi judo wow you wanna know I just clicked on it and the picture of it is me doing the throw really that's so funny I didn't click on the link that's so funny

it's three have signed out of yeah that's a frustrated judoka it's three have signed out of yeah that's you're not a frustrated judoka yeah he's frustrated because it's probably part of his game

like I said I don't think it was part of a lot of people's game I don't think so yeah not as much as like a lot of stuff yeah neil's not responsible for any rule changes inclusions exclusions yeah that's very true

yeah just leave neil out neil's such a yeah he's a good dude he's he's done so much for judo yeah yeah i once had a chance to chat with him at an airport after judo time man he's a good dude. He's done so much for judo. Yeah. Yeah. I once had a chance to chat with him at an airport after a judo tournament. He's a nice guy. Didn't you say he remembers every single English-speaking judoka? Or like he remembered all your matches or something? You know, he said something that like blew my mind. It's like he was like, blah, blah, blah.

Hey, how are you? I like just have exchanging pleasantries and he was like remember i really enjoyed that one time he went for that flying armbar and i was like with an eye right yeah i went for a nine and i also went for it against skype joseph wasard was an olympian from the dr and then i went for it and then he remembered it and i was like and then he said something like you don't see a lot of 100 kilo guys going for that one and then it made me feel so good I know

I got on the plane feeling like really good about myself and I was like man what a great guy I know he's attention to detail like

love for the sport is unparalleled yeah man he dedicated his whole life to it you know when you know people like that I hope he's uh sticks around well out there yeah choi ming ho on chang brim oh i mentioned them yeah

there it was their thing you're on reddit all what is your reddit handle should i release that no i'm here all the time i I lurk. I lurk. Yeah. You're a lurker? Yeah. Man, Chuck is all over this forum. Yeah. Well, I think we covered it all.

Your opinion, my opinion. Yeah. Measure in response. Yeah. So let us know how you guys think about the band if you support us on Patreon you can come on our Discord server and then talk to us

directly about this band we'd love to talk to you about this and other stuff anything else we missed? Shintaro? Nope, that's it. Thank you guys for listening as usual I'm sorry we missed Shintaro nope that's it thank you guys for listening as usual I'm sorry we missed a week very sad it's Peter's fault for getting Corona

stay safe out there everyone stay safe out there hope to chat with you guys soon thank you thanks for listening and stay tuned for the next episode