The Skinny Confidential Him & Her Podcast - Bozoma Saint John On How To Build Unshakable Confidence, Lead with Power & Advocate For Your Worth

Episode Date: March 16, 2026

#952: Join us as we sit down with Bozoma Saint John – businesswoman, entrepreneur, author, marketing powerhouse and executive leader known for blending emotional intelligence, cultural fluency, and bold authenticity. Throughout her career, she's held executive roles across music, tech, fashion, and entertainment, often becoming the first or only woman of color in the room while redefining what modern leadership looks like. In this episode, Bozoma shares powerful insights on confidence, leadership, workplace negotiations, and the importance of showing up authentically. She opens up about climbing the corporate ladder, owning the boardroom, and identifying the personal traits that make you valuable in any environment. Bozoma also gets candid about navigating grief and infertility, and offers practical advice on advocating for yourself, negotiating your salary, and stepping fully into your power.   To Watch the Show click HERE   For Detailed Show Notes visit TheBossticks.com   To connect with Bozoma Saint John click HERE   To connect with Lauryn Bosstick click HERE   To connect with Michael Bosstick click HERE   Read More on The Skinny Confidential HERE   Head to our ShopMy page HERE and LTK page HERE to find all of the products mentioned in each episode.   Get your burning questions featured on the show! Leave the Him & Her Show a voicemail at [phone].   This episode is sponsored by The Skinny Confidential Shop The Skinny Confidential Anniversary Sale at https://shopskinnyconfidential.com.   This episode is sponsored by Squarespace Checkout https://www.squarespace.com/skinny to save 10% off your first purchase of a web or domain using code skinny.   This episode is sponsored by Kion Visit http://getkion.com/skinny for 20% off.    This episode is sponsored by Discover Learn more at https://www.discover.com.   This episode is sponsored by Fatty15 Get an additional 15% off your 90-day subscription Starter Kit by going to http://fatty15.com/SKINNY and using code SKINNY at checkout.    This episode is sponsored by Just Thrive Get your health in check and save 20% on your first order at https://justthrivehealth.com/SKINNY with code SKINNY.   This episode is sponsored by Paleovalley Head to http://paleovalley.com/skinny for 20% off your first purchase.   This episode is sponsored by Bobbie If you want to feed with confidence too, head to http://hibobbie.com. Produced by Dear Media

Welcome to the Bostics, starring Lauren Bostic and Michael Bostick. Together, they are the Bostics. What a great guest to sort of kick off our show with, okay? Welcome Baws St. John to the Bostics. Damn, this woman has got it going on. Let me tell you, I was so lit up in this interview. I was harassing her to come back for part two at the end. Get out your notebook.

You will want to take notes in this one. Baws St. John is a businesswoman. She's an entrepreneur. She's an author. She also is on the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. However, she knows her way around the boardroom. She will blow you away about how to advocate for your worth and teach you how to build unshakable confidence.

This episode inspired me beyond. Boz, welcome to the Bostics. One of the most depressing moments of the pandemic was for me. So we were starting the companies. We were going. And we had a lot of new team members, you know, like when we were working these corporate environments. Yeah.

And we wanted to build a culture. And so we would do the company happy hours where we would all drink on Zoom together. It's too much. Too much. I know. I know. I did that too, by the way. It was awful.

What I realized is like even though you were on a screen talk, someone, you were essentially drinking alone at your desk. Alone. Taylor, are we recording? Yeah. Okay, I want to hop right into it. I have a lot to cover. No, we can leave it in.

Go ahead and leave it in. But I can't, I remember, like, people would be like, oh, here's my rum and Coke and then want to be the crone. And, like, toasting to each other. And I remember I would just hang up the call and make, man, this is depressing. It was awful. I was the CMO of Netflix at that time. And I would have my global town halls and I couldn't see anybody.

It was like, I was just staring at the little green dot on my laptop. And, you know, like, I'm the type of person who needs. other people's energy, you know what I mean? In order to feel like, is my message landing? Like, do people understand what I'm saying? Is it funny? Are you inspired? Do you feel this is serious?

Nothing. What was it like being the CMO of Netflix? That's a huge title. What was it like? Oh, gosh, what was it? I don't know how to answer that. It's like it's a big job. But every job, every CMO job is a big job.

Especially if you're, you know, Fortune 50. I mean, these are big jobs. You've got boards. You've got Wall Street. you know, you've got people to report to. And so it feels like a lot of pressure. I don't know how else to say it. You know, it's like every day, there is no small decision.

What's the pressure between that and housewives? Because I imagine there's some similar or some different. Girl, this is a cakewalk. It's a cakewalk. Yeah. Really? Yeah. The girls trips?

The girls trips? Girl, please. It's a cakewalk. Look, the kind of shark and festive waters I've swum in are, this is nothing in comparison. Like, we have people who are crying because somebody said a harsh word to them. I'm like, if you'd been talked to the way I've been talked to in my career, you would never have made it. I like to watch your reactions for some of the scenes. Yeah.

I'm a huge connoisseur of housewives. Oh. And your reactions kind of like narrate. Yes. Like when someone was called a wimp. I mean, look, I don't have a poker face. And you would think that after having a 25-year career in corporate, I would have more poker face and I just don't. We don't want you to have a poker face.

No, because I just, no, I don't know how. You know what I'm saying? Keep joining me. I feel like I'm just going to react. And you've had such an extensive career, which we want to dive into, is I think there's a ton of benefit for the people listening and watching to just learn more about what you've done. But I imagine being in that environment for so long, you just don't have time for the BS. Oh, right? Like, you're just like cut to the-

cut to the chase, you know? And also, I think part of the challenge that I have with Housewives is that nobody is solution-oriented. Right. Right. You know, they're not, you know, you're not in a disagreement to find the solution. You're a disagreement to just be mad. And I have a hard time with that because obviously, given my experience, it's like, if you don't find a solution, that costs money. So give me an example of a solution that you had where there was a conflict where you could have stepped in. Every damn episode. Are you crazy?

Every time. Every conversation. But wouldn't the episode, if we just followed your salute, wouldn't it be like five minutes? It would. It would be a terrible show. Yeah. You got to let the drama play out. I learned that actually pretty quickly in my first season because there was a situation pretty early on with Sutton when I said that she was weaponizing an experience to basically get at one of the others,

right? And she was offended by my use of the word weaponizing because she was like, I'm not weaponizing anything. So she, you know, came to me at an event, which in, I think, typical housewife fashion, it would have turned into a bigger thing. And she was basically like, I didn't like the weaponizing and I was like, okay. Like, you know what else do you want me to say? Like, okay, you didn't like it. And what do you want me to do about that? You know, and it just, she kind of just turned around and walked away. And it was one of those situations where you're just like, hmm, I guess I needed to play out a little bit more. You know what I mean? I probably need to say something to her. You got to learn the

game. It's definitely a game. It's a formula. I mean, it is a formula because what people want to see is the, and now I know, they want to see the whole resolution, if there is a resolution. We want to see the conflict. They want to see the, like I keep saying it's like my high school math teacher who is like, you take a test. Don't just write the answer down. I want to see your work, right? You got to break down, yeah, the formula so that I know that you know the math. And that's, I believe, the formula that people want to see on the show. They want to see all of the bits that go into the disagreement, into the resolution if there is one,

or the branches that break off because of said resolution. Yeah. No, that is exactly what we want to see. We want to see your processes. We want to see the comments. We want to see the narratives behind each person. Yeah. You had a really, in my opinion,

an amazing first season for a housewife. You're having a good season still right now, too. So is Rachel Zoh. I think she's having a great... I love Rachel. Some people are just... just they elude housewife. Yeah.

And then when you guys, when a person who comes on that doesn't allude that, it can stand out. Like a sore thumb girl. Yeah. Like a bad apple. Like a worm instead apple. Should we keep going? Yeah. So I want to go.

It's just, it's an assent. It's like a charisma. It's an essence to survive. You got to have your style. And I think there's a certain, you know, there's a certain. That's it. Confidence that comes with being in space and saying, okay, you know what? I belong in this group, even if I don't like everybody.

I belong here. And maybe to your point, it is one of the areas where my corporate experience has translated, right? Because you cannot walk into any boardroom thinking you don't belong there. You will fail immediately. You also can't fake it. It's hard to, you got to keep up, Michael. You can't fake the energy either. No, you can't.

It has to be authentic because the audience can smell it. Yes, yes. Yes, it's the same thing. It's like my ability to walk into a room and assess it and either shift it or go along and listen is based on my belief, my core belief that I belong in the room. How much of that is natural and how much of that is learned? Oh, a lot of it is learned. I think a lot of it is learned. How would you teach someone that doesn't know how to walk into a room and feel like they belong?

Well, there's a lot of different elements. One, you know, I do think that this is going to sound corny to say, but we all have a unique talent or unique perspective or something that we can offer. Yep. And many people don't believe that of themselves. That's the first issue, which is like, what is it that you actually bring? So let's say you were at a cocktail party. Take it out of a boardroom. Take it out of being on TV.

You go to a cocktail party and you see a group of people standing there and somebody invites you into the conversation. What are you going to talk about? You know what I'm saying? Like what is your thing that you're contributing? Is it you're from Wichita and that's an interesting thing because you happen to be in L.A. And everybody's an L.A. native. Great. Fantastic.

Talk about that. You know, do you happen to sew like self-taught? Beautiful. Talk about that. I think people always think that your unique characteristic needs to be like some like higher than. and God type of talent, and that's the only thing that gives you value. And so my point is that, like, we all have some value. We all have something that makes you different in a group, and therefore, that's your

contribution. And if you are confident in that and you live honestly in that, you're winning. So you would tell them to come with something interesting that makes them unique. Yes, that's them. That's them. Yeah. What are other, I feel like you're so powerful when you speak. What are other little tangible tips that you can give to our audience to light up a room?

Yes. Okay. So first thing, and this I learned also because my family's originally from Ghana. We lived a lot of places when I was little, but we finally settled in Colorado Springs, Colorado when I was 12. One of the biggest things that, of course, now I can articulate that I couldn't when I was 12 is that I was very othered, right? Because everybody else in the Springs is from the Springs. Even military families who move in and out felt very much connected to that place, right? I was coming from a place that people were like, I'm sorry, where is that?

And do you wear clothes there? And do you eat monkey brains, you know? Why did your family choose Colorado Springs of all places? My dad, you know, Norad is based there. And he's done a lot of like sub-Saharan African conflict politics, you know. So anyway, there was so much that made me other that in order to survive. I had to find the commonality with people, right? So it meant that I had to become a student of pop culture.

I needed to understand the Denver Broncos. I needed to know who was like topping the billboard charts and understand the lyrics and sing the lyrics when it came to when you went to the party. You know what I'm saying? I had to dress the part because I needed to understand the fashion of the time. Slouch socks. You need to be three, not two. You know what I'm saying?

Like you needed, I needed all of the information about pop culture. And it is the way in which we connect now. that allows you to have commonality with people and therefore make friends immediately. So the same happens in the boardroom. You walk in and there's a bunch of people there who may not know you or maybe know you lightly. And the point is that you are trying to find points of connection, even if you're othered. Even if you feel like, oh my gosh, like none of these things are like me, your point is that you're finding a similarity somewhere and it is not going to make you feel like you are a stranger and alien.

because you're finding something that connects you to somebody else. You walk into the boardroom and there's 12 men and you walk in as you. Yeah. Explain that. What is that? What does that look like? Well, I think, I mean, first of all, that has happened my entire career, right? The shark and posted waters.

Yes. It's nothing new. Okay. And often I find that they are more curious about me than I am of them, which means that I've just got to answer. that, right? I've got to feed that curiosity. And so, and most of the time it's like what you would consider superficial things. I'm certainly not dressing like them, right? I'm probably not using references like they use. And so if I make a reference to something in culture that they are not familiar with, then I tried to make it similar to something that they know. Or it's like, you know,

do they have kids? You know, we all like to talk about our children. Yeah. You know, like we just sat, we started talking about our kids or you start telling me about yours. And I'm like, oh, I can identify and I'm nodding at you and empathizing. You can feel my empathy. Yeah.

You know? It's a human experience. Yes. And so we do not come from the same place. We probably could not be more different in our experiences in life and in our anatomy. But yet there's a connection and empathy when you were talking about your six-year-old and her not wanting to go to school because I have a 16-year-old

and I remember those days. And so when I'm looking at you, even without communicating that, you can feel that I have empathy about that situation. And so it's the same thing in every room that you walk into. There's always a human connection.

I think that if you don't want that or you don't expect that, then that's when the walls come up and you can't bring them down. It's essentially what we tried to do on this show for the last decade is like, to your point, we meet so many people

that are so different that us have such different backgrounds, But what you're doing in an interaction like this is you're finding that common thread and then pulling out what the rest of the humans that are listening can experience as well, right? What's the takeaway? It's like we we are interested in talking to people that have different experiences that they can share with people so that those people can enhance their lives or find some commonality or some relief or whatever it may be. And also there's actually big interest in difference too. You know, I mean, especially now. I would quit a long time ago if everyone we talked to was the same as us.

Oh my God. Can you imagine? I mean, and that's what I find distressing about this particular time, you know, especially in the U.S., where there's so much angst about difference where I'm like, but guys, like, it doesn't have to be a bad thing. You know, it's like we would stop just focusing on the fact that like because you're different, you have different points of view, different understanding of the world that somehow we cannot connect or we can't get along. We need you to be the CMO of the country. You know what, girl. You got time? I know, right? Let me see. Let me see my calendar. Let's see if I could, you know, maybe I'd probably be pretty good at it, to be honest. Between housewives and Jimmy.

I mean, squeezing a little, you know, country strategy. Could use a little jush. If someone's listening right now and they want tools to be more confident, and we talked about walking in the room, but just generally more confident. I feel like you elude that on the show and in your past career. Yeah. What would you tell them? Yeah. You know, this ties to what I was just talking about about. like our uniqueness and the things that we bring. Like, there really isn't a room I walk into that I think I can't contribute to. You know, it's like, because there's, there is something. Everybody has something.

Like, you walk into the room and actually, I'll make it like science, okay? Physics. There's matter. We understand matter, like your drink, okay? If you take one molecule out the matter, take one drop out of the matter, the matter changes. You add another drop of something else. into the matter and the matter changes. We are like that.

So you walk into a room, it is matter. You enter the room. It is markedly different because you entered it. Why would you not stand in that? Why would you not be inspired by that? You know, the room was different because you weren't in there. And I believe that fundamentally, and I believe that for everybody. The cast of the Real Housewives Beverly Hills was different before Amanda and Rachel

showed up. Yeah. And it will be different when somebody leaves. Who's leaving? I didn't say that now. Okay? I didn't try to cast it. But the show will be different. I tried to cast it, but you're casting it. I didn't try to say that, but I'm saying, you know, it will be different. Well, don't when somebody's gone. Don't take out you and

Kathy Hilton. Oh, Kathy Hilton is the best. Don't take out you and Kathy Hilton. I love that woman so much. Yeah. Oh, she's so wonderful. You got to sprinkle a little Dorit. You got to. You know, An activated Doreet. You and Doreen. I didn't know, I didn't know Doreet before. I only know the activated version.

She's spicy. Oh, she's super spicy. I love it. She's stepping into her power. I love a spicy woman. I like your friendship with her. It's cute. You guys have a cute friendship.

Yeah. And you know what's so funny about that is that I told her this, so this is nothing new, but, or when she hears it, she won't be like, oh, my God. But I don't know if we would have been friends if we met five years ago. Why? Well, because life was different. You know, she was in different. And I was in a different space.

But now we are at a moment where, like, literally the first moment we met, we were already, like, trauma dumping on each other. You know what I'm saying? Like, it was like, she was like, girl, I'm separated. I'm going through divorce. I was like, girl, my husband died. You know what I mean? It was like, we could connect on loss and a change in life as you knew it.

And so I had immense empathy for the situation she was in, whereas some of the other women couldn't really identify. Why did you decide to open up about something so personal? Was that a conscious decision? No, I think it was an emotional decision. I could feel that she needed it. You know, she needed to know that somebody else had had the rug pulled from under them. When you opened up about your husband, did you get an influx of DMs?

I can imagine people were so supportive. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Oh, my gosh. Yes, so many people. I mean, the thing is that it's not a club anybody wants to. be a part of. You don't want to be a widow. You didn't sign up for that. It's a very strange place to be because there is so much shame attached to it. Why? Which is weird. Well, I think because people feel like, and I don't think it's a new thing. I think it's actually a centuries old behavior that it has been

passed out in time. You know, because back in the day, widows were shunned, you know, where, like, absorbed into the family and like shut away. You're only supposed to wear black for the rest of your life. And so this is a new phenomenon for women to be out, you know? And think about the, I'll put like, imagine if Vanessa Bryant started dating somebody. People would be after her. That's Kobe's widow. You can't touch her. You know, you got to leave her alone. I saw the other day, Twitch, his wife is engaged, I think, and the amount of vitriol that has come her way. Now, I don't know the woman. I don't know what their relationship was like. But all I know is that there's a widow who's found love again. Why would you hate her for that? You know? I had never thought of that.

You're so right. And so there's there's like a shroud that you wear. And so what happened. It's like a primal thing where people, yeah. Yeah. And so it opened up the door when I'm standing tall and being able to express that I'm a widow and I'm still living my life. I still love my life. I still love my I've come a long way now, Lord have mercy. But I've, I'm loving life and I love every day that I'm here. And so, and I don't, I don't need to be ashamed of that. I don't need to hide it. I don't need to cry every day in order to honor my dead husband. You know what I'm saying? That like there's that kind of shame that society puts on you. And so the women in my DMs and some men in my DMs have been amazing in, you know, sort of forming a community of support.

What a beautiful example, too, to set for your daughter. Oh, yeah. To show your daughter, like, it's almost like you rose like a phoenix. Yes. It's such a good example just for your daughter to see you thriving in your life and doing so many different projects and everything that you've got going on. Because what's the, I guess, the alternative and the expectation is what? You shut out and shut down. Yeah, you shut down.

You can't do that. You can't. You can't. You can a whole life ahead of you. Well, I mean, but that is the expectation, you know? Because think about this even, right? Like, after my husband died, four months after he had died, I moved from New York to Los Angeles for a new job, right? Was that cathartic to leave the- Oh, I had to leave New York.

Yeah. I mean, every corner reminded me of him. I was dying there. I had to leave. You can imagine the amount of judgment that I got. Really? People were like, you know, shouldn't you be-strangers or people- strangers, family, everybody has an opinion.

You know, it's like, shouldn't you just? Just sit down for a year. Just heal. Just don't do anything. You're probably going through a mental breakdown. So just calm down. Don't go anywhere. And they don't say it because they hate you.

They're saying it because they love you and they're trying to protect you. I also think it's people projecting what they would do onto you. But, girl, they wouldn't even do it. That's the problem. They're projecting an idea that they have of what the- a storybook. Perfect widows should be. Right. Or the perfect business woman should be. That's why people like have opinions when my breasts are out. Because they're like, you're an executive. You shouldn't have cleavage. Excuse me? I happen to love my tits. Put some titties out. And they're good.

I like when you're getting some good ones. I'm telling you. Girl, girl, girl, I ain't got nothing done to them and they are sitting. Forty-nine years old and they're up here, girl. Put this barrier, Hold on. These are natural. These are natural. And they sit, honey. Gotta watch the YouTube guys. I'm not trying to.

Oh, they're sitting. They sit. I'm trying to just be like this right now. That's what I'm looking at her. This is an A and B conversation right here. Exactly. I'm not talking to you right now. I'm going to talk to her.

Okay. You can appreciate great tits. I mean, the whole time I was looking at him, I was like, wow, those are some beautiful boobs. They're so good, you know? And I like to show them up. Now that we've addressed it, I can get rid of this note card. Just kidding.

Taylor's back there beating his meat. Oh, hilarious. If something can elevate my day and make me feel more aligned, I'm in. And I have been driving with my kids a lot in the cars to pick up, to activities, to the dentist. Our dentist is two hours away, which we'll get to in an episode soon. But when I'm driving, I always stop by Starbucks. And my specific order, because you know I'm going to give it to you, is the new iced lavender cream macha. Oh my God, it's so good. It's like smooth, topped with this subtle lavender cold foam.

It just feels chic, elevated, floral, fresh. And honestly, I feel like it's like spring in a cup. I am so in love with this. I actually text my friend the other day and I was like, you have to try it. It's also so pretty. The best part to me about Starbucks is that you can customize what you want. so I can adjust the sweetness or change the milk to really make it my own. And the sweetness, I like to make very, very light. I like it to feel like refreshing. So it still tastes amazing. It just feels more refined and intentional.

I recommended this drink, too, to some of the girls on our team, and they all loved it. It's perfectly balanced. And I have no notes, and that's rare. You go in Starbucks and you create something that feels completely your own and personalized. And for me, with Starbucks, I make it work for my routine. and I customize my order. You can customize and edit as you please.

That's what I love about Starbucks. So this spring, find your flavor and make Starbucks part of your ritual. And definitely check out the new iced lavender cream macha. Oh my gosh, I'm obsessed. Let's talk about one of our favorite platforms, and that is Wayfair. Spring is here. It's time to do some spring cleaning, and you can refresh your space and make your homework better for you with Wayfair.

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Okay, so what do you want to instill in your daughter? I'm sure you're very intentional about that. Oh, oh my God, girl, in so many ways I've been intentional with her. I can tell you that, like, from the... the moment I became a single mother, which was terrifying to me. And I've been honest about this. I don't mind sharing it here, which is that I was not the one who wanted to start a family. My husband was. You know, and I found it very, very difficult in those early days. I found it almost impossible. Oh, and I was kind of like, I've been thrust into this and now I've got to raise this person.

But I'm ambitious and I want a career and, you know, like I don't want it to slow me down. had people at the office who were advising me that I shouldn't have pictures of my daughter up because people would think that I wasn't committed enough to the job. I mean, it was just like... And how deep into your executive career were you when you had your first kid? I was 32 years old, so I was about a decade in. Okay. So when Peter died, Lale was four. And I was looking at her like, what in the hell am I supposed to do now? Like, how am I supposed to raise this person by myself? Like, this was his idea. Wasn't even my idea. And then on top of it, I felt like it would stop me from being able to do all of the things I want to do because as a single parent,

now you are wholly responsible. If I need to travel for a business trip, how am I going to do that? You know, you were just talking about leaving your daughter in Texas. I'm like, how would I do that? Who would watch her? There was no support. And so I changed my mindset pretty early, like with her, in that I actually told her quite bluntly. I was like, girl, I don't know how to do this. I just, I don't know. And you're going to have to tell me about things you need. She was four.

And I was having this very adult conversation. I mean, we were sitting now, you know? and the ways that I made that into reality were things like opening up my calendar and actually letting her have responsibility in it. So being like, if you need me to be at the school, like, for whatever, you got to tell me. And it's got to be really important because I have to do other things, other places. Like, I wasn't going to be ashamed of my ambition. But I was like, you're going to have to tell me.

And then I will put it on the thing. and I will be there. Okay? But it can't be every day. It can't even be every week. You know, we got to really make choices. And even at four, she felt the respect that I had for her, you know, and that I would respect her enough to respect her wishes.

And now, 12 years later, we still behave that way. I think with children, and maybe this, I don't know if this has been your experience, the more you explain to them, the reason. why things are important, the reason why you need to do things, the more they're, I think, and again, I don't want to tell their parents how to parent, but what I've noticed as a parent myself is when you kind of try to not tell them and like, oh, well, and kind of like she them, then they get upset, but it's uncertain. They get upset, they don't know, and they're so smart, you know, or things like, you know,

when I got into a position where I was making a lot of money and, you know, she can have anything that she wants, I decided to switch up her birthday presence, right? Because I was like, All I could see was like this mountain of gifts that she was getting for me and her aunts and friends and all that. And three months later, they were discarded. And so I was like, you know what, actually? No more birthday presents or birthday parties. And she was like, you know, obviously very upset. But I was like, here's what we're going to do.

You are going to pick a place in the world that you want to go. That will be my gift to you. You will have to present why you want to go there. and it'll have to make sense. You come up with an itinerary, and then my job is to get you there and to do the itinerary. She started doing that when she was about four also. She'll remember that way more than the little...

Oh, yeah. Oh, we've had some adventures. Oh, we've had such a good time. She's so independent. Based on everything you're saying, I can see the foresight of that being a really independent... Very much. Very much. And someone who thinks very clearly and is also intentional.

Like, we don't do things. things just to do them. I mean, obviously, their spontaneity. And, you know, we'd like to get up some days and be like, oh, we're going to go to this thing or do that thing. But also it's like, why do you want that thing or why do you want to go there or why are you friends with that person? What's the best place you guys have gone? When she was 10, she presented that she wanted to go to Scotland. And she does like a presentation. Like, it's like, you know. That's cool. But it, her rationale was because it is the only country on the planet where their national animal is the unicorn.

Are unicorns real? Girl, the Scottish think so. I was shocked. Take me to Scotland. Yes. So the entire itinerary was to go find the unicorns, the fairies, all kind of woodland creature. You might have to send me that itinerary for my daughter.

It was so good. Oh, we had such a good time. It's so cute. Oh, my God, it was gorgeous. Oh, we went to the castles. We were in the forest. Are the guys hot? Girl, I wouldn't look at it.

No men. Oh, okay. I don't know. What is that relevant to you, Lord? I'm just wondering if, like, what the aesthetic is. I know, right? Maybe that will be like our plan when she's a little older. Could you imagine if I was over here, like, okay, we're going to, are the girls hot? You'd be like, what's going to go.

I'm just wondering for the audience's sake. Right. They want to know. They're wondering. You know what? I bet they are. You know, they like be outside. They're, you know, like, I feel like they are probably rugged.

Rugged. That's what I would assume. We like rugged. Yes. Why did you decide to open up about your fertility? journey. Was that again a choice? Yeah. Oh, yeah. That was a very big choice. Gosh, there's so many reasons. But I think the main one is that, again, sort of overcoming

ideas of shame, you know, that like I've already broached the topic of widowhood and trying to tear down the shame that comes along with it. And infertility is another one. It's a really, really big one. I've had more response to this vulnerability than probably anything else I've ever talked about. So many people who've been like, thank you so much for saying this out loud. I went through this myself. I didn't tell a soul. You know, there's so much shame in it because people feel like if you're a woman, that's what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to just naturally get pregnant. I'm like, girl, I never had an easy pregnancy in my life. You know, it's like my mom had four daughters just like that. You know, her mom had

five just like that. Like there's the women in my family give birth easily. And so I had difficult pregnancies and then found myself in a situation, you know, where it's like I didn't have a partner and I wanted more kids, but, you know, didn't want to do it without one. Finally found my person again and I want a family with him. But I am old. And it doesn't come natural. And so I've got to put in the extra effort to get pregnant. And there shouldn't be any shame in that. But also the people who are judgmental, who I can totally understand why people don't want to share this type of stuff. You know, folks will tell you all kind of things. Like, you're too old to do it. Why would you want to put your body through that? Shouldn't you get a surrogate? Why don't you adopt? I'm like,

it's not any of your goddamn business what I do with my body. It's a lot of opinions. But then on the flip side, the amount of people who've been like, God, like, thank you so much because it is difficult, it is lonely, and it is sad. And on a recent episode, I talked about how, you know, we were able to fertilize two eggs. They became embryos, but then didn't make it to the blast stage. And I, in my confessional, I said that it felt like grief to me. It felt like we lost babies. And the amount of responses I got. People were like, I couldn't articulate it that way before. And people told me not to be sad because they weren't real kids. And I was just like, oh my God. Like this is why I share it because it's not that I'm braver than other people. It's just that I want to get rid of all

of this shame that we have around so many identities that I happen to have. And I'm like, we don't need to be ashamed of that. Has this been almost therapeutic and liberating for you to share all this? Yeah, for sure. I would think so. It's like it almost feels like refreshing for you. Yeah, because I also, I also don't want to, I don't believe in hiding the things in our lives that are hard. When I was leaving or when I was in my job at Netflix, right before I left, I was writing my book, my memoir. And every publisher wanted me to write that like, how to get to the corporate, the corner office in heels, you know, how to be a boss chick. And I was like, I'm not writing that book. You know, I might one day, but I'm not writing it now.

I wanted to write the book about my grief and my loss because I was like, look, yes, you can have all of these things that can knock you down and make you feel like you can never make it, but you can. Like, that's the story I want you to know. I want you to know that like even as a leader, you can be empathetic. You can show people the hard stuff and the messy stuff and still be able to command, you know, because it's like, As a leader, you're expected to be so fierce. Like, you're supposed to know every answer, immovable. But it's like, look, we're human too. We're dealing with little kids that get sick, and therefore you can't make it to the meeting on time.

We're dealing with breakups that break your heart and make you not want to get up in the morning. We're dealing with fights with your mom that make you frustrated about the choices you've made in life. Like, we're dealing with a lot of stuff. So we should all be more open about it. I think one of the reasons I have wanted you on this show for so bad. I really have.

I think I've harassed you a couple of times in your DMs. But what I like about you as a viewer is that you're very comfortable and you're masculine, but you're also really comfortable in your feminine. Yeah. And you don't see that a lot. You either see one or the other. Right. And for me, what I like watching you is I feel like you're such a boss.

But then you also, in your relationship, you are feminine. Yes. At home, you're feminine. You're all about your homemaker. Yes. Oh, absolutely. I relate to that. Yes. I really related to that. It's refreshing. How do you balance both of those things so well? Yeah. Well, I really love it. You know, like, I love making a home. And I think, again, like, I feel like this is a recurring theme about shame. I don't know how we got here, but here we are. You know, is that, like, again, it's like if you're, you know, a boss chick and you're strong, somehow you can't be soft. You can't be vulnerable. You know, you can't do the things that, you know, are considered traditional at home. Because God forbid, you're a feminist and you also like to bake. You know what I'm saying? Like, why can't we do both? Why can't I ask my man if he wants something to eat and me make it? Like, I enjoy that. And that is okay. Like, and he does other things for me. It's all right.

Like we can do both things. And so for me, there is no shame in accepting the fact that I am a homemaker. And I also happen to have had quite a few CMO jobs. I can be both of those things. I relate to it. I love it. I'm like, I'm not a trad wife, but I'm trad. Tradish.

Tradish. And I love it. My home is like so important to me. But I also have a lot of ambition. Yeah. I like to have my cake and eat at times. Come up with a new term, tradish. Tradish.

Trattish. I think we should, we should. Girl, do something with that. No, wait, hold on. Is it on brand? Should I pitch it to on brand? I see what you did there. I see what you did.

But I mean, I look at this and I like that I have a strong woman that chasing her ambition and her career and all those things. But at the same time, like sometimes in the bedroom or in the house, I don't want that all the time. Same way as maybe she wouldn't want me to be super feminine all the time. Right. Yeah. You should have the balance of things. You are so feminine about your hair, so that's enough for me.

Well, that's incredible. It's enough for me. It is good hair, though. Oh, you think so, too. It's really, really good. But, no, I think, you know, there's sometimes a narrative, especially these days, pushed on men and women that you have to be one or the other. And I think it's harmful. Oh, it's very harmful.

Yeah. And I think in a relationship, people can't ignore evolution. Yeah. Like, we did evolve living as man and wife in a certain kind of way. I'm not saying it has to be... I also want you to go out and kill the tiger and drag it back to me. Exactly. I also want you to jump in front of me.

There's some sort of assailant. Yeah, if someone breaks into the house, I'm like, Lord, grab him. Absolutely not. You better go down there. Go see what's going on. Yeah. And so I think, you know, sometimes, and again, we get these conversations pop up on the show all the time. And, you know, people bash the trad wife and then they bash.

Oh, Lord. Yeah. Yeah. But everyone be who they are. Exactly. And that's my point is that I don't think there is. is a bashing of one or the other. I think also because I grew up in a household where my mom was a homemaker, you know, she decided to give up her career to be a wife and to raise four kids. And she was

phenomenal at it, you know, and I have a lot of respect for that. I don't think she, like, wasted her life or like, oh, my gosh, she could have been the CEO of this company or she could have done that. Like, I think she is incredible at what she did. Oh, and so I have so much respect for that, that how could I see that as a bad thing in myself? Yeah. You know? There's like some people grow up and look at that and it's kind of like there's like a self-loathing. Oh, right.

Right. And I think that's harmful. Yeah. Speaking earlier on your ambition in the early days of your career, what were you chasing? Like was it the financial security? Yeah. Was it the title? Was it the control?

What was your early ambition? What did it look like? I think my early, early, early ambition was power. You know, I wanted to be in charge. I didn't like feeling like people didn't respect me. It happened so often. That's so honest. Just like a little chip on the shoulder.

I wanted power. Yeah. Because like so many times I was dismissed. Right? Or like, you know, you're in a meeting and you have an idea and somebody talks over you. Or they ignore your idea and then somebody else says it and then they start praising that person. Oh man. It happened so often.

So I wanted power. Because I was like, I need to be the one when I walk in the room. I need the room to shift to me. And when did you first feel you had that power? Oh. That's a very hard question because I think I've had to fight for it at every stage. But you've done some things that are gnarly. Like you said you had a podcast with Katie Couric.

Yeah. You are doing a show with Jimmy Fallon. Yeah. And the CMO of Netflix is not a small hole. Yeah. But I mean, not to read your whole bio here, but you've been. You've been at Endeavor, IMG, UFC, this universe. You've been obviously at Netflix, at Pepsi.

Did you go on and on? Did you hang out with Dana White? No, I didn't. Oh. I did not. I like him. He's very charismatic. Yes.

He was on the show. We had fun with him. Oh, was he? He had fun with him. Yeah. No, he's so charismatic. I didn't get a chance to hang out with him. I feel like you two would be fun.

Oh, my God. I'm sure, because he's a little crazy also. But I mean, when you list out all of your accomplishments, I mean, you can go on and on. And so it's interesting to hear you say that there was not like a moment where you felt. No. I think I've had. feelings of power, but it is probably also what has driven my ambition to go again and again and again and again is that I haven't felt like I have achieved it. And so I'm always searching for it.

And I think at some point also it switched to a combination of money and power. You know, it's like it's why I talked to so many women about raises and promotions and, you know, how to negotiate. I did an interview once with Gail King where I think on air she asked me how she could ask for a race. And I was literally like, girl, you better. How does someone ask for a raise?

Yeah, first of all, you... McKenzie's in the room. How does McKenzie ask for a race? McKenzie, first of all, let me tell you something, okay? You understand the landscape of what everybody makes in the industry, okay? And then you beat that by 30%. All right, let's move on to the next segment. And that is what you ask for.

That is your target. You don't back down from that. It means that when you ask, you go another 20% higher so that you can back down to the 30%. Mackenzie would probably get it because she's great. She's one of my favorites. But you also have to be able to back it up. Don't be a dummy out here and then be asking for 50% rates. You see what I'm saying?

Oh, sometimes people do. What's going on with that? Yeah. I want to act. There's an appropriate amount. When you go to past your mark, what does that look like? Well, here's the thing is that you, that's what I'm saying. You've got to be worth your salt.

Right. So, and don't, don't play yourself, okay? This takes a lot of honesty with self before you go up in there. Now, a lot of people, no, a lot of women suffer from undervaluing themselves. And so they're actually overqualified because as a leader, I can tell you, the more men came into my office to ask for raises than women hands down, probably three to one. Wow. Also, by the time the woman came to ask for a raise, she was way past her qualifications for it.

I mean, men would come in there, had worked there three days, hadn't learned a goddamn thing, and would be like, oh, you know, I think I deserve 25% more. Get your ass back in your office. What you're doing in here? What are you even talking about? And so it's like, I mean, women undervalued themselves so much. So first, it's like you really do have to have the honest, honest, honest, honest conversation.

How am I performing in this job? And how do you get, I mean, I'm going to do this as an employer I'm going to have the conversation with you two ways. So if somebody comes to you and they say, listen, I feel undervalued and I want X amount, what are the things that you're telling them to get them to be honest with themselves about what their real value is? And then you as the boss making the decision, what is the pushback or feedback you're doing? Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, it's like, if I'm the boss, right, I probably know what

the job requirements are. And I understand whether or not you've met them. So first of all, you shouldn't come to me unless you believe that you are, exceeding those expectations. Because if you're not, I will tell you that you're not. And then you're probably going to go home and cry. You know what I mean? That's playing yourself right there. Yes, you are playing yourself. Yeah. So it's like if you're coming to me as, you know, the employee and saying, hey, look, I'm, I feel undervalued here because I'm hitting this mark and that mark and that mark. By the way, you have to come with like real examples.

You can't just say I feel I'm undervalued. No, come with tactical, like examples of how you think you over delivered. And it can't be one time. It can't be two times. It can be three times. It has to be consistent over time. And then you can come and say, hey, look, I'm overperforming here. I keep doing the thing that you told me to do. And I add 15% effort to it. I am beating every key performance indicator you've said. So I believe I deserve a race. What if someone comes to and they say, I've been here for two years? And you probably did nothing. Well, I don't. I'm like, What you're saying is that being somewhere for two years doesn't equate to a raise. No, absolutely.

Ten-year does not mean you get paid more. So you have to add extra value to the company to get the rate. Got it. So impact over 10-year. Kim Kardashian got shit for saying you got to work. You're like right. Everyone said people don't want to work. And I think I get what she's saying.

Not everybody, but I get what she's saying. Yeah. Well, there was a moment in time where like the, you know, I think people were not being honest with themselves. No, they were not requests for coaching. And I, you know, as somebody who's had to work for a long time and, you know, build things and use yourself, I think the hardest conversations are when people come and say, like, I'm working, and it's what you're saying. I've been here, but there's no examples. And I put in the time. And what I have to go back and say, and I'm sure you've got is, well, give me an example of how you're contributing in a way that.

Yes. Show me how you're making impact. Above and beyond the job qualifications. Doing the job alone is not enough to get a race. It really is not. You have to exceed the expectations. So I'm like, you're doing the job description. Congratulations. You get a paycheck. You want a bigger paycheck? You got do bigger. Branch basics, I don't know what I would do, what we would do without this company. We have been talking for years, close to a decade now, or actually it's been a decade, about health and wellness and how to take care of ourselves. What if I were to tell you that the way you're cleaning your home could also potentially be harming you? Well, that's if you're using toxic chemical hormone disrupting cleaning supplies, which many people are.

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Well, it was, I think it's a little, It was a little different for me because I found that I couldn't necessarily get big raises the way I wanted them. Like I said, at some point, my ambition changed from just power to also money. I wanted exponential raises. And I couldn't get it at the places I were. So I had to quit and get another job. That's a good segment. I had one thing on our notes that I wanted to talk to you about.

You've been at a lot of places, but you've kept a really good reputation. and people speak very highly of you in your career from what we've learned. How have you maintained that? Because sometimes people leave a job in a messy way and they bring bridges. And it seems like you've been able to kind of move throughout your career without doing that.

Yeah. Well, I'll tell you this. I think one of the biggest examples of the fact that I do have a good reputation is that I haven't used a resume in about 15 years. Wow. You know, it's like nobody asked me for that. That's a flex.

Yeah. When Ted Sarando said, Netflix called and said, hey, you know, we were thinking about changing our CMO and we would like, he didn't say, can I see your resume? You know what I'm saying? It was that he had, he had heard and seen the impact I'd had at Endeavor with Ari Emanuel and was like, hey, we actually need your talent here. And for me, it's always been about proving the fact that my value is more than whatever

the company is asked me to do. So I have embodied what I am telling people to do. It's like if the job is to come in and change the way people use the word Uber, I'm going to come and make it a colloquialism. With all the powerful people that you've worked with, who has had the most impact on you? Who are the ones where you're like, damn, that person taught me ABCD? I think without Spike Lee, I don't know that I would have known early on how impactful I am. you know so spike was my first boss I was an assistant at his ad agency in New York City and I was taking a break between undergraduate school and medical school because I'd

taken the MCAT I was going to become a doctor and I know and I went to New York and I my parents were not going to fund this so I had to get a job I was Spike Lee's assistant and he was pitching the PepsiCo business through his advertising agency because he was in between like his movie director roles, he was shooting commercials. So he was pitching PepsiCo as a client and asked around the office, you know, who should be the, you know, main person, who should be the spokesperson. And people were going up on billboard charts and trying to find, you know, the hottest actress and this and that. And I had seen Carmen, the hip opera on MTV. It was a TV movie starring Beyonce Knowles and Mackay Fyfer.

And Beyonce at the time was coming out of Destiny's Child. She wants to be a solo act and an actress. And she was getting panned. I mean, people were like, she's never going to make it. Like, you know, the only successful solo artist coming out of a girl group, Diana Ross. That's it.

That is it. Wow. The only person. And so she was getting hammered. And I saw this movie and I was like, holy she like I loved it and I loved her in it and so when Spike was asking around I said I saw this TV movie starring Beyonce Noles and people were snickering and laughing you know and just like she's the assistant she didn't even know her better and Spike was like I'm going to talk to her and he had a

meeting with her and decided she was the one and if not for that moment I don't think I would have understood that tenure doesn't equate your power. You know, that I was 23 years old. And I gave him the idea to use her. That's a good story. Girl. That's a good story. I feel like we could talk to you.

We could talk to you for hours and you got to come back at some point. I know. Well, now that I know you had wanted me here, I'm like, I'll come back whenever you want. Wait, we have to stop. Well, because she's got to, she's got to stop. She's got to, yeah. Oh, I can keep going. We have a million.

We have a million? I will, actually. You could come back. Honestly. I would love that. We didn't even tell part two. We didn't even get into Uber and Apple and a million things. I got some stories.

Boy? But anyways. Will you come back? Yes, actually, I will. I would love to come back. Tell us, you have to tell us, though, before you go. You have to tell us why you chose to join Housewives. Oh, yes.

Because that was strategic, I think, and I want to know why. And then what's going on with Onbrand with Jimmy Fallon. Yes. Okay, okay. So here's the thing. when I left Netflix, it was really, really tough. Again, I think people look at my resume and just like, oh, my God, I'll just teach it moves.

And I'm like, no, people booed me at every single move. I promise you, they were not supportive. And I know it's hard to believe, but it is so true. Because if we had time, I would get into the details of like what was happening at the time and why people were booing me, moving into a new job. So when I was leaving Netflix, the decision was because I was writing my book and it was so heavy. And I knew that I couldn't do that and also be the global chief marketing officer of Netflix. It was a huge job and I needed all my energy and attention.

But I really wanted to write this book. And the day that Ted and I had our meeting and decided that I would leave, I cried. It was so scary. But I left. I wrote my book. I published it. And then I was sitting there in my house after it was published. And I was like, oh, shit, now what?

Like, there's nothing. That's what am I going to do? I need another job. So I went out on the market, you know, got interviews, came down to, you know, a last interview where it's like I'd already cleared everybody. I just need to meet the board. The offer was already in my inbox and my lawyers. I was sitting there the next day, I had take a flight the next day to go meet the board. And I could not do it.

I was like, I don't think I want to go back into this world. I just, I've been out now a year. And while it felt like sabbatical, I was like, I don't think I want to do it. And I, again, I cried and it was so scary because I'm a single mom. I take care of my parents. I have three homes. Like, I need money. You know what I'm saying?

And so you have good taste. The homes all dialed out. Look, okay? I know. It takes money to do these things. Yeah. The monthly nuts not going away. Look, okay, and I got lots of stock, but damn.

So I was sitting there and thinking, I can't go back. I don't want to go back. but I was so scared not to, but I knew I really couldn't take the job. And so I declined even before going to meet the board, much to my mother's anger. That's another story for another time. Yeah, next time you come back, you can tell that story. And I was sitting in my home for, I would say, like, three months, you know, a little depressed, considering the stupid decision I'd made to turn down that job, figuring out like, is it like

embarrassing for me to go back out and say, hey, look, anybody else want a CMO? You know? And I got a email. And it was from the Bravo executives. And they said, you know, we've been trying to get you for many years, but never able to because you always had jobs. And now we hear that you are out and you are potentially not going back. So would you consider coming on the show?

And I was like, absolutely not. Because you couldn't take the job when you were running Netflix. No, I couldn't have done the show then. No. And matter of fact, the funny thing is I thought they wanted me to become the CMO of Bravo. Like, I didn't think they wanted me on the damn show. You know, like I thought they were calling me for like an executive job. Realized it was the show.

Were you excited? I was nervous. Yeah. Because I thought, you know what? Like, I'm a champion of women. I love being able to empower them. I don't want to go on TV and fight with people. You know?

But my thought, after I sat with it for some time, was it like, but this narrative doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be this. You're sort of the voice of reason. Right. It's not, I don't, I don't, when I look at you on the show, I'm not like, oh, she's causing fights. No.

You keep it. I don't want to do that. Lively and we get the dynamics. Yes, yes, yes. But you're kind of the voice of reason. I don't want to fight with women on TV. I feel like there's kind of a, like with the audience where you're going. Yeah, because I'm like, girl, do you see what's going on?

That's what I'm saying to people. Because the thing is, and I recently did a video about this where I was talking about conflict, right? And I was like, you know what? The thing for me that was most pressing when I was thinking about joining the show was I was like, look, women of this age are so damn interesting. But we don't get a chance to really see them because Hollywood loves to show us, you know, women in their teens and 20s. maybe 30s. But by the time you are in your 40s or 50s, sure, let me tell you, it's a very interesting time. You're raising kids, you got aging parents, you've got dynamics in your marriage, you, maybe you're

coming out of it, maybe you're getting into your third one, you know, like, there's so much going on. Beyond, before you get to talk about your relationship with your girlfriends, some of whom you know in a long time, some of who you're making new friends, who makes new friends when you think. If you actually think about at this age or range as much more. Your team's going to kick in the door. Yeah, that's right. But we're going to keep going.

Yeah. Because, like, there's so much that, like, is happening at this time. And so when I thought about that, that's actually what convinced me to go on the show. Like, I was like, I want to show that. Like, I had, and at the time, there was so much happening in my life. And I'm like, but I want to see stories like this, too. And where are the baddies at? We're the ones who have a corporate career who made their money, who didn't marry into

We're the ones who are like, you know, like falling in love again. But where are they? Like as a practitioner, we on Beverly Hills specifically, where is the where we want, we needed that energy. Yes. Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. And that is why just full circle here when I said that like you should walk into room or into

matter and know that your molecule changes it. That's what I am doing. Mike drop. Damn. We could talk to you for hours now. Where can we go watch On Brand with Jimmy Fallon? On Brand with Jimmy Fallon is so great. Just a real quick story on that.

The people who poo-pooed me for joining Housewives who are like, but you're in the Marketing Hall of Fame, how dare you go and ruin your reputation? Well, Nancy, who is Jimmy's wife, is a big fan of Beverly House. And she saw the very first episode that I was on. Jimmy, unbeknownst to me, had already sold the show to NBC and was trying to find a co-host, and he couldn't find one. For a year, he was looking and interviewing a bunch of CMOs but couldn't find the magic between someone who has the chops and also is good on TV.

And then they saw me. And that is how Jimmy and I got together. Volucule that entered the on-brand with Jimmy Fallon. Thank you for coming on the show. You really can come back. That was fun.