The Skinny Confidential Him & Her Podcast - #78: Raina Penchansky, CEO and Co-Founder of Digital Brand Architects, building a brand in the digital space and building brand

Episode Date: September 5, 2017

On this episode we are joined by Raina Penchansky, CEO and Co-Founder of Digital Brand Architects aka DBA (@therealdba)  DBA was founded in 2010 and specializes as a Top digital influencer agency that helps build talents' online & social authority by developing their brands & partnering them with fashion, beauty, & lifestyle brands.  On this episode we dive into the influencer space and how Raina and DBA has navigated the influencer arena and built a brand helping influencers grow their brands. We also talk about our relationship with DBA/Raina and what it takes to build a business/brand in the digital space.  To connect with DBA click HERE To connect with Lauryn click HERE To connect with Michael click HERE This episode is brought to you by The Skinny Confidential Bombshell Body Guide and Meal plan.  tired of combating inflammation & bloat? Want to feel lighter and sexier? Check out lauryn’s latest 7 day meal plan. In this simple & super effective plan you’ll find: + tsc grocery list with every ingredient you need for the 7 days. + what the f*ck to do when you love carbs guide. + quick and delicious recipes: breakfast, snacks, lunch, dinner and dessert. You will also find 28 weeks worth of fat burning, muscle toning, 27 minute long, effective workouts you can do at home with no equipment. USE PROMO CODE: HIMANDHER at Checkout for 20% Off

The following podcast is a Bostik Media Production. She's a lifestyle blogger extraordinaire. Fantastic. And he's a serial entrepreneur. A very smart cookie. And now Lauren Everts and Michael Bostik are bringing you along for the ride. Get ready for some major realness. Welcome to The Skinny Confidential, him and her.

Aha! Aha! any confidential. Him and her. Raina Panshansky is the co-founder and CEO of Digital Brand Architects, also known as DBA. DBA was founded in 2010 and specializes as a top digital influencer agency that helps build talents, online and social authority by developing their brands and partnering them with fashion, beauty and lifestyle brands. DBA currently represents some of the best content creators online and social authority by developing their brands and partnering them with fashion, beauty, and lifestyle brands. DBA currently represents some of the best content creators in the space, including my lovely wife. Prior to founding DBA, Raina worked on global communications for Saks Fifth Avenue and Coach. I consider her a great friend and mentor because like me,

she enjoys a good wedge salad and a shrimp cocktail. Raina, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Wow, you really put some effort into that. I had to. I had to give her a pal. Wow, that's one of your best intros. And you mentioned our bonding over wedge salads. Oh my god. Sometimes randomly I'll just text you, like I'll go to a restaurant and just text you had a good wedge salad. It could be random, husband's probably like what the hell is this guy doing should we start great wedges of Instagram yeah let's do it reserve it Michael that might exist to be an influencer under you but Michael just wants representation let's be honest I know that's true I'm playing hard to get okay well so okay give us like a background of kind of your influencer influencer journey so I was a coach the head of global

communications for the better part of it almost a decade and while I was there we were just sort of seeing from a brand point of view that our customer was being inspired by different kinds of people the street style it was blog loving it's just an by different kinds of people. It was street style. It was blog loving. It was just an entirely different subset of people that were coming up that were wearing Coach and were inspiring our customer. So we were the first brand. God, this has got to be 11 years ago at this point. We were the first brand to do a blogger collaboration.

We did handbag collaborations with five people. It was Emily Schumann. It was Carla's Closet, the Glamor Eye, What is Reality Anyway? And I'm blanking. Oh, and I'm blanking on the last one. And they each designed their own handbag. And it was like revolutionary at the time. And they all sold out and they did really well. And it was amazing. And we just sort of said to ourselves, this is, you know, it's real. And people care about these people. And they have influence. And a light bulb sort of went off.

And it was about really what are brands going to look like in the future? Like who's going to be, who's the next X, Y, and Z, fill in the blank. Who's the next Martha Stewart? Who's the next,, Y, and Z, fill in the blank. Who's the next Martha Stewart? Who's the next, you know, Gucci, whatever. And that was, that was really the starting point for DBA. We never thought of it as a business. We just thought of it as like, we were sort of inspired by seeing what was happening. And it was meant to be, how do we take these individuals and create brands

from them? So, so how long did you, how long after you did that campaign? Did you leave coach and say, okay, there's an opportunity here? Two years later. What year was that? Truth. We started DBA in 2010. So that's, that's, that's really early for the space. How did you, how did you start DBA? Did you start in New York or did you move out here? DBA was started in New York and Karen, who was my partner,

and I were literally taking power walks along the West Side Highway together. We both lived in the West Village. And it was just like a kernel of an idea. And then I moved to New Orleans for a relationship that ended like most Lifetime lifetime movies do not very well and I remember calling Karen and I said if we're gonna do this I'm gonna

have to do it from LA because like that's truly like the the where talent lives like a talent management really sort of like is born and raised in LA and New York is such an important city from like a brand and a finance point of view and a business point of view but LA is like the home of talent and so she stayed in New York and I came out to LA and that was that was it I mean it was like it was such an organic conversation I know you guys started out of literally your kitchen Karen's kitchen yeah literally so how do you take a brand that you guys started I I want to call it a brand, right? Okay. How do you

take it out of your kitchen and get to where you are now? Like walk us through that because you guys were sitting in the most amazing, incredible, huge office. You've seen it on my Snapchat, on my Insta story. It's white, it's bright. It's every single goal anyone can ever imagine like how do you go from a kitchen to here so the best thing I think that we had going for us is that we put our heads down and like didn't pay attention to what anyone was saying if you have an idea and like you know it's a really good idea you're gonna have a million people who tell you it's a bad idea you're gonna million people tell you can't do it for the first few years of DBA, people literally laughed at us. I remember a man saying to me, oh, my God, you represent bloggers.

Isn't that like saying you herd cats for a living? Literally, someone said that to me. I mean, we had people just essentially laughing in our face and slamming the door. I think that's when you know you're doing something right. Right. So that's, you've got to be able to sort of push past all of that and just have such like a perseverance. I remember Matt, I was watching an interview that Matt Damon did, and he said that the advice that he gives to anyone who wants to act is he says, don't do it.

Because if you can dissuade someone from doing it, then they shouldn't be doing it. Amazing. So you just have to put your head down and just do it and don't pay attention to anything anyone tells you and just sort of like focus on your one mission that you're trying to start trying to accomplish it's very similar to blogging right it is yeah i mean you gotta you've gotta have noise canceling headphones a lot of the time yeah stay in your own lane yeah okay don't try and do too many things we made listen we also made a lot of mistakes you're gonna make so many mistakes um but you have to make sure that you have like a really singular vision because there will be so many times when you're like, Oh my God,

that looks really fun. We maybe we should do that. Or like, that's a really good idea. Or someone is doing that. And like, we could do that better or we should be doing that. That's when you get sidetracked and you make mistakes. I think sometimes we fall guilty to that. You guys are the king and queen of that. You love that. We love, we love to do a lot of things. We are, but you know, I was having a conversation and every time we talk, I seem to have an idea with you, but I was having a conversation with somebody, even though sometimes it looks like I'm all over the place,

really, I don't go out of my area. Like I'm not, like I always make the analogy, like I'm in the digital space, but I'm not going and building boats or building homes or doing real estate. Like I kind of stay with the same. You are building beds for jets. Yeah, that's a little bit, that's a one tangent. But but but the point is is like even though it seems like a lot I try to

keep horse blinders on at least in the space that I'm in yeah and and look as much as I make fun of you guys for having 10 different ideas like on any given day there's also something to be said for like being truly entrepreneurial in that way and like having that spirit but you also have to know when to focus on something and like when to let it go well that's why i have you right so keep me in line it's a nice it takes a village in lauren's relationship i actually i kind of know the story just because i was around for a little bit of it but how did you guys meet how did you find lauren or how did you find Raina or what's the story there? So we were in one of our original office, DBA office, which was an apartment building in Beverly Hills that was like a really Melrose-esque place apartment. And we were like in a courtyard and we had like, we had residential wifi. It was like Time Warner residential wifi. It's like way

early DBA office days. And I remember standing in the kitchen being on a call with you and you had a brand there was a brand that you wanted to launch called dirty birds oh my god that was you guys i still own that domain and i haven't figured out how to go daddy you need to hit me up because i can't cancel that one and i've tried to cancel it like 50 times. Yeah. So, and it was a brand, it was called Dirty Birds. It was an, and it was athleisure or something in that space. Oh my God. That was, that was like 2012. Yeah. And I remember being like, I think you're amazing, but I feel like the name Dirty Bird is like not a great brand name. I wanted to basically take the skinny confidential, use that platform and create a brand called Dirty Bird. Yeah. And it was supposed to be like athleisure. Now you guys, this is like a really good lesson here.

I was trying to get all over the place. I remember you and Lily were like, no. Yeah. No, Lily was not having that name. Well, I'm, thank God. Thank God. And you guys zoned me in before you even started to represent me. Yeah.

You were like, you can't do that. You have to zone in on the Skinny Confidential. That kicked my ass in one second yeah well so after hearing about dirty bird what what made you say okay let's continue and still work with this person right because you're the first interaction is no don't do that but then you still you guys still better it didn't have to do with you if that's the answer no no i was i wasn't honestly at that point i wasn't even involved michael hadn't really come michael didn't come to the picture until like two years later yeah his personality slowly evolved yeah he was still slightly introverted in the early days

it's not that i was introverted it's just that i was focused on the mattresses no that that in the marketing but i was just like my i've said this a bunch of times my it was really really important for me for lauren to have her thing she She's like fully capable. It's her thing. I didn't want to be that guy that's stepping into her space trying to get in. You don't want to be my vlog photographer. At this point though. But you know what's so funny? Michael prefaces every single conversation that he doesn't want to be the guy that steps

in and then is in the meeting the entire time. But was I in the meeting the first two years? No. I don't think we even. No, you eased your way in. You and I didn't meet for till what? Two years later. No, no, no.

We definitely didn't meet until a little bit later.? No, no, no. We definitely didn't meet until a little bit later. Yeah. And then I won your heart and now here we are. That's it. We've been wedge styles ever since. No, we want to know, I guess,

how... Because I know DBA is super picky and I don't know if that's the right word to use, maybe exclusive. You really make sure that your talent... I mean, I had to go through,

I think, six interviews, some in person, some on the phone before you guys considered having me on board. Well, I guess the question is what, like when you guys, let's not take Lauren, anyone, what is that selection process like and what do you look for? I know you guys are big on brand. So it's point of view. So if you said to me today, what is, what, what makes a brand? I would say connection. And cause a brand can be anything today. It's like, it's a table,

it's a person, it's a cat, it's a hotel. It's like the, it's the most overused that an organic or the most overused words in our space and authentic and influencer marketing. And you know, the list goes on, but the truth is brands are about connectivity. It's like, do I relate to this? Do I like it? Am I moved by it? Am I influenced by it? Like, do I want to purchase it?

It's like, you know, check the box number of sort of questions that you ask yourself. But it's about your connection. So first and foremost, when you meet with someone, it's like, do I relate to them? Do I connect to them? Do I understand how their audience relates to them and connects to them? Like, do I understand what their point of view is? Like, what are they relate to them? Do I connect to them? Do I understand how their audience relates to them and connects to them? Like, do I understand what their point of view is? Like, what are they trying to do? Because none of us need anything.

You hear me say this all day long. Like, we don't need to follow another person. We don't need to buy another thing. We don't need any additional pieces of content. And yet we're all consumers and we all are searching for more because it's just our nature and it's what we want. But the question is what? What do you have or what point of view do you bring to the table that's going to differentiate you? And how

are you communicating that? And if you can articulate that, then there's a conversation for us to have. And then we talk about what the steps are and what the other categories are and how do we take that and grow that and build that. But there isn't a point to us or to DBA or to any manager or any agent unless there is a kernel of something there that you can build upon that is really authentic. And I feel like you guys as managers are not just involved for like the deal or the one-off, you know, making money quickly. I know you really, really are a visionary in the sense where you get off on the long-term goal. So when you are, you know, getting someone on board, do you look at if they have longevity or does that not even matter? It does matter, but it's interesting because longevity today is different than it used to be back in the day.

Like if you wanted to grow a band, you would like send them on the road for three years. I mean, no one, just our world doesn't exist in that sort of timeframe anymore. But if you can't, if we can't figure out what five years looks like for you, then it's probably a pass for us because you have to be able to sort of see some sort of a vision for growth and for the future.

And that's not growth, not necessarily even meaning monetary growth, but just brand growth and audience growth and content growth and strategy and, and just where, what's the evolution? What does your evolution look like? Where do you see the evolution for this industry going? Like, I feel like you're such an innovator. Like you saw this, I mean, people that were laughing at you are probably sucking up to you. I can only imagine. Well, and also I think going back, like where, how has it changed since you started? Because obviously nobody's laughing anymore. I don't know how many talents you represent now, but a lot. And cumulatively, I don't know how many millions and millions of engaged followers or audience

they have, but how has that, like, when did you start to see the shift? When did you start to say, okay, this is really going to work and this is taking off? Probably about three years ago, three, four years ago, there was like a real shift. And like when people started talking a little bit more about video and VidCon and YouTube, that was easier for people to understand. Video was a little bit easier because there's a direct relationship between entertainment and video. So that was a little bit of a shift for people once they could kind of wrap their mind around oh so like someone who appears in a YouTube video can be in a movie like that's

when traditional Hollywood started to sort of more take notice and then that was also the time that brands kind of came around as well I think that like most things the pendulum's going to swing I mean right now there's so much out there. I mean, we, between Insta stories and Instagram, Snapchat and Facebook, and you know, who knows what platform will come out in the next year or two, but there's so much. And I think that people are starting to tune out a little bit. So you really have to rise to the top with what it is that you're talking about. And you have to be really pointed and really like dedicated with what that message is. I think that there's a lot of people getting tired of just sort of seeing the same thing over and over again. And something that worked for you

today isn't going to work for you in six months. So it's really important that you think about what it is that people like and what the essence of it that people like, but not doing the exact same thing day in and day out. That's a great advice. Let's talk about plateauing because I've noticed recently, and I talked with Alex a little bit about this, that plateauing is happening. Like it's, people are starting to get sick of looking at everyone's breakfast every morning. How many times can we see it? Yeah. Where do you see people doing it right? And where do you see people doing it right and where do you see people doing it wrong so doing it wrong is doing the same thing over and over every single day so i think people get very caught up in oh that picture of me doing x y z thing or that picture of avocado toast got a lot of likes so i need to make sure i'm replicating that picture a lot or that idea a lot. And these,

a lot of these things live in isolation. So it's like on that moment, that's what worked. You know, for instance, what's going on in Houston right now is so devastating and all anybody sort of wants is to figure out how they can help. So if right now you're posting the exact same content that you posted seven days ago, it feels a lot less relevant than it did seven days ago. So our world is changing, you know, the political climate that we're in is changing. You have to be able to understand what's taking place in the world around you

to understand what people want to see. You cannot be tone deaf. And I think that the biggest problem and sort of the biggest thing that I see people doing wrong is being tone deaf. Well, and I think also playing it safe, right? We're just the same Basic content over now you got to kind of take a stance on something right or you got to kind of take a position or have An opinion on something whether people agree with you or not

Yeah, and I think if you you know, like if you're not providing some kind of I don't say controversy But if some kind of point that's different, something that's not the same conversation over and over, people are going to tune out. Well, because social media isn't necessarily solely for escapism the way it used to be. There was an element of escapism that existed around all of these platforms that just doesn't exist today. I mean, there's too much going on in the world for you to just want to look at pretty pictures all day. You want, there's a balance. You want there to be, all of us love to be all of us love fashion. All of us love beauty. Like I'm screen grabbing masks all day long, but I also want to understand what

someone's like true essence is and like what their views and aspirations and like what they're doing to also advance, you know, the greater good of what's happening in the world. You almost want to know who you're purchasing from as an influencer. Like if you're an influencer, a hockey product, like what are you about? Like you just said, what's your essence? Yeah. So you would say something that people are doing right

is taking a stance and showing that side of their personality and their opinions and putting it on their platform as opposed to just avocado toast. Yeah. And I think that people want to see that. I mean,

I'm not saying that every single person has to be an activist, but it's sort of naive to think that you can get away with just posting the sort of status quo, because that's not what's really happening in the world. And I think people want to understand who it is that they're following, and they're going to start to tune out people who are just being kind of vanilla and middle of the road. Well, that kind of plays into community, how important do you think it it is that bloggers and influencers nowadays cultivate a community and and really pay attention to their audience as opposed to just posting what they want i think community is everything i mean it's what we've all

built platforms on i mean without without you know you love your audience you're saying you're obsessed with your audience you talk about your audience all day long. They're family to you. And I think that that's real. I think people who talk about their audience and just sort of say, oh my God, my fans. I love them. I wouldn't be anywhere without them. That's nonsense.

A lot of that is just bullshit. But your community and talking to them and engaging with them, I mean, there are real relationships and real connectivity that happens from that. And like, you're amazing at that. And I think people who can really cultivate that and understand that, that's what the essence of this entire thing is about. I mean, we can, we see it happening every day. I mean, there are people, the causes that you can draw awareness to, the things that are

taking place. I mean, even in like the smallest way, there's a tremendous amount of positivity that can come from everything that we're all doing. And I think that's what's really important is sort of advancing that. I totally agree. I think with community, too, it's important to acknowledge the community. Sometimes I see bloggers get questions asked or, you know, they'll get a DM in Instagram. I think it's important to set aside a time every single day to actually listen, engage, hear what the audience is saying, or what the readership thinks, and reply to comments.

I think sometimes influencers go the other route where they start to sort of become a celebrity, and there becomes like a film between the readership and the blogger. And in my opinion, I would rather go the other way where I want to be sort of a role model where I can say, you can come to my blog, you can get tips and tricks, and then you can leave and you can apply them

in your own life, in your own way. Yeah. Well, I think that it's interesting because a lot of people who started early on in this space, they had a sort of, you know, early days it was very much about like shiny, pretty, wonderful things and everything was through a very specific filter. So if you built your brand on that and that was what your relationship was with your audience, it can feel challenging to pivot from that because it's scary. And also I think a lot of people assume that everyone in this space is this like extreme extrovert when it's the opposite. It's really interesting. There are so many.

I mean, so many of our clients are really, truly introverts. And there isn't necessarily like second nature to them to want to be an oversharer. It's just that like they've created. That's what they've created because they love creating content and they love sharing. But they're really, really not extroverted. So there's also a little bit of like, uh, you know, a struggle there in terms of like, how much do I share about myself personally? Cause it's like not my nature to actually do that. What do you think these people are going to do?

I was just talking about this on another podcast, how I believe that now you can't just lead with your looks or shiny pretty things you have to have a personality or something to say to back it up and and and how we're gonna weed that out is because videos become so popular now and podcasting is now a new place and Instagram live you can't get on live and fake it more importantly than that it's that people are just they're okay we've seen all the pretty stuff like what is what is your opinion? What do you think? Who are you really? And I think, I mean, I don't, luckily, hopefully we don't suffer too much from being introverts.

No. No. You need to be a little more introverted. No, I can imagine that for a lot of people that are introverts, like very talented people, creators, it's difficult then to say, okay, like there's a lot of pressure for them to come out of their shell now. And how do they compete? What would you say to them? So I think that you have to find your medium. So, you know, I saw it for my entire career when I would deal with, with traditional talent, you know, like movie stars, you think that they're all going to be like

phenomenally charismatic people. And then you walk in the room with them and they're like the biggest duds, but they write books or you know they're it's entirely just about their sort of persona and I think that it's very much you have to figure out what your medium is like what's the best medium for you if you're a super introvert and you don't want to show your personality then insta stories isn't for you and you're going to have to really rely on the written word and that's more challenging because people aren't consuming that sort of content the way they used to and And Insta stories is much more snackable and what everyone loves, but good content rises up no matter what we all find it. You know, it's not,

it's not, um, in any medium, in any medium. And it's not a coincidence when, when those things happen and every, all of us at the same time, I'm like, Oh my God, are you watching X, Y, and Z show? It's amazing. Or did you see this video or this person? It's good content rises up, but you have to find, you have to figure out what your medium is. And if it's not going to be in the form of sort of video or Insta stories,

you've got to work a little bit harder because people are less willing to engage with like the written word, the way they are with video. Speaking of stars or celebrities, you've worked with them in the past let's say like traditional celebrities and now you're managing influencers which i'd say are some like some level of celebrity right i don't know how you big influencers guys you manage all

the top like i feel like you didn't brag enough you manage the top of the top i don't know if i'm allowed to mention any of them but you you manage some huge influencers. We do. We definitely manage some of the biggest influencers in the space. But so when you're... Lauren included. Yeah. When you're speaking to... Michael wants to be. I'm the biggest, right?

No? When you're speaking... In your space. Yeah, in my space, in my head space, to the talent, what is the line between like, are they, do you talk to them as if they're like a celebrity or do you keep them grounded?

Or do you say, or like, how do you manage that? Because I know it's confusing, right? You have so much attention on social media on a daily basis, but then it's not the same as if, I don't know,

maybe it is like Tom Cruise walks down the street or, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know. How do you kind of deal with that? So the digital talent and traditional talent are the same in the sense that it's the same as all of us. Like we all have very specific personalities. And so certain personalities work well with other personalities.

I'm very tough love always. I'm not the warmest and fuzziest. So you're straight to the point. You don't say. But certain talent have different kinds of managers. Like we have managers who are way more hand-holding and there are certain talent that gravitates towards that as with any sort of kind of talent.

I didn't get the hand-holder. What's hand-holding? That's okay though. I don't need the hand-holder. What do you mean like hand-holding? Like they'll just be like softer maybe. Yeah. But you know, listen, you have to know

the greatest way to communicate is to know who you're communicating to because you can't, you have to, you know listen you have to know the the greatest way to communicate is to know who you're communicating to because you can't you have to you know you can't I can talk I can have conversations with you guys that I might not be able to have with other clients because you guys we we have a different way of communicating with each other which is a little bit more sort of like to the point and sometimes brusque and you know that's if we can if we can get it out of line no my managers Denise and and alex i want to shout them out right now i i need someone that provides me structure and that is strong or else i'll override them because i'm all over the place so that's the kind of manager that i feel like you

guys gave me as someone that keeps me on track and in line yeah well and by structure also someone who follows up with you 16 times about 40 times a day over Yeah. That's okay. But some people don't need that. Some people are completely self-sufficient and just want it. You know, they want one email that outlines everything and this is what I need from you or, you know, whatever that looks like. I mean, Gabi came on and said that. Gabi's like that. She's like the best.

Yeah. No, Gabi is like, just tell her something once and that's it. And she's off to the races. I try to, I aspire to be like Gabi. Yeah. Gabi was on this podcast. We'll link her episode in the notes. Early episode.

So I want to know about, let's say we have a lot of bloggers that are just starting out. Give your real raw opinion. Or influencers. Or influencers. Not bloggers or content creators. I want your real advice on someone that's starting out in this industry. Because it can be extremely intimidating. I think you just can't try to be like anyone else. You have to stop looking at someone else's pose or looking at the way someone else takes photos or taking the route of sort of

emulating someone is just not going to get you very far because ultimately what that's going to look like is just the poor man's version of someone else. And I think you have to really take a step back and understand what it is that you're bringing to the table. Like what's different. So do you think that we're going to have an influx of influencers coming into the industry or do you think it's going to be a lot slower because it's saturated? Like what's your opinion there? I think that there will always be people coming into this space in the same way that there's always new actors. There's always musicians like in any creative medium you are there are always people who are who are who are coming in and who are finding different and new ways of doing things or just feel a little bit

fresh or relevant it's never going to go away it's not like all of a sudden one day it's like oh there's not a single confidence there's no more content creators it's just not going to happen well the funny thing is we just went and spoke at a high school down in San Diego, which was a cool experience. But if you ask, like this just didn't exist when we were kids, you ask the audience what they want to do when they're older, so many of them are like, I want to be on YouTube. I want to be a YouTuber. I want to be the, like it's coming.

Like this was just not something that was discussed. There was no point in time when I was in high school or Lauren was in high school where she said, I want to be a YouTuber. Like my dad would smack me upside the head. But it's a real thing. So when you look at the youth, and there's a big majority of them saying,

that's what I'm going to be when I'm older. You can see it's not going to stop. It's only going to get bigger. Yep. Well, and that's what people are consuming. I mean, kids born today aren't talking about, and this might even be too old school for you guys, but must-see TV on NBC, which I grew up with.

Like those references aren't even there. The only reference they have, the only references they have are YouTube and Snapchat and Instagram. Like they're not talking about the old forms of media. So I wanna know where you see this industry in five years. I know it's hard to predict because you just said it's changing every six months. But if you had to really channel and think and really know where it's

going to be in five years, what is like your vision for the space? What is your vision for me? What is Michael's path? I'm just kidding. So in five years, you're going to have probably 20, between sort of 20 to 50 influencers who have the same sort of brand relevancy as like a Martha Stewart did in her heyday. Really? Absolutely. Absolutely. I want to know more about that. Well, I mean, you look at, I look at someone like, you know, Jake Paul, who's not, not our client, but, client, but he has this insane, insane engagement and following. And he's super talented.

And he came up in this space. And that's the kind of person who is going to be, who's got the potential to be the rock. I mean, we see it all day long. We 100% have clients who, when I look at them, I think, okay, they're the next Lily Pulitzer or that's the next Donna Karan or that's any number of different people in different spaces.

And talk to me about product in this space. What do you see people doing wrong, right? Where do you see the product lines going? Because a lot of bloggers are sick of pushing other people's brands and they want to start focusing on pushing their own brand. And they should because they are their own brands. And if you have an audience who you're engaged with and you genuinely love and respect and you're passionate about something, whatever that is, you know, athleisure, dresses,

you know, makeup, whatever that looks like, electronics. Why wouldn't you want to do your own thing and create your own brand? I mean, it's an extension of who you are and your audience. If you're engaging with them the right way and you're communicating with them the right way and what you're doing is really authentic, they're going to want to support that. It makes sense. It's the logical next step. I always say that I feel the Kardashians have done a really good job of engaging their audience and asking their audience, you know, colors. And they obviously content marketed with their lip kit and the contouring kit before they launched.

Do you see a lot of influencers content marketing what they're going to launch before they launch it and making sure that it's the right product? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think that a lot, if you're, if you're, if you're an influencer, and you're launching a product, you have to make sure that that is something that you have organically spoken about for years leading up to this, like, if all of a sudden, one day, someone sends you, oh, you know, or you can make a lot of money, it's an X, it's in this category. And the next day, that's what you're promoting. It's not going to work. People can the strings. No one is being fooled by anything these days. They get it. And I think that there are a lot of people who get really worked up about having to write hashtag ad.

Or there are a lot of brands who don't want clients to have to hashtag ad. But people don't care. They're okay with it. Your audience knows. Like, okay okay that's fine you're allowed to make a living you're allowed to get paid to do this this is what you do this is your job but that's because i make a point to say and this is this is the truth i don't want to promote anything i don't like well i think they're okay with it as long as they know you're not

pushing bs on them like if it's something where it's like hey she really likes that or she really thinks that's going to bring value here then it's's okay. One time I did a partnership that wasn't the right fit and my audience told me immediately and I quickly learned from that. Right. And I think that if and when you are launching your products, you're going to be doing it in an organic way. I shouldn't say if, I should say when.

But, and that's all that matters. I think people are genuinely okay. I mean, listen, everyone knows that Kardashians make a ton of money. I mean, they're minting money with everything they do. But that's okay because they're using it and they love it and they wear it. And no one is begrudging them the fact that they're making money off of these things. Do you think that's unique to them? Because we were kind of having this conversation.

Do you think that's unique to them where it's like people like, okay, they already live so lavishly and they already have such a great life. Like we already know they're going to have money. And then do you think there's some resistance with influencers? Like, wait a minute, like there,

you're not supposed to make that kind of money. Do you think, what do you think on that? Well, listen, I, I have, I've had this conversation before and this is a really interesting conversation

that I love talking about, which is that there, there does seem to be a little bit of this, like, wait a minute, you're monetizing and you're not allowed to do that. It's like the old band selling out, you know what I mean? And I think that some of that comes from this idea that, oh, I could do what you do. It's not like you're not looking at an attorney and saying, oh, I'm, I'm arguing this. You know, you guys are, you're arguing that case in court and like, I could do that. I should be making that much money. You're looking at someone who's like, who seemingly are just posting pictures of themselves or, you know, on a, on a press trip or whatever that is. And

all, and you're thinking, oh, I could do that same thing. Like, that's not fair that they make the money and I, and they make money and I don't. But I think that people have to really understand how much goes into this. There is so much. I mean, you're essentially publishing your own magazine every single day, minus the, you know, hundreds of people that work on the editorial staff of magazines. So it's, I think some of what has to happen is there's got to be a little bit of an education process in terms of like, this isn't just me like sitting at home posting things. Like there's a tremendous amount of work and effort that goes into it. We were talking to Julie from the Influencer Podcast a little bit ago, and we were saying

like, there's still a pretty large level of disrespect when it comes to this space. People, like you said, people think it's easy or it's, there's nothing that goes into it or just, I mean, but if that was the case, everybody would be doing it, right? Right. Well, that's, it's like most things. I mean, you know, you look at some of the greatest artists in the world, it's like, that's just splatter paint. It's like, well, Jackson Pollock was like a visionary.

You know, a lot that's always been the case with creative mediums. And I don't think that's ever going to go away. I just think it's something you have to sort of, you know, you've got to tune out a little bit because this is people's jobs. This is how they make a living. This is how they support their families.

And like, Godspeed, good for them. And a lot of this also, let's be honest, like this is like women. These are women who are out there killing it. And there is definitely a little bit of sort of, you know, backlash to this idea that like women are going out there and like creating an entire industry has been created. That's like led by women. So, you know, I don't think everything's kind of been created by women? I mean, essentially, yeah. I think the men have just been... Well, if we're looking at what... We've just kind of been fooled, right?

Well, let's be honest. The future's in our hands. It's up to us. Hey, I'm fine. I feel like I'm good with the women. I'll let you take my pictures one day if you want. Okay. One thing...

We've talked a lot about like the influencers and the individuals that you work with, but DBA also deals with a lot of brands and works with them in many capacities. What do you see the brands thinking in this space? What mistakes do you see them making? What things do you see them doing that's good? For me as an entrepreneur, as I create business or product lines, what do you see as being a mistake and what do you see as an opportunity? So as all industries evolve, sort of like sub-industries get created. And something that has been happening in the past few years is that there's been this idea of like, okay, how,

if we're a brand, we have to be able to measure ROI. So there is a subset of this business that has been created by a lot of different marketers or agencies, whatever that looks like, who, who have said, I'm going to tell you how you measure ROI. Here's a measurement for ROI. This is what ROI looks like. ROI being return on investment. So I think some of the problem that brands, something that brands do is that they have, they attach this idea of like, okay, I have to put a monetary value to this. If I'm doing this with X, Y, and Z influencer, I have to be able to say, okay, this is what the monetary value was. And that's really, really difficult in a space that sort of like lives and breathes in the air, so to speak. So it's like an Insta story, you have absolutely no idea necessarily. And there's a lot of ways that you can sort of, you know, talk about what

ROI is and engagements. And obviously all those things are really important but at the end of the day some of this is just about the essence it's about like the spirit of something it's about you know not necessarily being able to measure the result in an exact way and I think that brands are getting tripped up on metrics of like decades past and the way that things have been done in the past and trying to apply an old school metric system to an entirely different medium that doesn't it's not an apples to apples comparison well they got all messed up with traditional and then you know the type of advertising idea with digital direct response then they got oh we can measure that and then this new influencer space came out and it's

like you're trying to use all these old metrics to apply to and really like with lauren she's a content creator she's a pr she's a she's an opinion like it lives in space like this podcast for example if we talk about a brand that lives there like it's it's impossible to know how much reach this has right if somebody hears about something and then they go tell their friend and that person's exactly there's no way to measure that but you know you're getting some results i think the brands just have to look at overall revenue right but it's but you can't always necessarily attribute someone to that overall revenue.

And that's the problem, is that a lot of brands are wanting to do this. You know, it used to be back in the day, I grew up as a traditional publicist. It was okay, so you got a half a page in Harper's Bazaar and that was the ad equivalency value of that is X. And then you have a multiplier and you say, oh, but it's an editorial, so it's worth this.

There isn't that today. And I think that brands really get tripped up on that. There was a client that had like $25,000 in ad spend or whatever. And it was a choice between, okay, can you put $25,000 in product gifting to your consumers and get your actual product in hand or $25,000 for a billboard? Like there's an, oh, no, we can't give them the product. We've got to get that billboard. It's just this old mentality of that probably works better than actually getting your physical product in your

consumer's hands. Well, here's what I want to say. When I launch a product, the most important thing for me at first, besides monetizing, besides anything is getting the story out there. But I don't want to tell the story. I want other people to tell the story because they love the product so much. And I think if you approach influencers as a brand that like that, that you're not just looking to quickly monetize, that you're looking for all these influencers to go out and be your soldiers and tell your story in their own way to their audience that they know better than anyone. That's when I think an amazing partnership and synergy happens. That's where the magic happens to me. Yeah.

Because you have all these people telling their audience, again, who they know better than anyone, the story in their own way. Right. Well, to say it's a, we have to stop looking at the influencer space as being separate from other creative mediums. It's the same way you talk about a restaurant you love.

It's the same way you talk about a movie or a television show. I mean, we all are over sharers to some extent like oh I just saw this or are you watching this I mean how many times do you have a conversation throughout like the week where someone's like oh my god you don't watch Game of Thrones or you don't watch this like that it's the same exact thing in our space and there's there's a viralness to that that you that is very difficult to necessarily put a dollar amount or to like capture in a in a finite way and that's what that we are that's what we represent this idea of you know influencer marketing at its core is about awareness and like a vibe and just a sense of things and it's and think about how any single thing that we all know about how how we have found

out about it we found about through twitter through instagram like you're not you're not watching the nightly news and saying like oh i didn't know that like you knew about that six hours earlier because someone on your instagram feed talked about it or showed up in your twitter or something like that's what the essence of this is about it's how we communicate period the end so how do you how if you're a brand go you have to go to where the communication is it still comes down to the best form of advertising which is word of mouth it's been the best forever it's always going to be the best and it's it reminds you know those like those gucci t-shirts that everybody's wearing i remember the first time i saw it i'm like oh my god like these guys are paying like 500 bucks for a t-shirt like really gucci's laughing all the way to the bank really they are like hats off gucci

but all of a sudden you start to see all these different people wearing it influencers and now like you can't get those t-shirts anywhere right i mean look at supreme yeah i mean christ smart yeah okay before you go okay what is your business mantra like what's something that you live by every single day or it could be a personal mantra um so i have a few one is assume positive intent So this is really important because we all communicate over text and over email and like everything gets lost. There's so much nuance. So I try to always assume positive intent because before you know it,

there's like a spiral and you're 10 emails in and there's a lot of exclamation points and like that's a, you know, like a slippery slope. Especially if you write blunt emails, right? Yeah, especially if you, so I think that's a really good sort of like life lesson in general, like assume positive intent. Our DBA mantra is be aware, gain knowledge, have conviction. And basically what that means is like, know what's going on in the world.

Like then learn what you need to learn and then like be resolute in that. And that's kind of how you build a brand. And whether you're a person or, you know, us building a company and a brand, those are the sort of two things that I think are definitely like guiding principles. What's next for DBA and you?

What's the next move? Besides signing a huge contract with Michael Bostic, what is the biggest move you can make? What's the next thing? What's the next thing? We're growing a lot. The team is growing. We're bringing on a lot of new talent

and a lot of managers. There's a lot of growth here. And products, digital brand products, has been growing at a tremendous pace in terms of launching you know, launching clients, brands. We launched, um, Prem with Gabby Fresh and Nicolette Mason, Gabby Gregg and Nicolette Mason.

And, um, that's the, a plus size line that they had been passionate about and pushed for, for close to four years before it finally got off the ground. Yeah. They've been working hard on that. So things like that, watching people like, and really helping people with passion projects, I think is the thing that, that really keeps me going.

Will this go international? Is this international? We are, we have an office in Milan. Oh, I didn't know that. We, we,

um, Asia is like a, uh, my second love like Tokyo and Hong Kong. We talk about it a lot. I mean, they're very specific markets and you have to sort of live there

to really build a business there. So, I don't know. We, you know. We got to go over there and check their wedge salad situation. We'll come visit you.

You guys would love Hong Kong. You've been, you've been, you love Hong Kong. I love Hong Kong. I do love Hong Kong. Michael's a fourth Japanese. I am.

Did you know that? No, I didn't know that. You can't tell? No. We don't need your whole life story. I've got a bunch of stuff. I'm, Did you know that? No, I didn't know that. You can't tell? No. We don't need your whole life story. I've got a bunch of stuff. Where can people find DBA on Instagram?

The real DBA. Alright. Thank you so much for coming on. That was so fun and interesting. I actually learned a lot. And guess what, you guys? I was late and I kept you five minutes after. So, Raina's got to go. We should do this more often. This is fun. I know it's fun, right? It's really fun. We're going to talk more about me. We're going to talk. Michael, you and I'll continue our conversation. Yeah. We're going to continue

the podcast conversation. You're seeing sparks are sparks are flying here. All right. Bye guys. Thank you guys for tuning in this week. As always, we appreciate your attention. We know you have a ton of options when it comes to content. So just the fact that you chose to stop by and listen to us this week means the world to us. If you like the show, please let your friends and family know, the guy down the street, the cat, the dog, whoever. It helps the show grow and keeps us motivated to keep producing content on a weekly basis. If you happen onto iTunes and feel inclined to leave a review, please take a picture and screenshot it and send it to podcasts at the skinny confidential.com. And Lauren will send you a little email with

some tips and tricks. Thank you guys. And we will be you next time.